Justin:

Thumbs up, let’s do this.

Mark:

Let’s do this. Good morning, Justin.

Justin:

Good morning, Mr. Mark. How are you?

Mark:

Uh, I am well. I am blessed. Just just enjoying morning. Lizzie turns twenty-one today.

Justin:

Twenty-one today. Twenty one. When you hear this, wish her happy birthday and she’ll be like, what? Because it’ll be some weeks later.

Mark:

Exactly But yeah.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Just uh

Justin:

twenty-one. Yeah.

Mark:

Just sitting in the blessing of uh twenty-one years ago. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And and you can’t tell, maybe you can hear it in his voice, but Mark got a beard trim and a haircut, so he he sounds a little fresher.

Mark:

I feel stronger even Yeah.

Justin:

Yes. You look stronger and fresher for sure.

Mark:

Well thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. I’m just sitting up a little taller this morning. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And you’re also kinda Seems like a little excited to talk about this talk.

Mark:

I am. I am. It’s uh as we as I’ve wrestled, thought, read, you know, the stuff we try to do. uh to uh promote it’s I’ve I’ve grown in my fear of the Lord in that awe sense in that process of being fearfully and wonderfully made. It’s just kind of a It’s a it’s a it’s been a neat overwhelming kinda yeah from a information and yeah it’s just been really neat Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt

Justin:

and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. And what is this topic we’re gonna talk about? Well, because I said one thing and you said You sure we’re not talking about this other thing?

Mark:

I’m gonna tell you right now, Justin, I’m gonna need your help this morning. Otherwise we might end up in the tall weeds, because like you say, we’re uh What was it what was the one you sa you were talking about?

Justin:

Neural pathways.

Mark:

Neural pathways, correct.

Justin:

Yeah. And I’m also curious too if you’ve ‘Cause I brought this up to you, said I think we should talk about this. But I didn’t really think about it in terms of whether it’s a polarizing topic or not. ‘Cause I mean it’s not exactly but

Mark:

Oh it is. It is very polarizing. Ah

Justin:

right.

Mark:

Right. Within our scientific community it becomes very polarizing.

Justin:

All right. Well that’s what we’re going with then. This is a very polarizing topic in our scientific community. Tune in.

Mark:

Yes. But it’s interesting because um uh as you as we talk about neuropathways, I uh I view neuropathways kind of like a um Used to c used to say the word creek, but it is a creek. I used to call it creek. That’s what it was. Yeah, it’s kind of like a creek.

Justin:

But it’s not a crook.

Mark:

It’s not a crook. That’s right.

Justin:

And I am not a crook. That’s a really old school joke.

Mark:

It is, but uh it’s not a crick, but it’s a creek. Like that goes through and and it flows.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And it has a purpose. I don’t know what that was, but it it has a purpose. And until We either change that flow by doing something different, or we experience trauma which may overflow that bed, okay, we it becomes that’s that’s kind of the a pathway, just like a path in the in through the grass.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

It it becomes the way that our um like I say, there’s a there’s electromagnetic process, you know, that That’s where it flows.

Justin:

So essentially that’s the the metaphor for neuropathways, right? It’s that creek in our brain that kind of flows where it’s gonna flow. without interruption it will continue right like that. Yes.

Mark:

Yes. Because it has a purpose. And if that purpose changes or if I change my thoughts regarding that purpose then that’s when that process changes. And changing my thoughts, okay Is what we’re talking about as far as neuroplasticity. And that’s our brain’s ability to be malleable. And that’s where it comes back to from a science perspective, there was the the process that our brain is above our body. In other words, our we can’t think anything differently than what our brain was pre-programmed to do. Does that make sense?

Justin:

That’s the that’s a viewpoint you’re saying?

Mark:

That is a viewpoint. That’s a f that’s a polarizing viewpoint that basically our brain we are born and our brain is pre-wired so therefore it minimizes or even can um negate free will mm-hmm

Justin:

so it’s That’s like the nature side of nature versus nurture.

Mark:

To a degree, yes. Yes.

Justin:

Maybe. Okay.

Mark:

Yes. Because what happens is I don’t really have a choice. Mm-hmm. But if we’re able to recognize free will on the other side of that process is My thoughts matter. And that’s where that’s where epigenetics comes into play.

Justin:

All right, let’s hear the definition of that one. It’s not etymology because we covered that one a few weeks ago.

Mark:

That’s right. But epa

Justin:

epicymology of ep to epig how do I say it?

Mark:

Epigenetics.

Justin:

Epigenetics.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Let’s have it.

Mark:

Epigenetics, okay. Epa meaning the top or above. Okay. Like a epidermis, that’s the top layer or skin. Okay. So epigenetics is that my thoughts or my mind is above my brain. Okay? Yeah. The brain isn’t the mechanism. The the the epigenetics is that there is this process that’s above genes. So for so long and and still in our science community, The tendency is to think about it in the sense of genes. Mm-hmm. So

Justin:

’cause they’re like the blueprint, right? I mean that’s the concept.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah. Then we can change the the process, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and what happens, epigenetics basically says no, there’s a process above that. Okay, so the way that I think the and and it I’ve been uh reminded so much of Mary Ellen and Mary Beth in this, because even even the food that we consume can change part of our genetic process. And the thoughts we have can also change that to where Who we are is uh according to s much much as we’ve developed Our understanding and the ability to measure what happens in the brain and how it works and how it flows you know, we’re able to recognize that ninety percent of who we are, okay, not so much from a um a physical standpoint, but yes, even our physical being, you know, is controlled by our thoughts. And with the and this is this is the neat part to me because what part of my brain structure or my gene mapping, if you will, is actually passed through my sperm and the ova, it’s able to pass through that in what is communicated to the next generation And yet we recognize in that 90%, okay, it’s not that that person is destined, okay, because they still because of what has been passed on to them, because they still have the ability of free will to make choices regardless of the map that has transcended the sperm and the oven. Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does make sense.

