Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

So in that whole process, did I I apologize, did did that answer your question in the in the context of identifying that codependency and how I’d give somebody like baby steps for that?

Justin:

I think so. I think um well just summarize it what would be the best baby step you’d give somebody someone who’s real, really kind of on that far spectrum, what’s what are some baby steps they could do to say to work on it. Hmm.

Mark:

Well, I think there is something to be said for talking with someone. What do you what do you or or help being able to identify where I see myself.

Justin:

So an obje safe and objective third party kind of

Mark:

yes to be able to say okay this is what I’m thinking and it and it in some ways I I’d like the you know an objective You know, if you have a healthy relationship, yes. Being able to ask your your spouse, your partner, you know, hey, is if I’m thinking about this. you know in this context is this kind of where I I come from for the most part as you see it you know if that’s healthy and it’s able to be objective I think that’s a great place to start You know, am I being aggressive? Do I tend to be to or do I, you know, float back and forth? You know, because but at the same time If I’m already in a codependent relationship, that’s not necessarily a safe place to be.

Justin:

Right, right.

Mark:

That’s that’s that’s the caveat issue.

Justin:

And your girlfriend who always is willing to pile on with you. say, well you just need to leave that jerk. You know, that

Mark:

yes

Justin:

that might not be the right up safe objective third party either if if they’re main objective in their in your life is to just prop you up.

Mark:

Yeah. Prop you up or or you be more like me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause that’s not always a healthy thing either. If I’m just surrounding my people myself with people like me I’m gonna end up more like them.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You you follow me, show me who your friends are, and I’ll show you who you become in five years. That kind of thing. But I think it does I think in, you know, areas where we can have healthy relationship, you know, good positive social interactions. I’m and I’m gonna say, you know, you know, certain church dynamics, you know F3, you know, you know, for myself as a guy, these are these are guys that I can talk with about where I’m at. I can talk with you about where I’m at. I can tell, you know, CR. I can go there, you know, and I can have interaction in a way that isn’t necessarily trying to fix me, but yet that it’s just helping me identify where I am and avoid the denial, recognize the denial.

Justin:

Yeah Yeah, yeah, that’s that’s great. And if you’re not even sure where to turn in it ‘s like you’re just Like, you know, when you get rock bottom, right? You’re in this situation where you just I’m desperate for help. Well, there’s certainly resources. I mean counseling, highly recommend counseling. counselor but if you can’t afford that or if that’s not something that you can find support for in your environment I mean I can heartily recommend something like Celebrate Recovery where sure you can walk through the door start communicating about this stuff, start learning some tools, start developing relationships that can eventually be that safe, you know, third party that’s objective or whatever. Yeah. And

Mark:

and there again, that’s a free resource, you know. Yeah. And yeah, uh coming back to that conflict, I’m gonna have to overcome some natural resistance that I have.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

to that change. You know, I’m gonna have to recognize that, yeah, okay, this is this is gonna take, you know, me coming against myself to a certain degree. to promote change. And there’s going to be a certain resistance to my, you know, homeostasis, if you will, that I’ve developed that I’m comfortable here. You know, we have to overcome that in such a way and be able to recognize our change on our part isn’t necessarily always going to be accepted by people around us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah. In accepting that in your yourself that uh there’s gonna have to be some change that I need to make that might change some of the relational aspects of you know just the relationship.

Mark:

Some of my current relationships may have to change.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. I may have to find new relationships that help support the direction I desire to head. Because if I’m not willing to enter into conflict and and I’m then I’m then I’m pulling back. And I’m not actually growing or changing. I’m just maintaining. Or which in effect pulling back.

