0:00
yeah and I think the other thing that one of the principles that has really

0:06
become ingrained in me is two sides of the same Co which is how long things

0:11
take and how how I'm going to say quickly MH things

0:19
grow but I don't mean quick it's it takes time M but if you just do what you

0:24
should do you keep your head down you keep it weeded you know over time you'll see growth and it's incredible it's like

0:31
wow look at this this grew in my yard like I this whole corner of nonsense [Music]

0:40
things welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

0:47
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

0:52
thoughtful [Music]

0:57
conversations morning Justin good morning morning how are you today I'm well are

1:04
you I am feeling good today I'm feeling pretty good good yeah glad to hear it we

1:10
uh earlier you mentioned we should record a session of us trying to pick a

1:16
topic that would be a podcast in itself some mornings this morning particularly

1:22
no doubt we uh a little non-committal had lots of ideas exactly and we still

1:28
don't know what we're going to talk about we got an idea yeah where where it goes we got an

1:34
idea we got a generalized idea where it goes we got start exactly we're going to hit the ramp we don't know where we're

1:40
going to land at the bottom but exactly we'll find out yeah so tell me what are

1:45
what are you planting these days I know I see your yard out there and talk with me about what you're

1:52
planting so for the listener I uh I have a garage which is

2:00
where my office slash this studio is and this is where we are yeah it's it's not

2:06
a particularly attractive building it's a pole metal building and um for some reason when we

2:14
moved into this house there was these little magnolia tree shoots in the woods

2:20
close to my house um probably what's that 2 feet that give you 18 Ines yeah

2:26
J's holding his hands apart here for us for us to view they're about this tall

2:32
okay yes some of them are like a foot you know there's just a few of them and I was like I like magnolia trees they're

2:39
really pretty mhm and I wonder what happens if I dig this up and stick it in a pot and just put it in my art and yeah

2:47
you know how long you know what it look like as it grows and I had I had no idea

2:53
how anything about magnolia trees except I like them and they have those big huge white flowers that I really love and

2:59
it's like hey that' be cool if I could just get a big white flower off this little thing you know yeah so I stuck in

3:05
a pot and stuck it by my garage I'm like hey I actually kind of makes my garage look a little nicer with sure I don't

3:11
know and that doesn't really but it kind of distracts from it um and then I kind of went nuts I just

3:18
kept doing that Justin was transplanting weeds but

3:24
it was but if it was a pretty weed it was good I have some pretty weeds out there yes yes

3:30
uh yeah in fact like we have several uh vines in this are in our yard

3:38
and Stu like sure with every kind of Vine is trying to take take over our

3:44
yard and the forest behind us it's crazy you got Virginia creeper Wisteria I like

3:51
that Forest behind you yeah yeah Forest I like that yeah the forest that's 2 feet deep to the to the neighbors yard

3:59
it's foresty enough for the The Vines to try and take over it that's indeed I also have a thing called cat Brier which

4:06
is what I call the devil Vine it's from the devil U we also have a thing called

4:13
trumpet vine which has got pretty orange flowers which is cool but it's just invasive pretty much they're all

4:19
invasive right sure sure um but the wisteria and the trumpet vine are very

4:24
pretty like the trumpet vine has those orange yep flowers and Wister has really

4:30
purple pretty purple like they almost look like grape clusters in the spring like you just see them all over the

4:35
trees everywhere and it almost makes you think wow there's a lot of trees that have purple flowers no it's just this

4:40
particular vine called Wisteria so I started to just pluck out little growths

4:46
and stick them in pots and I got a bunch of vines growing you know just in pots and so and I've had

4:54
people buy them from me like they want you know they want to put them on a trellis or whatever and sure oh another

5:00
one is the Carolina Jasmine or uh yeah or some people call it jessmine which

5:06
I've been made fun of for because uh the locals definitely think it's Carolina

5:13
Jasmine um yeah so I'm growing those and then a bunch of trees like I did the

5:19
arbor actually my brother-in-law who's a landscaper Jackson um he started me on

5:26
this Arbor Day thing where he brought over I think it was like six seven Twigs

5:31
that he got from Arbor Day you know they say if you donate 10 bucks we'll send you 10 trees you're like 10 trees well

5:37
they're actually just 10 Twigs right they're like a foot tall with with a few Roots at the bottom you know and it's

5:45
like that's not what I would call a tree sure but you know he gave us six or seven at the beginning of I think it was

5:53
last spring okay no sounds about right two Springs okay ago and and I stuck

6:00
them all in pots and pretty much all of them you know grew right they became

6:07
like little trees the Twigs turned into trees right right and by trees you know again don't think of this tree outside

6:13
your window I mean they're you know two three feet mm um and two of them were crepe myrtles two of them were dog Woods

6:21
neat and they were getting to the point where they were out growing the pot so I stuck them in my yard I planted them

6:28
yeah and they're growing in and the one Dogwood at the one side of my yard is

6:33
basically the same size as I planted it you know probably what's this 2 and2 ft

6:39
three feet i' give you that the other one on the other side of the yard is if

6:44
you hold a branch up it's taller than me like oh wow and it's crazy like we might well see it

