Mark:

You can ‘t ask me anything.

Justin:

I can ask you anything. You can

Mark:

ask me anything.

Justin:

What should I ask? Well, let me ask you about this book you’re reading, because you sent me a quote this morning.

Mark:

I did.

Justin:

Seems like it’s something that’s pretty interesting to you.

Mark:

It is.

Justin:

I’d love to hear more about this.

Mark:

Well it’s uh it’s been a interesting week, couple weeks. Um as I as it it’s just it’s just funny how in the process of life I think there’s themes that come up You know, as as I’m working with clients or, you know, families or

Justin:

Is your theme this week very itch related or

Mark:

no it is not itch related although I do I do experience a tremendous Nice amount of itching, but not as much as yes before.

Justin:

This is why we have a podcast, not a video.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

You would you would feel very bad for Mark with his case of poison whatever he’s got on him.

Mark:

Exactly. Poison

Justin:

sumac is that?

Mark:

Poison sumac, yes. I re I realize I uh I have a face for radio.

Justin:

Well thankfully I think your beard protected your face. It did. It did. The rest of you

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt, and Justin Sternberg This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

So probably your recommendation for others is Maybe don’t use a chainsaw and poison sumac.

Mark:

Yeah. Okay. I would definitely recommend uh identifying if you’re cutting down a dead tree. And there’s like vines, there’s life growing up it, you might want to identify what that vine is before you just kind of to have at it, you know, hacking away and sawing and you know and yeah bushwhacking through you know poison sumac because you will pay a price There is no doubt. And it will be it will be very beneficial to you know have good health people in your life that can get you on a you know a steroid rather quickly. And so yes, I am very thankful. I’m very thankful too that it just is my on my skin. It could have been a lung, it could have been a true internal thing.

Justin:

‘Cause I’ve heard p stories of people burning

Mark:

poison

Justin:

ivy or whatever. Oh man, I don’t I can’t even imagine.

Mark:

Yes. So like I say I count myself very fortunate that I was cutting it up and, you know, making it into you know fine little pieces and I didn’t inhale enough of that to cause an issue but it was funny even just where my well where the hole in my pant leg was, you know, that part of my knee is just red and

Justin:

those fine little pieces stuck right to you

Mark:

Yeah they did. They did. But yeah Yeah. But I am feeling much better than I was over the weekend. Yeah.

Justin:

Alright, so I’m sorry I interrupted the themes in your life.

Mark:

It’s okay. It’s uh because the reality of it is even that had me thinking on the theme of conflict. Because I think we don’t I think we I think we all view conflict differently. Mm-hmm. You follow me? And it was interesting because I was as I was reading, I uh had this uh I had this uh uh devotional of Tozer, A. W. Tozer for Christian Leaders, and it was talking about some misguided Christian leaders feel that they must preserve harmony at any cost. So they do everything possible to reduce friction. They should remember that there is no friction in a machine that has been shut down for the night. Turn off the power, and you will have no problem with moving parts. Also remember that there is a human society where there are no problems, the cemetery. The dead have no differences of opinion. They generate no heat because they have no energy and no motion, but their penalty is sterility and complete lack of achievement. And I just uh that just it was eye-opening for me when I thought thought about how much of our lives really is a matter of conflict or can have conflict just because there’s motion involved. Like the machine It’s like I I think our lives are very motion-oriented like a machine. And I think to if we think that we can operate or move in some ways without facing resistance or conflict. I think that’s naive. And you know, and I think some cases And here again, it comes back to what my viewpoint of conflict is. You know, is it quote-unquote air quotes type thing? Is conflict good or is conflict bad? You know, because if I tend to view conflict as something that’s bad, I may try to avoid it. But I think in in some cases what I end up doing is just pulling energy away from another system. if I’m trying to avoid conflict. So that relationship will tend to diminish as I try to avoid conflict.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Does that make sense in a in a systems?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because and I and I think so often, you know from the

Justin:

And yet they can go the other way, right?

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Where uh the conflict is so heated that the machine burns up, right?

Mark:

Yes. Yes.

Justin:

I’m just acknowledging the fact that like you said, we all see conflict differently. And also conflict comes in all shapes and sizes and I think what Tozer ‘s referring to is important and needed, you know, conflict.

Mark:

Yes. And

Justin:

of course there’s a line where conflict becomes war. becomes you know or whatever.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I don’t know. And then how we see conflict, you said we all see it differently. It reminds me of when you talked about attachment styles, right? Like depending on how we were raised, conflict might represent

Mark:

yes you know

Justin:

The parent who I needed to keep calm or what you know. I do. Yeah.

