0:03
good morning Mark good morning Justin how are you today I am well I just had a

0:10
really good conversation with a friend of mine good for you uh it was Mark Mark is my friend yes

0:18
and we We are continuing that's right the conversation not the same conversation but yes no but ironically

0:25
we're going to talk about listening yes which is what you're doing right now and we're so thankful aren't we Mark we are

0:33
thankful we're thankful that you're listening and if you're not then you should get on it there you go there you

0:40
go and I think uh so much of that is even uh what we do even between us it's

0:47
not just about who's on the other side I think when we desire

0:53
to connect with people and convey how I see it listening is so important

1:00
yeah you know and being able to oh being able to exchange roles between listener

1:08
and speaker yeah that's a talent it

1:16
[Music] is welcome to how I see it with me Mark

1:23
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to countercultural

1:29
Polar ization through thoughtful [Music]

1:36
conversations I I think about um I I listen to our

1:42
episodes I have to for editing or whatever and I I enjoy it it's one of my favorite podcasts I listen to

1:49
so no I really do enjoy it and um uh mostly I enjoy Mark side of things cuz

1:55
when I hear myself sometimes it's like the eyes start rolling you know that's all but one thing I noticed and Megan said

2:02
it cuz she's listening you know to a bunch of them too and it's like you guys say m a lot like like responding to each

2:10
other and I was like yeah I noticed that too and it gets I shouldn't even tell

2:15
you because now you're you're going to hear it everyone's going to hear it don't do it Mark don't say we hear it

2:20
yeah yeah and it's it's not always M it's sometimes ah yeah well the point is

2:28
what's happening mhm is that we're listening MH and I'm listening to Mar I'm going

2:36
that's good oh yeah oh oh yeah it's like because I really

2:42
truly enjoy what you have to say and and the listening aspect and that is

2:47
compulsory you know what I mean but it is funny to just listen back on it and be like are they

2:52
just I don't know it almost sounds like a little too I don't know what it is it just gets annoying I guess really okay I

2:59
I had heard it from that perspective I'll I'll probably have a change in my in my thoughts but I I do I do

3:09
recognize that I'm not a fast thinker I'll I'll be the first to I

3:16
can't help it it's gonna happen Mark what's gonna happen oh that's okay but I

3:22
I recognized that you know in the process and I appreciate the fact that you you warned people right at the very

3:28
beginning like listen to this one and a half listen to this to two times whatever you need to you know cuz we

3:34
sound smarter or something I think is what you said that's right you know but at the same time I can admit I don't

3:42
think fast and sometimes yeah in this context I am still pondering what you're

3:50
saying if I'm truly listening and I I think that's what um I can admire people

4:00
who have a talent to be able to hear something process it and

4:08
communicate it in a efficient manner because sometimes I'm still looking for

4:14
the correct word and in response to new

4:20
information but I think that's also a part of listening and I I think you know

4:25
in our culture in a soundbite culture with media

4:30
and you know and editing everything can sound so concise and fast and you know

4:37
it's like we don't even think about it MH but I think there is something to be said for the aspect

4:44
of a pace or a a slowness that needs to be had to truly

4:52
listen MH versus just repeating what I'm thinking yeah because I've already been

4:58
thinking and I'm I'm really just holding on to my thought until I get an opportunity to say my thought after your

5:06
thought MH versus the real aspect of listening saying no my thoughts were my

5:11
thoughts have been checked for the last 30 seconds while I'm hearing and I'm

5:18
listening to processing what you're really saying before I

5:24
respond yeah by the way I was thinking about my response when I

5:30
I think that's part of the I'm going to excuse my behavior because I think that's part of podcast

5:37
right it's like don't allow there to be dead air so it's like okay all right let me fill in all right go exactly yeah um

5:46
no dead air so what were you thinking um I was just thinking about how you use the term active listening

5:54
before we started recording and listening actively isn't is it is an

6:00
act of effort like listening is an effort because our natural desire is to be answering right like oural

6:07
inclination think our natural desire god-given oh I don't know I I

6:13
think I'm um I'm thinking I think I think our na a natural

6:20
inclination is to be responding to what's being said you know versus like trying to process what they're saying

6:27
it's okay let me give you back my thoughts I mean it's very okay right so most of us if

6:34
what I'm hearing there is most of us are uncomfortable with silence

6:40
um yes that's not quite where I was going where I was going is more of most of us are just processing the world

6:48
through our vision and so when we hear something we naturally want to say well here's how I see it you

6:55
know right and so it's uh but often what that means is that comes at the expense of truly

7:02
listening because we're not listening we're just resing what we just

7:08
said you know in response to what they said or whatever um and and there's also an aspect to

7:16
truly listening where you have to when we're talking about listening

7:21
we're not just talking about the typical kind of conversation we're talking about listening to

7:28
understand right sure I think and it's this idea that I have to stop my thoughts and hear yours which is what