6:50
from here no no but I hear you yeah so it's just fascinating to see how stuff

6:56
grows sure but yeah I I could on oh have you ever have you ever have you ever

7:03
grown a tree from a seed uh like planed yes yes

7:11
well is I mean is so we have a lemon tree yes and when we harvested the

7:20
lemons from last year we got like five and then it got really cold this winter so we're not going to have any this year

7:26
but I got one I got the seeds out of it but I also got the seeds out of lemons we got from the grocery store and I put

7:32
them all in my little incubator thing which it's not hard to incubate seeds just know you just get a wet damp paper

7:40
towel you stick it in a Ziploc bag in a dark place warm place sure and you come

7:47
back a month later and you'll see little Roots trying to come out and you just stick it yeah so I did that with a lemon

7:55
seed and I have one grown out there it's probably so yes 10 inches tall yeah okay so

8:03
you've you you went from a seed to a twig yeah yeah exactly a twig right now

8:09
lemon twig yeah cool yeah no I was just thinking about it from that Arbor Day and I I was even thinking about it from

8:14
The Mustard Seed even if you will you know how a mustard seed can grow into a you know large tree and yeah mhm yeah

8:25
turns out though it's much easier to grow things from just cuting you know just gotcha um there's those little

8:32
little branches that grow up from the bottom of the trees called Suckers yep if you just cut those off and stick them

8:38
in a pot man you'd be surprised how many things will grow just by doing that yeah a lot a lot of things most things most

8:46
things yeah it is impressive almost it's almost like a design to do that almost

8:51
almost exactly yes I had no idea it was this easy to grow stuff yeah so where

8:56
does that passion come from for you where where would you see that I mean is that something you've is it just the

9:02
fact that you have a house now and you have property yeah or yeah that

9:10
was the kicker right cuz now there was a place to put these pots I I I never even

9:16
the idea never occurred to me prior like to do this but again that Magnolia is

9:21
stuck in a pot and I've now planted that I forgot to mention this I planted two

9:26
Magnolias in my yard and again one is probably four feet the other one is also

9:32
about four No 5 feet and the but the other one is super wide like it looks

9:38
like a magnolia Bush it's crazy um so yeah I think just seeing

9:43
like oh this stuff will grow and not only will it grow but it grows in a meaningful it grows a meaningful amount

9:50
amount within a year where in my mind trees took 50 years right which they do

9:57
right but you'd be to know like how much you know a tree can go from one foot to

10:02
two feet that's I don't know it's just fascinating to watch it yeah and so I

10:09
think to turn this into a less nerdy thing I guess it's all nerdy everything

10:15
we talk about can be nerdy but uh I hear you um there's something about it and

10:20
like once I started getting into this that that's when I started stumbling into a lot of like quotes and and

10:27
Megan's been gardening more and so we both kind of I've seen all like there's this whole culture around gardening

10:33
around growing things about like it just brings peace it's a way to you know I guess

10:42
disconnect from all the stuff going on and I don't know there's just something

10:48
about it yeah a disconnection from this and a connection sure yeah um yeah and what I

10:56
was sharing with you earlier is like there's so many metaph for that have come to life as a result of growing my

11:03
own trees my own stuff and seeing I mean verses right like sure

11:11
talking about be careful about weeds they'll choke out you know growth and like seeing like yeah that's true I got

11:17
to weed my pots and you know so that the thing can grow and seeing that you reap

11:23
what you sew like yeah as I sew you know I I dug up some soil from the back where

11:31
there's some dollar weed and I planted some trees and I've SE oh look at that there's dollar weeds in my pot right

11:38
like I'm reaping what I sewed and whether I recognize it or not it came

11:43
along for the ride yes yeah and just and then also like you reap what you sew in

11:50
the good way right like plant a seed it turns is turning into a little lemon shot that hopefully will be you know

11:57
Tree in a pot at some point you know yeah um yeah and then just the like you

12:07
said reconnection I guess to yeah I was thinking about that even more because as we were talking about topics you know

12:13
it's like the whole cyborg thing you know and how connected we are to technology whether we realize it or not

12:19
type thing not going that far but I think there is something to be said for you know that balance of connecting with

12:27
technology and having to do something faster and faster versus the ability to

12:33
step back towards nature as a balance and and to have to weed and to cultivate

12:40
and I think there's something to be said for that that you know sometimes I think we miss out on and I and I and I think

12:47
for me as you were talking about even that part it's like I hated weed in a garden as a kid I really did you know

12:54
cuz it was just something I had to do but now it's like like if I have a

13:00
moment to just pull weeds or when I have a moment it's it is just kind of

13:05
a yeah it's a it's a it's a connection that I can you know make and it and it's

13:12
and I'm recognizing the not that I didn't see the um the benefit or the the you know

13:21
the yeah what's not the benefit but um the opposite of a consequence it's like

13:28
the reward the reward to a certain degree but you know you can look and say

13:34
oh I can see the plant that is supposed to be growing there not all the weeds that go along with it yeah you know and

13:40
that's refreshing rewarding in that context and yet it's something more than

13:46
that because it does seem as if I've you know almost in my in my sense of who I

