Mark:

So are we making a choice that we have to go with this topic?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Just because it was generated.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Oh wow. What if I know nothing about this topic? Then you’re gonna carry it since it’s your idea.

Justin:

Uh you wanna tell them what we’re gonna do?

Mark:

Sure. So here’s the deal. We have uh uh in this chat ATP world, uh Justin has found a AI opportunity to be able to randomly choose topics. And so he is busy busily quickly away, trying to get it to work. And whatever the topic is, that’s what we’re gonna go with. But uh he he he just he’s just like a gopher. He’s just got his Eyes right there and he is focused.

Justin:

There we go.

Mark:

Okay, now he’s back. So the the the intensity has gone out of his vision.

Justin:

You you didn’t tell him I was I was sitting here programming. Well I didn’t

Mark:

I didn’t know that’s what you that that’s the clicking part. I said you were busily clicking away. So I can’t even see the font on your screen. I’m gonna be honest with you

Justin:

Well we can zoom in here.

Mark:

No, no, it’s all good.

Justin:

Can you read that?

Mark:

Yeah, I can. Yeah, topic.

Justin:

Exclamation point.

Mark:

Exclamation point.

Justin:

All right. So just to clarify His uh APT point. I took all of our episode titles that we’ve done so far.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And I put ’em in chat GPT and I said, Generate more topics for a podcast episode that has episodes titled and then I put a list of all of our titles.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And then it generates

Mark:

Did you put anything in there about polarizing

Justin:

I might have. I can’t remember the exact prompt, but the key part for me was uh I that I gave it all the episode titles we’ve done so far.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um, and so then it you know spit out some topics.

Mark:

I bet Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations. Like it, yeah And there were some repeats so I removed them like ones we’ve already done or or repeats of itself. So I removed.

Mark:

Why would he give us ones that are repeated?

Justin:

I don’t it’s not it’s not

Mark:

that random.

Justin:

It’s not actually intelligence. It’s uh natural language model that creates predicted text based on what you provide. So that’s what people uh that’s a chat GPT it’s not like this sentient being. It’s basically generating text that looks like text that would be a response to what you asked.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh which app a form of intelligence. Yeah, exactly. But like it doesn’t always know that text it generated isn’t correct or didn’t really answer your question. It’s just generating text that feels you know, like which matches Answers. You know what I mean? It’s like it’s

Mark:

Yeah. It’s

Justin:

it’s interesting. It’s not as smart as you’d think, but it’s smarter than it’s very smart.

Mark:

I never thought it was that smart. I’ll be honest with you.

Justin:

Well, how often have you used Chat GPT?

Mark:

I haven’t done often. But I figure if it it’s just all the information that’s out there and it’s just putting it together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In such a way that says, okay, yeah, this connects with what I was given. And it does it real fast. I can respect the speed.

Justin:

Yes. Does it real fast and it can provide here’s the thing. It can provide a wrong answer, but it can also provide a better answer.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? So like

Mark:

a way that we didn’t think about it before.

Justin:

Right. Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Or like a response that’s generated from inputs that are more accurate than like one of the ex example is you could y like people have you done this and kind of shown an example of like asking it counselor type questions, psychiatrist type questions, like what do you do when you you know you want to hurt yourself, for example.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And like the answer it returns is really good and and actually almost has a kindness to it.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

You know, and it’s because, you know, it’s generated from all the answers to that across the internet.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s it’s just kind of interesting. Like I think I think you would find it interesting if you used it.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

So here’s what we’re gonna do.

Mark:

That being said though, I still ha you know I you So what it’s taken from is all across because I know we’ve talked about, you know, technology before and everybody has their silo Yeah, but it it goes outside of my silo for that information in many cases. So that would that would be I could see that being a good thing.

Justin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark:

Because it gets other input other thoughts that I might not necessarily have in my own individual social media silo type thing where I’m only getting certain

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. I could see that being a positive thing.

Justin:

Yep. And um yeah, absolutely. And you know, resources that maybe you’ve never had, right? So it’s like Um, the cool thing there’s uh there’s one called Google Bard, um which is like chat GPT but it’s Googles.

Mark:

Oh

Justin:

No, lawyers.

Mark:

Yeah, the bar exam. Oh bar , no

Justin:

bard as in

Mark:

B-A-R-D.

Justin:

Smart guy, I think, right?

Mark:

Oh Bard. Oh, see.

Justin:

Bard is like uh a wise person.

Mark:

Yep. I give you that.

Justin:

Define Bard. A prof oh a professional poet and singer. Oh yeah, as among the ancient Celts whose occupation was to co dot dot dot

Mark:

Oh. Nice job.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So a bard is a wide person who typically writes or writes music.

