0:00
[Music] to see that was something that I was not

0:06
aware of just want to be vulnerable about my lack of attention sometimes when I was trying to figure out is his

0:11
left my left no I don't wait no that's definitely that's on his right okay yeah

0:16
so they're backwards I appreciate you bringing that to my attention I'll I'll I uh need to be more careful when I put

0:23
my headphones on no it's all good yes indeed

0:28
[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

0:36
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

0:41
countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

0:48
conversations kind of like that yeah good morning Justin it's kind of like the gong in uh

0:55
like therapy or something like that yeah yeah or yoga you know it's like yeah yeah either way that's our gong a clap

1:04
let's let the segment begin that's right good morning Mark good morning Justin how are you I am well thank you good I

1:11
am excited why I'm excited about our topic today yeah yeah too it's a good

1:16
one it is it's an important one it is I mean I guess I like to think all our topics are important yeah but I think

1:23
there are those that you just feel connect more with the heart of who we

1:29
are as human beings yeah you know yeah and I respect the fact you know

1:34
some of our topics are maybe a little more relative MH but I think this one is

1:41
uh is specific to each and every one of us yeah you can't really get away from

1:47
this topic yes right yeah you can but it will have a cost that's right and

1:53
therefore we're talking about vulnerability today and uh so as I as we think of the

1:59
word just the word itself I realize we've kind of looked into this a little bit but if you were to kind of think

2:05
back what and someone said vulnerability what would come to mind for

2:10
you I mean prior to the quote unquote research we did was is watch a ber Brown

2:16
video that you will definitely link to but yeah um I think of honesty uh

2:23
transparency sure that's a word we would use a lot in celebrate recovery for sure

2:28
right transparency sure [Music]

2:33
um yeah probably those two would be the first ones that come to mind before some of the words she used sure would and I

2:41
guess in some ways would you describe those words as comfortable or uncomfortable oh uncomfortable yes yes

2:48
that's a good point yeah yeah definitely uncomfortable at least when you're learning you know sure

2:57
yeah I think there's something to be said for learning the benefits of living in a

3:04
vulnerable way and I think so often I I mean I deal with this a lot you know

3:10
because she had her it was funny she had her three C's and I've talked about my three C's Before which are mine yeah uh

3:18
creating a context for change challenging patterns and Cycles which is where vulnerability comes into play MH

3:26
um and then consolidation yeah and so yeah I just those are the way we

3:31
challenge patterns and cycles and I think building or developing vulnerability is a is one of those

3:39
patterns and cycles that we need to challenge because we're able to recognize okay something does need to

3:46
change yeah because why is it that whenever you know emotions come to the

3:51
Forefront of a relationship you know I tend to distance or I tend to be hurt

4:00
and then what do I do from there and it's just kind of that's that's where the vulnerability ends I think so often

4:07
when I ask people you know because I'll talk about vulnerability and when I ask people you

4:13
know uh vulnerab vulnerability is synonymous with like nakedness yeah

4:21
yeah so you know I think it has that context for us and you know and so when

4:27
we think about you know what nakedness is like it's it's definitely a vulnerable thing and you know yeah it's

4:35
just and I recognize there are people who can be

4:40
emotionally naked with us and it's it there is a part of that that just draws

4:46
us to them right it's a yeah a yeah it's a source of connection sure yeah yeah

4:54
cuz it's truly removing what's between us right yeah and it it's it's very simp

5:00
similar or what you shared it's it's authenticity yeah and it's like at that

5:06
point when we are naked there are no masks right and so often in our culture

5:12
and in our relationships you know there's I think there's levels of

5:17
masking if you will MH yeah one of the things that was said in the video talked

5:23
about um you know kind of our desire our our our view of who we are versus who we

5:30
really are and kind of talked about how that that that can never work when you're trying to live in this projection

5:36
of yourself know never work in terms of vulnerability right yeah um and it's

5:42
such a good point because while you got those masks on it's pretty hard to be real yeah is it's by very definition not

5:50
real sure right and I think we all have these moments where I want someone to

5:56
think I'm this when I know that I'm not that I know I'm something

6:03
different and yet I want you to think I want I guess in some ways I need to make

6:09
that a little more simple I want you to think I'm a when I know I'm B and therefore you know it becomes

6:17
difficult to be able to be vulnerable or transparent or authentic in those

6:23
moments yeah yeah and you know she this would be a question for you as a IST

6:30
right as a counselor have you found that it is in any way possible to

6:37
to make Headway in terms of therapy as a patient right okay without vulnerability

6:43
is it possible to yeah I mean I I'll honestly think about that to answer it but I

6:50
would say no because I think that is a part of the beginning steps of going

6:55
into therapy and that's that's where I would come back to that first SE creating a context for change so when

7:03
I'm going into a therapist office and you know and I'll definitely deal with this more so um like with my adolescence

7:11
and so forth because it you know I'm encouraging them because so often you know we tell people what they want to

7:18
hear especially if we've been kind of badgered to a certain degree by we you

7:25
don't mean the counselor you mean just us people people in general my clients you know and you know and especially

7:32
kids it's like you know well they'll come out you know I'll encourage them to be honest with me because we can't

7:38
really I can't really help them unless they are and so I use that word honesty

