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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

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Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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conversations so in that whole process did I apologize did did that answer your

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question in the in the context of identifying that codependency and i'

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give somebody like baby steps for that I think so I think um well just summarize

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it what would be the best baby step you'd give someone who's real really kind of on that far

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Spectrum what's what are some baby steps they could do to say to work on

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that well I think there is something to be said for talking with

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someone what do you what do you or or helping being able to

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identify where I see myself okay so safe and objective third party kind of okay

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yes to be able to say okay this is what I'm thinking and it and it in some ways

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I I like the you know an objective you know if you have a healthy

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relationship yes being able to ask your your spouse your partner you know hey is

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if I'm thinking about this you know in this context is this kind of where I I

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come from for the most part as you see it you know if that's healthy and it's able to be objective I think that's a

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great place to start you know am I being aggressive do I tend to be to or do I you know float back and forth you know

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because but at the same time if I'm already in a codependent relationship

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that's not necessarily a safe place to do that right that's that's that's the cave if and your girlfriend who always

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is willing to pile on with you say well you just need to leave that jerk you know that yes that might not be the

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right safe objective third party either if if they're main objective in their in your

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life is to just prop you up yeah prop you up or or you be more like me yeah

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because that's not always a healthy thing either if I'm just surrounding my people myself with people like me I'm

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going to end up more like them yes you you follow me show me who your friends are and I'll show you who you become in

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five years that kind of thing but I think it because I think in you know areas where we can have healthy

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relationship you know good positive social interactions I I'm going to say you know you know certain Church

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Dynamics you know F3 you know you know for myself as a guy these are these are

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guys that I can talk with about where I'm at I can talk with you about where I'm at I can you know CR I can go there

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you know and I can have interaction in a way that isn't necessarily trying to fix me but yet that it's just helping me

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identify where I am and avoid the denial recognize the denial yeah yeah yeah

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that's that's great and if you're not even sure where to turn and it's like you're just like you know when you rock

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bottom right you're in a situation where you just I'm desperate for help well there's certainly resources I mean

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counseling highly recommend counseling get a counselor but if you can't afford that or if that's not something that you can find support for in your environment

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I mean I can hardly recommend something like cele recovery where you can walk through the door start communicating

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about this stuff start learning some tools start developing relationships that can eventually be that safe you

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know third party that's objective or whatever but yeah and and there again

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that's a free resource you know and yet coming back to that conflict I'm going

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to have to overcome some natural resistance that I have yeah to that

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change you know I'm going to have to recognize that yeah okay this is this is going to take you know me coming against

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myself to a certain degree to promote change and there's going to be a certain

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resistance to my you know homeostasis if you will that I've developed that I'm

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comfortable here you know we have to overcome that in such a way and be able to recognize our change on our part

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isn't necessarily always going to be accepted by people around us yeah you know yeah in accepting that in yourself

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that there's going to have to be some change that I need to make that might change some of the relational aspects of

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you know just the relationship my current relationships may have to change yeah I may have to find new

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relationships that help support the direction I desire to head because if

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I'm not willing to enter into conflict and and I'm then I'm then I'm pulling back yeah and I'm not actually growing

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or changing I'm just maintaining mhm or which in in effect pulling back

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yeah so that's good um we talked about that end of the spectrum the kind of the

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codependence um I want to spend a little time on the other end because in my

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estimation um they're both very problematic right in fact in Alcoholics

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Anonymous and celebrate covery we say a codependent is as as sick as the addict

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right because their relationship is equally you know it's it's hard to explain basically they're in a sick

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State just as much as the ad addict is okay so I don't want to say one is worse than the other but I but I do want to

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say that the power Dynamic with somebody who's kind of you

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know pushes people over kind of that bull right the bull in the china shop um

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the power Dynamic makes them a little more dangerous right I want to say and so I think it'd be good to spend some

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time on on that I think the biggest risk factor or or problem factor

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in in that side of the spectrum is is denial is sure well everything's great to me so I don't know what the problem

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is yeah does that make sense yeah do you feel like in those you know those

