0:03
[Music] beautiful I think we're recording sounds

0:08
great the numbers are going up which is the direction you want them that's right and we want them to continue going up continue want light to be on that's

0:15
right look at us we are learning we're getting good at this well we're learning

0:21
until we get some new equipment there you go you know well then there's more more to learn that's all yep hey you

0:26
know what that's what we're about Mark it is that's is what we're about that's why we do this so keep learning so yeah

0:32
let's do this yeah what are we doing Mark well you know I'm afraid to have you say it are you are you are you even

0:39
just afraid of the word itself uh no no actually I think I moved on from that

0:45
but man there are some topics that we avoid for a while because but they are

0:53
you'll understand yeah very polarizing so there's certainly uh conversations in

0:59
the zge that makes sense to be had in this context right

1:04
[Music]

1:09
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:16
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:23
[Music] conversations and for me you know one of

1:28
those words is transgender ISM mhm you know and I think part of it you know um

1:36
is a personal I mean of course that's why we do the podcast yeah this is how

1:42
we see it for or how I see it for a reason as far as that goes and I think

1:47
you know in this context um we do this because we desire

1:55
to offer hope mhm and so when we cover a topic

2:00
you know I believe we want to always bring it back to the aspect of okay yes

2:06
in this topic no matter whether it's you know as we've talked about so many other

2:11
topics like Pride or leadership or you know those kind of things it's not a

2:17
desire to single out and say you're wrong on that but it's a desire to be

2:23
able to share a perspective that hopefully offers hope

2:29
freedom you know from circumstances or even froms yeah from

2:36
the I guess the i i Dogma is too wrong too strong but you know my the thoughts

2:43
that keep me captive the ruts the ruts yeah that's that's and I and I think

2:48
that's where we're at that's where I'm at and I want to convey that you know

2:53
right off the bat because I recognize everybody you know knows

2:59
somebody who is you know living or struggling with this topic of you know

3:06
homosexuality you know lesbian lifestyle you know transgenderism and I and I use the word

3:14
transgenderism um more so I believe just based on the fact that I see you know

3:21
with my clientele with my the Cent the people I work with I see more and more

3:27
confusion in Young kids in the you know in the Adolescent era and you know I I

3:36
just see that confusion and I recognize how culture

3:42
feeds into that confusion and I also recognize you know in certain areas to

3:49
have a conversation like you and I might have could be mislabeled as hate speech

3:56
in such a way that you know got get someone in trouble you know and it's not

4:03
a desire to hate anyone and yet it's a desire to share how I see it in such a

4:10
way that hopefully offers hope and that's my premise and I think you as you

4:16
alluded to you know we you and I I think have a obligation opportunity to be able to

4:25
talk in such a way that says okay this topic can be talked about transgenderism

4:31
can be talked about and it's important to talk about it too and I think yeah I

4:38
think you know when you brought it up as a potential subject it's very much like I don't know do we want to touch that

4:45
yeah you know and go ahead again I'm just going to reiterate that I think it's important to not shy away from

4:52
conversations that are culturally relevant because there is an opportunity

4:57
to communicate communicate how to

5:03
communicate how I see it right so I think too don't forget what you're going to say by the way no um I'm with you I'm

5:10
not okay yeah I was going to say that something that's very important for us to recognize and have um you know kind

5:17
of a understanding of ourselves is that we are two middle-aged white guys and

5:23
that is the view that we are offering sure okay we know that right we know

5:29
that that's true in every episode right there's a particular Viewpoint that that

5:35
particular status yes conveys a large part of what we see sure and then we

5:41
convey what we see that's how we see it now we like to think that we're you know very enlightened and we can see all

5:48
sides of the view and we try and do that and that's the goal of this you know podcast but until we have guests in the

5:54
room who can offer a perspective that we just don't have this is how I see it you

5:59
know and I think what's important about that is not necessarily that you listen to what I think I see and Mark sees

6:07
although I'm glad you do and hopefully you find what we think and see valuable

6:13
but the idea is to demonstrate how to have these conversations again about you

6:19
know conversations you know have these conversations about polarizing the subjects right sure um and that they

6:25
would be done in a thoughtful way exactly right yeah no and and and as far

6:31
as that goes um I'm as I think about what you just shared um as being you

6:38
know 53 white male that kind of thing I think about it so much also from

6:45
remembering back to being an adolescent to being a

6:51
teenager and you know for me and this this is there again this is how I see it

6:56
for Me growing up having um well having experienced sexual abuse

7:05
and therefore you know my own um sexual immorality you know that became

7:10
pornography and stuff like that later on that's that's part of what I'm looking

7:16
back and I'm remembering you know that personal confusion and I think you know

7:22
when I'm working this is this is my experience when I'm working with let's I

7:30
I want to actually I'll bring it back to scripture I think scripture can be misinterpreted you know in some ways

7:36
because it it's kind of like well did God really say that about this person or

7:41
this group of people you know what he did he really say that about homosexuality did he really say that and

7:48
I think you know that's that's a that's a theme throughout scripture kind of and

7:54
I think it starts in Genesis 3 where you know Satan comes up to Adam and Eve

8:00
you know and basically said well did God really say that you follow me and I

8:06
think when when that happens or when we experience hurt when we experience you

8:13
know difficulty it it calls the love of God into

8:20
question and I think you know and that's that's where I'm sh yeah and that's where I'm sharing from cuz when I look

8:27
at you know scripture and I I look at these you know if you will these lists

8:32
you know that include homosexuality and I and I want to keep it broader in transgenderism but sexual immorality and

8:39
yeah all that and and I recognize that in that listing if you will it typically

8:45
starts out with something to the effect of sexual immorality you know what I'm saying and and and then it goes on down

8:52
to you know men who practice homosexuality and and you know and liars and thieves and that kind of thing and

8:59
and then it goes on as I'm thinking especially of like in 1 Corinthians 6 it goes on to say something to the effect