7:44
but I think that is a part of vulnerability Because unless I really know what's going on including your

7:51
reaction there really isn't uh there isn't that transparency there isn't that

7:57
opportunity for change because I'm just another person that you're interacting with like every other person and that's

8:05
the reason you're coming to see me yeah so yes I would I would dare say without

8:10
that there is not you know the ability to change because and that's and that's

8:15
where I think you know on my part it is about creating safety to be vulnerable

8:22
what do you need from me right what you know if if my tone comes off in a

8:27
certain way you know my body language is if they said it was your beard then what would you do yeah

8:34
we'd have to talk about that what is it about my beard yeah cuz you know that's you need me to

8:40
shave it uh no I don't your beard looks just fine

8:47
Justin no but I understand what you're talking about yeah totally teasing well and yet it could be something like that

8:54
that would keep somebody because I have a perception that to them that could be

9:01
very similar to another incident where you know they were just completely scared yeah yeah and it's going to be

9:07
counter two and we're going to have to we're going to have to relearn you know that it's not the beard

9:15
it's the person behind the beard and so everyone who has a beard isn't a

9:20
terrible nasty person who's going to hurt me right so yeah that's yeah yeah I

9:27
appreciate the question though yeah yeah so as we're as we're thinking about the

9:33
uh the the segment if you will what uh

9:38
would you care to share the uh the other three C's that beray shared you remember

9:43
those yeah I remember them and that I'm looking at my notes I wrote down that's does that count oh of course yes uh she

9:50
talked about courage and compassion and connection and um I think they were kind

9:55
of steps right courage translates you know well and what she described courage

10:02
do you remember how she described it she kind of yeah yeah it was it was basically in uh in the Old English it

10:08
came in as c as the word but it had to do with a wholeheartedness yeah and it's

10:14
and that's she opposed it to bravery or defined it differently than bravery

10:20
because it isn't just what I'm doing it's about who I am and what I bring and I bring a

10:26
wholeheartedness and it's and it because bravery can be another mask as I see it

10:31
but courage is the ability to bring who I am and my fullness

10:37
thereof and you know and we can we can think of every great movie you know that

10:42
that's what comes to mind for me where I think about bravery but then I think about you know those people who really

10:49
had courage and part of that is just bringing who they are you know those Braveheart moments you know basically

10:57
yeah it's like you can leave if you want yeah but you know we're here right now

11:03
and now's the opportunity and if you bring all you are yeah you know I just

11:08
yeah that's what I think that's the part of vulnerability courage connection you

11:15
know I'll bring I'll bring it back to God you know because that's that's all

11:21
he desires from us is the vulnerability to say hey God this is all

11:27
that I am and and strengths and weaknesses I give it to you to use and I think that's part of

11:35
that I wouldn't necessarily um H shuck

11:40
Wild at Heart guy John Elders you know he he would call that like a sacred sacred romance type thing you know where

11:47
there's this desire for connection and I think that's a part of it yeah

11:54
absolutely uh man I had a train of thought I apologize no don't don't apologize um I

12:02
think before we get to those three C's she was essentially saying you know vulnerability is kind of the key right

12:09
sure if I recall but she was saying there's one thing that will prevent using that key do you remember what that

12:15
was yeah it was shame yeah shame yeah and so I think you know especially being involved with recovery

12:23
for so many years like sure shame is in my opinion number one enemy not the

12:30
addiction sure now you know there there's some caveats there right like if you're in active

12:37
addiction and you want to stop active addiction then the first thing you have to do is stop right sure so you know and

12:43
then work on shame but the point is um shame will keep bringing you back to it

12:49
it will draw you back into previous habits and what shame will tell you you're not good enough for the change that you're trying to get to you know

12:57
yeah um and a big part of Shame is lack of vulnerability which which is so

13:02
counterintuitive yeah when you tell people you want to get rid of that we'll start talking about the stuff you don't want people to know exactly what yeah

13:10
you know what was that quote she said about the shame Yeah the more you talk

13:16
about it the less you have it that's right so nobody wants to have it but the less you have you talk about it the more

13:21
you have it and the interesting part for me in that is there is a correlation

13:27
between shame and addiction if you will yeah and and

13:35
conversely there is less the more a person I want to separate guilt and

13:41
shame I know we've done it probably before but basically to um describe

13:48
shame you know if we're going to describe it shame basically tells us I am bad MH okay guilt says I did

13:56
something bad MH so there's a correlation between shame and substance

14:02
abuse type thing or addiction addictive behaviors and there's the opposite correlation between guilt and those

14:09
addictive behaviors so the more I understand that I recognize what I've done and what I've Hur and I'm able to

14:16
recognize that I have less tendency towards addictive behavior but the more I hold on to that shame the more

14:23
tendency I have towards addictive behavior and I think that's that's a that's a neat part when you and think

14:29
about it not neat in a sense you can deconstruct it that way because what happens is and I think what she the word

14:36
she used uh connecting with shame is worthiness so when I can recognize that

14:44
you know it's not necessarily me being perfect but me being whole you know what

14:50
I'm saying I don't have to have it all together in our culture I think there is this I'm going to go right straight to

14:55
Facebook I don't mean to but you know it it gives it gives that perception of perfection right you know what I mean I

