Mark:

Never drank never drank coffee.

Justin:

Regularly. Or ever.

Mark:

Ever. I well I’ve had I’ve had sips enough to let me know that it’s not a flavor. In other words, most from my perspective, most people don’t like coffee

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

They like creamer and sugar in their coffee, therefore they drink coffee.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But if to have

Justin:

And they like they like creamer, sugar, and caffeine.

Mark:

Yes. So

Justin:

wake up.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah And I I guess like you say, I’ve typically consider myself self-caffeinated. Yeah. You know, in that wake up process.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

It’s like I just wake up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I don’t and so yeah, I’ve never really gotten into drinking coffee. I mean I’ve tried the you know, the mochas and the the caramelattes and stuff, you know.

Justin:

Do you like that

Mark:

It’s okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But it still just has that bitter

Justin:

Yeah. My dad does not like coffee. He he would agree with you wholeheartedly. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

It’s just why would I subject myself to that bitterness, you know, when I don’t like that flavor Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

It’s kinda like the rolling your tongue thing. Like some people can roll their tongue, some people can’t. I feel like some people really that just that taste of coffee is just mm off putting.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

And others it’s complementary to their cream and sugar and others it’s Because I wonder

Mark:

I wouldn’t even necessarily waste my money on coffee ice cream.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because it’s just Yeah. Why would you choose a bitter ice cream?

Justin:

Yeah. I hear you.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. So yeah. That’s where that’s my take on coffee.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But

Justin:

my dad would agree. I I don’t translate the taste of coffee as bitter anymore. Like that’s long, long, long gone.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But Be and I think that’s just from drinking, you know, whatever. Um there are some coffees that are gross like Starbucks.

Mark:

Really?

Justin:

Yes, I do not like Starbucks. Oh wow.

Mark:

We’re gonna get we’re gonna get letters on that, I guess.

Justin:

That’s right, bring ’em on. I I think most most pure like real coffee drinkers would agree. They’re mic they’re like mixed drinks, right? Like they’re uh fancy drinks. Most people like those. I mean it’s hard not to like that much sugar.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um I like those drinks. I’m just saying like they’re pure coffee, coffee

Mark:

Okay. Well

Justin:

I don’t like and I know a lot of people also don’t like it, but also some people do and that’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah Yeah. And I think I yeah. Yeah. I I’m not a big fan of just plain sugar either when I see, you know, like to have to put a tablespoon of just granulated sugar in something reminds me of a kid when I had to put, you know, two tablespoons of sugar on Cheerios to kind of make ’em, you know Like the rest of cereals out there. But yeah, I just I I’ve I’ve stepped away from that I guess. Yeah. Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, there’s also something to be said for caffeine of course too, which you know I think a lot of people like ca the caffeine. Um I I never I mean, people could say I’m in denial and that’s fine. I I’ve never felt the effects of caffeine very much and In fact, if I drink too much coffee caffeine sometimes I’ll get sleepy. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Okay. Adverse.

Justin:

Yeah. And then also it will

Mark:

Well hang on, hang on though. You’ve just said I drink coffee to help me wake up, but I don’t

Justin:

I didn’t say that. I don’t drink it to help me with it.

Mark:

Oh you don’t?

Justin:

I like the taste of coffee. I drink black coffee. You know that. Like I don’t I don’t d I agree with you about the cream and sugar thing. Like I actually really like the taste of coffee and I enjoy the warm liquid experience too. So it’s that combo. ‘Cause I like tea sometimes, just for the warm liquor things.

Mark:

I thought you had mentioned and maybe it was prior to recording, we won’t be able to go back and, you know, do the challenge flag on it. But I thought you had mentioned that and maybe you were speaking about people in general

Justin:

I was. Well you said people only like the sugar and cream. I said also they like being able to wake up in the caffeine.

Mark:

Yeah. Okay. That’s what that was

Justin:

that’s the challenge flag right now.

Mark:

I gotcha. No, that’s fair enough. That’s this see, this is how we see it, you know? That’s how I heard it. That’s right. Yeah. So no thing no wake up effect for you. Yeah. If anything, if you drink too much, you can get dozy.

Justin:

I think the older I get the I It it does have some effects more than it did when I was younger. Um and what where I see it the most is if I drink it late at night Sometimes I’ll have a hard time sleeping. And it’s like one in five times it will so I don’t drink coffee at night anymore. Okay. Um although Every Friday night I drink coffee at Celebrate Recovery.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Just lots of it.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s my drug of choice when I go to my recovery program.

Mark:

It’s coffee.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Caffeine.

Justin:

Yeah. But by the time I like when I go to bed I I never have trouble sleeping Friday nights.

Mark:

Oh I wouldn’t doubt it.

Justin:

So yeah, I mean that there’s more to that too, probably. But uh so you know, it’s I don’t know. I don’t drink it for the the caffeine. At least that’s what I believe.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I also drink half calf. Like my pot I make every day is half caffeine.

Mark:

So would you get the would you be subject to the headaches if you go a day without it?

Justin:

That’s why I actually switched to half calf because it I would notice that Okay. I think it still can occur depending on how m like if I stick to my one pot a day, which is half calf, sure. Um, and I don’t drink it a day after or two. It doesn’t bother me.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But if I increase the if I do my pot plus some other cups And that’s kind of becomes a normal thing. I can feel the withdrawal effects, I guess.

Mark:

Yeah. Fair enough.

Justin:

Everything you w ever wanted to know about Justin’s coffee habit.

Mark:

Yes. Brought to you by how I see it. Yeah. So

Justin:

is that a good segue?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To what’s that word? To

Mark:

tetrahydrocannible cabinet Cannabinol. There you go.

Justin:

Cannibalism.

Mark:

Tetrohydrocannabinol.

Justin:

We’ve never talked about cannibalism now.

Mark:

No, we have not.

Justin:

That would be pretty cut and dried.

Mark:

I would think it would be, yes.

Justin:

That’s not what we’re talking about.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’re talking about Tetra Hydro

Mark:

cannabinol. Yep.

Justin:

Yep. Also known as

Mark:

THC.

Justin:

THC, yes.

Mark:

Otherwise known as marijuana.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Why are we talking about that, Mark?