9:06
of and so were many of you you know what I'm saying to where I think it's a it's

9:12
a part of who we are as a nature that we have choices you know and and I think

9:20
you know we talked about epigenetics last week which you know people but I think that kind of rolled out it's been

9:26
it's been that kind of process for me and I've been able to really recognize

9:33
how when I'm um working with whether it's adults or

9:41
adolescents I'm hearing of the hurt that goes into this Dynamic that tends to

9:49
view that tends to skew my view of gender you follow me and I I I'm willing

9:56
to recognize that from my own personal life you know that when I you

10:03
know based on what I experienced I recognized that it in early on it skewed

10:12
my view of gender and I'll say you know sexual immorality itself you know if

10:18
we're looking at pornography even you know it SK skews my view I objec I tend

10:24
to objectify women and unfortunately that that's not just a

10:30
simple thing it's a it's a um EV evolving dynamic because what started

10:38
out as a simple image you know I tend to want more of that and it skews my view

10:45
of who I am as a male you know and I'll say created in God's image you know of

10:51
of um you know who Christlike masculinity if I may say so you know and

10:58
it's use my view of Christlike femininity MH you know and I think when

11:04
we experience this hurt you know in in many ways and that's and that's my

11:10
personal experience and then as I talk with other people who struggle with

11:17
transgenderism and lifestyle choices I personally can say I have yet to talk

11:23
with someone who struggles in that Arena who didn't also experience a level of

11:29
of perpetrating sexual perpetration whether it's abuse whether it's you know

11:36
experiencing their own personal trauma of some type from a sexual nature that's

11:41
that's my experience and I'm willing to recognize as I had been perpetrated against I'm

11:50
willing to recognize what how that affected me and I'm willing to extend

11:57
that likely affects others it likely affects other females it likesely affects other males and you know even as

12:04
I if we want to go on the other end of the spectrum to a certain degree even as I work you know and you've worked with

12:11
many males you know who are dealing with pornography and sexual addiction and that kind of thing and I want to

12:18
recognize that's part of that skewing and so I I can recognize how

12:24
personally when I'm talking with you know I'll say you know a young male or young female if they have been

12:31
perpetrated against you know it really especially by the opposite sex you know

12:39
um I'm just going to use a female for example if I may you know young female and she's been perpetrated against by

12:45
adult male I'm going to recognize and I'm going to hear I'm a hearing from her

12:51
how you know that men are just gross men are you know the devil if you will and

12:58
and I recognize how that tends to lean or skew that view of gender you know

13:06
based on that human hurt and that's the part that hurts me because I recognized

13:11
that that was a person who was perpetrated against and you know and then and

13:18
therefore now there's a there's so much wrestling that goes with that you know

13:24
and in our in our um in our world that sees things you

13:30
know so polarizing you know we have to be able to say okay what do I do with

13:36
this is there something wrong with me and you know and unfortunately that's

13:42
where shame goes is there is something wrong with me yeah and you know it's not

13:47
the fact that there's something you know that this person this other person that perpetrated against me is acting out of

13:53
the flesh if you will yeah and it is uncanny how often

13:59
that happens where you know someone is abused sexually in one way or another whether they're a child or yes a woman

14:06
at a party right or whatever it is it is uncanny how often that story includes

14:12
that shame of oh that was my fault and you know depending on the context you hear the story maybe there's some

14:18
admission that no it's not but that you still see that they feel that you know what I mean yes it is uncanny um to me

14:27
that that's as someone who has not experienced sexual abuse you would think of course

14:34
it's not your fault and you know yeah you poor thing and you hopefully by now you've realized or whatever it's like

14:41
there's something deep there sure that I we both seen and experienced in these

14:46
stories that it doesn't come out easily that shame yeah and you you and I look

14:51
at these stories objectively and go yeah but there is no shame there it was like

14:57
you said perpetrated it was sure put on you and then you were had to live with that and that's not there's nothing you

15:05
did there sure right yeah to perpetrate that it yeah and yet go ahead good luck

15:12
talking them into believing you sure and I think and I think that's where you know my desire is to share my personal

15:20
experience it's not that I'm talking to someone to try and convert or change them I just want to recognize that yes

15:27
because and here's here's the other part for me I recognized that I was perpetrated against and yet I'm going to

15:35
admit that there was a part of me that perpetrated against others if I'm being

15:40
really you know transparent because I took that hurt and I took it to someone

15:46
else sometimes you know and and I could say you know if we want to look at this

15:51
and this this is one of the aspects of uh how I see it that has really kind of

15:56
uh changed who I am or the way I think about things because now prior prior to

16:03
how I see it I didn't always follow the paths or I'll say the industry the money

16:11
if you will that can be you know beneficial by some of these things that

16:17
are really hurting people so if I'm going to look at you know my past I'm

16:23
going to recognize I was perpetrated against and yet I'm going to also recognize as I've

16:29
grown I've also perpetrated against others and I'll and I'll say that you know because you know I've you know had

16:36
inappropriate relationships you know and I also see you know pornography as an

16:43
industry that perpetrates against young females you know it's part of a sex

16:49
trafficking Dynamic and I can't for me personally I don't typically say can't

16:55
but it's very difficult for me not to see this as all interconnected mhm

17:01
because I I think at times and this is this is where my desire to offer Freedom comes from I think when we live out of

17:10
that hurt you know it's counter to you know relationship and I think you know

17:17
as we look at scripture as those lists I think all of those things are counter to

17:23
relationship and ultimately that's a matter of the heart and I think that's where God's greatest concern concern is

17:29
is anything that turns our heart away from all that he has to offer and I and

17:36
you know as we talk about the epics epigenetics you know I have to wrestle with that Free Will for me personally to

17:43
say okay yeah I did choose that behavior you follow me so therefore I am

17:51
accountable and responsible for that and as I recognize

17:56
that personally I have to be a able to say okay I'm not alone in that that's a

