Mark:

How are you, my friend?

Justin:

I’m well.

Mark:

I’m glad to hear it.

Justin:

Very well. I’m happy to s feel it getting a little warmer.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. I that’s a that’s a good clarification.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Well done.

Justin:

Yeah, ’cause it dipped it dipped a little cool for me

Mark:

to

Justin:

be in spring. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Those days in Minnesota. Minnesota.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

They’re uh

Justin:

Well for me it’s it was the cold is one But the fact that the plants

Mark:

all started to

Justin:

kind of bud and bloom and little tiny leaves that look like they wouldn’t hurt a fly, you know. And you’re like brace yourselves.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s gonna get cold.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I don’t think it got below freezing, which was

Mark:

Notice it did, not like a couple weekends ago when I got twenty seven or so, yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations. So, you know, happy point They are okay.

So all is well.

Justin:

Yes. Mowed the lawn for the first time. First time this year, this weekend.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Good weekend.

Mark:

Yeah. Little lightning storm. I’m starting to green things up.

Justin:

Yeah. Exactly.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

How was your weekend?

Mark:

It was good. It was busy but good.

Justin:

What did you do Sunday?

Mark:

What did I do Sunday?

Justin:

Sunday afternoon around 3 p. m.

Mark:

I had a wonderful afternoon on Sunday with uh you folks and my wife recording a podcast.

Justin:

That’s right. That was fun.

Mark:

That was fun.

Justin:

It was our first guest podcast.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And uh we thought it was fitting, right, to to have our wife.

Mark:

Just have that glimpse. Yeah, and it was good. It was good.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be interesting to try and edit it because uh it’ll be my first time trying to combine two feeds of audio into one.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh you know, I’m no a pro at this thing. This is as you’ve seen, I just drop a few clips. Like this is all uh a learning curve. But yeah

Mark:

Our audience will not be surprised that we went over a sixty minute time frame, probably. You know, so that’s that’s the need for the editing is we just went over our uh

Justin:

typical time

Mark:

our allotted time and yeah kicked us off and we had to restart again

Justin:

that’s right so it turns out there’s a 30 minute time limit if you record from the website.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Anchor website. And there’s an hour time time limit if you record from the Anchor app. So now we know both of those things. Which is really, really good.

Mark:

Exactly. It’s good to know.

Justin:

It is good to know.

Mark:

Unfortunately we found out the hard way both times.

Justin:

That’s what we like to do, Mark. This is how we do it. This is how we see it.

Mark:

Yeah. This is how we talk it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Too long sometimes.

Justin:

It’s actually it’d be interesting to hear uh if anyone’s out there tap tap uh you know what they think about in terms of longer episodes Once in a while. Like guests. Because I I have a hunch that guests episodes will be longer. Well, at least the the recorded bit will be longer. Um partly because um Um I think it would be difficult to rein you know, rain a conversation between three people or four people or whatever into into that forty minute slot. But also I I don’t necessarily I wouldn’t necessarily want to do that because there might be some good stuff that

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

squeaks out at the end or in the beginning or whatever.

Mark:

Once you find your rhythm stuff.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think that was kind of what I noticed on Sunday, you know, as a little ladies were in here with us, you know, it’s yeah, it’s foreign.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then, you know, it doesn’t take long and you find a rhythm. You know, and everybody starts kind of opening up in their you know express in their uh in their verbalization as well as their you know body posture you know it’s like yeah it was interesting interesting to observe.

Justin:

It felt like when we started like uh like we were, you know, forcing them to do this like, what are you making me do? Yes.

Mark:

We’re here because we love you and that’s the only reason.

Justin:

Exactly. Which we appreciate.

Mark:

Oh yeah, it’s very much so.

Justin:

But I do feel like by the end it was like, uh we probably need to stop sometime soon ladies like no

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

uh no it was it was good they were they they were willing to chat and yeah and it was great to have ’em so

Mark:

it was and it was fun uh as we as we talked about future episodes and you know, just kind of that that vision type dynamic that was fun to be able to do and have their uh have their imp Yeah. So it’s interesting because even as we talked about the possibility of this week, there was definitely some intrigue. You wanna you wanna Introduce uh Mr. Chesterton.

Justin:

Chesterton? Chesterton. Uh as as in G. G. K. Chesterton, right?

Mark:

Yes. Um

Justin:

so yeah, that you know, he was an author Um do you know how much do you know about him?

Mark:

Very little. I read the you know I’ve read some stuff, some stuff.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I’ll I’ll yeah, I’ll let you go ahead. I mean, there’s a lot of correlation with my profession based on his thoughts, but like you say, I can kind of Yeah.