Mark:

Because and it and that becomes a you know, in in therapy, m especially marital therapy, you know, one of my key questions will be, Well, how did your hand how did your family handle conflict? How was plan how was conflict resolved? You know, and you know typically it’s that second part, you know, that people really kind of stumble with. Well, you know, it wasn’t necessarily resolved. And therefore, you know, we’re not able to resolve it today. And you know, to actually find resolution. And I think, you know, that’s that’s the part where, you know um recognizing that conflict is a part of relationship. And, you know, a conflict in that maybe that middle ground between pulling back or just burning up, you know, is this ability to get to know one another and understand each other’s differences. In a way that builds intimacy. You know, through conflict. And I think it’s part of what we desire through how I see it is to be able to recognize, yeah, we are different. But yet we can have these conversations that reveal differences and we don’t have to allow them to divide us, but they can actually be a unifying force in some ways.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and it’s interesting how sometimes someone’s difference can represent um basically an inability to accept that person, right? Like and that’s that’s a big again the big thing about how we see it is saying, no, maybe we can accept others because even when they’re different. Right. And recognizing that those differences can bring value to my life. To hear those un differences, understand those differences, to know a real person who disagrees with me and yet, you know, I c I can accept them like it’s such a valuable thing and I just think about even in my in my own marriage like learning how to do conflict over eighteen years of marriage it’s We’ve been learning, right? Yeah. We’re still not grate at it. I would I don’t know that you ever get to a point where you’ve perfected uh conflict, maybe.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, but one of the things I’ve had to learn is that acceptance. Like, oh, okay, that’s how she thinks. Well, that’s okay. I don’t like it. I don’t want that. I would rather her think like me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But It’s okay.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I think that’s maybe what you’re getting at in terms of I mean, that’s not always the resolution of conflict is uh compromise and or acceptance. Sometimes you’ve come to one side or another, but that th I think that’s a a completely acceptable a part of conflict is coming to a place of going, Okay, now I see and that’s good enough. What do you think?

Mark:

And I well and I think part of our the r the reasons that we try to avoid conflict at times has to do with the hurt that we may have experienced within a relationship.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I don’t necessarily want to have to revisit that

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me, but as long as I’m in in some ways, if I’m just ignoring it, you know, it becomes the the elephant in the room type thing. And we’re, you know, not able to address it in such a way that says, okay, this is how I’m seeing it. And I think, you know part of that difference, part of our, you know, experience growing up, you know, has so much to do with how we remember things. You follow me? I think I think in our day and age, um we tend to think that in our brain is a is a video recording You follow me? So when I see an incident and you see an incident, you saw it exactly the same way as I think I’m seeing it based on a video recording. But our our brains don’t work that way. Our brains, you know, store, you know, segments. You know, they they they they bunch and they group and you know, and that’s that becomes kind of the the way our memories are stored. with these, you know, little sound these bites, if you will. And I think, you know, to think that you see the same thing the same exact way I do is part of the mistake we make. Because after all, you should know exactly how you hurt me. Because if you saw it the same way I did. Which I’m thinking you did based on the video recording of my in my head, you know, of course you know how you hurt me. So you should you should know you need to apologize for that. And at the same time, you never even saw the hurt.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You never even saw how What was said or wasn’t said was hurtful where I was concerned based on my viewpoint.

Justin:

Yeah, and like the memories that are stored. Uh I love that thought, the segments or whatever. But they’re also um the peaks and valleys of that memory, kind of the the the the architecture of that memory is defined by who you are. So

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

uh if you think about it like someone who’s colorblind right, if you were to ask ’em to paint the picture, well, it would sound different. Like hey, remember that day when we both went to the lake and there were sailboats or whatever? Can you describe what you saw there?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What they describe is gonna sound different than what I dec saw because of a color blindness, right?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Certain things would probably be diminished in their view. Maybe they didn’t notice the buoy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Because it’s red.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um but they noticed, you know I don’t know, let’s say the lighthouse, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Where my thoughts or you know, my mind was transfixed on this buoy , bright red right in the middle. Sure. You know, that stood out to me. Now of course we’re talking about colors, but take that and apply it to emotions, which we’ve talked about before being like colors, right? This idea that Um maybe in that situation I saw disrespect and you saw um lack of love. I may think I think that’s a common marriage thing, right? Like you didn’t I wanted to feel love there and I wanted to feel respect or whatever and so we paint these pictures and mine has a bright red buoy and yours has a a black and white lighthouse and neither of us see the other thing ’cause we are so transfixed

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Does that make sense? So then our memory is created that way and stored that way.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And like you said, we’re like, well let me pull up the recording. See? Look, Red Bowie. And they’re like Yeah, that’s not what I saw. Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It’s crazy.

Mark:

It is. And it and it and it comes back to that perceptional difference. At times. And I and I like to say I’m not I’m not minimizing everything to perception, but I also have to realize that that is a part of the dynamic that’s involved in that conflict of how I see it. You know, this is what I saw. This is what I heard. And I think when we get to that point of being able When we get so transfixed on what I saw versus what you saw, I think that’s where the difficulty resolving conflict comes from

Justin:

You know, when we’re trying to prove our case kind of thing. Yeah.