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situations where you're counseling or whatever that that's a pretty common thing where it's just a complete

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blindness and like well things are fine on my end I don't know what the problem is and it's clear in this this situation

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where we're both talking and this person's all upset and hot and bothered and I'm totally chill we all know where

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the problem is MH right yeah it's clearly not me I'm fine I'm cool I'm chill I'm happy you know what I mean

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what are your thoughts on baby steps there or even I mean yeah just I love

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this and I guess I guess I'm going to clarify a little bit when I think of the other end of the spectrum um I'm going

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to tend to think of someone who is when you say power differential I'm going to tend to think of someone who tends to be

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aggressive M yeah okay I'm GNA that's how I'm going to address that well that's how they maintain their

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everything's perfectly fine sure right no and I and I and what you'll hear from

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the the passive if they're able in a safe setting is yeah but that's not who

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you are you follow me if they feel safe enough they're going to be able to say

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yeah but that's not who you normally are this calm demeanor that you you're you're you know exuding or you know

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trying to have in here that's not who you are now if a p if a person's really

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on that codependent end they're not necessarily going to be able to say that that's going to take be afraid to say that exactly because it's not safe to

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say that because I will be punished if I say anything that's wrong with you you

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follow me that's that's where it and I think we're setting up why this is such a problem you know I guess that's well

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here's here we give Clues to The Listener who maybe I mean I know I've

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struggled on this side of the dynamic I've also struggled on codependency with certain relationships and there's other relationships where I've been on that

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kind of power differential and and aggressive and um you know I've worked a

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lot on a lot of the stuff and maybe I still have both of those and that's not the point the point is there are times

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you couldn't have convinced me it was me right so I guess like I would love to know how we start cracking that shell

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for a listener right now listening who is that person maybe not all the time or

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not to every relationship but she's a few key relationships that they can go oh maybe

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that's me you know what I mean yeah yeah and I think um for me they're again if

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I'm working with that aggressive person I'll say in a in a in a setting in my office I'm going to I'm going to start

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identifying patterns and Cycles okay help me understand how relationships work work for you you

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follow me how how many close friends do you have I don't really have many close friends you know maybe maybe just you

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know the kids that I grew up with what's that relationship like well you know

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we're just friends we just hang out you know that kind of thing and I and I think we have to start by gaining that

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insight and such a way that says okay how do I conduct my relationships and am I willing to recognize that I have this

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um tendency to have very limited

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relationship and I BN and I burn through relationships pretty quickly I don't

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have too many friends and you know that kind of thing and I would there's a

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there's a um there's a thing I'll call it the thing a

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it's called like ego Mass okay so normally two people who enter into

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relationship have like ego Mass that's why healthier people marry healthier

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people more unhealthy people I'll say attract more unhealthy people because I

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tend to think about people being like me so I'm attracted to people who kind of

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are in the same Health realm that I am like ego Mass Mak sense like Bonnie and

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Clyde well it's it's more about the fact that yes you're attractive to me because

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we're like even in our unhealth just as much as we are in our health I just

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think about certain relationships that are very you know unhealthy individuals that are unhealthy relationship and it's

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like they're my ride or die partner and it's like this like Bonnie and Clyde

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mentality like we're in this together we're going to shoot everybody who comes to a you that's kind of you made me when that's

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like kind of the extreme side the Bonnie and glide Dynamic e Mass like eag Mass

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exactly and and here's here's the deal from my

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perspective both the aggressive person and the passive person struggle with a

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lack of identity from my perspective okay because what happens is you know the

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aggressive person doesn't necessarily know who they are they've just learned

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to be to be to use anger and aggression to get what they want from

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people okay the tendency is to over assert so I'm just aggressive so either

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I have people around me who can't stand up to me or the people that can soon

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fall away you follow me that's that's how I would begin to identify some of

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those patterns and Cycles based on relationships so if the people around me

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just have to say yes to me or else I get mad at them and they they're punished in

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some way or another either by my cold shoulder or by my physical abuse you

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follow me that's that's my way of making them say yes which isn't healthy or the