13:53
am I've saved those plants from I've beaten back to a certain

13:59
degree the the what the things that wanted to take over and I've created a a

14:06
sense of order to a certain degree I just you know and I think you know in our humanness that's probably part of

14:14
what you know makes us like God this desire to create order and to to beat

14:19
back those things that just want to be invasive yeah not that no nothing

14:25
against your vines or anything but there's iive yeah but I think there are there can be a lot of things in our

14:32
lives that if we don't beat them back with discipline or structure that kind

14:38
of thing you know they they can invade and you know and Technology may be one

14:44
of those things not to seem like I'm anti- technology but you know being able to create those boundaries

14:52
yeah yeah that's good in uh you know that there's the parable of sewing seeds

14:57
that Jesus talks about you know some seeds fell on rocky soil some fell into briers right and they got

15:03
choked out and um I mean it's very much kind of like what you're saying

15:09
where our soil needs again these metaphors just come to life right like

15:15
sure but our soil needs to be paid attention to and and the things growing

15:20
up around us and you know you mentioned technology which is a perfect example I am I I work in technology that's that's

15:28
what I do and I've had and I work from home um and so

15:33
it's so easy for me especially the first few years to just get to plug into the Matrix right and just kind of live in

15:41
that Matrix so even when I was around my babies right when they were babies you know I was looking at my phone I was

15:46
still plugged in The Matrix catching up on Twitter like kind of trying to stay in this network right while while also

15:54
vaguely also trying to be part of this one and um you know that's stuff I had

16:01
to learn over time like that was choking choking out the real living plants I

16:06
needed to nurture right like yeah the time with my family sure and there was

16:11
certainly a time where that was a sore spot with Megan anytime I was on my phone it was a trigger and I could be

16:18
looking at Google Maps but as often as I looked at Twitter it it might have well

16:23
been the same to her you know and just like you're on your phone again can you come back to the family that kind of

16:29
thing and she was right like yeah it took some years to kind of re-calibrate

16:35
and some accountability you know yeah recognizing okay she's probably right I probably need to work on this now I

16:43
pretty much gave up Twitter wow yeah and and that was that wasn't because of a

16:48
personal Integrity I did a great job it's because the 2016 election came along and I couldn't take it anymore I

16:55
couldn't take the vitri all I mean that's that's I think big part of why this podcast came to be was because of

17:03
the mudslinging across both lines sure all that you know Division and

17:10
polarization and recognizing like man just creating these sides and I couldn't

17:16
take it so I got off Twitter and mostly got off Facebook and just started to

17:21
connect with real people in real life and you know and that's been a huge shift you

17:29
started planting mhm yeah started weeding yeah yep started pulling out the

17:34
invasive Vines of Twitter and Facebook you know what I mean and um and and I

17:41
also want to be very clear that there's a lot of benefits to Twitter to Facebook to technology to all those things

17:51
and I for instance I got my career started in web development because of

17:56
Twitter because of the relationships I built on Twitter oh I got you almost

18:02
100% um and I I saw the job listing on Twitter I replied on Twitter Hey I'm

18:08
interested they responded yeah you know apply here on Twitter you know what I mean and then someone that I had done

18:15
some tiny bit of work with in the development world that I met locally

18:21
responded to those tweets and said yeah you should check this guy out he's done good work oh this is all via Twitter you

18:27
know and that's what kickstarted my career was Twitter and these relationships and so um I think there

18:34
was a there's a lot of power in these social networks and what's available

18:39
there um but they exactly they can become vines that choke out you know the

18:45
the the stuff that you have and for some people that is the stuff they have the networks they have online is their

18:52
primary uh social family and that's okay like again I'm not this is not about

18:59
judgment but I can tell you well I I think I can say unequivocally if you

19:05
have you know a toddler in front of you but you can't pay attention because you're staring at your network your

19:12
social network on your phone I think that's a problem I do at least it certainly was for me and I I think it's

19:19
probably true to say generally now again there's so much downtime in parenting

19:25
and of course you f it with looking at your phone that's whatever I'm not this is not about judgment it's just about

19:31
the balance and recognizing you know those weeds yeah getting back to the weeds metaphor and

19:39
yeah yeah and I think the other thing that one of the principles that has

19:45
really become ingrained in me is two sides of the same coin which is how long

19:50
things take and how how I'm going to say quickly mhm think

19:58
grow but I don't mean quick it's it takes time but if you just do what you

20:04
should do you keep your head down you keep it weeded you know MH over time you'll see growth and it's incredible

20:10
it's like wow look at this this grew in my yard like I have this whole corner of nonsense things I'm growing different

20:16
trees different whatever and again like we'll buy we have a a regular Jasmine

20:24
not Carolina Jasmine but like an actual Jasmine Vine that we re re kind of configured into a bigger trellis nice

20:31
and some you know some parts fell off we cut them off or whatever so I just stuck them in pots and I want can I grow more

20:37
Jasmine and then sell them you know whatever yeah um and it's just so cool

20:42
to see like with minimal effort and a little bit of love and attention like

20:47
sure things will grow now it's not going to happen overnight I just stuck those in the pots last week they look the same

