Justin:

How are you, Mr. Mark?

Mark:

I am well. Yes indeed.

Justin:

Good.

Mark:

Feeling uh a little bit busy. But like you say, it is it is well. Mm-hmm. I am good.

Justin:

Yeah, we uh go ahead.

Mark:

Oh You’re sad.

Justin:

We were discussing kombucha this morning.

Mark:

Yes indeed.

Justin:

Because Mr. Mark got me

Mark:

congratulations.

Justin:

Yes, thank you.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

He got me started brewing my own quiet time kombucha.

Mark:

And I and as a as a sample, yes, it’s nice job. Very good. Thank you. Yeah.

Justin:

Thank you. Thank you.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s really uh I would say Cathartic.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That may be overstated, but

Mark:

it’s okay.

Justin:

Slightly enjoyable, I guess.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Where cathartic feels more therapeutic, maybe.

Mark:

Yeah, but if there’s a point where it offers you a sense of relaxation or just kind of the a mindfulness to be able to kind of Do a thing that is different and yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversation.

Justin:

And I’ve started so this is my second week of bottling, so you know it’s

Mark:

Oh cool.

Justin:

Um yeah. So I’ve been doing the flavors Mark suggested. Raspberry ginger.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

But I also did a few raspberry lemon. Almost you know, very lemonady for the amount of lemon I put in. It was surprising.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Um and then I start Googling like all these other flavors and I got a bunch of fun ideas. Yeah, oh yeah, I’m sure yeah

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So thank you, Mark. Thanks for turning me on to that. It is a weird hobby.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

The SCOBY thing, man. If you don’t if you don’t know, look it up. Or

Mark:

if you need one, let us know. I was gonna say Yeah, if you need one, you want to start your own kombucha, let us know. We can hook you up with a scoby and a syrup to start it all.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Absolutely. It’s really crazy and cool that that’s a thing.

Mark:

And and the neat part of it is it’s like you can make a bunch for very little expense in comparison. If you’re really a kombucha consumer.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. You can you can you can make six bottles for what one would cost.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if you’re basically buying it retail, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah. Or maybe more. Well, I guess

Mark:

I mean it would depend on the flavorings you use and if you count, you know, the cost of each tea bag and that kind of thing. But yeah.

Justin:

Well you buy those tea bags in bulk and they get real cheap. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, no, there’s no doubt there. But like you say, I mean, you know, and and granted, even the flavorings that you think of, you know, you could probably get two batches out of Those, you know, even raspberries, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s not like they don’t cost you anything, but yeah, it’s not.

Justin:

And I also in my r learnings you know you can use frozen fruits so then it’s gonna last and you know it’s cheaper too. Um the key they said is just make sure it’s thawed before you put it in. But

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

But that that yeah so then your expense goes down even more I think It’s very it’s very it’s very cool.

Mark:

Yeah. Well congratulations on your first your first batch. It’s gotta be kind of a rewarding experience. I think in some ways as a culture we don’t wait for much anyway.

Justin:

I know. Like I had to wait a w a week, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well, two.

Mark:

Well two fold totally. You wouldn’t have to wait two weeks, but yeah for the for the uh carbonation to go.

Justin:

Three days ish or whatever. Exactly.

Mark:

You’re at least ten days give or take. Yeah.

Justin:

So that was uh that was tough, yeah. Yeah because I was like I wanna I really wanna try it. But I also did it because it looked weird and gross. I’m like, I’m just gonna I’m not too excited about it, but I also was Uh yeah. Anyway, uh good times. And then oh I used uh home my homegrown ginger because we I have some ginger plant out there and Um so that’s also fun, just kinda using your own. So that that also saves on the the cost, right? Sure. You’re using your own stuff.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, I got some lemons about to be ripe, so I’ll be using those. Kombucha.

Mark:

We’ve done some muscodine as well with just the grapes and that’s uh yeah, it’s a very sweet. Yeah, and I put some ginger in with that to add a little tartness. But yeah, just just the muscodines themselves made it very sweet.

Justin:

I bet. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, I’m not uh A sweet sweep person. You don’t like the soup. Yeah. If it tastes like Kool-Aid, I’m not a big fan. You know, don’t drink the Kool-Aid.

Justin:

See, I feel like mine kinda tastes like Kool-Aid and I enjoy it.

Mark:

But it’s a good Kool-Aid.

Justin:

It is a good Kool Aid.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Ginger does kinda help moderate the

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So when you think of other things that take a process of time

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

That’s very well, you know, things that are very difficult to do instantly. What comes to mind?

Justin:

Uh It’s funny ’cause Mark will ask these really wonderful Segway leading questions. I know what the topic is And uh so I know that’s the answer.

Mark:

Yeah, no, no, I’m not I’m not asking for that answer. I’m uh I’m honestly asking.

Justin:

This happens very r right fairly regularly. I’m like, I gotta think of an answer that I would try and think of Anyway.

Mark:

Can you think of anything

Justin:

asked the question? When you think of things that take time and you can’t get right over. Or help

Mark:

you know that it’s something that’s a process of time. It takes a process of time. You know, what comes to mind?

Justin:

Well, you know, it goes it reminds me of our planting things episode where we talked a lot about growing things. Right.

Mark:

Growth takes time, seeds.

Justin:

Growth generally, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s a that’s a good example. I also think um prayer. Answers to prayer.

Mark:

Okay

Justin:

Often, you know.