7:34
you were just saying which again takes effort to stop my thoughts just to hear

7:40
yours and I think for me yeah a big part of um a good listening experience on my

7:49
end is to you you said when when they stop talking for there to be silence I

7:55
think that's an acceptable thing for me I think a big part of is being able to say okay let me say what you

8:00
said let me see if I understand what you said and and repeat it right and um I think that's a good way to

8:10
practice better listening sure is to is to to hear what someone said and then

8:15
try and repeat it back to them and say do I have that right and they might correct you and they might say well I

8:20
didn't mean that you know and here you know um like that just happened right like I said um her natural respon you

8:29
know inclination is to respond and you said well you mean are God give whatever and I said no I don't think I like

8:35
that's you are listening you repeated what I you thought I was saying you know is this what I heard yeah yeah um but

8:43
the value of truly listening is the difference between staying in my position or

8:51
growing and learning and and moving right and that's a big part of what we're this podcast is about is

8:57
polarization and well well you're a Democrat I'm a Republican and there's

9:02
nothing you can say that's going to change my mind you know this is this and this is this and this is black and white

9:08
right where truly listening I think that's a big motive for our podcast is

9:14
to say that perspective has value sure but you will never get glean that

9:23
value if your only intention is response or or

9:30
or convince or prove that you're right you know what I mean it requires uh

9:36
setting down of myself and just and embracing and listening and taking it

9:42
and hearing it without propping up judgment you know what I mean so as you

9:48
as you think about that I'm I'm thinking about you know what what are some

9:55
obstacles that we face when it comes to really listening I I hear the

10:00
polarization but I'm I'm thinking about it in a in a context of you know family

10:06
Dynamics you know what what what leads to that point where we

10:13
just shut someone out because we don't want to hear it and

10:18
I respect the fact that hearing something is different than listening to someone but I guess I'm I'm thinking

10:24
about it from a how do speaking to someone you you know who is in the midst

10:31
of a circumstance and they're saying you know what I don't really want to

10:37
listen I don't I don't want to do that well I feel like you just hit the

10:43
nail on the head when you said I don't want to hear it sure because what that

10:50
implies mhm is that I already know what you're going to say right yeah and it's not applicable

10:58
yeah right it's not important to me right or or it doesn't it's it's so

11:04
it gets to a point where the frustration over a lack of

11:12
change because we've had this conversation before and I know exactly

11:18
what you're going to say so there's no use entering the discussion anymore mhm

11:25
I think we can get to that point oh yeah for sure easily yeah quickly and not

11:31
every statement is worth listening to that doesn't mean

11:39
you shouldn't yeah I don't know yeah yeah I think you know one of your

11:47
catchphrases is I hear you right yep and I think there's that's kind of this

11:55
valuable perspective that I think culturally we often miss which is it's

12:01
important to still listen even if during the course of listening you're like maybe I don't

12:06
agree with that that's okay keep going sure right and giving that space and I think that comes from a big part of the

12:13
therapeutic background right like probably you have to listen that's your job right uh but to be able to give

12:20
space for the communication to learn from to hear what they're saying you know and then to be able to process it

12:26
and go hm I hear you mhm which is your way of saying I'm not sure I'm 100% on

12:33
board but you're also not saying you know responding with here's my thing you just say hm I hear you you

12:39
know yeah so I think that catchphrase in some ways is a good um a good way to be

12:46
again to practice right listening understood so next time you're having trouble listening try on a

12:53
Marxism I hear you and then stop talking yeah and and I think that is the ability

13:01
to be able to say yes I want to hear still more because I may not have a full

13:09
my my opinion isn't necessarily developed at this point and I think that's a positive Dynamic when it comes

13:14
to listening as well to where we can basically say okay I'm open to your

13:20
opinion as we've talked about it you know before having a open open-minded

13:25
Viewpoint I think that's that's helpful where our listening is Con concerned and

13:30
um so if if we're coming away from Marxism what keeps Justin from being

13:36
able to listen at times or how in that balance if you will

13:43
I think the simplest answer to that is just pride and thinking that I have the

13:48
answers right or um yeah and so for

13:54
me it's just an ongoing

14:00
battle and or effort to say maybe you don't know it all whatever like maybe

14:08
there's something here that's worth hearing and there always there always is Mark I'm not as smart as I think I am

14:16
right so I think for me and I my natural inclination is to be

14:24
very bad at listening I will also say I worked very hard at being good at listening um so so there's there's a

14:31
dichotomy there like there are sometimes I'm really bad and I fail and there are other times that I'm I'm doing what I

14:37
practiced and and I'm good at it you know I would say because I put the effort in um celebrate recover is a big

14:44
part of that because uh there are certain relationships that are kind of I guess mandated through the process and

14:51
uh sponsor sponsor sponsor spony relationships a sponsor is not meant to

14:56
be talking the ear off they're meant to be a listener and that's a core value of being a good sponsor is listening and so