20:53
as they did last week yeah but I'm like I've seen this before so I know it could happen right no doubt and I don't know

21:01
there's just something so valuable in recognizing that things take time and that's okay yeah but also they don't

21:07
take as much time as we think they will sure if we cultivate it kind of brings back yeah it uh it brings back that uh

21:15
almost a legacy type Dynamic and and sometimes you know we may not be able to

21:22
accomplish as much as we think we can in a year but we can accomplish more than

21:28
we thought we could in five years that process of just continuing yep and I and

21:35
I and I think that's I think you know things do it's kind of like with your

21:40
seeds I think you know the things that are important to us kind of have a way of

21:47
becoming present you know the things that are really important to us tend to last because those are the things that

21:55
we put our energy to we cultivate yeah and those things you know over

22:01
time they they gain momentum you know it's like yeah once we

22:07
get if we can get it beyond that seed if we can get it beyond that twig we don't mow it over you know when it's in the

22:14
twig stage in the same height as the weeds and we hit it with a weed whacker you know and have to start over again

22:21
you know but we know once we get it to a point it can it can it can Thrive yeah

22:27
and I think deer come along well you know and is and is that even part of the

22:32
the weed weer stage and then yeah yes but I think of it you know we've done

22:38
mission statements you know and you know and that kind of thing it's like what

22:43
the the planting is is is kind of a metaphor for that to a certain degree

22:49
and U and it's interesting as as I hear your story you know kind of how even

22:56
as steeped I'll I'll put it in as you are in technology how refreshing that

23:03
ability to step back to the plants is for you you know as you've created that

23:10
opportunity to step away and and recognize you know yeah even with your

23:15
kids that's a that's a part of the planting that you continue to

23:20
do and I and I think it's a it's a it's a good concept to be mindful of when we

23:27
when we think about how we spend our time and and you know our desire and

23:33
also just understanding natural systems is so valuable I think when you spend so

23:39
much time online and in that in social networks and all that it you can kind of

23:44
lose sight of natural systems but they don't go away we just lose sight of them yeah and

23:50
so you know winter has been interesting here because all my stuff dies right

23:56
like all the leaves fall off all the trees all my little growing you know things all the pots the weeds die whatever and

24:04
it's just like a wasteland and you know the first year that happened I was like

24:09
well that was a fun experiment right sure in my mind it's like well some of

24:15
this might come back but this is there's a lot of death like this looks this looks dead well there's difference

24:21
between death and dorcy sure it's is again something I'm like relearning or

24:27
learning in fresh new way with this kind of growing stuff yeah cuz in Spring you

24:34
go oh wait is that a leaf coming out of what it's not dead you know and seeing and then you give it a month two months

24:40
you're like this thing's not dead it is alive and well yeah and uh like just

24:46
looking out there now it's like a jungle next to my garage because of all the stuff I'm growing but I know come you

24:52
know January or whatever it's going to just look like a bunch of ugly pots that you

24:58
I don't know it's and but knowing that that cycle is a thing is so important to growing things right so recognizing that

25:06
in that in that context for you personally can you remember or are you

25:13
when you think about being dormant can you remember a time in your life where it seemed as if you were just in Winter

25:22
you were dormant yes and yet there was a spring that came because of it or after

25:30
it yeah certainly um man I mean there's just a lot of different directions I

25:37
could go with that I think of less less dormant in more like the seed stage yeah

25:43
um was in my early 20s before I started doing any real work on myself

25:51
and um and life was just tough and life didn't make sense and everyone was

25:57
against me and I was trying to figure out my place in the world and then I started uh I read the book Seven Habits

26:04
for highly effective people and right near the end of reading that book I

26:10
started my first Celebrate Recovery 12 sub group and between those two things

26:16
that was like you know going from a seed to a Seedling it's was like

26:22
whoa there there there was a lot of things missing and now that I have some fertilizer and some knowledge you know

26:28
like can cultivate some things I can immediately see growth immediately see

26:35
you know these leaves popping out I can see how in the future maybe there'll be some fruit off that Branch you know that

26:41
kind of thing yeah um so again that's not necessarily dormant but then there's

26:46
been periods where yeah I was growing growing growing and then you know uh well one example is uh I was a house

26:54
painter um and I painted houses for a living and that was what I did and then 2008 happened that

27:01
whole housing dilemma and economy nonsense and the painting houses wasn't

27:09
a thing anymore right who's going to paint their house and they don't have the money to buy food right and so I

27:15
lost my job doing that and so for about two years I didn't have a official full-time job I did a lot odds and then

27:22
little painting jobs for people and um did a lot of volunteer work but I would

27:28
say those two years was definitely a season of dorcy for me yeah and but out

27:34
of that this this whole thing about that Twitter conversation I was saying this came as a result of two years of dorcy

27:40
slowly into uh working on my skills in terms of building websites and just as

27:47
part of my volunteering efforts and recognizing like hey I think I can maybe promote this as a thing in terms of

27:53
getting a job um Andor freelancing and so did some freelance which I was able

28:00
to use as part of my meta uh your freelance yeah you talking about

28:06
the air conditioner we left the air conditioner on so you might hear a buzz that's all

