0:05
flip them right back around are you yep you flipping the script this morning get

0:10
ready get ready I don't know what the script is yet yeah that's okay once I do I'm how are you Justin I'm good how are

0:17
you good I'm very I'm excited I see that yeah why I'm excited about our next

0:24
podcast yes yes our next podcast or will we will this one

0:31
this one will release oh boy oh boy Matt hang on we got a I think we released Tuesday but

0:38
excited about the 28th I think that's what we're getting okay we don't do math folks that's okay or calendars either

0:44
way I'm excited about the 28th I'm excited about the 28th so yes February

0:52
28th uh I posted uh the little synopsis of our episode yesterday and I put a

0:57
little blur about you know our event and I forgot to put the 28th in there so

1:04
Jackson texted thank you Jackson if you're listening he texted me and let me know so I fixed it but uh so just

1:10
sometime in February 700 p.m. is it 700 p.m. yes 7 p.m. cool cool don't forget

1:18
no I'm not forgetting I everyone else oh I was going to say you'll be there yeah I'll be there you'll probably be there

1:23
early don't mess with people's minds man 7 700 p.m. 700 p.m. on the 28th on the

1:30
28 seven on the 28th yes I am excited though hopefully you guys will see us or

1:36
we'll see you there February 28th 700 p.m. bring some questions um yeah bring

1:41
some friends bring some friends that's right I like

1:48
[Music] it welcome to how I see it with me Mark

1:55
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to countercultural

2:02
polarization through thoughtful [Music]

2:08
conversations so yes not about this this this podcast isn't about the there but

2:15
I'm still excited yeah but I was thinking about it in the context like you said uh and I think it was kard that

2:22
talked about you know the Dark Knight of the soul type thing can you think of a time when you've just and I I I

2:29
appreciate what you share uh you know from your in your transparency regarding

2:34
depression and so forth in that context and I and I I think in some ways the two are

2:42
similar and may be very much the same but it doesn't necessarily always

2:49
seem I guess when I put when I put it out there Dark Knight of Soul what comes to your

2:56
mind and maybe maybe it's an antiquated type no I

3:02
think I think yeah it does come to mind in terms of maybe maybe depression but

3:08
also kind of discouragement or doubt or a lot a lot of those dword right sure depression discouragement doubt despair

3:17
sure any other dwords that kind of thing though yeah

3:23
yeah and I was uh as it's interesting cuz I would I guess I wouldn't necessarily

3:31
consider myself a person who struggles with depression you know as a as a whole

3:37
but it was interesting I think from my perspective I've probably experienced what I would consider a dark night you

3:45
know and I and I think for me that process is those moments when it just

3:50
seems like God may be far away yeah you know from a spiritual standpoint you

3:57
know and and you know looking back it's it's been funny as I've been as

4:03
I've been looking back and kind of reviewing Through the Bible you know starting in Genesis this year it's like

4:08
I think there's this part of us and it may and I think it's a myth on my part that

4:14
um I think the tendency is to think that people in the Old Testament were almost

4:20
Clueless yeah you follow and and I'm and I'm I'm recognizing that's a myth on my part CU I believe you know as I'm really

4:28
looking back I'm recognizing how God has shown up in so many ways for

4:34
so many individuals in the Old Testament yeah you know do you you know as you read

4:42
yeah those things as you get older I mean yeah do you every time you read it

4:47
does it feel more and more relatable yeah very much so kind of that those those guys are stupid Factor goes more

4:54
and more like yeah just like me exactly and I and I think that that connects

5:00
with it you know I think we in know and here again I'm not saying I'm not blaming it on culture but it is almost

5:06
that similar mindset to a certain degree that you know those people back then

5:14
yeah you know they didn't have it figured out and like us like we tend to

5:19
think yes but in reality they're just like us and we're just or we're just

5:26
like them and I think you know there is this context where we can say you know

5:32
they just didn't have a they just didn't have what they needed without you know

5:37
the presence of the Holy Spirit and Jesus you know Jesus had came now we have the Holy Spirit in that context and

5:44
I'm thinking about it's like well that's I look back it's like God the Father God the son you know in some cases God the

5:50
Holy Spirit showed up yeah and yet as I'm thinking about it too he showed up in some miraculous ways yeah to to make

5:58
his presence known yeah and yet at the same time we do have the biblical

6:04
reference that offers you know like 400 years where no one heard from God yeah

6:11
you know in that in that context and that's you know I'm not saying you know

6:16
go ahead you know we translate it that way right that's not necessarily the truth it's just that the recording of

6:23
what was happening stopped right I and that's where I was going to it's you know it's not so much that you know God

6:28
was silent I don't think I think it's more the aspect of you know what was recorded and those those events yeah if

6:37
you will what he wanted recorded was enough yeah yeah and I you know so but I

6:44
in my personal life you know it's interesting because if I look at that at

6:51
that context of the Old Testament I can recognize in my life how God's been very

6:58
present and at certain you know points in my life certain stages if you will

7:04
yeah and yeah I can admit you know it does seem as if and this isn't this

7:09
isn't a negative thing in this in the context of Dark Knight but it did seem

7:15
like I've just gone through this process of probably one of the darker times that

7:21
I can remember in my life just recently you know so when I think about that you

7:27
know that Darkness it was as if if you know a more of a going through the

7:34
motions yeah process yeah but yet and and and it the interesting part

7:41
too as I think about it it had as as we know probably on the other side of a

7:48
difficulty it had very little to do with God being quiet as much as it had to do

7:55
with me being in a different stage mhm an unfamiliar territory uh a

8:03
uncomfortable place and what did I do with that you know and I think that's

8:09
probably more so for me what led to that you know that dark night if you will