Mark:

Well, uh it’s interesting ’cause I I think it is a polarizing topic and it was you know, as we I think there are both sides of a story of the of the ma people are gonna look at marijuana differently.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Don’t doubt about it. It’s a how I see it topic. And, you know, and I think there again, it needs to be a topic that we’re able to talk about.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s why we’re talking about it. Not that you and I are gonna necessarily be on any opposing sides of the fence type thing, but yet at the same time I’m gonna try.

Justin:

So so also, I a hundred percent agree with everything you say. You said I I wrote down some statistics from some of these articles we were reading. Okay , because it kinda makes the point for me Sure. So some of those st statistics are more than one in three Americans live in states where it’s legal to smoke pot recreationally. Sure. 538 reports. Over 60% of adults say both medical and recreational. Marijuana should use should be legal according to Pew. Uh additional thirty-one percent are okay with legalizing just medical use. Um let’s see, there’s another one here. Um Uh cannabis marijuana is the world’s most commonly used illicit drug. Polls suggest that one in eight U. S. adults smoke, and more than 40% of them have tried the drug at some point in their lifetime. a majority of states allow some form of medical marijuana use and nine states in Washington DC have now legalized recreational use. So for me to the the answer to the question of why are we talking about this is because it A lot of people are it’s a topic. It’s a topic, yeah. It’s a real thing. People are uh very people around you are using it or actively involved in the culture um whether whether we’re talking about it or not, right? And so that’s for me kind of the the thing that we kind of just have to pull our heads out of the sand a little bit and just talk about this this subject that is very much a real thing for a large chunk of people in your life Does that make sense?

Mark:

Makes perfect sense. And it and it’s interesting because I’m sure, you know, uh and granted, you know, our our range of listenership based on a age group you know, we’re not necessarily gonna be hitting, you know, that really older group. But my sense is, you know, that older group is definitely gonna have a different viewpoint on marijuana than some of our younger group. And I and I’m And I’m not saying that’s wrong. I’m just saying even in my lifetime, you know, I’ve b in other words I know that my kids or people know who to go to in their vicinity to be able to purchase marijuana today. And that was something that I never knew about.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, for me at that that same age. You follow me? It wasn’t even something that You know, I’m sure if I wanted to ask certain people, I could have found it, but it wasn’t like something that I knew exactly who to go to.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, and and even, and here again, uh maybe a little uh what do you call it, disclaimer, I am not an addictions counselor Okay, I’m just gonna put that disclaimer in there, but I definitely work with people. I’ve definitely seen how, you know, the effects of marijuana tend to affect some of my clients. You follow me? Yeah. So some of you know some of what I speak about, I’m gonna, you know, bring from some personal experience. But, you know, the disclaimer there to say, you know, I’m not an addictions counselor, but I think I see what you’re describing, you know, in my office in that process of more and more people are look and then I I just had a, you know, a couple that I was working with last night, you know, who he is very much, you know, the, if you will, the, it comes out of the ground, it’s good.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Perspective.

Justin:

Oh yes.

Mark:

You know, that kind

Justin:

of not uncommon.

Mark:

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, that’s part of that growing you know, part of that sixty percent that we see, you know, and I think, you know, legalization versus decriminalization are, you know, two other s you know words that kind of get thrown in there, but most of the time when we’re talking about states, we’re talking about legalization.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, and and therefore it becomes public access.

Justin:

Right. Yeah, and all that to say, um, I just don’t feel like most of churches most churches, most Christian cultures or whatever. Because as as the States open up and the the legality uh it’s like we no longer can depend on legality informing our mor morality, which

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh w interestingly enough, our the one of the pastors in our church just spoke on addiction a little bit this last week and he talked about this stuff too, so

Mark:

no doubt.

Justin:

Um but yeah, that that same concept. Like uh I think churches ca you know, in some ways leaned on that a little too much to just say, well it’s illegal, so there’s your answer. And um yeah. I I mean we could we can debate the merits of uh where morality and and legality you know sit in terms of whether you should obey the law, that kind of thing. That’s not really what this episode’s about. This is more about the conversation and seeing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, gave his I I thought it was it was definitely an interesting

Justin:

pastor who spoke on this, yeah.

Mark:

You know, he definitely brought up a a good point as far as in scripture. where sorcery is used, that’s where we get our for in the Greek, that’s where we get our word pharmacy. You know, pharmaceu Kea, there’s a there’s a Greek word for that. But you know, that’s that’s where the basis of that word was. And I it did I did look into that a little more, found where you know he had kind of found that And it and it had more to do with the combination of like witchcraft, spells. and drugs, you know, these things that tend to alter a pep a person ‘s being, if you will. You know, that was that was where that were it’s not just witchcraft. Yeah. Which I under which which I appreciate his point. It does include that aspect of drugs and things that alter the individual.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So, you know, I mean that being said you know, I’m gonna recognize for me personally, and I think I conclude you, you know, biblically speaking, things that alter who we are, the Bible is against. You fall the you know, those things Bible tells us not to be intoxicated, in other words, especially holds leadership, you know, in a high example of that, you know, from the Kings, you know, in Proverbs, you know. You know, more and that definitely you know, more in regards to alcohol at times, you know, when we’re talking about but when we think about that, you know, that aspect of I think the Bible is very clear. you know, that we’re not to be out of control of our bodies in a intoxicated form.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I think, you know, that is something, you know, that we can address you know, in this process, and I think it can come b i I would hear someone who can basically and I’m I’m drawing a little connection here. I can hear someone who would basically say, Okay It’s legalized in my state. I’m gonna I’m gonna go there, you know. It’s legalized in my state. And therefore the the the line is drawn the connection is drawn between alcohol and marijuana so if I can legally consume alcohol, which the Bible talks about as well. You know, I’m drawing this connection to where as long as I’m not going above this line of intoxication, you know, it should be okay for me.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, based on that similarity to alcohol. So I mean

Justin:

And I think you and I fall in the same place of Um you know, there’s not there’s not an inherently evil plant or chemical, right?

Mark:

I hear you. Right. I I yeah, I would I would dare say all things God has given us all things for life and godliness. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. I think plants all plants have a purpose. And granted, you know, I mean when I think of poppy and opium and you know, it’s like, okay, I can understand, you know, it’s the I guess in some ways I’ll look at that as as scripture refers to money You know, it’s not that money is bad. Right. It’s the love of money.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And I and I think

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And the marrow, you know, hemp and you know, this this is where, you know, it gets complicated for me personally. Because you know I recognize

Justin:

it is complicated. I guess that’s what I wanted it.