28:12
right uh yeah so I don't know that's one example of I think dormy where then I

28:18
got into this career it was like my life kind of took off in a sense where okay now I have this new career path and I

28:24
loved it and I did really good in it and that was part of part of the getting lost in my social

28:32
network Twitter and was just a passion right like for this new growth this new

28:38
Journey so again you know I want to be careful not to overstate things because I think we so easily

28:45
can vilify things that are not the villain the the problem is sure in

28:52
inside of us and we we say oh social media is the problem social media is a problem especially

28:58
if you're you're not pruning it you know but yeah I don't know does that count does of course no that's just you're off

29:05
the cuff very deep question well was uh was that off the cuff you asked supp but still yeah I was

29:12
thinking about it in that context of yeah of I think we

29:17
have I think it's important that we're able to see because I think so often we

29:23
can look at our current dormant stage if that's where we find ourselves and say

29:30
and go to that black and white thinking that says there's nothing good here yeah this is terrible this is awful I can't

29:37
deal with this and yet we've been there

29:43
before but it's only by hindsight that when we look back we can say oh okay

29:50
this is another dormant stage um there's a there's a preparation that's happening here I may

29:57
not necessarily be able to see it but yet the materials are here like you you

30:04
shared you know all all the things were in place the fertilizer and what have you but then there was this moment where

30:11
I did this and then suddenly everything shifted and it became like that

30:18
Springtime because you know in the midst of that context everything was available

30:23
I just needed to make a little shift mhm and I think you know so of

30:28
often in our humanness we can say no this is terrible and we just try to

30:35
avoid it at all costs and we end up exerting more energy and and you know

30:40
going down a a road that might be unhealthy just trying to avoid it versus

30:46
being able to sit with it and recognize it as a cycle as a

30:52
season and being able to move forward in it yeah I mean for me there's a very

30:58
personal correlation to what you're saying and that you know I've talked about this so far but I struggle with depression once in a while and sure um

31:05
last year I had I did some counseling with someone for a period of time and right along that time is also when have

31:13
gone through my first winter here seeing those things die and kind of start to

31:18
come back and there was some and basically what I one of the big

31:24
takeaways from That season of counseling and working through some things was a recognition of the value of

31:30
winter cuz to me winter was always a reality but I hated that reality um

31:36
especially I grew up in Minnesota so winter was long and it was gray and it was cold it was most of the year it was

31:44
most of the year I mean for real no I see n months whatever I mean and then

31:49
you'd see you know Springer around the corner and then you get a a snow dump yeah and just crush your spirits and uh

31:57
yeah so it just was something that I always saw as um a reality but not

32:05
something I felt was valuable you know yeah you didn't see the value in it yeah yeah and

32:12
I think that's one of the things the counselor worked with me about he wasn't

32:18
using this metaphor but just understanding like some seasons of down

32:23
time and and whatever just all these things they are valuable for various

32:29
reasons and mhm I was able to recognize for me very specifically winter is

32:35
triggering and the beginning of fall things the the seasons get or excuse me

32:40
the days get shorter you know a little bit darker a little bit cooler things start dying things start falling off the

32:47
tree leaves Etc and it all just represents death and

32:53
depression and discouragement for me and so I've done a lot of work recently to

33:01
try and rethink those things and then specifically winter recognizing and this

33:06
is something you know Megan and I have talked about too like there was some Saturdays that I spent all day Saturday

33:13
with the kids playing fortnite mhm I remember cuz it was Winter and there was

33:18
no pots to tend to yeah there's no yard to mow um and it was the season for that

33:25
you know and so she and I have Ted about that a lot like as I've talked to her

33:31
about kind of my new Under you know embracing of winter and all that there's there are good things to

33:38
Winter there are good things to that time of uh dormancy you know and rest is

33:44
a big part of that where um yeah there's just so much go go go in

33:50
summer and it's all fun it's all good and I I love it but I I recognize I couldn't maintain this all year long

33:58
yeah but I've never had to yeah right it never occurred to me to have a sense of

34:04
gratitude for that cycle yeah and to embrace that cycle and so that's what I'm really working on and I think I do

34:11
think the the planting things and seeing those Cycles seeing the value of winter

34:17
and and and how things come back to life and how it doesn't kill them and in some

34:23
cases the dormy creates resilience right yeah whatever you know just all those

34:28
things are all tying into this journey which is very interesting and I think it's interesting too when you think

34:34
about it in the context it almost when you think about winter you

34:39
know next Winter's coming and and yet you also know the

34:45
next spring is coming yeah and it almost make from my perspective it it almost makes the years shorter it does yeah

34:53
because because you know it's like it's not like Endless Summer we recogn that and it's like okay what I'm not going to

35:00
get done this year I can I might be able to do next year you know and say that

35:06
crop or those plants you know don't do well this year the the season might be

35:12
better for them next year you know and I and I think there's there's a optimism in that yeah because you know we can

35:19
recognize okay yeah that didn't do well but then again this did do well you know

35:25
I had this area of growth you know and those seeds that I planted had a good

35:31
return maybe not the ones that I thought I wanted to but I think you know in that

35:36
concept of planting you plant it all mhm and you recognize that okay this is the