15:03
just I heard a guy the other day he was talking about man I realized how terrible my Christmas was because I

15:09
didn't go on a ski vacation I didn't go hunting big game animals you know it's like I had a terrible Christmas you know

15:15
but in but that's only because everybody's putting forth this perfect type Dynamic and the re the the

15:23
wholeness isn't there the authenticity isn't there of the rest of the life yeah

15:28
that's where I I really like that that worthiness and I think you know for me that comes back to being able to be

15:36
honest with God and recognize okay yeah I make mistakes but at the and I sin and

15:43
I have guilt you know but at the same time because of who God is he says I'm

15:50
worthy yeah and I think so often you know in our in our family systems in our

15:57
you know our childhood we have these relationships one or two specifically

16:04
that we got the impression that we were terrible we were bad I'm bad that shame

16:10
Dynamic was translated some way and it's very difficult to get on the other side

16:16
of that once it becomes you know a a habit a pattern a cycle that kind of thing yeah in you know one of CV's

16:23
quotes is you can't or it might have actually been him quoting Einstein but you can't solve a problem from the same place you entered it right you have to

16:29
be a level above the problem to be able to solve it and when youw up in an environment where you didn't feel

16:36
worthy you're not typically you're going to need some help sure which is going to require some vulnerability you know it's

16:42
going to require people to speak into your life to speak above that situation of your unworthiness to say no look

16:48
here's why that's not true um I also want to tie back to the vulnerability

16:54
and shame thing a little bit sure and kind of uh call back all the way back to our conversation about integrity right

17:01
so Integrity is aligning who you want to be with who you are sure essentially is

17:06
a really basic version of it and what happens is in most addictions is it

17:11
removes you further and further from who you want to be sure does that make sense yeah which means your integrity is dis

17:18
disintegrating you know the further who you are gets from who you want to be I don't want to be someone who steals from

17:23
my mom for drug money right well it started is I don't want to be someone who does drugs this much and then it

17:30
became you know I don't want to be someone who's addicted to drugs and then it became you know I don't want to be someone who treats my friends terrible

17:36
because I have to go take care of my addiction like I get out of situation and then it becomes I don't want to be

17:41
someone who steals from my mom for drug money Etc and your your integrity is disintegrating right and um I think

17:48
that's so important to understand that shame is a natural byproduct of

17:54
addiction it's a natural byproduct of things that are counter to who we want to be be so now if you're someone who's

18:00
like you know my my greatest ambition in life is to be a drug addict I mean maybe you wouldn't have much shame right and

18:07
there's probably people out there with a littleit bit of Disconnect because of whatever psychological abuse or

18:13
something that that's kind of like you know this is good enough for me and I have no problem with this and they probably don't have much shame in that

18:19
world you know that there might be there might be that but it's very much going

18:25
to be the minority the the majority is going to be the further ad you are the greater the Heap of shame in your life

18:31
because your integrity is disintegrated you know what I mean yeah and I I as you shared that the the third part of the

18:38
hery the the connection part kind of comes to mind for me because in reality

18:45
um in order for me to get the things that I think I want I would say you have

18:51
to have connection yeah with someone you follow me so if if I am just

18:58
meaningful things yes but at the same time if I need something from you I may

19:04
have to put on a mask to get what I want from you to get what I want yeah you

19:10
know whether it's you know stealing from other people you know bringing them close enough to get close enough to steal from them to get what I want you

19:18
know and I was thinking about that in that you know the the aspect of connection because that kind of

19:24
connection is not it's all about I would I'm trying to think of a a good word to

19:32
um describe something that's not Health it's use it's using people that's that's

19:38
what I wanted you know and and I think that's the difficult part because if

19:43
we're if we're going to be vulnerable some people at times may even use us MH

19:50
yeah so being able to say you know okay yeah and and that being part of

19:55
connection I think that's a that's where I like just yeah still thinking about much of that as far as

20:01
that connection and how we utilize or create Connection in such a way that can

20:09
be reciprocal yeah whereas I think when we when we look at it for what it is

20:16
about me we're not concerned about the reciprocal nature of connection right and that connection becomes tenuous at

20:22
best right yes cuz as you use people the less connected they desire to be with

20:28
you and the less desire you are to be with them because there's that shame blocking

20:33
that relationship now too right when you steal from your mom do you want to go home you know for Sunday brunch yeah

20:39
probably not right you probably and then that's that's that's just your mom that

20:45
doesn't you know count the rest of your family you know and that because if you're not there for Sunday brunch

20:51
you're likely not connecting with other people in your family and that kind of thing yeah yeah

20:57
absolutely yeah because I and I that's way where the the second SE was that compassion I think we

21:03
have less compassion for people as we become used as well so I I think this

21:10
it's it's neat to see you know how all of those come together affecting

21:15
vulnerability and I and I think when we get I like coming back to the other seat

21:21
when we get vulnerability right that becomes a source of support MH because

21:28
we were sharing earlier that person who's okay being naked it's like they can share that nakedness and we can say

21:35
okay wow that must have really hurt or when I said that that must have hurt your feelings now I'm going to be

21:41
mindful of not saying things that hurt your feelings you know because that person was vulnerable and shared what

21:48
hurt I'm going to likely come back with a source of support and I think that's the power of vulnerability but it's as