Justin:

Yeah. So that’s good. We talked about that end of the spectrum, the kind of the codependence. I want to spend a little time on the other end because in my estimation Um, they’re both very problematic, right? In in fact, in Alcoholics Anonymous and Celebrate Recovery, we say a codependent is as as sick as the addict, right? Because their relationship is equally you know it’s it’s hard to explain but basically they’re in a sixth state just as much as the addict addict is okay so I I don’t want to say one is worse than the other but I but I do want to say that power dynamic with somebody who’s kind of you know pushes people over kind of that bull right the bull in the giant shop

Um the power dynamic makes them a little more dangerous, right? And so I think it’d be good to spend some time on on that. And I think the biggest risk factor or or problem factor in in that side of the spectrum is d is denial is

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Well everything’s great to me, so I don’t know what the problem is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Do you feel like in those, you know, in those situations where you’re counseling or whatever that that’s a pretty common thing where it’s just a complete blindness and like, well things are fine on my end. I don’t know what the problem is And it’s clear in this this situation where we’re both talking and this person’s all upset and hot and bothered and I’m totally chill, we all know where the problem is. Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s clearly not me. I’m fine. I’m cool. I’m chill. I’m happy. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What are your thoughts on baby steps there or even I mean Yeah, I just I’d love

Mark:

to And I guess I guess I’m gonna clarify a little bit when I think of the other end of the spectrum. Um I’m gonna tend to think of someone who is when you say power differential, I’m gonna tend to think of someone who tends to be aggressive. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay, I’m gonna that’s how I’m gonna address that.

Justin:

That’s how they maintain their everything’s perfectly fine.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

No, and I and I and what you’ll hear from the the passive if they’re able in a safe setting is yeah but that’s not who you are Hmm. You follow me? If they feel safe enough, they’re gonna be able to say, yeah, but that’s not who you normally are. This calm demeanor that you you’re you’re you know exuding or you know trying to have in here that’s not who you are. Now if a pa if a person’s really on that codependent end they’re not necessarily going to be able to say that. That’s going to take me a time. Exactly, because it’s not safe to say that because I will be punished if I say anything that’s wrong with you. You follow me? That’s that’s where it com and

Justin:

I think we’re setting up why this is such a problem. You know, so I guess that’s

Mark:

Well here’s here.

Justin:

I’ve also struggled on codependency with certain relationships and there’s other relationships where I’ve been on that kind of power differential. and and aggressive. And um you know, I’ve worked a lot on a lot of the stuff and maybe I still have both of those and that’s not the point. The point is there are times y you couldn’t have convinced me it was me. Right. So I guess like I would love to know how we start cracking that shell for a listener right now listening who is that person maybe not all the time or not to every relationship but She’s a few key relationships that they can go, Oh, maybe that’s me, you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, and I think um for me there again if I’m working with that aggressive person I’ll say in a in a in a setting in my office. I’m gonna start identifying patterns and cycles. Okay? Help me understand how relationships work work for you. You follow me? How many close friends do you have? Well I don’t really have many close friends. You know maybe maybe just you know the kids that I grew up with. What’s that relationship like Well, you know, we’re just friends. We just hang out, you know, that kind of thing. And I and I think we have to start by gaining that insight in such a way that says, okay, how do I conduct my relationships and am I willing to recognize that I have this tendency to have very limited relationship and I burn and I burn through relationships pretty quickly I don’t have too many friends and, you know, that kind of thing. And I would, there’s a, there’s a um There’s a thing, I’ll call it a thing, a premise. It’s called like ego mass. Okay, so normally two people who enter into a relationship have like ego mass That’s why healthier people marry healthier people. More unhealthy people, I’ll say, attract more unhealthy people. Because I tend to think about people being like me. So I’m attracted to people who kind of are in the same health realm that I am, like Ego Mass. Make sense?

Justin:

Make Bonnie incline

Mark:

Well, it it’s it’s more about the fact that yes, you’re attractive to me because we’re like even in our unhealth just as much as we are in our health.

Justin:

I just think about certain relationships that are very, you know, unhealthy individuals that are an unhealthy relationship. And it’s like, they’re my ride or die partner. And it’s like this, this like. W Bonnie and Clyde mentality like we’re in this together, we’re gonna shoot everybody who comes to us, you know, like this kind of thing. Uh you maybe think of that when you’re understanding that’s like kind of the extreme side of it. The Bonnie and Clyde dynamic Sure. That’s Eagle Mass.