Mark:

Yeah. Because I’m I’m recognizing that, you know, there was a whole hemp industry, if you will, that was Uh basically coincided with the cotton industry. But because of the effects of marijuana and these other things, hemp fall the fell aside. In other words, it’s lost its share of the market uh at much much much at the same time as as prohibition. From my perspective, you know, but that’s that doesn’t mean that, you know, hemp, you know, marijuana, that, you know, that corded part of it isn’t just as viable as cotton. You follow me? From it’s

Justin:

I’m trying.

Mark:

Oh, well from its original source. In other words, when we look at a plant as a plant Marijuana has other byproducts that are usable. You know, the plant itself besides its intoxicating.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

particles. THC. Does that make sense? Yeah. So yeah, I’m in agreement with you that it’s not that evil plant. It’s what we do with it that tends to lean towards what can become Evil.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, there’s another verse uh when as we’re talking about verses, you know, um and there’s another verse about not being enslaved, like you know, avoid anything that will enslave you, you know, and so I think that might be the most to me the m one of the more relevant scriptures in regards to anything that’s addictive, whether it’s alcohol or sure marijuana or whatever, is the enslaving is the is very problematic. And then like you said, the intoxication is very problematic. Uh both of those things by nature are not easy to delineate, to put to to draw a clear line to say this is where this is where this is when you look w this is when you’re drunk and this is when you’re not.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

This is when you’re enslaved, this is when you’re not. Yep. Right?

Mark:

Yep. Um

Justin:

Yeah, one one of the articles we read was by John Piper. Um I read a couple by him and his perspectives kind of shifted in many ways. It was a little hard to pin down what he was saying, but one of the things he said very clearly was that We’re not meant to live by rules, we’re meant to live by the spirit.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I love that because that’s

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

If there’s anything I wanted to be heard out of this episode would be like, listen to the spirit. Like

Mark:

Yeah. And I another thing I appreciated about that specific article, you know, we tend to think, you know, it’s like there’s this and I and I think there is a Maybe onslaught is too strong a word, but you know, when we think about states and legalization, I’ll I’ll quite often hear, well, North Carolina won’t be long. You know, before you know, but in that in that process, I think having the conversations is also beneficial because, you know, he was in that article he mentioned how Utah had actually, you know, um there were individuals in the state of Utah, religious individuals, if I may say so, you know, church affiliated individuals. Um Who basically fought to make sure that Utah wasn’t one of those states that legalized marijuana. So I think, you know, that’s another advantage to have in these conversations. And you know, even in in what I was looking at it, you know, it was funny to kind of uh uh recognize yeah I I l I like researching, I like reading articles, but it’s like I’m always calling into question where a source comes from. Yeah. You follow me. It’s

Justin:

That’s why I like reading so many so many and from different so ’cause yeah, you get the you kinda get a sense of where you where you are in the middle of all these voices and you can k Yeah. Because it was funny.

Mark:

I I I wanted to kind of see, you know, some of a lot of the art I I I looked into Colorado. You know, as, you know, a part of that beginning of the industry, if you will. You know, and there was a ton of stuff, you know, based on 2014. You know, when it when it really came out and they were talking about, you know, the aspects of how it was supposed to be this wonderful thing and generate, you know, tax dollars and you know that and it really never met that goal and it was funny we I this I hadn’t heard about this before but you know we hear about you know people who are anti you know cattle or anti because of the the water usage and and all that and it was interesting because When Colorado first did that, they recognized that there was a ton of individuals who started growing at home. And they they realized that they were having problems with the electrical grid because people were, you know, having lamps and you know to where it it was supposed to lower you know, this, you know, uh what do you call utility costs. It was supposed to lower yeah, lower the utility cost, but people were using more electricity to grow their plants and they were and it’s like the amount of water that it took

Justin:

really

Mark:

to to grow was it was like all those all those you know predictions were off. But it was funny ’cause uh in the article I happened to be reading from the University of Colorado, so like you say, I took that with a little bit of They uh the the title of the article was um Colorado’s uh Mellowing Marijuana Usage. Well, and the interesting part was it um They w it was recently, as in 2023, they were they were citing that the it was a $1. 3 billion industry. and 2023. Uh 2022 is a 1. 7 billion dollar industry And the interesting part was it went to in 2021, it was a $2. 2 billion industry. So they were showing that You know, as a decline, but it also there was no mention of what else was going on in 2021. Which was

Justin:

after COVID.

Mark:

COVID. You know, that whole, you know, that whole it made me think about it. It’s like, okay, yeah

Justin:

, everybody’s sitting at home. Let’s try out these plants we’ve been growing.

Mark:

Everybody’s home. You know? It just made me think about it in that context.

Justin:

It’s trying to cope with the world going crazy.

Mark:

Yes. You know, so well, you know, the world’s going in a handbasket here. Let’s just mellow for a bit, you know. So it really cre i I I I wasn’t I would have loved to have seen it on like a you know, a chart. Yeah, you know, a flow chart, you know, to be able to show that spike if you will. But I just thought that was interesting that there was no mention of, you know, the COVID epidemic and all that went along with, you know, two thousand twenty, two thousand twenty one, that kind of thing, but

Justin:

I th I think that’s uh so interesting in terms of all the numbers and stuff because The other thing too is there’s there’s always the shiny and new syndrome, right? So you know, the whole state turning and growing ’em theirselves and all that, you know, just kind of the impact that wasn’t anticipated was um to me uh I think partly easily exp partly easily explained by that shiny and new and like oh let’s I’ve never done marijuana my whole life but now it’s legal let’s let’s Let’s do this right. Let’s grow a plant. Let’s you know, whatever. I don’t know. I could see how you anticipate just the normal usage that’s currently happening, but now it’s being used through a legal channel. And I think that’s mm pr you know, obviously not what happened, it sounds like. Um but I I also don’t think that that’s not necessarily a s a sustainable Th ark if that makes sense. I think you’ll you’ll get some people who are now like this is their thing, they’re addicted. Whatever. May maybe addicted, maybe not, but it’s their thing Um, but I also think there’d be a lot of people who just go back to life like you said. They have to go back to work. They have to whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Yeah. A lot of the thing the the science, the math, the numbers, the stats around marijuana is just so limited because of the illegal nature of it for so long that there wasn’t as much science being done about it, there wasn’t as much statistics being done about it, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um so it’s interesting to even read some of these articles and say We w we’re starting these randomized trials on you know, th they’ve been started, but like we need years and years before we can kind of trust the data.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So that’s also interesting to me considering how long this plant’s been used for it’s like how are we what have you guys been doing? Like why why didn’t you start studying this a long time ago? That that’s surprising to me that there’s not nearly as many studies on it.