Justin:

Artistic person, I guess, more. I thought it was more of a wise, but yeah, I’ve drawn. It’s like a performer type thing.

Mark:

So yes, Google Bard.

Justin:

Google Bard. Um

Mark:

it has nothing to do with law.

Justin:

That’s right. Yeah. Well maybe it does. But uh you know, it will typically spit out Um, some resource links to resources where it generated content from. So that that’s that’s one of the benefits of Google borrowed over something like ch ChatGPT. It’s like chat GPT will give you an answer. You have no idea if it’s right and you don’t know what sources are. where Googlebard will often include some sources that kind of where it referenced it. So you can at least check if it if it’s right based on that source.

Mark:

If it’s applicable.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s kinda cool. Um

Mark:

just like we had a misunderstanding about Bard.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

It depends on your definition.

Justin:

That’s right. It does. Yeah, the definition of something can change everything.

Mark:

The spelling probably makes a diff a big difference there. But either way.

Justin:

Um, so the idea is that we are going to pick a random topic. We don’t know what it is. It’s chat GPT generated So we already we’ve already s read and seen the list.

Mark:

I think

Justin:

Mark forgot that, but uh we have reviewed all of these topics at some at one point. We have? Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Even the one we’re gonna get right now

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Oh, was that what we saw earlier? I thought you were

Justin:

Today no, it was a different day.

Mark:

Oh well then see I’m not responsible for anything that happened today. It’s

Justin:

a different day. So anyway, the point is they’re pre reviewed topics. I don’t know that we were necessarily excited about uh all of them.

Mark:

Do we need a drum roll for this morning?

Justin:

Yeah, do I have a drum? I think I

Mark:

do have a drum roll. But we don’t need one. So are are you

Justin:

going to remember which button it is.

Mark:

It’s all

Justin:

and we know what happens when I push the wrong button.

Mark:

So that being said, do you have a topic ready? At this moment.

Justin:

I have to click get a topic.

Mark:

Oh, so that’s all you have to do.

Justin:

That’s all I have to do.

Mark:

You’re gonna click that.

Justin:

Click the magic button.

Mark:

And so here’s a drum roll. Oh, he had to click twice. Nothing has happened so far. So yes, this is what happens in real-time podcasting. Oh, programming. Sorry.

Justin:

Let’s try this again.

Mark:

Okay. So I need another drum roll. He w Okay. Well, he went back to another page, did another click, and now he’s back at get a topic.

Justin:

All right. Nice.

Mark:

Ooh. And the screen reads

Justin:

Ooh I think you’re gonna like this one more.

Mark:

Well, I’m uh this is better than I thought it would be. Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the national anthem So that’s

Justin:

in

Mark:

when I read that, what word came to your mind? Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the

Justin:

yes or no?

Mark:

No, what came to your mind?

Justin:

Oh, racism.

Mark:

Really?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Because freedom came to my mind.

Justin:

Okay. Ha. So there is your two polarizing concepts, right?

Mark:

Oh, Justin’s already starting to argue. I like it.

Justin:

No, I’m saying I think uh I think that’s what makes it polarizing. Those two words we just managed to magically

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Pull them out of the so polarizing. What do you think?

Mark:

Because we haven’t done we have freedom was one of now that you mention it, freedom was on our list of topics. And so yeah, that

Justin:

‘s so is

Mark:

Racism.

Justin:

You know, kind of like the Which I’m excited about doing that at some point, but um two white dudes, you know. There’s only one race represented here, so

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um but Interestingly enough, yeah, this I’d say this topic ties into both of those things and I would say w is kind of the the polarizing war cry on maybe both sides.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? What do you think?

Mark:

Yeah, I agree with you. So in that in that question Should would you have a yes or no answer?

Justin:

Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the national anthem? I believe they should be allowed.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Yeah. Whether I agree that they should do it, like it’s a good thing or not, or whatever. That’s

Mark:

whether you agree with it or not.

Justin:

Whether I agree with it or not, yes.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because because of freedom.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, and I and I I’m I’m with you there. I’m not I’ve it’s not something that I’m gonna condone or I’m gonna necessarily and

Justin:

Let let’s let’s get real serious with that. Not real serious, uh real practical. If you coached a local team, soccer for instance, I think you just coached John a little bit. Yep. um high school team, whatever. Would you allow that for your athletes?

Mark:

And I th and I think for me, I would have to allow that.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

In that sense, bec and a and and here again

Justin:

Because we can say one thing, but if you put it sorry, if you put it in a real world situation.