Mark:

So everything in scripture that basically says children to the third and fourth generation Okay, is absolutely true. You know, much of many things are passed on through the family systems, and yet the individual still has free will to choose, so therefore they have the responsibility to choose. So the aspects of Good DNA or you know, good genes, she has good genes, or he was born that way, are actually a myth.

Justin:

Yeah. Well they’re they’re not a myth in the sense that there’s nothing to it, right? Is that correct?

Mark:

It’s in other words, it’s past through, yes, it it it is passed through, but that doesn’t mean that that’s who that person is. Yes.

Justin:

As a defining

Mark:

yes.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah, I think that’s incredible and obviously something that feels intuitively true to me based on like being involved in recovery for a long time and seeing people who share their stories of this is what I was and this is what my parents were and this is what their parents were and now I’m not that, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And in the course of one lifetime Kind of breaking that chain.

Mark:

Yes. Yes, exactly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And the the the neat part of it is we’re this is what kind of brings up the awe part for me. is that this is new science. This is, you know, cutting edge. In other words, you know, we always uh talked about it even with our kids. It’s like, yeah, you know, you gotta take this class, you gotta, you know, you gotta have these complex classes because it challenges your ability to think because there’s jobs that aren’t even made yet that you might be a part of. You follow me? Yep. It’s like, when am I ever going to use this critical thinking stuff? Well, and it it it reminds me of that because in reality I think, you know, neuroscience is part of that to where there are you know, with this information, jobs are being created and r you know, that we’ve never heard of before. But the reality of it is I believe thinking is Thinking is a God-given ability, okay? And in in my from my perspective, it’s what makes us most like God. And our ability to do that or how he has created us with that process is probably next below

Justin:

Well yeah, so

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

The uh the thing that does that that that kinda is the defining characteristic is When you can think about your thoughts.

Mark:

Yes. Right? So we can.

Justin:

Right. So that’s the difference between, you know I mean you could argue that maybe a dog is thinking, you know, whether they should uh disobey or obey you or whatever. You know, whatever. Yeah, whatever. Animal and there’s some intelligent animals. But can you imagine looking at a chimp as he’s, you know, you know, plucking flies out of his friend and eating them or whatever? Is he thinking existential thoughts about his thoughts?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Very unlikely. We there’s n there’s no proof of that anyway. But that is definitely the defining characteristic, I think, when it comes to the difference between us and the rest of creation and what makes us like God is that and that is this thing.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? That is what makes all the difference. That ability to think about your thoughts means you can know in many ways control those thoughts.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Redirect those thoughts. Which using your Creek analogy.

Mark:

And we exactly and we we can’t control you know, things, but we can choose our response to them.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And that in and it it just when we really stop and think about that I’m reminded of myself or in when I listened at times to others, how often you can hear a person’s thoughts in what they’re saying. And yet it’s not until we say it out loud that we realize, oh, that’s what I was thinking. You follow me? You know how many times we’ve referred to I can’t. How many times a day would we likely say that? And how does that impact Who we are.

Justin:

Yeah. And it’s I mean that yeah, you’re probably the same way maybe with your kids, but that’s always been a pet peeve when it’s um excuse me?

Mark:

Yes

Justin:

Uh if you say that, then you won’t. And you yeah, it’s true. You know, it’s kind of that self-fulfilling thing, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah.

Mark:

And so that’s that’s that’s where the epigenetics part, above genetics. In other words, yes, we pass on these genes and we we have received them. And yet that’s not who we have to be because our thoughts can change our DNA structure in such a way. And and it basically comes down to even differences between toxic thought. and how that affects our ability. And it it the here again, uh just just just give me a little chain here, but feel free to pull back if I need um And I I think about it in the way we think, okay, and how the way we think affects our body. Okay.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And for example, if we were to go back twelve years and say, for example, you are experiencing depression, you know, that kind of thing. you would have been given, you know, what we’d call an SSRI. Um selective this is the word I like. selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Okay? That’s the

Justin:

sounds familiar.

Mark:

Exactly. So this is the interesting part. Because what what we are, if I may say, and this is nothing against medication, okay, but this is what we are learning, this is what we are understanding now. based on science is that twelve years later, what I’m gonna prescribe for you from a therapeutic standpoint doesn’t have to be an SSRI. I’m gonna I’m gonna prescribe to you something that’s very similar to prayer. It’s gonna be called meditation. Okay And I’m gonna recommend that you can control your thoughts. And when you find yourself heading down that I’ll call it negative rabbit hole. I’m gonna challenge you to take that thought captive. That’s gonna sound much like scripture. You follow me? And I’m gonna be able and we’re gonna be able to recognize as you Select, if I may, your thoughts, you’re able to transform your thinking and and where how you create that same level of serotonin in your own brain. Hmm. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And the reality of it is it’s like in scripture we can look back And how often are we reminded to take our thoughts captive, to renew our mind? And it’s interesting because now science is actually catching up with scripture.