Mark:

Like Eagle Mass. Exactly. And and here’s here’s the deal from my perspective. Both the aggressive person and the passive person struggle with a lack of identity From my perspective. Okay? Because what happens is, you know, the aggressive person doesn’t necessarily know who they are. They’ve just learned to be to be to use anger and aggression to get what they want from people. Okay? The tendency is to over -assert. So I’m just aggressive. So either I have people around me who can’t stand up to me or the people that can soon fall away. You follow me? That’s how I would begin to identify some of those patterns and cycles based on relationships. So if the people around me just have to say yes to me or else I get mad at them and they they’re punished. in some way or another, either by my cold shoulder or by my physical abuse. You follow me? That’s that’s my way of making them say yes. Which isn’t healthy. Or that I just don’t have anybody in my uh realm of influence that can speak into my life. You know, in such a way that if I get if if they stand up to me, I just distance myself from them because a bully can’t stand someone else who stands up to them

Justin:

And usually that distancing

Mark:

It’s an inferiority at that point.

Justin:

Usually that distancing comes uh p in parallel with vilifying, right? Like, can you believe this person said this? And look at them. They’re this and this and this. There’s no way I, you know, I’ll never take that from them because they’re, you know, basically though th ’cause this this particular person that we’re talking about, whether it’s me, right, in my dysfunction is is not willing to say that’s I’m inferior and therefore I have to walk away from this person. Instead I will say, I am superior, they are inferior, and they have no right to to speak this to me or d do this this egregious act, right? And they will they will be banished from my life. Because

Mark:

exactly.

Justin:

Yeah. So I’m uh you’re speaking from a healthy counseling terms. I’m just trying to put it and flip that into terms of someone who’s unhealthy with that might look like.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That makes sense.

Mark:

Yeah. No, that makes sense. And I think I think we can, if I may, um we talked about love styles, did we not? And I think that will come back into the you know that controller victimized you know love style do I have to use anger you know to to motivate people Because number one, anger is either going to motivate people to say yes, to do what I want them to do, or it will distance people from me that I don’t want interacting in my life. Yeah, that’s what anger does. I’m not saying anger isn’t healthy, don’t get me wrong there. Anger is a healthy emotion, but when I’m using it from a control standpoint, you know, then it’s unhealthy when I have to control other people. So that would be that aggressive end, or you know, the victimized is the is the passive end.

Justin:

That reminds me of the thinking versus feeling and concept of like our emotions are valid but not truth.

Mark:

Sure. Right?

Justin:

So anger is always valid.

Mark:

Sure. Always yes.

Justin:

Valid in the sense that it’s a real thing that occurs in me for real.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Like it’s not something that I am imagining. The anger is real. It’s a valid thing inside of me. But it doesn’t represent truth. It’s not a a representative of what the actual reality is.

Mark:

Yes. That’s that’s why I guess where I that’s where I’m struggling with valid. You know, I think it’s real.

Justin:

I’m not wrong because I feel anger. I’m not wrong because I feel sadness. Depression, whatever the emotions are, doesn’t make me wrong because emotions aren’t necessarily something we can control.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

That’s what I mean by valid. It doesn’t mat it you don’t invalidate it and say, well, because I think that’s where you get into codependence. Well my my You know, anger at this person isn’t valid because he’s a good person. He really tries and it’s like, no, all feelings are valid, anger’s valid.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Oh, how you respond to that anger. is you know that’s that’s what we’re talking about.

Mark:

I guess that’s that’s what

Justin:

you made me think of as saying anger’s not wrong. It’s not wrong to be angry.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

What it quickly spirals into something wrong as a controller, but it also quickly s spirals into something wrong as a victim.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

And I think when I heard valid I’m hearing in my mind that other person that says, you make me angry.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so That’s not accurate.

Justin:

Correct.

Mark:

That’s a n that’s a form of accurate but if I’m thinking that you make that and that’s valid, then you know, that’s that’s where I was wrestling with that terminology. That’s

Justin:

yeah. So the the terminology could be very uh

Mark:

so i would say anger is a real emotion

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

and yes we can experience it at times and it’s not wrong But yet what we do with that anger you know is important.

Justin:

I guess my thought too is as a controller who’s consistently angry, there’s a valid reason you’re angry

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And you need to address the validity.

Mark:

Yes. The source. The root.

Justin:

The get to the root of why you’re in

Mark:

I agree with that. Sure. There’s a source. Yeah. And if we can identify

Justin:

Let’s throw the word valid.