Mark:

Yeah, and I and I like the real world situation and I think I think it man, I think a conversation ha has to occur and in that analogy you gave or the my my history, I’m thinking of a of a young teen. You know, and I think there’s an aspect where that young teen still needs to be able to have that right. And, you know, there would definitely be a discussion that went along with it because I think there is the the dynamic of team and and and being a unified

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

and is that something that we understand and it adds to our ability to accept one another and still work together as a team? Or is it something that tends to just create isolation and And granted, not that everybody always has to go along with whatever the team or the coach decides. I’m not going there, but yet I think I think in some cases it has led to divisiveness that isn’t beneficial to the entire team.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m and and here again, that’s just my perspective on it because Yeah. And granted, I’m I’m I’m kind of thinking of that era, you know, where it started and you know the NFL uh did it start? W was it it was Callan Coeppernick, right? Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so like you say, w you know, and uh here again was you know, based on who he was, his, you know, inputs, that kind of thing. It’s just okay. You know. And I I would I would recognize that from a athletics standpoint, you know, other athletes would have more credibility for me personally, you know, than Colin Kaepernick, even though, you know, nothing against his ability or well But yeah, just just just thinking about that as far as I think there’s something to be said for I’m doing this for a reason or I’m doing this to for for publicity. And I think that can play into it, but that’s I’m not trying to detail the the topic either. For you.

Justin:

Well, it’s not derailing the topic that’s very much, you know, very much on topic for the topic that was randomly generated for us.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, I do think that’s interesting with Kaepernick in term ’cause I do think people will I don’t know if this is w necessarily what you’re saying or or I I guess I’m I would have to ask you what your your implications are, but a lot of accusation that it was done for publicity. But if you look at the actual output of it, I would say he’s not playing, he didn’t he didn’t play. Like it was a negative impact to his career pretty significantly. Right. And so You know, and I take a little bit of issue of b when people say, Oh, he only did it for publicity. It could be true. I’m not gonna say the initial effort wasn’t Wasn’t some but I also I I also think we’re we’re humans and we’re multifaceted and I I would imagine that even if that was part of it, part of his motive in the beginning was thinking you know, and I’ll get publicized or whatever, I’ll have I’ll be whatever. That his motives were genuine in the sense of I want to draw attention to these matters of you know, Black Lives Matter, that kind of thing Um and and I bel yeah. So I I think but you know, as far as outcome of that, he did gain publicity,

Mark:

you know. No doubt. No, I hear you there.

Justin:

What do you think?

Mark:

Well, I and I think, you know, influence

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

is is a is a

Justin:

currency.

Mark:

Yeah, is a currency. And you know, and I guess I’m just thinking about it in that context of, you know, people that I, you know Sa I’m not a big fan of Drew Brees oh not Drew Brees. Um who’s who’s the guy that just retired Uh play Yeah. Yeah. Brady.

Justin:

Brady.

Mark:

Tom Brady. But no, that’s that’s I d you know, to where You know, th th that person, you know, Tom Brady has a different level of respect from my perspective to where I and here again, uh now that I’m saying that, I have to look at it, okay, is that is that a black-white thing Because I can’t argue, you know, the fact that, you know, Tom Brady’s a white guy. Do I respect him more? But I think about what I initially came to mind is someone who I respect From a level of athleticism and what he has accomplished and performance. And it’s like, you know, okay, so if, and I would have to admit that if someone like him Okay , were to kneel, you know, I would tend to say, okay, that’s somebody that feels very strongly about what they’re doing, and I can respect that more so. than if it’s somebody that I see, you know, has a is is typically on the edge of that publicity athleticism type dynamic. He um even uh Cam Newton , you know, it seemed almost like you could predict his demise to a certain degree because and granted I’m not saying he didn’t might have might have had some mental health issues going on, but it almost seemed like you could see who he was changing, you know, just on who he was and the stances he took and it’s like it seemed as if his athletic career kind of went downhill from there.

Justin:

Yeah. And the the I guess the question is chicken or egg, right? Like did the athletic career dip because of the focus shift. Or did the focus shift because the athletic career was dipping and it was a way to become relevant?

Mark:

Or what or did my athletic career give me s mo more influence

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

and then that influence tended to create you know shift my views and I might have gone too far down that rabbit trail And go ahead.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, or yeah, any other variations. I mean ’cause I think there’s yeah. I also think w y as I said, humans are m multifaceted. Um but we like our heroes to be s s one facet that we can understand and wrap ourselves around. Or if they’re gonna be multifaceted, at least make sure all the other facets align with the things I care about. You know what I mean? It’s like Yeah, we like superheroes, right? Like Superman, he’s who he is and Flash runs fast and you know, but like y y you we don’t wanna know about their political opinions or whatever. It’s like you know what I’m saying? We l we like to know them for the one thing we know them for. And I think when it bec comes when they’re

Mark:

you don’t want to know their political opinions or you want their political opinions to align with yours?