35:43
year and we in our garden we planted a bunch of stuff but you know with Chris's

35:49
dad and you know the weeds that came up while we were you know she was there and I was trying to tend you know do the

35:56
weeds that had to be weeded you know prioritizing it's like you know we come back and you know and this we're calling

36:01
this this is the this is the year of the Cucumber because you know the the funny part of it was you know we we took our

36:08
composting out and we scattered that you know to on the ground and Road till and

36:13
it was so somebody had evidently thrown some uh cucumbers you know seeds in the compost so we got these cucumbers but

36:20
you know this is the summer the Cucumbers all the stuff that we planted maybe did honestly didn't do as well

36:28
as the Cucumbers that we just kind of put out there accidentally with the compost to be perfectly honest but you

36:34
know it's like it that's a reminder for me that yeah okay this is the this is the year of the Cucumber but at the same

36:42
time you know the other plants are doing well but it's just it's just the fact

36:48
that I think sometimes our plants yeah can be a little more they

36:56
they they don't always have have to work out the way that we thought they would

37:02
right and it's and even when they don't it's not necessarily A Bad Thing and

37:08
there's a reason yes I agree there's a reason that

37:14
the Bible and Jesus uses nature as a metaphor so often look at the flowers of

37:19
the field they don't worry about tomorrow you know look at The Sparrows of the air they're happy and happy gol

37:25
lucky because they know they don't have to worry about their food tomorrow it'll just be there they understand the systems intuitively they were created

37:32
for that and and so were we you know and you know this whole idea that you

37:38
just described where I had plans for this thing to grow and flourish but

37:45
instead this thing did MH is very much exactly how life works right and if you

37:53
have this metaphor of creation to look at it's much easier to say yeah this is

38:01
natural this is this is like you said now we can appreciate the cucumbers and recognizing the the humor that's there

38:07
and the irony but also recognizing that but hey we got cucumbers you know and

38:13
it's not all is not lost or whatever um or for me like some of the trees I planted last year was really excited

38:21
about like I planted a bunch of fruit trees MH and I would say none of them really have grown that much the apple

38:27
trees grew quite a bit last year but this year not much at all and I don't know why I don't know what that's about

38:33
but then like I said that dogwood tree just exploded like it's growing growing growing and it was a little guy in my

38:40
pots and now it's almost bigger than me and that's really cool you know um and

38:47
then yeah just seeing how some things grow some things don't and it's all part

38:52
of the system it's all part you know and I think again living in the

38:58
digital world it's easy to lose sight of the natural systems that play but yet

39:04
they still are like in fact if you look at our sales numbers and stuff for our

39:09
product you'll see that there are correlations to the Natural seasons of the year you know what I mean and and

39:15
various things which is I think is fascinating you'll see habits shift as the light there's less light in the day

39:21
even though we have lights we can turn on we still act differently you know and

39:27
so like you might plan for a season that this thing that you're that you planted you're going to grow it and cultivate it

39:34
and I mean in business right and then find out oh this other thing is flourishing I guess maybe and again just

39:41
like in real life you can continue to try and cultivate this thing that's not super happy and force it and try and

39:47
fertilize it whatever and maybe you get some growth out of it or you could say maybe we should focus on the Cucumbers

39:53
because they're doing really well and maybe we can figure out a new plan that works with that cuz it's something we didn't anticipate and

39:59
it's these natural systems are throughout life and I

40:05
think you know like you said using the word connected when I get reconnected to those natural systems looking at my pots

40:13
weeding looking at the new growth in the spring it really enhances my view it's

40:19
like a enhanced Vision into the the the rest of life right yeah and I think

40:26
that's a big part of what I'm in enjoying about it too it's just man these metaphors just pop to life when

40:32
you see it in reality in real life plants you know yeah I was thinking

40:38
about it even with your as you brought up the apple tree you know I think you

40:43
know so often we we we may plant things that are pretty but we may not

40:50
necessarily plant things that are fruitful MH you follow me that you know

40:56
a bush versus a tree an apple tree or something and I'm thinking about that you know from that aspect of uh what

41:03
things are you planting for long term you follow

41:08
me yeah what things do you desire to see

41:13
become more and more fruitful in the next 10 years 15 years 20

41:21
years as I think about you know those apple trees of of Our Lives if you will

41:28
mhm well before I get into the deep answer

41:33
you you mentioned the the magic number 20 and it made me think of my favorite quote about trees which is when is the

41:40
best time to plant a tree 20 years ago sure and I I thought about that quote so

41:46
many times yeah you know because it's like a lot of the trees that I'm

41:53
planting there's no guarantees I'll be here in 20 years yeah but if I am I'll

41:59
be so thankful I've stuck it in the ground today you know what I mean and also recognizing that 20 years is not

42:05
the payoff although being new to this I thought it was right right but one year

42:12
you get a payoff two years you get a payoff like every year you get to see a little bit more growth it your landscape

42:18
looks a little bit different cuz now it's this tall and not that tall and now oh I can't see that thing anymore cuz

42:25
this tree is covering it and yeah I don't know just like it's interesting and um and also too recognizing that