Mark:

Sure, we have to wait at times to see the fruition either of of prayer or answers to prayer or you know

Justin:

or so you know, clarity and direction.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Megan jokes a lot of times that um she’ll pray about something and then say, All right, now what do you want me to do? And then she you know, she’ll kinda uh try and take on the job of of doing the work of doing yeah versus being rather than waiting, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um So yeah, and I I relate to that very much too. It

Mark:

sure

Justin:

the best prayer is the ones where you you ask for, you know, help and you ask for direction or whatever and then you just wait. That I I find in my life those are the best. But they’re also much harder.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

All right, I think I have the game plan. God thanks.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah. I think parenting is a matter of time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. It’s like yeah, you

Justin:

Yeah it’s kinda like an investment, right?

Mark:

Yeah, in some ways, I mean, of course you can become a parent, not that you become a parent Well, you can become a you become a parent instantly, you know, in some ways, but yeah, you still have to wait nine months to for the, you know

Justin:

That’s a good thing.

Mark:

She sure is. That process takes a lot longer.

Justin:

All right. Speaking of a parent.

Mark:

A parent? Is this obvious to see? Is that what you mean by a parent?

Justin:

Dad joke for me.

Mark:

Okay, go for it.

Justin:

When does a joke become a dad joke?

Mark:

When a dad tells it.

Justin:

No.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

When the joke becomes apparent.

Mark:

Ah, I hear you. Yes. Yes. I have the w the when you said the word apparent, I should have I should’ve I should have Yes.

Justin:

Uh but that’s a good dad joke. Yes. I think Morgan in her small group shared that with me, so I’m very very thankful for her.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Shout out to Morgan.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Anyway, other things.

Mark:

They take a process of time. Yeah. So

Justin:

do you want to say the thing that

Mark:

Oh, it’s completely up to you. I have no issues.

Justin:

I want go ahead.

Mark:

Okay. And I and I think

Justin:

I want to see how you I want to see you connect it.

Mark:

Oh yeah. Well the reality of it is I think forgiveness is also, you know, something that we can offer You know, that’s uh uh you know instantaneous thing, but at times I also think it becomes a process of time to where I think sometimes depending on the level of hurt you know, forgiveness can be, you know, a matter of having to revisit that desire over and over again in such a way that says, yeah, uh I’ve forgiven this person, but at the same time, kind of like that prayer you were talking about, I have to kind of come back to God again on that issue because it’s like And I and I think it’s important in the process of talking about forgiveness to recognize the difference um between forgiving and forgetting.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I think we can tend to get those two confused to the point of, you know, and I think people struggle with, well, have I really forgiven this person? Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, this is this is gonna be a good topic. Um it’s actually a a great like uh bookend to the apology styles, right? Uh

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

We were trying to figure out if we did this topic before. We we uh uh w tend to look through our list before we commit to a topic because at this point eighty some in. It’s like you know We could have uh part two and not know it, right? But um but yeah, we hadn’t done forgiveness. But as you were just talking, I was like, oh right, we talked about apology though, which is not the same. That is the uh that’s again it’s like the book end, right? So this will be I would encourage you to listen to that one ’cause I think this will uh book in that one pretty nicely. But um yeah, I think too forgiveness sometimes can take time on the receiving end, which is kind of goes into the apology love stuff. you know, apologic styles thing where your version of forgiveness um you might expect a type of response Um you know, immediately that you might not get. Um depending on how someone apologies apologies. apologizes or whatever. I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I don’t know.

Mark:

And I and I think, you know, the ability to forgive, you know, isn’t necessarily I think sometimes we can get it confused when uh forgiveness isn’t necessarily reciprocal.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I ask you to forgive me and yet Just because I’m in that space, I’m in that awareness that I need to ask for your forgiveness, that doesn’t mean you’re in the same space of offering that at the moment.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that can be a difficult dynamic.

Justin:

Well, I think forgiveness is something like most things that we talk about, or mean just most things that takes practice to get good at, right? And um If you’re if you tend to resist forgiveness or you know, tend to you know, stick to the kind of the resentment side of things or whatever.

Mark:

Holding a grudge.

Justin:

Right. And you maybe you maybe you’re starting to transition to I wanna be more forgiving or whatever you might have some expectations about what forgiveness looks like.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think what you just described might was probably one where you would s assume, well if I’m gonna stoop this low You know, and I’m gonna forgive, like and I’m yeah, I’m gonna go there.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I better darn receive it back. You know, they forgive me for my stuff.

Mark:

What do you hear there?

Justin:

Pride.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think go ahead.

Justin:

That’s the antithesis, right? Of course.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Forgiveness. I would say

Mark:

No, that’s exactly what because I think, you know, so often that That desire or the willingness, if you will, to humble ourselves to the point of asking for forgiveness is, like you say, the antidote, if you will, to pride. Because it’s like, you know, we can easily say, well, I was justified or we can, you know, we can we can talk about the things that I that you did that that quote unquote made me do that type thing. You know, and I that’s where I was definitely thinking about it from that aspect of, you know, what does what does forgiveness look like and how do we do it well?

Justin:

Well, we uh I recently heard a teaching on this by a good friend Karen.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And um she said, and I agree, that forgiveness um the the the enemy to forgiveness is pride whether you’re trying to give forgiveness or request it

Mark:

right

Justin:

when you’re trying to forgive someone you’re in natural desires like we were I was just saying, like to have that resentment to say, you know, they don’t deserve forgiveness, so why should I give it kind of thing? That’s that pride, or vice versa, like, well that’s It’s their fault too. Why should I apologize? That kind of thing. And it’s it’s the enemy of forgiveness um in both directions, prior to

Mark:

Yes. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. In Celebrate Recovery we have a step called amends. And um it’s essentially a forgiveness step. Um the desire is, you know Real quick breakdown of the steps, simplified version, like you kinda enter the program and we work through some denial and some powerless steps to kinda figure out like I don’t have it. I need help.

