Mark:

Good morning Justin.

Justin:

Good morning, Mark. Do you remember what we’re talking about?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

No, I mean I meant the audience.

Mark:

Oh, with the audience? I thought you were talking about five minutes ago. I do remember

Justin:

Did the audience remember what we’re gonna talk about? That’s the real question

Mark:

Oh they probably do in the in a in the segue the the way we left the segue last time with the cliffhanger. Dun dun dun dun dun yeah. No, it’s it’s it was uh it was more of a wrestling, I think, for us to catch back up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because you know, two weeks have definitely gone by and it’s like, yeah. being able to come back. I I in all honesty, I would have forgotten.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Because, you know, each each week we kind of bring our own little

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Well what about this topic? What about that topic to the discussion? And it’s like, yeah, I was already I was rare. I my mind was already down another trail. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But it’s a it’s it’s good to come back. Thanks for the reminder.

Justin:

My pleasure.

Mark:

I want to be able to do what we say we’re gonna do when we say we’re gonna do it.

Justin:

That’s right, although stop listening.

Mark:

Well

Justin:

Just kidding. Uh No, last time, so we had a little intermission where we had a a guest last week. So uh probably I haven’t decided yet. This is a little uh what do you call that? Bi foreshadowing baseball. Inside baseball.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right. Where I haven’t decided if I’m gonna release Jeff’s guest one before this one. I kind of feel like I should just put this one next. So

Mark:

I hear where you’re coming from. Yes.

Justin:

So you now you know it’s a struggle to figure that out. It

Mark:

is a struggle. Welcome to How I See It With me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. Anyway, last time we talked about codependency.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we kinda referenced the fact that it’s a big subject, especially if it starts beering into some of the tangential subjects

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We talked quite a bit about the concept of enabling. Um, I think we covered, you know, generally what codependency is as kind of an overarching uh relational theme.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then we kind of broke down the two parts of a codependent relationship kind of typically there’s two pieces to the puzzle there. The two two sides to the equation, the codependent and then what we call the addict, but it can be just the other side, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That uh receives the the codependent behavior and and assumes it. Um And then we said, well, how do you how do we work through that, right? And how do we deal with that? And we started to talk about boundaries. And then when we started talking about boundaries, I said, wait! Wait work. It’ll be good for next week. And you started to say something good and I interrupted you. I’m you know, every time you talk, Mark, I’m like, this is good. Good, good stuff. Yes. I haven’t had my quiet time kombucha yet.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s right. I saw that. That was that was uh that was good. Nice little segue there. Or nice little intro, I should say.

Justin:

I I was hoping you were gonna bring me some but

Mark:

I I didn’t I drank it all dur I drank my quota during quiet time, you know?

Justin:

Good choice So what do you think, Mark?

Mark:

Yeah, boundaries.

Justin:

What do you think about uh boundaries?

Mark:

Oh, there’s a lot I tend to think about boundaries. I I can honestly admit that uh Even though I wanted to do a different uh topic for the morning.

Justin:

You’re still sour about that.

Mark:

No, no, no, I’m not. I’m realizing how how boundaries came into that topic. How I how I actually I can admit I blew a boundary this week. Oh you know, and I think that’s that’s the reality of it is sometimes Um we don’t realize I think I think boundaries can be are great I I think we need them to have healthy lives, you know, as far as where where is the line. But sometimes in the line, you know, we can we can try to get so close and we might not even necessarily realize when we cross over. until someone else may bring that to our attention. Or there’s a point where circumstances come into play. I wasn’t necessarily, you know, I can be tired, I can be hungry, you know, those kind of things. that kind of factor into the situation. And I think that’s what makes it difficult. And that that’s where the the part Where I s mentioned last time Lizzie and I were talking about uh our

Justin:

formulas.

Mark:

Formulas, yes. Our desire for formulas. Because if I do this and I do this and I do this, then boom, this is what happens. And I don’t think life is typically that way

Justin:

It’s not formulaic.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Love the Lord your God, you know, love others, you know, those kind of things. That’s what God talks with. Keep him first, okay? Well, what does it mean to keep him first? Does that mean I have to have the first hour of my day spent with him? Well, maybe for some people, but not for others. You follow me? What does it mean to love other people? And Lizzie and I were having the discussion because um she had to write a paper that was based on what they what were they were referring to as two books. And, you know, it was the it was defining the the books of science because science wants to prove something and it’s gotta be you know attainable it’s gotta be measurable all that and the s and and scripture So how do you how does a scientist, okay, hold on to their spirituality, if you will, and yet still value science? Because it can seem in our culture That those two things are polar opposite. You can’t necessarily, you know, hold on to your Christian values and be a scientist. And I think, you know, that’s where the discussion came into play. And I think, you know, that’s where so often our our boundaries need to be drawn is between being able to blend two things that seem as if they’re on opposite ends of a spectrum. We all know people who are typically uh who typically think in black and white. It’s either or. You know, and so often we recognize there’s a lot of gray in life. And we have to be able to say, okay, how can I blend those two? Because I can’t typically make it one or the other. And so often what I end up finding myself doing is flip-flopping. If if I’m really stuck in that black and white, I just kind of find myself flip-flopping from one end of the spectrum to the other. And I think that’s where boundaries come into play for me. And I’ll I’ll admit, you know, where uh the the part that I was coming to is um I think, you know, each person kind of has to develop that within the relationships around them. And, you know Sometimes I I think that’s what makes relationship so valuable because we can uh help others and others help us kind of define what boundaries look like. And yet at the same time, that’s where I also recognize that my boundaries tend to impact, you know, my family, my wife. If am I limiting it, this is where it came from. Am I doing a sufficient job of limiting my work from coming into my family? time or you know our christening my couple time you know to be able to say okay there’s a point where you know I can work Very hard for a season, maybe, but yet when does that season end? Where is the boundary po to where this is circumstantial, we’ll do it this long, and but then we’re gonna cut that day. We’re gonna start cutting the time back as far as how much I’m working, even if it’s a seasonal thing. Because it if we don’t have boundaries, we just continue to press that envelope. And you know, and You know, ten hour days turn into twelve hour days and

Justin:

we kind of flow with the river. If the river slowing upstream, you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And or s it can go the other way too where it’s like I’m caring less and less and less about my job and you know, risking losing a job or whatever. Like we can go, you know, butt tip if we don’t Yeah, make course corrections.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting.

