Justin:

I’m excited to talk about a thing we got

Mark:

coming up. I’m excited because it’s gonna be an opportunity for us to interact with our audience. Dancing away. Never done before.

Justin:

Never before in the history of How I See It. What we want to celebrate is Two years.

Mark:

Two

Justin:

years of how I see it. Which if you do the math, it’s not very much after a hundred episodes. It’s a similar celebration except Bigger because it’s two years. So yeah, we’re gonna do a Facebook live or Instagram live. I haven’t decided yet. I don’t know. I think you can do both at the same time actually.

Mark:

When are we gonna do that?

Justin:

February 28th

Mark:

February 28th.

Justin:

7 p. m.

Mark:

7 o’clock on February 28th.

Justin:

So mark your calendars because we’d love to have you join us. There’ll be an opportunity for QA. Love to hear your questions. We might even be putting out some questions in the next couple weeks to be thinking about answering.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

During the session. Like uh, what was your least favorite podcast episode. I’d love to hear that. Yeah. A little bit of ribbing was good for us. So bring your questions, bring your answers. Oh, make sure you bring a dad joke. That’s your entrance fee.

Mark:

Just make sure you show up, cause it wouldn’t be fun to do live without some responses.

Justin:

It wouldn’t be fun to be live if it’s dead.

Mark:

Yes, exactly.

Justin:

February twenty eighth.

Mark:

Seven PM.

Justin:

Seven PM. How I see it live.

Mark:

Live coming to you. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations.

I can hear myself for a moment Made me think what I would have. Thank you, thank you. Not sure what I did, but Thank you, Justin.

Justin:

You passed a hundred episodes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Good job.

Mark:

Nice job. Nice job.

Justin:

You too.

Mark:

Well, hey, happy to be here.

Justin:

Happy to be here.

Mark:

Just happy to be here.

Justin:

Yes. Um That was fun getting a hundred released and getting some feedback from people and some like nice words. So thank you all for being nice.

Mark:

No doubt. And if you needed to be something other than that, we would try not to be offended.

Justin:

It’d be hard, but we’d try. No offense, but we’d try.

Mark:

None taken. None taken. So how are you, sir?

Justin:

I’m good.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

I’m good. How about you?

Mark:

You said you were a little sore earlier. You limbering up.

Justin:

Yeah, I feel a little bit better. There you go.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get your stretching in one way or the other. As you move you kinda get your limits.

Justin:

Mark was chat chiding me about my lack of stretching, which is fully warranted. Well the chiding.

Mark:

I was I was probably chiding you more about your the aging process that is undeniable.

Justin:

It’s the combination though, like as you age.

Mark:

It’s more of a voice of experience in that aspect of how important it is. But

Justin:

Mark’s very good at stretching.

Mark:

Yeah. You got

Justin:

a little routine.

Mark:

I try to. Yeah. It’s only ’cause I’m compensating for years of misuse where my body is concerned. That’s how that’s how I that’s it’s a consequence.

Justin:

Right. So I haven’t got to that consequence yet.

Mark:

Well, I’m trying to help you avoid certain consequences.

Justin:

I remember one time you I think I think you were saying you try to always kneel down to put your shoes on. Like stay standing.

Mark:

No, I stand up. Stand up, stay up. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. Stay standing so that you can stay limber.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

I think about that every time uh I put my socks and shoes. I’m just like, nope, not happening.

Mark:

There you sit down to put your socks and shoes up? Yeah. Oh okay. That’s fair.

Justin:

Yeah. I got especially after um exercise, like, you know, Frisbee specifically, um, my lower back is sore.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And so that stretch is very like Br the breath kinda stopped your breath.

Mark:

Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. So we gotta get you some different stretches.

Justin:

Standing up to put my shoes on. That’s probably the stretch I need.

Mark:

Not sure. I did learn another one the other day.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

It was uh it’s you basic you know you know the cat pose.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Where you arch your back.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If yoga. Like have Megan actually look at your spine and if there’s any flat spots Yeah, kind of put your hand her have her put her hand there and then move your hips, adjust your hips or your your your back in such a way to make that arch because that flat spot indicates a weakness in that area. So that’s just that’s just a little yeah. And typically, you know, um yeah, another another another time for another story, but yeah.

Justin:

Everyone’s gonna be wondering now, but

Mark:

well, like you say, we’ll come we’ll come back to it. We’ll come back to it. I can I can hold that.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yeah. Cat pose.

Justin:

Cat pose. Uh Yeah, so we are uh going to talk about being offended.

Mark:

When was the last time you were offended? Hmm

Justin:

recent.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Like within the past week.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I get offended regularly.

Mark:

Really?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s something you routinely maintain?

Justin:

Yeah. I enjoy the experience.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

No, I uh you know, I talk about this at CR, but one of my struggles is resentment. Like um part of part of my particular personality is Trying to figure out why things are the way they are and um yeah. So it’s like a lot of times I’ll yeah. There’ll be an initial offended reaction in my in my body, you know, that’s like w That’s not my fault. That’s someone else’s fault. And that bothers me. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I you know, and I work through it. I mean I don’t live offended. Um I think that’s

Mark:

But would you say the resentment comes from multiple offenses?