Justin:

Yes. That that is exciting and honestly that’s exactly so th this Sunday the message we had you know it’s the last message in a series called Predecide.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? So pre decide right there we’re talking about taking thoughts captive, basically we’re pre pre premeditating on decisions, essentially, right? Sure. And um You know, we read from Romans twelve one and two, which I’m gonna read, which we don’t ever we always just, you know, do our paraphrase. Uh so Romans twelve one and two says, I appeal to you brothers by the mercies of God. Present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be truly Transformed by the renewal of your mind that might that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. And, you know, we we went through that and kind of he taught through that scripture a little bit, but my brain was just worrying as I was thinking about, you know, this renewing of our mind. Like you just said, my I was thinking, science is starting to catch up with this concept.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That these neuropathways, this neuroplasticity in our brain There’s this ability for our brain to be transformed. Yes. To be renewed.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? And there’s there’s starting to be scientific proof of that and um like you said, like actual methods for accomplishing that. And when you find out what they’re saying, hey, we we’re finding out these methods work to carve new paths and that those creaks in your brain, they look a lot like Prayer. They look a lot like meditation. They look a lot like surrender.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? And uh so I I just thought that was incredible, and I was just thinking about how You know, a lot of times we can’t get out of our existing patterns, that creek bed.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

If we’re

Mark:

we can’t

Justin:

if we’re in it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, you know, I think we talked about this before. I think it’s an Einstein quote. You can’t solve a problem from the same level that you created it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. So if you’re stuck in that same pattern, you have to surrender out of it. Which is why I really like, you know, basically that scripture is kind of the method to accomplish mind renewal, which is first offering your body a living sacrifice. This idea of surrendering what you think you know.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? To your to a higher power. Someone who is above the level that you are.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And then allowing his word

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Come in and give you new ideas. Sure.

Mark:

Right? Yeah.

Justin:

And as that happens, your brain starts carving new paths, going, oh Oh, I can trust him in this situation instead of trying to control it or you know what I mean?

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

And my mind was just like thinking about all these things in terms of Yeah, this neural these neural pathways and stuff.

Mark:

And if I can trust him in this area, I can probably trust him in that area.

Justin:

So now

Mark:

and that area. Right. And that area.

Justin:

Your creek is starting to diverge into these other new

Mark:

yes you know

Justin:

waterways or whatever that were never there before.

Mark:

Exactly. And that’s and that’s neuroplasticity. our brain’s ability to rewire, reconfigure, to be malleable in such a way that I can be a completely different person.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s incredible.

Mark:

It is. And it it’s interesting because we know, you know, we’ve known where parts of these things happen in the brain early on previously. Like, well, if I may, early on, um, we understood uh Phineas Gage, okay, um, was a minor

Justin:

I really like Phineas and Furb.

Mark:

Yeah, I understand.

Justin:

Just saying.

Mark:

Not the same Phineas, but he was a minor. Long story short, he was a supervisor. And He had a rod. I think it was a brass rod that he would tap. Maybe it wasn’t brass, but either way, he was a miner He would tap the drilling holes when they blasted in the mines. Long story short, he tapped his rod into one of those blasting holes and it set off a blast. And it shot that rod up through below his eye cavity and out through the top of his brain. Okay?

Justin:

Ouch.

Mark:

Ouch. But he lived. Okay, so he was like the first example.

Justin:

It’s unbelievable. So a rod went through his face. Right

Mark:

below his face, like came yes, up through the front what we call the prefrontal cortex of his brain. Okay? And he lived. So this was this was like miraculous.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because somebody had experienced a brain injury and lived. But what we know about who Phineas was was he changed dramatically because of that experience. Okay. Prefrontal cortex basically is our where our executive function takes place. Okay, so all of our ability to schedule kinda if you think about it from executive function, it’s that CEO of our mind.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Okay? Yep. So he because of his injury, he lost that He was no longer able to function as a manager. He basically became a beggar, if you will, because he he had lost that executive function of his brain, which we understand But yeah, he became belligerent and just kind of a drunkard that kind of thing in that day. And we we his his skull is still in, you know, some museum somewhere that basically and that began this process that we are kind of learning further about today was that certain parts of the brain do certain things. And you know, and there’s other parts, you know, where where we’ll talk about that, you know, Um if you not necessarily of a design perspective, you know, reptilian brain, mammalian brain, that kind of thing But you know, it’s going to be a process of primary function, our lower back where all of our senses are connected, and then our executive function

Justin:

And when we can keep our executive, he was pointing to the lower back part of his skull. He’s not saying part of your brain is in your lower back.

Mark:

Yes, my upper neck and lower lower back of my head. But yes, that’s where primary focuses are

Justin:

so eloquently drawing with your hand motion.

Mark:

But yes, it’s that ability to recognize, okay, I’ve been designed this way for a reason. And and the reality of it is the designer knows the purpose and we’re just catching up with it. And I because um you can actually, if you don’t mind, um Deuteronomy 3019 is it is another is another uh area because I like what it what it says and that’s just one example when you think about going back that’s one example Where we can say, okay, God is encouraging us to choose. And He gives us this process. If you want to read that one, that’s a that’s a good one. Okay.

Justin:

I don’t think that’s the one. What what

Mark:

Deuteronomy 3019.