Mark:

Well I think in some ways it was part of that stigma. You know, we’re not gonna study a illegal drug necessarily. Who you know

Justin:

maybe access to like access to people sure who are willing to you know just Access to the drug itself, just access in general would be very

Mark:

study, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s and it’s just interesting, you know Mm and I and I uh I I don’t know, maybe you heard the maybe you read this, maybe you didn’t. I thought it was interesting too, because they um uh in in the research that I was reading it and like you say some of those were the earlier days, but they uh they talked about it creating its own black market, if you will, because of the fact that it was a state’s issue. It wasn’t there wasn’t federal you couldn’t use federal money. You know, in other words, you couldn’t use There was a that connection to federal money that because it wasn’t legal federally, you couldn’t access federal resources. You follow me? And so in some ways people were going around and it made it its own it made its own black market, if you will And it was just kind of an interesting thing to see about how, you know, even even as far as when it was legalized, like um The postal industry like took a major spike because people were actually shipping marijuana out of Colorado because they could legally b so that was a part of that industry, if you will, that basically said, Okay, yeah, if we sh you know, the uh if I can purchase it legally you know, but I can ship it illegally, I can still, you know, reap a income from this. You know, and it was just kind of interesting how they talked about it as far as, you know, the some of the adverse effects that No one would have predicted. And it just or or maybe there were those that did predict, but you know, it was caught they, you know, definitely kind of a caught off guard. And I think and had the other part too where um A lot of the states around Colorado, well I don’t even think Colorado itself was prepared from an addict an addictions type, you know, be it mental health dynamic, and the states around them were definitely kind of flooded you know, with this dynamic of addictions counseling now. Really. That yeah, they really had a you know, as we look at it, you know, and I mean, granted, these are some of the things that kind of go b in the back of my mind, you know, when I’m You know, talking with a a 22-year-old college student that basically says, hey, you know, this is just something I’m gonna do for the next two years, and you know, and yet I realize that’s that can be arrogance, you know, on that on that part, you know, to be able to say, yeah, I can cut this out whenever I want to, but Currently, this is how I wrap up the end of every day.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. And it’s, you know, it’s like that’s that’s the part that, you know, and the more I see Yeah, it needs to be legalized the more I’m, you know, recognizing, okay, yeah. Not necessarily sure the benefits are there. Not saying I minimize what the chemical, you know, is able to do for those who struggle with pain.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? That was another part I think of uh the Piper articles you know, that basically says, yeah, you know, there are, you know, medicinal, you know, values to this that help people with pain and yet you know, a lot of the industry, if you will, isn’t regulated from a um a medical standpoint. Right. You follow me. It’s more recreational in its usage by far.

Justin:

Yeah. I I guess for me, like so I drink coffee every day, you know, and caffeine is my drug of choice. It’s definitely a drug. It’s definitely mind altering. Sure.

Mark:

Right? Sugar itself.

Justin:

Sugar itself, yep. So there’s a continuum as always in most of our conversations of what addiction looks like and the impacts it has on your life. Sure. And I’m gonna say like I’m more probably the most ignorant person about marijuana I i that I know.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

I don’t know the negative impacts. I don’t know the po I mean, I’ve done reading obviously. I can see that, but like Uh I know a lot of people like y like you who do it regularly and they seem normal

Mark:

smoke marijuana. You’re not referring to me doing marijuana regularly.

Justin:

Uh, do you? I don’t know. Probably not.

Mark:

A lot of people like you who do it regularly, so that’s where

Justin:

No, I I know a lot of people like you know a lot of people. I know a lot of people like Mark who do it regularly. That’s funny. That’s not what I was saying in case you uh

Mark:

But no, I appreciate it. I appreciate it

Justin:

to clarify. I guess my question is like I don’t believe coffee’s wrong. I believe just like anything, if you’re enslaved to it, it’s wrong. You should address that. You should let the Holy Spirit say, hey, chill out on the coffee. T switch to half calf, maybe you know, chump. You know that that was what I heard.

Mark:

You know, was that what you heard?

Justin:

Yeah. Well not chump, but you know. Maybe chump, I can’t remember. Scott

Mark:

referred to us as a jump. Lovingly. Lovingly.

Justin:

Pat on the top of the back of the head. Come on, chump.

Mark:

There you go. Okay.

Justin:

Uh I th I think sometimes God operates in that way. Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And anyway, that in and alcohol’s another one, right, where it’s like, um, you know, we just discussed that on Sunday. There’s no clear Um, you know, scriptures that say do not drink alcohol and people who say Jesus turned water into grape juice are just, I mean, I believe in denial Um I think it was legit alcohol. I think there’s a reason the the party dude said this is the best I’ve ever had. Yep. You know, that kind of thing it wasn’t because of this is really good grape juice. Most people save the good grape juice for the end when everybody’s had enough grape juice. No, everyone’s intoxicated, so they save the the worst for last. That’s yeah

Mark:

not being grape juice. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s a little silly to go grape juice, but that’s That’s what I grew up on, right? It was grape juice and just put that denial uh you know m mask on saying it’s grape juice, grape juice.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh But anyway, so I you know, alcohol obviously has n terribly negative consequences. In fact, a lot of these articles I was reading was saying, um, you know, THC and marijuana’s impacts are n d barely compared to the negative aspects of alcohol in terms of h what it can do to your body, but also addictive c capacity. I gotcha. Um and also uh impacts the culture around you know the all the culture, that kind of thing. Um again, not advocating for marijuana use or anything like that. I’m just saying like um we just we g we put it in its own category and I think it needs to be fit.

Mark:

Sure. And I think part of that proper judgment is looking at what it does as a whole to the majority of people.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know what I mean? Because I as you’re d drawing the connection to alcohol, I’d agree, you know, with everything you’re saying. And I think we can also draw some of those connections to nicotine, smoking if you will. Yep. You know, you know, the ag or you know, vaping if you want. But you know, seeing how that transformation, you know, has occurred. and being able to recognize that , you know, everybody has that uncle that smoked, you know Marlboroughs from the time they were fourteen and they lived to be ninety. Yeah. So there’s gonna be these People that you know we’re gonna be able to point to and say, well, this person uses it and it didn’t create an issue.