Mark:

And I think I think from my perspective too, I think Our priorities are reflected in our boundaries. I can’t say that something is important to me. You know, and and therefore not allow any time for that in my day. To where if there’s if if my family is important, I’m gonna establish boundaries around that. My relationship with Chris, you know, my relationship with God, you know, kind of working, it’s like I’m taking that in into context of being able to say, okay, how much time am I spending in both? Because I believe, you know, our lives are finite. We can’t, you know, we I’ll I’ll catch myself every now and then say I I can make the time to do that. No, nobody can make time, you know And yet our tendency is to say, what we’re doing is I’ll I’ll I’ll put that priority over something else.

Justin:

I would like AI to figure this out. How to allow us to make more time.

Mark:

There you go. Yes. Yeah. You could be a wealthy man.

Justin:

Yeah. I know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I’m on it.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um Yeah, I mean that’s a a great point that time is our single resource in life that you cannot add more or take away. Like it is what it is and there’s no cheating it. Um so that’s a good uh point for a boundary marker, right, is time time spent. Um would you say, in your experience personally and certainly in counseling, that boundaries How important are they to A an unhealthy relationship? And B a healthy relationship. I guess I could summarize it by saying all relationships. But I guess I kind of want to understand both can sides of that continuum. And I have a hunch, but I yeah, I would love uh yeah.

Mark:

I I’d I’d say it’s very important to both.

Justin:

Yeah. Equally, right.

Mark:

Yeah. If I have a difficult relationship, it’s probably due to my lack of boundaries. And if I have a good relationship, it’s probably in part due to my definition of boundaries.

Justin:

That’s good. That’s that’s kinda was my hunch. I’m like I think maybe sometimes we think of boundaries as something unhealthy people have to do.

Mark:

Sure. And I think it cr I think boundaries create healthy relationship because we’re able to define them in such a way that says, this is too far. Because when I’m by myself, you know, I may I may need just that that reminder. And yeah, and I I think first and foremost, God gets to define that, you know, and then you know, Chris and I work together at saying, okay, you know, how much is too much to spend without talking about it. You follow me? Because like you say, I mean that that used to be a uh a hot button for Chris and I.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Just based on how we grew up so differently was finances.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So being able to understand, okay, I can spend Up basically right up to fifty bucks or you know, give or take around fifty bucks, you know, that no problem. But you know, if we start talking five hundred You know, I’m not gonna do that without necessarily talking with Chris because that’s a that’s a financial boundary

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, I don’t have to tell her, you know, if I’m buying a pack of gum.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because that’s too far in the other direction. She trusts me at that part, but it’s just she takes care of the finances primarily and if I’m spending big allotments without her knowing of it on a routine basis, it makes her job very difficult.

Justin:

Yeah. So this this gets into your formulas thing, okay? So In your relationship, there’s there’s a boundary and it lies right around the $50 mark and it ties directly into your specific relationship.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um I could flip the script and say how much what’s the dollar amount she can spend without consulting you? And and the numbers probably a lot higher. Based on just knowing Mark.

Mark:

Actually, I would

Justin:

know.

Mark:

No, it’s fifty for her as well. Oh, okay. You follow me to where

Justin:

Is that like a just an agreed thing that you came to it?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah. That’s that’s a boundary for both of us to where she and and like you say, it’s not

Justin:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to leave the question, but I think that’s a good thing.

Mark:

Yeah. Now does that mean that I don’t trust her to she is she’s in charge of finances. Now if she needs to spend two thousand dollars I’m really fine with that.

Justin:

Yeah. Because you trust that she knows because she knows what’s going on. Exactly.

Mark:

And yet I would I would be surprised if she were to do that without saying anything to me. It would come as a surprise this this you know at this point in our relationship if she were to do that. Because I know, you know, as she spends, it’s like she wants me to know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So that I can plan accordingly too. But yeah, it’s not, and that’s where I think so often boundaries can be confusing is because it it seems as if well you don’t trust me.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yet at the same time, what it comes down to is there is a healthy understanding. if you will, that says, okay, if this is gonna happen, we’re gonna have a discussion about it. And I think that’s the difference, you know, between healthy because if a in a unhealthy relationship Well, you don’t trust me, I should be able to do whatever I want to do.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Well, all we’re really doing is creating reactivity around trust.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Because don’t tell me what not what I can’t do with that kind of thing. But you know, and that’s where that’s where, you know, relationships get difficult.

Justin:

Yeah. Again, it’s the the formula thing doesn’t work if you try to apply it to boundaries like oh Mark’s and Chris is fifty dollars. So

Mark:

I

Justin:

really like that. I’m gonna Tell my spouses what we have to do and like you know, it might be a good I I’m not you know that’s a perfectly great guideline and I think if any Here’s the thing, if any couple agreed this is that boundary, this is where we want to do it, then it’ll work just great. It’s more about kind of figuring out the formula for your your marriage. And the reason I the r the leading question I asked you is because I think the amount I spend versus the amount Megan would spend. Like her caring what I spend, she cares more than uh what I care about her spending. Because like you said, she does the finances and I just kind of trust that and uh I don’t even check the bank so I I would I wouldn’t really necessarily know, you know. Um and you know that So far works for us, works great. You know, we don’t have an agreed amount or whatever, but I definitely know when I went o over it.

Mark:

How did you find that out, Justin?