18:02
human Dynamic and so when I can look at that Free Will and for me personally I have

18:10
to be able to say okay so I did choose so now I have to you know make

18:16
amends and for those that I perpetrated against and you know and I it's it's in

18:22
my benefit to forgive others who have perpetrated against me you know and so for me those become

18:30
free will choices MH and and I think for me that's that's that freedom and hope

18:37
that we can find whether it's for through you know um sexual immorality

18:43
sexual addiction or you know a a lifestyle and and and coming back to the

18:50
transgenderism um I'm thinking about it in this context of my experience you

18:57
know through growing up and through getting my education and

19:02
um as I understand you know this um promoting of

19:08
transgenderism I do you remember you remember anorexia you remember how in some ways

19:16
bulimia and bulimia it was um it was a pretty big deal when I was getting my

19:23
education early on we don't hear that much about it anymore and um it's not that it doesn't

19:30
exist but I can remember early on and learning that the idea of anorexia they started

19:39
treating it in groups because what they recognized was it was a body well body

19:46
dysmorphia or body image type thing to where when when that person saw

19:54
themselves in the mirror we would look at them and see a healthy or Poss possibly even thinner

20:01
person but the way they viewed their image was was different and they viewed

20:09
that healthy thinner body as still being fat obese you follow me and I want to

20:17
recognize that as you know we've researched this transgenderism type Dynamic that same body image is what

20:26
drives or promotes it M and it and in in a lot of cases it still has to do with

20:35
that perception that I'm Different I can't connect with people you know I

20:41
have this inability to relate to this gender these these individuals I don't

20:47
relate well you follow me based on this thing that is wrong with me you know

20:54
from my perspective and unfortunately and I'll I'll this is this is uh this is heavy on

21:01
my heart unfortunately the church hasn't done a good job of connecting with

21:07
individuals and you know and I'll even you know as I work with adolescents you

21:14
know I'm hearing you know well it's the kids in church that are meaner to me

21:19
than than my by friends or my you know transgender friends because they accept

21:25
me for who I am you know and that hurts heart you know as a as a follower to be

21:32
able to say okay yeah how can we have these conversations in a way that says okay

21:39
yeah I'm accepting I I want to accept all of who you are and it's my desire to

21:46
do that in a way that offers you know freedom and hope and we can talk and and

21:52
we can be friends and I'm also willing to accept you as a person and still

21:59
recognize that yeah there's reasons why we make the choices we make and when we

22:06
understand that your choices make perfect sense yeah but not all of our

22:11
choices are always healthy yeah I yeah

22:16
inject a little bit here ahead sorry to no you're good um yeah I love I love

22:22
what you're having to say and I I agree I think um to that point about just just

22:28
kind of how culturally there's a a a problem with acceptance right um from quote unquote

22:36
the good people yes right yeah yeah quote unquote I like that yes um and yet

22:44
if you think about it if if you're someone who's taken the path of you know

22:50
lgbtq one of those versions and you're now on the other side what you want from

22:55
people around you is acceptance for your choice and so therefore what you're naturally

23:01
going to be better at than most is giving acceptance for other people's

23:06
choices right exactly and so it doesn't blow my mind right to find out that

23:13
sometimes or many times kids can find safety yes in the net of a group of

23:18
friends lgbtq friends sure who are there to accept each other and love each other

23:25
yes and like you said it is painful to see and admit that that it's more

23:31
likely that a kid is going to find love and acceptance in a group of L lgbtq

23:36
friends than at youth group yes exactly and I've heard many stories of how kids

23:43
left youth group feeling ostracized sure abused yes um you know made fun of

23:50
just all kinds of bad things sure and I think one thing that we you know one of

23:57
those polar sides does kind of maybe the church world the church world that hasn't quite given into having these

24:04
conversations and understanding how it's possible they simply go it's not possible therefore it's ridiculous kind

24:10
of thing yeah but I think it's important to hear hear the stories listen get in

24:17
on the conversations understand what's happening because it could be that I'm

24:23
the parent of a child who you know talks in certain ways about btq community in a

24:29
very judgmental way and my kid learns that and they understand that that

24:35
Community is meant to um you're meant to be disgusted at them you are meant to

24:41
consider yourself much much much better than them because you don't have that problem you're me you know this is

24:46
what's modeled sure maybe to my kid how am I supposed to expect my kid to

24:52
provide a loving and accepting atmosphere to those kids well in a lot of cases the parents we say don't do

24:58
that I don't want you to have be friends with them I don't want you to accept them I don't want you to be in any close

25:04
vicinity from them cuz you know it might be contagious sure or whatever like there's this Fear Factor that kind of

25:11
goes into it and of course I don't think that's true of every family um you know

25:16
but I think that is certainly something that is happening and you can see it and like I said it's it's not surprising

25:23
when you see someone with trauma combined with addiction right who's

25:28
Desperately Seeking acceptance and a release from some of the shame sure to

25:34
find some safe havens right sure and again it's not surprising to me that

25:39
that becomes a safe haven in a group of people who say I don't want to look at your problems I want to look at I want

25:46
to celebrate who you are you I mean how refreshing would that be sure and also

25:52
as you were talking about um trauma right trauma is one of the

26:01
biggest uh things in our life that can kind of transform us sure right no doubt and

26:09
another one is addiction sure right yeah um you think about you know just all the

26:14
stories of addiction we've heard and how it can change someone right it's like sure I mean everyone listening can think

26:19
of someone that you know they're not who they used to be they transformed due to an addiction and um thinking about

26:26
sexual addiction again um you know I have a lot of familiar with that familiarity with that concept that's

26:32
also something I struggled with pornography the whole thing and U like you said I you know I've worked through

26:37
that through celebrate covery through the the work that I've done and therefore on the other side I'm able to do a lot of 12 step work working with

26:43
other people and just learning about how that same problem you know exists in so