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I just don't have anybody in my uh realm of influence that can speak into my life

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you know in such a way that if I get if if they stand up to me I just distance

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myself from them because a bully can't stand someone else who stands up to them

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and usually that dist it's an inferiority at that point usually that distancing comes uh in parallel with

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vilifying right like you believe this person said this and look at them

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they're this this and this there's no way I you know I'll never take that from them because they're you know

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basically the because this this particular person that we're talking about whether it's me right in my

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dysfunction is is not willing to say that's I'm inferior and therefore I have

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to walk away from this person instead I will say I am Superior they are inferior

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and they have no right to to speak this to me or do this this egregious act

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right and they will they will be banished from my life because exactly

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yeah so I'm you're speaking from a healthy counseling terms I'm just trying to put

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it in flip that into terms of someone who's unhealthy what that might look like sure that makes sense yeah no that

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makes sense and I think I think we can if I may um we talked about love styles

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did we not and I think that will come back into you know that controller victimized you know

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love style do I have to use anger you know to to motivate people because

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number one anger is either going to motivate people to to say yes to do what

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I want them to do or it will distance people from me that I don't want interacting in my life yeah that's what

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anger does I'm not saying anger isn't healthy don't get me wrong there anger is a healthy emotion MH but but when I'm

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using it from a control standpoint you know then it's unhealthy when I have to

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control other people so that would be that aggressive end or you know the victimized is the is the passive end

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that reminds me of the thinking versus feeling and concept of like our emotions are valid but not truth sure right so

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not always ACC anger is always valid sure always yes valid in the sense that

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it's it's a real thing that occurs in me for real yes like it's not something that I am imagining the anger is real

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it's a valid thing inside of me but it doesn't represent truth it's not a

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representative of what the actual reality is yes that's that's I guess where I'm that's where I'm struggling

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with valid you know I think what I'm try real I'm not wrong because I feel anger

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I'm not wrong because I feel sadness depression whatever the emotions are

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right doesn't make me wrong because emotions aren't necessarily something we can control agreed right agreed that's

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what I mean by valid it doesn't you don't have to invalidate it and say well

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because I think that's where you get into codependence well my my you know anger at this person isn't valid because

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he's a good person he really tries and it's like no feelings are valid anger is valid right how you respond to that

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anger is you know that's that's what we're talking I that's he made me think of saying anger is not wrong it's not

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wrong to be angry that's right what it quickly spirals into something wrong as

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a controller but it also quickly spirals into something wrong as a victim yes

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right and I think when I heard valid I'm hearing in my mind that other person that says you make me

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angry you follow me yeah and so that's not accurate correct that's that's a

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form of accurate but if I'm thinking that you make that and that's valid then

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you know that's that's where I was wrestling with that terminology that's yeah so the terminology could be very uh

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so I would say anger is a real emotion yeah and yes we can experience it at

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times and it's not wrong but yet what we do with that anger you know is important

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I guess my thought too is as a controller who's cons consistently

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angry there's a valid reason you're angry sure right and you need to address

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the validity yes the source the root to get to the root of why you're angry and

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deal with that I agree there's something valid in that emotion sure there's a source and if we can identify let's

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throw the word valid well no I'm okay with it I appreciate the opportunity to wrestle through that exactly trying to

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clarify the meaning there that there's a reason you're experiencing this emotion

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right and I just didn't want valid being true right you know sometimes in a scientific you know if it's valid if

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it's you know valid hypothesis it becomes true you know but so that's

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where that's how I was seeing it from that perspective so moving on in that

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process yes emotions are real but they are not always accurate and if I am

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blaming other people for my emotion without I identifying the source of that

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anger which might very well be my insecurity okay then that's where we

18:09
need to start and being able to recognize that I might be trying to pump up or inflate my

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own Identity or insecurity boy up my

18:24
insecurity with my aggressive actions and it's not healthy and it's actually

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counter two because I don't have anybody in my life who is actually able to be

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a uh yeah in CR we'd use accountability I don't have people that I allow to hold

18:46
me accountable so I have developed this

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pattern over time of limited

