Mark:

Good morning, sir.

Justin:

Good morning.

Mark:

Yes, it is.

Justin:

How are you, Mark?

Mark:

I am well. Yes indeed. Just just enjoying the cool damp morning and yeah.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah. smell of fall in the air when you get enough leaves on the ground. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, did you go trick-or-treating last night?

Mark:

I did not. I did not. I had sessions till a little bit later, so I had my own form of treating, I guess.

Justin:

Treatment.

Mark:

Try not to try not to no no no tricks. No no tricks.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. We we went a little and did a little bit of trick-or-treating.

Mark:

Good for you. Did you dress up?

Justin:

Uh me and my wife got out our old letter jackets from high school.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Yeah, and uh our jerseys from high school our basketball jerseys We had that snap. She I don’t know where she pulled that out.

Mark:

That’s cool.

Justin:

We uh win as our high school selves.

Mark:

Nice. Yeah, your hair is a little bit short for your high school self, isn’t it, huh?

Justin:

Uh d yes, probably. Probably, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Understood. But that’s all right.

Justin:

I’m more beardy too.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Yeah.

Mark:

Huh.

Justin:

Well yeah, so that was that was fun.

Mark:

I think I think my my last Letterman’s jacket went with the last move.

Justin:

Oh really?

Mark:

Yeah, I don’t think I officially have a Letterman’s jacket anymore.

Justin:

That’s too bad. That probably was a cool one.

Mark:

Well it was it was uh it wasn’t one of the classic ones were like with the leather sleeves. They changed they changed that about two years before our guys. So it was just kind of a yeah. Yeah. It was okay, but

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. It wasn’t the old old school leather and wool leather sleeves with the wool middle. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Ours here, I’ll show you a picture. Everyone can uh just imagine it.

Mark:

You’re gonna have to link it now. You’re gonna have to link

Justin:

it. Oh I also got a horse head mask, so

Mark:

Oh nice. Yeah, so you guys had the classic.

Justin:

Yep

Mark:

Letterman’s jacket still. Yeah, yeah. No, we were uh the Trojans, so it was kind of a more of a maroon wool.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

But yeah, no.

Justin:

We were the Patriots.

Mark:

Nice

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Nice, nice. You’ll have to link that with your horse head on there.

Justin:

Yeah, I will. That’s right. It’s a good picture.

Mark:

So yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. Uh yeah, so Halloween. Um you know you said I am well. Sometimes I say, Oh, that’s good And I want to say, Oh, that’s well. And I’m like, no, that’s not right. Because you know you’re supposed to say, I’m well, not I’m good.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I I think I’ve gotten that habit down pretty good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But sometimes I still think the response.

Mark:

That’s okay.

Justin:

I’m glad you’re doing well, Mark.

Mark:

Well thanks. And I’m glad you uh I’m glad you still fit in your leatherman’s jacket. That’s cool.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s cool. It actually has always been a little too big for me, so.

Mark:

Oh, so now it fits?

Justin:

No, it’s still too big.

Mark:

It’s still too big.

Justin:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Mark:

Well that’s good too. I think

Justin:

Megan used to wear it.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

So it was really big on her.

Mark:

Did you wear hers too? Did you guys like do that dating thing where you exchange rings you just exchanged Letterman’s jacket?

Justin:

We did not. I couldn’t fit in hers.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. I’m sure I put it on as a joke once or twice, but

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s all right.

Justin:

So speaking of high school.

Mark:

High school. Yes. Oh man. Oof. Oof. Oof.

Justin:

Oof. How was your uh tell me about your high school mark. How how was your level of your uh let’s say the continuum between humility and pride and or maybe speak a little bit to how you your sense of self-esteem or self-confidence, you know, how how that how did you feel about yourself in high school?

Mark:

Wow Um

Justin:

thinking about that leather jacket.