26:50
many different forms sure and I'm just mostly looking you know having or I

26:56
shouldn't say mostly exclusively talking to males right about this issue and seeing how vast the struggle can be

27:04
there sure um and I recognize like every addiction like you said it starts with a

27:11
single image right sure they can I recognize with every addiction that it continues to grow in its need in its

27:18
hunger right that's that's the nature of addiction that's that is probably the

27:24
single defining characteristic of what we would call addiction is something that doesn't get solved with the next

27:29
usage sure it needs more it needs bigger it needs better you know sure and as you said that image is not enough next time

27:37
now you need it to move now you need it to you know you need it to continue to get stronger in order to give you the

27:43
same high sure right sure that's how that's that's the diminishing returns of

27:48
addiction and so you combine something as traumatic as trauma in your life sure

27:54
that transforms your mind gives you that seat of Shame and then you add something as transforming as addiction that says I

28:01
need more I need more I need more I mean it's to me it's not surprising that you would continue to explore beyond your

28:07
gender Beyond you know whatever and and again the pornog pornographic industry

28:14
benefits from that addiction and they perpetrate it they say well we know you

28:20
know the next step is this so we're going to start you know producing this and we know what the next step is this we're going to produce this um I say all

28:27
that to say the jump is not that high sure you know for for many people sure

28:34
right yeah and so if you're already starting at a deficit of some abuse sure

28:40
early or you know any point and you also struggle with an addiction or you

28:46
struggle again it's not that big of a leap to get to a place where you you need an escape sure right yeah and I do

28:55
think that's one thing that I see offered in that lifestyle sure and that

29:04
doesn't mean an escape from pain or struggle or whatever and in fact if you were to say that to someone who's chosen

29:11
that lifestyle they I would they likely would be angry at the concept that you're saying they chose a path to ease

29:18
their pain because they say no you don't understand the pain that it requires just to live my life agreed right yeah

29:25
and yet there is something there there's acceptance there's a pathway that feels safer than the pathway we're on you know

29:33
sure and I think I say all these things because I want there to be some empathy

29:40
sure and that's not the same thing as acceptance or in this case we want acceptance you know but that's not the

29:46
same thing to as to say like I agree with that choice sure but you should be

29:53
able to get to a place where you can say I understand that choice and I guess I can't say I blame you you know I can't

30:00
even say if I was in the same position and went through the same things I wouldn't make that choice sure we need

30:05
to be able to get there exactly and I think there's a problem right now specifically in the church where we're

30:11
not willing to go there sure right because it's scary because it's that bad it's whatever it's like no if we want to

30:19
have those relationships if we want to be able to offer that same level of Acceptance in those circles we have to

30:26
be able to go there we have to be able to understand that's what empathy is all about sure right and we've talked about

30:32
open-mindedness before and like don't let your brain get so open-minded your brains fall out or whatever sure like

30:38
that's not what we're saying right or that's not what I'm saying no I hear you you know I'm saying be be willing to go

30:44
there so that you can understand how someone gets to where they get and therefore that will naturally loosen

30:51
some of the grit of judgment in your in your heart in your mind yeah your

30:57
thoughts no it's exactly and I and I think about it in this uh I guess I

31:02
think about it sometimes in a in an aspect of false intimacy when I think of you know sexual immorality because I

31:08
think there is a false acceptance that pornography offers you know to you know

31:14
to men as they're you know being you know as that view is being skewed it's

31:19
like this image offers me acceptance but yet there's no reality to it yeah you

31:26
know if I met that actual ual physical person in life they would see all my flaws the same way that you know other

31:33
people do and there wouldn't that that acceptance wouldn't be there that unconditional acceptance wouldn't be

31:40
there and I think you know that also you know goes to the other side of the

31:46
spectrum if you will where you know it's it's between same gender Dynamics and I

31:52
think there is a that like you shared there is that acceptance that's offered there and it I would dare say it's more

32:00
real of course cuz that's another person than just an image you know that kind of

32:05
thing and I think but I for me that's what ties the whole thing together you

32:11
know between the you know LGBT community and you know and this

32:17
this far because I believe it is a spectrum MH and it and it and it's View

32:22
and what it does is it it skews our view of the purpose of gender

32:28
in such a way that it it makes it to where yeah that doesn't really

32:34
matter and yet we'd recognize in some cases it does matter and I think you

32:40
know that's where you know that acceptance of the individual and I would say you know

32:46
regardless of what you know the issue becomes that's what that's what we're

32:52
looking for like you shared is that acceptance and for me a part of the

32:59
issue is because you know my concern and and here here's how I see it

33:06
from a a spiritual standpoint um my concern are women and

33:13
children okay because at the heart of what we're talking about from my perspective are kids who are living in

33:22
confusion and you know and they're talk you know it's not the fact that they're talking about being by or trans or you

33:30
know those kind of things I don't I don't have any issues with kids talking about that because I want to recognize

33:36
in some ways that's a there is a health healthiness to having this conversation

33:43
over gender and yet I also recognize there there is a

33:48
promotion of you know this industry and you know as far as recognizing there is

33:54
a industry that's also tied to transgendering m y and you know we can

33:59
put a link in there's article I read you know um uh transgender Leviathan and it

34:05
goes back to you know how early on and and I I don't I don't think we're here

34:14
by mistake I think you know so much of what we experience today are based on choices

34:23
that were made 30 years ago you follow me I think you you know we we're

34:28
thinking this is something new um we've been you know societies have been here

34:35
before you follow me and and to that degree I think you know I was reading early on like um and it comes back to

34:43
that choice Dynamic to a certain degree Free Will um Ground Zero was a kid who's

34:54
um trying to think of the operation where you what's what what do you circumcision there you go um

35:00
circumcision went bad and they basically said well we can just re make his you

35:07
know Anatomy if you will and turn that individual into a girl and they had a