Justin:

So he yeah, he I mean uh he wrote a ton of stuff, but one thing that he wrote was just some quote about offense and so someone wrote this article um talking about Chesterton’s And um I’ll just, if you don’t mind, I’ll read this little quote by him in this article. Um he G. K. Chesterton says there exists in such a case a certain institution or law, let us say for the sake of simplicity. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, I don’t see the use of this. Let us clear it away. To which the more intelligent type of reformer Performer will do well to answer if you don’t see the use of it. I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you you uh then when you can come back and tell me what tell me that you do oh my goodness then when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it I may allow you to destroy it

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

That’s some funky language there.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What’s your take on that, Mark? Your first thought? Well

Mark:

I have I have a good few. I uh Um I was taken by the fact of his ability to use the fence to represent what he uh shared about in institution or law. So it I and I and I think in our um enlightened or evolved perspectives sometimes we can think those things that came before us are antiquated, outdated, there’s no need for

Justin:

them.

Mark:

So our tendency at times is to just do away with it because of that elevated, I’ll call it arrogant even at times. Thinking that wants to do away with things just for the sake of avoiding restraint.

Justin:

Hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

That’s that’s that’s w

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

in a nutshell what it said. And I think, you know, um There and I I’ll I I’ll even bring it back because he if I’m not trying to steal it from you, but you know he he does a nice job of this the you know first order thinking and second order thinking. And I you know for me as a therapist that’s

Justin:

So go ahead pause right there as a therapist. Yeah. Um the article that we’re referencing is on a blog called Farnum Street blog where they talk a lot about mental models and various things and this particular um article, you know, it’s called it’s Chesterton’s Fence, A Lesson in Second Order Thinking. And so the article is talking about this idea. of second order thinking versus GK Chesterton didn’t write all this stuff. It’s mostly about his one little paragraph and they expounded this article. I just I I wanted to clear that up real quick. But as you talk about ,

Mark:

no, and and and I go ahead as you see, I’m I’m gonna flip it back to you even as you think.

Justin:

Well don’t forget that as a therapist. I will. I I

Mark:

I have that. No problem. We’re good there. Um even in that um How do you see what what difference do you see as you read the article on the difference between first order thinking and second order thinking? And it’s okay if you need a moment to kind of scroll but i I mean am I putting you on the spot too much right there?

Justin:

Yeah I’m actually looking at I wanted to see the exact thing that had here um and if you don’t mind second order thinking is the practice of not just considering the consequences of our decisions but also the consequences of those consequences everyone can manage first order thinking which is just considering the immediate and anticipated result of an action and let’s be honest Mark not not everyone does that even like but it’s simple and quick usually requiring Little effort. By comparison, second-order thinking is more complex and time-consuming. The fact that it is difficult and unusual is what makes the ability to do it. Um such a powerful advantage. Um yeah, he says second order thinking will get you extraordinary extraordinary results.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

And so will learning to recognize when other people are using that second order thinking to which they talk about G. K. Chesterton’s comments.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um yeah, so I mean, what do I I thought I thought that would say it better than than what I could say. But um essentially it’s this idea that I could do a thing in anticipation with uh of what kind of consequences or uh you know every action as equal and opposite reaction, right? Like I can anticipate what that bounce back might look like or whatever, but thinking about what that bounce back might cause.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Right? Like and then and then that after that and after that, you know, that kind of thinking it through in into the future as far as you can, I think can often, you know, like you said, produce much better results. It’s it can be the difference between um having a solid relationship with someone at work or them feeling like you’re always trying to get ahead. It can be the difference between um you know getting what you want out of your kids they’re open obedient, they do what you say, but maybe they leave they fly the coop so to speak, right? And they because you get what you want in the short term, but you’re missing that that second order of consequence. right of

Mark:

like

Justin:

I can I can demand that they do what I say I can enforce this thing but I can’t change their heart and I can’t cause them to understand the reasons for that. And so second order thinking says, well I can get my way now or I can w, you know, I guess compromise or whatever, figure out how to communicate this in a way. um that that can deal with those second order consequences. Sure. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So those are just some of my thoughts. Uh off the cuff since I didn’t know. And then

Mark:

that’s what and I I think and I I’ll come back to that as a therapist, you know, I mean And I th I see them as fairly similar, but you know, we’re i in in my world we’re looking at changes So quite often we’ll refer to first order change and second order change. And I think in some ways it’s kind of similar because first order change is typically Okay, if I don’t quit this, my wife is gonna leave. You follow me? So there’s some kind of pressure. It’s a singular, you know, dynamic. If I don’t quit gambling, let’s say you know my wife’s had it if I don’t stop this there’s this singular pressure that may happen there’s this one consequence so even for the sake of that one consequence i may change but if if my addiction is greater than that impetus for change, I may just say, well, I prefer gambling to being married.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that and so that would be the first order change that didn’t happen. But it but second order change is that process where I’m able to Establish so I see maybe that first order change, but then I go into the second order where I’m able to recognize Oh my goodness. I didn’t realize how gambling was affecting my personal finances. I actually have a savings account now because I quit gambling and now I’m feeling more confident in my ability to make decisions. And I’m not as short with my children because I don’t have this stress and this pressure. And it and it And it it multiplies because I start to see the benefits of this change and it becomes more lasting because there’s greater benefit to it. to it. Does that make sense from a change perspective?