Justin:

It was Fine.

Mark:

Yes. It was fine. And yet that’s not gonna be the story of everyone.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

For the majority of people, you know, that kind of thing. And I It’s interesting ’cause um another individual ‘s uh he would fit that category of a, you know, of a Not a ex-hippie, but you know, he was he was that grew up in that era smoking the marijuana, you know, to the point of Basically saying, hey, if my kids want to learn about smoking marijuana, I’ll go buy it and they can try it in front of me That way, you know, there’s not an issue. Now his wife on the other hand was on the other end of the spectrum. It’s like, no, you’re not doing that with our children.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing, which I completely understand. And yet, you know, listening to him today You know, he’s also recognizing the difference between what he used to smoke back then and what’s available today is a far different dynamic, you know, as far as his concerns are more about the lacing effects that we’ve noticed over time, which, you know, in this and and I think, you know, there is a difference between like a pharmaceutical Dynamic and you know, but what the average person can purchase, there are no controls or regulations over you know that’s That’s a that was another concern that he expressed as I’m having these, you know, conversations with people. It’s like, yeah, th it’s not the same thing that we were doing years ago. You know, so where where I it’s another aspect where that age, you know, can tend to view my view change my viewpoint on something. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, I did live through that era. And, you know, and I probably did smoke too much, but yet At the same time, I’m not sure I have the same he was willing to admit, I don’t have the same view today that I did back then when I was raising our children. You know, and I and I valued that. You know, it’s like he was able to say, Okay, yeah, some of the circumstances have changed. And I think that’s what we have to I think both sides need to be able to recognize, okay, yeah How do we have these conversations? Yeah. Knowing that it’s gone from an illegal substance in many ways, you know, to a

Justin:

Pseudo-legal.

Mark:

Yeah. You know, depending on the state. You know, that kind of thing. So yeah, being able to have the conversation.

Justin:

Yeah. And it yeah, it’s not even fully legal in the sense that it’s not uh federally legal. Sure. You know

Mark:

exactly. It’s a state which is issue.

Justin:

Also very interesting to me as I read these, it’s like how does that I think, you know, obviously the federal side of things has chosen to let the state’s override stand, right? Yeah. And I think that’s I think overall that’s a good thing um because of states’ rights and the way that the country is made, but it’s just very interesting. Um but yeah I I definitely Uh yeah, I think that’s the struggle for me. Um again, not because I want to go out and smoke marijuana, but just like this conversation is like, well I hear what people are saying about it’s bad for you, it can it has these negative impacts. I also hear people say it has these potential positive impacts. I also hear the medical side, right? And so I I for me I kind of separate the medical side uh completely over to the side and say that that to me is fine because if we’re gonna prescribe bikin to people

Mark:

sure

Justin:

uh we also should be have the option to prescribe medical marijuana

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Right. Like there’s so much dangerous things that we prescribe to people. Way worse.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I I’m like if that can be part Yeah. If that can be part of some sort of prescribed thing. Fine. Like if a doctor could he says I think in your case this would actually be helpful. That’s you know, that’s what medicine is. So for me that line is pretty easy to draw and I I have no problem with that as far as that being um a legalized thing. From my perspective, that’s how I see it. Uh it really just kinda comes down to the recreational thing and how like, you know I enjoy cigars once in a while. You know? Mm-hmm. And I enjoy it because I like sitting on the porch and smoking a cigar. It has this overarching feeling that comes with it of chill.

Mark:

I got you.

Justin:

And um I’ve had some of my favorite conversations with people over a cigar. Like there’s just Something about sitting on a porch looking out together and having a conversation and being tied to the porch through something. the fact that for that period of that smoke, you know, like you you this is what you’re doing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? You’re not going in the house. You know, you’re not You’re not driving, you’re not whatever. This is this is you specifically sit down to smoke that cigar and enjoy that time.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and So there’s some I I I to me

Mark:

It’s a bonding experience.

Justin:

It’s a bonding experience. Um it’s a chill experience. I don’t know. I enjoy it. You know what I’m saying? And again For anyone who’s afraid I’m saying I’m gonna go out and buy marijuana and smoke it. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying like how is it different? Explain it to me. Like how how should I be more cautious about marijuana? Or is it the same? And like you you know, people who are saying, you know, marijuana’s evil would look at the cigar thing and say the exact same thing. But I d I don’t feel like that’s the case. I feel like there’s uh stronger stigma Can you speak to that? Is it you know what I mean?

Mark:

I d I I think I think they’ll uh here again. Can a person, in my opinion, can a person use marijuana like you use a cigar?

Justin:

Right. Can they?

Mark:

Can they one usage type limited in its you know not one after the other type thing you know in that process you know in its in its multiple forms of usage you know if you will Um, can a person do what you did? Yes, I believe a person can. You know, is it is it likely that that person will have a greater addictive effect with marijuana than your cigar, I would dare say yes. You follow me in that context. When I when I’m And and here again, I um I see a variety of people, I guess is what I’m saying. Um I have, you know, 20 year olds who are in college basically saying, yep, I’m a stoner, you know, and I’m gonna be a stoner for the next two years and I’m just gonna come out of this and I’m gonna look back at my college experience you know, like my father and say, yep, that was part of that experience. Now it’s all behind me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Now I can’t guarantee that for that individual. You follow me. But yeah, I can also recognize he’s looking at his father and recognizing that was a part of his experience, you know. And that’s not to say that You know, his father went on and his you know, he knows that his father no longer smokes. That kind of thing. You follow me? That’s his example.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And yet I also know other people who are who are fighting tooth and nail to try to stop because they have also recognized that there is a there was a mellowness, you know, if you will, that w um chill It did offer a chill. A lot of the people that I talk with, you know, started using marijuana to basically take that edge off as they describe it. You follow me? And I’m gonna say I’m gonna say that 60% that we’re talking about in some ways, you know, that are in favor, basically recognize that yes, it had that effect. And yet when I speak with their spouses, you know, that that uh that desire continued So now they do need to use it more to have the same effect. You follow me? That’s that’s just the reality of it. And you know Here again, I’m saying that’s I’ll say two thirds. You follow me, that just seemed that it’s like and and a lot of times some of those individuals do connect, you know, like for you on the porch, you know, they connect alcohol with marijuana. In other words, it’s something they like to do together, you know, for its effect. You know, and I think, you know, that makes it, you know, because we’ve we’ve always heard or, you know, we’ve routinely heard of, you know, gateway, you know, peace. That I think so many people get concerned, you know, is it a gateway drug? Is it not a gateway drug? I don’t think you can argue the fact that it can be a gateway. Mm-hmm. You follow me.