35:15
twin and and it just you follow me and it just it just went bad from bad to worse based on this

35:23
fact that you know we can just change someone one you know we can avoid this

35:31
this wiring if you will and just change the outside and the inside will follow

35:37
and it it just it just went bad and you know there was the

35:45
individual I think his brother even ended up committing suicide you know it was just a tough thing and the you know

35:51
and the therapist that was dealing with them had them you know um inappropriate relations I'm just

35:59
trying to keep it you know on the on the PG-13 rating here but you know inappropriate relationships even between

36:06
these siblings to you know firm up this this image of what gender you know we

36:13
can make this happen and it just went bad and and you know in that process and

36:19
then for me my concern with the industry

36:24
is like you were saying I want more more I want more I want more and what the

36:31
industry does in that way is if I'm not if there's something wrong with me then

36:37
I have my body parts changed you follow me and that in of itself is an expense

36:46
but yet and this is this is a part of how I see it that's transformed me you know I'm looking at the industry Dynamic

36:53
and I don't like it because what happens is you know it's not just adults that

36:59
are being able to make this choice if you will now it's affecting children and

37:05
kids and you know and we have this this issue in our culture where you know one

37:10
parent is basically saying hey you know Joey or or or Joanie or you know needs

37:17
to change they want to change and they're you know 10 12 years old right

37:23
so we're talking about you know giving them hormone suppressing you know medication and and from my perspective

37:31
that's that's counter to that individual's opportunity to choose if

37:37
you will based on where they're at in life and that's how I'm looking at it as a 50-year-old if I had made if I had

37:43
been able to make so many choices adult choices at the age of you know

37:51
102 you know I would have I'd been a completely different person you know

37:57
and then so I think of it from that perspect go go ahead sorry I was just going to say like you if you're

38:04
12-year-old said I want a tattoo of a Stegosaurus on my sure bicep you'd probably be like mhm wait till you're 18

38:12
you can go get that tattoo of Stegosaurus you know whatever you know you kind of understand that they they're

38:17
not of the the age that it makes sense to make life altering choices right yes

38:23
and you might know this better than me I don't know that that particular ISS of parents forcing the matter is like the

38:32
the biggest issue right now I think that is starting to happen right like I think there's um you I

38:39
agree and and I say that just because I don't want to make it sound like this is

38:44
happening all over the place what I think is happening is that IND like you said there's an industry that's growing

38:50
here and you know this isn't I don't think either of us have the desire to say you're being duped by this industry

38:56
but I also think we do have a desire to say just like pornography just like um

39:02
Weight Watchers just like whatever there are industries that benefit from our dysfunctions right not be aware of that

39:09
and to kind of just take their word like you know this is good for you or whatever there are many aspects of this

39:17
industry that it's in their best interest to say this is good for you and you need to pursue this yes right and

39:25
then it becomes culturally you know understood like yeah

39:31
I heard on a commercial this is good for you so I'm I'm with that right I agree this is good for you and it becomes you

39:37
know perpetrated culturally and I think that's what we're seeing right we we're seeing a natural um acceptance and not

39:44
just acceptance but almost like a pushing of hey maybe this is a choice that would benefit you you know and um I

39:52
think it's just so important to understand the the gears at work right yeah and so that you can at least be

39:58
aware of that as as these considerations are happening or whatever

40:04
um and also like I said there are Industries billion dollar Industries in

40:11
just about every area where we're discontent with who we are yes right yes there's lipos suction there's plastic

40:17
surgery there's whatever right you and I'm I'm not I'm not I'm talking about cosmetic things or you know whatever not

40:24
necessarily um obviously like Vision sure you know there's a practical

40:30
benefit to having better Vision it's usually not uh due to Cosmetics but that

40:35
happens too right sure I don't like what I look like in glasses but uh the point is if there is a place where an industry

40:44
can recognize hey humans aren't happy with themselves this way yes there will be an industry born up to solve that

40:52
sure and I think again it's so important to understand that um and also to

40:58
understand that these industries then become culturally relevant and not that

41:03
um it starts seeping into culture sure so it's no longer just the industry

41:09
pushing it and I think it's important to say it's not like this this huge conspiracy where this industry is you

41:15
know basically puppeting all these people no I think it's it's reached a Tipping Point sure to where it's now

41:22
into some then not just from the industry I also think there's

41:28
yeah yeah and I and I think that's that's where my passion comes from for

41:33
this topic is you know I'm talking with you know young kids and and they're

41:40
planning on when I get you know they're you know 16 13 you know but when I get

41:48
to be an adult you know I want to be able to have parts of my body removed so

41:55
I don't look so m so I don't look so female you know that kind of thing and

42:01
you know and we think about it and I think about it from that aspect of okay you know that's a that's a major deal

42:09
that's a major expense to have that happen to do that and that's just the

42:15
beginning and I'm and here again I'm in agreement with you that this um we're not saying you know people are duped but

42:23
when I'm looking at these adolescents and where they're f focus is Shifting to

42:29
you know kind of kind of like you know the the the American Nightmare if you

42:34
will you know that I'm not it's not the American dream anymore you know in some

42:40
ways because there's this sense that it's unattainable and yet I'm also listening

42:45
to these kids and young adults and they're saying okay instead of Desiring

42:51
to you know have the white pick the house and the white picket fence my desire is to have surgery to change my

42:58
body and you know for me that becomes a concern because you know it's like where

43:05
is that coming from and I understand where it's coming from and yet at the

43:10
same time that's just the beginning if we're looking at an industry and you know that it it it all it doesn't even

43:18
count bring into effect the medications that will be for that person for a lifetime the pharmaceutics involved and

43:25
you know and that and that's where I guess you know I'm I'm not trying to go so far but I'm I'm thinking about how

43:32
that changes a culture you know when that's that's really what my desire is

43:38
and it's based on this inability to find acceptance for who I am the way I am and

43:45
being able to recognize okay yeah it may not be comfortable right now to be who