Justin:

It makes perfect sense. You also made me think about too, when you’re only working towards or uh thinking about about that first order what do you say consequence first order

Mark:

change

Justin:

change

Mark:

yes

Justin:

and you achieve that first order change the motivation might stop, right? Like I think this may be what you’re getting at too, but or vice versa, like you remove that one singular obstacle. Like maybe your wife leaves. Oh okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That I was trying to work towards that not happening, but that’s not a thing anymore, so I guess gambling is okay now, right? Or whatever. So again, like having that one singular uh order of change can be problematic in that it might not stick. And I we’ve certainly seen that, you know. You probably in in counseling you’ve probably seen that. I know I’ve seen that in people’s stories and in in in real life in a lot of ways that celebrate recovery of just like once that one singular point of pain disappeared or they addressed it, right? Like they they did they did the thing they were supposed to do. It often wasn’t enough to maintain that change. because you know the further things weren’t recognized or or realized or or valued.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think and and and so that I I see the two as very similar. So when that that first order change, the you know, that pressure may not necessarily be enough. And I think when we’re thinking from that, from we’re when we’re doing first order thinking. I think it’s similar. We’re just making a decision based on a current comfort in the moment. I don’t like this. I don’t want this restraint. I don’t want And so and I and so I think of that, you know, in a in our cultural dynamic and say, I don’t want that, and yet I’m not sure we always go to that second order. thinking and saying okay if I do away with that what else might happen so I I see your gears kind of thinking based on what I said what what comes to mind for you when I think about that Or is there a way you see that?

Justin:

Well, w I one thing I was thinking about is uh um what happened how what I guess this is my question. How many times has has a fence been torn up? only to be put back up.

Mark:

Right?

Justin:

Uh to recognize like, I didn’t want this fence, it’s in my way. Can’t get my truck through, whatever. Take it down. Oh, you know, the coyotes are getting my chickens or whatever. We should put that fence back up, right? Yeah. And recognizing that the inconvenience was worth it for what the benefit of that thing was. And I think until you that’s why he’s saying like until you can go away and figure out why that thing exists, well then you certainly shouldn’t tear it down. down because you don’t know what the trade-offs are. You don’t know what the the pros and cons are yet, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um I do like one quote in there it says um Um Chesterton also alluded to the all-too common belief that previous generations were bumbling fools, stumbling around, constructing fences wherever they fancied.

Mark:

Yes. Yes.

Justin:

Which I really liked. And I thought that was a funny quote, but it’s it’s so true. It’s like um I think each generation probably has their version of the fence where they go, These idiots, they put this fence up and They how did they not how did they not realize we weren’t gonna be b able to drive our truck through here, you know, or whatever. Like how did they, you know, come up with this decision, psha idiots, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We need to remove this, get it out of the way and be done with you know, their bumbling thoughts or whatever. And of course, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. So how have you experienced that? That’s what that’s the part where as you mentioned and you know tearing a fence down, how have you experienced the coyotes coming in to get your chickens?

Justin:

Putting me on the spot. Do you have an answer? I would like to hear your answer.

Mark:

Yeah, I mean I think I I’m not saying yeah in the sense of course I have an answer, but I think there’s uh I think I think there’s uh

Justin:

But

Mark:

well no, I’m really um I think about it in the sense of because I I was thinking about it in law when he said institutions And laws. And I think there are those dynamics. And it’s for me, it’s a personal dynamic. I think when we think about what we’re culturally experiencing about gender confusion

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that that becomes a a fence type dynamic for me. Because I think when when we get sex, sexuality, if I may say so, uh confused with you know a full-on masculinity or what is f yes and and I think you know we’re trying to take down these fences and I’m not saying that parts of fences can’t be removed You fall I mean I you know as you were asking me, I’m not necessarily wanting to go completely down just one rabbit trail, but I think of our nation in um where uh immigration is concerned. You follow me as far as just build a fence, don’t build a fence. you know, take the fence, go around the fence. You know, the so I’m thinking of this in it in its current, you know, um current, the the the ability to be current in a present day, I guess present time. I’m thinking of different fences that I can think about. And I I think from my perspective I am experiencing more and more like gender confusion in younger and younger kids as we’ve kind of decided to do away with the fence You follow me? And that that’s those are the kind of things that are coming to my mind. It’s not a desire to necessarily go on a soapbox type thing in this, but that is how I see it. as far as, you know, this heightened awareness that we need to do away with, you know, him and her and and and pronouns, you know, that whole confusion and what that yeah, how that has a you you talked about your daughter going to a dance, you know, and I can recognize that yeah, there’s there’s certain pressure That go along with each sex, male, female. You know, and I I don’t want to I wanna be careful because I think when we throw away male and female in general, are quite often our desire to do so um comes from a confusion regarding femininity or masculinity.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah, I do.