Mark:

Mm-hmm. I

Justin:

I have big bigger problems than I realize. That kind of thing. And then we move into kind of some hope in higher power and this idea that okay, now that I recognize I don’t have what it takes, there is something that does and it’s Call the higher power, Jesus Christ. You know, and and in that process we then enter into what we call the inventory process where, all right, now that we know we have something above ourselves that can help us through this, you know Um oh and then there’s also a development of community step that says, all right, start building a team of accountability partners or sponsors, you know, that kind of thing. And then you start working through your inventory, which is basically you know, dig up all the dirty laundry from your your past, you know, unroll all the rugs you swept stuff under.

Mark:

Open all the closet doors.

Justin:

Open all the closet doors. Yeah, peel back the band-aids that got festering wounds in them. Do all the things. Um and and do it, you know, as do a th as thorough a job as you can kind of digging all that stuff up and get it written down in a clear way. You know, systematically. We have this systematic approach. And then you move into the fifth step which is giving your inventory to someone else, which sounds appalling and if if you’ve never heard of recovery and kind of the steps you might go, Why would you do that? you know. Even the the inventory part, like why would you go back and dig up old stuff, you know. Um, just trust me it works. But after you get to that, you know, you kind of as you give your uh inventory, you start to process your part. in these things because in almost everything, you know, maybe abuse being uh sometimes the exception. Sometimes right there. Right. But as y as someone who’s abused Um I’ve definitely heard uh testimonies from people who admitted that they were asking for b now don’t this is a this is a scary thing to say, right? Because you never want to put the victim in a place of blame. But I I’m just saying I’ve heard people acknowledge their side in that. Sure. And there’s healing that comes from that.

Mark:

Um

Justin:

anyway, I don’t even want to say that. I feel like that’s that’s a

Mark:

I hear where you come from.

Justin:

But anyway, as you process through all these things, you get to a place of, okay, it’s amen’s time. It’s time for me to make the apologies I need to make and give forgiveness I need to forgive. Um so that’s where that teaching we recently recently heard was from. Um one of my favorite aspects to that teaching and that principle. is we say not for them.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it’s just one little sentence we say, it g it gets included in the material and every time it that it’s taught and it means so much is this idea that when I ask for forgiveness or you know when I apologize apologizing and asking for forgiveness aren’t exactly the same thing, right?

Mark:

I hear you. Um

Justin:

I mean they can be, but I’m saying like

Mark:

they can be one in the same as but they don’t have to be

Justin:

correct, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So uh kind of the amend step is more focused on the apology than the asking for for in other words I’m not asking anything from you. I’m doing this for my side of the street. Clean up my side of the street. And so I’m gonna apologize and take full ownership and responsibility of my part.

Mark:

Kind of a confession, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. Um but in a way that does ask for forgiveness but doesn’t expect it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um And it’s the ideas and we say not for them, it means when I go to apologize, I’m not trying to make you better.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because that’s the tendency, that’s the desire. And again, if you’re not good at this whole thing of amends, that would be your kind of first expectation is that this is gonna make them feel better and they’ll forgive me and we’ll have, you know, this magical moment and we’re it’s really trying to set up this idea that And a lot of times when you’re in recovery, the people you hurt, that that’s one little apology, you know, or it maybe very heartfelt, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh is isn’t necessarily gonna release all the binds, you know, of or you know, repair all the broken strands in the relationship that you’ve caused over the the years and whatever.

Mark:

And I think that’s the difficult part to see. It’s like you know, yes, you’re you’re offering this amend, but it’s like you’ve done this for years.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m supposed to just forgive you because now you’ve come to recognize it and this heart has been you know, this hurt has been in inflicted upon me for a long time, you know. So yeah, being able to recognize that Yeah, that forgiveness piece can be a process of time if we’re looking at it in a reciprocal manner. And yet, you know, there is a there is a freedom. There is a I’ll I won’t I don’t like the word instantaneous necessarily, but there is a instantaneous dynamic to being able to ask forgiveness you know, that is is part of that process, but it’s not

Justin:

giving it, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. It doesn’t make it necessarily immediate in a reciprocal manner.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good. I like yeah, I like what you’re saying ’cause there’s two benefits. There’s the short term and the long term. Because in most cases but you know again the the the material and the the process would explain to you. Sometimes you won’t get the short term and so you shouldn’t expect that. That’s kind of what the knot for them is.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

But there’s still if you’re doing it for the right reasons a certain release that can happen in your own integrity. No. It says I I’m make making this thing right and this is where it starts.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But long term is This is where it starts, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um especially if it’s someone that’s actively in your life. There now there might be amends you make to someone that’s kind of an impassing type of person and It’s it’s a one and done deal and they’re like, Okay, all right, I hear ya. No problem, dude. Yeah, and they and they’re like, it doesn’t matter to them, but it mattered to you, and that’s why you do it, you know.

Mark:

Right

Justin:

But for most people it’s a short term, all right, I started the journey, you know, with with with the process. But yeah, like you said at the very beginning. Time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

‘Cause like again, like you said, they’re they’re thinking about all the times that we messed up and all the the the ways And so it’s gonna take time to prove that’s not the person I am anymore.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s true of all forgiveness and all you know, asking for forgiveness, whether you’re in recovery or not. Like it doesn’t mean a whole lot if your intention is not to change.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

In fact they can actually see that.