Mark:

Because ultimately I have to be right and possibly you have to be wrong to agree with my rightness. Where in reality, if we can take it to the point of saying, okay, that’s how you saw it. And I respect the fact that the lighthouse was more important to you in that moment. moment. Because I do think in some cases, you know, we can have this even as husband and wife.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, our priorities are different. Sometimes work may overcome, you know, the male priority or, you know, family may overcome of you know and it and I think those dynamics neither one wrong

Justin:

right

Mark:

and it’s and neither one wrong you said right no I’m just Joking with you. But but to be able to We’re gonna have a conflict here. But at the same time, the ability to recognize, okay, this is how I see it, and this is how you saw it. And how can we bring those together in such a way that said, okay, this is what this is where the problem lies because I was focused there and you were focused there. And what I heard was that I’m not important to you. And I felt alone. Even though, and how can we both be in that moment? And yet I just come away feeling hurt And you come away feeling that was a great day.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Wonderful memory, you know? Yeah. Being able to see the sailboats and the lighthouse. Oh, oh yeah, and the buoy

Justin:

too. Right.

Mark:

So I think that’s where, and I I from my perspective, I think, you know, conflict can be something we avoid, but I like the way he used the analogy of heat. You know, friction and heat because I think there is something to be said for the benefits of friction as well. You know, when we think about it in terms of fire and you know and those the things that warm us also elicit friction to a certain degree.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Movement, life.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s where it just kinda became for me a a viewpoint over the past couple weeks. is to be able to recognize, okay, yes, like patterns and cycles, you know, if we can recognize we have these patterns and cycles in our lives. it kind of takes away that personal element where you did this to me. Whereas I can see it as part of an interaction, then it minimizes the the personal dynamic and it becomes less reactive. So when I can see conflict in the same way, I recognize it as a source of friction or heat that is just part of movement in life. then it it’s okay. It can normalize it to an extent where there’s nothing wrong with you or wrong with me, the fact that we have a conflict between us.

Justin:

So so based on that analogy of the machine, the heat is you know, you think about a a motor, heat is not a helpful byproduct. Except in the winter sometimes, I think it funnels to your heat.

Mark:

Sure. I mean yeah, however you want to define it.

Justin:

But in a typical like just out driving, there’s so many systems in place to minimize heat and friction and to to address it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think in his analogy, the key thing is that it is a byproduct of a healthy functioning environment machine or whatever. So if you don’t have that then you don’t have the health. I think he his argument wasn’t necessarily that it’s a good thing, although I think there are good things. That’s I’m not saying that’s not true, but I do think the most important takeaway is that If you don’t have conflict, you don’t have relationship.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Or at least not closeness.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Because that is a byproduct of a good, functioning, healthy relationship, is that those differences come to the surface and bump up against each other.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And you should desire a relationship that’s close enough that that happens, not that you desire conflict and

Mark:

Right. Not conflict for the sake of conflict.

Justin:

Right, but conflict as proof of a living, viable, well-oiled machine, w well-oiled being deal with conflict

Mark:

Yes. Right? Exactly.

Justin:

That’s the oil. That’s the okay. Let’s talk about it, right? Versus uh let’s light a match and let’s do this again. Go 12 rounds, like

Mark:

right? Yes.

Justin:

Just maybe think about that analogy with the motor. I think that’s uh such a good yeah, when that motor’s running that’s that’s that’s when so much good stuff’s gonna happen, right?

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Um but it will have that byproduct. of heat and friction.

Mark:

No doubt. And I think there’s a part of healthy relationship as well that isn’t necessarily focused on the friction but healthy maintenance in such a way that says okay yes this is a part of our lives but it’s not the only part of our lives And we have these other systems in place, you know, where we can, you know, bring refreshment in, the oil, if you will, that that helps us say, okay, yeah, we enjoy our time together even though we experience conflict at times as a result of getting to know one another. So I think that’s a the part of it. And it and it uh another another dynamic I think that I kind of equated with this in the process was um there’s a principal Henry Cloud um mentioned it actually came from a client too that um he talks about you know hard easy or easy hard And I think, you know, the the basis of that principle is, you know, we can, if we start with the easy things or try to focus on all the easy things, typically it gets harder as we go. You know, and yet if we start with the hard things, which I think sometimes between individuals can be addressing conflict. it gets easier as we go because the difficult dynamics are addressed at the very beginning. Who I am, who you are, those differences, and then I think we can find an easiness. that goes with that. And I think, you know, that’s a principle that we can, you know, in business or, you know, in other areas. And it just happened to kind of coincide with what I’m experiencing, you know, with just life in general. How, you know, I think our tendency, you know, is to kinda want to do the easy stuff first. And I and granted there’s something to the snowball effect.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, that says that. But if I’m just focusing on the little things and ignoring the bigger things, you know, I think that we can do that in relationship as well.