Justin:

No, actually it’s yeah. I I’m we’re like you and Chris in the sense that we communicate most of the time when there’s any kind of significant expense. So it’s not, you know. Um but definitely learned it by, yeah, probably making some assumptions early on in marriage. But honestly I can’t remember A specific, but I just know, yeah, you can’t you come to that through learning. But um

Mark:

Well I I have a specific. I’ll be honest with you. No, it was a hundred and twenty-five dollars something. Yes. And that’s where the w the 50 came from or started to come from because I this is what made it a hot topic. This is this is Going back to unhealthy Mark and Chris on finances, I would a lot when b early on, I would a lot, you know, I would bring home you know, all that I made. But you know, if somebody gave me some cash or something, you know, that was kind of mine as I saw it at back then. Okay. And so that was available. That was kind of a slush fund, if you will. You know?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I had my little

Justin:

Keep it in the Cayman Islands or

Mark:

No, I could keep it in my pocket for the most part. It wasn’t that much. But at the same time, you know, I I wanted a um I wanted a shotgun reloader, a shotgun shell reloader. And I got to that point, $125. I, you know, purchased it, paid for it, you know, and it’s like you know, Chris eventually found it in a closet, you know. It’s like, what’s this and how much? And, you know, and I really had to, you know, it wasn’t that she was out of line for asking all those questions, but I also recognized how that broke a trust to a certain degree. Not that we had that boundary in play, but it’s like How can you can have your funds and you know that kind of thing? So yeah.

Justin:

So

Mark:

that was an unhealthy aspect for us. So now b establishing a boundary that says, okay, I’m not spending this. And it doesn’t matter what it’s necessarily on. It can, you know, for job, for the house, you know, it’s just communicating that.

Justin:

So that that’s a great segue into um kind of how do how do you how do you get to where you establish a boundary and it this is the sticky point. This is where a lot of people run into trouble is they don’t realize that often boundary because again there’s not a formula to say, hey, when X happened, you know, X, Y, Z level is reached. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, go into negotiation mode, build a boundary, and continue forward, right? Like there’s no formula for that. So how do we usually find out a boundary is needed?

Mark:

We usually find out about it through conflict.

Justin:

Crossing over or whatever that boundary Yeah, un unspoken boundaries, right? So that’s what happened with the shotgun reloader. It’s like there wasn’t a spoken boundary, but there certainly was you know, an uh an an uh implicit or implied or uh expect expect let’s say expectation ‘s a good word. Because I think uh I don’t think it’s a boundary until those expectations are communicated. So

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Mm so this gets to my point, which is how do you get to a boundary? Well you usually cross over there’s a conflict, like you said, and there needs to be a conversation.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that conversation is about assessing need, about assess you know, c communicating communicating needs, communicating expectations, and figuring out how how to move forward. Now, the reason I say it’s a sticking point is because a lot of times, especially in in immature relationships, that conversation is can be uh seen as like a a relationship ending conversation. Like you don’t you don’t trust me.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You you want me to be somebody I’m not.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Mm-hmm. Like that’s a pretty common thing. Like You want me to be someone who just reports to you every time I spend m money on a pack of gum, and I’m never gonna be that person. You do you want me to be someone I’m not, right? It can it can quickly go that direction. Um especially if there’s not already patterns of health uh relational health in in a couple, right? Or you know, uh two people in a relationship, sure. And so it can quickly divulge into in the to into th into that kind of thing. But the way I see it is a real relationship is born out of those conversations and when you start to realize where the boundaries need to be and you start to establish them and then you’re able to move forward with with proper boundaries in place and also learn how to build boundaries in a relationship.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like that is key to a healthy relationship is not just building a relationship, but learning that that s uh s process is necessary probably throughout the life of the relationship as more expectations are surfaced or

Mark:

sure you know

Justin:

implied expectation you know those things kind of surface and to be able to have a conversation say like I think this is something you you’ve mentioned before. Help me understand. You know, or you can come to those conversations. Help me understand. how the shotgun reloader showed up in this closet.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That kind of thing. Um and again, I think the more you’re able to work through those things the better it it the easier it becomes to build boundaries in those places and be able to say, Hey, this worked last time Let’s talk about it for this thing, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What are your thoughts on that?

Mark:

Oh no, I I was I was actually uh coming back to that and I think You bring up a great point. Um, from my perspective, it made sense to be able to do that. But yet I’m gonna admit now, okay, I should have been able to talk with Chris about that. Because I I would admit that there was a part of me that says I can do this on the sly.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I think that’s where we’re that’s when when I start to think, and I think this is maybe part of the formula as we’re talking through, when I start to think that it won’t matter or they don’t need to know , I’m probably crossing over a boundary.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good.

Mark:

Because realistically If there’s something that I can honestly say I didn’t think about it, it wasn’t a big I I didn’t realize it was crossing a boundary where you’re concerned.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But so often what happens is I just want to do what I want to do, and I don’t want to have to deal with you disagreeing with me.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Or

Justin:

like have to make a case.

Mark:

Yes. Do you know have to have a discussion?

Justin:

Which sounds like the the thing in you that said I’m just gonna kinda use this money I got over here and this I ‘m gonna do this not necessarily consult her because I kinda wanna avoid that conflict

Mark:

yes

Justin:

means that there was also some boundaries that need to be established from your side. It wasn’t just Chris needing to build a boundary with people, hey, you know, there needs to be a limit to that. But also there need to be a boundary on your side and it’d be like Hey, I shouldn’t be trying like I mean this is what you

Mark:

I shouldn’t be deceptive.

Justin:

Right. I shouldn’t be trying to avoid a conversation with Chris about spending. I should I should want that conversation.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And if I don’t, there’s something going on in the relationship that needs some boundaries, that needs some improvement. Both But instead it went the other way and

Mark:

I did my own thing.

Justin:

Yeah, and the boundary had to be created regardless. But the you know Um

Mark:

and I think to your point too, uh when you were, you know, talking about uh being able to do that within a relationship, and granted I would say, you know, you and I, you know, need boundaries just like every, you know, r you know, romantic relationship, friend relationship, business relationship, you know. All need boundaries. In other words, that’s why we define a work day.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in most places. You know, you can’t do that.

Justin:

Yeah, because boundaries can sound Confining or scary or whatever, but sure. You operate by boundaries through the right. Everyone does, yeah.

Mark:

If you don’t

Justin:

If you choose not to operate boundaries, eventually you’ll operate by the boundaries of jail cell bars.