Justin:

I think either one. Right. I guess that’s kind of my point. It’s like let the main thing be the main thing because that’s what I’m That’s what I care about with you, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I’m not saying this is good, but I just feel like that’s kind of a a a tendency for humanity is like I want my heroes to be simple.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um there the the one thing I know before is that that’s what I’m That’s what they’re about and that’s what I can get behind or not get behind. If you hate Tom Brady or you like him, it’s like, well, he’s someone who wins vr no matter what, right? So that’s his thing. We all know yeah, it’s a either he’s a villain to you or he’s a hero But either way, it’s like that’s the thing. That’s what we get out of Tom. I don’t there’s nothing more.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And and and I feel like we tend to want to do that with all of our heroes and it most of our heroes make it easy because That’s where the money is, right? It’s g is capitalizing on the thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s the moneymaker, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Whatever that thing is. And don’t distract from that, because it will distract from you know, the the the outcome, the income, I should say, the money, right? So I don’t know, I maybe that’s a simp simplistic idea, but I do feel like I do feel like that’s ten seems to be true where we like our heroes to be simple and

Mark:

No, I hear where you’re coming from from that.

Justin:

And so when they shift from that It gets confusing for us.

Mark:

When they become complex.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s like, well, do I want him to be my hero? Yeah.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it’s like Well now I have to villainize him because he has an opinion I don’t like, even though I loved his the thing I loved about him. Now I can’t love that either. You know, and I feel like I’ve se I you know, I’ve seen that through this conversation where it’s like, Well, even that wasn’t that great you know, where it was like He you know, pe people who used to be fans it that you know, they now can villainize him, you know, and it’s like no, he he was good at some things and You know, as far as sports go, obviously he had some strengths and some weaknesses. He wasn’t the best athlete in the world, and I think that’s what we’re kind of talking about. So it kind of makes it harder to respect him sadly because that’s not all he is is his ability to be an athlete and his uh performance. Kinda to your point, like your tendency would be to respect a Tom Brady level of effort. if for them to switch into this political stance you’d you’d hear it a little bit better. Um and it makes perfect sense why that’s true. You’re basically capitalizing on the social capital you’ve built up, right? Like you’re you’re cashing in on that and were saying you’re borrowing too much, you know, for for this for a lot of people for Colin Kaepernick ‘s like you’re borrowing against you know, credit you don’t have.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What should it do? That’s a lot of stuff.

Mark:

But I and I and I still want to come back to when I think about it in that context of kneeling for the national anthem Okay. Our our tendency, or you know, the the team dynamic if you would would be to tend to, you know, stand for the national anthem. When you think about standing kneeling, but when you think about the national anthem, what is what is that what is that to you?

Justin:

Well that’s uh that’s a good question. And it really comes to the heart of the matter, but um yeah, for me it’s uh very patriotic and appreciative vibe for me and um kind of pride, you know, go back to our conversation about pride, national pride and um and Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I would even say to the to a certain degree an indoctrinated uh affection and respect.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah. I was thinking I was yeah, I was processing indoctrinated. Yeah.

Justin:

Like from the time you were young.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

This is what you do. Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you’re not saying indoctrination’s necessarily a bad thing at that point because you’re taught a level of patriotism, if you would.

Justin:

Correct.

Mark:

And that doesn’t have to be that’s not necessarily a bad thing, even though in our culture at times that aspect or, you know, patriotism may not necessarily be valued. Because it has a a tendency to yeah, take indoctrination from a a negative standpoint.

Justin:

The level of patriotism can be problematic. Like, it the d degree to which you are patriotic can become prob problematic But also one would argue that this is based on the word patriot, which is based on the idea of the original patriots who went to the nth degree to make this country happen, right? So it’s like the level of their patriotism was death, right? Like we’ll do, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s like It’s a hard it can be a hard thing to kind of wrestle with in my brain of like how much patriotism is too much in the sense of sure, you know, alienating others or um, you know, us versus them kind of idea. uh or the ability to fight for an idea that matters to the degree that I’d be willing to die. You know, and it’s like I respect the fact that our forefathers, the original patriots, did that

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I wouldn’t take that away from them. Um but at the same time, if someone was that extreme today, would I appreciate that? I don’t know. I don’t

Mark:

exactly

Justin:

I feel Like that would be very uncomfortable.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

For me. Although if we are being oppressed, I think that’s that’s part of it, right? Like the the environment that we were they were in was like very clear oppression in um to a degree, right? And

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Kind of a there was a very clear evil that to point to to say we have to fight that evil. And I think I think if that’s the case today still it it would be much easier. I don’t know, Mark. I don’t know. That’s I feel like it’s complicated.