18:56
relationship does that make sense does I think one of the most difficult so I

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think from the to the codependent one of the first pieces of advice would be get some accountabil get someone that can I

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think on this side of things it's a lot more difficult because your natural tendency is to say okay I'll do that and

19:16
then go no but this person's an idiot I can never find someone who's not an idiot you know what I mean and so

19:23
I I think for for me it one of the key aspects was to

19:30
learn to be accountable so in other

19:36
words I have to start doing the work to figure out why I'm angry and telling someone I think I got angry because of

19:43
this yeah and they might try and tell me what to do or they might be an idiot

19:49
right you know I'm I'm using that air quotes right cuz I I might feel that way

19:55
sure but towards that person right I might feel like there's no one who is qualified to speak to me in this thing

20:02
or whatever um I think one of the things I had to learn that accountability was

20:07
if I was only depending on someone strong enough to hold me back or or or grab me and shake me and say look what

20:13
you're doing and me going oh yeah you're right like because there was never going to be

20:19
that person in my life I you know I was like I just need someone strong enough just to do that or whatever it's like

20:24
that's not going to happen like because again our tendency to push those people away and it's just it's just not a

20:32
common sure thing to find right right um however learning to say whoever that is

20:39
on the other side of the the couch so to speak or the other side of the table I can be accountable to them I can confess

20:46
I can admit and work on that and I don't know if that's a baby St that's probably still pretty far down the line for

20:52
someone in this thing but being willing to say yeah maybe sometimes I get angry

20:59
maybe I get angry more than I should and maybe I use that anger as a tool mhm

21:05
that's that's a baby step and then you know where you go from there I don't know again no and I think I think it is

21:12
a process and I think um I don't want to necessarily make something that's so

21:17
complex seem as simple as you know one step because I think you know identifying that step for an individual

21:24
you know can be a complex thing and then what do I do next well sometimes that's going to depend on your circumstance you

21:31
know but I do think you know accountability and a continued influence

21:36
to that from a positive that becomes the the baby step and the next step you know

21:42
because then at that point you're able to start unpacking some of those issues

21:48
you follow me I'm able to recognize okay I learned this Behavior early on you

21:55
know and this was this is this is a pattern of my life that been developed and I think you know that's where you

22:01
know even the later steps if you will of you know making amends and you know

22:07
that's all part of that initial getting beyond the denial of I'm an angry person

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and I just use anger to motivate people all the time either away from me or to

22:20
do what I want them to do and is that really how I want to live the rest of my life you know and and granted some

22:27
people would say yeah mhm you better respect me mhm you know I and I think that's um well respect itself is so

22:36
misunderstood you know because you know so many people think well you know I turn 18 I turn 21 and now it's my turn

22:44
yeah you you know I deserve respect no I'm sorry I'm going to disagree with that every time because I think you know

22:50
and and I think it can be um a cultural thing to be able to say well you know

22:57
I'm this now now I deserve respect no you earn respect by the way you treat

23:02
people and how you conduct yourself in relationship because it's a it's not I don't want to make it light like a

23:08
currency but I think it's very similar to that I can't just demand respect from

23:15
someone and just because of who my parents are or you know where I the pro

23:22
my ZIP code none of that you know bequeaths respect on you but it's

23:30
it's the way you know it's the character from my perspective that you know builds

23:36
or creates respect allows respect to grow between

23:43
individuals that's that's another that's another topic for another time of course but I'm just if you're but if you're

23:49
expecting respect without having to prove the character side of it yes that

23:55
could be a symptom right oh yes very much so if very much so if respect is

24:00
expected no matter what right if you don't respect me I'm GNA right that's

24:05
not respect right I did this because you didn't respect me exactly yeah yeah yeah

24:12
it's yeah that's that's a Telltale sign of where I find myself in that Continuum

24:19
yeah yeah yeah it's difficult because again

24:25
on that perspective looking at those two two ends of the spectrum I think the one

24:30
side often is desperate and listening and searching and willing to hear now

24:36
they might not be willing to do the work because it represents you know messing with what's quote unquote working like I