8:16
that Dark Knight period and and here again I'm I'm not being dram I don't want to sound like I'm being dramatic in

8:22
that process but I'm gonna recognize it as a you know probably a months long

8:30
type Dynamic you know to where it just seemed like God was quiet and the reason

8:35
I bring that out there is it's like I think I think most of us will experience

8:42
something like that you know yeah and I'm and here again I'm not saying God

8:48
isn't or you know Jesus isn't available in those contexts but yet I think you

8:54
know those Dark Knights have a reason they have a purpose and

9:00
in some ways once we get to the other side of it that that time you know

9:05
whatever that time is time frame is you know I think we can recognize the the

9:11
bright days and how our view has shifted at that point you know and so it's like

9:18
and I and I think that's that's where I'm coming from this aspect of

9:24
encouragement you know that says yeah if you're in that circumstance and I

9:29
realize you know we've talked about it before how the you know the shortness of days and you know and yeah short light

9:37
in the days and longer nights you know can tend to affect people you know and

9:42
yet for me personally I would say that wasn't even really a part of it m you know for me and like I say for me a lot

9:50
of it I think was life cycle stages you know um well in cont in

9:57
context and here again this is just kind of the stuff that I've thought about in

10:03
context I think part of it was my mom's passing yeah you know from August you

10:09
know I think some of that reality set in a little more you know around Christmas

10:16
you know not having her there for the first time yeah you know and I and that

10:21
that I want to you know put that out there too in the in the context of you know that's absolutely posi that's

10:29
normal yeah you know and yet I want to put that out there in such a way that says yeah if you've lost someone when

10:36
you lose someone I would say you know to recognize that's going to be a part of

10:42
that process and I think it hit me a little harder personally as I as I came

10:48
into some other life cycle stages because I can respect the fact that in

10:53
the back of my mind I knew you know probably especially

10:58
since retirement you know I knew that my mom was praying for you know us my our

11:04
family myself you know on a daily basis MH and somewhere along the line you know

11:10
that reality came back that those prayers aren't being offered up anymore you know and in my

11:17
humanness you know it's like crap you know I mean you know that that's that's

11:23
that's what it felt like I don't mean to be crash but you know what I mean it was like those prayers aren't being offered

11:29
my anymore and you know and to be able to recognize okay God God isn't limited

11:36
by that you know go ahead just to pause you real quick so much of what you're describing

11:44
um and a lot of the things that contribute to those dark days

11:51
um you know there's there's Beauty in it especially as you look can look back on

11:56
those things I mean it's really hard to say that and think that in the middle of it yes coming from my own personal

12:03
experience but like you know this whole thing about well crap those prayers aren't being offered is coming from a

12:08
place of beauty of that you had that experience with your mother you you sure basically leaned on knowing that right

12:15
exactly and then once you leaned on it this last time and realized whoa there's

12:20
nothing nothing to lean on exactly that Stark reality is yeah and and that's not

12:27
to say that I don't have other people we we don't have other people praying for

12:33
us you know that because I know there are people you know and and I appreciate all those and I know you appreciate all

12:38
those you know but when that that was kind of that reality that set in along the way yeah and you know and I think in

12:46
some cases what and I and I'm I don't have an issue Sharon I maybe it's even

12:52
helpful even you know the other stages that go along with that I think you know

12:57
um definitely as we were trying to transition you know the house get the other house and

13:03
certain certain weighted you know from trying to get the other house fixed up

13:09
and running into issues and no insurance you know coverage on you know the issues that came up that was a part of it and I

13:15
would say um even as far as a life cycle stage recognizing you know well our kids in

13:23
relationship mhm you know what I'm saying and this is nothing against them having relationship

13:29
or who they're in relationship with I think for me it just came down to more

13:35
of an expectation of what that would look like yeah and to recognize that in

13:41
that process in that adjustment you know and I and I realized my parents went

13:47
through it with me you know this process and your parents went through it with you this process of developing

13:55
relationship and you know and you're You're Building Rel relationship with Megan and depending Less on your parents

14:02
you know that it's a normal life cycle stage it's a redefining yes of it's a

14:09
DTR yes yes yes and and but yet what

14:15
makes it difficult is it's a redefining but the the difference

14:21
between the what um diff the D part is a

14:27
little more difficult yeah because in that process you know and and I think it

14:33
was more so with Lizzy you know I'm just nothing against but I think it was more

14:38
so when in that process of transition you know I can understand I

14:45
didn't in the past I had never really had to

14:52
um not necessarily way in other words I could pretty much speak my mind I I

14:58
could be unfilled altered mhm you know in that I could pretty much speak my mind and I could recognize that you know

15:05
Lizzy would hear that and the context was good because it wasn't really

15:11
personal but yeah I can also realize as that relationship you know her relationship

15:17
was redefining from us you know I did need to be a little more Mindful and you

15:23
know in hindsight she was able to recognize some of the defensiveness you know and and so we were able to redefine

15:30
that relationship and and now it's good it's it's something that we have been able to go through but I can I can

15:37
recognize how that initial process and and my expectations not being met not

15:45
that there was anything wrong with the relationship there again but being able to recognize it was my expectations were

15:52
different and I think in some ways that led me to some aspects of control which

15:59
is in you know it's like do you see this do you see that do which made it seem like I was being critical you know where

16:07
I don't think I would it wouldn't have come across that way if it was just

16:13
someone out there that we were both observing did you notice that you know because it would have just been no I

16:19
didn't observe that and no but that makes sense you know that kind of thing so it's just been interesting as I've

16:25
kind of gone through this process if you will and I think you know there's other other

16:32
uh I'll call them strivings on my part you know around the the holidays you