Mark:

I think that is a part of forgiveness, you know um that there is there is also this aspect of turning away from that action that I had before You know, that’s another step in the process is that turning, you know, that says, okay, yeah, you can see that my desire to be forgiven is heartfelt because I’m really making a conscious effort not to interact in that way anymore.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Not that I might not have to ask forgiveness again when I slip or if I slip, I should say, but at the same time, the the you can see that there’s a sincerity. That says, yeah, I’m I’m really working to create a change here and I’m recognizing, and I think that there again, that becomes part of humility That ability to say, okay, yep, I did that thing again, and I realize it has an impact on you And, you know, and I think that I think that’s what makes it and I think that’s when scripture talks about, you know, well, how many times should we forgive someone? You know, because I think there is this process that wants to say, yeah, well, you know Yeah, you ask for you ask me for give forgiveness every time you’re sorry, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think we can kinda, you know, the the word can get you know, overused in such a way that, you know, questions the sincerity of the action. So yeah, it’s just uh

Justin:

which could go to the apology styles again, like yeah. Uh what was that quote? You had a quote that

Mark:

from one of our uh

Justin:

Mark is doing a very rare thing.

Mark:

I am I’m looking

Justin:

at his phone.

Mark:

Uh in the midst of a midst of I Is it fairly

Justin:

that’s my uh

Mark:

Is it fair to say this would be a first?

Justin:

I believe so.

Mark:

It’d be pretty close. Yeah. Either way. Yeah.

Justin:

Usually his phone’s like in his trucker Ruby ‘s making phone calls.

Mark:

Exactly. But uh this is from Ruth uh Ruth Ruth Bell Graham said, A happy marriage is the union of two forgivers. If you truly want Christ at the center of your marriage, forgiveness must be ready and waiting.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

Yeah, that was shared by someone in our small group and I thought and I and I was thinking about it in directly. There you go, Ruth Graham Bell indirectly. Yeah. Yeah. Ruth Bell Graham. I guess this way. Yeah. But either way, someone related to Jimmy. No, not Jimmy. Yeah.

Justin:

Jimmy Graham.

Mark:

Billy Graham.

Justin:

Billy Graham.

Mark:

Billy Graham, sorry. Billy Jimmy. See, I get Jimmy mixed up with Billy sometimes. Jimmy in our small group because he just reminds me.

Justin:

Of Billy.

Mark:

Yeah, of Billy Graham. He’s a preacher. He’s a preacher.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, that that ass I like that because I’ve always heard, you know, the t marriages, um you know, the best marriages are two servants in love. And, you know, to think about it, two forgivers in love. Because you you realize, I mean, I realize in a lot of cases you’re married to a human being, an imperfect person.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So to recognize that, yeah, there won’t be any flaws in our uh that’s that those expectations are too high.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So to be able to recognize at times that, you know, I’m gonna make mistakes so and you’re gonna make mistakes. So therefore you know, this this desire to be a forgiver helps me extend grace, you know, to you and recognize I need your grace. you know, at times when I when I’m the one that, you know, made the mistake type thing. And I like that context because you think about it. If if humility is the basis of forgiveness or the desire It keeps pride from like creating that division. Because what you you when you think about what pride does in a relationship, that’s that’s basically all it does is create division.

Justin:

Yep

Mark:

You know, and I think about that in that context, you know, that Satan’s desire is to divide and conquer type thing, you know, and I think pride is that. one of those one of those tools that he can use to create that division and you know and therefore Because I think, you know, the I think we can tend to think about forgiveness as something like, you know, you know, in a in a relationship at times, you know, we can think about, well, you know, I’m sorry I didn’t you know, I spattered toothpaste on the mirror, you know, but in reality there’s a lot of deeper things that are far more difficult to forgive when we think of, you know, infidelity or you know, just those those deeper things of the heart. It’s like you there is that part of us that would if we wrestle with that or you know, if we have wrestled with that, it’s like Okay, what does that forgiveness look like? And how do I offer that, you know, in the midst of unfaithfulness or, you know, you know, deception or lies or, you know, those kind of things because You you you have a choice at that moment. And it’s like if if I if I forgive I’m actually putting myself back in a vulnerable position again.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I think, you know, we’ve and I think we have talked about vulnerability before, you know, and the power of it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yet In our culture, that’s not necessarily something that’s viewed as valuable.

Justin:

Right. It’s also conflated with weakness, which I think we talked about in that episode that sometimes w if you learn to be vulnerable in a you know a certain way it it becomes a form of strength

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

I believe.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

You know, and so being able to forgive someone and put yourself back in that, you know, vulnerable state of connection again. um is a strength that’s much stronger than not forgiving and it feels much weak you know, like you’re much weaker. No doubt. In some senses that that makes sense. But I’m just saying like that’s a strength that I I think a lot mm a lot of people d maybe never even taste that strength of vulnerability.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To be able to say, I’m gonna In other words, when I’m vulnerable, I’m not uh um losing a support that I was leaning on, right? Like I can still stand straight while being vulnerable.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that takes, I think, practice and maybe skill even to to learn that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That I can be vulnerable without falling over.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

And it and I well I think in some ways it it de it helps define a relationship in a healthy manner. That basically says, you know, I’m not dependent upon you. I am in I am interdependent, you know, with Christ to be able to have a strength that says, okay. If you forgive me or you don’t forgive me, I’m still gonna be okay. And I’m gonna, you know, I can move forward, you know. And I’m okay if even I’m okay even if this relationship experienced some momentary distance.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because, you know, we’re processing this dynamic of forgiveness. And it, you know, kinda the the strength of forgiveness or, you know, that vulnerability piece, it reminds me of that that quote, what uh Forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting somebody else to

Justin:

Expecting the rat to die.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah, not forgiving, actually. Yeah, is like drinking poison. Or someone else. Yes. Yeah. And so I think about it in that when you were talking about taste. You know, that’s what kind of comes to mind. It’s like, yeah, it can be a bitter thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but yet it there is a freedom that’s available in that the it can eventually overcome the bitterness.