Mark:

You know, I mean, you know, January first. It’s typically a new year’s a new year boundary, you know.

Justin:

For you, Mark. That’s your crucible

Mark:

Yes. Coming back to what I wanted to say, you know , when uh help me the the part where you said help me understand. Yeah. I think what happens is boundaries make perfect sense Based on my personal dynamic. Okay. The way I grew up, you know, my boundaries make sense to me.

Justin:

Right. It’s like obviously you’d ask me about spending $150. That’s what everybody does. You’re weird. Right? Or vice versa. Well, there

Mark:

again, it’s uh yeah, it could be in the other direction. It’s like No, it’s like I didn’t necessarily grow up the same way. And that’s where

Justin:

obviously you understand if I have 150 bucks in my pocket, I get to Spend it. I mean that’s just what normal people do, right?

Mark:

But the interesting part is it’s really about intimacy when I’m able to understand where your boundary comes from And my care about it. Yes, and my need to respect that in such a way that can establish trust. Because if I’m just saying your boundary doesn’t matter, okay, and and granted, I understand, you know Uh Chris’s I think we’ve mentioned it even in Wives, but you know, Chris’s father grew up in industry, he had lost his job a couple times, you know, they had had to They had had to move. So there were times where I realized she didn’t necessarily know where the next paycheck may be coming from. You know, not in a you know, her dad was a good provider, but you know, in that industry. in manufacturing industry, you know, that was that was part of that era and time. And I can remember family members, you know, around us that kind of fell into that even though we grew up in this different areas. And yet my father d did the same job, you know, from the time I was born until, you know, he he retired from that job I think he had like fifty or sixty years in type, you know, fifty years type. I remember, you know, to where that my my perspective

Justin:

It’s money in the bank.

Mark:

Was was different. Yeah. Completely different.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I realized how what I did was basically a trust violation. And I think so often it’s in the ability to understand how important these boundaries are to the other individual. You know, based on where they’ve come from. And I think, you know, I’ll run into that so often with, you know, people, people, people who have never experienced abuse have a hard time. recognizing where this is where this you know this narrow bound where these narrow boundaries or confining boundaries are coming from within relationship when they’re entering into relationship with somebody who may have experienced hurt or abuse. You follow me? Yeah. Because that person is definitely gonna have

Justin:

Yeah. They’ve been trounced on.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right into the it’s like, why don’t you have that normal boundary that most people do? It’s like, well, it was beat out, you know, or whatever. So it can kind of go both ways even in that. Again, formulas, right? Like there isn’t a perfect formula, it really comes down to the formula is this if you’re in a relationship with somebody, there will need to be boundaries established eventually.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

There is, however what we call the honeymoon period of a relationship. Right? Where everything about that person is great. And why isn’t everyone like this person? This person’s great. This relationship’s great. We’re best friends. There’s nothing wrong here. We won’t ever even need to set any boundaries because we’re so in line and alike in you know right like

Mark:

Well, and the fact that he’s he’s spontaneous and I’m so, you know, routine and I just love that spontaneity. You know, ’cause we just do exciting stuff all the time.

Justin:

You know, as we’re talking a lot about couples right now, but I have uh also r uh my my daughter’s been, you know. sharing with me some struggles with relationships in high school and all that. And just like so I have a lot of that in mind too, of like she’ll get a new friend and like they are just they have a blast. Like they’re just the best. And this person’s the best and That person thinks me as the best.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and it’s like kind of that same what I call the honeymoon period where you’re kind of blind to the defects. Or like you said, you see him with rose colored glasses. So it’s like They’re so different than me and it’s the best thing in the world. Sure. Um but yeah, so the one constant, the one formula is that if you want a long term relationship, it will require boundaries to be established at some point.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You have to understand that, you have to be willing to do it. And then also, um, no long term relationship is built without some difficult conversations building boundaries and so recognizing that first one that happens is not the end of the relationship. And again, this is I’m thinking about my daughter.

Mark:

It’s all good.

Justin:

Kind of the high school drama. It’s like, you know the the honeymoon period ends and it’s like well that person doesn’t consider me in this way and and it hurts my feelings and when I told tell them that they said you you want to change me. You don’t want me to be who I am kind of thing. It’s like Yeah, this this can feel like like end of a relationship or like and that’s the thing with boundaries. Um Is understanding, depending you know, depending on how deep you are in a relationship, that a re a life without that relationship may be more healthy if you cannot have a one boundary setting. conversation. If you can’t get through that first one or the second one or third. You know, like if you can’t work through boundary setting together, then that’s not a healthy relationship that you’re able to remain in

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think that can be that has to so getting back to some of those the codependency that we talked about last week or la you know, two weeks ago, but maybe last week. For you the listener, exactly. We haven’t decided yet

Mark:

To be determined.

Justin:

TVD. Um, yeah, getting back to codependency. Um, that can be the really difficult thing because in codependency, um, the person who is the codependent Needs the addict. That’s kind of what we talked about last week.

Mark:

Or

Justin:

two weeks ago.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Last week, folks. It’s gonna be last week from here on out because I won’t Anyway, that’s what we talked about is this idea that an addict has uh you know, very visible and obvious um problems in the relationship, the addiction. But a codependent looks like the healthy one but re really we talk about they’re as sick as the addict for uh different reasons and part of that is they need an addict. They need someone in their life that they can fix that they can you know and in A lot of codependents are in denial about that and they will be like, No, I don’t that that’s not true at all. I’m perfectly fine. I don’t need that. People just gravitate to me ’cause I’m really good at solving problems. Yes, exactly. Um, y and so having that conversation. But the hard thing is if you’re in a relationship like that, there’s kind of this codependent magnet, you know, we’re like, I need that person. And so when you say you gotta set some boundaries, yeah, but it’ll push them away.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yes. Exactly. That’s that’s it.

Mark:

It’ll push them away or create change. That’s the that’s the reality. Right. Yes.