Mark:

Well no, I’m okay with it and I appreciate the opportunity to wrestle through that.

Justin:

Exactly. Trying to clarify. the meaning there that there’s a reason you’re experiencing this emotion.

Mark:

Right. And I just didn’t want valid being true.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, sometimes in a scientific you know, if it’s valid if it’s a you know valid hypothesis it becomes true. You know, but so that’s where that’s how I was seeing it from that perspective. So moving on in that process, yes, emotions are real, but they are not always accurate. And if I am blaming other people for my emotion without identifying the source of that anger, which might very well be my insecurity. Okay, then that’s where we need to start. And being able to recognize that I might be trying to pump up or inflate my own identity or insecurity, buoy up my insecurity with my aggressive actions. And it’s not healthy and it’s actually counter to because I don’t have anybody in my life who is actually able to be a Uh yeah, in CR we use accountability. I don’t have people that I allow to hold me accountable. So I have developed this pattern over time of limited relationship. Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does. I think one of the most difficult so I think from the to the codependent, one of the first pieces of advice would be get some accountability get someone that can I think on this side of things it’s a lot more difficult because your natural tendency is to say, Okay I’ll do that and then go, No, but this person’s an idiot. I can never find someone who’s not an idiot You know what I mean? And so I I think for m for me , it it w one of the key aspects was to learn to be accountable. So in other words, I have to start doing the work to figure out why I’m angry. telling someone, I think I got angry ’cause of this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And they might try and tell me what to do or they might be an idiot. Right? You know, I’m I’m using that air quotes, right? Yeah. Because I I might feel that way.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But

Mark:

towards that person.

Justin:

Right. I might feel like there’s no one who’s qualified to speak to me in this thing or whatever. Um, I think one of the things I had to look at learned that accountability was if I was only depending on someone strong enough to hold me back or or or grab me and shake me and say, Look what you’re doing and me going, Oh yeah, you’re right. Like

Mark:

I because

Justin:

there’s never gonna be that person in my life. I uh you know it’s like I just need someone strong enough to s to do that or whatever. And it’s like that’s not gonna happen. Like because our again our tendency is to push those people away and it’s just it’s just not a common sure thing to find, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um however learning to say whoever that it is on the other side of the the couch, so to speak, or the other side of the table, I can be accountable to them. I can confess, I can admit, mm-hmm and work on that. And I don’t know if that’s a baby step. That’s probably still pretty far down the line for someone in this thing. But being willing to say, yeah, maybe sometimes I get angry maybe I get angry more than I should. And maybe I use that anger as a tool. That’s that’s a baby step. And then you know where you go from there. I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah. Again

Justin:

,

Mark:

I think it is a process and I think Um, I don’t wanna necessarily make something that’s so complex seem as simple as, you know, one step because I think, you know, identifying that step for an individual, you know, can be a complex thing. And then what do I do next? Well, sometimes that’s going to depend on your circumstance. You know, but I do think, you know, accountability and a continued influence to that from a positive, that becomes the the baby step and the next step. You know, because then at that point, you’re able to start unpacking some of those issues. You follow me? I’m able to recognize, okay, I learned this behavior early on You know, and this is this is this is a pattern of my life that’s been developed. And I think, you know, that’s where, you know, the even the later steps, if you will, of, you know, making amends. And you know, that’s all part of that initial getting beyond the denial of I’m an angry person. And I just use anger to motivate people all the time. either away from me or to do what I want them to do. And is that really how I want to live the rest of my life? You know, and and granted, some people would say yeah. You better respect me. You know, I th and I think that’s um well respect itself is so misunderstood. You know, because you know, so many people think, well, you know, I turn eighteen, I turn twenty one, and now it’s my turn.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You you know, I deserve respect. No, I’m sorry. I’m gonna disagree with that every time. Because I think, you know, and and I think it can be um a cultural thing. To be able to say, well, you know, I’m this now. I deserve respect. No, you earn respect by the way you treat people and how you conduct yourself in relationship. Because it’s um it’s not I don’t want to make it light like a currency, but I think it’s very similar to that. I can’t just demand respect from someone. And just because of who my parents are or, you know, where I the pro my zip code, none of that. you know bequeaths respect upon you. But it’s it’s the way, you know, it’s the character from my perspective that you know builds or creates respect, allows respect to grow between individuals. That’s that’s another that’s another topic for another time of course, but I’m just

Justin:

if you’re but if you’re expecting respect without having to prove the character side of it, that could be a

Mark:

Oh yes, very much so.