Justin:

Yeah, absolutely. In and will.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Well, you know, if if you don’t let the pride kinda get back in there.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Work your way back into your previous state or double it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So that’s the thing a lot of times too is forgiveness. That’s why I was saying I think it takes practice to get good at it because again, maybe as you s your first few forays into true f you know, like forgiving us significant thing against you, you would have this expectation, all right, that’s behind us. You know, we’re you know, like you said, we’re imperfect humans and by imperfect we have habits.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And those habits tend to surface and hurt others in the same way.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, over and over. Like in you know, your toothpaste spattered on the the wall, right? Like or on the mirror thing, I think is a good example of that. Like that can really you know, and th like that’s just uh one example, but socks on the floor, sure. You know, whatever it is. Um, it can become this grading thing, right? That becomes bigger and bigger and then other things start getting attached to it, or it it gets attached to other things like you don’t care for me because if you did I would see it through things like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The toothpaste spattered on the mirror.

Mark:

You can wipe it off the mirror.

Justin:

Right. You just you know ever it’s clearly it’s very clear that there you don’t care, right? And And so now I know and that’s why you did this other thing too, is cause you don’t care and right and it starts to build and grow and faster and And then we might come to this come to Jesus moment where we say, I’m going to forgive him with my good heart. And we go forgive him or her and say, I forgive you for that. I know you’re just human and all whatever. And w and again, if you’re unpracticed, there likely will be this expectation that we’ve gained new ground.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

That’s only true on the forgiver side if you mean it. Right. Like I there’s not like again, not for them. There shouldn’t be an expectation that that person then is gonna go, Man, I’m so thankful that they’re willing to forgive me for that and I’m I’m really I’m really gonna change my ways here and start wiping the toothpaste off the mirror or whatever. Um That’s very unlikely with the first forgiveness session, right? Like they’re you’re probably gonna find it. Maybe you’ll it maybe it’ll be clean for a week or two.

Mark:

Yeah, and I think I I I recogni uh I I it’s interesting as you think about that, because quite often I’ll when I’m working with couples I’ll, you know, I’ll address that. You know, that process of, okay, yeah, there’s been this offense, whether it’s pornography or, you know, this kind of thing. And it and it And there’s this aspect where I ha I kinda it’s almost like a gauge for me that basically kind of says

Justin:

like this skill level of assessment.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s like a s it’s kind of, but I’m actually gauging the willingness of the individual to forgive. It’s like, okay, and I’m recognizing that I don’t want we don’t want this to happen again, but what if it does?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in this process of change, because it’s not a this isn’t gonna be or likely won’t be you know, it rarely is something a cold turkey quit. You know, whether it’s smoking, alcohol, you know, pornography. And I and I think about it in that context, ’cause you’re not that I’m excusing the behavior at all. But yet to basically change a cycle, you know, to to turn that It’s rarely gonna happen in just one instant.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, if we think it when I think of my own mistakes, my own failures, it’s like I r rarely are the times when I failed once, I asked for forgiveness, and I moved on and was done.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Not that there wasn’t a desire to turn and you know. And I think it’s interesting too, because there’s another dynamic that I’ve seen, you know, in relationship, especially where, you know, like infidelity or, you know, it’s very When where infidelity is involved, I think it’s very important to be able to be mindful of who I tell about that. Because it it’s interesting even with d even with divorce and things like that. I’ve seen where the two individuals, you know, who experience, you know, husband and wife, you know, who get divorced their ability to forgive one another is far greater than their family’s right ability to forgive the ex-spouse. You know, that that’s my siblings you know, would have a much harder time, you know, forgiving my ex-spouse. And I don’t uh I think that’s something that it’s always been fascinating to me. you know, how when someone hurts someone who is close to us, how difficult that process is to forgive when you when you when you think about, you know Yeah, someone who hurts your kids or someone who hurts, you know, you know, it’s just there there’s a there’s a deeper level there that you know It’s just it’s it’s it’s fascinating and powerful at the same time.

Justin:

Yeah. Wow.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Good thought.

Mark:

And it’s not like, you know We it’s uh sometimes we just don’t recognize that how far those things go.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, the consequences of sin, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, we don’t recognize how many people are impacted and so yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, there’s um yeah, it makes me think of um again as is as part of my process of recovery and and things that I’ve learned that one of the things I need to continually process is resentment. And um and it’s it’s just something I’ve learned. You know, that’s a it’s a weakness of mine. To in and I can see it almost in a familial way of like being passed down in a sense and various other family members where there’s there’s an a kind of a trait a tendency towards resentment in n and yeah, like just really I would I would say being hurt by things more than it should be. Right? Like that’s kind of how I would define the resentment. So for me, it’s about the way I get back to a normal level of uh understanding of how that situation did is processing it with someone else, which I’ve learned over the years of recovery or whatever that it has to be a very safe environment, very safe relationship where there’s an understanding between us that this is never ever meant for you to be on my side. You know, I have no desire for for that at all, what I need is someone to push back on me and say, have you considered this? And have you you know, that kind of thing. Um because kinda like what you’re saying, like uh there’s a danger there in sharing our hurts in our resentments with someone else and then them carrying that burden and then me going, Okay, now my burden’s lighter, I can move on with my life but now they’re carrying it, right? It’s like now I can forgive my spouse because I told my all my siblings and, you know, I feel better and I’m ready to move on. And they’re all left holding this baggage, you know what I’m saying?