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

For sure. But I’m just saying, yeah, those multiple come from somewhere. Like you you you you track ’em, you know what I mean?

Mark:

Gotcha

Justin:

Yeah, I I don’t know. I I don’t know. That’s probably a strong statement to say I get offended a lot, but it like I don’t not get offended.

Mark:

You don’t not get offended.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Oh really?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So you would

Justin:

It’s official.

Mark:

You you would say that you are possibly more offended than you are not offended.

Justin:

No.

Mark:

Oh well

Justin:

Just you know, if any given week you say, Have you been offended in the last week, there’s a good chance I’d say yes.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And Again, just so we’re clear, it’s not like there’s a f things happening that deserve to be offended at. It’s just how I process things. Yeah.

Mark:

So are there people that tend to Offend you more?

Justin:

All people might. Especially you.

Mark:

When I start asking questions. But no, I mean is

Justin:

when I picked this topic, it was not so you could grill me, Mark.

Mark:

Okay. I’ve I’ve I’ll pull I I’m I’m happy to pull it back in that process Well, but I mean what listeners

Justin:

to know who I’m offended at. What

Mark:

what

Justin:

they’re not sharing these uh episodes with their friends. So as much as they like ’em

Mark:

what typically offends you You

Justin:

gotta be started now No, I’m just kidding. I’m not offended. But you should share these with your friends ’cause we have forty listeners and that’s been that way for a long time.

Mark:

Okay. But we’re thankful for those forty.

Justin:

We are. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So

Justin:

we keep doing it.

Mark:

Yeah. And

Justin:

those forty are you know, they are the salt of the air.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

The best forty people on the earth.

Mark:

There you go. They are the foundation of how we see it.

Justin:

That’s right. So we got the ones that matter. Now we just have to get the ones that don’t.

Mark:

Okay. So that

Justin:

that was a joke.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Not offended by that. I

Mark:

I wasn’t offended.

Justin:

No, I’m making sure our audience knows.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

Do you understand that?

Mark:

I did. No, I’m talking about it. You didn’t want to offend our audience. Okay. That’s that’s I was I was allowing do you would you like to carry on a further conversation with our audience?

Justin:

I’m good now.

Mark:

You good?

Justin:

They seem to understand.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

All right.

Mark:

That was that was the sensation you got?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s the vibes. Yeah.

Justin:

All right, back to your question.

Mark:

So yes. What typically offends you? We know people.

Justin:

Um anything that makes me look bad. is is gonna be a trigger for being offended.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

And I should prep fix that statement. Anything that makes me feel like I look bad

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. Can be a trigger for feeling offended.

Mark:

Okay. So in that process, I’m the here again, I’m I’m being mindful that I don’t offend you with too many questions. in that process, what do you do with that? Hm?

Justin:

Well You know, it’s the same thing as like a lot of the conversations. You just kinda work through it, you think about it, you process it, you figure out if it’s worth being offended at. But um you know, being offended is one of those things that you can’t necessarily control the the impulse, but you have a choice what you do with the impulse.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

so I try to choose the right thing, which in any given situation is can vary, right? It can be like Stop your being stupid. That’s not nothing to be offended at.

Mark:

Who typically says that to you?

Justin:

Me. Oh. That’s what I’m saying. The process is not a good thing. That’s part of your process. Yeah, just like that

Mark:

internally.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. Um, I think the answer is just processing it.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

The simplest answer.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And then you d do with it what you need to do. I do with it what I need to do, you know?

Mark:

Do you have any tools?

Justin:

Why don’t you answer these questions, Mike? Tools. Go ahead.

Mark:

Yeah. Do you have any tools that help you with that?

Justin:

Um Yeah, I mean I do I feel like every time we get into these questions about me, they’re the same answers. Uh so forgive me if I’m saying the same thing, but Um CR has taught me a lot about reflection and about um the fact that So much of what’s wrong in the world is m me. Like I’m it’s you know, I’m the problem, it’s me. Everywhere I go, it’s me, you know. So um I’ve learned to bring that to every struggle and sometimes um sometimes as I’m processing I’m going Yeah, but no, it’s not me, it’s you you know, and so then it that’s where resentment comes in. That’s where it’s harder to work through. But if in a lot of the times this is true, if during the processing I can go, Ah yeah, it’s that part of me that just doesn’t like that, you know? Um that little clip we just watched, she talked about um what like what base emotion is it triggering and what what sensations Yeah, so uh process those sensations and able to say, Oh, it just makes me feel embarrassed, you know, is very often the the the sensation that’s triggering for me. I’m just embarrassed and I do I need to be embarrassed about this? Well, not really. Um

Mark:

Well embarrassment is actually the emotion you’re feeling.

Justin:

Yeah. Where

Mark:

where do you tend to feel that or how do you tend to feel that? If we’re thinking about sensation, what do you feel? This is good self-awareness.