Justin:

I had twenty thirteen.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Which talks about putting all its males to the sword. I don’t think that’s what you’re sorry. Uh thirty

Mark:

3019. It’s okay. Sorry. I didn’t mean to throw it with uh put you on the spot there.

Justin:

No, you’re good.

Mark:

And it’s gonna put me on the spot if suddenly this is and all their males were put to the sword again.

Justin:

Uh okay, yep. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore, choose life. that you and your offspring may live. You want me to keep going?

Mark:

No, that’s fine. I mean, but that’s the pro in other words, there’s God is given us heaven and earth is this witness that we have the ability to choose and we get to choose each and every day. And sometimes it is a matter of choice between blessings and curse. Because sometimes curses are handed down to me from the third and fourth generation. But that’s not to say that’s who I have to be. I can choose blessing and I can choose life.

Justin:

Yeah, and it’s it’s so important to understand the realities of those things because that’s the uh kind of the impetus for the choosing, right? So if I understand those patterns that are in me inherently due to those that genetic code passed down, well now I know I have to do the work. to override those things, more so than maybe my spouse or or you know, whoever, my friend. But knowing that that’s the case, I think a lot a lot of times really helps. Which I which is again going back I can’t help but I always go back to the principles of recovery and stuff like that. But the first step is denial.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The first principle, the first uh lesson is denial and because Until I admit that I have that thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, in this case we’re gonna say a pattern passed out my for my parents or whatever, right? Genetic code. Um, until I can understand it admit that, there’s no moving forward, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I do I do think you can try to not admit that that that is inherent in my genetic code and still do choose try and choose around that and and go forward. I think the problem with that is it it’s a little bit of an ignorant stumbling if you don’t know exactly the path you want to avoid and which will help and guide and direct the path you want to take.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Is that fair

Mark:

And I think it’s very fair. And I think in addition to that , what you’re re w if if I’m hearing you correctly What you’re saying is that we have a choice or I’m what I’m hearing is we make a choice each day. whether we know it or not in many ways. Mm-hmm. When we follow the pattern, i even if it’s in ignorance, we’re still making a choice to follow versus that ability that I have to say, okay, is this what I want? Is this the behavior that I desire to continue in?

Justin:

I think that could be a polarizing statement, right? Yeah. That I’m you’re choosing to do the bad thing But if you ‘re not sure. If you consider the fact that you can choose otherwise.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right. Well now you have to recognize that the path you were on is also a choice. Like you said, a default choice, sure.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

But still a choice. And again, I think that ties very nicely into the lot of the, you know, stuff with recovery in terms of like denial and saying I you know I can’t fix it. It’s it’s beyond me. It’s just who I am or whatever. Okay, yep, you’re right.

Mark:

And from my perspective um, as you were sharing, I’m thinking still in that it is a we we do have a choice which comes back to free will. This is what makes it polarizing. ‘Cause if I’m saying that, I have to recognize, okay. Either I do or I don’t have a choice sometimes. But my free will, it gives me the opportunity to choose. And that’s where, from my perspective, that’s where the epigenetics comes into play. Because I can realize some of these things have been passed on to me. And when and this is this is part of um I’m gonna call this the uh psychological part of that denial, okay? Because so often What happens is decisions we make, okay, are based on our subconscious. Okay. It’s not necessarily up into if I I’m I’m putting my hand here and I got a hand above and I got a hand below. So m when I put my right hand below my left hand, that’s subconscious. Okay. So What what my thoughts do, what my brain does, is anything that’s in subconscious Is still available to me, available to me. It becomes the neural pathways that my mind, that my brain operates in Okay, that’s subconscious. And what my brain does is it looks back at all of the the patterns that have been demonstrated, all the modeling that I’ve seen. And it tends to make that decision for me. Okay. But each time, it’s it’s it’s very similar to our communication, okay? Now You and I, uh, we typically listen to this at one and a half because our communication tends to occur slower than we might like. Okay, but in communication, good communication, it can take up to seven to ten seconds for a person to who’s actually listening to respond to me. Because I’m actually processing that. So when I gain awareness, okay, that seven to ten seconds is still available to me in every choice I make. But when I gain awareness of it, I bring it up into my consciousness. And therefore I’ve gained awareness. And because I have awareness, now I choose differently what to do With that same seven to ten seconds that has been a automatic neural pathway practically beforehand. Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does, and that kind of ties into the meditation side of things, right? In the sense that you’re trying to slow down and require the subconscious things to move up.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Into the layer where you are actively manipulating those thoughts.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes. Yes. To where I’m active actively making a different choice. And that is actually rewiring my brain.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s and it’s interesting because, you know, uh I tend to think of positive and negative thoughts. Okay. Some would say, um I would even say healthy or toxic thought.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. If I continue in a pattern of toxic thought, it’s gonna affect how I think. Okay, that’s that’s the reality. And I and I’m and um this is part of the neat part and the freeing part for me. is that I recognize how much of the influence we have around us propagates Toxic thought. There’s not enough. You know, there’s this um scarcity mindset as we’ve talked about before. You know, there’s not enough. There can’t be enough. You know, there’s only there’s only only so many resources in the petri dish and you know, and we’re gonna use them all up and you know, and it’s like I’m not sure. I’m well I know I’m not I’m sure that that’s not the case. Right. And yet that becomes the promotion. And it’s interesting to me because I’m I’m hearing If if we’re gonna come back to the aspect and you know, here again, credit to Mary Beth and Mary Ellen for doing this hard work, but If we’re gonna come back to roughly seventy to eighty five percent of our health is actually affected by how we think, okay, yeah, I’m gonna recognize that we are seeing that I am actually seeing in my small scale. I am seeing more and more teenagers who are wrestling with anxiety. I am hearing more and more about younger kids who are are who have cancer. And from my mind, I’m automatically going there and saying, okay, what are we continuing to promote? And how is it really affecting the health of our our young young adults and kids in this process that, you know, I just and it still comes back to scripture for me because God hasn’t given us a spirit of fear. You know, he’s given us a spirit of love. And when we’re able to

Justin:

power and love in a sound mind.