24:43
don't want to make them mad they might not but on this side of spectrum it's just I feel like so much easier to or so

24:49
much more difficult for the for the them to be listening right yeah and uh again

24:56
that's why I think we have a unique position here to have this conversation of his symptoms because there might be

25:02
someone listening who has these Tendencies and I would also say you know we use the word spectrum right sure the

25:08
Spectrum you know there's there's there's all the way to the left and all the way to the right and you might not be all the way to the right on that

25:14
terrible version or whatever but you there might be some relationships that you ex you exhibit an aggressive nature

25:21
sure right and so again just the nature of this kind of conversation that we're

25:27
not accusing you cuz we don't know you right but you're able to kind of do some self assessment that is I think a very

25:35
important um part of working starting the process to work on these things if

25:40
you're on that side of the spectrum yeah because nobody's going to tell you this and you know it you're listening right

25:47
now you're like you know you know you're right Justin no one's going to tell me that yeah you know I don't have anybody

25:52
right the dares yeah yeah that dares and if they did I would you're right I'd think they're an idiot because I know

25:58
this person and if they did it I would think this about them I know this person I can't think of a single person well

26:04
maybe that person and it's like the president of the United States you know it's like okay all right you know but

26:10
not really but not really yeah yeah it's denial right but yeah yeah and I and I think I like what you're establishing in

26:18
that aspect of being able to recognize a need for growth and I think that in some

26:24
ways that brings us back to there's going to be conflict I'm going to exper erence some heat I'm going to be

26:31
uncomfortable in this process of change because there's going to be

26:37
resistance and I think you know that's I'm wondering sometimes if that

26:42
isn't the baby step of more so just to be able to recognize that this is going to be hard work I got to identify it I

26:49
got to recognize it but I also have to I I think kind of you know when I'm in my

26:55
my therapy mode that's you know one of my prerequisites you know is yeah if you want change

27:01
change is work yeah you know work in a in a in a in a therapeutic situation

27:07
that's my desire is to create a context for change you know and when and I think

27:14
we're most like God when we are creating or we are working to make opportunity or

27:21
space for change MH you follow me that's that's that is the baby step as far as

27:26
I'm concerned we have to be able to have those environments where we are making

27:33
opportunity for Change and those environments have to be safe yeah just like a therapeutic

27:40
setting yeah which again I think is one of the unique positions we have on on this podcast is this is as safe as it

27:47
gets because we don't know you we're not talking to you specifically but you're listening and maybe you know you're

27:53
doing that creating that context for change you're going yeah maybe that is me or whatever yeah I think that's kind

27:58
of a cool part of this uh which I enjoy um but yeah and also just thinking too

28:04
like yeah like you said baby step is just maybe doing asking those questions

28:10
that you would ask well are you happy with the way this works in your life yes

28:15
are you content that the rest of your life there never going to be anyone who can stand up to you and the ones that

28:21
are in your life you tend to you know control with anger like is that an acceptable way of life to you or do you

28:27
want more yeah do you want do you feel like you don't have any real relationships because you know there's

28:34
no one who can stand up to you and and you long for it like you long for a buddy you long for whatever but it's

28:41
just like impossible do you want that like do you want to see a different version of your

28:47
life cuz that I guess like you said that is the baby step is to say yeah maybe

28:53
maybe there is a version of my life that I long for that I just Ro off yeah

28:59
because it's it's unicorns and rainbows right right or it seems not necessarily

29:05
unicorns and rains it seems like it's briers and thickets you know it's work I

29:10
I I got some I got some brush hogging to do you know because I have these patterns that have grown up over 20 30

29:19
40 years that have kind of entrenched me yeah I'm I'm I'm in a I'm in a ditch and

29:25
I don't even realize it you know that kind of thing that's that's where I that's how I would identify patterns and

29:30
Cycles to a certain degree because they're just habits that had a purpose at one time but they've outgrown their

29:38
value they've all outgrown their healthiness they were once they once

29:43
provided safety but they're no longer healthy and I think that's where our

29:49
patterns and Cycles come from is those Hurts Habits and Hang-Ups if you will yeah you know because and we have to be