15:03
I've had to practice that and what I can tell you is I started out very badly and

15:09
burnt some bridges because of it and burnt some relationships because in a

15:16
Celebrate Recovery we say we're not here to fix you MH well I was fixing I got you you know what I mean and um I've

15:23
learned that for me the best way to not fix is to listen

15:30
because when I can listen and I shut up and I stop the voices and say oh I got

15:36
just a thing for you and I listen I'm able to go oh mhm oh yeah that's wow

15:44
that's really hard actually I I didn't really think about that until you said

15:49
that sure and when you said that it all started to click for me why that's so

15:55
hard for you and I was was going to say this and I just don't think it's that

16:01
simple and I've I've had that that exact conversation so many times sure and it

16:09
the non-practice Justin would have just said the thing mhm and it would have

16:14
been uh TR Y and useless to them and next conversation being like I don't

16:21
want to hear that mhm right sure that same kind of thing of like I you've said

16:26
that before it's not helpful yeah I don't know so I think part of it is practice part of it is learning through

16:33
failing and uh because here's the thing if you don't

16:39
listen you're not going to have good relationships no doubt I think that's a

16:45
core piece to having good relationships is having the ability to listen what do you think and well and I'm thinking even

16:52
as as I'm listening you know you describe that Dynamic of fix Ing and I

16:59
think so much of the listening is the difference between me knowing or you

17:05
knowing me versus me knowing you and when I am listening that conveys my

17:13
desire to know you versus you knowing what I know when I'm talking you know

17:20
that's that's what I know but I think when we're able to sit back and listen like you're describing it's a desire to

17:28
know and I think it is arrogance on our part

17:33
when we shorten that moment of listening to 5 10 minutes and we got it all

17:41
figured out you follow me because some of this stuff is is days and weeks and

17:48
you know lifetimes of communication to be able to know someone to the to the depth of good

17:56
relationship and I dare say that length of time to understanding

18:04
is much is directly proportional to how similar or dissimilar you are to

18:11
somebody so let me explain no iara if I'm going to talk to

18:19
um I don't know let's say a lesbian black woman okay who grew up in the

18:24
Bronx sure her way of life and culture and

18:30
everything is so completely different from me mhm that it's going to take me

18:39
it should should take me yes a long time of listening yes right of like I want to

18:46
understand before I speak to it right whatever the thing is right like I don't

18:51
know why we're in the same room talking I don't know what the the thing is but the point is that time mhm is is directly

19:01
proportional to how similar or dissimilar I am to someone um I think what happens though is the the less

19:08
similar we are the more we think we have them summarized sure we know that Trope

19:13
you're that mhm and we just Short Circuit the the the learning and the listening or can like I think it's a

19:20
tendency right especially if we're not in the room with the person having a real conversation it's easy to say oh I

19:26
know that person you know and I don't yeah or the fact that we know

19:31
characteristics about that person you know female black Bronx whatever you

19:37
know we have the trappings of our own thoughts stereotypes if you will that go

19:43
along with all of those right you know and and we have to be able to sit back

19:48
and say okay that's not that person this person is right here right now and in

19:55
order for me to know them I have to to be able to just listen mhm and I think

20:01
you know it's a it's a it's a it's a practice as you're saying it's a

20:07
learning that comes with time to be able to do it well and I do think at times

20:12
you know our discomfort with difference with Silence

20:19
with that process does impact our ability to do it

20:26
well MH you know I and remember I remember early on even when Chris and I were married you know it's like I came

20:33
from a family that talked a lot you know and there was there was multiple

20:39
conversations you know no one was listening you know very little listening I should say most people were talking

20:47
and you know through being married to Chris I've I've learned to do it better as you describe you know that ability to

20:53
say you know okay and as a I forget

20:59
I forget whether it was our previous conversation or I just said it in this conversation I'll let you know you know but we were talking about how um oh sh I

21:08
I just Li I I lost it but either way I was thinking about family Dynamics and

21:13
how you know I learned from Chris and her ability but the conversation would move on

21:21
before Chris was able to be felt comfortable in the situation because

21:26
everybody was talking and there was no time allowed for response and it wasn't

21:32
until later on it's like you know it takes the average individual up to 7

21:39
Seconds uh to actually formulate at times a response and I was thinking

21:45
about it in that context sometimes we're just so uncomfortable with the silence that we can't necessarily sit with

21:52
someone that long to be able to allow them to process but that's what some

21:58
people people need in order to even engage a process and I think you know

22:05
that's a that's a a good awareness that I gained from Chris is to the point of

22:10
being able to say okay she's not ignoring me she's not being stubborn

22:15
she's just honestly giving me her best and she's willing to take time to

22:22
formulate that so that I know that and you know I I and I I still had

22:29
lost a part of what I was going to say about my family Dynamic but the three conversations at once it it took me a