Mark:

Sound mind. Yes. Thank you for the rest of that. That ability to be able to say, okay, I don’t have to live in this fear. I don’t have to live in this anxiety. And yet that’s not judgmental because I recognize how people who have experienced, you know, tremendous hurt, you know, they can get caught in that cycle of thinking and fear and ruminating in such a way that it captures them.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet you’ve experienced it. I know I’ve experienced it where, you know, people who have the ability to process that and say, okay, that’s not who I am. That’s not who I That’s not what I want to choose to think about. And we can see that transformation that occurs. That’s that’s where this comes back to for me.

Justin:

Yeah, and what you’re describing again is that pattern of the world.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And, you know, I think Growing up when I would hear these verses and I would immediately think like just don’t be such a sinner. Like

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Like don’t think about sinful things. Uh, which of course I think it means that as well. But I’m saying it is saying all of those things, like this pattern that we get stuck in our brains. Yes. Right? This fear um, this limited mindset, you know, just all the things that you were describing, is is the pattern of the world and it doesn’t align with the pattern that he has for us. Exactly. Which is why again it kinda comes back to the surrendering of that. Which is that uh, you know, living sacrifice. It says living sacrifice specifically ’cause number one, we’re not required to die to be the sacrifice. And number two, it’s active. Yeah. It’s not a passive effort, it’s an active effort to which kind of goes back to that daily mindfulness kinda that same ties right back into the same science that we’re finding. That it’s a daily effort to continue to transform that brain.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right. Re replacing the the default patterns that were handed down to me through my genetics.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That are ever present in every situation I’m in. Like how many You know, ninety percent of our interactions throughout the day, you’re gonna see a pattern exhibited that doesn’t align with healthiness.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Correct? Wouldn’t you say that ninety percent is a very high number. Okay. I don’t think there’s I don’t think you can put a number on the point is it’s all around us, right? You go to the gas station and someone’s upset at the cashier or You know what I mean? You go to the um yeah.

Mark:

are the same as yesterday.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So unless we’re actively, you know, challenging those thoughts, we are going to tend to repeat the same behavior as the day before. Mm-hmm. But each day we choose a different journey affects that eighty to ninety-five, eight eighty-five to ninety percent.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And the and the the neat part I like about what you’re saying is we can recognize, because as I understand This process, okay. Not that sin isn’t an issue, okay, but it’s become less of an issue for me. Because as I look at this, okay I’m better from my perspective. I see God in what he is doing and I see his grace and I see his mercy that basically he understands Every choice I make and why I’m making it based on what has been handed down to me, okay, he understands it, and yet he still provides a way out of it. So it it’s just it’s just transformed the fact that you know I can and it it’s it brings to light that aspect of as I see it Satan is the father of lies okay and it brings that um Oh, what’s the word when some temptation, thank you.

Justin:

You’re welcome. My pleasure.

Mark:

It brings temptation to mind because we’re surrounded, we can be surrounded by lies. But we can also challenge those lies with the truth in such a way that is grace-filled. And it it just it just transforms for me that perspective, not in a not in a arrogant sense, but here again coming back to the awe that I have for God. that he knows all of it and he provides us a way out of it.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And we have a choice. Just like he’s given, clear back in Deuteronomy, just like he gave, you know, everyone, choose this day whom you will serve you know, choose to be courageous, be strong and courageous. You know, all of that, it’s it it’s like he’s still speaking that same way to us today as he did to Moses and Abraham and you know all and Caleb and you know all those people who did those things I think in some ways they have that they might have felt that very same way that I’m doing right now, right then. Mm-hmm. You follow me?

Justin:

Absolutely.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s that’s that’s the grace filled part for me.

Justin:

Yeah, and you know, speaking of polarizing things as we do, you know, you mentioned sin and it’s not, you know, quite as uh however you described it. And my thought about that is that we w really, really want clear definitions of sin. We want to know is that thing a sin or not? Can I can I do that thing

Mark:

Yes. Right. Up to that fence. Where’s the line?

Justin:

Right. Where are the lines? So where it’s it’s it’s sin or it’s just uh depression.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s sin or it’s just worry

Mark:

Sure. The tacos.