Mark:

And I’m not because I I think that’s where people, that’s where the desire to tear down the fence comes from. Is because you know

Justin:

Well, because we talked about, you know, a lot of this when we talked about gender a few weeks ago and Essentially there are obviously some like with every fence there’s inconvenience or or or there’s there’s things about it that can be why is this fence here, right? Like Like e that you look at and go, This is broken and we shouldn’t have it here or it should be done differently and um you know, even in gender we talked about how there are certain ways you know, toxic masculinity for instance, um that you look at it and go, yeah, this this is broken. Like and yet to look at it and go, this is broken, therefore we should pull the whole whole thing out and be done with it. You know, that’s kind of weird. Yeah, exactly. I think that’s probably a uh yeah, another word for Chesterton’s fence, right? It’s the same idea.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um said a little bit differently. Um, but yeah, so I just yeah, we don’t want to give away too much of our gender episode either. That’s uh

Mark:

yeah no that and but it’s all good but still being able to recognize that and I and I and I do think it’s an arrogance

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

that tends to lead to they had it they had it they had it all wrong if only they knew what I was thinking and in reality that that is kind of a first order thinking It’s like you just do this and it’s all good.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

When we don’t necessarily and it and I think, you know. In a in a lot of things that plague, you know, our government or our society in some ways, you know, that’s kind of a fundamental dynamic. We don’t always think about it far enough in advance and recognize the ramifications of what we want to do out of convenience. I think I I think of e d even for me right now, I think of, you know, gas prices. You know, and it’s this isn’t a complaint, but I I think about it, it’s like I think about our forefathers and it’s like, would they still be paying, would they, would they be doing something different? You know, because it we went up to four bucks and now we’re excited when it dropped to 367, you know, because at least we’re not paying four bucks. But in retrospect, months ago we were at two, but now we’re excited to pay $367 because it’s not four bucks. And I and I think about that in a sense of okay, what are the ramifications of just continuing continuing to I’m not saying throw it out but I’m saying I do think about it with this in mind. It’s like okay what made that drop in price and I’m happy if the fact that we’re looking at the Ukraine and you know there was more volatility there or something like that that led to this uncertainty that created this spike in fuel price, you know, and yet there’s also a part of me that’s thinking and saying, okay, is this lower fuel price a benefit of, you know um the government using the the fuel reserves to basically create this lower price so that people are more satisfied with what’s going on. You know, these are the kind of things that go through my mind while I’m filling up my truck at the pump. It’s a beep that ‘s

Justin:

a pump.

Mark:

Yes, this is how crazy Mark is, but that’s you know, it’s those those are the things that I tend to think about. And uh I’m not saying other people don’t have those same thoughts, but I guess that’s my desire in this time. is to be able to say, okay, yeah, how am what am I doing on a daily basis that I am doing out of impulse or just a desire uh to have change and maybe not necessarily thinking about from its long-term possibilities or implications to a certain degree.

Justin:

Which just this ties into the previous conversation. we had about changing our minds as well, which is you know, my thought too is sometimes you you do see a fence, you do think it’s worth taking down, you start taking down and midway through the removal recognize, oh like I said, coyotes are getting through or whatever it is.

Mark:

And

Justin:

we we often have the opportunity to to stop what we’re doing and change, right? go the other direction. So I probably should put this back up.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Or whatever, but um there’s this concept called sunk cost fallacy. Have you heard of that?

Mark:

I have

Justin:

It’s this idea that like once you’ve already invested a little bit, well you gotta go all the way because you are you there’s a sunk cost involved and so you you’re already invested and if you back out the other direction you’re gonna lose lose more than if you continue forward. But the problem is if you continue forward i the wrong direction you will lose more. But sure but we but we have this tendency humans just in general to go once you start a thing you gotta finish it, you gotta to move forward and again so using that fence analogy it’s like well I already started taking the fence down and it’s you know half of it’s in shambles So I’m just gonna finish taking it down. We’ll figure out the coyotes later.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And um I I think that ties into even what you’re saying. you know, fuel prices, whatever. Electric vehicles is a good example of like let’s replace the fence with an electric fence.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Right? Um, which is great for a lot of things, but do we know the implications there? Do we have understand that and I I you know I also think about fuel prices and I you know my armchair thoughts you know how I see it is that I do think the production of electric vehicles triggered some of those lower prices that we had because there’s recognition of like, oh, there’s an end in sight potentially to the this so we can we can’t charge what we used to, right? And um you know, and then obviously things happen or whatever. But of course there’s danger there as well in the sense of once we completely shift over Right, to electric vehicles. Will all of our waste be gone? Like we will no longer have waste. We’ll no longer have um climate damaging anything, right? Which if you’ve read anything, you know there are implications to battery recycling, you know, all this stuff. Like there’s a lot of issues on that side as well. Same with like um you know wind power, right? Like you know, that’s that’s a good idea. It’s harnessing nature’s power. and turning it into electricity, but then we also know it kills birds, right? Like a lot of birds. Like more than you would think. And so we’re trading one form for another and expecting there to be no Second order consequences.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And there are. There are always because the the reason that we do what we do was established through a course of several, you know, iterations, right? And so what we arrived at was the trade-off that we recognize as being the most valuable at the time. Of course that doesn’t mean that won’t ever change. And I think that’s ridiculous to say a fence should never come down. And I don’t think that’s what this point is either. It’s about understanding why it was there in the first place before you start dismantling so that when the you understand the trade-offs and you’re willing to accept them.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And I’m not sure we always think far enough ahead sometimes to recognize what the trade-offs might be.