Mark:

Kind of poisoned the well type thing that you would refer to. I was thinking about that in the context of as you mention And here again, I’m I’m curious on your perspective, ’cause you bring it up from that transgenerational dynamic of, you know, resentment being handed down. How would you say that has affected your ability to forgive, extend forgiveness. In other words, do you see that? I mean, I’m not looking for an obvious answer. I’m looking for the, you know, how has that

Justin:

Well I mean without working on it, it makes it way harder to forgive. Is that what you’re asking?

Mark:

That’s not something that I wrestle with, but not that I don’t have plenty of other things that I do wrestle with, but resentment isn’t necessarily one of those things. I find myself on that. Well, I just

Justin:

struggle with jealousy.

Mark:

But it’s like, you know, and I guess that’s that’s why I’m asking the question, you know, because I’m thinking about it in a context of people who wrestle with that resentment to be able to speak with to that.

Justin:

I mean, I I could certainly speak to it. Yeah. Um I I’ll say it makes forgiveness way harder. I mean ’cause Ugh, it’s kind of that toothpaste batter concept that I was saying. Like when you see that toothpaste batter, you associate it with a much bigger, nefarious, you know, kind of thing going on, um, you know.

Mark:

So you in some ways it’s not only the toothpaste But it explains why they did that and that and that and that.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And they just don’t they just don’t care about you.

Justin:

Well it’s a little bit more than a little bit.

Mark:

Does it go I mean

Justin:

um

Mark:

like a ruminating type thing?

Justin:

Yes. So I’ve you know There’s there’s kind of two sides to us, our emotional side and our brain side, I would say, you know, when it comes to kind of processing things like this. And for me it’s it’s definitely the emotional side is the side that’s triggered, which you know, I I I don’t I don’t like to admit that makes me like a, you know, an emotional man, right? Like But I’ve just learned that that’s true. Like that’s the emotions that are triggered most often. A sense of insecurity probably is the most probably the most triggering one. Um And so, you know, all these emotions flare up and it starts those emotions trigger my thinking and my thinking about why would they do that and kinda processing all these things. But the end of the day, being in in CR m long enough and seeing just seeing truth play out, recognizing like there’s it’s probably not as evil, right? Like more than likely they are like me and that they are centered on themselves. And the actions that are h you know, the things that are happening is a result of them not necessarily considering me Which is not the same thing as they don’t want me to succeed or they want me to, you know, fail whatever whatever the thing is, you know. Uh they they don’t Or they don’t like me or yeah, and or even that. Like I look at you and I don’t care. It’s not that. It’s more like No, I’m looking at me and I’m trying to take care of my stuff and I I got all these and I don’t even mean that in like a self centered, selfish way. I mean like They’re work they their life is hard too and they they’re fo focused on solving their own life’s problems and they’re not necessarily always aware. of the fact that it’s impacting me, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So there’s this brain emotion battle that kind of goes back and forth and usually I don’t have uh I shouldn’t say usually. I’m getting better at like kind of coming to a resolution, but um I’ve needed for a long time the the ability to process with someone else and kind of kind of work through it and even just talking through it often will give bring me to a a a good conclusion of okay, it’s probably not some evil thing, it’s probably just this and I can forgive that. You know what I mean? Um But the other thing that a struggle i is someone who struggles with resentment is that you do all that work and it takes, you know, some effort and then you see the toothpaste batter again and you’re You you kinda have to do it all again.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

But now you have the tools, you have the pattern, you can work through all of that and go and kind of arrive at the same conclusion. But then you see it again. Yeah. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe there is something to this. They’re evil. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it’s uh

Mark:

That’s that that’s that time process really. The combination of growth. And being able to forgive and move beyond the resentment. Yeah.

Justin:

But I guess back to what very beginning of the conversation, um Forgiveness is ongoing. You know? And that toothpaste there’s no guarantee that toothpaste is not gonna be spattered. You know. Yeah. And uh obviously that’s a metaphor, right? For whatever the thing is, but There’s no guarantee that this session of forgiveness is gonna be the last one. So that’s part of m the process too is recognizing More of that. The coming to a resolution in my mind that is more pattern based and saying, therefore they are there’s a good chance that this will happen again, but I can understand it. Sure. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, and I think that’s the input that’s what I was thinking as you were sharing. A lot of what you were sharing in the resentment has to do with the way that I think about that other person who has offended me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I’m also willing to recognize on the other half of the resentment is the person who’s holding on to it. And maybe in some ways that I’m not inability is the wrong word, but you know, that that uh self-awareness, I’ll call it. Yeah, that basically says, well, I have this other thing that I do. Because I think in that aspect of resentment, I can see myself as elevated.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I’m, you know, I’m the one on the throne who has been offended.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I I was thinking about that in that context of, you know, because I think a lot of what we’re talking about takes both self-awareness and others’ awareness. you know, and being able to say, okay, that’s how I think about them, but wait a second, what does that really say about me? And what how am I looking at this and what is my advantage in that process

Justin:

Yeah, I’m really glad you said that because I I didn’t really make that clear, but that’s certainly been

Mark:

And I’m not accusing you of having it elevated, I apologize. No, that’s

Justin:

I would say that’s exactly what happens in the flare-up Right. Okay. You know, you you mess with my throne or whatever kind of Yeah. And I would say that what you just described is definitely part of the tool set um to kind of recognize mm my part in it and how could I have contributed to this and is there maybe I’m doing something that hurts them that causes them to do that I’m not aware of it and I kind of processing through maybe I did maybe I said that a certain way and kind of trying to take more of it onto myself. And I would even say for a while maybe I went too far that way.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Right? Where I would take I’d be like, well it’s it’s my fault. Okay, I feel better. It’s all my fault. It’s my fault. And I wouldn’t It wouldn’t I can it wasn’t like I was beating myself up up about it. It just gave me some release in the situation. Okay, alright, that’s fine, it’s my fault. All right, good, let’s move on kind of thing. Um, but again, I think I that became a crutch too.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

And it started to become clear, like, you know, it’s not always my fault.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And having to learn how to forgive when it isn’t my fault.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And so that’s been a journey too, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And now find

Mark:

and finding that balance, if you will. And I know, you know, when you do an inventory, that kind of thing, they w encourage you to have a balanced inventory. You know, it’s not all about the people that have offended me and it’s not all about the people that I have offended. It’s this combination thereof. And I think that’s helpful in this process of forgiveness to be able to recognize that yes There are some people I whether a person asks me for forgiveness or not, I can extend that. You know, and quite often I’ll wrestle with that with people. you know, in session o about, you know, uh you know, maybe parents or somebody who has passed away. You know, and I think there’s a tremendous power in that ability to be able to say, yeah, you can’t talk with that person. You can’t ask that, but you can still extend forgiveness, you know, even, you know, postmortem type thing to, you know, says, hey. Yeah, this is something that I’m holding on to and it’s beneficial for me to let go of that. Yeah. Even though it will have no effect on that other individual whatsoever. It has you know.

Justin:

Yeah, one of the things that’s in the a men’s teaching that’s super important uh I think anytime you talk about forgiveness it’s important to talk about this that forgiveness is not um excusing someone’s behavior.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And again, that’s another conflation that happens. It’s like, well, if I forgive this them, then that means it’s okay what they did. No, absolutely doesn’t.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It does not. They’re not the same thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And forgiveness is not condoning or accepting poor behavior.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s saying, I forgive you. It’s it’s a it’s a very distinct action. that’s not com should not be completed.

Mark:

And I think it’s interesting even if I may to take that one step further when Jesus was on the cross. to be able to say, you know, in his prayer, he’s basically saying, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. You know, in that process, it’s like, and sometimes that’s That’s what those, you know, small egregances like the toothpaste are. You know, it’s like the person doesn’t even know it sometimes. And we can harbor that. Yeah. You know, and we don’t want to necessarily say anything dependent on personality style, but yeah, you know, or other time on the other end you can nag and nag and, you know, and it doesn’t so it’s like, you know, for g and I was That’s what reminded me of. It’s like forgive them for they know not what they do. And being able to recognize I have some things that I don’t know that I’m doing to other people. as well.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, it’s not a it’s not a nefarious type, you know, endeavor on my part to be able to say, well, yeah. I’m more important. It’s just a matter of me being me and sometimes being clueless.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. There’s a there’s so many directions to go with this. I I think about uh new leeweeds too. And I think, you know, going back to what we were saying earlier the hard thing there becomes these patterns start to become apparent and again depending on y y um everyone grew up in different families. situation. So when you join together, you come in with that baggage and those expectations of this is how families do family, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

And this person doesn’t do family like we do family and therefore they don’t care. It’s so easy to quickly conflate that with uh, you know, they don’t love me the way I thought they loved me or whatever.

Mark:

Different is wrong.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And there’s just this learning process of forgiveness of all these little offenses, but also learning where boundary should be and where we say, you know The toothpaste thing, that’s something that really bothers me. I’d really like you to do better there. And like have it trying to have a boundary there. And then when they don’t say All right. I’ll clean it, you know. I don’t know. It’s like it’s a this hard balance to figure out what battles are worth fighting in when you I I want to say You know, if newlyweds I I think it can be difficult ’cause it feels like every battle’s worth fighting because every battle represents winning or losing the war almost. Sure. Right? Like if you do it like that, how can we be married if you do it like that?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, parenting is

Mark:

another well, you know, you gotta pick your battles.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To that to that degree. And like you’re saying, and you know, early early marriage, newlyweds. You know, it’s like everything can seem like an offense.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And being able to recognize, no, that’s not the case. It’s just, you know, two people who grew up differently. Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, coming back again to that quote, two forgivers in marriage, two servants. It’s like, okay, yep.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I hear I you know, one servant can say, I hear you in that process and you’re valuable to me, and yes, I can do something about that. you know, that’s a wicked difference between, you know, what’s the big deal for crying out loud, get over it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, that’s that’s that’s that if you know, that’s that pride, you know, humility. you know, difference personified, if you will, to a certain degree. In a simplified version, of course, but yeah.

Justin:

And you know, how do we go through the whole thing about forgiveness and not talk about Jesus’ quote about how many times I forgive do we

Mark:

I mentioned it earlier, but yeah

Justin:

seven times seven. Okay, sorry. Uh we did mention that’s how you don’t. You we can’t you can’t get through with that. We already did, so we’re gonna add it twice. But yeah. This is I love that context of, you know, someone asking how many times I have to forgive someone who offends me and seven times, he says seventy times seven. You know, just it’s kind of this exponential concept of You know

Mark:

Just keep forgiving.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s there’s nothing magical about you know seventy seven numbers. Yeah. Seven when you reach seventy seven it’s like, all right, now you can be now

Mark:

let the hammer down. That’s right. That’s right.