42:32
when you plant a tree you don't plant for this thing that's 1ot tall by one

42:38
foot wide yeah you have to think about what is this going to be in 20 years and that's how I have to plant it so when

42:44
they tell you how the distance plant between yeah it's 6 feet 12T depending

42:49
on the species yeah yeah and you're like yeah but this is Tiny you know exactly

42:55
it needs to be up close to the house cute we got to take care of it and uh

43:02
yeah just when you plant things you plan for that growth you plan for that growth

43:08
and so yeah now you can tie that back into what you were trying to say well no I was thinking about it what are what

43:14
from that aspect what are you planting now for 20 years you know as a Cu uh

43:21
Mark Batterson you know a circle maker he talks about the guy that planted the you know the tree I forget what the tree

43:28
was but he you know planted a tree for his grandchildren you know he because

43:35
his father had his father his grandfather had planted trees for him to

43:40
benefit from you know and I was thinking about that as we think of you know what are what are you currently planting you

43:47
know what do you have with that mission statement possibly that 20 year what are you doing

43:54
today with that okay 20 years from now still the year the five year the 10 year

44:01
benefits but what do you what are you planting

44:07
for I think a few things that certainly come to mind um are well a primary one

44:14
is relationships and recognizing that just kind of going back to that looking at Twitter instead of my 18 month old on

44:21
the floor you know the eight years ago right um and recognizing that the

44:29
relationships in front of me are the the kind of the 20year plan yeah and the

44:34
Twitter relationships are not yeah you know I hear you there'll be new Twitter

44:39
followers in 20 years the the face on the other side of that Twitter screen usually is interchangeable no I've met

44:47
some a lot of these people and they become real friends and that's the benefit of a social network right the

44:53
these are real people you can become real friends with but all that being said um some of the relationship and

45:01
that ties very much into Celebrate Recovery too and recognizing that some of the relationships that I have built

45:08
Through The Years through Celebrate Recovery are now those 20 you know years later trees in my life that they are

45:16
core parts of my family you know lot you know extended family right yeah um and

45:24
so for me this is an I'm sure not the answer you were looking for in terms of

45:29
like whatever but relationships to me are so important and to cultivate them

45:35
they're like trees to me like all my little trees that I'm growing out there it's like if I can add a new tree and

45:40
cultivate it that's awesome you can you there's no such thing as too many trees growing in your yard you know in little

45:46
pots and you're cultivating see and how will this play out whatever and maybe we give it away maybe you know maybe

45:53
someone wants to buy it on Facebook marketplace now that's the metaphor is breaking down this podcast is brought to

46:00
you by Justin's trees Justin's plants exactly that's a good

46:07
idea no I mean I'm not going to like put my friends on Facebook Marketplace because it didn't work out but you know

46:13
what I'm saying uh just it's really there's almost no downside to

46:19
cultivating new relationships now there are definitely a limit to the

46:25
number of relationships in any given person can have it sure I heard in a good book it described as um

46:34
like Lego pieces like some of us have like we're a big Bri brick right where we have eight connector blocks and we

46:41
can connect eight other relationships and some of us are the four or the two and we're you know we need two good

46:47
relationships and sure so they're not all built the same and I I recognize that and I recognize there's a

46:53
limit but um I don't know the investment in people um through celebrate covery

47:00
and some of those relationships has been a key part of like when I think about walking down

47:08
the aisle to my own funeral and what people are saying or whatever to to

47:14
recognize that hopefully people would say he was a person who invested in people you know

47:22
what I mean who built relationships who uh was a friend to anyone that kind of

47:28
thing mhm and it takes work it takes cultivation and

47:35
um I don't know in terms of like building a thing or creation or

47:41
whatever um this podcast is part of it like being able to communicate things

47:47
I've learned is a part of like a 20y Year Legacy whatever that is that I want

47:53
to have done I want to have shared some of the things I've learned with anyone who will listen well this is a great

48:01
Avenue for that right yeah and you know the number of people that will listen is

48:06
not up to me but what is up to me is to share you know and I feel like that's part of part of that 20-year plan is sure

48:14
yeah what about you from a 20-y year plan sure answer

48:20
your own question Yeah by all means um it's interesting because I I think about

48:25
my own kids of course and I have a 20-year-old daughter and a 22-year-old son and I and I think about it I do

48:33
think about it from the aspect of you know that opportunity to watch them you

48:40
know kind of become their own individual you know

48:45
and recognizing that yeah another 5 10 years you know they're may be grandkids

48:51
you know there may not be but at the same time the reality is it's a Poss

48:57
ability and I and I think about it even in uh the aspect of you know what we're

49:02
doing you know with the the Ministries we desire as far as you

49:07
know renovation and and you know out to the property and eventually you know you

49:13
know Sparrow's rest Ty type type thing where you know ultimately it's about you

49:18
know wanting to invest in other marriages you know help people with

49:23
their marriages in such a way that you you know they they survive this fiveyear type awareness

49:32
that they're you know currently in this this this tornado if you will of you

49:38
know getting married and the reality of their you know relationship and how

49:43
they've shifted from you know that friendship focused relationship to a

49:49
fixed focused relationship that it's about fixing what's wrong with you you