Justin:

Oh yeah. Just like smoking uh anything can you know?

Mark:

Sure. Yep.

Justin:

I feel like that enhances the the gatewayness of it. Yep. Um anyway.

Mark:

Yeah, but but I think part of that gateway is also I’m also going to seek

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yes, because I’m looking for that same effect that I once had that has become diminished as you’re sharing over time. That’s that’s my primary concern, you know, with people. And you know, and I know individuals who have, you know, who have quit and, you know, they just they just w one individual, you know, loves Colorado for the skiing. But it’s like man, I have to really be careful about going back there because it is such a you know, it’s so prevalent for me to go to Colorado for the things that I enjoy skiing, hiking in the mountains, but yet I find myself using when I go back there. And, you know, and it’s like I don’t want to use anymore because I see how it has affected that that desire for mellowness, you know, that I saw you know, it just it became the thing that I had to have. And it’s like I I couldn’t, in their viewpoint, you know, I couldn’t maintain my focus and it there again, you know, people will use drugs to, you know, combat ADHD, you know, that kind of thing. You know, yeah. One of those articles I believe talked about um the guy that wanted to take up pipe smoking because he recognized nicotine helped him focus when he did uh smokeless tobacco you know and it’s like Okay, you know, are there it was kind of to the point, are there other ways to accomplish this that we know aren’t as cancer producing, you know, in that in that process of, you know, smokeless tobacco or pipe tobacco or, you know, the adverse effects. We I think we can become single minded, you know, or, you know What do you call that when you train track? You know, it’s like uh myopic, if you will, you know. I mean it, you know, yeah, one track mind. That’s what I’m looking for. You know, is that aspect, you know There’s one advantage to this, and that is greater than all the other, you know, adverse effects or disadvantages of it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. And I think that’s where we have to look at these things from my perspective is how I see it. We have to look at the entirety. We have to look at the whole.

Justin:

That’s good, yeah.

Mark:

To be able to say, okay Is this beneficial, you know, uh civilly? Is this beneficial individually? You know, as as we’re promoting You know, or as we’re allowing this legislation, if you will, to occur. That’s my little soapbox. I’ll step back down.

Justin:

Yeah, so um I’ll just be candid and say I think my biggest reason to avoid it, you know, like besides ‘Cause again, I’m I’m really just not a fan of avoid it because people say it’s bad or you know or yeah like it like I want Yeah, I want I want to hear what the spirit’s saying about it. Like you know, and I think uh a lot of the arguments you’re making uh are very much aligned with that kind of thing in terms of um You know, can it enslave you and is there a risk of that? And what are the benefits versus the you know the the negatives? Um, is it something that you really need? Right? Like is a is there a reason to to s to do that, that kind of thing. Um but for me I think the biggest concern would be just that with my struggle with depression, the concern would be that helps that and I need that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right. And that’s that’s the thing that for me is the most uh you know the the biggest thing that makes me say it needs to be avoided, you know. Is what is the risk of that, of it. Like, wow, when I when I do that it kinda just s r solves all of that.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And it’s like, well That sounds like uh whenever whenever that sentence is said, you’re so close to addiction, right? Like I think that’s

Mark:

that line isn’t far away.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right. And so even with smoking a cigar, like, um, I try to avoid doing it when I feel bummed out. as a way that you know, like for me it’s it’s a celebratory thing.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

It’s an enjoyment on the porch. It’s a opportunity to like kick back kind of thing. If it if I feel like maybe that would make me feel better. I just don’t.

Mark:

No, I hear you. That’s good self-awareness.

Justin:

Well, and uh because I think for me, I’ve been part of celebrate recovery for so long, you just hear those stories, and that’s like one of the most common denominators is like that solved my problem. Yes, I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t want these things to be uh that. Um but I again that would be my biggest fear is that that it would it would trigger that, it would cause that, it would because I think B at the but at the same time, if there’s some sort of medicinal uh prescription for that for people who are struggling with depression, and it is medicinally provided in in uh dosages that are approved by the doctor and you know whatever. I’m not saying that’s bad either. No, I gotcha. In the same sense that I don’t think taking the medication they give you to help with depression is bad.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right. And if you read the um like side eff or like side effects of marijuana, that’s like can ca can cause depression, can cure depression, right? Like both things. Right. A lot of prescription drugs for depression say exactly the same thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? No, I agree. Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah.

Mark:

I agree. I mean like like your example with coffee You know, it’s like coffee, caffeine doesn’t have the same effect, you know, that it does. I mean, Ritalin, you know, was an ADHD, you know, and it’s like uh the caffeine, you know, that was an early medication. Caffeine was actually used in the same way to treat ADHD. early on because some kids actually mellowed with caffeine. You know, that kind of thing to where, you know, that’s that’s and I Even in one of the classes that we have now, you know, we’re talking about um the the the how we love class, you know, we talk about this attachment theory, if you will. And, you know, and I had one, you know, uh, she’s actually, I believe, a uh nurse practitioner or PA, you know, and she was saying, you know, well, how do you how do you fix this? attachment dynamic, you know, and it’s like, you know, that’s a he said she and her view her next words were, because I know you can’t do it with a pill. You know, because my industry has tried. You know, and it’s like we try, and yes, medication works in some cases for some things. But there are some things that, you know, medication doesn’t necessarily cure. And, you know, and let alone what it how it alters the individual. you know, to be on and here again, I’m not anti-medication. Right. Don’t get me, but we have to be able to recognize that We can’t say this is a one size fits all perspective, a cure-all, like you’re saying, you know, to be able to make it go away.