Justin:

Yeah. The tacos, right. phrase it maybe a a different way to say that I think there’s a lot more depends on how you want to define sin. But essentially that subconscious layer and that genetic code passed down to us that says you know, when someone offends you, punch ’em in the face. Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s what we call our flesh.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Okay? This is this is why we’re uh from birth in need of something better, bigger, stronger. purer than us. Sure. Because from the get-go, we don’t have even the level of quote unquote righteousness that we need. to to accomplish, you know, w w what needs to be done. Um and I think that’s so important to understand that like even our tendencies towards, you know behaviors that are harmful to us.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like worry. We want to be really careful and not offend people to say your worry is not a sin. We we don’t want to say that. But at the same time I don’t think I think we we spend too much time defining what sin is and spend not enough time trying to transform our mind, right? Like trying to think his thoughts and stop thinking our thoughts And I would argue if if if the choice is my thoughts versus his thoughts, you know, it’s there’s a pretty high likelihood there’s some sin in there, whether you you know, whether I want to call my depression sin or not, like if I can’t shake my beliefs and my thoughts and replace them with his, then I’m gonna argue that that’s a sinful position. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I appreciate your clarification. That’s kind of what I was wanting to convey in a in a n not ego egocentric or, you know, egotistical manner that, you know, sin doesn’t matter. I don’t but I uh you you said it very well.

Justin:

I guess and part of the reason I want to I I choose to make that clarification for me as well, is because when it’s not as clear where sin is and it’s m more likely that I’m sinning more often than than I’m willing to un to believe, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Well now grace really matters.

Mark:

Sure. Right.

Justin:

And I do think that’s where the Pharisees got it wrong. They’re like, okay, we we drew the lines. You know, the fence was erected around our lives and we no longer allow sin in. Sin lives outside the fence

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And Jesus is saying, You fools, you’re whitewashed, you know, tombs. You’re you’re dirt you’re dirty on the inside and clean on the outside.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know what I’m saying?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so They clearly got it wrong and we tend to get it wrong when we think, Oh, that thing is the sin versus sin just kinda comes out of me and what needs to happen is then I need to put him back in me. Yeah. living sacrifice li sacrificially replace myself with him , you know, removing those old patterns of the world And allowing when I get rid of myself and allow him to come in through that surrender through that daily sacrifice, well now he begins to renew my mind.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? And so tomorrow fifteen percent I’m not thinking the same way.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right? You said eighty five percent. So there’s fifteen percent that on a daily basis we can tap into. Where he’s transforming us so that my patterns slowly adjust over time and I used to be heading this direction. I’m pointing

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And uh over the course of some years of doing this daily work of transforming, allowing him to come in and transform fifteen percent of my thoughts in that day. I’m now over here pointing this direction. Exactly. My mind has been transformed and renewed. Yes. Right? And I think that’s uh That happens when you recognize the need to continually suppress self which continually d desires to fall into those patterns that I’ve been handed down and or are modeled right in front of my face. Like I was saying, as you walk out into the world it’s like, oh, you know, or you watch TV, you watch news and you see Those patterns, all of that stuff is continually trying to become the default.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And we have to do the the work of that surrender.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And I and I I like the analogy you brought up with the, you know, the Pharisees. And we can recognize how for generations that had been etched in their thinking that was handed down, it was passed on. And when it came the moment to make a choice, they just they just didn’t You follow me. All of the all the information was there and it and in some ways it it’s kind of similar to our our perspectives today because I think at times and I th I like the way you describe it in this transition to be c more Christ-minded because I think in our day and age, you know, we can have this aspect of open-mindedness, you know, to where and I think in some ways, you know, science is basically saying that yeah, some of this open-mindedness may not be all it’s cracked up to be either. Because there this is this you what it reminded me of is Individuals, okay, who were basically who dealt with depression, okay if they recited or repeated positive I statements over a longer period of time.

Justin:

It’s affirmations, essentially, right?

Mark:

Well It’s I statements, yes. What’s no no, you’re fine. Uh what was the movie uh The Help? Remember the Help where the uh the the the maid was telling the little girl You are kind, you are beautiful, you you know, there was you are strong, you know. Well, that was an affirmation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. But if I’m taking it from an I standpoint. I am strong. I am kind. Research says that basically doing that doesn’t make a person better. It actually can be counterproductive because when they’re it’s it’s just about me. And what it what it does in some ways is it creates more cognitive dissonance. It’s it’s where what I’m what I’m what I’m feeling doesn’t necessarily align with what I’m thinking. But if I can transform And I recognize that I’m not the center of the universe, but there’s something bigger than me in the center of the universe. That’s when the transformation occurs. They actually were able to measure, okay, people with um HIV, they were actually able to measure the amount um That was it was a load. Um like uh what would negative things in your bloodstream be

Justin:

Negative things.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s in other words, like um when you’re sick you have

Justin:

too much iron.

Mark:

No, you have a higher level of um Uh it’s oh shucks.

Justin:

I’m just gonna throw out blood words. Hemoglobin. I think that’s a good one.

Mark:

It’s a long it’s like like Mary Beth would have called offenses. Okay, I’m gonna call it Uh I apologize. I don’t have that the words not coming up to me. But they were actually able to measure the l it was a load. It was like Things that

Justin:

offense load.

Mark:

We’ll call it the offense load, okay, in their blood system And those who actually were able to recognize or admit that there is a loving God. Okay, the load that offense load actually diminished for them. They could measure that in their blood with people who had HIV to and if a to where if a person didn’t have that feeling, it was like their their their levels kept climbing instead of dropping by that third. And it basically and and there again That’s part of the epigenetic process because we can recognize all um twins are not the same person. There’s those subtle differences that I make by choosing because if it if our brains were all you know machines, okay, no no twin would ever be different.

Justin:

Because they have the same genetic code, right?