16:39
know with people I think it gets a little different you know from a workload Dynamic and and just stressors

16:44
from work you know that I was probably taking on myself you know in that

16:50
context but being able to recognize that yeah there and I and I think part of I

16:57
didn't even as I think I appreciate app what you're saying I know I appreciate what you're saying and so often in the

17:02
middle of it we don't know yeah what we know until the end and when we get to

17:09
the end we realize how part of us is back yeah you know yes it it's it's that

17:16
ability to say okay you know whereas be before for me I'll be honest in that

17:22
process for me it's like you know I could find myself over sleeping you know

17:28
that kind of thing and you know and in holidays I realized the schedules Chang and so forth but you know it after being

17:36
back it's like now I'm just ready to at you know my my initial 4:00 4:15 it's

17:41
like I'm on I'm the you know the the bright days are here you know and I'm

17:47
able to be back into who I consider myself to be you know what it kind of

17:53
makes me think of no but I love you um because I this is

17:59
just hearing you talk about kind of your dark day situation it you know and and

18:05
reflecting on my own um it reminds me of when a child is playing on the floor

18:11
perfectly happy mhm and he looks up and his mother's not there he goes where's

18:17
mom you know sure and oh she had to run whatever and then that lighthearted like

18:23
just not how of care in the world all a sudden there's care now sure and there's like they can't be peace there can't

18:31
they can't they can't go back to the way it was right because there's this

18:36
concern this this like and I feel like a lot of times it's very much feels like that with God in these situations the

18:44
darkness the despair the discouragement sure you know the depression it's like

18:50
well where's that yeah because cuz I could just feel his presence and I would

18:55
just go about and do my thing and everything was light and good I could just just do my thing knowing he

19:01
was right behind me you and then I turned around I was like and no then I started experiencing things that felt

19:08
like he wasn't there and I turn around I I don't see him where'd he go you know and then you start looking and it feels

19:14
more or like he went to the store you know and now you're like well and he didn't take you with him right so now

19:20
you're like okay all right um okay I guess I got to figure this one out then

19:25
you know you kind of start to take on personally right iar those cares of the

19:30
world and those things that you need to do and depending a little bit less on on that you know I hear yeah and you know I

19:38
think you know we can go on and on about the reasons I definitely think God does these things for a reason I believe that

19:45
um the valleys are um integral to our faith you know sure um I see I see them

19:52
as part of the progression as well yeah you know of Faith the progression of Faith the growing in our faith yeah yeah

19:59
but to I guess what I would want to say clearly is that I don't believe the

20:05
better Faith you have the more faith you have the less values you'll have like it's not a guarantee of well that you

20:11
should be able to have enough Faith to get rid of valleys right like that's I wouldn't want to convey that and I don't

20:17
think that's what you meant but I would just want to make that clear yeah I think the as much Faith as you can have

20:23
you're still going to go through those valleys but the faith is what helps can help you walk through those valleys of

20:29
course um do you remember what you shared like last week or the week before at CR about faith and and valleys and

20:37
the absence do you remember what you shared as far as it's do you remember I a

20:44
little glimmers coming Valley but I definitely it wasn't Valley but it was the you know Faith isn't kind of the

20:51
faith isn't ABS isn't the absence of difficulty Faith isn't because I don't

20:57
have any doubt you I just easy believism and it's just it's easy to believe and

21:02
it's all there faith is in contrast to the doubt you have

21:09
sure like the greater Faith you have the more you're believing in spite of those

21:14
doubts in spite of those discouragements those despairs you know sure U I believe

21:20
that's when faith is at its strongest agre which is the opposite of what we

21:26
kind of believe right our faith is that it's strongest when I believe the best and I don't have doubts and I just don't

21:32
believe that's true I believe our faith is at its it's working at its best when

21:38
all of those things are in our face and we're having to look at them and say yes but God sure right sure no doubt and I

21:46
think you know and I really appreciate the analogy of the you know the Son and the father well daughters are of course

21:53
included with the relationship to the father but you know for me personally I was thinking you know

21:59
in a lot of cases what I was experiencing for me and I think that

22:04
part of what led to that Dynamic was my desire to if I when I didn't necessarily

22:12
feel God or you know see God in some tangible way it was I ran ahead looking

22:20
for him you know in my striving yeah you know well it's got to be this way and

22:26
this is what has to be done and there therefore it's up to me to do it now all by myself mhm you know in in that kind

22:34
and I think that's what actually part of what and I think you know here again

22:40
it's all in combination you know it's like well I need to get that figured out

22:46
I need to get that figured out and I need to get that figured out yeah you know and these were all bigger things

22:52
you know based on circumstances and you know life cycle stages that it's like

22:58
this is all new to me you know so I I'm respecting the fact of in hindsight

23:04
there again you know the self-reflection if you will how all these things kind of came together in that and that's where

23:11
from from that perspective I want to offer that hope I want to offer that

23:16
encouragement that yes there will be the time when we get

23:22
to the other side and you know it's not just a a dark KN indefinitely yeah you

23:30
know the though in the middle of it yes you'll often be convinced this is my new

23:37
reality sure right yeah and I and and you've you've mentioned that before you know in that um not that it seems

23:45
infinitely long but I think it was along that ter you the there isn't the ability

23:52
or it's difficult let's put it that way to see that there is an end in sight

23:58
especially if it's gone on for you know a month or you know and and that's not

24:04
to say you know that circumstances can't go on for years right you know yep

24:13
and that's where I you know that's where I'm thankful to be able to recognize okay yeah you know it's been an

24:19
interesting month's you know I'll call it not necessarily you know it wasn't anything I don't think it was anything

24:25
that necessarily settled in you know right in August or you know right at

24:31
that time you know I think it was a reality change or redefining as you put