22:37
long time because to get to that point where I was able

22:42
to actually Zone in on one conversation versus maintaining the ability to hear

22:50
three different conversations at the same time and that that was something that I had to

22:57
relearn the way I grew up see that when I uh I'm I'm terrible at multitasking

23:05
and so if I yeah I would I can't do that I I can't anymore I don't I don't desire

23:12
yeah yeah I think I was going to say I don't see that I from what I know of Mark that's not the Mark I know but it's

23:18
interesting to hear that but there was multiple I can I can still just remember it I mean you know and when my when my

23:25
you know family gets together there's still I mean you know in a family D nothing against them I'm just saying you

23:31
know there's multiple conversations going on and yeah it was just an

23:38
interesting way to grow up in that inability to actually listen for me

23:45
how it was kind of modeled but then you know over time of course you know you you say okay this is impacting my

23:52
relationship with you mhm and my ability to really know what's going on in your

23:58
life m versus that desire to know what's going on with everyone else out there

24:04
and I think you know even from our you know there's a lot of things

24:09
that um create obstacles to our ability to listen well when we're trying to do

24:16
too many other things we're having too many other thoughts too many other influences and I think you know the

24:22
active listening is definitely right it's saying this is my front and center activity yes is the listening this is my

24:29
focus this you know not these three yeah yeah yeah that's good and my desire to

24:35
know what's really going on

24:40
yeah yeah I'm letting there be silence for me yeah it's awkward is it

24:48
comfortable it is I am one of those people that finds

24:53
silence a little bit awkward so I'll just you said take to 7 Seconds you know

24:59
to formulate a response usually I'll I'll start talking and let that six to S

25:05
seconds work its way out while I'm talking so that's another way people do it sometimes people I think you were

25:11
saying like Chris will process without talking and sometimes we'll process as we're talking and I think if if you're

25:17
not good at listening it's easy to tune someone like that out like cuz Okay it's six to S okay you've had your time yep

25:24
you got nothing to say and this is what I'm saying yeah yeah and they're just

25:29
getting to the thing their actual response right and you're actually shutting that person down yeah because

25:37
you really don't want to hear yeah or you want to you're un I shouldn't say it like that you're uncom your own

25:46
discomfort is causing you to speak again before you're able to actually listen to

25:53
someone's response yeah I think discomfort is a motive

25:59
um I really think the primary motive is just that I really do think what I have to say is that important is that good

26:05
and by I I mean most people I I do I think it's just our natural inclination

26:11
to think what you're saying is good but just wait till you hear this yeah I think that's that's who we

26:18
are most of us you know um and

26:23
listening most of what we're talking about right now is selling the benefit to us as The Listener like that I think

26:31
that's the thing that we miss is the benefits gained from truly

26:36
listening um and I think some of the benefits from

26:42
a receiving end of that the benefits you're granting are maybe more um

26:49
obvious right like you're showing someone that you care or whatever but I don't think it should be understated I

26:55
think the benefits that you're granting by truly listening are so valuable it

27:01
again it is the difference between an acquaintance and a friend

27:07
right to be able to grant that opportunity it's the difference between someone acknowledging you you as someone

27:13
that they trust and and confide in and and think of you as one of their people or not you know and in some cases you

27:21
can use that to your benefit like maybe you don't want to be in there be that person for them and say no I don't know

27:28
that's that's a stretch to say don't listen if you don't want to be their friend or whatever yeah I'm not saying

27:34
that I mean I did just say that that's I don't really mean that I guess I'm just saying the best

27:41
way to improve uh any relationship is to truly listen and that includes

27:46
relationships with people you don't like you don't care for you don't think like

27:51
they're in a in a demographic you don't agree with mhm

27:57
you know what I mean I and I'm and I'm thinking about the best way as you describe it how do you how do you

28:04
personally initiate that how do you how do you that opportunity the the I mean I

28:13
understand we have co-workers you know people we come in contact with on a

28:18
routine basis you know but I'm thinking about you know family Dynamics people

28:25
that I haven't talked with in a while you know not talked with but you know if I'm not talking with them I'm not having

28:32
the opportunity to listen to them and I'm thinking about it how do you go about initiating that interaction that

28:40
says I want to get to know you does that make sense in that context

28:47
y a big part of my thing is

28:53
simply age kind of the the experience that comes with age where I want to say for

29:01
all of my 20s it was I wasn't doing that I was looking for anyone to listen you know

29:09
because I had all the good stuff to say you know and you have an you had an

29:15
abundance yes to share yes gotcha and I really thought it was just about

29:22
opportunity like as long as I had the opportunity then it people would listen it would be you know

29:29
and I would say there was a a a great

29:34
transition you were saying people and people would listen yes yes there was a transition I'm going to call this early