Mark:

That’s right. So they so therefore if they’re a same genetic code and our brains are machines, those two individuals would continually be. But that’s where epigenetics come in. Each person can make those subtle choices. and the and the child that is born three minutes ahead is gonna have a different standing to a certain degree than the the quote unquote younger twin. You follow me? And all this, and it’s just fascinating when you think about that in that context of you know, these are what how powerful our choices are and our environment is. And yet we have this ability to choose it differently. And even down to the food we consume, they did a a study with mice, okay? Certain mice um agate agate agati mice, okay, tend to be yellow and they tend to be overweight or obese. Okay But what they did, there’s a there’s a complex name for it, but what they did was they gave them B vitamin before they mated. And just that influx of dietary dynamics changed the dinet genetic code within those mice. to where that next generation no longer strugg struggled to be fat and obese just because of the B vitamin being introduced before they made it. And it and it actually proves they’ve they went on to do that and research how obesity is affected even in humans based on what we consume. Even um is it Noom? Are you familiar with Noom? Yeah. It’s it’s that process to be able to recognize how certain foods I have learned to be comfort foods for me. And when I’m transforming my thinking about what that food is and my need for it, it loses its hold on me and I’m able to lose weight and do and you know make different choices.

Justin:

Noom if you’d like to sponsor us.

Mark:

I appreciate those thoughts. It’s like I’m not even close to that thought, but Justin brings it out.

Justin:

I hear Mark talk and I hear cha cha cha cha.

Mark:

I appreciate that, Justin. Like you say, somebody needs to be thinking on the cha ching part of this deal. But yeah, it’s just fascinating to me. And it and it’s just that process of choosing. Not only and it’s it’s not about and here again it comes back to you it’s not necessarily about positive thinking it’s about the mind of Christ and this is a choice that we have. And I think it comes back to me when I have choices, when I recognize That yes, I was born a certain way, but that’s still a choice to me today. That also I’m also mindful of the responsibility That goes along with that. Because if I was, if I’m if I’m thinking that I was just born that way, and therefore that’s my excuse. That’s gonna seem mighty frail at some point in my life. And it’s like, okay, I’ve lived my entire life thinking I didn’t have a choice. And suddenly I’m going to become aware that, oh shucks. All along I had a choice and therefore I’m now responsible for the choice that I make. And it and it and it’s and it’s convicting to me as an a pa as a parent. Because I realize I’m passing some of my stuff on to my kids just through the epigenetics, that that gene process, and yet I want to be making choices today.

Justin:

Well once they left the holster, you aren’t going to change that epigenetic code.

Mark:

You’re n you’re not. I’m not changing. I’m not changing the gene pool that was passed on, okay? But yet by relationship I can help redefine some of the choices that they make based on what I’m modeling.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And that’s that’s part of that responsibility conviction in a positive sense for me to be able to say, okay, yep. And it and it’s just yeah.

Justin:

I th I I mean a lot of what you’re talk uh or what we talked about today I really do think does tie back to this conversation about nature versus nurture. And I think You know, there are there are camps that believe way more in nurture and way more in nature, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I I mean I think I feel like everything we’re talking about here is it is both.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and there is very much a nature aspect to who we are, the genetic code, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And the problem is when we don’t see that um and it remains on that subconscious layer. Well it becomes deterministic, right? Like I am nature. I am what I was handed down and I am, you know, I can’t change that. But as we’ve discussed. No, you absolutely can. There’s no end to science to show that there is the ability to transform that nature, right? Those the that genetic code that says you should be X. People can change that. Yes. And that can come through nurture, right? Like parenting as you’re describing to say, oh, oh crap, I handed down uh a bit a quick temper.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. Well

Mark:

alcoholism.

Justin:

Right, alcoholism, right. What can I do now on the nature s side of things to to n or excuse me, nurture side of things to start nurturing, okay, listen. You’re gonna have a tendency towards a quick temper, but here’s how we deal with that, or here’s how we you know, and here are the steps to address that. And slowly they they can adopt some of the changes you’ve taken your whole life to learn.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And start learning from, you know, as a parent handing down in this nurturing system right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Teach ’em to how to address that thing. And if you if they do that over the course of their lifetime, by the time they get to their kids It’s a different beast, right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Even the genetic code likely that they’re passing down transformed to a degree. And you continue that through the generations. Um, I d yeah, it’s pretty incredible. Which is why, again, going back to the Bible about to the second and third generation, there is a s a point where that code has been um The

Mark:

iniquity has been ended.

Justin:

Yeah, and I’m trying to think of the the term when you add uh diluted. Okay. Diluted, sure. So there’s been enough mixture of other genetic code and nurturing and all these things that it doesn’t mean that the third generation is fine and good, it means that likely that specific bit that was so strong has been diluted to this point to where I I d I don’t know. I just I think d

Mark:

I apologize ’cause I’m gonna Do you remember where that verse is?

Justin:

The second and third

Mark:

and third generation. Because I want to say there’s more to it, right? Because I want to say third and fourth generation, but if once we’re transformed, it can be passed on to the a longer period of time. In other words, it it says, you know, cursing will be third and fourth generation, but a blessing can continue on and on and on, if I’m recalling that correctly. You able to find it? It’s okay?

Justin:

I’m still looking.