Mark:

Yeah, thinking about that. Um Hmm. That’s a good that’s a good the the leather the letterman’s jacket. I d I just did track. I’ll be honest. I did track just for the sake of getting a letterman’s jacket.

Justin:

Oh nice.

Mark:

So it wasn’t like I was a

Justin:

So Letterman jackets were a pretty legit deal for your

Mark:

Yeah, I just wanted a letter. So I like you say I did I did track my like uh junior senior year, uh played basketball, you know, in grade school up through till junior high. That kind of thing, you know. Um Just just didn’t really like the pressure that went along with basketball. Speaking of that, you know, and I didn’t like to dribble I wasn’t I wasn’t a tremendous dribbler. I was a great a good shooter because of the like the basketball court across from our house. I’d just go over there and shoot. But I got you. Yeah I’d pass off the ball as soon as I could. So that’s that’s where that that’s where that self-confidence piece kind of comes to my mind. You know, it’s like basketball wasn’t my thing. But um and then track uh I did all the field events, shot put, discus, and javelin. I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t uh yeah uh do the sprinting m I sprinted very little, like say.

Justin:

It’s kind of surprising because you n I definitely think of you as a runner.

Mark:

I I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe even though I’m not sure if you’re not going to be able to do that. I probably could have done okay in distance type things, you know, distance events. But uh I definitely wasn’t as fast as the sprinters on our team type stuff. Okay. You know, I would have had to have done a 50 yard to do anything.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. But um and then I my English teacher kind of comes to mind. She uh she would routinely say, Mark, you’re either gonna be, you know, president or you’re gonna be a used car salesman. You know, and I she had that. She she

Justin:

was wrong because you’re neither.

Mark:

But show her. what she saw I mean she she saw me as someone who tended to be very gregarious, you know, and I nef definitely never was at a loss for words to be able to speak. you know, in front of people and even persuade people at times. So that was it was it was

Justin:

you were kind of shy, right?

Mark:

No, I would have been anything but shy.

Justin:

What grade was she

Mark:

She would have been well, I probably had her twice, you know, you know, based on, you know, lit or, you know, like a literature type thing and then, you know, like another form of like uh g mythology or something like that, you know, like

Justin:

but definitely high school.

Mark:

Yeah, definitely high school. Definitely high school. Yeah, the where that would um I was definitely I wasn’t, you know, the jock. I wasn’t the geek. You know, I was just kinda there was back then it seemed like there was a middle of the ground type person.

Justin:

There was.

Mark:

Yeah, I wasn’t a I wasn’t a, you know, what w what voag, you know, I wasn’t a Aggie, you know, FFA. Are you familiar? Oh future farmers of America. Okay. You know, uh agri yeah, Voag. You know, I

Justin:

think Agriculture.

Mark:

Yeah, to where like you say, and I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t

Justin:

you weren’t with the the farmer nerds

Mark:

Right. Exactly. And I wasn’t with the computer nerds or geeks, you know, that kind of thing. I wasn’t uh, you know, a a jock by any means. And I wasn’t, you know

Justin:

,

Mark:

I wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t goth. I wasn’t punk punk rock. Yeah, I was really kind of middle of the road. It’s it’s funny as I think about it. It’s it’s really I’m still who I am today in some ways based on that. It’s like I can just kind of flow in between and around. It’s not like I’m, you know, uh on one continuum or the other. short of short of hopefully being a Christian that part, you know, but still even my, you know, views allow me to kinda intermingle as as best I can.

Justin:

To me that speaks to some inner confidence But you know, I could be reading wrong.

Mark:

Yeah, I I think in some ways it if anything, it it uh it speaks to my extraversion. I like being around people. And, you know, and that was another, you know, I think not that I was a party party person, but it was, you know, more than once there was the uh the the conversation it had, you know things started when I showed up. Mm-hmm. You know, that kind of thing. And and I’m not saying that in an arrogant manner, but I think it was just a way, you know, that I do like people. I, you know, interact with people and, you know, it just kinda Change the atmosphere at at points. But

Justin:

I guess that’s kind of what I mean too is when you know you have that kind of a effect on people.