Justin:

And even under doctor supervision with uh prescriptions, um, you know, they they call it practicing medicine, right? And so what what the way it works is we’re gonna try this. We’re gonna try this at this dosage for a period of time and we’re gonna monitor it.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um and so there’s built in accountability, there’s built in um moderation, right?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Uh and then in some cases they’ll up the dosage, they’ll lower the dosage, they’ll change to a different prescription. Yeah. So like um i in in you know the good doctors are doing that, right? And the bag bad doctors who don’t have time saying, well just up it up it a little bit, it should be fine. You know, and like Um it but yeah, I think the the there’s a the key component there is moderation and accountability.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And I think that’s uh a key component to living a a Christian life

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s moderation and accountability. Well, self-control comes through moderation and accountability. I feel like uh yeah, self-control is a fruit of the spirit. And I think But I think sometimes we think of it as something that’s uh uh a single person effort like self-control is something I have to do myself to get better at controlling myself. And I don’t see it as a lot of people.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

As as as someone who’s been involved in a recovery ministry for years and years and years and years. Sure I recognize self-control comes through a group effort. It comes through moderation and accountability. You know, I feel like those things are what provide the tool set to uh increase my self-control.

Mark:

Sure. Um And I think the fruit of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit offers that too, through other people, through relationships. Yeah, I appreciate you you bringing up the points as far as that, you know, it’s not about us being able to do it. And at times, I think, you know, like your example with the with the cigar, you know, it can tend to lead towards Isolation and independence, you know, that from a recreational standpoint, I can just go and do this and it cures me. And I think that is a dangerous place to be.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in that in that process. Yeah.

Justin:

I was also thinking about when you were talking about the medication side of things. Um You know, and and even caffeine for kids with ADHD or whatever. Um there’s a reason medicine exists, right? Like we know that. I mean we know that. Um and the idea is Um there’s an outsized effect on your body with this particular issue and if we can limit that outsized effect to kind of be more normalized I think that’s kind of an overgeneralized idea of what the uh what medicine is attempting to do is minimize the outside effects of these negative things on your body through medication. so that you can go about life normally.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? So it’s not meant to dull your sense of um Sadness, for instance, when it comes to depression medication to where you can’t feel sadness. If it is doing that too much, you you’ve gone beyond what the intention of good medicine is supposed to do. It’s a produ supposed to get you back to a normalized human experience to as much as possible, right?

Mark:

Yep. Uh most medications from a depressive standpoint tend to minimize your high and low end. Okay. You follow me? It it does create that to where that’s the that’s the difficult part for most people on medication Is yes, it keeps them from going too low, but it will also moderate the high end as well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It kind of takes out those peaks and valleys. and kinda makes it a little more so I mean that’s you know it’s that’s why most people don’t necessarily like their medication because You know, yeah. Yeah. I’ve I’m missing the the the higher end, the joy, the excitement at times when I’m keeping that low end at bay. But you know, for people who, you know, may suffer from legitimate bipolar yeah. That’s you know, that’s what you’re looking, you’re looking to take away that manic Where you know I’m just up for three days straight, you know, wallpaper in the bathroom. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. Or, you know, versus the bottom where it’s like I’m in bed three days straight.

Justin:

And you can see why uh the worst the extremes are in terms of highs and lows, so you get to the bipolar uh that’s a continuum, right? Of like, whoa, really high, really low. You can see the more high you’re able to get the more uh difficult it is to accept that uh medication to prevent that. Because essentially you are superhuman.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

For those three days or whatever. I hear you. You are capable of things beyond any normal human for that small amount of time. But then the dip comes and you are now sub

Mark:

yes

Justin:

human, right? Like your your abilities are below Way below the normal human experience.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And so for most people, that’s a worthwhile trade. It feels that way.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Ninety percent of their time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

In their lowest lows It doesn’t, of course. That’s when they go to the doctor. That’s when they want it solved, you know.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um that’s a whole nother thing. Uh sure. But the back to the medication thing and your point about it does limit the highs and lows. I guess uh I just wanna clarify what what I what I was saying, which is I I think the goal of medicine is just to limit the outsize negative effects.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But we’re dealing with substances that God created, not us as humans, and so therefore, you know, like some of these medications are gonna impact the highs. I maybe that wouldn’t be the intention of the drug. But it’s just part of the package deal, right? Like sorry, this is this is gonna have that effect.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um and I think again, I think that’s where the accountability of doctors in saying like let’s work with this, let’s figure out the dosage that uh maybe it doesn’t stop the the lows as much as we’d really like, but it but you’re also still able to experience your life and so maybe there’s there’s a level of dosage that keeps you from dying.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And I think a lot of medication is like How much dosage can we give you to keep you from dying? You know, like heart heart blood pressure medicine, right? Yep. Like just enough to keep you from dying. If we give you too much, then it can cause other negative side effects or whatever.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

That’s a lot of

Mark:

and well and I think there is another part of it from my perspective too. I as as we’re thinking as I tend to think about the recreational usage, okay Um, for me personally, those who struggle with some kind of pain are the ones that I tend to think about most.

Justin:

Okay, yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. Yeah. That there’s you know, and granted

Justin:

you think about most empathetically, you mean? Is that what you’re yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Em empathetically, and you know, and I and I realize there are those um you know and from who are dealing with cancer. You follow me? From those, you know, did there there’s some kind of pain. There’s some kind of, you know Very similar, you know, when I think of cancer, very similar to someone who might get, you know, in the later, you know, stages of cancer, who might, you know, get morphine.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? That kind of thing. I you know, that’s that’s where I have empathy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, for a person’s individual. And yet there is that part of me on the other end of that spectrum, okay? that basically says, okay, but have you tried anything else? Have you actually sought out a PT, you know, a physical therapist? to be able to exercise those muscles, stretch that part of your body, you know, because a lot of it comes to lower back. You know, when I when I’m From my perspective, what I’m dealing with people, you know, it’s my knees hurt, my lower back hurts, you know, these things that have worn I’ve worn my body out, maybe in some ways. You follow me? So and I think I think from my perspective, as I talk with other people, you know Uh I I think some of it is part of the aging process, which I think we have an issue with culturally. You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