29:42
mid-30s okay where I started to my perception

29:47
improved to where I said oh people aren't listening even when I have

29:55
opportunity cuz I thought it was just a lack of opportunity I'm just 20 something no one wants to listen to me so I don't have the right opportunities

30:01
right once I started gaining those opportunities recognize oh actually

30:07
people don't want to hear what I have to say because we're all in the same boat we all want everyone else to hear what

30:12
we have to say and I start to be able to

30:18
uh I guess perceive as you have a conversation that that person's not really listening they're waiting to

30:23
answer right sure that transition got me to a point I

30:30
was like well what's the point of anything right but that wasn't the end the next thing of my learning was going

30:38
oh let's give that person what they want like there there's an opportunity here

30:44
to encourage that person and like actually listen to what they're saying

30:49
oh cool so you rebuilt that engine wow you know like oh big tires cool you know

30:54
whatever the thing is like tell me more where do you get those like what what made you decide that you liked working

31:01
on cars in the first and oh wow that's cool you had that relationship with your father and you know like you can go from

31:09
you know uh you ever heard of the Mi monster no but I yeah Google IDE me

31:15
Monster uh I think it's Mi Monster uh Brian rean just go Google it right now

31:20
you can pause us it's worth your time it's hilarious anyway you you go from

31:26
this escalating me monster battle right like oh you know to saying oh tell me more

31:32
about that and it can completely convert a conversation from a one-upmanship into

31:37
an actual real conversation about real stuff and I found that that was

31:43
really fun sure does that make sense it's like I get to know this person and

31:49
I don't have to do that stupid battle that I hate because I don't you know it's

31:54
like yeah who likes that anyway yeah I think maybe there's 10% of people who

32:00
are just that right like they like that they like to just one up one it just makes them feel good I think the rest of us when we do that we feel gross and

32:07
it's like why am I doing this and we you know yeah no it's it's interesting that

32:13
you uh I'm I'm still even thinking now after you're sharing there um I think

32:19
everybody has a desire to be heard but I'm still wrestling with everybody

32:25
having a desire to say m or speak that's fair I guess that this is

32:32
com very much coming from a how I see it because that's how I am and was and always will you know so what you're

32:39
saying you think most people have a desire to say you know or or or share

32:47
it's like I'm not sure that I agree with that when I think about our wives even

32:52
to a certain degree aged yeah you know and that might be the reason they married us I don't know one of them no

32:58
but at the same time thinking about still I believe there is an an innate

33:04
desire in everyone to be heard yeah and that that implies the need for listening

33:12
you know to where someone can actually feel known by me shutting my mouth and

33:19
just sitting for a moment and and absorbing versus that yeah talking

33:29
yeah yeah and the thing is too um like you said everyone has the desire to be

33:35
heard MH which means there are opportunities

33:40
for wholesome conversations with every single person because even those people who don't have a desire to say do have a

33:48
desire to be heard and so you can a great way to practice listening

33:54
yeah is to find someone who's quiet and just ask them questions right like practice listening

34:02
and say oh well where'd you learn that you know give them space to you know and

34:08
of course some people you they're not there for it and yeah you know move on or whatever but I think that's a great P

34:16
or you know in the case of the me monster someone who really likes to talk like give them that just keep give

34:21
feeding them line see see where the conversation goes and then see if you can Veer it into a real place instead of

34:27
how much money they have or how big their house is or what you know me like transitioning into real things uh good

34:34
ways to practice listening maybe I don't know yeah who has uh when you think of

34:40
who has listened to you well what what is that characteristic I

34:46
will say Mark Pratt is a very go go you can go someplace else but I'm thinking

34:52
of it from that context of what for you

34:58
helps you recognize that someone is

35:03
listening um what what's been modeled for

35:09
you I think the answer to that is maybe too complex to summarize too easily

35:17
because I do think people exhibit listening differently okay is that fair

35:22
yeah yeah but some people will engage you you know look you right in the eye

35:27
and like no they up and down others will look into the Stars you know and like it

35:33
might not seem like they're listening but they're truly processing and

35:40
um I think what tells me somebody's listening is how they respond yeah it's I think

35:48
it's I think that part's simple right to say let's see how they respond to what I

35:53
just said okay now I know they weren't listening and they were simply looking to respond and then it in my

36:02
experience understanding what a conversation's going to be is pretty easy easy to assess within the first two

36:10
you know back and forth right it's like okay I understand now this is going to be about your car and all right let's do

36:16
this I can do this that's fine now I know you know right uh every once you know then then there are certain people

36:23
where you'll hear from their response oh they want to know about what I think

36:29
about this MH and I think sometimes I'll enter those tentatively

36:35
like there's a little opening here but it's not what I 20-some would have thought it was it's like oh now you're

36:42
going to get the book of wisdom you know whatever but it's an opportunity that I can see where it goes and I think

36:51
sometimes too there's been many times where there was that opening I had this convers I had said a few things and then