Justin:

Very much so. If respect is expected no matter what.

Mark:

Right. If you don’t respect me, I’m gonna.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s not respect.

Justin:

Right. I did this because you didn’t respect me. Exactly. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s yeah.

Mark:

That’s that’s a telltale sign of where I find myself in that continuum.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s difficult because again on that perspective looking at those two ends of the spectrum, I think the one side often is desperate in listening and searching. and willing to hear, though they might not be willing to do the work because it represents, you know, messing with what’s quote unquote working. Like I don’t want to make them mad. They might not. But on this side of the spectrum, it’s just I feel like so much easier to or so much more difficult for the for the h them to be listening, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh again that’s why I think we have a unique position here to have this conversation of his symptoms because there might be someone listening who has these tendencies and I would also say, you know, we use the word spectral

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The spectrum you know, there’s there’s there’s all the way to the left and all the way to the right. And you might not be all the way to the right on that terrible version or whatever, but you know there might be some relationships that you ex you exhibit an aggressive nature.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And so, again, just the nature of this kind of conversation that w we’re not accusing you because we don’t know you.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

But you’re able to kind of do some self-assessment. That is, I think, a very important um part of working starting the process to work on these things if you’re on that side of the spectrum.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because nobody’s gonna tell you this. And you know it. You’re listening right now and you’re like, you know you know you’re right, Justin. No one’s gonna tell me that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

I don’t have anybody.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

The dares.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That dares and if they did I would you’re right, I’d think they’re an idiot because I know this person and If they did it, I would think this about them. I know this person. I can’t think of a single person. Well maybe that person. It’s like the President of the United States.

Mark:

But not really.

Justin:

But not really. Yeah. Yeah. It’s denial, right? But

Mark:

And I and I think uh I like what you’re establishing in that aspect of being able to recognize a need for growth. And I think that in some ways that brings us back to there’s going to be conflict. I’m going to experience some heat. I’m going to be uncomfortable. in this process of change because there’s gonna be resistance and I think you know that’s I’m wondering sometimes if that isn’t a baby step of more so just to be able to recognize that this is gonna be hard work. I gotta identify it. I gotta recognize it. But I also have to, I I think kind of, you know, when I’m in my my therapy mode, that’s you know one of my prerequisites, you know, is yeah, if you want change, changes work.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, work in a in a in a in a therapeutic situation, that’s my desire, is to create a context for change. You know, and when and I think we’re most like God when we are creating or we are working to make opportunity or space for change. You follow me? That’s that’s I that is the baby step as far as I’m concerned. We we have to be able to have those environments where we are making opportunity for change. And those environments have to be safe. Yeah. Just like a therapeutic setting.

Justin:

Yeah. Which again, I think, is one of the unique positions we have on. This podcast is this is as safe as it gets because we don’t know you. We’re not talking to you specifically, but you’re listening and maybe you know you’re doing that creating that context for changing going, yeah, maybe that is me or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think that’s kind of a cool part of this, uh, which I enjoy. Um but yeah and also just thinking too like Yeah, like you said, baby step is just go maybe doing asking those questions that you would ask. Well, are you happy with the way this works? works in your life.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Are you content that the rest of your life there never gonna be anyone who can stand up to you and the ones that are in your life you tend to you know, control with anger. Like is that an acceptable way of life to you? Or do you want more?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Do you want do you feel like you don’t have any real relationships?