Justin:

Yeah, and in something, you know, like as global as what we’re talking about, fuel and electric field. vehicles or whatever. I mean it’s sometimes second order thinking isn’t enough.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Fi fifth order, sixth or like there’s implications that are gonna occur far into the future by by massive reworking of certain systems, which again, I’m not saying they shouldn’t be reworked, but I I think there’s a lot of and I also think people are obviously thinking through those things. Not everyone.

Mark:

Well, and that’s where I guess as as you were as you were talking there, I think about it too. I think there’s a difference between the ability to think constantly consequences through and I also think there’s a difference between the ability to promote an agenda.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think you know sometimes Fences can get in the way of an agenda. So I’m just gonna take them down, period, because they’re in my way. And I I’m not sure that’s always a healthy way. way to look at life or global dynamics even from that perspective.

Justin:

I actually was thinking about it at you know the agenda thing, you know, even with the fuel or the electric vehicles and all that stuff and how like yeah I think this is kind of what you’re getting at once a decision Is made about a direction, it’s like, well, we gotta put all of our resources into that

Mark:

and

Justin:

and and enforce that this direction is continued on.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um I think it It’s uh I think that is very problematic for so many reasons.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

I also recognize that same thing happened even in small the small scales that I’m involved in where I think about at work for instance and you know several you know I’ve a cr crew of like eight of us and we’ll come up with a decision to try and make things more efficient, right? Or better for some th for someone and and we’ll decide on a thing. Sometimes it’s not my decision, but I enforce it because I’m like, well, this guy was very smart and you know, he feels strongly about this. Let’s go with this. Let’s try it. And so I’ll find myself trying to enforce this agenda for a period of time. But it’s not just because I believe in that agenda.

Mark:

Sure, I think.

Justin:

It’s because I believe in the cohesiveness of our team. I believe in consistency. I I believe in um that person having value and trusting that they know what they’re talking about. Like there’s so many pieces to quote unquote that agenda.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That aren’t just the single decision of whether whether it’s it’s the best thing or not.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so the reverse course touches all of those other things. Not just the singular subject that we’re talking about. Like, oh yeah, we shouldn’t do that because it didn’t work out. out. It’s like there there’s some implications that come with that. Well now that team member might feel slighted or feel like they whatever. And of I’m not saying again you shouldn’t reverse course. I think there’s but all of those things are second order consequences as well of reversing your decision. Now those have to be dealt with and planned.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. Um and that’s like on very a very small scale. And so you think about like when when the US decides to put their weight into electric vehicles, all the implications, the relationship That are built, right? The relationships that are strained as a result of this decision. And then talking about reversing course, I think often is that sunk cost thing of Like, well, I know this is hard, but going back that direction is gonna be so much harder to get back to where we are reverse course and will make us look like bumbling idiots and You know, you y it’s not that hard to understand how once you get a certain level deep into something, why it would just continue to go that direction.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Which we’re you know, at this point we’re kinda getting away from the original premise of the fence thing, but I think it all ties in, you know.

Mark:

No, and I and I think that’s where yeah, ’cause they they and even in that article they meant mentioned hierarchy, biz hierarchy and business and businesses that have, you know, a a model to, you know, remove hierarchy or no hierarchy. And you know, and that the confusion that creates. And I think that’s what that’s what elicited, you know, how we see confusion in a lot of ways, you know, when there is is just this you do what you want to do as you want to do it type mentality I guess is is where I’m at and I’m not saying that’s um everyone I’m just saying those are the areas that I see where the fence makes a difference. And I think like you’re saying, you can do away with the fence, but at the same time, if you’re doing away with it just for the sake of doing a way with it, you might m reap some you there might be consequences that you’re not aware of. And I think uh to um On your point, I think pride at times keeps us

Justin:

from

Mark:

from pride have wants us to tear down the fence. Regardless

Justin:

that it wants us to be right when the coyotes come.