43:51
you are but yet there's a purpose there's a you know there's a reason why

43:57
you know we're created the way we are and we may not always understand it and

44:03
we especially don't understand it in the light of hurt or or or you know trauma

44:08
that kind of thing and yet from my perspective we can trust the

44:14
plan you follow me and and there is there is hope there is still you know as

44:20
as long as we're alive there's still hope you know and and that's I guess that's where I'm coming from and I don't

44:26
want like you were saying I don't want to make it that you know the industry drives this because I recognize like

44:33
you're saying it it where there is a hurt where there is a habit a hang-up

44:39
there will be an industry to promote that and that's and that's sad to me you

44:47
know it it is sad but it's also the way of the Earth right like it's kind of

44:52
yeah but it doesn't mean that I have to avoid it ignore it based on what it is

45:02
you know just because it's the way of the earth that doesn't mean that we can't do something about it right that's

45:10
and that's and that's where I'm at you know and and that for me that is about you know having the conversations and

45:17
and being able to recognize that there's a you know tremendous amount of hurt you

45:24
know that goes along with this topic and to to add hurt to the hurt is

45:32
irresponsible from my perspective agreed perfect word for it I mean not I would

45:37
even go so far as in some cases abusive right to to perpetrate that yeah that sounds like a good approach well plan

45:44
for that or whatever I mean I think in some cases it's abusive in the sense that that

45:50
child you're giving them the credit of an you know adult decision

45:55
yeah yeah it's kind of like the tattoo thing but just way way way worse right because it's it's a it's a life-altering

46:01
decision that's not just a physical thing and a part of the body that you know is a visual thing like a tattoo I

46:08
mean it is a identity thing right y

46:17
um that I could tell it got got got derailed there for a moment you get you back on track no I

46:24
lost okay well I have some other thoughts but I yeah and I guess where my thoughts go and this is this is where I

46:30
want to come back to is I believe as I shared at the beginning you know everybody knows somebody who's affected

46:38
by lgbtq type Dynamics transgenderism you know and I and I think that's the part

46:46
that makes these topics so difficult if I never knew anyone you know then I

46:55
could it's it's it's like law you know because law can be you know given out or

47:02
you know laid out in such a way that

47:09
avoids the personal aspect in other words a law is fine with me as long as

47:15
it doesn't affect me personally and I think this topic is the same way so we have to be I I believe we

47:23
have to be able to deal with these issues a case by casee person byerson

47:29
type Dynamic and you know and I and I think that's where the discussions come

47:34
into play having the difficult conversations with even people that I know in such a way that says okay tell

47:42
me about your story talk with me and and what did you experience and I'm uh

47:48
personally for myself I'm fine if someone wanted to share their story with

47:53
me that basically said hey you know what I struggle with gender identity and from

47:59
my perspective I never experienced sexual trauma you know I would I would

48:05
love to have that conversation you know to be but unfortunately I think you know as you talked about it you know so often

48:12
we come at it from you don't know me you don't well no you're right I don't but

48:18
tell me about you you know what I'm saying I'm willing to have that conversation because I

48:24
think at times like all of us wherever that shame is in our lives it continues

48:32
to perpetrate against us do you had something you wanted to

48:38
share Yeah couple of things uh I I think again just to rate what you're saying we

48:44
want to have those conversations because we want to get to know you now neither of us are saying we want to have those

48:49
conversations because we think you know that we want to give you an opportunity to convince us otherwise that's not what

48:55
this is about and I think I think it's so important to understand that that's what all of how I see it is about it's

49:00
not about trying to convince you or me and I don't want you to come try and convince me and I don't want to convince

49:06
you I want to have the conversation I want to gain more insight into the a perspective I can't understand fully you

49:13
know um so I think you and I would agree on that concept like we want to hear

49:18
your story if it doesn't match what again our our perspective perspective is

49:25
so that we can grow our perspective right sure um but as you were talking about um what makes the conversation

49:32
difficult is that we have someone in our mind right sure but I also think that's what makes it so important agree and

49:39
that's that's what makes it important that we were able to have the conversation and also is what makes it

49:44
important to have empathy sure because if you don't have that person in your mind then the words that can come out of

49:49
your mouth look a lot worse or can right sure and U it reminded me of this uh

49:55
anecdote in the book uh Atomic habits sure um where he's talking about kind of the value of

50:01
accountability okay um and basically it's this anecdote about this guy who's

50:07
trying to help the government figure out how to implement proper safety measures

50:12
for firing off nuclear bombs okay okay and uh he says this I'm just going to

50:18
read a little segment of it sure my suggestion was quite simple he wrote in 1981 put that nuclear code number in a

50:25
little capsule and then implant that capsule right next to the heart of a volunteer the volunteer would carry with

50:31
him a big heavy butcher knife as he accompanied the president if ever the president wanted to fire nuclear weapons

50:38
the only way he could do so would be for him first with his own hands to kill one

50:43
human being MH the President says George I'm sorry but tens of millions must die

50:48
he has to look at someone and realize what death is what an innocent death is blood on the White House carpet carpet

50:55
it's reality brought home home he said when I suggested this to friends in the Pentagon they said my God that's

51:02
terrible having to kill someone would distort the president's judgment he might never push the

51:08
button and it made me think of that when you were talking about having that person in your head you know what having

51:14
that person in your head can allow you to have the empathy to go you know what this is a living person living breathing

51:21
person that I'm disparaging or teaching my kids to disparage and if they were in

51:27
this room as I had this conversation with my kid MH maybe that would push them towards death towards you know what

51:33
I mean like you know what I'm saying I think the the power of our words and the power of our attitudes towards this

51:39
subject can sway culture you know especially when I consider what we

51:44
believe the power of his kingdom is in this planet right sure um we have we

51:50
have a tremendous opportunity and responsibility to reframe the

51:56
conversation sure to take back this conversation of gender in a way that is accepting and