Justin:

You’re cruising for a bruising.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

Well, I was just thinking the analogy, low hanging fruit.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s kind of the snowball thing. Like there is some value to that. as long as the the bigger thing is in view in terms of i you know in your in your line of sight of things that you’re going to accomplish. right like we are going in other words the avoidance thing is the is the problem here

Mark:

exactly

Justin:

but I do agree like because you think about dating right um When you go on your first date, you’re not alright, let’s figure out the thing we can have, conflict first. And then we’ll do the easy things. It’s it’s sip us milkshake together, right? Right. First, let’s start with what’s your view on, you know, whatever disciplining children or whatever I don’t know, whatever that dispolarizing thing might be, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We don’t do that because of course

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But one could argue that in the course of a dating relationship you should start to do those hard things so that y you know, at some point you go, okay Okay, this probably isn’t the right partner for me, right? So you do have to hit those things and if you don’t you might end up in a relationship where easy and then hard, right? Easy things first and then the hard things come after marriage. um yeah I just as it’s interesting

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

analogy but

Mark:

and and I and I think you know when we view our lives you know whether it’s work or you know Whether it’s relationship or business, I think you know, it’s important to recognize that hard things have to be done. And I think the more that we do hard things at times it’s it’s recognizable that there would be more conflict involved because there is more friction created. by moving bigger things. You know, and it’s so for me that just kind of tied together in a way, you know, even as um even as we’re thinking about, you know, the property and where we want to go and what we want to do. It’s at times you know it’s easy to s feel overwhelmed, you know, especially more so for Chris because, you know, it’s like she just trying to plant a garden some days. you know, and here the insects come, or here the rains come, you know, and there’s this conflict, you know, or this resistance. if you will. And it’s like it ends up wiping out the tomato plants, you know? And it’s like, yeah, that’s frustrating. And yet at the same time it’s like, okay, that’s part of a learning. And then so what do we need to do differently? And you know, and it’s not a and fortunately for her, she uh it’s not so much a matter of giving up, it’s that process of being able to say, okay, this is how we need to do it differently. You know, and some of that may be some things have to be put off till we’re actually out to the property full time where we can actually maintain things. along the way versus expecting them to grow by themselves without our protection or without our maintenance to a degree. Because I think, you know, that I think I think it’s biblical, you know, that the that we’re living in a world that will resist our growth. that we’re living in an environment that is that is counter to what we desire to do at times. You know, take heart. I have overcome. You know, in this world you will have trouble. but take heart, I’ve overcome. Or and I think, you know, we have that ability to overcome. You know, and I and I see conflict as part of that overcoming that we can do, especially within family systems

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean uh family systems are no different than a garden, right? Like we we need maintenance, we need

Mark:

No different Maybe a little different, but yes There are many similarities.

Justin:

Because just like your garden, you know, your relationships need tending, they need gardening, they need they need the weeds pulled, they need shade from some of the sun sometimes. They need watering at keypoint. point, you know, it’s like if you want a good healthy garden, well it requires attention and effort and that’s no different than the the good relationships in your life. But the um Yeah, I think I think in a garden obviously there can be frustration to where the effort I put in didn’t yield what I expected it. it too.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And there can be that tendency, like you said, to say, you know, maybe gardening’s not for me.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, because I you know, I did the X, Y, and Z and I still end up with no tomatoes.

Mark:

So uh

Justin:

maybe tomatoes aren’t for me. Maybe I need to try squash, right? Whatever.

Mark:

Or we take that in a family system and say this relationship isn’t for me.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s what I was

Mark:

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean that

Justin:

you’re hinting at that point.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

No no no but I’m not sure.

Mark:

But if you wanted to continue with a squash with you if you wanted to continue with a squash that’s okay.

Justin:

The point is squash being a new relationship. Right, like let’s try this one. I was like, Well sometimes it just requires sticking it out and learning the patterns, learning the systems and um you know, obviously in a dating relationship that’s the time to go, you know, do I like squash or do I like tomatoes?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Whatever. But there’s something to be said about let me learn how to grow these tomatoes. Okay. So you can’t do this. You do have to do this. This is a non-negotiable, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Or you know, maybe this this year I got lucky in It’s because I didn’t realize how much m rain mattered and it just rained a lot and I just thought I had a green thumb

Mark:

and Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

And that could be like your your honeymoon phase the first year. It’s like it’s just magical, everything’s great, and then it turns out she doesn’t like how I do dishes. Or yeah, I don’t make the bed right or whatever it is. And uh the next year there’s a few more bugs, a little less rain and it requires Effort, it requires learning, it requires modifying, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. And I like the analogy of the difference because I think when we ignore the um the preferences, I’ll guess I’ll call it of certain plants. You know, some needing full sun, some needing shade, some needing, you know, if if we just choose to ignore that that difference and that the difference that you need in your environment for a healthy healthy growth and what I need, it’s like okay, I think that can be an aspect where we we come together and we share the sun at times, but at the same time we can have our individual differences where okay I need a little time time away and I this is my shade. And you can stay in the sun if you want to, but I know um I know myself well enough. If I just stay in the sun all the time, if you’re full sun and I’m partial shade, you know, it’s like I enjoy the sun. But I also need shade too. But

Justin:

it will kill me.