Justin:

This is a therapy session with Mark.

Mark:

When we’re thinking about tools exactly.

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I think at times we so often our emotions are driven by our sensations. That ability that I’m feel my mouth is dry, my stomach is tight, my or my stomach is a knots, you know, your stomach can have multiple you know, sensations, but yeah, you you can also feel the restriction in your chest. Some people feel tightness, some people feel oh yeah?

Justin:

Yeah, I think

Mark:

so. That’s fair.

Justin:

I think so.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. Good job.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

You figured it up.

Mark:

So now you know when you feel that tightness in your chest, it’s likely a certain emotion that’s gonna pr precede that, not pre after that, come after that, and then being able to recognize, okay, that process, the so is what do I need? Or what do I want even? And it can come back. And I I think so often we talk about it or we have talked about, you know, the love styles. We talked about the primal questions, you know, a lot of this comes back from that aspect of what do I need and is that need being met or not met?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that kind of thing. And I think, you know, when we come into these those stressful situations where I’m perceiving there is a stress based on, you know, offenses. You know, I think you did a great job of describing how You’re trying to grow in yourself and others’ awareness. Because you’re recognizing part of this is just you, but it may not all be you.

Justin:

Right. Yeah, and a lot of times too when you peel ’em apart. As far as tools go when I I’m able to process it and well I think as far as tools go, one of the things too is like try not to do anything about being offended in the mo while you’re while your chest is constrained, you know, while you’re you’re feeling the sensations. Because in my in my case, when I’m offended, usually it’s not something to do something about.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s the truth So so

Mark:

it’s more of a reaction.

Justin:

Yes. So learning to that sensation is not um you know, something to fight or flight about. Like you probably should if anything for me it’s about um stepping away or out even if it’s just mentally from the situation. Um to say, all right, what’s going on here? You know, and processing and

Mark:

That’s a it’s a great point. I’m just curious at this point, in that in that awareness, if you will, that I can react, but it’s probably not beneficial.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Have you ever noticed the as you listen, sometimes you realize there was no need to be offended.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s an important part too when we can recognize, okay, yeah, that that may have sounded offensive and I may have been offended, but that was not the intention.

Justin:

Right. Yep. So that’s that’s what I was gonna say too is like I start the work is peeling apart me versus it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And Often once you’re able when once I’m able to peel that apart, it becomes clear what needs to be done and usually it’s nothing. It’s

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s internal work, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Letting it go, of accepting, you know, this wasn’t how I perceived it, that kind of thing. Um every once in a while y the you you know, or whatever, you peel it apart, you see that there is some fault on that side. But when you look at the balance, the scale, you’re like

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s pretty heavy on my side. Yeah. And it’s a big thing.

Mark:

Justin’s using his hands as a scale and his left hand is way in the air and his right hand’s way down by his waist. So Uh it’s the opposite. Nice job. You just you just uh tipped the scale. Exactly. You were no longer offended, Justin. How did that feel? How did that feel

Justin:

Felt good. Felt like a l a a weight was lifted off the scale.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, I mean once it once I remove myself from the scale and it you know, it’s like yeah, it changes the things.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Yeah. That an allergy falls falls apart, but yeah.

Mark:

It’s okay. Um

Justin:

but yeah, how about you?

Mark:

How about me what?

Justin:

All of the questions you asked me. Let’s start with have you been do you get was the first question. Do you do you get offended, Mark? I think that was the first question.

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

Alright. Have you been offended in the last week?

Mark:

Yes I have.

Justin:

Alright. Who was it?

Mark:

It was actually it was actually uh Chris and I we got in you know, and I think What will typically offend me is when someone and I and I think you know it’s it’s part of our human nature. This is nothing against Chris, you know, I do I likely do it to her, but in that process of telling someone what they are, you know, based on an experience like, you know, that that aspect of if someone’s telling me what I think or what I’m doing, you know, I that that can tend to offend me when I recognize that I can understand how what I did, my action, like say my action made you or Chris or, you know, feel like you weren’t important.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in that process because I made a specific choice to do something different than what you were thinking I would do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and then that goes so far as to say, well, you did that because you know, you were trying to tick me off.

Justin:

Yeah, when When there’s motive assigned.

Mark:

Yes. That that that is the you know a time when I can feel offended.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Uh like you’re saying, we still have a choice as to whether we become defensive, you know, in that process or whether we say, okay, yep, I I can respect a fact that my action was viewed that way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that wasn’t my intention, but I can understand how it can be conceived that way. Mm-hmm. And I think that’s, you know Granted, and I think that adds to the, you know, kind of that third we were talking about stress management itself and others’ awareness. And I think that comes back to the third part of that. Um Which would be rupture and repair. You know, because conflict is gonna happen. We’re gonna be offended by people, but at the same time, are we able to take that awareness uh you know from myself and others into what I use in such a way that is actually able to repair and I think that’s so often what happens is in that offense, if I stay there, you know, that’s I’m that’s just like staying in the rupture, staying in the conflict. And I think that’s why, you know, we tend to avoid conflict for so many people is because it tends to seem as if it is wrong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s conflict is a bad thing. Mm-hmm. And I don’t think in it and that I think it I think it is viewed that way because so rarely do we come to the other side of finding the resolution.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, so and back to the back to being offended, I think too, um conflict and re resolving conflict becomes much harder when we don’t have a good filter on our fences. Or good filter between our offenses and conflict.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense? So I think um it gets very hard to again, resolve conflict if every time I’m offended, I’m attempting to resolve the conflict.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Externally with this person or this situation.