24:37
it that kind of set in with other things that that brought about that and it's not that there weren't you know moments

24:44
of joy you know in that you know celebrations you know Christmas and family and you know and John and Lizzie

24:52
both had a birthday here you know within the past month you know to where that's all been good but yeah there was that

25:02
that energy excitement that wasn't able to be was tempered it was tempered yeah

25:10
yeah yeah limited governed to a certain degree yeah and and for me I think I noticed

25:17
that more so in how I view the morning time you know for that personally for me

25:25
it's just you know yeah so this is this is your your turn to

25:31
flip the script now I see the wheels turning but yeah what's funny is I had a

25:39
lot of thoughts and then they would come and then it be and then they would just disappear oh well that's okay too I

25:45
think this is okay uh oh one of the thoughts was um how often we don't even

25:52
know the kind of the I'll use the word structures we don't necessarily know the

25:57
structures in our life that prop us up sure right and when

26:02
those slip or Lo we lose them or or things change or that structure shifts

26:08
MH all of a sudden our our life is kind of in scramble it's kind of like the mom

26:14
leav in the room kind of thing where like why doesn't thing why don't things feel right and as you walk through the

26:22
situation kind of like what you described you kind of get through and you can look back and go well you know

26:27
my mom died and then help you know helping them transition and kind of those realizations as they came in place

26:35
and then life cycles like as you're able to look back and go oh that structure shifted that one was removed you know

26:41
and the things that I was leaning on like they are not there so I have to like reposition in my seat and figure

26:47
out you know how to how to stand strong like how to stand tall and not be leaning on those things now sure because

26:55
even if for some reason I was able to get them back let's say you had a rift in a a relationship and you knew that it

27:01
was repairable but like for right now it's just tough right like even if you perceive the opportunity for that

27:08
structure coming back you recognize something right like that there there was something

27:14
about that that I was leaning on that causes me to just to kind of start to fall to slip MH um when I don't have it

27:22
and I think that's natural I think that's okay and I think God gives us those things to help us like I think

27:29
that's his goodness but I also think sometimes he reminds us of our Frailty and of our weakness and of our need for

27:35
him and says yeah not that thing you don't get to lean on that anymore now what are you going to lean on exactly or

27:41
who are you we start scrambling like what can I do and like you said maybe striving to solve it or you know and

27:48
what you were saying about I would almost describe what you were saying like kind of the scramble

27:54
right like in our scramble mhm depending on your number if you go back back to the Primal questions right like sure

28:00
okay your scramble might like look different in those dark times and for markets work harder I yeah right it's

28:06
like you know strive right for others it might be don't get and that could that

28:11
could be tied to the seven purpose yeah you know cuz I I think you know when we think about that Dark Knight you know my

28:18
purpose you know can tend to you know be affected and feel fainter yeah and that

28:25
and I'm not saying that's the same for everyone based on that question well if you're a success person and you're in a

28:31
dark time then it feels like you're being less successful if you're safe person sure could be a failure you could

28:37
see yourself as a you know failure in that process or if you're a safe person and all a sudden things it just doesn't

28:43
feel safe again like yeah you know I think your numbers can kind of dictate how you slip

28:50
into that dark time then what the scramble looks like in that dark time kind of kind of the modus operandi right

28:58
that you slip into as a result of but the bottom line is like God desires

29:04
intimacy with us and sometimes he will walk out of the room so that we recognize like what's not right here

29:11
sometimes he'll pull things out of the room that we're leaning on too much say yeah not that you know and let us reset

29:19
you know and we're going to reset hopefully with a little bit more faith a little B bit more dependency on him but

29:25
we also might find another thing to lean on instead sure right and he's a good father he lets that happen but I do

29:30
believe that's a big part of it is just when those things in our life shift and we're left going whoa what's this thing

29:39
life it doesn't make sense anymore without you know what I mean death of loved ones is a a really good example

29:45
loss of jobs you know just kind of those life things or it could just be something as simple and small as your

29:51
best friend moves to a different state for a job thing and you know it's sad and all that and you didn't think think

29:58
it would be that big a deal but all a sudden it's like life just feels different yeah right yeah oh yeah I you

30:04
know as as it's kind of funny I don't mean I don't want to make light of those Dynamics but you know just having I was

30:12
working with a young family as they were you know working with their child about uh not nursing anymore and I think about

30:20
it in the terms of that pacifier you know when the when a pacifier goes away it's like hey what's going on here you

30:28
know that kind of thing that's you know as you were describing that you know I think we have we can have multiple

30:34
pacifiers to a certain degree that we you know lean on for self self soothing

30:41
you know and I think you know when that gets when that changes when those those structures if you will constructs you

30:49
know change or shift yeah it's it's it can be different now what do I self self

30:55
soothe with yeah that's a good yes how do I how do I yeah because I might not

31:01
have even realized how that thing you know met a need and helped me self

31:07
soothe and now that isn't here you know and I was thinking about it in the in sa like you shared with you know the

31:13
prayers of my mom you know being able to come back to that Dynamic that says okay you know the the holy spirit is

31:20
interceding for us continually before the father you know it's like yeah because I and I think you know so much

31:27
of what we think about or how we think about does come down to the constructs

31:32
we have you know uh and I think we have to at times challenge that spiritual our

31:40
challenge our human perspective based on you know a Biblical perspective yeah you

31:45
know and just kind of yeah being able to visit that the Old Testament like you

31:51
said provides a pretty good demonstration of just the Frailty of humanity and um again when you read it

31:59
sure when you're young and whatever it's like these idiots you had got right

32:05
there in a cloud and fire like yeah pouring water out of rocks for you you know dropping food from the