Mark:

Yes. Yes. Whereas you, if if you’re just in the shade all the time and you’re full sun, you know, you’re not gonna thrive there. And I think, you know, you will, you know, in if I may borrow the analogy, you know, you’re gonna fall into that depression, if you will. If you, you know, just try to live in all shade when you’re designed for full sun. You know, that’s gonna that’s gonna harm you in some way. You’re gonna experience a result of that. And I think, you know, to ignore those dynamics is naive.

Justin:

Yes. It’s interesting in both those sides, right? Full sun or prefers particularly the result is the same. Shriveling

Mark:

death. Lack of growth.

Justin:

It’s the results look the same, but often they can come from different reasons and

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, so if if you if yeah, so this that’s one thing obviously I’m sure we both learned in our marriages, right? Is If

Mark:

we are learning one and the other. Yes, because

Justin:

always, right? Uh is if we’re always full sun, well one of us is gonna be very happy and growing, but there’s a chance the other one is starting to shrivel or whatever. And so there’s that balance that we have to recognize. And I think that’s one thing I’ve had to learn is like, no, this is this is not just a cute difference. This is uh a life and death situation, you know, not to be melodramatic, but it’s like that my partner needs certain things that I don’t need or needs an a d a different amount, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so for her n uh in more introverted needing that alone time. She needs that as much as I need my hangout time. Right? Like and we both need those things to be be healthy, growing, whatever. And there’ll be times where we shrivel a little bit because we’re not getting enough. But the point is, it is a need. It’s not just a cute difference. difference between us and it’s like, oh you can get over your introverted self and just learn how to be social or vice versa. Like you can get over your need for

Mark:

And I will say, you know, as we talk about the the similarities between family system systems and plant life. I will say that I think, you know, as we experience marriage or, you know, relationship over time, I think, you know, we can we can change or learn the value of more sun or more shade. You know, because I think about our relationship early on. I was probably more of the full sun. You know, and as I’ve, you know, gotten to know Chris and through our marriage, I would say she may, you know, she was more partial shade. And I think we’ve kind of come you know more towards the middle. I don’t have to be a the sun. I don’t have to be in the sun all the time. I don’t have to be around people. I don’t have to be extroverted all the time And I’ve learned to value you know, that partial sate of pulling back and saying, Okay, yeah, this is just our time or this is just my time and and Chris coming from where she was, she’s better able to understand that need. you know because that doesn’t when i when i’m when i am up to capacity with my extraversion it’s okay to come back and step back and say okay I just need time away and I think as I’ve gotten to know Chris we’ve kind of brought that together she comes at she can definitely be as extroverted It’s not that she, you know, desires it all the time though.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think now we’re at a we’re at a point where we’ve come to appreciate who we both are and I’m not as full sun or extroverted as I was and she’s probably more more extroverted not that she was ever introverted I’d say you know completely but in the an on a continuum if you will you know, to where we’ve both kind of moved a little more towards the center and it’s easier for us to find agreement with what we want to do or how we want to spend our time. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Symbiosis.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That idea of being able to live together in harmony, but not in a way that is compromising but is complementary.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. were because I you know I was thinking about even plants that have preference towards full sun if you gave them what they want that can kill them sometimes too right like it’s Because I think there’s a balance needed in all of creation, right? And so if there’s only sun and never night or never water, never shade, never whatever, well they’re gonna die no matter what their preference. right? Like they might really like the sun and they’ll shoot up, but they their roots are shallow and they fall over and they die, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think about we grew some sunflowers last year.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And man they shot up and they looked like picture perfect, you know, outside our window. Our window’s probably I don’t know eight, ten feet up above the ground and it was like eye to eye with us, you know. And the first little storm came along, a little bit of wind, and they just all kind of went you know, and so we tried tying up or whatever, but It kinda makes me think of that, like they got what they wanted. They got that sun but they probably could have had a few shady days to learn how to grow some roots. You know what I mean? I uh you know, I think that’s true for us as well. Like, I think what I need.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Is all this social engagement, but really it’s trying to fulfill a certain need that I truly have, you know, that isn’t necessarily best served by that resource. It that’s part of what can feed that need. But it shouldn’t be everything. And I’ve talked about this concept of approval addiction or some people call it people pleasing. And it’s like you get your jollies from pleasing people from seeing uh a pleasing face on someone in front of you that you’re trying to appease or please or whatever or approval. You’re like, mm, I made that person proud of me and And it fulfills a certain need that you have, but often that fulfillment is in an unhealthy way that creates a need for more of that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Which again is unhealthy where w but it’d be better if I learned those things through A different process and my roots were growing, right?