Justin:

Yep. And Again, depending on how good you are at setting boundaries or how uh the precedent you’ve set, I would I would say often in unhealthy relationships, whether I think of you know, teenage drama or, you know, an addict and a codependent and just kind of not having the functionality of a, you know, good functional relationship. The first boundary that’s you know, like the first real boundary is gonna push people away in an unhealthy relationship. But like you said, that doesn’t mean that’s the end of the equation and therefore they’re gone. Like you said, it can produce that change, ideally will produce that change. That that is the motive what you know the motive for it. Sure. Well, there’s two motives. Maybe more. My my health.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

And the improved relationship.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And often when we’re pushing for a codependent to have those conversations to set those boundaries It’s in light of this is for your health.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

A number one. Yep. Most important thing in without your health. your relationships doomed sure to be crappy one way or another.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So you have to establish health. That’s that’s goal number one.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Goal number two is that this will improve the relationship because that person will then it will create uh change, right? It’ll be a uh catalyst, it’ll it yes, catalyst it’ll speed up the change, right?

Mark:

It will promote change.

Justin:

Promote change, yes. Yes. Uh but there’s no guarantee. So you have to enter that n negotiation, that contractual negotiation, understanding that a result of this might not be the ideal, which is it creates change. Or initially it might look like no, it went So far the wrong direction.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

In understanding, like that’s not the end of the equation. Yeah. Your thoughts.

Mark:

No, that’s what I was thinking, you know. I mean, um I was the the that quid pro crow pretty quid pro comes to mind, you know, because you know That doesn’t necessarily work. If you do this, I’ll do that. You know, that kind of thing. You know, that that breaks down to boundaries. In in boundaries.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s that’s a bad pattern. That’s that formula doesn’t work.

Mark:

Exactly. And that’s and that’s so but that’s what we often go to. You know, and uh you would uh last time, uh last week’s uh yeah podcast you had mentioned too um the the friend that had the son Um you had mentioned a family dynamic as well. And I want to

Justin:

go with Stephen Covey, actually, right? Maybe.

Mark:

I thought you were talking with a family And you were trying to you were their their son was an addict and

Justin:

oh yeah yeah yeah

Mark:

that there again that’s where that same dynamic comes into play Because so often it’s difficult to establish that boundary that says, no, we’re not going to do that anymore for you. You follow me, that’s a boundary. And we’re starting to establish that. And there again, that isn’t an effort to be mean. Right. promote change and learn responsibility.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s where, you know, ultimately that’s the goal is that we are learning because I what you mentioned earlier in relationship You know, early on, we don’t need so many boundaries necessarily because we’re responsible for less. We kind of come together, I’m responsible for me, and you’re responsible for you, and we’re learning how to take care of one another. But ultimately, as we come together, there are there’s more finances. There’s children, there’s other relationships, you know, and that ability to be able to say, okay, with responsibility comes, you know, that that desire for more boundaries. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, that’s a that’s a that’s something we don’t necessarily recognize coming into relationship because we realize I I’m gonna look at what it what it is to mean. Sure, we may have a conversation, how many kids do you want? Da da da da da But what does it mean to be a father? What does it mean to be a mother? What does it mean to, you know, raise a family? How how often are we gonna do this or that? You follow me? And all of those are kind of opportunities to be able to say, okay, what do I think about this and what do you think? Tell me what you think. And that helps us establish those boundaries. In that dynamic that says, okay, this is healthy relationship, the ability to talk about these things and accept influence from one another.

Justin:

Yeah, you got me uh you got my brain worrying again. You’re good at that, Mark.

Mark:

Go for it. Uh share your worrying.

Justin:

All right. Here’s my worrying. Uh no, so here’s the thing I recognize that I think in our ideal world up in here, I’m holding my hand up. Like this this w ideal world that we kind of see in our brain of what it looks like. Um That no boundaries seems like the ideal relationship. Like we don’t have boundaries because we’re that close, we’re that tight, we’re that healthy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. Um, and the idea of boundary sounds like well that sounds like you you guys have some you know, problems that you’re just mm a accounting for or or um compensating for, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um the problem is You know, that vision that you might see, like if that’s kind of your vision of the ideal relationship is there’s no boundaries, we’re just that we we we just know each other so well, we never step on each other’s toes, all that kind of thing To me, that’s just as viable as communism, right? So communism as an ideal is actually pretty great. Like everyone pitches in, does their part. It’s equal opportunity, equal sharing Um, but in that bubble of unreality, there is no resentment. There is no m uh there’s always ambition, despite, you know, the the result being the same as the next guy, right? So my ambition’s the same whether whether I get the you know a bigger opportunity out of my ambition or not, I’m gonna be just as ambitious. Like in that bubble. There’s a lot of things we just kind of assume are there, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like and so to me again it’s It’s not reality.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

And reality requires adjustments for humanity. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so that’s where, you know, and capitalism certainly has its downsides, right? Um but you know, the way that uh the United States of America was established was saying, you know what, we understand reality represents It’s a lot of bad bad characteristics in people and so we want to build a government that kinda has as many checks and balances as w as we can imagine. Like let’s just figure out all the ways we can add a check and a balance and let’s in s inject it. So let’s have three branches, let’s have this one be able to nego negate this one’s ability here and this one’s ability you know, the ability to negate this And then you know what else? Let’s make sure that they are accountable to the people they’re ruling. And we’ll do that by da da da da, right? Yeah. And so they just figured out like The reality is humanity is pretty messed up, so we need to build a system that accounts for that as best as possible. And you know what we came up with is the worst government except for all the others.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think that was a Benjamin Franklin question. Yeah. Um you know, and basically it’s this this idea that we we no understand reality and we’re trying to build uh a government based on what reality looks like, not some pie in the sky ideals. Like like communism that says, well if we all just pitch in, everyone will you know, all a rising side Rising tide uh raises all boats. And so they’re like, well, let’s force a tide, let’s force everyone on this tide, let’s you know, like make sure that this happens and what ends up happening is all boats sink You know, it’s it ’cause of humanity um and and kind of the con consequences there. Um so anyway, back to boundaries I think that same thing happens where we have this ideal vision of what it will look like, but it doesn’t count account for reality, which isn’t First and foremost and most importantly, I’m human. I’m messed up. It’s not about my partner being human and messed up. It’s about I’m gonna I’m gonna step on toes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I’m going to.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it I may not even recognize the ways that I do step on toes until I get into a relationship where there’s actually a real boundary having conversation. And so often you’ll find that too, like i i in especially in recovery or like, you know, rec I say recovery because a lot of times that’s where uh a lot of dysfunctional relationships are and they’re born from other dysfunctional relationships. So there’s these patterns in their life. where they may have never had an an actual healthy convers uh healthy relationship where boundaries were set. So the very first time someone sets a boundary say, hey look, when you talk like that it hurts my feelings. They’re like, no one’s ever told me that. You’re lying You’re wrong.