32:12
sky you guys are so stupid you know it's like the older I get I'm like holy crap

32:18
I am the same we doubt God's faithfulness like he just dropped food

32:24
from the sky in so many ways right like I can see his provision my life so many ways and yet it's like okay God what

32:31
about today yeah like I'm hungry yeah yeah we're tired of corn

32:37
flakes God we want something a little different yeah yeah exactly that's a

32:42
good metaphor for my struggle with mundanity and just like okay there been enough

32:48
Tuesdays I hear you I need more Fridays you know what I mean like it's kind of the same idea for me U but yeah yeah so

32:59
yeah a lot of a lot of good thoughts I know like you say and I just I I and I

33:05
think I I part of what I have been doing you know in the in the self-reflection

33:10
in some ways too I if you want to if you want to call what I describe as depression I'm okay

33:18
with that but yet in some ways it wasn't necessarily what I would call depressive

33:25
based on what I've heard from other people you what I'm saying and so it's not it's not like you can't say Mark

33:30
that was depression and I wouldn't say you know well okay I can see that but it's you know so I've really honestly

33:37
rustled with that you know whe whether it would be considered that you know when you take into context because yeah

33:45
it was definitely a sleep Dynamic you know I just desired to sleep a little more you know which I can understand can

33:52
be a depress a sign of depression you know that kind of thing but it wasn't like I wanted to spend the entire day in

33:59
bed you know it was just I was missing that spark for me you know for that

34:05
early morning and I think you know it was also reflected from a spiritual Dynamic that my my quiet time didn't

34:13
necessarily have all of the

34:19
um the juice this sure the Pizzaz yes yes no I get it

34:27
yeah yeah you know the the spirit filled Dynamic you know of saying oh wow that's cool

34:34
you know or thank you God you know that kind of it it just wasn't there it was for me it was more of a of a going

34:41
through the motion yeah which I think was still very helpful yeah you know in

34:47
that process yeah but you know looking back I can recognize you know it's like

34:53
the the energy wasn't there the desire wasn't there you know and you know

34:59
that's that's so by all means you know you can push back but I still respect the aspect it from my perspective it

35:06
wasn't like what I hear from other people and maybe that's the closest I'll come you know it's funny you asking

35:12
about it being a therapist well yeah I mean but I yeah no I get it I get it

35:18
it's just it's like I'm not going to tell you it's depression you're the but no I the thing that kept coming to mind

35:24
is you know your word the Continuum right and I do believe depression is a Continuum iar and I think you know I've

35:31
used the river analogy a lot right this this idea that depression at its worst kills you I got

35:39
you right at its worst it it convinces you or you know you're in such a state

35:46
of mind that you know it kills you I hear you right so that's one end of the

35:51
Continuum that's the worst end yep and I think that's the Hopeless completely hopeless end yes only hope is exit sure

36:00
right I hear you that's the to get out if I'm continually in this you're just

36:06
tumbling you're you're drowning and it's just yeah yeah it's you need relief to

36:12
the seems as if there is no end correct y yes yep and I mean there's it's it

36:20
depends on how you that reality what's reality is it

36:27
percept or is it is it's what is it what's in front of you and I think that's one thing that I struggle with in

36:33
the worst parts of depression is like whether reality is true or not what I

36:38
feel is more real than that does that make sense sure so it's like you were saying it seems like there's no hope no

36:46
there isn't right because that's all you know I mean it's it's limited to what I'm able to perceive you know sure uh

36:53
but you're still right like there's and you know I have hope right I have I have

36:59
proof I have the Mana he's provided from Heaven the quailes the water he's burst

37:05
from rocks you know yeah so in those moments those are the ropes I'm clinging to while I'm tumbling in the water kind

37:11
of thing and then I just wait for him to yank me out and he does you know uh but anyway back to the analogy like I've

37:18
described it before like there's sometimes I can't see the river I can't hear the ri I can't hear the rushing

37:24
over the Rocks it's just it's not a thing and in those moments I'm like was that even a real you know like I can't

37:32
even remember what a river looks like what it sounds like you know so I'm like maybe it was maybe I'm just crazy you

37:38
know maybe whatever and then it's like uh you know struggling with seasonal uh

37:44
sad yeah sad seasonal affected disorder yeah like it will Cal around fall and

37:51
it's pretty pretty standard that oh yeah that's what the reverse sounds like like sure I can hear it you know and

37:58
sometimes I can get a glimpse of it and I can say oh yeah that's what it looks like sometimes I you know I use that analogy like sometimes my toes are wet

38:05
right like well it's it's definitely here it's it's not not a thing like I'm

38:10
definitely a little wet my shoes are a little squishy yeah and that's when I start going hey you know friends maybe

38:17
pray a little bit cuz I'm feeling that water over my toes that kind of thing and again I do think it's a Continuum

38:23
and I think every person struggles with some of that Continuum at some point in

38:29
their life whether you want to call it depression or not you know it's I hear the river I see the river it's causing

38:36
you know those a new way of thinking yeah right when you don't hear the river you don't see the river your thoughts

38:42
are complet it's that lightness that you described yeah where you got that spring in the step or whatever and I I

38:49
think but again I I'm not a therapist but that's kind of my perspective is that a lot of people will

38:55
say that they struggle with depression and you can never doubt that I don't I

39:00
don't doubt anyone's experience right but I can definitely say there's a a

39:05
gamut of experiences you can you can experience and I like you said the the sleep thing yeah the lack of passion

39:12
like all of that speaks to those I mean you know those are a lot of the symptoms so yeah and it's interesting and as

39:19
you're talking about the you know perception and reality you know there's a I don't know maybe you've heard of it