Mark:

Sure. And I yeah, I think I think what you’re describing is part of that that conflict that we can face. when if we’re just trying to appease all of the people, you know, in that extraversion we’re going from one relationship to another relationship to another relationship. Because the minute we can’t please that other person, that’s too much conflict for me to deal with.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so I have to I move on. And I think that’s part of the the ability of being able to pull back is to be able to say, no, it’s it’s not about knowing everyone. Maybe it’s knowing ten people well, you know, it and and therefore and and you know for some people it may be, you know, they would prefer three to five close, you know, intimate friends, you know, where other people might want, you know, twenty, you know, thirty more friends, because then that way they can move. And I’m not saying either one’s wrong. But if we’re just focusing on more friends, we’re missing out on part of the ability to build healthy relationship. And I think there is something to be said for, you know, the ability to focus on building friendships from a, you know, intimacy standpoint. I really know who you are and you know who I am. Therefore we’re able to be authentic with one another. And I think, you know, even as couples, you know, when we’re able to recognize the conflicts we have and address them as such, even to be able to address past hurts, Not in a way that brings up the past, but in a way that says, you know what? When We went down that road. You know, when we drove by that place, I were I remember when we had that conflict there. And I was reminded of that today. And you know, and that allows that opportunity for that individual to share a part of who they are in that intimacy that they were reminded of that moment. Not in a way that’s saying that’s your fault, but in a way that says, oh wow, thanks for sharing that. I I didn’t think about it that way. But I appreciate you being willing to let me know that that was a thought that crossed your mind. And is there something I can do to help? Do you do we need to find an alternate route some days? Or you know, is that is that specific to this time of year? Or, you know, when those certain because I think, you know I think there’s something a lot to be said for that because, you know, our body never forgets. It’s a it’s a book that you know it’s a popular but I think there’s a lot to that, you know, in those processes of hurt or conflict when it comes back to that. Oh, I’m not going there again because that hurt too much. And I think, you know, when we when we hold life like that, We tend to pull back from relationship and we miss out on that ability to have that reciprocation that says, oh wow, I didn’t know that I hurt you you that way. Or, you know, even to the point of being able to say, yeah, I did know I hurt you that way. And then that relationship may need to change. Because if I’m uh if I’m hanging around people who deliberately desire to hurt me, okay, then maybe that’s not a healthy relationship. But yet if I’m willing to recognize this is how I hurt and we understand healthy relationship in a way that says, oh wow, okay, thanks for sharing. didn’t know I did it or yeah I can remember saying that but that’s not what I meant. And you know just trying to walk that through in such a way that takes ownership or responsibility.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And I and I think another example, if I may, it it it creates healthy boundaries. You know, if I know where I start and where you stop. you know, then we can both take responsibility for our own what’s in your area to take responsibility for what’s in your yard. You follow me? Because sometimes what’s in your yard might overgrow into mine. You follow me? But that doesn’t necessarily the fact that I’ve allowed that to overgrow into my yard without addressing it with you, that’s my that can become your issue can become my issue.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But if I’m willing to say, okay, you know, Justin, that that big weeping willow, you know, you got some branches. I’m tired of cleaning up all the the the the leaf from that tree. You need to trim my side. Because that’s that’s overgrowing. And I think that’s healthy relationship. Because it’s your your problems aren’t my problems and my problems aren’t your problems because otherwise we’re enmeshed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But when we have a healthy boundary, I know what I’m what I own, what I have control, air quotes, over, or but ultimately what I’m responsible for.

Justin:

Yeah, because in that analogy, I’m responsible for m my resentment of that tree and those leaves in my yard.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Like that’s on me. I can’t blame the other person for my resentment.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

But it is their tree, and I can say that is your tree, you need to trim it. And that’s how I deal with my side, which is the resentment is the first resentment. Is the desire for vengeance. I’m gonna grow my own tree.

Mark:

Yes. Versus just saying, hey, be addressing it in a form of healthy conflict even before it grows to resentment.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, not that resentment isn’t a reality, don’t get me wrong.

Justin:

That you know, the struggle with me is I don’t often know it’s a conflict until I feel the resentment. Oh, okay so that that might be a system that’s broken in my brain, but um yeah, I tend to overlook a thing and an issue until it’s starting development resentment and then it becomes difficult to resolve because it’s resentful. We can break down my issues as a different point, but I’d love to.

Mark:

No, but that’s interesting. That’s a great analogy, you know, as far as, you know, how people handle conflict differently Because I think there is something to be said for, you know, when I start to think it, you know, it’s like, wow, that tree is starting to get a little over the line. And that might be a time to be able to say, hey, have you noticed? Because this is what I’m noticing. You follow me? Versus versus well I’m I don’t want to deal with that today. And you know, today becomes two years and then suddenly I spend more of my time and I’m losing my grass and I’m you know, I’m raking up your leaves, and at that point it’s like, I’m ready to cut your tree down. I’ll just come across the yard.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know? And and do that. And I think that that’s a you know a good analogy for what resentment can be.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is that saying, yeah, taking what is And also

Justin:

you’re making that tree grow like that on purpose. I know what you’re doing.

Mark:

Yes, you did that on purpose. You planted that tree just to kill my grass.

Justin:

Right

Mark:

And you you’re trying to give me something to do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

As if I don’t have enough to do already. Yeah. And that and that’s what we can experience sometimes in relationship.

Justin:

So there’s there’s two perspectives I’d love to get your thoughts on.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Okay, so I

Mark:

did say you could ask me anything, didn’t I?