Mark:

When the coyotes come, it’s like what coyotes? Did me take it down this fence, create these kind of No, no, no, no, no. This wasn’t my and I think that’s where leadership has and we’ve talked about that before, I don’t want to be redundant, but I think that’s where good leadership Is able to say, okay, I made a mistake here. I trusted the smart guy.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And it it didn’t go well.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But at the same time, that’s not to say that he’s not a smart guy. Still. And and at the same time, we need to course correct.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And that’s where your job is at that point to be able to say, yeah, and you can second guess, but at the same time, I’m seeing these indicators that say this wasn’t a good thing. And we can turn back around and we can recognize that yes uh even even like you said earlier, you know, maybe the electric car led to some of that. Maybe there was a self-sufficiency factor, you know, as what we produce, you know, were able to have more control over that and there’s a stability there to where when you know world events happen it doesn’t create such a spike.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, because they’re and I’m not saying it’s always about self-confidence. But yeah, I think that it that does become a part of it to a certain degree. And I think in some ways that’s kind of like that second order change. It’s like Like I can see the benefits of this need for change. And yes, you may second guess me for a while, but ultimately I’m sensing that, you know And I’m seeing based on these facts that this wasn’t a good choice, and I can step back from that. What was it, the first one you said when you continue on with something? You know, when you continue on with something even though it was a bad idea, you had a name.

Justin:

Oh yeah, yeah. Sunk cost fallacy.

Mark:

Sunk cost fallacy. Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

See, I’m learning from you. I I I uh but yeah. Because I think about that. And I and I and here again, that’s not to say that some fences don’t need to be removed. Number one, myself, I’m probably too cheap because I don’t want to have to rebuild build a fence at today’s cost.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure. Would would prices mean what they are?

Mark:

Let’s live with that fence for a little while longer just as it is.

Justin:

But

Mark:

I think there again that can be it’s like can can we put a gate in the fence?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Can we you know I don’t think it’s always about tearing the entire

Justin:

But back to their premise which it requires second order thinking to go, oh maybe not tear it down, maybe fence or maybe leave it. You know, those decisions really should be made till you’ve exhausted what you can know about the current structure. Um but um yeah so you you mentioned the company’s thing and I wanted to talk uh just found in that a little bit. This they talked about um hierarchy free companies. Um this idea of you know there’s kind of a loose hierarchy in people may have a title like m you know uh uh cat herder

Mark:

right like

Justin:

the joke

Mark:

is that in the article I didn’t see that

Justin:

no it’s not but I’ve seen that role in cute company companies, right? Where it’s like where you have a hierarchy-free company or whatever, you know, just the idea of like they’re kind of generally supposed to be in charge or whatever, but really it’s They don’t want to convey that idea of hierarchy or structure. They want there to be a feeling of uh uh you know, everyone’s smart. Everyone’s smart, everyone’s equal, everyone can make smart decisions And uh but it kind of c it to me it r it very much feels like uh the what communism felt like, which is when you look at it on paper and you think about it from this um you know, like everyone’s good kind of idea, it looks really good on paper. Like what if we all just shared and split it evenly? Like that would be great. Like Um, the people who are really good at things can help people who aren’t and and and we’ll have this equal system where there’ll be benevolence everywhere. No one will be upset at having more or less or whatever. And I think hierarchy free companies feels the same way where it’s like it’s gonna be so great. Everyone will have a sense of authority and ownership in the company, whatever, but the reality, just like communism, is not that what’s on paper it ends up being completely different and the reason is because humans are human right and so in communism they’re not just gonna happily hand over the wages and if they do it you’re just gonna require a a major structural governmental police force to ensure that they will hand it over, right? And so now you’re dealing with a huge government side of things that enforces this thing and no chance that gets corrupt, right? Because we’re in this perfect utopia. But no, it doesn’t work that way.

Mark:

Because of the human dynamic.

Justin:

Right. And so I think right communism is another one of those fence breakers like either way we were doing it whether it was imperialism or democracy is broken for these various reasons which if you look at any fence I think uh was a Benjamin Franklin said if you look at all forms of government uh democracy is the worst one except for all the others. You ever heard that I think is hilarious and true because

Mark:

the fact that there isn’t a perfect

Justin:

right Right. And it’s broken in so many ways. You can look at it and go, look at how it’s you know broken in this way and this way. But yet it’s proven itself, you know, that it’s a pretty fine fence. And And yeah, it’s got some holes and it needs some repair and sometimes we gotta move one end of the post to another spot or whatever.

Mark:

But

Justin:

um but yeah, the hierarchy free companies I’m really Rabbit trailing. Uh I’ve I’ve been in organizations where that was the ideal. And I can tell you it’s not ideal.

Mark:

Yeah. Okay.

Justin:

Um because no one quite has the author So they don’t know what they can do. And so you’re left kind of doing mediocre work because it’s like, I think this is what I’m supposed to do. And you’re There’s a little bit of fear at risking yourself and then there will be some people who do risk themselves and go, you know, put themselves out there, whatever, take authority or whatever, and in some cases they’ll benefit from it. Like they’ll be recognized and there’s, you know, some s form of hierarchy that kind of still surfaces in that way. And then in some cases they’ll be like, No, that was wrong. You shouldn’t have done that and they’ll sink back into you know, and there’s just and then when you know know the proverbial crap hits the fan. It’s like, well, who’s responsible? Well, you usually find out that there’s still hierarchy when crap hits the fan. Someone’s gotta answer. for this, right? Right. And a good leadership is someone who answers for for when the crap hits the fan and they protect everyone under them from it.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