to be able to recognize. And then some of it I think comes back to that aspect of, okay, are there alternatives or has this become my silver bullet, if you will. My coping mechanism that basically is gonna fix it for me. Mm. And yet there’s st I mean, we all know people who, you know, may have even been scheduled for back surgery. They go see you know, a chiropractor that offers us, you know, a stretch or a, you know, and they don’t necessarily have to have the surgery anymore. You know what I’m saying? Because y they have they’ve been able to lengthen the spine in such a way that created more space between the vertebrae, you know, that were pinching nerves before. You know, that’s That’s how I’m looking at a lot of the the industry, if you will, from a from a promotional standpoint. And I think, you know, we have to be able to create healthy alternatives as well. Yes, they may not be as you know, fancy if for lack of a better word, you know what I’m saying? Yeah. As as attractive. If I you know I have to I have to work hard. Yeah. You know, to do the stretches every day. You know, I can’t just necessarily sit down on my couch and and use marijuana. Yeah. You know, which is far easier. Yeah. You know, that that kind and that’s not a judgmental statement on my part. I don’t wanna, you know, that I’m saying a person that chooses that option you know, is somehow lesser. I’m not. But you know, I’m I want to be able to recognize and and granted, like you’re saying I am I am not anti-medication at all, you know, but I am to a point where I would say yes Medication with therapy is a better option.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because if I can learn some skills, if I can, you know get some abilities that you know with journaling or something else to help me process these things. And I think, you know, a lot of the way a lot of another complete topic, but I think a lot of the health issues we have have to deal with the way we, you know, process emotion.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I mean, there’s definitely connections there, you know, that And and here again, I’m I’m not going down that rabbit trail. I’m pulling back.

Justin:

We got lots of them. This is

Mark:

So yeah, that’s that’s kinda you know I wanna r at the end of the day, like you shared I want to recognize I have empathy for people who desire to use from a pain circumstance. You know, they are going through something and it helps minimize. And that’s where I’m saying, okay, yeah I understand that being prescribed and, you know, those kind of things, the benefits thereof. And yet, you know, that is more towards the medicinal. a little further away from the recreational. And that’s where my concerns become is when we when we self-medicate, that’s a that’s a dangerous thing to do in any shape or form from my perspective.

Justin:

I agree I think uh it’s even the idea to to get therapy and to go to physical therapy to do these things um where there’s a medical professional involved is a privileged expectation.

Mark:

Uh I hear you.

Justin:

Not everyone is gonna have access to those things. Um So uh and I th I think we’re in the same place of just empathy and I think I think that’s a big part of what I would desire out of this episode too, is just that as you go about your life, recognize that this is a very real thing that people around you are dealing with, whether they’re using or they have a brother’s using and they have a you know, whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And have grace for people and like Um empathy, you know, in the sense that uh someone is self-medicating, and you m you might be s tempted to say, yeah, self-medication is a bad thing. Therefore I judge you. You know. Yeah, but m maybe they need medication. They need to be medicated. They’re doing it themselves. They shouldn’t be. Mm-hmm. But they need help.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

How can you help them? You know, versus standing on the pedestal and saying you’re bad or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um and in some cases it’s just purely rec recreational or whatever. It’s just it is what it is and in at the same time as judgment helping that situation. No

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

No, I don’t think it is. I think you know, ha being able to have conversations that that say, Hey, tell me more about that. Like, why do you do that? Like what’s the What’s the story there? Uh do you have any concerns about the legal implications? Like if you were to get caught, like have you thought through that? You know, being able to have those conversations in a non-judg judgmental way is gonna be valuable And as it becomes more legalized and that kind of thing, like we need to be able as believers to help disciple each other and hold each other uh each other accountable. Um, in a way that’s not like black and white, like Oh, now I just realize my friend smokes marijuana. I d that’s a paradigm I I can’t grok and I don’t know if we can be friends. And you just start avoiding ’em because you don’t it’s like That’s not who I thought you were and you know you I don’t think I like you anymore. No, I do. Um I think it’s just really important that we start thinking about these things in a way that says, Well, you know, what would Jesus do in this circumstance? You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I can’t imagine walking, you know, I I think he would address the hard issues like he always did, you know, and Anyway.

Mark:

And I and I think, and I I want you to know, I mean, as far as I’m concerned, I appreciate what you’re sharing, you know, about my perspective being um Would what’d you call it? Not hierarchical, but when uh not elitist. What what’s the word? Um privileged. Privileged.

Justin:

Privileged.

Mark:

You know, I respect what you’re sharing, you know. Not everyone has access to a PT to be able to talk to or, you know, an a a privilege. I I appreciate that that point. And I think in some ways I respect the challenge thereof it because I can recognize that, yeah, by God’s grace, I do have a lot of people that I personally can draw from. you know, to be able to garner some advice, some and I and I from my perspective on the other side of that, I also recognize that part of that is the other end of not living in isolation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Yeah. Because I think so often our tendency is to head towards that isolation. And from my perspective too, I don’t I don’t think, you know, as I don’t think the body, if you will, Christ designed for the body. is an elitist or, you know, um privileged perspective. You know, to where I believe, you know, when we engage in the body, I believe God has the ability to bring other people around me. who can advise me in ways that doesn’t necessarily cost me a lot. You know, it may cost me something. Yeah. But you know, it’s not like your average, you know, doctor is gonna say, well you have to go you know Some of the doctors, some of the PTs I know are are, you know, are the most approachable people, you know, to be able to say, hey, I’m dealing with this. Can you help me? You know, and I think, you know those people are available. Let’s put it that way. It’s gonna take some effort. It’s gonna take some work, you know, but I think there are those people who are out there and and that’s just part of the body as I see it.

Justin:

Yeah, like you said, it just it does take some work to fig to find support.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Because that’s really what we’re talking about, is support, you know? And um There are places that offer support. There’s so many drug and addiction centers. In you know, we think of I think it’s easy to think of those places as like for people who are broken, not people like me.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

In, you know, Sellberry Covery or whatever. Um but yeah, they’re they’re available for those who aren’t so privileged that you can just go to the doctor and your health insurance covers it all and it’s just part of your routine existence is you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um there are options. And I think you know, going back I’m not trying to oversimplify the whole um doctor role, but you know, moderation and accountability is available through other means besides a doctor, you know, going to a doctor’s office.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um To agree with what you’re saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

So thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, thank you, Mark.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s been a fun little podcast.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s very much how we see it.

Mark:

Very much. So yes, by all means, all the disclaimers. We are not uh health advisors, we’re not legal advisors. We’re

Justin:

like I said, I think I might know the least about marijuana of of anyone you know. So

Mark:

but thanks for having the conversation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

This is how I see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do.

Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.