Justin:

When you did say that, I recall hearing that. Um, from your perspective, so two polar opposites is I’m someone who avoids conflict, I am what we call codependent. Right in the relationship where I do my best to cover up for your mistakes and compensate for them, but I’m still being hurt by them over and over and over. A, that’s that’s point A. How do you encourage that person to uh embrace conflict in a way that’s healthy and pushes the rest of the relationship forward. So that’s A. B is I’m the other person. I’m can I have no problem with conflict. Hi I do conflict every day. I’m pro I’m great at conflict. Right, and not not realizing I’m actually pushing over, bowling over everyone around me and I don’t know how to do comp conflict correctly ’cause what I think is good con proper way to do conflict is just shoving everything out of my way. Does that make sense? And I I’m I’m I’ll tell anyone what I think any time and I have no problem with that and not recognizing that every relationship is either gone because they got pushed out or they’re the codependents around you who are propping you up and it’s not a healthy relationship but you feel perfectly healthy because y your your tree’s growing nice and strong, you know what I mean? At the expense, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I’d love to hear ’cause I know you’ve had these conversations in counseling with the marital counseling, whatever where you’ve had to connect you c speak to each of those versions to say here’s what you need to do or you know how you see it right like how do you see it mark how do I how do you encourage A and B

Mark:

There’s two things, there’s a couple, there’s a bunch of things coming to my mind. I bet.

Justin:

Yeah, I see them wheels. Let’s start a new episode.

Mark:

Um I like the aspect of truth and mercy. Okay? And Jimmy Evans talks about this, you know. He’s a he’s a he’s a guy I know, you know, listen to Marriage Marriage Today. Um Marriage on the Rocky He’s Marriage on the Rocks guy, yeah. Um Truth, let’s see Truth is a cheerleader without a team. All rah rah rah nah. No. Mercy is a cheerleader without a team. And truth is operation without anesthesia. You follow me? To the point we can be so truthful. You did this, you did that, you did that. That’s how I see it. But yeah, that may be the truth that I have, but that doesn’t extend mercy to you. You follow me? That you didn’t intend some of the things that happened. You follow me? And I so I like, and I and I think part of that When we go back to the initial analogy of the codependent, is the the ability to recognize what is true. Okay, am I just choosing to extend mercy all the stinking time? You follow me? Because the truth is you’re just mean to me You know, if I’m willing to address that, you’re just mean. And you’re if and we’re looking at a continuum, okay, and this is how I would work with someone. I would draw a continuum. And on one end, I would put aggressive. And on the other end, I’d put passive. And in the middle between two lines, I would put assertive. You follow me? Because our tendency is to live on one end of that spectrum or the other. You know, it’s very m the ability to assert Is my ability to recognize that there is a boundary around my life. Okay? So if someone is just continually being aggressive, I can basically go to that side, that boundary, and say, okay, this is where, this is where the line is You’re being aggressive and I’m gonna pull back. I’m not gonna deal with that. Okay, when you want to talk to me in a manner that is respectful, then then we can have inner we can have this you know discussion But if you’re just gonna come at me with aggression, I’m gonna pull back, I’m gonna draw a line here, and we’re not having this discussion anymore. You follow me? I don’t have to be mean. I don’t have to I don’t have to meet aggression with aggression. I can be assertive in such a way that says, no, I’m not you’re not treating me this way anymore. And if this and if this continues, I am leaving. And I’m not saying that in a, you know, pack my bags, I’m out the door, you know. uh I I think more of a um dramatic style relationship. You all you know where we where we just throw that out there. But basically we’re we’re establishing a boundary, a line that says, okay, this is where I start, this is where you stop, and this is where I start. And I think that’s helpful for codependency. But that individual has to learn how to basically assert Because they’ve spent so much time on the passive end of the scenario for them to even assert which is middle, which is healthy from my perspective. Okay, they have to be from their perspective, they have to be mean.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

That’s mean spirited. That’s mean hard. That’s something they’ve never really developed. is the the ability to recognize their own anger and say, okay, yeah, that’s unacceptable. That’s too far.

Justin:

It’s interesting because you know in in regards to codependency, I mean that’s that’s a term I’ve pulled, you know, through Celibary Covery and we talk a lot about that and it’s often the other end of the stick of an addict, right? Is it is the codependency Um it you know so but one thing we’ve noticed uh and it’s not just us, I mean it’s a common understanding, is that as someone works through the issue of codependency of learning how to move on that continuum towards assertiveness. They very often blow past the line.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s a very common beginning first stage is to go, you know what? I’m done and just just wham! I’m now mean and this is what you get of me and the sense of freedom that they feel. from that. Like, you see it over and over that pattern of going like, Wow, this is great. I did it. I made it and you’re like, Well, you’re on your way

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Because now now, you know, y that’s not the end goal either. It’s Now I’m like him.