Mark:

Yeah. Because uh that’s yes, uh I’m coming back to that nurture and nature part of it. Yes, is is our ability to be able to say, okay, either I do have a choice and I’m responsible for that choice, or I’m a victim and therefore I can’t choose anything differently. And I think that’s that’s part of that difference when we see it that way. It’s getting close, folks. Man. This is this this is another thing, Justin, I I have to admit. I have as as I’ve uh recognized choices I can admit that I have become less technology averse.

Justin:

Uh-huh.

Mark:

I have. I because I

Justin:

create new neural pathways.

Mark:

I I am creating New neuropathways.

Justin:

Two tier neuroplasticity.

Mark:

I yes.

Justin:

Well done.

Mark:

I’m trying.

Justin:

Uh yes. So this is Exodus 25.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um the Lord is slow to anger and abounding instead fast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers and the children to the third and the fourth generation. So third and fourth, not second and third.

Mark:

Yeah, but I I want to say there was a part that went even further on.

Justin:

Um there’s another visiting iniquity. Um Yeah, there’s several verses about visiting the iniquity of the fathers and the children and the children’s children to the fourth and third and fourth generation.

Mark:

Uh-huh. Does there anything after that? After that verse? Third and fourth generation.

Justin:

So far there’s four verses with that in it.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Five verses.

Mark:

I gotcha. It’s okay.

Justin:

Well, I think it’s very interesting. Um

Mark:

, because I want to say there was one of them that almost made it, you know, if you challenge that that process, if you choose differently, you know, yes, it will you know, that that iniquity can last for the third and fourth generation, but blessing will continue on. even further is what

Justin:

Yeah. I would have to click through each of these.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s okay. Don’t worry about it. That was my bad. I should uh

Justin:

I think um

Mark:

It just kinda came to me in the middle of uh our our discussion.

Justin:

Whether it’s tied to these scriptures or not, we we know it’s in certainly in the New Testament in terms of uh Jesus allowing that, right? So essentially whatever was in the past, the minute we take on salvation can be erased. Now You know, then it goes to all the work of the the daily s you know, living sacrifice concept. Um but yeah. Sure it’s it’s it it’s it’s It’s very interesting and I love any conversation or you know, in any time that science, like you said, catches up.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And you know, none of this stuff is mind blowing when you think about hey, people can change. You know, it’s like, okay, we’ve known that. for centuries. I mean these scriptures were written. How many centuries ago, right?

Mark:

And I and I think so much this is this is I I think the uh the the sermon you mentioned, you know, it talked about um sacrifice always um being paid off or being worth it. You know, that the there’s there’s a sacrifice and the price is always worth as was it being paid. Now we can wrestle with that. Okay, because I’m, you know, I don’t typically think in absolutes. But I will say that I think much of what we

Justin:

You never think in absolutes?

Mark:

I try not to think in absolute. Yes.

Justin:

That was a joke.

Mark:

And and I apologize if I did say never.

Justin:

You didn’t. I just wanted to.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Trap you and you got out of that smooth and you didn’t you didn’t get trapped with that.

Mark:

Well I’m still and I’m still holding my train of thought. But what the uh the interesting part for me is when we think about sacrifice. and the ability to, you know, it comes at a sacrifice and, you know, it w the what was communicated it is always worth the I can I wrestle with that as a human, but I also will um recognize where so much of this information has come from uh about neuroplasticity, and I think a lot of it has to do with TBIs. And I recognize there are a lot of armed forces people, you know, who have, you know, experienced, you know, improvised exp IEDs. IEDs. Yes.

Justin:

For those of us who don’t know the acronyms, um TBI.

Mark:

Oh, traumatic brain injury. Sorry, I apologize.

Justin:

ID. Um

Mark:

Explosive device. It’s in improvised explosive device. So basically

Justin:

IED, yeah.

Mark:

IED, that’s what I said, correct? Yeah, that is, yeah. I believe that’s um Uh yes I’m sorry. Thank you for the clarification. So I believe our armed forces have made a tremendous sacrifice and I would recognize that much of what we know now is a uh uh as is has been paid at their expense. And yet I believe that in itself is demonstrating how God has made away even for people who have traumatic brain injury that they can learn to do things again. Is it gonna be hard work? Yes. Is it gonna be, you know, difficult? Yes. But I think, you know, that’s that’s where the freedom comes in from my perspective. And I and I and I just uh I just really can’t disconnect that. Um the armed services and the freedom that we have and how um the you know Christ basically offers each of us freedom and I’m r I’m mindful of the the cost that that was to him. And it wasn’t so much that he uh benefited from it, but we did. And I think, you know, the the analogy holds up, you know, the same way that as we learn more and more about our abilities, you know, the mind being over the brain and my ability to say, Yes I can, even when my body is fighting me, even when my brain has been injured, th there ‘s grace in that to be able to find a new way. And I just, I just, that brings back the Pharisees, you know, there’s and it there was another quote. It basically um Science is advanced funeral by funeral. So it’s it’s as we, you know, recognize that that isn’t incorrect and we let it die. You know, science actually catches up with design. And I I like that quote in a sense because so often I have to I have to die to self. I have to let go. of some of those things that have been passed on to me by imperfect parents, just like my children will have to let go of some of the things that I’ve passed on to them because I was an imper imperfect parent. And for me that’s that’s the the beauty of grace along with neuroplasticity.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s where I’m at.

Justin:

That’s a pretty good way to see it, Mark.

Mark:

Well, that’s how I see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.