Mark:

Mm

Justin:

because you know, there’s no one who can stand up to you and And you long for it. Like you long for a a buddy. You long for whatever, but it’s just like impossible. Do you want that? Like do you want to see a different version of your life? life. ‘Cause that I guess like you said, that is the baby step is to say, Yeah, maybe maybe there is a version of my l life that I long for that I just wrote off.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because it’s it’s unicorns and rainbows.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Or it seems not necessarily unicorns and range bows. It seems like it’s briars and thickets. You know, it’s work. I I I got some I got some brush hogging to do You know, because I have these patterns that have grown up over 20, 30, 40 years that have kind of entrenched me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m I’m I’m in a I’m in a ditch and I don’t even realize You know, that kind of thing. That’s that’s where I that’s how I would identify patterns and cycles to a certain degree, because they’re just habits that had a purpose at one time, but they’ve outgrown. their value. They’ve all outgrown their healthiness. They were once they once provided safety, but they’re no longer healthy. And I think that’s where our patterns and cycles come from is those hurts, habits, and hangups, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because and we have to be able to, you know, ultimately the next step after you know, creating a context for change is to challenge patterns and cycles. And that’s a that’s about vulnerability and support.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I have to be I have to learn to be vulnerable to someone. And then therefore at that point when I’m able to be vulnerable, I’m able support can be or help in a healthy relationship typically is reciprocated with support. This is something that I’m struggling with. Okay, how can I help you? You know, you’re willing to identify this pattern and cycle in your life. Okay, you’re sharing that with me. I struggle with an addiction. to ba-da-da-da, fill in the blank. And then it’s at that point we’re able to say, okay, have, you know, what does support look like? Mm-hmm. You know, and I think it there again, we’re opening up an opportunity for conflict because I don’t feel supported by that. So, okay, how do we have to come back? What does support look like? You know, I think we can do this in our marital relationships or, you know, a healthy relationship as well. It’s like, okay, I tried that, but at the same time, that didn’t seem like it was support. So help me understand, you know, I’m hearing this need, but help me understand how I can support you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because evidently what I did, you know, in my own effort wasn’t didn’t get conveyed as support.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Not for a lack of my desire, but a lack of my knowing what needed to be.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

So that real support is offered in exchange for that vulnerability. And then at that point we’re able to challenge some of the patterns and cycles of time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then we’re able to relearn what safety looks like because safety that what that I grew up with isn’t always healthy. So and when I challenge those patterns and cycles, then I’m able to relearn what health looks like. And then that helps create more opportunities for change.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So like when I see, you know, conflict as being a healthy thing and I can address it in a way that is, you know, recognizing a need. and you know that’s reciprocal, then conflict becomes a positive thing. Conflict builds intimacy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But if I’m in a relationship where, you know, conflict is either ignored or it becomes reactive That’s difficult to address.

Justin:

Yeah. I I so many thoughts.

Mark:

One at a time, Justin. One at a time. But I’m good with either one.

Justin:

Well one thing I was thinking of too is like if the the support you’re trying to get is from the person that i the uh marriage can often be a difficult place to start with support when you’re at the beginning stages of working through those cycles, those years of you know, briars and and thicket as you described, because it’s basically saying like I need support for me being irritated at you. It’s like, well ah, you shouldn’t be irritated at me or you know, trying to be real gracious, all right I want to listen and then you get triggered as the person trying to offer support instead of supporting you’re now fixing. Right? And it’s like

Mark:

or you become defensive.

Justin:

Right. Yeah. One of the two, right? And in the case of fixing, it’s like, well I want to support but I just got an anecdotal f quick fix solutions for me which didn’t feel like support, just felt like you trying to get me to stop having the problem. Which it’s not the same thing as support.

Mark:

It’s more about you at that point.

Justin:

Right. Yeah, exactly. You need me to be better. I need you to be better, Mark. So here’s how I can you can be better.

Mark:

You just do this.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And but I do think the ultimate goal is that those close relationships you can have support. in them. Um I do think it’s difficult in the beginning if especially like in the context of marital issues and counseling and all that, like to start with getting support from that spouse is gonna be very difficult because it’s gonna be triggering, right? And so it’s so important to have a counselor or have a a safe context for that support relationship. And again, I talk about celebrate recovery, but you There’s many ways to accomplish this. I’m just saying if you’re you’re thought you’re hearing this, you go, okay, I need I just need my spouse to be supportive and you’re holding that high standard to them when you’re the one who’s abusive in that relationship or whatever. It’s like no no no no no that’s just adding more abusive restrictions. You know, or vice versa as the you know, or the the passive side to say, I need you to be supportive of my needs or whatever. Well they probably don’t have the skills and abilities to do that yet. You know what I mean? Um I don’t know, I j I think that’s Cause even in a healthy relationship, I I consider me and Megan’s relationship extremely healthy.