Mark:

Yeah, it is. It is complicated. And I I give that, you know, and yeah, I mean, yeah. ‘Cause we can have all of our conspiracy theory type ends out there that, you know, rail against, you know, Big Brother and other things like that. And yet there is a part of me that would say Would we I mean, I think about it even at times, granted, we’re paying our own government taxes, but you know, we I routinely hear, you know The Patriots, you know, or the our forefathers would be rolling over their in our graves based on the amount of tax that we pay You know. And granted, we’re not paying it to a foreign dictator, you know, so that becomes a difference. Yeah, they’re rallying

Justin:

cryo as taxation without representation.

Mark:

Exactly. So that’s what ‘s

Justin:

one could certainly argue that that’s similar to what we’re are we represented? I don’t know. Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I’m still I I appreciate that insight or that perspective. And I’m still bringing it back to that. I because I think it is for me what those two the the athlete part matters very little to me in this part because of that, you know, yes, uh athletes athletes may, you know, have a unnecessary amount of publicity or you know, not unnecessary, but you understand where I’m coming from. And I think, you know, uh I I would dare say, you know, athletes Actors, you know, they’re kind of both in that. What did I see? It was the other day I was uh I was I was watching something or seeing something. Oh, I was went to the movies, that’s what it was. And, you know, there’s a a person that’s uh, you know, I l I like how we’ve adopted this influencer title for somebody’s job name. You know, it’s like actor slash influencer. It’s like, huh.

Justin:

That’s my job.

Mark:

That’s my job. You know, that’s what I do. It’s like, well, isn’t everybody an influencer to a certain degree?

Justin:

Can I can I explain the concept of an influencer?

Mark:

Of course.

Justin:

All right, quick aside. So an influencer is usually comes from the social media side and the whole point is um people will pay me to communicate their message because I can influence.

Mark:

Sure. So basically if you have a YouTube

Justin:

Right. Or if you’re on YouTube. Yeah. It’s like if I show your product and r you know, promote it I am an influencer and therefore you should pay me lots of money. So that there literally is like they’ve turned it into a career. My number of Instagram followers makes me an influencer would which means you should pay me to show your product. You know what I mean? So that’s kind of the genesis.

Mark:

It’s a combination of a marketing

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Type perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

But it is it is very funny and I agree with that. No, I think

Mark:

that’s it’s like, huh. Huh.

Justin:

I’m an actor slash influence. I’m a podcaster slash influencer.

Mark:

I like it. I like it. Put that after your uh your names. You’re just gonna have to print business cards.

Justin:

influence.

Mark:

Yes. I like it a lot.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. But I’m coming back to that.

Justin:

We have to start calling ourselves that so that we’ll start getting paid to Do this thing.

Mark:

Yeah. But so we could put should influencers, should actors, you know, be allowed. to kneel, you know, and for me that does come back to freedom. And I’ll uh you know, it’s I’ll be honest, it’s been um made I think it’s been m mm become more relevant. Um, I think for me, you know Since John has gone in the military. And this is a conversation in some ways that we’ve had, you know because, you know, we’ve you know, he’s basically said to me, you know, no, I don’t necessarily agree with it, but you know, I believe that everybody should have the freedom to be able to do so.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then it’s like at that point it didn’t matter so much what my personal perspectives were.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I mean, granted, but at that point, it’s like, yeah, it is about the freedom to be able to choose. And I think It is about the ability to, as you kind of alluded to, cash my influence in in such a way that says, okay, are you going to join me in this? And I ‘m gonna in allow you’re gonna allow yourself to be influenced by me to see that there a problem exists based on how I see it, how that you know, that individual, whether it’s an athlete, And I think, you know, part of where you were coming from and and uh prior to that is I think individuals can be so out of touch that at the same time they don’t have the credibility that they we think when we think of that terminology influencer, you and I almost tend to laugh just a little bit. Granted. It’s a title, it’s a real thing, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that oh, I’m gonna go do exactly what that person is telling me to do because of their influence in my life.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s where this kneeling for the national anthem comes into play. It’s like, okay, it’s gonna it’s gonna bring some attention. I won’t use the word publicity, but it’s gonna bring some attention. And is it going to create what I desire to create or is it not? And I think individuals, you know, need to have that freedom to be able to kneel because I think it is a it is a an opportunity, kind of like the the uh a press, you know, we need to be able to say that this person is doing that. And not fear that there will be some rebuttal, some retaliation against us just because we’re bringing this to the light.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s what’s at the basis of this question.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

From that fundamental right to be able to have the freedom to do something different than what I have been. respectfully indoctrinated into from a a patriotic standpoint.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And Like it or not, like Kaepernick or not, believe he deserved you know he had the social capital or not. It started an intense national conversation that’s lasted till the I mean today where ChatGPT is giving it as a topic, right? Like I I would argue that he probably did what he has set out to do.