Mark:

Yeah, I mean I would

Justin:

that can bring some inner sense of just an I’m okayeness at least. Yeah. If not, there’s an I ‘m pretty cooleness.

Mark:

Yeah, there’s a I wouldn’t say that I wouldn’t have said that I was thinking I was the life of the party.

Justin:

Gotcha.

Mark:

In that mindset. But you know Yeah, I just didn’t have that. It wasn’t an arrogance that I saw, and it was it always seemed weird, but I’m just referring back to what people would say.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know Yeah. The where and I I think more so high school was better than you know, like middle school uh junior high type stuff, you know. Yeah. Some of the some of the identity stuff was a little more solidified. And we I that was I I think I mentioned it in um and when we talked about um arms. What we what with gun control You know, I d we did the sportsman’s club.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, when we could actually bring guns to school and I did I did lead the sportsman’s club, you know. in that kind of thing. So yeah, I mean I had some leadership roles and, you know, outside of school even to like 4 H and so forth to where yeah, I think I had a sel a healthy self-esteem, self-confidence type thing. Not uh but there is in that continuum.

Justin:

Yeah, I was gonna say there is a continuum in your perspective.

Mark:

I would say I would be in the middle of the ground. I wouldn’t necessarily say Maybe middle to uh towards um I and I’d say middle to gregarious, uh, you know, that kind of thing Um, and I and I think there’s a point at the at one end where you can be arrogant. It’s all about me, and we have to do it my way. I wouldn’t see myself as that far, you know, if that’s a hundred percent I’d say I was about 75 maybe. And yet um i I it wasn’t something that I was definitely on the low end I didn’t have a problem, you know, talking with anybody. Mm-hmm. That kind of thing. Because I never saw, you know, I guess I never saw that kind of difference.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think when you’re at that hundred percent you can kind of have a maybe a hierarchical

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

look on things. I’m not one of them.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know what I’m saying? And I I I can’t say as if I ever saw a them so much It’s like, oh, that’s Lori, that’s Joe, you know, that kind of thing. It wasn’t that I had arrived and that other person hadn’t arrived.

Justin:

Yeah, so a big thing that it can impact our level of self esteem slash self confidence, um is comparison, right? Oh sure. the thought activity in your brain as as far as like comparison or how’s Betty compared to me or Bob or

Mark:

Yeah, I

Justin:

Joe or

Mark:

I can and it it was f it’s funny ’cause, you know, as For me, I can remember, you know, looking back, um, you know, how different people chose different paths.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, from from the kids that I went to elementary school with, you know, you take What, 20 kids?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You take 20 kids that you start elementary school with, and roughly, you know, fifteen of those are still gonna be in high school with you. And it’s funny I looking back, I can remember, you know, those that went with the party, it’s like, huh, that’s a change. That’s different, you know. But I remember when you know, he was, you know, Billy or she was Lori, you know, and and I it’s funny, just yeah, yeah. You think about you think about who people are and you see who they develop into And maybe it’s a part of it for me too. I just I was always intrigued by people. You know, because the I’ll I’ll say that the kid that kind of became the you know, the jock person. I can still remember when, you know, the girl in in grade school in elementary was faster than he was. Yeah. You know, that early stage when, you know, girls are j you know, guys haven’t come into their development and girls are just as fast. Yeah. That always that was always a funny thing for me looking back. It’s like, yeah, you think you’re something, but I can still remember when she was faster than you. You know, that kind of thing. It’s just yeah.

Justin:

Nice. Yeah.

Mark:

Nice. Those memories.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure. So come again, comparison wasn’t a huge uh issue for you in your life. Not a

Mark:

not a lot.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I because I think too that’s partly what maybe drives people into their categories is like well Well mu you know

Mark:

Well and I think I think categories, when we think about categories, you know w regardless, I think it’s finding people that are like me.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I’m I’m willing to recognize, you know, um there were there there probably were a lot of people like me in that middle group. But it’s like That that was just part of my my thing. It’s like I wasn’t that person. I wasn’t that person, so I was okay where I was.