Mark:

Sure. Right? Yeah.

Justin:

I think that can be the difficult or as a ch a child, right? Like I think about again, m me as age is like, you know, someone setting a boundary with her or vice versa. It’s like, well, no one’s ever told me, you know I’m too I’m too much, right? So sure. So because no one’s ever told me you’re the only one, clearly you’re the messed up one here

Mark:

Sure. No, I hear you.

Justin:

And so I guess back to the boundary thing. Number one, I messed up. And number two, my parent my partner is as well. And that’s okay. So I have to be gracious to that. to them to my partner and also understanding that I that I mess up and be gracious when when they come to me with boundaries. What are your thoughts?

Mark:

No, I I agree and as that’s where I come back to that ability to accept influence with one another from one another is is that is that part that basically says, okay, yeah, we can definitely work this through or we can’t based on you’re not understanding where I’m coming from based on how important this boundary is to me.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And To be fair, I don’t think uh a lot of those conversations come from a healthy perspective of like, I’m just trying to set a proper boundary here. But you’re not understanding that it’s more. More often you do don’t even know that’s what you’re doing. You’re just mad that that person stepped on your tone and say that hurt Stop stepping on my toe. Why do you step on my toe? That’s rude of you. Don’t you realize that you’re stepping on my toe? Why would you do that?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

People don’t step on my toes. Only you do. You know, it’s like yeah we usually don’t come at it from the mark uh counseling version of like, you know, I’m trying to set a boundary.

Mark:

Well, and it and I was thinking about that, you know, so often that lack of boundaries seems personal, like you’re saying It’s something you don’t like me. You want me to change. And it’s like, no, it’s just a matter of a transition. We’re we’re we want to do this in a way that’s healthy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so often, like you’re saying, it’s it’s that it’s that resistance to growth, I would say. And here again, I’m not just trying to, you know, add my point by tie and growth to that, but it is a it is a defining that helps me recognize that this behavior isn’t necessarily beneficial to the relationship.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, when when we’re able to, like you shared, you know, or I shared, you know, when I was able to say, okay, yep, I’m respecting the fact That I need to change because my desire at times when I have funds, you know, early on was to do my own thing my own way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Which is counter to relationship.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And and if I’m and and I think so often You know, finances is just one part of that.

Justin:

Yes, right.

Mark:

You know, and I and I see it, you know, with kids. It’s like just that of raising kids. to be able to say, okay, what is how much how much TV time? How much screen time is too much? How much, you know, how often do we see, you know, extended family? you know, based on our circumstances, where we where we live, where they live, you know, just kind of

Justin:

How do we discipline?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Because so often, uh like what you shared, you know Unfortunately, sometimes without those conversations, resentment is created.

Justin:

Sex is another one in marital relationships where I’m not obviously not gonna go into detail, but yeah, just the conversations about what the expectations are and and on both sides, right? Yeah. And communicating those and coming to a place of proper boundaries that says I respect and love you and therefore don’t want to cross your boundary and vice versa, I respect and love you and therefore don’t want to cross your boundary, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And but you know That sounds weird in the in in the i idea of sex, but it’s these idea of expectations and communicating them and being able to come to a you know, an understanding, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think that’s what you know, good boundaries establish is an understanding, a mutual understanding that is agreed on, you know, and and able to be respected. That’s the good a a result of a good boundary.

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s where I’m saying I I think from my perspective it comes back and having those conversations build intimacy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because at that point I understand should. Oh yes, I can, or and I have the ability to understand how important this is to you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I can recognize, okay, finances may not be that important to me, but I recognize it is to you. Sex may be more important to me and you’re willing to recognize that, you know, or however that works in that dynamic to be able to say, okay, yeah, if this really isn’t such a big deal to me, then why am I arguing about it so much? You know, and I think there is something to be said for, you know, even even uh even having that discussion in such a way that says, okay, on a scale of one to ten. How important is this to you? Because this this topic that we keep arguing about, okay, how important is it a scale of one to ten? Well, if it’s a ten to you and it’s a one to me, it’s like For crying out loud. Why am I even arguing about this anymore?

Justin:

That’s really good. Yeah. And it’s and figuring out what are my hills I am willing to die on. Yeah. And those would be the good places to put a boundary because without them you’ll you’re willing to die. Like the the ten ones, right? Yeah. The eight to tens. are probably worth putting boundaries and everything else is worth having. Some compromise in being able to ebb and flow too because I think sometimes Yeah

Mark:

And I think there is an aspect of ebb and flow. And I think we have to be able to Um I I’m gonna come back. I guess I I’m gonna come back to trust. Um because ultimately I think part of a boundary Is this ability to say, okay, there might be times even in healthy relationship where I cross it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s gonna be a dynamic that’s circumstantial. Okay. And it and understand w and we can both understand that it’s not necessarily malicious.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And we’re gonna be able to look at a pattern. We’re gonna be able to look back and say, okay, is this something that’s been occurring all along? Or is this something that is circumstantial? that just happened in a moment and I’m willing to say, yep, that happened in a moment. Because uh the the part that I started with, it’s like uh I my answer in the phone call. I answered a phone call at like ten o’clock at night. You know, and I didn’t limit my work boundaries. And at the same time, it was one of those things I had just picked up my phone to to to Google something in a conversation and that was the moment that that my phone rang.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So my thumb just kind of went impulsively. Yeah, I d and and and that’s not justification. No, yeah. It’s just a circumstance. that basically says that’s kind of what happened and I didn’t stop my fault. Right. I didn’t stop to think about this is a boundary violation.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. To be able to say, yeah I can let it go to voicemail. Right. But yet in my hand it was like and you know, it’s like, oh, this person, da-da-da, you know. But I I recognize, you know, in hindsight and, you know, through conversation, you know, it’s like I need to, you know, have that boundary established and and most times I would. It was just that circumstantial. And I think You know, m my example’s a poor one in the in the context of uh such a limited time. But I think, you know, there are aspects where Health issues come into play. Okay. Can I do in other words if I’m a typical re if I’m typically responsible and you know and timely and motivated and helpful, okay. Um, and suddenly something happens to me physically, okay. Say, you know, um I have a heart condition or whatever, you know, and I I have to have surgery. So therefore I go into surgery, you know, and I come out. I’m gonna, I’m gonna need some time. I’m not gonna come out of surgery and be

Justin:

firing all cylinders

Mark:

and fi exactly. Firing on all and I think that i is just as tough on boundaries sometimes because we get so used to you doing what you do to combine with what I do to combine. And now you’re no longer doing what you did.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And being able to recognize

Justin:

we need contract negotiation.

Mark:

Yes, but being able to recognize, okay, this is circumstantial.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that that’s where even margin comes into play, which is maybe a separate topic, but that we’ve talked about it, you know, that margin to be able to say, okay, are we operating so close? to the edge of the boundary that if something changes we automatically cross over.

Justin:

Yeah That’s good.

Mark:

And I think, you know, that’s where the the boundary because I think boundaries, okay, are healthy.

Justin:

That phone just crossed my boundary.

Mark:

Hopefully that was your your boundary crossing, not mine. No

Justin:

Oh actually it might have been this.

Mark:

That’s all right too. Sorry. I it I think that’s where boundaries come into play because we need to be able to set them. a little further in than we talked about at the end of last session than the edge of the cliff.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If our boundary is right at the edge of the cliff. And suddenly you have to go or I have to go in for surgery.

Justin:

I trip.

Mark:

You trip. Our finances change. Okay. Then we’re automatically over the cliff.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So boundaries are are designed to be able to allow some margin in our time and you know to be able to still pry make our priorities, keep our priorities, you know, even when circumstances change.

Justin:

Yeah, and the difficult part is figuring out where grace ends and Codependence starts. So you know

Mark:

Or interdependence even.

Justin:

Yeah, but you get you get where I’m going with that in the sense that Um, let’s say that person has surgery and whatever and there’s needs to be grace there to say they can’t, you know, deliver in the ways that kind of are our uh relational contract was kind of sorted out. Like you do your things, I do my things and we contribute and we bring to the table the the this kind of equal um provision in different ways and now you can’t because of surgery. Well What can be difficult is reversion, right? So in that situation, maybe you had worked to establish some boundaries about who provides and how and all that kind of stuff and it was hard won and you got to a place of a pattern that was healthy for your family and then this surgery happened and and some reversion occurs and both side it can happen in both sides where the you know, as the person who went through surgery and maybe I revert back to You know, watch it more TV like I used to. But you know, I have an excuse to because what else am I gonna do? I can’t walk very good or whatever it is. You know. And the other side could revert to that resentment of like I can’t stand when he sits around and you know and he’s not being productive. Here I am cleaning the house or whatever. And so there can be some reversion that happens there. And In this circumstantial thing, it’s so important to have grace and to have understanding on both parts to say, hey, this looks like a previous pattern. And it isn’t necessarily.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Number one. And number two, there can be real reversion of like, okay, my leg’s better But I’m back into my pattern of watching too much TV and not helping out around the house or whatever whatever that boundary breaking is Um, which gets to number one, boundaries are hard to set. Number two, they’re hard to keep. So once once you establish a boundary, um, it can reset the relationship on a new norm. And that’s that’s amazing. That’s that’s that’s great. That’s growth. Yeah, that’s growth. Exactly. Yeah. Um the problem is like you said, circumstantial things can cause a reversion. And therefore the boundaries may need to be redrawn or re-reminded or you know, re reset.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that can be harder than the initial setting.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Because now you had the resentment built up of like I thought we got here. I thought we established this in in in like or even gaslighting of like I’m you know, my leg’s injured and it’s not my fault I can’t whatever and it’s like well Is it still hurting or could you help around the house? You know, that kind of thing. Like there can be all kinds of relationship relational dynamics that can cause that reversion. Uh and now those boundaries really truly need to be set again or reset or redefined or modified or whatever it is. Or, you know, you sense you’re going that direction because of this circumstantial thing to be able to say, pause. You know, like like a referee, you know, pull up the T. Timeout. Exactly. Saying, hey, just so you know, I’m noticing this thing in me. I’m noticing some reversion things where I’m getting a little resentful. And I just want you to know, I know you I don’t expect you to help out, but I feel like I’m expecting that and I don’t want that. So let’s just have a conversation about, hey Once you’re able to be healthy, let’s figure out how we can get back to our normal situation. But for right now, I wanna make sure you know that I’m I want you to be healthy. I want you to, you know, your leg to heal, whatever that situation is, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Be able to have a conversation kind of pre-blow up is ideal. Um, but what are your thoughts on kind of well I know we’re getting real close to time.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And um, yeah. Feel free to share your thoughts or if you’d like to pause and we can continue this. Again,

Mark:

I think you bring up a great point too, you know, and I’ll I’ll kinda not that I’m closing with this thought, but just to be able to say um the systems that we operate in f resist change.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