29:56
able to you know ultim timately the next step after you know creating a context for change is to challenge patterns and

30:03
cycles and that's that's about vulnerability and support yeah I have to be I have to learn to be vulnerable to

30:10
someone and then therefore at that point when I'm able to be vulnerable I'm a

30:15
support can be or help in a healthy relationship typically is reciprocated

30:21
with support this is something that I'm struggling with okay how can I help you MH you know you're willing to identify

30:28
this pattern and cycle in your life okay you're sharing that with me I struggle with an addiction

30:35
to fill in the blank and then it's at that point we're able to say okay have

30:40
you know what does support look like you know and I think there again we're

30:46
opening up an opportunity for conflict because I don't feel supported by that

30:51
so okay how do we have to come back what does support look like you know I think we can do this in our marital relationships or you know health

30:58
relationship as well it's like okay I tried that but at the same time that

31:03
didn't seem like it was support so help me understand right you know I'm hearing this need but help me understand how I

31:11
can support you yeah because evidently what I did you know in my own effort

31:17
wasn't didn't get conveyed as support right not for a lack of my

31:23
desire but a lack of my knowing what needed to be

31:29
yep so that real support is offered in exchange for that vulnerability and then

31:35
at that point we're able to challenge some of the patterns and cycles of time

31:40
yeah and then we're able to relearn what safety looks like because

31:46
safety that what that I grew up with isn't always healthy so and when I

31:51
challenge those patterns and Cycles then I'm able to relearn what health looks

31:56
like and then that helps create more opportunities for change yeah so like

32:02
when I see you know conflict as being a healthy thing and I can address it in a

32:09
way that is you know recognizing a need and you know that's reciprocal then

32:15
conflict becomes a positive thing conflict builds intimacy yeah but if I'm

32:21
in a relationship where you know conflict is either ignored or it becomes

32:26
reactive that's difficult the dress yeah I I so many thought one at a

32:34
time Justin one at a time but I'm good with either one well one thing I was thinking of too is like if the support

32:41
you're trying to get is from the person that marriage can often be a difficult

32:48
place to start with support when you're at the beginning stages of working

32:54
through those cycle those years of you know briers and and thick as you

33:00
described because it's basically saying like I need support for me being

33:06
irritated at you it's like well you shouldn't be irritated at me or you know

33:11
trying to be real gracious all right I want to listen and then you get triggered as the person trying to offer

33:16
support instead of supporting you're now fixing MH right and it's like or you become defensive right yeah one of the

33:23
two right and in the case of fixing it's like well I want to support but I just got an

33:29
anecdotal Quick Fix solutions for me which didn't feel like support it just felt like you trying to get me to stop

33:36
having the problem which it's not the same thing as support you know it's more about you at that point right mhm yeah

33:42
exactly because you need me to be better I need I need you to be better Mark so here's how I can you can be better you

33:48
know you just do this yeah yeah and but I do think the ultimate goal is that

33:54
those close relationships you can have support in them uh I do think it's

34:00
difficult in the beginning if especially in the context of marital issues and

34:05
counseling and all that like to start with getting support from that spouse is going to be very difficult because it's

34:12
going to be triggering right and so it's so important to have a counselor or have a safe context for that support

34:19
relationship and again I talk about cele recovery but you there's many ways to

34:25
accomplish this I'm just saying if you're your thought you're hearing this you're go okay I need I just need my

34:31
spouse to be supportive and you're holding that high standard to them when you're the one who's abusive in that

34:37
relationship or whatever it's like no no no no no that's just adding more abusive restrictions no doubt you know or vice

34:44
versa as the abusey you know or the the passive side to say I need you to be

34:50
supportive of my needs or whatever well they probably don't have the skills and abilities to do that yet you know what I

34:56
mean um I don't know I I think that's cuz even in a healthy relationship I

35:02
consider me and Megan's relationship extremely healthy good we've been married for 18 years you know love each

35:08
other more than we ever have and yet we recognize how difficult is to support each other sometimes CU our tendency