21:55
humans I Think It's just tough to be able to hold that in a in a way that's

22:02
saying okay here I am but unless we are that authentic wholehearted

22:09
person go ahead you know you mentioned it's tough and it is tough right to stay

22:15
vulnerable to vulnerable enough to present your real self in most circumstances that's tough sure right

22:22
sure what's tougher though is not doing that sure but it's not more intuitive

22:27
it's more intuitive to to to not be vulnerable to kind of present that mask but the long-term results are always

22:34
that life is going to be tougher when you don't when you are not vulnerable and you are not presenting who you truly

22:42
are sure because maintaining a mask is difficult and is a struggle and even

22:48
when you do maintain a mask it can cause again going back to Integrity it can

22:53
that itself can start to disintegrate your integrity because when you're maintaining a mass it's because you know

22:59
you're not being that mask and that's what you want other people to see sure so again you're not aligning those

23:05
things and you're not moving towards being that person you're just putting that up knowing that I can't be that

23:11
person so I have to present it to other people you know what I mean sure versus letting that mask slip away and say this

23:17
is who I really am and I'm going to I want to work towards being that version of myself you know and actually having

23:23
to do the work sure instead of assuming people can't see who you really are they just see that Mas version you know yeah

23:30
and she also talked about you know the compassion C uh she basically described it such that if you

23:39
can't um I I guess I'm going to use the word forgive but but if you can't accept who you are mhm and you're continually

23:46
putting up that mask the chances that you can accept others how they are is much lower right your chances are very

23:53
low that you can accept others when you can't accept yourself sure and the inverse is beautifully true right the

24:00
more you're able to accept who you are in your imperfection that I'm whole despite needing Improvement or despite

24:06
not being perfect I'm still whole you can look at others and say that person is also whole and they have struggles is

24:13
just like me and there and breathes a level of compassion for others when you

24:19
but it starts with you sure right I would say that's a source of empathy yeah that would be the foundation of

24:25
empathy is this ability that I have to be able to say okay I'm like you you're like me and we can

24:32
hold one another accountable and yet we there's still an acceptance of one

24:37
another because I recognize that I make mistakes too we all stumble in many ways

24:43
and when when I'm able to recognize that oh I Stumble in this way and really just

24:51
because you're stumbling in a way that I might see myself a little more put together yeah that doesn't mean that I

24:58
don't stumble yeah you know and I think that's that's where we can get it mixed up at times is I I just want to hang

25:05
around people that only stumble the same way I do yeah cuz then I feel better about myself but in reality I'm creating

25:12
connection with other people who are just affirming my stumbling that's right and ironically I I've recently read an

25:20
article that talked about um if you look hard enough the people who are most

25:25
offended at things are often those things things are the things they dislike about themselves the most sure

25:32
so then you have that going on right um and I I along that line and you shared

25:39
on the addiction I like what she shared about numbing as well yeah because because you know and I it's it's

25:46
interesting because when we think about it you know we do want to kind of segment Our Lives you know and it's like

25:52
well I just don't want to I don't want to be sad so I tend to suppress my

25:58
sadness or I tend to do things that avoid my sadness but in reality I am

26:04
suppressing all emotion to the degree that I suppress any emotion yeah she said you can't selectively numb emotions

26:11
that's exactly right in that context of we want to suppress the vulnerability the part that makes us embarrassed or

26:18
gives us pain or yeah and therefore we numb yeah and I it was interesting I was having conversation the other day um and

26:25
she mentioned it as well you know we numb with different things you know it can be substance it can be you know but

26:32
the interesting part is um she talked about the American cohort um America

26:38
consumes 85% of all anti-depressants and anti-anxiety

26:45
anxiety medication 85% wow is consumed in the world is consumed by

26:52
America the American dream mark well and that's and it would it also reminded me

26:58
when she was talking about indebtedness obesity you know all these things that we use to numb yeah because we can't we

27:06
can't just be authentic and we can't feel and I'm not saying you know you can't be in debt but at the same time if

27:13
we're just trying to if we're doing these things just to numb then we just go further and further or a lot of those

27:19
things I mean are chicken egg too right like sometimes we use those things to numb and sometimes by using those you

27:25
know I mean sure and again we talked about addiction can numb us right sure so it can go both ways too where you

27:32
know we use food to numb our emotions or vice versa right uh we use food and therefore our emotions become numb sure

27:40
no I hear you yeah a source versus an outcome yeah yeah yeah yeah and I was

27:45
and I I think you know that's that's a you know a great point when it comes to

27:50
because you know even our indebtedness can to a degree keep us

27:56
from connection because you know I owe I owe therefore off to work I go you know

28:02
type thing but but yes that you know and that's

28:09
where I was thinking about it in in the context of you know things that cre keep

28:14
us from connection yeah and I I appreciated that numbness the way she

28:19
shared it in that yeah the the other thing about kind of the American dream or kind of the the way it is right now

28:26
is that things are so good and therefore it kind of creates an expectation that things are good for you

28:33
because they're you know just like it creates this this expectation that we have to be put together act put together

28:39
because we don't have a reason not to be and I feel like you know whether it's other countries you know third world

28:45
countries or it's previous years of our history you know previous centuries of