Mark:

Hm

Justin:

in a sense. Although, you know, I have spoken to him and I can’t remember even hearing him talk about it. So I can’t say that, but I guess I that’s just an assumption I’m making that it created the conversation that he was trying to create.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

you know, again, we’re we’re multifaceted, so I sure I’m sure to some degree he wants the credit for that conversation, but I also think to some degree he probably is happy that it’s gone on past him Does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

If it if it’s tr if he was doing it for the reasons that he was saying he was doing it, then I think he would be happy to say It uh it started with me, but it didn’t end with me, and it’s it went grew past me, and that’s great. ‘Cause that was not the purpose, was it, for it to be about me.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah. You have his his contact. I figure you’re you’re the influencer in the room. So

Justin:

I got his Instagram. I ‘m sure I could look up his Instagram profile and slide him a DM.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s how you got uh Doomer.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s right. Elias Noomer. Um but yeah, I think

Mark:

It was dumber though.

Justin:

Dumber, yeah. It was dumber.

Mark:

But you won’t be.

Justin:

I was like, that’s a sound right, but Yeah, anyway. Um

Mark:

I just remember that’s how we were saying it at first because we didn’t want to ending it.

Justin:

Yeah, he’s like, nope, it’s definitely dumber.

Mark:

It’s just the way it is. Just like it sounds. Yep.

Justin:

Um yeah, I definitely think they should be allowed. I mean I think I th I th back to the rubber hits meets the road question about if it was my team.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think there are some days in this conversation where I would have been like, if you’re on my team, you’ll stand. You know, because that’s that’s the respect you have for me as your coach who says this.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

The respect you should have for a general I you know um Uh reverence. Reverence, I guess, would be the right thing. And then there are other days where I would have done the opposite. Like if you believe this is right, I’m gonna I’m gonna respect that with you. Um as long as you’re doing I you know, and I would encourage them, I want you to be doing it for the right reasons.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

I want you to think about this. I also want you to recognize that there are consequences to this. Maybe maybe today, maybe not. You know, but maybe eventually you’re trying to get a job and they see a picture of you kneeling in high school and they think, I don’t want this kind of kid in my you know I mean so yeah I think it would be important for them to understand there are consequences and if that’s if you’re willing to do it for those with those things in mind, then I can respect that and I can under you know and I I don’t agree. I don’t think I wouldn’t do that, but I you know what I mean? Yeah So there are days where I would have probably fell on both sides of that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And I’m a middle aged white dude, so of course that would probably shift depending on my growing up circumstance and m the color of my skin and all those things.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and I I’ve read you know, it’s it was a national conversation for a while, so I r I read a lot about it on both sides and R that I think that’s really where my my mind was changed, right, to the degree where I could I could say, I understand it a lot better and I don’t hate it anymore. Where originally it was just a appalling.

Mark:

You know what I mean?

Justin:

Because of the the the the lack of reverence. And when I started to understand some of the f facets of it, I g I gained a respect for it.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s interesting you’re you’re thinking about uh the uh the uh the movie Miracle.

Justin:

Kurt Russell.

Mark:

Kurt Russell, yep. Coach. That that famous line he says, you know, where they’re uh going back and forth. The uh, you know the name on the front of your jerseys a whole lot more important than the name on the back. You know? And I was thinking about that. I think there is because I was thinking from what you were saying, you know, I think there is something to be said, and I think the military is another good example of that. You know, y we don’t always get the choice when we put a uniform on

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. And I think there there there can be something to be said for, you know, that even the ability to follow when I disagree. Because because I am wearing a uniform and granted a jersey from my perspective is a is a part of that use. So I would say A coach has that ability to be able to say like you were asking me and yet, you know, from my from my seat you know, that person has that freedom, but I’m also thinking about it in that context of, you know, sometimes when you put a a uniform, when you put a jersey on, you have to set your your fundamental rights aside to be able to choose something differently because I’m gonna recognize that I may not have the full picture And you know, hopefully from you know military standpoint, those above me do, and they’re making choices based on the best interest. of our country, that kind of thing. So that was you you kind of brought that up to where, yeah, that is something to be said. For the sake of a team and unity and

Justin:

see.