It’s called homeostasis. It’s basically like milk. Think about milk, you know. Milk desires to f have the cream float to the top and the milk and homogeneous milk. Keeps it all together. In other words, there’s no separation. And reality is that our systems desire to operate in that same likeness, the way they’ve always done. So change, the system itself will resist healthy change. It’s the point, if I want to do something more beneficial, you know, more healthy my my the people within my system will actually even fight that healthy change just because it’s different.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s important when we’re talking about, you know, addiction and other things like that to be able to recognize other people may undermine my desire for growth. But it doesn’t mean just because it’s more comfortable doesn’t mean it’s healthy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s that’s where conversations come into play because so often I think it comes down to this is gonna be a difficult conversation. So let’s just not talk about it.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And you know, that’s where that’s where the air and you know

Justin:

So to your comment about homeostasis where we kinda want to separate out the cream to the top and milk at the bottom or what that whatever. In our relationship re going back to what we used to do or whatever. Um I think that that’s even Not taking into account the law of entropy. So entropy is everything moves from orderly to to disorderly, from not chaos to chaos. That’s a universal law of the of the universe, right?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And so Even in that situation where we go back to our norm, w that’s also gonna become more chaotic because now there’s those expectations. So it’s not just you go back to way it was and it’s like, all right, fine. It’s like, no, it gets worse I hear it. You know, the entropy kicks in and it becomes more chaotic because now not only are we reverting to the way it used to be, but w there’s also the resentment that’s building up and those kinds of things. So it’s not I guess what I’m saying is it’s not just like kind of going back to a neutral place and it’s like, well, we could be growing, but now we’re just kind of statically it likely will continue to

Mark:

in a less healthy direction. Yes. Yeah. No, I agree with you. So yeah. Any other thoughts you’d like to share?

Justin:

Um there’s one thing I that I think I don’t know if there’s time for. Um, but m in the con in the in the context of codependency and specifically in recovery from codependency. Okay. Because I know a lot of friends who have worked through that. Even my own uh wife would would you know share about her journey in that. um how the initial learning of boundaries tends to be very prickly.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Right. And so uh I think that’s one thing um that’s probably worth exploring is like how to have graze for that but also how how to grow into boundaries and not be prickly and if that if that’s even an option.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But usually what we find is that they overshoot, right? So it’s like I don’t have boundaries and now I’m gonna have Boundaries is slam them down on your your hands.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

This is and every time you cross over, it’s like whack. And it’s like, ha, you see that? That’s a boundary.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Eat it.

Mark:

Understood.

Justin:

And

Mark:

I think you it brings up that uh I think it is it’s you know Billy Graham basically referring to our relationship with Jesus. to the point of he loves us just the way we are, but he loves us too much to leave us there. And I think that prickliness Is that love that says, I love you, but I love you too much to see this pattern and cycle continue. So therefore, it may feel a little prickly , but ultimately I I desire us, I desire our growth, you get to be able to, and I and I think so often, even like in in sessions, I’ll say, hey, you know what? This is this is the deal. When you guys come to me as a couple, I see the relationship as my client. So if that means I have to step on your toes, I’m gonna step on your toes for the sake of the, you know, ecause uh anything that I hear or see, I’m gonna view that through the health of the relationship. So yes, there’s gonna be things that you do that are counter to a relationship. There’s gonna be things that I do that are counter to relationship. And we need to be able to challenge those. And it’s gonna feel prickly at times. Yeah. But I’m letting you know ahead of time that when that prick comes, it’s just to be able to recognize, okay. I see how that’s not healthy where our relationship is concerned.

Justin:

And it’s with the intention of move me to a healthier place. I think too, like, back to what I was saying about there’s two goals to learning boundaries. One is health my health.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then secondarily is your health. And I think especially in recovery, we talk about y you know, you can’t have a healthy relationship till you learn health in your your personal health. And so I would almost counter what you’re saying to where it’s not very often that they’re saying this is for the benefit of the relationship. It’s very often in that first step learning of like, oh yeah, I can’t have a healthy any healthy relationship till I start learning how to have boundaries and

Mark:

sure so it healthy me, healthy us.

Justin:

Yeah, it often comes from a I think that is the long term goal and that is it. But it’s it doesn’t come across that way often. It’s kind of like, you know, building a wall around me that says, look, I got boundaries and you’re gonna deal with them whether you like it or not, because I’m learning how to be healthy for myself. And again For me, I understand that as a very important prog progression for someone who’s working through learning codependence. I think there’s like I said, there’s just two sides of that that I would want to encourage someone learning that like to remember People can be hurt by those boundary slamming.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that hurt isn’t always bad.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

But also just a recognition of it is is important. But I I I guess what I have learned is like I think that’s a necessary process.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I feel like it’s it’s true whenever I see a healthy growth in someone working through codependence. is that they often go through this prickly stage and if I have access to the people around them and often like again in an attic I have access to the attic. Because they’re the you know often it’s a guy and we’ll have these conversations. I’ll say let him go through this. It sucks. It’s hard. I went through it too. Like I in other relationships, like this is this is not fun And this can’t be the new norm. Like the I I don’t expect you to live with this the rest of your life, but you certainly should right now. Let them learn this. You know they need to learn this. Sure. You know And uh anyway.

Mark:

Well I think what you’re describing is a healthy consequence to avoidance. Cause so often we may want to avoid circumstances or not recognize certain things have happened. Or have been ongoing. And when we ignore those over time, you know, there’s gonna be greater consequences. And I think, you know, feeling we I I don’t know, it’s it’s like I think, you know, la our lives have pain one way or the other.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If we if we stay in a relationship, it’s gonna have pain. If we leave a relationship, it’s gonna have pain.

Justin:

Yeah. If you work out, you’re gonna have pain. Yeah. If you don’t work out, you’re gonna have the pain of the big thing. Exactly.

Mark:

So and I think so often our desire is to avoid pain. And it’s healthy to be able to recognize I’m not gonna avoid pain.

Justin:

You’re just deferring immersion.

Mark:

Yes. And so I think so often in that dynamic when I feel that prickliness. I’ll allowing it like you’re saying is a healthy thing because that’s really just a consequence that now I’m being allowed to feel and it says Huh, maybe maybe the way that I was doing it isn’t as beneficial as I once thought it was.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s good. So

Mark:

as far as I’m concerned, that’s how I see it.

Justin:

Thank you, Mark.

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