28:51
our history where the struggle was real right and when you and I were out

28:56
fighting whoever right like the French Revolution or whatever I don't know the the the the English in the revolution

29:02
you and I were fighting alongside each other you and I saw each other's weaknesses and because we didn't want to

29:10
die we would cover for each other's weaknesses like there was a requirement or not even a requirement a reality of

29:16
vulnerability in struggles sure right where there's not enough time to hide

29:22
that struggle because or hide that vulnerability because I'm too busy focused on this struggle whatever

29:28
whatever the struggle it is getting food on my plate you know fighting the Nazis whatever sure whatever the that struggle

29:34
is and right now we're we're very comfortable and so it leaves all of our attention on the existential things and

29:40
makes us think about how we should be perfect and we're not and I need to hide that from my the Joneses my neighbors

29:46
right like right so that I can keep up with appearances and it's just it's no wonder that we are one of the large you

29:54
know the largest consumers of anti-depressants and those things right when when we're left to our own you know

30:00
thoughts and struggles and sure yeah and the struggle is real whether there's an ex you know external struggle or the

30:07
existential one but we uh we don't feel like we can talk about the the

30:12
existential one and that's a big problem in America and in the world well and I think I think the the great point to

30:19
what you're saying is when I view myself from a Perfection standpoint okay if I'm

30:27
to be perfect then I have to blame because there's a reason there's a

30:33
reason why and that's the reason right because you don't know that I am perfect

30:39
but so if you're thinking I'm not perfect I need to convey to you the reason why you're seeing that part of me

30:46
it's because of that other person it's because I have to do this you follow me

30:52
but if we can and and then I think that's as she alluded to it in the the segment as well you know

30:58
politics you know if we're at this point where you know I got it all figured out

31:03
and you're dumb and wrong well then here's the blame yep and I and I think

31:09
that's where you know the the aspect of discourse you know the ability to say

31:15
okay here's where I'm at here's where you're at what can we do about this kind of like you were sharing about the the

31:20
two soldiers fighting side by side you know it's like okay I'm I'm wounded in

31:26
this way yeah how can you know there is a vulnerability how can I and I need your

31:32
support in this way cuz I'm wounded mhm and we're all wounded but yet if I'm more concerned

31:40
about the fact that you're messy because you're wounded and I'm perfect so

31:45
therefore I'm not I need to distance myself from you versus if I'm able to say okay you're you're your arm hurts

31:53
okay but my leg hurts can we work together in such a way that says yeah we're both getting out of this or we're

31:59
both yeah you know committing to this regardless

32:04
yeah yeah and going back a little bit to the compassion

32:10
conversation um you know I basically said it starts with us right it starts

32:15
inside that's you know compassion starts there um but I'm not sure that's even true because again you can't solve a

32:21
problem from the place you entered it so if you don't have compassion it's it's not as simple as to say we just have

32:27
compassion sure right and um you know I'm just thinking about in the context of recovery and hearing other people's

32:34
stories how that can breathe compassion into me into us right as we hear other

32:42
people's stories and go wow they had it hard maybe harder than I had it you know

32:47
and it gives us a sense of compassion for that person which in turn can start

32:53
to breathe compassion into myself for myself right like sure

32:58
um seeing that change can happen you know despite the struggles and and being

33:03
able to relate to the struggles and being able to also then relate to change might be possible for me as well you

33:10
know and I I I don't know I just wanted to kind of come back to that to just say I think it's easy to say it starts with

33:16
you I don't think practically it's that simple I think practically again it does require you to go to a position higher

33:24
than you were you know kind of stepping above the problem and that's I I I I see

33:30
hearing other people's stories as a way to do that as a way to elevate above

33:35
your current understanding of things yeah is to be able to see life through other people's eyes from their

33:41
vulnerability sure you know and I think what you're describing is the power of a group dynamic it doesn't have to be a

33:47
group but you know it can be a you know a diad you know just two people but at the same time I think there is a power

33:55
in that group because I see it in multiple ways and I you know I'm mindful

34:01
as you know we'll do marriage classes and so forth and it's and it's interesting to see that uh that deep

34:08
breath that you know people take when it's like oh your marriage has problems

34:14
too you know cuz it's like there is this perception that we're the only ones that

34:20
are screwed up our relationship is the only one that's this messy and when we're able to interact in that group and

34:27
and we create that connection and we have compassion for each other and it takes a level of courage to step into

34:33
that group then that's when I'm learning you know about empathy and vulnerability

34:38
and it's like it is okay and I think so often in couples you know it's easy to

34:45
get stuck in that aspect of well I change but you have to do this you know

34:53
yeah and it's like no no one wants to go first yeah cuz there's a fear of

34:59
vulnerability right in that context of no one wants to go first there's a fear that if I let down my guard and say I'm

35:07
sorry you won't and I'll be stuck carrying the burden right I'll be whatever this thing is between us now

35:14
I'll have to carry it and next time something similar happens now I have to carry double the burden because I

35:20
apologize and so now you can naturally blame you know so there there's fear that goes into that because what happens

35:28
is if I'm vulnerable for to towards you and it doesn't come back as support mhm

35:34
you know then because that's what we're talking about is cycles and patterns so if I'm challenging some of those cycles

35:41
and patterns and I'm actually being vulnerable and it head doesn't come back as support I'm far less likely to be