39:25
Gestalt it's B basically the aspect where you know the sum of these

39:31
individual things collectively create a greater meaning you know and I and I and

39:37
it's the stuff that's right here you know as I put my hand over my face it's the fact that you're still in the room

39:44
but all I can see primarily is these is what's right in front of me and I think

39:49
that's where your squishy feet your your wet socks are concerned cuz you get to that point where all I really know is I

39:56
got wet socks last I had wet socks it to this it that

40:02
and whether it led to that or not wet socks suck right so it's like I mean from a sensory just gal perspective like

40:10
it's to go back to your particular situation it's really hard to be passionate about doing the thing you're

40:16
doing when your socks are wet exactly right like you're like this is miserable but I guess I need to keep hammering you

40:22
know I guess I need to keep cons you know doing therapy with people like yeah

40:28
doing the that Mark does but it's like it's real uncomfortable this is not like I remember before you know cuz all I can

40:34
think about is these squishy socks you know yeah and I think that's yeah yeah and I and I and I

40:41
appreciate what you're sharing you know and there I'll be H full transparency

40:48
what I should say is I'm hearing where you're coming from

40:54
in that you know I have these factors in place and you know um that being said it's

41:02
it's it's interesting how we can lose sight of Hope yeah and I think it's

41:08
difficult at times to be authentic to be transparent about the wet socks yes and

41:15
I think you know that's unfortunate and and you and you know part of our you know we had an F3 individual who you

41:23
know ended his life you know that kind of thing and that's that's I suppose I I

41:29
hadn't really thought about it you know that was definitely during that time yeah you know and I you know had

41:35
different people reaching out to me to a certain degree to kind of you know process that and you know so that that

41:41
had some weight but I I think for me the sad part of that was that that

41:49
individual couldn't see or didn't want to see or admit or you

41:55
know recognize didn't want to recognize the fullness of the supports they had

42:01
you know and and I'm respecting the fact that that's difficult don't get me wrong you know so I'm going to challenge the

42:07
words want right go ahead you know yeah because it's the hand in your face thing

42:14
as much as I want to see you I can't because my hands in front of my face so I want to see those support I spread my

42:20
fingers apart a little but maybe I didn't know I could spread my hands a little bit maybe or maybe you know yeah

42:28
and and I think that's why where I'm coming from because I was I was hearing

42:33
you know at the funeral and while processing this with people you know all

42:38
of the supports that they did have yes you know what I mean and that's that's the anger that I've experiened because

42:46
it's like you know you know to the to us to on one end of the spectrum let's do

42:53
it that way you know I actually had people saying to me that selfie so yes

42:59
you know what I'm saying because you know it's like you know leaving all of

43:05
you know we he you know so I'm I'm not it's not that I'm not sensitive to the

43:11
want don't get me wrong but I think it it is like you're saying that ability

43:17
and I have to be able to I have to In This Moment I'm

43:24
also um aware of the fact that most of the people

43:30
around me wouldn't know that I experienced a dark knight at all right because I wasn't necessarily you know so

43:38
I'm here again I don't want to come across as judgmental you know in that and and it

43:45
may and I apologize if it did the pain on this side of it will cause that sure

43:51
isolating yeah like it's frustrating to be on this side and say I was right here

43:58
and uh I think uh yeah I've had you know lots of talks with Megan about this

44:04
right cuz this is this is what this is yeah you know it's like she's always right there and I know she knows that I

44:11
know that and yet sometimes it it just doesn't feel that way you know and I

44:18
think what you're saying about recognizing the supports around youh is

44:25
a discipline I agree that you have to learn and you have to practice it

44:30
doesn't come naturally it doesn't come free agreed and when you practice

44:35
disciplines sometimes they don't have like they're just doing it because you know you should sure they don't have the

44:42
the impact that you would want from them like getting up and working out there's some days you don't feel like it there's

44:48
some days it feels like you didn't gain anything you almost feel like you went backwards you did less than you did

44:54
yesterday now my underwear are wet right you know not only do I have wet feet but now I just got wet underwear by working

45:01
out in The Dewy grass you know I mean I mean seriously you know I'm hearing where you're coming from because in our

45:08
culture there isn't this instantaneous and that's even part of what I want to offer you know in this

45:14
process you know this this wasn't just a you know we're talking about a month's

45:19
long Dynamic here you know what I mean so to reverse that and and I'm hearing

45:24
exactly what you're saying you know where I'm trying to do this one thing

45:29
I'm trying to reach out and it just seems like it's it's just as

45:35
uncomfortable if not more so right than it was before so why bother your wet

45:41
underwear analogy yes it's like I had wet feet then I did the discipline of

45:46
reaching out I knew I should and the person said well I'm busy and frankly

45:51
just read the Bible or whatever just stop it yes stop it right

45:57
and so then my SL right so yeah like you said now my underwear's wet now I'm having to deal with that every day and

46:04
it's like do I try reaching well why would I do that you know why would I try that again and

46:09
again oh yeah it is a discipline and it I I think what I've learned for myself

46:16
is that it's a discipline that I still have to do sure the reaching out is is specifically a discipline for me and

46:22
sometimes it doesn't feel better as a result of doing it but I know m

46:27
over all the times that I've struggled a little bit depending on how close I was

46:33
to the river every time it wasn't a guarantee that every time I reached out was better but if you look at the

46:38
average of them all drastically better because of that you know and then also like gaining a healthy support system

46:46
right so that's the other half of the battle is like if you reach out to the wrong people you're get your hand slapped and that's going to make things

46:53
worse so you really do need to build a very tight community of people who know

46:59
how to help you and part of people knowing how to help you is you communicating exactly when you're healthy yep you know not too far from