And obviously you know, there’s also bad leadership which is where you know, management you look at the hierarchy and it’s a bunch of birds on a triangle, right? And the top bird is crapping on the second row and the second row is crapping on the third row. Like that’s the kind of that’s the fence that the hierarchy free companies are trying to tear down this bureaucracy, this idea of, you know, everyone’s just crapping downwards and It’s like I got yelled at, so you’re gonna get yelled at, and I got deadlines, so you’re gonna have deadlines and you know that kind of thing. And of course, that is broken.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Um yeah, so it’s just very interesting. But again, I’ve I’ve been in part of organizations where I’d much rather know who my boss is. I’d much rather know who I answer to. I’d much rather know they said this, so I have to do it, whether I like it or not, than to have the freedom to say, well I can just do the thing I want, but what are the I don’t necessarily know the consequences that second order consequences of that decision, right? Um anyway.

Mark:

So for you, and I’m and I’m thinking about this, is is this just comfort from based on the generation you grew up in?

Justin:

Hmm hierarchy?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Uh very potentially, yeah. I mean that’s it’s very possible. Like that’s my fence. Is that what you mean?

Mark:

Well no I’m thinking about it in this This is it possible? Um I’m I’m hearing what some p individuals might be thinking in my own mind. as I’m listening to you say that. And I’m and I’m thinking about the individual, possibly a younger individual, that says, well yeah that’s you’re you’re good with hierarchy because that’s what you grew up with and you’re comfortable with it

Justin:

He’s pouring some coffee. If you hear that sound.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s good. But either way, um

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

because uh I’m looking at you and saying, okay, here’s a here’s a late 30s something. that’s that’s grown up with a positive dynamic of hierarchy. And I’m saying maybe there’s a 25 something out there. out there that’s saying well that’s just because

Justin:

right

Mark:

that’s what you like and you see it and you haven’t seen the benefits of being a cat herder. Well I shouldn’t use cat herd. I don’t necessarily see that as a positive analogy, but you know, this this utopian because I’m hearing everything you’re saying as far as it developing complacency.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And, you know, there is this confusion that goes along. I think that’s why in some cases, and here you know, but you know, I I I would say, you know, every military movie you watch, you know, that’s part of the dynamic is there is this, you know, we want to take out the leadership because that creates a confusion, but yet there are those leaders that rise up and people will. So I I’m just wrestling with that in my own mind as far as that individual. Because I’m comf I’m I’m wrestling with it. in that aspect that I’m comfortable with what you’re saying too.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I’m trying to see it from someone’s different perspective. That sees the value in hierarchy free. And I’m not sure I’m convincing myself. I’m being honest with you. But at the same time. Go ahead. I see the thoughts.

Justin:

Uh well I’m just thinking about as that young twenty-something or whether the hierarchy free means great. I can be recognized for all the passion and fire I have to like I look at the 39 year olds and they’re kind of s leaning back in their chair and I’m raring go. Like they’re looking at me saying, You’re in leadership but you’re not doing what I would do.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I w you I have so much more fire and passion to produce amazing things than someone who’s been around the block, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Which I think is true. I think there is this young man’s passion that gets squashed in the current hierarchical system. I think what

Mark:

teachers teachers come to mind when you say it like that.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, a young teacher fresh out of college, you know, has all of the the fire to You know, in some way and I’m I’m not being sarcastic.

Justin:

No, I know.

Mark:

That fire to change the world. And yeah.

Justin:

Yes. experience as well like being involved with like church from a young age there was a time where I was like I’m on fire I want to shake things up I feel like we should do things so different differently in in church in in a vi in a certain environment. And I look like, you know, fifteen years removed from that person. And I’m glad I I’m looking back and going, I’m so glad he wasn’t handed the reins.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

If that makes sense. Now s f things would’ll been lit on fire and that would have been there’s sometimes fire’s good, right? Like I’m not

Mark:

I’m Justin’s gonna burn the fence down.

Justin:

Exactly Exactly. I think there’s uh I think it would be foolish to ignore the benefits and value in fire and in pack passion and in

Mark:

youth

Justin:

and so often the current system is broken in that way. And I don’t know how to solve that. But I don’t think tearing the fence down is the way to solve it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I do th it’s like one of those things where you recognize that the current system isn’t perfect.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And there could be improvements, but so how do we How do we engender that, you know, that passion in a safe way that doesn’t burn the fence down, but also maybe it blazes a path through it in a particular place where we put a gate in, like you said. Um, so that I think that’s the position my younger self is going. Give me room to grow. Like give me room to make these things that you guys don’t have the guts to do, you know, it’s like they I think in some cases that’s true, you know, but again, that passion can be out of control. That passion can be misguided. it can be missing the second third order consequence thinking.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