35:47
vulnerable so what should you do in that case well you have to recognize that it's part of a process of change yeah

35:54
you know and and that the support isn't that can't be your Source yeah right

36:00
yeah it's that's very fair um because ultimately we have to recognize we we're

36:06
we're challenging patterns and cycles and to challenge something I have to

36:12
come forward to a certain degree and be able to say this is what I see and this

36:18
is what happens and that and I think people that do that

36:23
well um communicate in a way that doesn't convey

36:29
blame you know cuz so often if we want to use the word you in a statement we're

36:34
going to are already elicit some defensiveness which is going to kind of

36:40
create blame because we're just lobbing at each other but yeah if we can come forward and I can say when I'm

36:47
noticing that when this happens I do this we're identifying a cycle and a

36:55
pattern and in that process process this happens next I see it this way how how

37:01
do you see that happening you know because at that point I'm not saying you

37:06
did this and it's all your fault I'm willing to say I

37:12
felt disappointed right when I stated you know I shared that I would like to

37:18
do this and there was no response yeah cuz you're taking responsibility for

37:23
your own feelings and that yes yeah I mean if I say Mark you made me offended

37:29
that's saying the responsibility is on you to fix that that's correct if they say Mark when you said that I felt

37:35
offended there's an implicit understanding that that you know it's on me to deal with that sure I think

37:41
depending on the words you use and how you know the context I typically like to lead with that emotional part that I'm

37:47
owning you know and try to avoid the you and our Communications but yeah that's

37:52
that's the basis for it is the ability to identify that I felt something

38:02
felt and that's uh that's also a big reason why you know in Celebrate Recovery we have what we call open share

38:08
groups and it's just a support an environment for support you know gender specific support groups where um there's

38:15
not a rule as to what to say as in you can kind of talk about whatever you want

38:21
but there are guidelines as to how it's set sure exactly you know and one of the things we talk about is uh there's you

38:28
know I forget which one is tied to but we basically encourage them not to use statements like you or we but inste use

38:35
statements like I and me exactly and so that it reforms your thoughts around

38:40
your struggles into something that you have to take responsibility for right cuz we're not no we're not interested in

38:47
your wife's flaws right that's that's not what that support Circle environment

38:52
is for yep you know um so if you can reframe that conversation about your

38:57
wife's flaws in a way that is about you then okay now now we can get somewhere

39:02
now we can have support for each other we can build each other up we can U kind of be those two soldiers on the sideline

39:09
you know I'll cover for your broken foot and you cover for my broken arm kind of thing but if it's all their fault their

39:15
fault their fault you know it's if I can say I lost control when my wife said

39:21
something to me versus my wife said something to me and therefore I did you know that it's it's it's it's the

39:29
difference of blame versus well almost shame and guilt y you know I am

39:34
admitting when I use I I did something I felt something and I'm accepting

39:39
responsibility for that and going back to our our word vulnerability when you

39:44
do that you mark in the circle and I'm in that circle with you I go oh that's a

39:50
reframing of how I think about it when my wife makes me lose control right like

39:55
she she does her terrible thing she does and it I that's not my fault when you say it is my fault I lost control I have

40:04
to rethink it and go and the cool thing about that environment is that you're not preaching at me you're not saying

40:11
you know it's your fault you lost control you should you're saying it you're talking about exactly you're not

40:18
talking to me you are talking about yourself and it leaves me free to I

40:23
should say yeah leave prevents me from having to put up my defenses or guard my own thoughts from what you're trying to

40:29
tell me no it's not my fault because if she did it's like no you're not you're

40:35
not talking at me sure you know and I think that's uh just a little plug for

40:40
any kind of support environment like that where you're able to share about your own experiences in a vulnerable way

40:47
sure um encouraging people to get involved in environments like that whether it's a small group that's

40:52
particularly vulnerable you know at your church um or uh counseling is great as

40:59
well although it's not that same vulnerable Circle right but I think there's aspects to it um well I think

41:06
that's where if I may to build on that that's where I like the family uh family counseling or group because it is we are

41:14
able to sit down thank you we are able to sit down and I'm actually in some

41:20
ways able to hear you for the first time as we identify you know these patterns

41:26
and cycles that are going on that so often we are just in the midst of reacting to yes but when we're able to

41:33
slow it down and you know because because there is a third person in the room you know with a couple you know

41:41
then we're able to slow it down it's like oh I get it so you're not just

41:46
being mean because you like being mean your meanness or what you're saying is a

41:51
reaction is part of a cycle and pattern of the way that I don't necessar listen

41:57
to you right so when I ignore you you need to get louder yep because I'm not

42:05
hearing I'm not remembering what you're saying you know I'm not valuing what you say so of course our human response is

42:12
well and I have to get louder yeah I have to holler I have to scream it's like no it's just a part of that cycle

42:19
and pattern and it's kind of a boiling water thing right where the water is getting warmer and warmer and we're in

42:25
it we don't realize the Frog you know at some point we're screaming and yelling and you think about the neighbor

42:32
walking by and you go holy crap I'm a monster you know like I'm I'm a I'm a

42:38
boiling frog at this point and um I can I say that from my own personal

42:43
experience of just like arguments with Megan and conver you know over the years and learning like if someone overhears