Mark:

Now I’m the bully.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like, and I think there’s a freedom in a an amazing part of getting to that side of like Going, oh wow, I don’t have to be that.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And that’s important.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

But at the same time, I think that’s part of the continuum of learning as a from as a codebend is to recognize you’re probably going you don’t know what it sort of looks like. If you did, you’d be better at it, right? So there’s a chance. Maybe you’ll put an anemic effort at it and still be codependent and you’re like it doesn’t work. Or you’re going, No, I’m gonna give it a real effort and you just blow past the line and now you’re mean that but you s now see the value in it. So I would encourage like You gotta push, you gotta do your best, but recognize that maybe the first attempts at learning how to be assertive will be mean.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

You know, and you might feel like it’s mean, but you also might get a sense of like Like, ooh, that feels good. I mean, I like being on this side of the equation, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

And you you can and and at the same time, I think, you know, we we have that tendency, you know, when we experience something new, it’s kind of like a drunk trying to run. ride a horse. You know, we do end up shifting from one side to the other, and it’s very hard to shift to just the middle. And ride straight ahead.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, not to, you know, not using an analogy of addiction, but still it is that dynamic that we might at times, and I think, you know If we talk about passive-aggressive relationship, that’s exactly what that is. It’s the drunk trying to ride the horse.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

You follow me, versus that ability to learn how to assert for myself and establish healthy boundaries.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That is able to address conflict. in a way that’s healthy and saying, this is what I saw. Help me understand. This is what I experienced. Because at that point we are able to ext share our truth, what we experienced, what I saw, what I heard, in such a way that is extending mercy to you. Because there is a benefit of the doubt, if you will, that you weren’t necessarily meaning to be menacing or diabolical.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, so often our tendency can be, well, you just meant to do that. You were you were trying I know what you want you what you were doing. No, you don’t know. You may think And that’s okay. But at the same time, that mercy is the part that allows you to say, oh, thanks for sharing that. That’s not necessarily what I meant. I can understand, you know, what you heard. And I’m honestly sorry that you heard it that way.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Because that’s not what I intended, but that’s not an excuse on my part. I’m willing to acknowledge that that’s what was conveyed as far as you heard it.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s so valuable to be able to say that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That sounds like a healthy individual.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

So let’s get back to the unhealthy individual Did I div

Mark:

did I divert from the question?

Justin:

No, no, no. I’m saying you went right to the ideal, which is amazing. Like that’s that’s what the listener should be saying. I want to get there. But what’s let’s go back to I’m not there. I’m the worst version of so we’re t we’re talking about codependence. I think you could go on for m years about that. But But um the other I think I would encourage is because you don’t know what assertiveness looks like, get people in your life who do and let them hold you accountable.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Like whether it’s a counselor, you’re in Mark’s office and you say, Well, do you think that was a sort of a do you think that was just mean, you know, like or if uh uh you know CR we call it accountability partners, sponsor, whatever. Cause to think that you can figure it out on your own, well did you so far? No. Alright, well let’s get some help. Uh all right, so we talked about it.

Mark:

And I think I think to as as a step, you know, and I I think about it from the terms of my office sometimes, you know, it is that point of Where do I r think I am on that continuum?

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Put an X.

Justin:

Step one is denial, right? Right. Figuring out. Yeah, that’s right.

Mark:

Yeah, I I have to be able to recognize where I am on this continuum. Am I so passive that I’m enmeshed in other people’s problems or my problems or, you know, that kind of thing? Or am I able to recognize what’s your problem and what’s my problem? you know or are you just my problem and that’s on the aggressive end that’s that kind of thing so be able to identify that

Justin:

how often when you ask that question self-assessment questions You know, I have a perception of what my answer would be to this, but how often are we in denial when we answer? Like here’s the continuum, you know, I have my two hands held up, left and right, right? And the right is the extreme of mean and and you know whatever. The left is the extreme of codependence and enmeshment and uh your problems are my problems. How often do we say, no, I’m actually way over here. I’m way over. Like we admit that or is it or do we often bring ourselves very close to the middle in ourselves? I’m curious.

Mark:

I have found when we talk with people about their patterns and cycles and tendencies. It’s and then I draw the continuum. It’s very easy for them to see. Oh wow. I’m all the way over by that arrow you just made. made under passive. You know, they’ll put they’re willing to put their X there.

Justin:

So you give ’em the full context before asking for their assessment.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

That makes a lot of sense.

Mark:

We talk about it in a sense of patterns and cycles. You know, it’s like, okay. Yeah, you know, he should know or she should know what I’m thinking. It’s like, hmm, how should how would they know that? Help me understand that better Well, you know, I did this. They should have known. No, I don’t think I don’t think that’s fair. You know, help me understand that. Why how could they know if you just did this?

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, is that is that conveying that full sense of what you need? Or are they supposed to interpret that based on that snippet, that text you sent, that five-word text? Are they supposed to, you know, elicit the feelings that you felt in that from a text message? You know, that’s kind of Because then we can say, well, you know what? There was some stuff missing there. There was a lot of thought that wasn’t in that. That I felt, but it I can understand how it wasn’t conveyed.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s that’s good. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.