Mark:

Yep. Um And I think I think like we talked about, that reactive part that is in between the two from my perspective is what makes the resolution very difficult.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me there?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because if we’re just doing it out of reactivity, you know, you said that on purpose.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Then it’s like well that’s already starting in a you know a negative trajectory at that point or an unhealthy you know, transition. And I think, you know, that’s an important part, but I didn’t mean to interrupt. But that reactive part keeps us from finding the conflict resolution sometimes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in the process of the offense.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think uh being offended is reactive. I think that’s the that’s the thing to accept and understand about being offended is that it is reactive. Um you’re not offended at something that doesn’t exist. It’s the therefore you are reacting to something that does exist and So it is reactive. Um, and the reason I’m saying that is because I think sometimes we think of reactivity as a negative thing. It’s not an it’s not a negative thing, it’s just a reality. Um but turning um allowing the whole process to be reactive is where the problem is. Like w um I think as Victor Frankel says in between stimulus and response we have the power to choose our response.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And so if we want if we remove that choice And we just act according to the reac you know, the reaction comes and we and then we react according to that that stimulus.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh without the choice we are in essentially animals. We’re acting on animal instinct and that’s how animals act. And But we are not animals. And that’s the beauty of being God’s creation is he made us in his image. And therefore, right between then, right between you know, the thing that makes us, you know flight fight or flight, in actual fight or flight, we do have a choice to examine the thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And decide should I fight? Should I flight? Or is there an alternate solution here.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think um, you know, with being offended, that is going if you’re anything like me and Mark and you get offended in the last week. Like that’s something you have to learn in practice, right? Yes.

Mark:

And I think I really appreciate the way you’re setting that up even in that process, ’cause you know, so often different people will talk about, you know, you know, lizard brain or, you know, you know, and that and mammalian brain, you know, in y depending on your evolutionary perspective, but you know, from a from a design characteristic, I do think, you know, our primary function, that fight or flight mechanism, is designed to keep us alive. It’s an important factor. And yet we don’t always have to react with that. Yeah. We can recognize, okay, you know that, you know, the difference between, okay, uh a muffler backfire and a gunshot. Right. You know, we can understand how th w one one might make us react differently, but they we they can both be so similar. But I think our you know so often our m we have the ability to use our other senses and process it and say, okay, no, that was car was going by, it’s still kind of running rough It makes perfect sense. That was just a car backfiring. You follow me? And I think when we when I think our senses are God given in that aspect to where that’s that’s our that’s our warning sign in some ways that God has given us to be able to say, okay. I’m feeling a certain way. I’m likely about excuse me. I’m feeling something and likely I’m gonna be feeling a certain emotion here shortly.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I think being able to make that recognition to choose, then I’m better equipped to be able to say, okay, what do what do I want? And I think, you know, as you as you allude to the clip, you know, so often the things that offends offend us are the is is just conflict in general, things that are arguable. You know, because most things are, you know, depending on the people you’re around, you know, some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Right. They may not even necessarily agree or or not agree on it. Like that. Exactly. That’s a perfect example. But being able to recognize I s like you’re saying I still have the choice to say, okay Am I gonna be offended by that? Because something arguable and I think, you know, would the

Justin:

See, I haven’t learned how to make that choice. I haven’t learned how to decide. Well, I guess I choose not to be offended.

Mark:

There are certain things

Justin:

to be done.

Mark:

But there are certain things you have learned to choose not to be offended by anymore.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Is that fair?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Because uh part of part of what initiated our kind of the topic was this aspect of a person wrote in And uh to a a person asking about being offended by a isn’t it is it David?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Uh Mike Del Yeah, it’s Michael Michelangelo’s David, where he’s basically naked.

Justin:

Yeah. His junk is hanging out.

Mark:

And a person was offended by that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s like

Justin:

In a classroom.

Mark:

In a classroom setting, yes.

Justin:

That was a uh distracting and yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I and I respected, you know, how the how the article was set up, you know, in this process. Okay, that is a choice that we have to be offended, but can we remove all art, if you will, all statues, you know, all of the m Michelangelo Davids, can we remove them from our entire

Justin:

our existence poof. Could you do a

Mark:

Snap your fingers.

Justin:

What’s his name?

Mark:

Thanos? Thanos.

Justin:

Can you use Thanos? I mean, even then you’d only lose half of it. So you still gotta figure out how to deal with the other half.