42:50
what I'm saying and how I'm saying it I'm so ashamed but but wasn't you talked

42:57
about the the benefit of that group counseling or the opportunity to hear

43:02
others speak or hear you know hear your spouse speak in front of a neutral party sure and you naturally have to meter

43:08
your response because you're not going to do your typical pattern or it's like instinctual you know it sounds like a

43:14
monster right sure and that's a that's a really great first step is be able to

43:20
get in that environment and start to meter how you respond and and have to choose better words sure but it's a

43:26
whole another thing for me there's a few times where I did like I did see that oh

43:32
someone was overhearing or sure and that was like kind of shocked it into my

43:37
system like your words are not good yeah there's no justifying these words there's no justifying this tone because

43:44
if you're embarrassed if someone hears that you know that if you're if you you looking at that Integrity picture right

43:51
the person you want to be is someone who doesn't you know someone walking by doesn't think you're a monster well then

43:56
I can't allow that to continue and I have to start doing the work and that you know that's a life's work honestly

44:03
cuz I mean a relationship that close you're always going to be rubbing each other you know good or bad right um and

44:11
I I'll I'll say I think I'm way better at that there's very few times where I'm like you know I think I would be embarrassed by what but that took a lot

44:18
of work and doubt I say all that to say like that environment where you can hear

44:24
how you would have responded but no you can't can be really healthy to think

44:30
about how should I handle this because Mark's listening while I talk to my wife

44:36
and I don't know there's something and then now like you said that going back to that loudness thing well now she

44:43
doesn't need to increase the volume right you know and vice versa like she's going to meter what she has to say

44:49
because marks listen and and I think that's when you know we're we're growing in that vulnerability cuz I I would tan

44:57
them out you know vulnerability is almost like softness you know I'm able to be soft with you I don't have to be

45:04
harsh I don't have to be you know critical I'm not being critical I'm

45:10
being hey can you do do you see this the same way I do and it's interesting you bring a point because I just had to you

45:17
know we talked about this with a a couple you know like to the degree that the guy gained awareness if someone else

45:26
was talk talking to my wife the way that I'm talking with her oh it's a you know I I I can't

45:36
necessarily repeat what he said but you know he when he gained that awareness it's like you know yeah you know yeah

45:43
done something to that person yeah and yet he started to realize that that's

45:49
what he's doing to his wife on a daily basis so yeah it's a it's a it's when

45:55
we're able to see that way yeah that's such an important word see because we

46:02
don't see it like and and you you can't start till you start down this road of

46:08
vulnerability you know because it unlocks more vulnerability and continues that path of softness as you said so so

46:16
as a uh as a disclaimer uh don't enter the road the

46:22
path towards vulnerability lightly cuz I like what you just shared in that context you know yeah the more

46:29
vulnerable we become the more vulnerable we are you or the more vulnerable you are the more vulnerable we can become

46:35
yeah and I think you know that's that's the that's the difficult part when I

46:42
have been hurt deeply because I I see it so often you

46:48
know as my desire is to disengage from many things most things

46:55
depending on that level of hurt because all I want to do is numb so

47:00
therefore no I don't want to enter into another relationship it doesn't even have to be another romantic relationship

47:06
I don't want anything to do with relationship and I think you know that's where and you know it's interesting

47:13
especially when we can recognize that I think as adolescence I I'll be honest

47:19
Lizzy was the one that kind of shared this with us you know and is I recognize you know she the video yeah the video

47:25
she you know in college there's a lot of you know connection and disconnection and you know and romantic relation you

47:33
know and and of course she sees it you know and I I just really appreciated the

47:38
the dynamic of being able to say yeah okay I'm going to recognize at this

47:44
point in my life that vulnerability is a part of life and in order to be healthy

47:51
I have to be able to connect and I and yet I still have to be able to

47:57
be aware kind of a guard your heart type thing that basically says okay I'm gonna

48:04
I'm going to put some vulnerability out there you know from a trust Dynamic I'm

48:10
going to put a little bit out there just to see what you do with it yeah because I think that is you know I think that

48:18
can be countercultural too I'm I'm I can be so vulnerable that I'm just all in

48:23
with all of me and I'm I'm actually kind of being irresponsible yeah so I want to

48:30
you know as we're talking about this vulnerability I I want to recognize we're talking about this within the

48:36
context of healthy relationship goes back to the context for change if you're trying to do I

48:42
think I don't want to use your season correctly so tell me if I get it right but basically if you're trying to

48:48
produce change in in a context that's unhealthy and it's not a context that's healthy for change it's your the same

48:55
context it's always been and but you're you know you're trying to like dump all of this vulnerability out into this

49:03
thing uh there's a good chance that vulnerability could turn into leverage

49:09
sure for that environment like if it's an unhealthy environment and you certainly don't want that right isn't

49:14
that yeah and that's why the three C's are connected cuz that first C is about safety yeah so I was just going back to

49:21
your tread lightly I was going back to that because if you're gonna enter this

49:27
process and it is a process vulnerability it doesn't stop exactly it's a pathway yes yes if you're going

49:34
to start down that pathway you need to do it in a safe way you need to do it in a proper context for change where change

49:41
can happen safely right exactly and then but still even in that so often that