47:07
yeah you can't wait not too healthy cuz then you can't remember what the river looks like sure right yeah and I and I

47:14
and here again if I may I'm kind of maybe this is this is how I see it you

47:19
know we talk from two ends of the same Spectrum you know in some ways and I

47:25
think you know as I would metion the other individual and I was thinking you know more about you I've been able to

47:31
recognize how you have you know started to be able to reach out more and you

47:38
know and you and um it's an honor to be in that group if you if I may that you

47:44
reach out to when you're starting to get wet feet you know what I'm saying and in

47:50
that process and you know that's when I hear that I know it's I know it's I know

47:58
it's important let's put it that way it's imperative at that point

48:07
yeah because I know what that takes for you to be able to ask for support in

48:13
that process and um yeah it's an honor to be able to support you you know and

48:20
Megan in that process when those times come because I can just recognize the

48:26
value in yeah so yeah I appreciate you you know

48:31
reaching out in those moments to do so because I know it's like the wet

48:37
under yeah now your cheeks are wet too but that's all right too you know those are those are positive things but yeah I

48:44
just I just um that's how important it is I mean I think for anyone you know to

48:51
be able to reach out to look beyond what I'm feeling what I'm see

48:57
being and have those supports in place that can basically say

49:03
Okay help me MH you know because that's you know and and and that and that may

49:10
mean you know just shutting your mouth and listening yep you know that's that

49:15
may be the help that's required at that moment the thing

49:20
people if you have someone like that in your life what you need to understand is

49:25
there's no fixing or yanking them out of the river if you want to help them your best bet is to get down and hold their

49:31
hand in the wet sure yep you might get wet too you might get a little wet yep you're probably going to be fine yep you

49:38
know um but that's if you really want them yep to com you know be comforting

49:45
to them and a resource to them that's what it looks like it doesn't look like well let me yank you up here on the

49:50
shore it's nice and dry up here get out why wouldn't you want to be up here there's rocks right just step right

49:56
there there you know yeah and it's uh and quite often I'll be on you know in the process of working with individuals

50:03
I'll use the mud puddle you know not necessarily the river yeah but you know

50:09
sometimes in the midst of the wet feet you know we find ourselves just sitting in a mud puddle yeah and sometimes you

50:15
know that's what it takes is someone coming alongside and being willing to sit in the puddle with us you know and

50:23
not and not being conc I mean like you're saying you're going to get wet either way for crying out loud we typically shower at least once a day you

50:29
know it's like we get wet all the time yeah but yet there's something about

50:35
that wetness that doesn't seem right does it we're not comfortable with it

50:41
right and yet it doesn't mean that there isn't Y and when I'm down in the puddle or the river I'm like yeah I don't blame

50:47
you stay up there you know like but just get out of my space if you're not going to come here

50:53
hard enough to not drown stop telling me how not to drown now I'm focused on what you're telling yeah yeah yeah but yeah

51:02
so back to what you were sharing though I definitely believe that there are principles that apply throughout the

51:08
gamut of um of that Continuum right and

51:14
aged reaching out having a solid support system is just so crucial and then using it is so crucial agreed

51:21
um because we do need to be able to lean we're

51:27
so as you were talking it made me just think about you know with our friend

51:32
from F3 and just kind of that whole thing um and how you look from the

51:37
outside in and go he had what he needed you know I hear you it

51:43
just reemphasizes for me the importance of that second lesson in CR which is

51:49
powerless and we want to believe or

51:55
not and I think the most important thing especially if you struggle with any kind

52:00
of mental health thing is to lean into that fact sure I'm powerless so what can

52:07
I do about that you know uh well I have to you know depend on my higher power

52:12
that's the most important thing secondarily he gives me support systems or he you know he calls us to that and

52:18
so for me that's what I've recognized is like during those times I don't have what it takes and therefore I need

52:24
others to you know hold my arms up you know pray for me listen to me be there

52:30
for you know that kind of thing and I have to do my part which is the discipline which is getting the stupid words out of my mouth you know and that

52:38
combination is a recognition of my powerlessness to say well I have to do this because I'm powerless against it

52:44
you know sure and I think sometimes that can

52:51
be that can be the struggle is thinking I should have what it takes sure or I

52:56
can figure this out right mhm where it's in me somewhere or it needs to be everyone's telling me it should be there

53:02
so I just got to keep looking and you're not going to find it it's not in you right you know and if you're at that

53:09
point where it seems as if you have no supports you know now is the time to

53:15
start building the supports because yes I re respect the fact and I think you know that was that

53:21
was part of the equation you know where my mom and the prayers were because it just seemed like that support had

53:27
shifted from my construct you know yeah and and I you know to be able to

53:33
recognize that okay maybe that's it's what I perceived but it may

53:40
not necessarily be 100% accurate yeah you know in the full context of things

53:45
and I think you know being able to have you know other supports other people you

53:51
know God first of course you know but then his word and you know and other people to be able to say okay is that is

53:58
that accurate is that you know and I think you know cuz I do I do recognize

54:04
how so often in the process of what I do you know it's

54:10
like it's unfortunate that I'm the person that most people have you know

54:16
that not most people I'm I'm an option it's unfortunate that I'm an option

54:23
where certain people are concerned because they feel feel as if they have no one else who can listen and they

54:30
don't know who else to talk to you follow me that's it's it's you mean it's an unfortunate that you're the only the

54:37
the last and only option seem yes that it seems like they've I don't get me

54:42
wrong I'm happy to be a supporter but I feel for people that are in that

54:48
situation where it seems and and it seems as if I am the only support you

54:53
know I feel for those people and I so that being said I want to put that out there to where if you feel as if you