Mark:

Good.

Justin:

We’ve been married for 18 years, you know, love each other more than we ever have, and yet we recognize how how difficult it is to support each other sometimes because our tendency, both of us, and we know this and we joke about it, we talk about it, we bring you know, we call it out in each other when we do it, is to fix is to go, Oh, I hear your problem. Mm. If you y have you thought about this? Maybe you should just just do this, right? Just. The word just comes in. It’s like Yeah, this is this doesn’t feel like support anymore. This feels like you just needing me to be better so you feel better. better in because w uh there is a natural enmeshment in a marriage relationship where two become one.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so if you’re hurting, I’m hurting and that’s a good part of marriage. But it also means If you’re hurting, I want to apply salve so that I feel better.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

You know? It’s uh I I don’t know. Uh well I’d love to hear your thoughts on all that in terms of

Mark:

Well, I’m not disagreeing with anything you share about you and Megan in that process. And um for me, I think what In order to address those dynamics, I would I would recognize what I feel when you share that. Okay, so do I have an inherent desire to fix? Well then that’s something I need to challenge in myself. You follow me? Yeah. Because I think that’s how that’s how systems change is and part of that change is the ability to recognize what I contribute. So if I pull back on what I’m contributing, I make the cycle smaller and it simplifies. Does that make sense? So if I am feel so there’s things that we want to recognize, okay, am I feeling reactive? Am I starting to feel a defensiveness come up in me? Then I can challenge that in my own. Why what am I becoming defensive about? Is that a trigger? Is that something you know that we’ve been through before? And I don’t want to go back there. You follow me? So I think part of that is that ability to recognize what I’m contributing in response to what I’m hearing. So can I just listen? So is you know if I’m if I’m starting to automatically if I find my mind if I’m if I find my thoughts going towards well then we just need to do this this and I’m no longer listening then that’s my issue But if I can just stay present, if I can stay mindful in such a way that says, okay, I’m just gonna listen, okay, and at the end of that conversation or at the end of that, and and ideally. You know, that that process shouldn’t go on for a day. You follow me? If I if I’m looking for, if I’m being vulnerable, I’m gonna be able to communicate what I need in a concise concept sort of way. You follow me? It doesn’t and it doesn’t have to be, you know, a run-on that goes on and on. I’m gonna be able to okay, so tell me what you need. And I’m gonna listen to that. And at that point, if I’m starting to feel reactive, okay, I may need to do something different. But I’m not and then I can you can express that need to me and in such a way that says and then I’m able to hear it, then it’s okay to be able to say, okay, do you want me just to listen or do you want some help in a fix? You know, is that I’m I’m I’m trying to support and I just need you to tell me that. Because if you want help fixing something, I’m your partner. I’m in it with you. But at the same time, if you just wanted to be able to share something in such a way that I can help carry a burden, lift a burden, lighten a burden, then that’s all you need. And you know, and I’m not gonna treat you as if you’re wrong and you need to be fixed because nobody likes being fixed.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And I and I think so that’s that’s where that’s how I would walk you know through that dynamic in such a way that says, okay, what do where’s that coming from? Is it is this, you know, is that an identity insecurity on my part that says this person’s sharing with me because they want me to be able to fix it? it. No, they might just want relationship.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

They want they may want to lighten the burden.

Justin:

Support.

Mark:

Support. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there again, that’s where relationship comes into play. Because I’m able to say, okay, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re operating perfectly based on where you’ve come from and what you’ve experienced. So in that process, granted, we’re human. So at that point, we’re going to have to recognize that, yeah, I’m going to see things differently. But that doesn’t make you wrong and me right. Mm-hmm. And I and I just and I guess that’s that’s my thing is I just I just feel for people who don’t have other people in their lives. to be able to support them in healthy ways. Because I think, you know, on the other end of the enmeshed, you know, dynamic is, you know, where where people are, there can also be isolation. You follow me? To where on one end it’s like I’m all about everybody and everybody’s all about me. But on the other end, it’s just I’m I’m on a rock, I’m an island. You know, and a rock doesn’t feel any pain and our island never cries. Or island doesn’t feel, you know, the Simon and Garfunkel stuff from way back. But you know, it’s like, no, that’s not truth. You know, because there’s a loneliness that goes there. And I think that can be equated to the aggressive side as well. You know, because I just live in this isolated world. where people have to say yes to me and I don’t and I so I guess I just feel for people and I want to recognize that conflict is oftentimes a healthy thing. Where growth is concerned. And yeah, I want to encourage people because at that point where I’m able to enter into conflict and I’m able to be authentic, and we’re able to learn to trust one another, we’re gonna build intimacy. And that doesn’t matter whether it’s you and Megan, or it doesn’t matter whether it’s, you know, me and my buddy. You know, that kind of thing. That process And I think that’s when conflict can become a healthy thing that doesn’t need to be avoided. But that’s how I see it. I realize, you know, my experience may not be everybody’s experience, but that’s what I guess uh it tends to be a passion of mine Where that’s concerned that conflict doesn’t have to be a bad thing.

Justin:

Well, just going back to the beginning with the book quote again, I think I like that perspective that conflict isn’t necessarily it’s not something we should seek out or desire in a relationship. It’s something we should recognize. is a natural byproduct of a healthy relationship. It is a machine working producing heat.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And that heat has to be dealt with for the machine to continue to work as well as it did. Like you it is a byproduct of a well working machine, but it’s also a a byproduct that we need to address and and work through to keep the machine working well, right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And so I think if you you know Y if your desire is no conflict then what you’re truly desiring is no relationship.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because that’s the own that vacuum that’s on a rock on a hill, like you said in the you know, or yeah, or authenticity.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right. Uh Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think uh just an important distinction. If you’re desiring conflict and you’re like, uh conflict is uh part of life and da da da You might be the aggressor, you might you know, you might need to chill out on on conflict, but also recognizing that there’s there’s always going to be conflict in learning how to address it and deal with it yeah in a healthy manner is a crucial piece to having a healthy life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To being a vegetable in the sun or in the shade that’s producing and healthy and

Mark:

Yeah. And I think it’s interesting because we, you know, even in the analogy use of the motor, you know, we have I think conflict, when it’s done well, has ways of are other systems that help us dissipate the heat. You follow me? An engine has a radiator. It has an exhaust that it directs that heat in a in a in a in a in a safe manner. You know, and yet there’s also this radiator that it’s taking in fresh air all the time to just run through that water to you know, th that cooling system. You know, so I think it is a, you know, a healthy system has ways of dealing with that heat and dissipating it in such a way that no one has to be harmed by it.

Justin:

It’s i that ‘s so good. Uh it makes me think of the inventor of the the the combustion engine, right? They didn’t start with a race.

Mark:

Oh, sure. No, I hear you.

Justin:

They created it, it ran, it got hot, it blew up, and they said, Oh, we need to do something about this heat, right? Yeah. And it was a process of figuring out to b to where now it the combustion engine is well figured out, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um the radiator. the water, all those things.

Mark:

Yeah. The systems.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think you might be in a place where you have an engine that overheats a lot and you don’t know that you need a radiator. But I will say that uh relationships are also a well figured out machine, right?

Mark:

Oh, sure.

Justin:

There are books, there are resources, there are counselors, there are churches, there are there are places to go to learn you know, what’s important in a relationship Well you need a radiator.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And let’s let’s say the radiator is you said bringing in fresh air while in as a believer is reading God’s word and listening to the the whole Holy Spirit speaking to me, it’s breathing life into me, right? Or an outlet, right? You need an outlet for the heat. So your exhaust system. Well that might be working out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That might be F three, you know, community of other um believer, you know, b brothers and working out together or whatever, uh it might be counseling as an outlet for that steam and that heat, right? Like but

Mark:

learning tools.

Justin:

Yeah, recognizing that those pieces are crucial parts to this, I think is very important.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

To a to a machine that’s working Well.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

That’s how I see it.

Mark:

That’s how I see it. Thanks for sharing.

Justin:

Thank you. That was good. Now let’s fight about it. I mean conflict. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.