36:57
turned off you could see it visibly you could see it whenever and for me those are good contact clues to shut up and or

37:04
reverse it or uh sometimes it's just about time like you could see someone Shi in their seat and it's oh oh they

37:13
might have to get to work yeah you know what I mean yeah yeah and I don't know does that I forget what you even ask how

37:19
you been modeled how it's been model you know people that have listened again I think responding in a way that says I

37:26
heard what you just said said yeah and a repetition of what was said or a

37:32
rephrasing or a kind of a summary is always a good a great way to see it um I

37:38
also think not cutting someone off sure is the best way to say I'm listening

37:45
yeah give them the room you know yeah which I cut you off all the time it's all good I was I was thinking about it

37:51
even as you know as I think about people who have listened to me you know role models that kind of thing

37:58
I think there was a a sense that maybe leading the conversation isn't the right

38:04
way but yet there was a desire to know

38:10
that allowed that that person conveyed to me the desire to know so it allowed me to

38:18
speak in such a way that I knew I was leading the conversation you know does that make

38:24
sense in the in the context that I was able to say whatever I needed to say in

38:30
that moment in in response to their inquiry or whatever and they would go

38:35
with me there tell me more about that yeah

38:40
help me understand that what was that like you follow me and it it and in that

38:46
moment I'm actually con able to they're conveying to me that you're leading this

38:52
conversation we're heading in the direction of me knowing you and for that you have to be able to decide MH and you

38:59
get to decide that to whatever degree you want to decide that if you want to

39:04
go further and we get to know each other at a deep level well I'll ask deeper

39:10
conversations but if your response says I'm not sure I want to share that with you you know it's not that they're and

39:17
and if they're listening they're able to say okay I apologize I didn't mean to I it was just a desire to know you and I

39:24
apologize you know if that you're uncomfortable with that question but but at the same time if they can say yeah my

39:30
childhood I can I can still you know hear my hear my parents arguing you know that kind of thing and you're able to

39:37
say wow what was that like for you you know 10 years old and you're you know in

39:43
your bedroom just waiting for the you know things to hit the fan and then they

39:48
say yeah that was that was tough you know then I think that's how we can

39:54
convey when we're not having to to lead it but we're actually following someone

40:00
then we're able to listen I think that's what's been modeled for me is yeah I want to hear so

40:09
at the same time I'm going to actively listen but that invites you to take

40:15
ownership or actively speak in truth if you desire to be known yeah because I

40:23
think I think knowing and being known can be reciprocal yeah you know and just

40:31
because someone may not I think we can always listen don't get me wrong but I

40:37
think there is a point where sometimes people are uncomfortable to what degree

40:44
they want to be known right and I think that's important for us to be aware of as well which takes listening yes

40:54
yes so I really was not trying to blow smoke uh like I really if you get a

41:01
chance to meet Mark and talk to him you should and just have a good conversation with him because he will listen to you

41:08
and he's very good at it and so the reason I'm saying that is I would love to

41:13
know how like did you was this a natural inclination was this a um you know how

41:21
sometimes you learn from the negative patterns in your family and you go the opposite was it that was there Tools in

41:28
your education uh for learning family counseling and therapy that you have

41:34
adopted it to be like I would love to know your perspective on that I would

41:39
say it's a combination of all three um my here again I grew up my

41:48
families they interacted um but yet there was something out about my mom I mean

41:59
she was a counselor before I was now granted in the whole scheme of things I

42:06
think I think she grew up in that same I know she grew up in that same system

42:11
that was uncomfortable was silence but yeah I can remember from

42:17
early on people just showing up at the back door to sit down at the kitchen

42:23
table with my mom and talk with her I mean you know to this day the back door

42:30
is not going to be locked you know and people will just show up no schedule no

42:38
you know you know from my from my world just to be able to do that now some of that is just visiting but I can remember

42:46
countless people you know in the midst of going through a separation or you

42:51
know some kind of transition so even that I would say was my for me you know

42:58
the ability to make time I think because that's an important part of listening I

43:04
can't I can't listen to somebody in five minutes it we got to go you know yeah if

43:10
you see someone look at the clock watch clock yeah that's a pretty good sign yeah not listen that we don't have we

43:17
don't really have time for this yeah you know we're we're we're acquaintances and we're saying hi and that's what it's

43:24
going to be but we're not going to have an here to get to know what's going on

43:29
with one another so that was one aspect of it um the other aspect of course is a

43:37
has been being married to Chris she when I married her she was a far better listener than I was far better and and

43:44
she's taught me a lot about what it what I need to do to be able to listen

43:52
versus what I versus the way I did conversation m you know there's a

43:58
difference between doing conversation I can do small chat you know that kind of thing I grew up with that I grew up with

44:04
older people too I was you know one of those kids that was just more

44:10
comfortable with older people having you know older conversations I didn't mind listening to the stories I was intrigued