Justin:

Yeah. It was this idea that Whatever you think it is, it’s way more. Yeah. You know? So get used to just doing it and stop counting, basically.

Mark:

And being able to recognize that, you know It’s not ignoring the offense.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s it’s still being able to have the choice that I don’t hold on to that resentment. that builds while I’m keeping track. And I think, you know, it it there is a definite freedom in that ability to be able to say, okay. Yep. And it and I’m not saying it’s as nonchalant. you know, as okay, yeah, I forgive you because some, you know, events, you know, whoo, you know, that’s where the time comes in because it’s like, okay, but you don’t recognize this has happened before, you know, this has happened, you know, and and to, you know, and I guess that’s the beauty of the life Jesus lived, you know, it’s like He always forgave in the process of an additional offense.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, this more and more. And you know, it’s like that’s a that’s a real heart dynamic. Because he recognizes the, you know, the freedom that comes with that. Because if anybody could have held a a grudge, it would be Jesus in that process of perfection. It’s like You know, but he didn’t and yeah, that’s a that’s a a nugget.

Justin:

Oh, yeah.

Mark:

Your nugget fell out of your pocket. I could see it. You had something you were ready to say and I went. Three seconds too long. It was about Jesus in the process of being able to forgive even though he was perfect. He still forgave and and freedom that comes from forgiveness for the individual that’s fully.

Justin:

Too much pressure, I’m not gonna be able to do it. Okay. It’ll come back.

Mark:

That’s all right. I was gonna say well maybe not in this program, but

Justin:

No, it was good. I’m sure it was.

Mark:

I’m sure it was. Yes. That’s why I was Oh nice job. Woo! He found it.

Justin:

It felt good enough that I was like, I don’t know if I want to end without saying I can’t remember. All right. So the the key the key to forgiveness in from Jesus’ perspective is having a view on uh you know how much we’ve been forgiven.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Right. And so I c I can’t really imagine how much more difficult it it is to be a forgiving person if you really have this view of being on the pedestal or the throne or like, you know, I’m kind of I’m, you know, the one human being in this world who doesn’t do all the bad things, you know. You think about driving and so on this everyone else is a stupid driver, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

do that, like every person in our lives we kinda think, you know, I’m I’m the pinnacle of integrity and everyone else is kind of although you you might have a few bright lights in the distance of people you look at and think, Well they’re probably better than me but like I don’t know. We kinda have this idea of I need to be forgiven less because the reasons I do things are obvious and you know, I have these wounds.

Mark:

My intentions are good.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. You you you’re able to justify it, you’re able to give yourself plenty of forgiveness. Funny, you know. Um depending on what you did. Now there are some people who struggle with forgiveness for themselves for various, you know. I’m not gonna go there, but that’s certainly a thing. But what Jesus would speak about was, you know, he w gave this parable of the servant who went to this, you know, his mm you know, the guy who borrowed mone money from, right? And he said, I’m sorry, I don’t have the money. And the guy was pretty upset. He said, Well, you know I’m gonna throw you in jail or whatever and he said, Please f you know, forgive me and um I you know, I’ll make it right or whatever and he said, You know what? I am gonna forgive you and you don’t have to make it right. I forgive you a hundred percent. You don’t owe me. We’re good. And they m moved on with their life. Well, a little bit later that same servant was forgiven that debt, and it was a large, large debt, like a life debt type of thing. Um he had his own someone who borrowed money from him or something and it was a small much smaller amount and you know, the person said, I’m sorry, I can’t pay it and he said, Ah, I’m you’re in trouble and he threw him in jail, right? And he he basically Jesus was saying Uh and what was the rest of that parable? Does he he goes does the original person?

Mark:

Yeah, in other words, he was kind of like coming out of the temple as it was, and then other people who witnessed that dynamic. went and reported it to the official that like Joe didn’t forgive

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

you know Bill because he had and so it got back to the official And the official resumed resummons him and basically said, you know, you wicked fool, you know, how are you to, you know, not forgive that individual who you know, offended you when I forgave you this lifetime of indebtedness.

Justin:

Yeah. And basically put all the debt back on him, threw him in jail. That kind of thing. Yeah. So Jesus, that was the parable for essentially the amount of forgiveness that, you know, he has given us for the offenses that we’ve done, is you know, especially if we if we’ve accepted his you know, payment for our sins.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And he’s saying, how can you with that debt paid then go and hold your spouse that debt for the you know, splatter on the mirror, right? Like how can you do that when uh you’ve been forgiven this much? And I think that’s a really important perspective for someone like me who struggles with resentment to get back to to say, Well, you know what, I messed up too and you know, I’ve been forgiven a lot and I not just by Jesus but by my spouse And by, you know, Mark and by whoever, right? Like these people that I tend to hurt with just my normal patterns in life, you know. Um That I think I can forgive this thing, you know? I think that’s part one of the tools. But yeah, I just I felt like it was important. You know, I just really want to share that nugget. It the one that fell on the floor. I picked it back up and dusted it off.

Mark:

Nice job finding it rather quickly even.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for uh rounding out the the parable. I I I I I was a little fuzzy on the The ending, but you you nailed it.

Mark:

It’s all good. Happy to be here.

Justin:

Mark and Justin’s version.

Mark:

There you go. Yes. Yes. Paraphrase. Yeah. So thanks for sharing on forgiveness, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Welcome. Thanks for bringing the topic.

Mark:

Not a problem. Happy to do so.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.