Justin:

And you felt that kind of inner sense of identity at that point or you look back and reflect on that? Like when you were in high school, did you feel like Yeah, I’m I’m right square in the middle of all this and I’m happy with that. Or I

Mark:

I I don’t think I ever looked at the fact that I was right square in the middle. I definitely remember f reflecting on the fact that I wasn’t part of a group.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Was that a sad thing?

Mark:

Not so much.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, I I you know, it just And it and I think it

Justin:

because you didn’t feel kicked out of the groups.

Mark:

No, uh uh. And like you say, I that was my thing or part of my thinking, you know, it’s like I recognized I had friends in those groups.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, and so when I was in this class, I just was with those friends. And when I was in this class, I was with those friends, you know. And I I think I I mean, yeah, I probably had, well, I probably might have had like five core guy friends. You know, and then

Justin:

one for every group.

Mark:

Well, not quite. And I would say in some ways they were very similar to me. You know. Just yeah, looking back, you know, on those on those friends. Yeah, they were they were very similar. Some, you know, and but, you know, like you’re saying Maybe a little more, each one of them was kind of a little more towards a group, but not necessarily completely immersed. To where they were kind of a fringier You know, and that’s what kind of we kind of gravitated towards. I mean, yeah, because out of those five guys you know, two only two did I go to grade school with. Hm. Yeah. Yep. Just just looking back.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s it’s it’s very interesting. It kind of solidifies what I what what we all already knew is You’re sort of an enigma, Mark.

Mark:

That’s fair. That’s fair.

Justin:

Um yeah, I feel like, man, it’s hard to fight the tide of uh identity when you’re in that age.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because of the lack of self confidence, self-esteem, which we should define the two of those things. But um therefore you ‘re

Mark:

curious to see how you define those two.

Justin:

Sure, I will understand or I’ll try.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Uh but you know, like And so you n I feel like you the tide, right? That gravity, that that pull of like I need to identify somewhere, therefore you float you know, you you gravitate towards the thing that maybe you feel like you are the best most likely to fit into and

Mark:

yeah. The closest to me type stuff. Yeah. And

Justin:

again, you do that through comparison. Well, that person’s better at art than than I am even though I like art but I I can’t compete with them so maybe um but I can run faster than this person so maybe track or whatever you know or you know y I really like basketball or whatever it is you know.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

And yeah, again, I think the the tide is that comparison of like you’re always kinda doing the math. Yeah, the the r the calculations of where am I fitting and how where do I fit best and how do I find a place here. Yep. And I just I mean your story feels like it’s lacking in all those juicy details. But I feel like that’s kind of a pretty standard uh struggle for identity in in high school. What do you think?

Mark:

Yeah. No, and I I I was thinking about it as far as uh I think there was a part of me, I and I can recall just growing up, I was always more comfortable with older people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I I’m thinking about it from an identity standpoint, you know. By God’s grace, I had a lot of great mentors, you know, that were basically, you know, building into me, you know, that I was comfortable interacting with on a you know, daily if not weekly basis, you know, through you through activities and stuff like that. Just some really great role models. Yeah. You know, especially especially in the in a male dynamic. You know. Um some of those some of them has you know have even passed away you know in the meantime but I still some of them are still alive that kind of thing but yeah I I think that was that was influential for me And yeah. There’s yeah. Go ahead.