55:01
don't have a support you know by all means talk with someone I don't care if it's a counselor or you know but find

55:09
someone as you're as you're describing you know it's that it's that that

55:15
isolation that's you know that I'll call it a lie if you will that says I can't

55:21
talk with anyone about this yeah you know or or or the other another lie at

55:27
times is no one would understand right you know right no one's experienced what

55:33
I have you know and granted no one has that lie is believing that that fact

55:40
even matters sure I shouldn't talk about it because no no one can understand how I feel means I shouldn't talk about it

55:47
sure no that's not true exactly you know yeah U cuz there are people who do understand but even the people who don't

55:55
if that makes sense doesn't mean I shouldn't talk about it exactly but you again you should be careful who and when

56:01
all that is depending yeah yeah that's good I think there's going to be people

56:08
listening to this who know exactly what we're talking about and are like H I need to do

56:15
something and then and then there's going to be the other half they go interesting you know and yeah

56:22
uh yeah it you know I'm trying to think of how to

56:28
put this I feel like there's you're thinking I'm thinking I'm

56:34
thinking it does feel when you have struggled with tumbling in the water that no one else

56:42
can understand except those who have tumbled in the water MH and I believe there is some truth to that if that

56:48
makes sense MH um that being saidh the other part of this is that you

56:56
you believe that's your reality sure and it's not mhm the reality is you just as

57:03
much you on the shore healthy not being able to hear the river they both exist and that version of you is around

57:12
the corner you know sure and when you get out there you're the same as the

57:18
people who don't understand no you also don't understand I look back a week

57:24
after kind of that jump out of depression and go who the heck was that

57:29
like it's happened so many times it's like I and then I don't mind talking about it because I feel like I'm talking

57:35
about a different person it's like that Justin really struggled man it was rough

57:40
and I don't mind talking about that version of me the the past version sure the middle of it I'm just like I don't

57:47
it's not who I want to be yeah you know I don't want to talk about it I what you know it's it's so interesting um so

57:54
anyway if you're in either if you're in the category don't understand or whatever it's a little bit foreign just put it in your pocket

58:01
because no one's above structures being removed put it in your pocket and be

58:07
thankful for the the opportunities the supports you currently have because I think in some ways that makes a

58:13
difference you know and you know be thankful for those who have taught you in some ways maybe to have some of those

58:19
disciplines you know I think that's a that's a beneficial thing we you know there's a lot of things I think think

58:26
there's a lot of unimportant things we teach our kids and there's a lot of important things that we you know don't

58:33
necessarily recognize need to be taught you know that emotional intelligence

58:38
type stuff you know it's not always that someone's there but yeah I think you know people on the other end of the

58:45
spectrum you know might be able to say yeah I don't understand yeah you know

58:51
but and speaking of teaching things and not knowing like there's a going to be there's a lot of people who were taught

58:57
how to deal with these mental Hang-Ups because their dad would go fishing with

59:04
them and they know like a good day in the water solves right like you know

59:09
those quotes sure and the Motorcycle has another one like uh they call it wind therapy okay but like you know I think

59:17
some people will never understand the depths of depression because they were given for free some tools that work sure

59:24
and they don't know well they work if that makes sense getting out on the water whatever it is you know what

59:30
whatever it is I'm just saying y um because I I like what You' said many

59:36
times which is people who go through things like you do naturally do the

59:42
things that you I don't know how do you say that there's nothing wrong with you

59:47
yeah because everything you do makes perfect sense based on what you've experienced and where you've come from

59:52
yes thank you that that was I need to write that down I Ed that so many times

59:57
in the last I just had to check to make sure that was the one you were referring to you nailed it good job Mar you said

1:00:04
your thing right uh but yeah so I like to think that like my struggle with depression is exactly how it would be

1:00:11
based on what you know the things in my life that kind of thing and um and if

1:00:16
you don't I also like to think well of course not because you were given the right tools and you know therefore uh

1:00:23
that that bottom has been capped to the dep that you can fall so it would seem yes I Al yeah

1:00:31
which is a very good point because again C if you're removing enough structures

1:00:37
sure you know you look at Joe life cycle stages yeah you know because anytime we're redefining that aspect of

1:00:44
acceptance identity security or purpose you know there's going to be you think about midlife crisis

1:00:51
sure yeah that kind of thing postpartum depression sure yeah

1:00:56
yeah it's good so those kind of things yeah no I I would dare say no one is

1:01:02
immune right let's put it that way you know yes I believe some people have been

1:01:07
gifted you know taught disciplines you know that are beneficial but yeah yep

1:01:13
yep so yes appreciate you uh you sharing from your end of the thank you for

1:01:19
sharing yours yeah no problem I know uh one person for sure will appreciate you

1:01:25
sharing more more this time okay be my wife she's always like you need to let Mark talk

1:01:31
more well no I appreciate what you share as well by all means yeah so yeah so

1:01:37
that being said by all means know that we we care about you as our listener and

1:01:43
we share these things in a desire to offer you hope and encouragement in the midst of difficult circumstances and the

1:01:51
ability to have that hope to know that the dark nights are not inde

1:01:56
that they are indeed can be followed by Bright Days bright days where we're able

1:02:02
to recognize yes that God is faithful in that process so that being said if

1:02:09
you're in the midst of a uh of a Dark Night by all means Reach Out find support you know don't be afraid to

1:02:15
contact us and you know if you're in the midst of a uh a bright Day by all means

1:02:20
enjoy it and be grateful and uh and give God thanks for that so that being said I

1:02:26
thank you Justin yeah for real though if you do want to reach out to us you can reach us at

1:02:31
us how I it.click sure or info well done

1:02:36
that's how we see it that's how we see [Music]

1:02:42
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