52:01
loving and embracing sure right so that no longer are we shoving them full force

52:08
into the Arms of an accepting culture saying we don't accept you good luck over there you know but instead we're

52:15
turn turning the conversation to we we're having those accepting conversations we're being the loving

52:20
culture it's not weird to have a transgender friend if you you know go to youth group or whatever right like

52:27
that's the norm that's what needs to happen sure right agreed yeah to where

52:32
that acceptance is there based on who an individual is you know and and I think

52:38
that's that's where it comes back to because I think you know there is an aspect where we accept

52:44
other people for certain things but not other things you follow me and and

52:51
that's where you and granted we're not God in the aspect of you know offering uncondition

52:57
acceptance but yet if we want to be Christlike there is an aspect where I

53:02
like anything I accept you but yet we're going to deal with some of these issues and topics that seem to create a

53:10
lifestyle that is unhealthy for you and I'm I'm saying that across the board you

53:16
know that it it it you know if there's an impact that creates um unhealthy

53:24
relationship you know and granted you know there would be those that might argue what is healthy relationship

53:30
versus unhealthy but I'm willing to recognize you know if it's if it's countered to what I would say is our

53:36
design that's that's where we're going to you know have these conversations you know and so much of

53:41
that can come back to the gender Dynamic but it can also you know deal with my addictions and those kind of things and

53:48
I and I think that's the that's a part of it because I just see you know even

53:53
in as we look at the industries the industry are driven by it's not just

53:59
this you know it's not just the image it's not just okay I may want surgery

54:05
you know it it it's going to grow I'm going to have I'm going to want more I'm going to want different more different

54:13
and you know and that's the consuming part and that's where I want to offer hope at this point and I think you know

54:20
so often it's a matter of in our inability to have conversations it's

54:26
it's like yeah you can it's I look at shame like a door

54:31
okay if I'm on the if I'm on the you know I'll say the outside of the door

54:38
the other side of the door looks very appealing but when I walk through the

54:43
door I get on the other side it's like what are you here for you follow me that

54:48
was dumb that was stupid and it adds to that shame that I feel that was enticing

54:54
me when I was in the other side of the door and that creates that that shame cycle if you will and I think you know

55:02
part of what and once you walk through the door it's often difficult and feels very difficult

55:10
to walk back through it that's right that's right so you and so therefore you're caught in that cycle yep that

55:18
okay once I get to the other side of the door the acceptance that I thought was

55:23
here really isn't here and yet I get caught in that Dynamic that says okay

55:30
well I'm still looking for acceptance and the door is saying well come here come here come here I get to the other

55:35
side that acceptance isn't there now I have to look for the door again that gives me more acceptance you follow me

55:42
and and that's good that's a good I'm thankful for that perspective are you

55:48
bringing that in because I personally talked a lot about that acceptance you know of that culture but I also think

55:55
there's a pretty additional acceptance there yes right yes continue walking this direction and acceptance continues

56:02
but if you walk a different direction I think the same kind of condemnation can

56:09
come you know sure um and it yeah because that's it's human nature it's not not something specific about the

56:15
LGBT community that would be that way it's that every Community can that can

56:21
be that way as long as you look like us and you know act like us well there some

56:26
acceptance but if you start you know not you start rejecting you know and again

56:32
that's a big part of why the Christian Community is that's Christian Community is a human Community yes and therefore

56:40
we do a lot of the stupid human things yeah you know but we have a reputation up to uphold so it looks a lot worse

56:47
when we don't do the thing we're supposed to do sure you know we end up rejecting or whatever but um it has a

56:53
lot to do with that homogeneous nature and once once you don't match what what we expect a Christian sure youth to look

57:01
like you know then then you're out you know you're rejected and again and not

57:06
just youth like you say that goes into adulthood and I want to you know as as you were sharing you know that that

57:13
perspective you know it kind of comes back to where I was initially it's it's that it's the way I view myself it's

57:20
that body image you know that okay there's something wrong with me and I

57:25
think that's that's the power of and I think that's what they you know like when I'm speaking about anorexia but I

57:32
think that's the power of a group dynamic is I'm able to say okay I can

57:38
see you and you look healthy to me but

57:43
yet you're [ __ ] you're saying the same things I'm saying about myself being

57:49
unhealthy and that creates a healthy dissonance to be able to say okay if if

57:56
I'm looking at you and I'm hearing the same things from you that I'm saying maybe what I'm saying isn't necessarily

58:03
accurate just like I'm seeing you and seeing you as healthy you know healthy

58:09
looking that offers me hope yeah that you know okay that that there is there

58:14
is an option to the door and I can go back through the door in such a way and

58:20
I don't have to continue you know walking through that door in the same direction over and over again going

58:27
further and further away from you know towards that non-conditional acceptance

58:35
yeah yeah and go ahead culturally it was we were

58:41
all in agreement that anorexia was bad and therefore we like you said it's it's better than

58:47
it used to be and I do think there's been a lot of efforts towards figuring that out sure but I also think there has

58:53
been a Mis you know a misdirection of those struggles right is kind of what you were hitting

58:58
at in the beginning is that some of those struggles have moved into struggles with gender sure identity

59:04
potentially of course we can't know that but it's it feels like where cultur culturally there was a lot going on you

59:11
know in terms of anorex Bia it's less so now and a lot more gender confusion and

59:16
solving identity woes that way and some of the same dysmorphia of like you may

59:22
see a beautiful woman I see an ugly woman and I want to see less of that you know sure whether it's looking obese or

59:29
looking too male or what whatever that I yeah whatever that is um I

59:35
think this this really important thing to understand is that um we don't solve

59:42
it that easy no right you don't just flip a switch and now I look skinny and you don't flip a switch and now I don't

59:48
look like the gender I hate or whatever um there's still some internal struggles

59:54
that will continue to go on and what benefits us the most is if we can learn to work through those sure this whatever