44:17
by the stories so even in some of that it taught me you know it's like hey if

44:22
you listen long enough you're going to get a you're going to get some good stories you know from

44:28
anybody but you know definitely older people so yeah Chris was a big part of that she taught me you know through our

44:33
marital Dynamic you know how to listen better and then of course there is you know the therapeutic you know you you

44:40
can look it up you know the solar stuff squaring off open open body position you

44:45
know lean in I haven't even done these in a long time but you know I forget what a anr responsive or you know are I

44:53
forget what a is but either way you know there's there's techniques ask quick question of course it sounds like

44:59
there's a there's a lot yeah of stuff would you say that listening is a a

45:05
significant chunk of the training for counseling yeah no doubt no doubt I

45:10
would imagine I would yeah and I'm and I'm saying even as I'm thinking about you

45:16
know the techniques you're given um I think I think you can do all the

45:23
techniques quote unquote wrong you know I I don't necessarily believe you you

45:29
know have to square off with somebody you know because some people are just

45:35
going to be intimidated by that if I have too much eye contact with some individuals it's something you have to

45:41
monitor you know if you're too intense with your eye contact it's intimidating

45:47
it is yeah you follow me so I think you know it's it's getting to know that person you know or even you know open

45:55
body position you know it's like you know there's a lot of people that just feel more comfortable yeah if somebody's

46:01
open with you you're more likely to share but yet you know there's a lot of people that sit with their arms crossed

46:07
and their hand underneath their chin and it's not a open body position but I know

46:13
they're listening to me because of the way the interaction is going and I think

46:18
that can be conveyed as well to where there's techniques you know that we can learn

46:25
but I think you know as as as you shared you know so much more of it

46:31
is number one listening and and number two and this is here again this was

46:37
probably more Chris she's better at asking questions than I am I can

46:43
verified Chris is a great listener I love chatting with her it's like you feel like yeah it's that's she's right

46:50
she's right there but you both like that's how I feel about you both so I'm just I'm just saying

46:57
yeah I can admit she's better at it than I am and she has taught me a lot of that

47:04
and it just so happens that I happen to be the one with the degree with the license but like you say there's there's

47:11
that's that's probably one of my you know that's one of my passions is being

47:17
able to listen you know to people with Chris because in my in my world you know

47:25
there I have to se at that at times you know confidentiality and so forth but if

47:31
I get to interact like you're saying you know you get you enjoy spending time with us and I recognize it's because

47:39
you're spending more time with Chris than just me no I but yet it's in that context of being able to say yeah this

47:46
can just be an open Forum of conversation and we don't have any secrets that we have to keep because

47:52
that was a difficult part of my transition is you know every everything we shared before people we'd listen to

48:00
before you know we typically did that as a couple now I'm listening to people on a separate and you know it's not that we

48:07
don't it's not we can't do that but at the same time it was an awkward thing to

48:13
be able to say okay yeah I have all these piece of people that I'm listening to and I can't share any of that with

48:18
you I remember her talking about it in our podcast with the wives too how that was a difficult yes interesting

48:25
transition yeah of like yeah and then in in addition I would also say um and it's

48:34
probably somewhat Chris to but the kids because I think you know we can it's one

48:40
thing to listen to someone as a peer kind of in a same level interaction but

48:47
and I and I will say you know even my experience with intensive inhome you

48:52
know I like kids and I enjoy you know even at even to this day you know I mean

48:58
you know say teenagers say adolescent to some people and it's like oh they get the heebie jibbies type thing you know

49:04
but that's not my experience it's just you know because I think they're they're

49:10
doing everything just the way they're designed to do it you know and yes you

49:17
know if if you need to have someone convey respect to you in order for you

49:25
to listen to them that's your issue that's not their issue

49:31
you follow me that's good yeah because I think you know if and and I think there I feel like that could be the synopsis

49:37
right there but I do well and that's where I was coming back to I think that comes

49:42
back to Pride you know because you have to be able to listen to me and I got the

49:49
solution you're just immature and you don't know and it's like no you haven't

49:55
you haven't listened long enough and the the reality of it is there's not

50:01
relationship enough there yet for you to go to that reaction MH you you have to

50:09
be able to say okay I check my identity at the door and I will let's let's let's

50:15
be authentic and let's really talk about what's going on and if you don't know

50:22
what's going on that's still okay too mhm so talk with me about you know the

50:27
questions you have what are your thoughts on that what happened cuz

50:32
that's what I want to know because I'm happy to talk it through and as you talk it through you hear it come off your

50:39
lips you're able to process that in a way that you can't in your own mind I

50:45
mean that's worth you know the the from my perspective it's not this is to your

50:51
fixing it's not nearly so much what I have to offer

50:56
as a solution as much as it is you hearing yourself say it

51:03
audibly in such a way that says oh that's what I'm thinking I'm not sure I

51:10
agree with that you does that make sense yeah I think it's worth resing I already say it