Mark:

Yes. So yes, certain things will offend us, and yes, you have learned that you don’t have to be offended by those things anymore

Justin:

Yeah, so I guess uh my distinction there is that um I don’t necessarily get to choose the offensive the offended feeling but I do choose whether I you know, r act upon that offense, you know, and I think that’s for me a key distinction. In the same sense that I don’t necessarily get to choose my emotion, um, but I get do get to choose what to do about the emotion.

Mark:

Sure. Um and it we can establish in some ways Your sensation, your emotion, and what you want are some of those non-arguables. In other words, if you’re feel I can’t argue the fact that your stomach just dropped And you you or you felt that tenseness in your chest. That’s something only you can do. There’s no use me arguing that point. Yeah. Let alone what that feeling responded. You know, the response was that feeling, reaction was that feeling, and there’s likely something you want. that that statue removed. You follow me? Those those I can I those are non-arguables from my perspective. And I think it’s an important thing to be able to say, okay, yeah, that’s where you’re at.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And likely the fact that, you know, you felt unappreciated, we can bring it back to that primal question, I think, in some ways. You know, those those are likely some of the basis for that offense. I felt unimportant. I felt unloved. I felt weak.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Just had to throw that in there. But you know, in that process I

Justin:

felt like any other number besides seven and therefore I felt weak.

Mark:

Ah

Justin:

Sorry.

Mark:

No, I I put it out there. I put it out there. I set it up. I put it on a table. Yeah. Yeah. So coming back to the offense, we can’t necessarily m remove everything that offends us.

Justin:

Can I read that quote real quick?

Mark:

Of course.

Justin:

Yeah, from that article.

Mark:

This is your this is your computer screen screen, so yeah.

Justin:

Well it ties into what you’re saying. Um The ar you know, the article was kind of like uh ask whatever this guy is, your question is

Mark:

kind of a dear abbey of sorts.

Justin:

Yeah, thank you.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um and he’s like, Am I stupid you know, the guy who wrote it, am I stupid for being offended by this or or is it realistic to expect you know to ask be able to ask them to take it down, that kind of thing. Um he starts by saying, You’re not stupid and you certainly don’t have to look at it. You don’t even have to look look at anything anywhere ever You could you could wear blinders or even full-on blind yourself surgically. Or you could start a campaign to try and eliminate that particular drawing and every other drawing you don’t like from the face of the earth. It would take a lot of work, and in the end, you’d probably end up looking at, thinking about, and obsessing over the image you’re trying to get rid of more than ever ever before. Maybe eventually you could figure out a way to never see it, hear about it, or think about it again. Or maybe there’s another way. Um and he goes on to, you know, discuss that.

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

and then later he says, So do whatever you really feel you should do here, but be warned it’s a slippery slope. There’ll always be another poster or another experience or another idea that offends you. And I think, you know Even the fact that Mark gets offended should be proof that you’re gonna deal with offenses in your life. Like that’s a reality, that’s just part of it. Um and I oh I would say that’s a big part of being alive You know, it’s your senses interacting with the world around you. And um some senses are good, some senses are bad. She kind of boiled it down to well I wanna say five, but it’s like you know, there’s basically good feelings and bad feelings and the bad feelings tend to push you towards, you know, of being o offended in some way.

Mark:

I would argue good and bad, but yes, I hear where you’re coming from. Comfortable and uncomfortable probably.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s a good way to put it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I guess uh I was thinking of the the smiley face and the happy face.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Some make you have the f you know a f uh smile that’s a aiming down as I’ll make it

Mark:

uh

Justin:

aiming up.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s uh very simplistic. Yeah. There are other emotions that don’t do either. There’s the

Mark:

oh surprise

Justin:

emotion. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Need to get some emojis up in here.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

There’s one for every emotion.

Mark:

So yeah, and I think I the the other part I liked about the and you alluded to it too, you know, that uh what what is it about that thing that tends to offend me? And you mentioned, you know, that you know, the fact that the this person didn’t like looking at David’s junk, that kind of thing. And I think, you know, even that is a that is a reflection. on, you know, what is it about that area, you know, our genitals, if you will, that, you know, makes it offensive or junk or whatever. you know, in a in a artistic, yeah, statuesque type yeah, you know, dynamic. And I realize, you know, there again, there can be a slippery slope there as well. you know, yeah. But being able to recognize, okay, what is it about that that personally offends me, you know, from the in that context.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s uh Yeah, that’s uh made me think of a rabbit hole.

Mark:

Well you you’re you’re welcome to share the rabbit hole if you desire.

Justin:

All right. Uh I think about how some people get offended the most offended by the things that they’re s secretly struggle with. Right. So um Yeah, I can think of examples from, you know, the church where um, you know, pastors are really rail against um like uh adultery and that kind of thing and then but yet they have a secret um words aren’t coming to me but you got what I’m saying.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s fair.