‘Cause you’re only looking at the fence and you’re angry it’s there. It’s like why do you people leave this fence here?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And I so I think I think I think a lot of times that fence becomes more apparent why it exists the longer you’re around the fence.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And I and I am Here again, this isn’t about us and the podcast, but I am reflecting on how I see it makes such a difference there.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I and I can recognize, you know, to a certain degree that young, passionate person is basically l seeing the leadership as being complacent. Yes. And you know, and maybe that’s not the case. Maybe there’s some experience here that I’m not necessarily aware of. aware of and yes the leadership might be able to acknowledge hey I appreciate this zeal that you have and I value it But it and at the same time, you can trust me that I’m going to take your input to the degree that I think it’s valuable and I’m going to value you as a person. But at the same time, you know, I’ve uh and I I I think of some individual, you know So often the person who has been there longer has actually seen or heard that before and experienced how we’ve tried that particular thing and it didn’t really work.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And I and I think that’s where, you know, valuing one another. and what we experience, how we see it, what who may have seen the benefits of this fence versus the individual, well, that doesn’t see a benefit. to it, but yet still recognizing there can be places where we put gates in. Yeah. I think that’s the

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well that um a good balance to this article is another one on Farnham Street where he talks about um Jeff Bezos, one of his kind of e th you know, I guess guiding thoughts in the way he ran Amazon. He’s the CEO of Amazon. Uh or was, actually, he just re moved on from that. But obviously he he built a pretty ridiculous company. Um and one of the guiding principles is this idea of reversible and irreversible decisions. And so when we’re talking about the fence. Um, you know, removing a board is reversible because let’s see what that does. And I think good leadership is able to recognize kind of the the difference where where the the the consequences have much further second order consequences or they’re not that significant So we can just try it, right? And I think to your point about sometimes we have s we say, well, we’ve it we’ve done that before and it was broken. And so we’re not willing to try new things. or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Sometimes the thing is, you know, not the same thing, but we see it as the same. How I see it is, yes, been there, done that, no, thank you.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

How they see it is, no, what you did was that was a stupid thing. This is way better.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right. And so I think this I mean at some point we gotta talk about good you know, true leadership, right? ‘Cause that there’s so much of this ties into that, but good leadership is able to recognize, okay, yes, there’s potentially differences here. How much impact will this decision decision to make if we try it and is it reversible?

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

And I think sometimes you can move fast, break things and put the things back right back up, right? Like uh the idea of move fast and break things is problematic if the things you’re breaking sh can’t be put back up. Right? Um but if they can be, that’s that’s where Amazon comes in, right? Like let’s try it, let’s try it, let’s try it. Iterate, iterate, iterate, and if it’s reversible, go back, you know? And like we can try those things. But it requires strong leadership to recognize we can try things, we can put things back.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And not get stuck in the sunk cause fallacy of like, well, we’re we’re trying it so we gotta run with it and until you know, whatever. Um yeah, we’ll have to put in the show notes a link to both of those ’cause I think they’re really good articles. Um if you don’t mind there’s one other quote I go for ‘Cause I know we’re we’re close on time. Yep. And I know it’s gonna shut us off, right? Um in the Chester Chesterton’s Fence article, they move into the discussion of Of even um addiction.

Mark:

Um

Justin:

and so they talk about recovery programs, and he basically says attempting to remove the habit and leave everything else untouched does not eliminate the need. and can simply lead to a replacement habit that might be just as harmful or even worse. Because of this, more successful approaches often involve replacing a bad habit with a good, benign, or less harmful one or dealing with the underlying need. And I thought, man, that is so good. And there’s a term in uh AA called the dry drunk, right? It’s this idea that someone is no longer drinking, but every other version of their life is exactly the same. You know, every other part of their life looks exactly Exactly the same. Um or like, you know, in the case of, you know, you remove one potential salve for the problem, right? Like maybe they they’re smoking weed and you take that away or you know whatever and they find something else because that need was not met.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I don’t know, I just that’s a big reason why, you know I’ve always cared so much about celebrate recovery because it’s like let’s get to the root. Let’s not just chop the leaves off and when they come back chop ’em again, chop them again and and say, you know, whatever, but let’s let’s dive into the dirt and figure out where is this thing starting from and maybe there’s a way to solve that. Sure. That n that deeper need. And um I don’t know, I j I really like what they’re saying. in there ’cause even even a bad habit can be a fence that if you remove it doesn’t, you know, it’s I don’t know. So that that was really good.

Mark:

Yeah, no that is good. Yeah. The old Barney Nip it in the bud.

Justin:

Comes to mind. Nip it in the bud.

Mark:

Yeah, but go back to the root of where it came from in such a way.

Justin:

Yeah. And so it’s like going back to the fence analogy, well the fence is there because of coyotes. Well if we could figure out how to control the population of coyotes, maybe the fence wouldn’t be necessary necessary, right? And so whatever that looks like, maybe they’re predators, we did something to remove them and we can bring them back and keep that get that ecosystem more balanced and I you know what I mean? Like just example of going back to the root of the problem and and figuring out why the fence is there in the first place. And then you can safely remove the fence because the coyotes are handled, right?

Mark:

Yeah. No. Yeah.

Justin:

It’s good stuff.

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

That’s how I see it. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.