Mark:

But go ahead.

Justin:

Ex Excellent point, and I agree with that. And I think I think that needs to be a the forefront of your decision making is do you understand that you are re representative of this uniform?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And all the the things that that implies. And i are you still willing to do this? Does that make sense? And because I think that’s part of the conversation is to say It’s worth it. Right? I think that is part of the conversation of why why why it was done is it’s worth it for the benefits that they were trying to achieve, each each individual, right? And y they probably all have similar or maybe different reasons, but is it worth that to gain that? Um and I think I think that’s where the discussion lies is like just because they have the that’s it’s so hard. Just because they have the uniform doesn’t mean they shouldn’t protest.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And yet that’s kinda what I was saying about if if it was my team, I want ’em to understand the value of that uniform. Yeah. and how what this unity can do for that uniform you know, what that uniform represents. I don’t know, it’s like it’s it’s such a hard thing for me ’cause it again I I’ve just moved from the polarized ends of it, you know, to where it’s just like Ah it’s a tough one for me.

Mark:

So I’m gonna bring this back to you personally, of course. Would when you’re at that point of almost saying, I’m not sure whether my team is that is that more about the the fact of you being the coach of that team and it seems as if your authority is being called into question as the ability to lead that team in a unified manner?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

That’s a yeah, that would be a big part of it for sure.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I would I wouldn’t be able to remove that. from my decision. Like, I would want to. I would want to say that that doesn’t but I uh to be on I’m sure that would be a factor in deciding. And uh if I if I allowed them to, it would be to fight it would be fighting that concept because

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

you know the approval thing I want everyone to think I’m a good coach who has it under control.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I think But I would also go, you know, some people are gonna approve of me more because I allowed this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, but I th I think that would definitely be part of it is like Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s it it is it is interesting when we think about it from a person personal or personality standpoint.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, what d what does it mean to be a team?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, I d mm I I don’t necessarily see myself as a good team person. And I’m not saying I’m anti-teaming. I I enjoy, you know, I enjoy when we play Frisbee. I enjoy being part of a team. But yet at the same time I’d be the first to it. Well well, yeah. There’s there’s times when I’m just I’ll I’ll break away because I may not necessarily, you know, be feeling unified in that And it’s like, I’m still gonna do my own thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I think, you know, that’s a I think that plays into this question. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And you know Every person has a different value on the concept of team. Your your value of is less may maybe a little bit less than other teammates, right? Based on what you’re saying, like maybe maybe your respect for the concept of team is like, yeah, it matters, but it definitely matters. Right.

Mark:

It definitely matters, but

Justin:

On a continuum, it’s like maybe you don’t care about the concept as much as some other team members who think you should only care about the team. You know, that right ’cause that’s that’s certainly been part of this conversation too. It’s only about the team and you’re you’re letting your team down.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

you just let the whole team down.

Justin:

That’s right, that’s right. And you know, for some of them they’d say If that’s what it takes to get this conversation going, it that’s it’s totally worth it. But for the people who team is of a higher importance it’s not worth it, right? So I think that yeah, people are multifacet faceted, you know, and we’re in the case of the thing. I appreciate your bring

Mark:

I appreciate your bringing that into it because I think that is a part of what made this such a polarizing topic so early on. And it’s and it is interesting to, you know, when we unpack it and it’s different components, you know, of that one sentence. You know, it does it does make a a difference. And I th I think about it even, you know, when you think about national anthem You know, our country song, if you will, our country rally and cry. You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s a that is a

Justin:

Yeah. And one thing I found out through this conversation is that one of the verses we don’t sing is very racist. It has a co a co a part of it that talks about slaves, I think, or something.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

And so it’s like, oh, ooh. That’s kind of gross. The constitution was it that had the three-fifths? Like a slave was a three-fifths of a person or something? Do you

Mark:

remember that?

Justin:

It’s like some of those things we hold dear, you know, they were created with the slavery as just part of reality.

Mark:

Sure. Again, it wasn’t context.