Justin:

Yeah so it’s like It’s almost you’re overcompensating.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, it’s a I think sometimes our offenses can be that and I know mine can be that where I’m offended that you’re trying to get attention. That’s that’s what that’s one that gets to me a lot. Mm. Someone’s trying to get attention and I get offended. Like, why are you trying to get attention? It’s like Oh, I know why. ‘Cause I want your I want the attention you’re getting.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, as that approval ad, it’s like you know, that um uh there’s a limited uh scarcity mindset, right? Like you’re getting what I uh now I can’t get what you’re getting, kind of thing. Um

Mark:

if you’re getting it, I can’t.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um so that’s like the the bare emotion, you know, like the raw thing that it comes down to a lot of times.

Mark:

That’s the thought.

Justin:

Yeah, where I have to go, Oh, that’s just my ugly gimme that. You know, coming out again. And I and and again it kind so you once you kind of assess that on the scale and I go, Oh yeah, a lot of that’s just my primal need for uh, you know, people you know, that sense of purpose, I guess.

Mark:

That was your seven, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, where it’s like Uh I don’t know why. I feel like the whole approval thing isn’t tied to the purpose. It ties more to am I wanted, which might be my wing.

Mark:

I got you.

Justin:

He doesn’t call it a weenie.

Mark:

Like your denagram.

Justin:

Yeah, but he he has like he has a term for The side ones.

Mark:

Oh, okay. Yeah. Like secondary question.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. I forget what he calls it.

Mark:

Kind of like love languages. You can have a primary love language, but you might have a secondary one.

Justin:

Makes perfect sense. But anyway back to the thing uh about being offended, when I look at the scale and I go, Oh, a lot of that’s just my ugly primal I want that. I take that off the scale and it’s left with you saying you want that. I’m like, well, I don’t blame you, so do I, so have at it. You know, it’s like the offense just kind of drops off because I I can recognize we’re in the same boat here.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I’m saying?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you’re you’re you’re striving for this attention. And maybe they are. Maybe they’re not. Like that I’m saying worst case scenario, you’re Getting what I want to get.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s

Mark:

and that’s that third part. What do I want?

Justin:

Yeah. What do I want to do?

Mark:

Yes I’m offended when I’m not getting what I want. Yours might be attention. Someone else might be control, someone else might be power, someone else, you you follow me? Those things that I want, and I’m perceiving it in such a way that I’m not getting. I’m not I’m not the priority. You know, you you just did something different and you know that made me feel as if I’m no longer important. You follow me, that that process. So I’m not getting what I want at that moment. And I think that’s that’s an important part of that being able to recognize my awareness. ‘Cause what do I do when I don’t get what I want?

Justin:

Yeah, I roll on the floor and pound my fist.

Mark:

Nice. Yeah. Nice.

Justin:

I do. It works every time.

Mark:

As long as everybody gets tired of that behavior and they say, okay, you get your way, right? Yeah, no one challenges that behavior.

Justin:

So far, so good.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

You just do it. You ask some tools.

Mark:

I I did. I didn’t ask for the tools of a two-year-old, but I asked for

Justin:

Oh, that actually is a good segue. I think um in CR we talk about a lot of our behaviors are our negative behaviors are a result of Learning how to deal with a problem when we were young. Sure. An offense when we were young. And we’ve taken that same behavior into our adulthood.

Mark:

Stress management.

Justin:

But we’re basically the same habits that we had to deal with at when we were young. Like I want attention, right? Like so I’m gonna be funny. We bring you know, you think about Robin Williams is a good example of that. he learned to cope with dysfunction at his home by being funny.

Mark:

Sure. And

Justin:

if he could make his mom laugh, you know, things were light in the home and he took that into adulthood and of course we all benefited from it from a time. But it also I think is partly what took his life in the sense that he was always striving to s solve the problems with being funny and he couldn’t solve all of life’s problems by being funny.

Mark:

Yeah. Um to be able to process the emotion underneath that, that discomfort of being able to process those deeper, harder emotions, like we’re not necessarily positive or negative, but you know, comfortable or uncomfortable. you know, happiness or you know, that becomes that that comfortable emotion. So I have to produce that in order to minimize my stress over the more uncomfortable ones where my needs might not be met. And I think that’s exactly what, you know, 1 Corinthians 13 talks about towards the end, around 11 or 12, where it talks about, you know. When I was a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, but when I became an adult, I put my childish ways behind me. And I’m willing to recognize we don’t always put all of those childish ways behind us.

Justin:

Often we don’t, I would say. I think that uh uh not I mean we become adults and we learn so many ways, we become mature, but there are are often some primal things we carry with us in adulthood which are still childish.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And we don’t put those things away. And I think that’s where therapy can come in handy, right? Like is to learn. Right. So whatever way you can get to that. And so therapy can help you get to that, but also listening to How I See It can help you get to that. So you’re welcome. No, uh You know, programs like Celebrate Recovery or How We Love or you know

Mark:

, Sure.

Justin:

Anything that can make you journaling stop. Yes. Journaling

Mark:

can be a strong

Justin:

Anything that can help you to st pr take in a stimulus and then right between it do something about it. Anything that can coach you in that is gonna be uh very helpful in helping you. Put you know what is it? Self

Mark:

and others awareness as well. Oh put that uh as far as putting my childish ways behind me.