51:17
or you can resay it go right ahead what did you hear what I heard is how important it is I think I think one of

51:24
the most important parts of listening is giving the opportunity for someone to say what they're thinking sure and allow

51:30
them to hear what they're thinking yes and to process it through and how much

51:35
they can gain simply by saying what they're thinking and I mean there's been so many times where I've said what I've

51:41
think thought to you or to anyone and just said but I don't really agree with

51:47
what I think you know that's that's Insight because that it's that it's that

51:53
part where I've had this rumination if you will in the back of my mind that

51:58
this is the way it is but then when I communicate that out loud I put those

52:03
sound waves out there something about that says

52:09
H I'm not sure I agree with that and that may need to change I may need to

52:16
challenge that thought and I and I think that's that's the power and I think that's where we we

52:23
bring this topic up that's the power of listening yeah yes cuz if I'm just trying to fix

52:30
someone yeah and I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about uh the way Celebrate

52:36
Recovery does groups because it's so cool um essentially we have guidelines

52:42
that we read at the beginning of every uh open Share Group which is just kind of our uh support kind of opportunities

52:49
on Friday nights and then our step study groups uh which are the you know the 12 Steps going through the process and one

52:57
of those there's there's a couple tenants but one is that only one person talks at a time there isn't like a

53:02
conversational aspect to it and I think sometimes people get like that's takes

53:09
them a little off um it's a little weird to them coming into that thinking I

53:14
thought I was going to come here to get fixed you were going to tell me what to do uh but that's not how it works it's

53:21
essentially each person has their opportunity to share from their perspective and no one's the part

53:27
there's no cross talk and there's no fixing so no one's allowed to say oh I have just the thing for you or whatever

53:34
it's meant to be you talk about your stuff and we move to the next person they talk about their stuff uh not to

53:41
respond to the last person but to deal with their own stuff and what's so cool about it is both what you said the fact

53:49
that when I say something openly and honestly sometimes I look at what I just

53:54
said it goes to to the middle of the room in front of everyone and we're all able to look at it and me as the speaker

54:00
can go g gross right like and and and there's so much value in that and but no

54:07
one telling me that's gross or whatever like you're wrong just my own opportunity to look at it reflectively

54:14
and then vice versa when you're speaking across the room I have no opportunity to

54:20
fix you or speak back to you MH so what am I left to do well I can Daydream or I

54:25
can listen yeah right and so there's so much power what does that elicit in you though when

54:31
you're actually listen when I'm listening what's so cool about that uh is the fact that so in a conversation

54:39
we're often guarded you know we're we're kind of got our Dukes up you know and we're waiting okay you punch now I punch

54:47
you punch now in the case of a circular group like that where no one's allowed

54:53
to conversate or fix or respond back my dukes are down I have no reason to be

54:59
defensive I have no reason to be blocking what you're saying I can just take it in and what that what happens is

55:05
they might say exactly what I need to hear where if they said you're doing this thing and you need to do this I

55:12
would say how dare you but they're saying I'm doing this thing and I need to do this and I'm going holy crap

55:18
that's me mhm and my dukes aren't up right so it can come inh you know and

55:24
then you multiply that times you know 12 to 20 people in a room sure you know not

55:30
all of them are going to make an impact or whatever but you do that over multiple nights you know eventually it's

55:37
crazy the amount of change that can seep in just by saying a thing in a safe

55:43
environment where no one's going to tell me what to you know and vice versa hearing what they're saying in that same

55:48
environment that Circle that I mean I just I we we have a thing called

55:54
newcomers 101 MH uh CR 101 on Friday nights where we kind of explain what CR is and I always talk about just how cool

56:01
this circular Dynamic is because it it's just something about it but it's the key

56:06
is listening both as being in that room listening to everyone else but also

56:11
listening as I say my thing and then like listening to How it sounds you know what I mean even that's listening yeah

56:18
so I don't know I just you made me think of that in terms of when you share something in it thanks

56:25
for sharing and Justin as they'd say yes thanks for sharing yes but no

56:33
that's uh and I and I think too the listening part also as you describe I I would say

56:41
that that not only creates an empathy I feel for that person but it also

56:48
normalizes you know that okay that it minimizes that guilt and that shame

56:54
cycle that basically says I'm the the only one in here that's screwed up mhm

56:59
or I'm the only one that messes up and it's like no that's not the case and I turns out yeah you're all screwed up

57:07
exactly and yet at the same time I can feel I can have empathy for your

57:15
circumstance and I desire to support you as you desire to challenge yourself and

57:21
grow and I think that can include our ability to listen mhm as we challenge

57:27
ourselves and grow yes so keep working on it work on listening and I will as

57:34
well Mark so that's how I see it thanks have

57:41
a good [Music]

57:47
one hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

57:54
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58:24
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