Justin:

In a context of that’s just our reality. It wasn’t uh premeditated like we want this embedded for the rest of time. It’s like, no, this is this is our reality. A slave is a three-fifths of a person. They’re almost a person, but not quite. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like how we thought of them, which is Ugh, gross, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then again the national anthem having, you know, verbiage in it that is that disrespectful of a whole section of human race. Is that that makes the whole thing very fuzzy for me and like, oh gross. Because I love the I mean we that was your first question is what is the National Anthem making Yeah, it has these beautiful connotations for me, but then when I find out there’s this hidden third verse, it’s kinda like Uh, not unlike a lot of organizations where it’s like there’s so much good, but then there’s that that closet with the skeletons in it, you know, that whether it’s our family or even my own, you know, self, like hide there’s certain parts of us we hide, you know, or or don’t want people to know about.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, and I think, man, that’s true of our country too. You know, it’s like it’s so great, but there’s no skeletons and things we don’t want people to know about. And yet I think just like in my personal life, being able to admit that and bring it out of the closet and work through it and address it, you know, is like I think part of having a healthy organization or personhood, you know, and I think that’s what this national conversation kind of did is dragged that clot that those skeletons out of the closet. And some people are like, How dare you show the world our skeletons? You know, and I think the same thing in a lot of people or families where it’s like How dare you talk about the fact that our family has alcoholics in it? Like, you have no right to, you know, it’s like, but for me, you know, but uh but for me personally like or that person personally it was very important for them to have a healthy, honest dialogue about that in their recovery. Does that make sense where but there’s always gonna be some people who are offended by those skeletons being shown?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And I understand that too. And yet is it I would like to think that healthiness is on the other side of bringing those skeletons out and clearing them out, really. And admitting like, yeah, there’s a third verse we should throw out of that thing and make it officially not a thing or whatever. Or you know, uh official. Yeah.

Mark:

And and I think and I hear your point, and it’s interesting I that’s this could be a topic for another time. You know, even even when I hear, you know, that part, we there’s a third verse that we should throw out of that thing. I’m I’m willing to recognize, you know, yeah, there’s a third verse that doesn’t you know, I may not necessarily align with, but and I think this is where it comes into the m from my perspective might become more of the woke dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is you know, it’s like we want to change things just because and granted, I’m not saying it’s agreement, but I’m saying we want to change things And just ignore that part of history.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But I think there is something to be said for understanding that that makes sense based on that context. And I don’t necessarily have to agree with it today. But I don’t have to rewrite that song or rewrite history based on the fact that that time existed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think there is a a value in that ability to say, uh-huh, I didn’t know that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I don’t necessarily agree with that.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And yet were uh you know and I I go ahead.

Justin:

Or you we’re just again, such a polarizing Cr you know, humanity is just we desire those polar opposites. So we want to say, well, if you sing the national anthem, you do agree with that third verse.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

You can’t help but Condone it if you sing it. It’s like, well, that’s not true at all because

Mark:

Exactly

Justin:

those first two verses m I really agree with and it means

Mark:

the first twenty years of your life you had no idea they even existed.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s uh

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But we you know know th there’s that tendency too to kind of make that a polarizing thing. Um yeah and I I like what you’re saying about the woke thing and kind of revising history or you know, erasing you know, bad parts of history. I I I think that’s unwise. I definitely don’t think we ‘re going to be able to do that. Yeah. And I think uh

Mark:

not in a rationalizing, justifying standpoint, but in a in the advantage of the

Justin:

mission, yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

If you erase it from history, you don’t get to learn from it. And I think if anything we should bring it to the surface in a way to learn from it. You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do.

Justin:

So, um

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And and I think Uh let’s just, you know, using this example I I can’t remember actually ever hearing that that should be removed from the song. I’m just I made that

Mark:

understand that.

Justin:

I could see value in that saying as a country we decided that this song

Mark:

is

Justin:

we’re gonna remove that from the official version that we call our national anthem. And here’s the reasons why.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

We don’t believe in three fifths of a person anymore. That’s

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Bunk. Like we remove that, so we sh we’re also removing this concept. And that song still exists in its previous form. And that’s that’s an understanding of like that’s the history we come from, and we’re working to move away from that. Um it also you know this kinda ties into the statues being knocked down of Confederate soldiers and stuff.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and um Yeah, that’s uh we we probably that’s probably a side different conversation.

Mark:

But

Justin:

it’s very interesting.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt. Well, Justin, I appreciate the topic this morning.

Justin:

That was a good one. Good job, Chat GPT.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Good job, Justin.

Justin:

We might have to start a series called the Chat GPT series.

Mark:

That’d be a a separate

Justin:

I kinda like the the random because we did we’ve done that before where we brought a r uh

Mark:

Yeah, the surprise. I like the surprise aspect.

Justin:

And this

Mark:

I then this has some surprise to it. Yeah. And I appreciate the uh I uh and here again, I’m I’m working on my levity. I’m working on just, you know, having to be a the ability to uh

Justin:

have some fun.

Mark:

Yeah, pull it out there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Thank you, Justin. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us@howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.