49:55
know versus EX excuse me accepting who you are and recognizing that our differences

50:02
are what can you know help create that growth if you will and it's it's worth

50:08
our while to continue to cultivate this relationship because yeah there's a lot

50:13
of weeds that need to be taken out of it out of the relationship but if we can

50:19
focus on it I do think our marriages are much like Gardens you know we want to

50:25
think at times that they're just able to maintain themselves

50:31
you know I can do my thing you can do your thing and we'll just still have a wonderful marriage and it will go the

50:37
distance when in reality that's not the case you know because there are things you know the Wilderness comes in and we

50:43
got to beat that back and we got to cultivate our marriage we got to cultivate our relationship in order for

50:51
it to grow and it's going to take work and I think sometimes you know in our

50:57
in our culture if you will people don't realize or don't want to recognize they

51:03
want to you know have they want to maintain a feeling and you know and once that

51:08
feeling is gone well then so is the relationship the marriage is is it's

51:13
just you're the wrong person and it's the the desire to

51:19
continue to cultivate who I am kind of like you described and recognize that

51:25
you know healthy individual ual make healthy relationship you know and I think that

51:30
becomes part of my message or part of my part of our I of course include Chris in

51:36
that you know whatever I do she she just makes it better you know when she's with

51:42
me and that process of encouraging you know couples and so forth but I think for me that's

51:49
my I've probably been doing this almost eight years now you know as I look at

51:54
you know from a timeline perspective and that that's what I want to be doing that's what my passion is you know

51:59
that's what I want to be doing I want to be you know helping people cultivate relationship you know that um has a has

52:07
a legacy for each and every person you know and I think you know that that becomes my you know 20 year that becomes

52:15
my 25 year you know yeah for me that's good that's really good I think it's

52:23
it's interesting that relationships are a key part of both of what we Shar I think and I think the reality is that

52:31
that that is one of the most important things we can grow In Our Lifetime right

52:37
yeah that's family that's friendships that's yeah if you don't have those things what do you have you know yep I

52:46
uh yeah and go ahead and and I think I I I feel for people you know who who do

52:56
have to move frequently yeah you know what I'm saying or you know because of

53:02
their job circumstances or whatever you know to where I you know I think about

53:08
it even as we went home and you know for Chris's dad and that kind of stuff and I see my parents and my parents you know

53:15
have been in their house for yeah since the 60s you know so yeah 60 years they

53:23
some trees they do they do they've got some trees and you know and I and I and

53:28
I see the blessings of that I I can also see sometimes you know the more we're in a space you know our world can become

53:35
smaller you know and you know with age I think that can happen and that's no

53:41
offense to anybody that's aging but yeah it's for me too you are but I think about it in that

53:48
context of you know people who don't have the or or it's difficult

53:54
to build long-term relationships cuz I I think about it even you know probably some of the closest relationships Chris

54:00
and I have are the people that we raised family with you know in this area you

54:06
know that's our kids grew up together that created a lot of connection and I

54:13
think about it from that planting Dynamic you know to where yeah so that's

54:18
that's kind of what comes to mind there and I so I do feel for people that are TR you know very transient in their jobs

54:27
military even you know I think you know you know yeah and I I think the key is

54:34
still to build relationships you know and I don't know yeah I'm not going to pretend

54:40
to give advice for that but I know that's still key right yeah no I hear you I you know you were talking about

54:47
the people that you spent your life with with your kids growing up MH and how

54:52
those tend to be the ones you end up being close with it made me think of this metaphor which I think is just so

54:57
beautiful which is those really tall you know pine trees that you'll see in

55:02
Forest often they're you know 120 ft tall MH and just a toothpick right right

55:10
and yet they're in a forest full sure and you know a big storm will come along and they're fine nothing happens and you

55:17
think how does a toothpick stay up in the storm you do doesn't make sense and

55:23
then what you'll find out is if they clearcut a bunch of that that land and there's still a clump of them well now

55:28
they can't withstand and it's what it is is The Roots the Roots grow in and around each other like I'm crossing my

55:34
fingers you know and what happens is that creates that stability so when the storm comes well I don't I don't have to

55:42
depend on just my roots when I lean your roots are holding me down and the person you know the tree next to it is holding

55:50
it's roots are and we're all embedded in in and that creates that strength and that that Network right

55:57
where these trees are going to grow similarly and be similarly protected and going to be in you know have similar

56:03
ideologies even and they're going to look similar because they're in the same root system and I don't know I just think it's the metaphors don't stop they

56:11
never stop with trees yeah um are we good to

56:17
wrap up I think so my thought was this as we wrap up yeah if get a plant just

56:24
get a plant learn how to call cultivate a plant maybe you get a garden maybe you do like I to stick a little treeing in a

56:31
pot but do it cuz I think you'll be shocked at like the value that you find

56:36
maybe you kill it well get another one try again sure try putting in more sunlight try watering it less Google it

56:43
see if there's a way it's I think you'll be surprised at the value that it can

56:49
bring to your life which is so weird no doubt but it's worth it yeah

56:56
so this is how we see it Go plant [Music]

57:03
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57:10
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