49:47
safety is defined by me and where I came from and so to challenge that sometimes

49:54
I have to get all the way down to the third see which is consolidation and that's a fancy way of saying learning so

50:01
sometimes what I've learned initially in my family system is safe may not necessarily be safe you know if I've

50:08
learned alcoholism is safe and that's a good way to numb and avoid that's going

50:13
to create chall you know I'm going to have to challenge some of those patterns and cycles and then I'm going to get to the third C which is consolidation and I

50:20
have to learn that okay what I viewed as safety really may not be safe for me

50:27
so I think you know that's where and each and each C is able to connect to

50:34
the next one or you know I'm able to go back so if I start challenging patterns in cycles and we're becoming vulnerable

50:42
but the wheels fall off I have to go back to the other SE and creating a context for change which is about safety

50:49
okay we're good are you you know I want to because once we start challenging

50:54
some of this stuff it's easy to become reactive mhm and then if it becomes reactive then we have to go back mhm

51:02
because you know there's no nobody's nobody's going to change nobody's going to be vulnerable to if there's not a

51:08
certain level of safety from my perspective yeah yeah if you think about too when it

51:15
comes to I me I think it's good to talk about the the qual danger of vulnerability at

51:22
the same time we're talking about the value of it because you yes I think it's important to careful with especially as you learn but

51:29
you can think of you know probably some of the people who struggle the most with

51:35
vulnerability there's a good chance that there was an effort at it at some point that got met with you know that

51:42
vulnerability was smashed yep right and you know someone took that vulnerability

51:47
and ran with it and and um leveraged it or you know what I mean sure and I and

51:53
in some ways it kind of brings to mind what you share about the level up

51:59
dynamic because I think there is a aspect where if I am at a certain point

52:05
or let's just let's just say um I'm at a a certain socioeconomic level um I'm

52:12
going to have a little more room to be vulnerable to people who may use me and I'm still going to be okay got some

52:19
cushion yeah I do have some cushion and I think you know it's it's when we're at the same level you know that it becomes

52:27
difficult and I and I have no issues with people being cautious because I think it does I think

52:34
whether a person is trustworthy or to the degree a person is trustworthy affects my ability and if I'm able to

52:40
move that relationship along slowly I'm actually able to Define okay yes I can

52:47
be vulnerable based on your response but I'm not necessarily being irresponsible

52:54
and just saying hey I'm going to give all of this to you and you do with it as you see fit and like I say I'm willing

53:01
to wrestle with that as a as a personal Viewpoint you know and you can challenge me on that or anything you know if it if

53:08
it seems like it's counter to vulnerability but at the same time I think there is a vulnerability but I'm

53:14
also being a steward yeah yeah yeah it's wisdom

53:19
right I have to uh yeah I'm okay with it being wisdom but I'm also able to say

53:25
okay yeah if you're want to challenge part of that I'm willing to talk about that Challen challenge What specifically

53:32
my viewpoint my specific viewpoint on how we can be vulnerable and still be

53:39
cautious yeah no I think I agree with that Viewpoint so it's going to be hard for me to challenge it you know I think

53:48
there's yeah I mean we started out really trying to talk about the value of a vulner vulnerability and we this is

53:55
what this episode is about about at the same time I think you and I both recognize the danger of vulnerability in

54:01
the wrong contexts and even in the wrong mindset or like if your goal is well if

54:08
I'm vulnerable it'll fix everything again you're going to be Woo you're going to find out some

54:15
vulnerability uh does not fix anything if anything it can make things worse

54:20
right depending on again the context the context and that's that's the that's the part that I wanted to create

54:27
I wanted to create a caution to say hey if you're entering into this it's going

54:32
to be difficult because you're going to be more vulnerable but at the same time do it in a way that's safe mhm because

54:39
otherwise you're just hurting yourself and that kind of thing and I would say the most important aspect to having a

54:45
safe environment is having you know someone someone's that is already further down the journey sure who are

54:53
able to model it for you and when you do it are able to kind of commend it and encourage it and not stomp on it you

55:00
know and that can be a counselor right that that's I I would encourage

55:05
counseling if if you're unable to be vulnerable that's a great I think good step um but also you know Finding

55:13
environments I mean we talk about Celebrate Recovery a lot and there's a reason for that it is

55:19
a in my opinion NE nearly perfect context for change right because we're

55:26
we're creating an environment that is safe and that is not judgmental and that accepts and that simply demonstrates

55:33
here's how it looks in my life and here's how it looks in your life and there's you know what I mean yeah uh so

55:39
I would encourage something like that but support groups people who are working on their own vulnerabilities in

55:45
front of you and you can do the same thing um but definitely I think it's important to seek out opportunities and

55:51
and relationships where vulnerability is encouraged and modeled and and

55:56
reciprocated sure right yeah I think uh I think as you were sharing uh

56:02
vulnerability is a worthy gift yes it's worth worth pursuing and I think it is a

56:10
gift that we have to be able to give to others and like all good gifts they're reciprocal MH and so when as you were

56:17
sharing there it's like yeah it's it's a gift to be able to be vulnerable in a

56:23
situation that I can understand you know vulnerability really is and it's safe to

56:28
do so so yeah appreciate you sharing Justin well that's how we see it

56:33
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