35:15
both of us and we know this and we joke about it we talk about it we bring you know we call it out in each other when

35:21
we do it is to fix is to go oh I hear your problem if you have you thought about this maybe you should just done

35:27
this just do this right just the word just comes in it's like yeah this is

35:33
this doesn't feel like support anymore this feels like you just needing me to be better so you feel better and because

35:39
uh there is a natural enmeshment in a marriage relationship where two become one sure and so if you're hurting I'm

35:46
hurting and that's a good part of marriage but it also means if you're hurting I want to apply Sav so that I

35:53
feel better I hear you you know I I don't know uh well I'd love to hear your thoughts on

35:59
all that in terms of well I'm I'm not disagreeing with anything you share about you and Megan in that process and

36:08
um for me I think what in order to address those Dynamics

36:16
I would I would recognize what I feel when you share that okay so do I have an

36:23
in inherent desire to fix well then that's something I need to challenge in

36:29
myself you follow me because I think that's how that's how systems change is

36:35
and and and part of that change is the ability to recognize what I contribute

36:41
so if I pull back on what I'm contributing I make the cycle smaller

36:48
and it simplifies does that make sense so if I am feel so there's things that we want

36:55
to recognize okay am I I feeling reactive am I starting to feel a

37:01
defensiveness come up in me then I can challenge that in my own why what what am I becoming defensive about is that a

37:08
trigger is that something you know that we've been through before and I don't want to go back there you follow me so I

37:15
think part of that is that ability to recognize what I'm contributing in response to what I'm

37:21
hearing so can I just listen MH so is

37:26
you know if I'm if I'm starting to automatically if I find my mind if I'm if I find my thoughts going towards well

37:33
then we just need to do this this and I'm no longer listening then that's my issue but if I can just stay present if

37:41
I can stay mindful in such a way that says okay I'm just going to listen Okay

37:46
and at the end of that conversation or at the end of that and and ideally you know that that process

37:55
shouldn't go on for a day M you follow me if I if I'm looking for if I'm being

38:01
vulnerable I'm going to be able to communicate what I need in a concise

38:08
conin sort of way you follow me it doesn't and it doesn't have to be you know a runon that goes on and on I'm

38:15
going to be able to okay so tell me what you need and I'm going to listen to that

38:22
and at that point if I'm starting to feel reactive okay I may need to do

38:28
something different but I'm not and then I can you can express that need to me and in such a way that says and I'm able

38:35
to hear it then it's okay to be able to say okay do you want me just to listen

38:40
or do you want some help in a fix you know is that I'm I'm I'm trying to support and I just need you to tell me

38:48
that because if you want help fixing something I'm your partner I'm in it with you but at the same time if you

38:56
just wanted to be able to to share something in such a way that I can help carry a burden lift a burden

39:03
lighten a burden then that's all you need MH and you know and I'm not going

39:09
to treat you as if you're wrong and you need to be fixed because nobody likes

39:14
being fixed right and I and I think so that's that's where that's how I would

39:19
walk you know through that dynamic in such a way that says okay what do where's that coming from is it is this

39:27
you know is that an identity insecurity on my part that says this person's

39:33
sharing with me because they want me to be able to fix it now they might just want relationship yeah they want they

39:41
might want to lighten the burden support support yeah and I think there again

39:47
that's where relationship comes into play because I'm able to say okay

39:52
there's nothing wrong with you mhm you're operating perfectly based on where you've come from and what you've

39:59
experienced so in that process granted we're human so at that point we're going

40:06
to have to recognize that yeah I'm going to see things differently but that doesn't make you wrong and me

40:13
right and I and I just and I guess that's that's my thing is I just I just feel for people who don't have other

40:20
people in their lives to be able to support them in healthy ways because I

40:26
think you know on the the other end of the unshed you know dynamic is you know where where people are there can also be

40:33
isolation you follow me to where on one end it's like I'm all about everybody and everybody's all about me but on the

40:40
other end it's just I'm I'm a rock I'm an island you know and a rock doesn't

40:46
feel any pain and our Island never cries or Island doesn't feel you know the Simon and Garfunkle stuff from way back