1:00:02
ends up happening you know gender wise or or um weightwise what really really

1:00:08
really needs to happen is tools need to be learned for dealing with that struggle of nonacceptance of self sure

1:00:15
you know and being able to understand that I'm okay exactly how I am yeah you know and I think that's the identity

1:00:23
struggle with wanting to change you know gender or you know all of that it's just

1:00:28
like I'm not happy with who I am there's not going to be some Eureka

1:00:34
moment of acceptance of who you are on the other side of that door sure most likely yeah right sure no and I and I

1:00:42
think at times we desire something that will fix it yes and that's and it's

1:00:49
promised to us I mean culturally that that is the problem is that you're just you were born in the

1:00:56
wrong gender you just need to switch and this will solve it and there's a big promise yes in the community in the

1:01:03
industries Etc that say this is likely the problem right

1:01:09
and I mean I just don't believe that's true I mean I I yeah yeah I think yeah and so often I

1:01:18
think you know we can it what makes it polarizing is if I'm wrong if I'm on one

1:01:26
end and and you know it's it's that ability to say okay because there's an

1:01:31
irony you know in I think in both ways because if let's just say there I want to

1:01:40
recognize the LGBT community and I recognize that you know what I do you

1:01:47
know if I'm talking with someone about Alternatives especially in you know other areas like Canada or something

1:01:53
that might be labeled hate speech and so therefore you know if I'm on one end of the spectrum I don't want you getting

1:02:00
counseling yeah you know I want you to come my way but if you want to leave I

1:02:05
want you getting counseling because you need to know what you're going to do if you leave one side or the other and

1:02:12
that's that's from my perspective that's where we have to be able to have these conversations because

1:02:19
it just basically promotes that polar Dynamic

1:02:24
yeah in such a way that says okay how do we have these discussions yeah and I

1:02:31
mean it's a it's a big bummer how the conversations have kind of gone like you said in terms of we're all

1:02:39
for yeah culturally it is okay to get uh therapy in hopes of converting from who

1:02:47
you are sure and getting therapy and getting you know help but going the

1:02:53
other direction is very yeah yes yeah very polarized in the sense that you

1:02:59
know the word conversion therapy is illegal in many places and it is cons

1:03:05
it's you might as well say I hate you know hate them if if you're offering the option for them oh it's it is so

1:03:13
polarized you know and yet there should be the ability and option to say you

1:03:18
know what I got at that to and I think I made a bad choice and I want it removed sure like are we saying that that

1:03:25
shouldn't happen there shouldn't be an opportunity for that now

1:03:30
obviously I don't know all of the stories of conversion therapy and I'm sure there's terrible things that happen

1:03:37
that direction and I also know enough about the church to know that we say and do some stupid things so there's

1:03:45
certainly yeah versions of that that are probably nefarious and evil downright evil I'm not I'm not arguing that that's

1:03:51
not the case but to be able to say going One Direction is perfectly okay but going the other direction is not is

1:03:57
where the problem is yes right because if you're saying someone could change

1:04:03
their mind about who they think they are One Direction you have to allow that

1:04:08
same change you have to allow that that can happen right like that someone could say you know what I don't think I'm this

1:04:15
or you know what I think I made a mistake I made a choice when my brain wasn't fully developed if you know if it happened as a child or sure you know I

1:04:23
tried it it didn't solve what I thought it would solve and I want to go back you know like to say that's not that

1:04:29
shouldn't happen or I mean it's like there's no room for that conversation it becomes hate speech it becomes very

1:04:36
polarized and that's disappointing but also not really surprising in terms of

1:04:41
Industry right sure no no doubt there go

1:04:48
ahead uh we are getting close on our time so I was just going to say some stuff about that but I also don't want

1:04:54
to like really enjoying your thoughts on this marks I I also don't want to no I'm

1:05:00
I'm I think at this point you know I've said what I you know it's and uh I just

1:05:06
I just appreciate the opportunity I appreciate the people that listen to us I appreciate you know this opportunity I

1:05:12
I it's it's funny because uh you know there's different topics and and I can honestly say you know this one has uh

1:05:19
had a had an impact on me and you know and that's where I'm happy to not happy

1:05:24
to but willing to you know talk about it but it's it's it's uh I can honestly say

1:05:30
this is one of the first times I've ever felt my my hands just kind of wanting to move in the process because it's uh yeah

1:05:37
it is so personal and it is so polarizing and I feel you know a strong passion about it you know to offer

1:05:43
acceptance for people and meeting them where they're at and yeah just yeah as we've been talking about the subject my

1:05:50
brain's been worrying about how do we label this episode sure because also

1:05:56
recog I don't want to get to I don't I'm not a huge conspiracy theorist but there is a part of me that's concerned that it

1:06:02
could get flagged and thrown out of the platforms or whatever and I don't know it's just been it it is one of those

1:06:09
topics we did it Mark we hit a polarizing topic so congratulations and

1:06:14
we don't mean to make light about this subject but at the same time I think there's room for a little light in this

1:06:20
conversation I think it's okay to to laugh a little bit about it um you know

1:06:25
not just this conversation but all conversations that are a little bit polarizing um and and and humor and I

1:06:32
think that's where where the the levity comes from is the ability to have the

1:06:37
conversation and say okay yeah we had this conversation we may you and I you

1:06:43
know we may agree and yet there are others that that may not and it's like okay that's okay and that is okay yeah

1:06:51
so we laugh at the the ability to have hard conversations

1:06:56
and find them come to in this Dynamic a conclusion and understanding one another

1:07:04
and knowing one another better because of it yep well thank you all for listening and uh that's how we see it

1:07:11
that's how we see [Music]

1:07:18
it hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

1:07:24
do all the the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow

1:07:31
us uh and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out

1:07:37
the email is usow I it.click yep I said dot click as in CLI c k

1:07:48
please tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

1:07:55
[Music]