Justin:

Yeah, that. Yeah. That anything like that’s gonna help you get to that point.

Mark:

Because I think what happens is and and I think your your uh your example of uh throwing a temper tantrum and laying on the floor, yeah, you know, we all have these cycles and patterns that have been developed over time. You know, so what do I typically do when I don’t get that thing that I want or need?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that’s what that becomes. And so being able to say, no, I’m okay, you know, when I don’t get what I want and yet I can still communicate that I was disappointed. And that doesn’t mean I’m disappointed in you. That just means I’m disappointed in that circumstance. And therefore, I did that thing that sometimes I do.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good. I think one of the things I’ve really learned over the last several years, partly a lot from you, uh also a little bit from therapy and also a little bit from CR and stuff like that. but really more from a therapeutic perspective is prior to kind of understanding a lot of these things, my thought was anxiety, stress anger, whatever. Bad. And you’ve corrected that in this conversation many times, which I just want to call out because it’s so valuable to say It’s not about bad or good, it’s about comfort or discomfort. And so what what I’ve had to learn and I’m slowly learning and it’s still hard is that you’re not going to eradicate the discomfortable m moments from your life. There’s those things that offend you. You you’re not I mean like that like he was joking about. You can’t remove every offensive image from the earth or whatever. You cannot get to a place of enlightenment, in my estimation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Maybe maybe some monks have figured it out. I don’t know, because you know they’re very we we should talk about meditation at some point because there is some power in that and I I don’t want to take away from that and there’s there’s room there to grow in terms of how much offends you and like how many of those um stimuluses impact you in a negative way. However

Mark:

That would be that awareness of where my sensation is.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That would be the the beginning of that part. But yes, however Sorry, did I break your chain of thought? I apologize. Uh

Justin:

oh yeah yeah. So my whole idea was you could l lessen, minimize, almost eradicate. kind of those negative impulses and you become this enlightened individu individual who doesn’t get, you know, bothered, essentially. And I think what I’ve learned is that a lot of those things that bother you are neutral. They can be helpful. They can be healthy. They you know s anxiety. can teach you right that ye you’re it can teach you many things. It can teach you you’re in danger, for instance. That’s a good thing. Like if you sh feel anxiety about walking down a certain alley at night or whatever Yeah. That’s probably a good healthy emotion to feel in the sense that you should be alert. You should be, you know. Um

Mark:

Yeah, I think you I think that’s a great awareness. And I think, you know That’s the beauty of seeing emotions as emotions because I would dare say, you know, it’s perfectly healthy to feel sad when I lose a loved one.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And if I’m just if I’m just fighting that because I don’t like feeling sad, then I’m ex you know, exhibiting or I’m a you know I’m dealing with a lot of extra stress about the fact that I’m feeling sad when if I’m just able to be in that moment Yeah. And recognized I’ve lost someone who’s important to me and my ability to feel sad is just a testimony to the depth of that relationship. That’s a perfectly healthy thing to do.

Justin:

And you should. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and that’s true of all negative or just uncomfortable emotions that there is a place for them that’s healthy.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Anger also.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Um yeah I I think kind of going back to what I was saying, the thing that I’m learning myself and that’s been a little bit hard to accept, but also good to accept, is that There are certain thorns of the flesh, like Paul said, where it’s like, you know, I really want those things gone from I don’t want to be offended when someone’s trying to get attention and I want the attention. Like that to me is so primal, right?

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

And almost childish feels very childish to me. And I like I I want that to stop being a thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like, come on. Testure. Come on, that that’s silly, you know. And yet no, I can’t I haven’t been able to figure out how to prevent that initial thing like in certain circ and often too it’s not just that singular thing. It’s a combination of events or a combination of things that have put me in a certain point where I’m not At my best, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Mark:

It makes perfect sense. And I here’s a another little tidbit, if I may, you know, what you describe. as childish , I would flip that to a certain degree and and and look at it in the aspect of, okay, that I’m feeling childish. How can I make it childlike? In other words, when I when I think we’re able to look at it from a childlike, I think Jesus encourages a childlike faith. You follow me? Yeah. And I think when we’re able to look at it in a way, which

Justin:

is your example. Yeah, use that.

Mark:

Your example to To look at it in a childlike manner would be almost to be able to say, okay, that person likes to be affirmed just like I do. So we’re all childlike in this sense of being able to say, oh, it’s that person’s turn. That’s cool. They got the turn. And you know, I mean that in it in a in some ways flips flips the script, yes, in such a way that Flips the scale.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In other words, to be able to say, yeah, we all desire affirmation. And that person got their turn. My turn’s coming someday. I don’t know when it is. But I hope the people around me are happy when it’s my turn. That they’re not, you know, well what did he do? You know, that childish perspective that the jealousy, you know, crazy jealousy, I’ll call it But you know, that aspect to where I think, you know, if we can kind of wrestle with that childish versus childlike. And and I think, you know, so often, you know, those I think children do do it better.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I th I think as we age, we find more things to be offended about. Whereas, you know, children, healthy children, you know, i they they have their needs met. They rely on healthy parents, you know, in such a way that says Oh wow, that’s cool, you know, because we can almost see that childlikeness that has the ability to celebrate, you know, the little things that isn’t easily offended.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because there’s this security in that process. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s good. It’s good stuff.