40:52
but you know it's like no that's not truth you know because there's a loneliness that goes there and I think

40:58
that can be equated to the aggressive side as well you know because I just live in this isolated world where people

41:06
have to say yes to me and I don't and I so I guess I just feel for people and I want to recognize that conflict is often

41:15
times a healthy thing where growth is concerned and yeah I want to encourage

41:22
people because at that point where I'm able to enter into conflict and able to

41:27
be authentic and we're able to learn to trust one another we're going to build intimacy and that doesn't matter whether

41:34
it's you and Megan it doesn't matter whether it's you know me and my buddy you know that kind of thing that process

41:42
and I and I think that's when conflict can become a healthy thing that doesn't

41:48
need to be avoided but that's how I see

41:56
it I realize you know my experience may not be everybody's experience but that's what I guess it tends to be a passion of

42:03
mine where that's concerned that conflict doesn't have to be a bad thing

42:09
well just going back to the beginning with the book quote again I

42:14
think I like that perspective that conflict isn't necess it's not something

42:20
we should seek out or desire in a relationship it's something we should recognize is a natural by product of a

42:28
healthy relationship yep it is a machine working producing heat yep and that heat

42:35
has to be dealt with for the machine to continue to work as well as it did like you yes it is a byproduct of a well

42:43
working machine but it's also a byproduct that we need to address and and work through to keep the machine

42:49
working well right yes and so I think if you you know if your desire is no

42:55
conflict then what you're truly Desiring is no relationship yeah because that's the that vacuum that's on a rock on a

43:03
hill like you said in you know or yeah our authenticity yeah right uh yeah yeah

43:10
so I think I think just an important distinction if you're Desiring conflict

43:15
and you're like ah conflict is a part of life and you might be the aggressor you

43:20
might you know you might need to chill out on on conflict but also recognizing that there's there's always going to be

43:28
conflict in learning how to address it and deal with it yeah in a healthy manner is a crucial piece to having a

43:35
healthy life sure to being a vegetable in the Sun or in the shade that's

43:40
producing and healthy and happy and yeah and I think it's interesting because we you know even in the analogy used of the

43:46
motor you know we have I think conflict when it's done

43:53
well has ways of or other systems that help us dissipate the heat you

44:00
follow me an engine has a radiator it has an exhaust that it directs that heat

44:06
in a in a in a in a in a safe manner you know and yet there's also this radiator

44:12
that's taking in fresh air all the time to just run through that water you know

44:17
that cooling system you know so I think it is a you know a healthy system has

44:22
ways of dealing with that heat and dissipating it in such a way that no one

44:28
has to be harmed by it it's that's so good uh it makes me

44:33
think of the inventor of the the the combustion engine right they didn't start with a radiator oh sure in oil no

44:41
I hear you they created it ran it got hot it blew up and they said oh we need to do something about this heat right

44:47
and and it was a process of figuring out to to where now it the combustion engine

44:53
is well figured out right yeah and um the ra radiators the water all those

44:58
things like um the systems yeah and I think you might be in a place where you

45:04
have an engine that overheats a lot and you don't know that you need a radiator but I will say that relationships are

45:11
also a well figured out machine right sure there are books there are resources

45:16
there are counselors there are churches there are there are places to go to learn you know what's important in a

45:22
relationship well you need a radiator you know and let's let's say the radiator is you said bring it in fresh

45:28
air well as a Believer is reading God's word and listening to the the Holy Spirit speaking to me is breathing life

45:35
into me right or an outlet right you need an outlet for the heat so you exhaust system well that might be

45:42
working out yeah that might be F3 you know community of other um believer you

45:48
know brothers and working out together or whatever uh it might be counseling as

45:53
an outlet for that Steam and that heat right like but tools yeah recognizing

45:58
that those pieces are crucial parts to this I think is very important sure yeah

46:05
to to a machine that's working well agreed that's how I see it right that's

46:10
how I see it thanks for sharing thank you that was good now let's fight about

46:15
it I mean [Music]

46:24
conflict hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it

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