Mark:

Makes sense?

Justin:

It does, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, our even as adults, our ability to play is sometimes, you know, like even Frisbee you know, were offended when I didn’t necessarily get my way or I thought somebody should do something differently. But yet if I’m able to flip that in such a way that says, okay, no, that first person and oh and by the way, I fell on you on Sunday and I do apologize for falling on you on Sunday.

Justin:

It was like a feather mic

Mark:

Yeah, well I’m glad. But like I’m not offended by that. You just call me a lightweight, but that’s okay. But yes.

Justin:

I wouldn’t have assumed that it was a good idea.

Mark:

I didn’t want to put my hands down because it was like where would I put ’em? You know, if I put ’em right on his face and I put my way, it’s like, you know, so it’s like just lay out and the whole body goes down and So yeah, I do apologize for that.

Justin:

Maybe that’s why I’m sorry this morning. That’s a good point.

Mark:

It just caught up with you uh three days later, give a date.

Justin:

After the next Frisbee session.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. It wasn’t really last night. It was for it was residual from Sunday. But I do apologize for uh

Justin:

It’s not good. I’m not offended.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But that’s a good segue. Frisbee can be you can get offended or you can recognize this is a game.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Uh, which actually I’m trying to s let’s see if I can stretch that analogy. I think we can make that work in life too. Like let’s make it less serious and say r remember this is all just a game in a sense of This is an opportunity to learn and and grow and have fun. Um or this is serious and this is real life and this is and it’s like um especially when you realize uh like there’s When you can accept that there’s a God of the universe, he’s your higher power, and this whole thing’s under his control, and I’m just a character, you know, that gets to play the game.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, I think sometimes that can help me too in the sense of um yeah, just recognizing that this isn’t so serious because He’s got this.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It it kinda kinda gum it back to that comparison thing of like they’re getting attention, I’m not. It’s like you know, kind that same idea of like, well that’s it’s his turn, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah. On the game board, you know. Yeah. And that’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Gonna mute my dings. Sorry about that. If you thought that was your text message, it wasn’t. It was mine. But I’m not gonna look at it.

Mark:

That’s okay. Even if you did.

Justin:

Because Mark would be offended.

Mark:

No, I wouldn’t be offended.

Justin:

Our listeners would be offend no.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

They wouldn’t know. You wouldn’t even know.

Mark:

I I would I would dare say I don’t think I’m not sure. I was you you brought up technology And technology, I would consider myself technologically averse, but I’m not sure I’m offended. I have to.

Justin:

Alright.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I brought up emojis earlier and I expected more of a a reaction by you like a herumph. Oh yeah. I said there’s an emoji for every emotion or something.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I thought you would take issue with that, but

Mark:

I realize there are multiple emojis. We had a discussion the other day whether uh whether the praying hands is actually a high five.

Justin:

Oh.

Mark:

So if you

Justin:

take

Mark:

you know if you look up

Justin:

I’ve never seen it used that way.

Mark:

You’ve never seen a high

Justin:

five? No, I’ve never seen the praying hands use as a high five.

Mark:

Ah, well you look ’em up. It’s uh it’s uh if you try to look up one.

Justin:

No, I I’m not saying I don’t think anyone ever has ever done it. I’m saying in in my experience I have.

Mark:

Oh, you’ve never received a high five

Justin:

Not any most of the things. Using the praying hands. Oh wow. There’s also a fist bump one.

Mark:

Ah.

Justin:

So I’ve gotten that one.

Mark:

Feel free to send Justin the Praying Hands of I5. For anything he does well because he likes the attention.

Justin:

The applause.

Mark:

The affirmation.

Justin:

Well I’ll just assume you’re praying for me. Or that you’re thankful. You know, a thank you or a praying.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s been my experience, Mark. But I can’t argue with your experience. It’s inarguable. I’ve learned that today.

Mark:

Yes. So yes. High five. Nice. Nice.

Justin:

You have to hold it there a second for it to match the emotion. The emoji.

Mark:

Yeah. But see uh

Justin:

Or is it just frozen in time?

Mark:

It’s if it’s frozen in time. Okay. But so that being said, we uh we hope this has been a helpful opportunity just to recognize that yes, things will offend us. Yep. Part of the human equation.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And yet what we do about that becomes a choice. And likely there is a there is something that I desire to change, something I want. But yet another person may want that same thing. Yep. Or just a different thing. And that’s not always a a wrong thing. It’s just part of being human. So

Justin:

Gotta learn to process it.

Mark:

What fun we have. And that being said, this is how I see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I-C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.