Justin:

Uh no, that I mean that sounds amazing to have, you know, multiple Mentoring male relationships or if you’re a woman and female, but like kind of that um it doesn’t seem like that’s super common.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Anymore. And I think about even like Well, even like John, your son, he’s a youth leader. Uh you know, he’s one of the leaders at youth and he influences he’s he’s able to have some influence with young boys and stuff. And you know, I’ve I’ve heard him talk about that and that’s that’s amazing and I think we that’s definitely a thing. But it’s like it seems like there’s still a separation culturally now that doesn’t quite an allow the same level of intimacy in terms of mentorship and all right, Johnny, that’s not like you. You shouldn’t be doing that, you know, like being able to speak to someone in a way that’s like You’re gonna y I know you’ll listen to me ’cause we have this

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, this type of relationship. It’s great. It feels like um Like that’s not really a welcome type of it like that it’s not conducive to that kind of relationship. Yeah, really. Um, and maybe part of that, you know, sadly is tied to um, you know, pedophilia.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Like the the just the the struggles of previous generations and we’ve put up boundaries and blocks and stuff to try and help with that and I think maybe that’s one of the side effects is that it’s cut off some potential opportunities for intimacy with mentor relationships that you know, is quote unquote inappropriate now.

Mark:

If we have an older guy hanging out with a younger guy, there might there’s probably an i a concern.

Justin:

Yeah, there’s a like, mm, what’s going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where so I don’t know, that’s uh I don’t know. They it definitely gives me a sense of like, man, what a loss.

Mark:

Yeah. You know. I agree. Yeah. I agree. And I think, and I and I will say too, I think, you know, um when we look when I look around now, you know, to the certain degree of uh male involvement. even in leadership roles in it in our church even, you know, to a degree. I think a lot of that has been adopted by, you know, women by God’s grace, who have stepped up into leadership roles because of the male vacuum to a certain degree. You know, I don’t um I just When I look back, I I think about how, you know, men tended to be more involved in church, you know. Um Office offices, you know, like like Sunday school leaders, you know, Sunday school teachers. It wasn’t just, you know, ladies, you know, teaching Sunday school or taking care of the babies, you know, there was guys in that role too. You know, that kind of thing. And I think that was that was beneficial, especially when I think about, you know who it was the the people that were influencing me at that point. It was, you know, my second grade Sunday school teacher, my junior high, senior high Sunday school teacher, that kind of thing, you know, for me. And then just other people. You know, definitely my own father had an influence in that too. But yeah, it was just yeah. What about for you? I’m uh uh where where would you have found yourself on that continuum?

Justin:

Um yeah, my my I feel like well I’ve probably talked about m my stuff uh a lot in previous episodes, but generally I would say lacking in self confidence but projecting self confidence. So

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um in middle school, elementary school, I was just a kid. I didn’t think about really um comparison And then about middle school I started really thinking about comparison and like oh that person’s better than me and everything, right? Like I And that’s the that’s the problem with comparison. You can always find someone better at any given moment and you’re comparing someone’s highlight rails to your worst moments, and that’s just you know, whatever. So I started doing that and that became I mean, I call I I would even say like an obsession maybe. I just the way I think about it where I was always just sizing myself up compared to others. I didn’t have a gauge

Mark:

mm

Justin:

based on some sort of like you were saying, a mental relationship to say to speak truth into that. So it’s just I was left to my own figuring it out. Like where do I land in in this world, you know? And the only way you figure that is well, well look at this person. Am I Do I measure up to that person? No, cause they do this. Do I measure up? Nope, cause they do that, right? And I, you know, being middle school to early high school, you don’t have the proper brains to say Yeah, but they also do that bad thing which you don’t do, right? Like you d you don’t ha see you y you just

Mark:

unable to create balance.

Justin:

Yes, exactly. So that that created a a vacuum of you know, an a or I should say a deficit of confidence to just like, yeah, I just don’t measure up. You know? So anytime I would find a vein where I felt like I uh was, you know, better than those in the room, whatever environment I was in. You know, I think I would really try and latch on to that or whatever. And and so that that would led me to different sports and But even those, you know, I I was never that great. I was just good. And I tried really hard to be great, but

Mark:

were you a jock?

Justin:

Um the here’s the thing. I went to a very small Christian school, so you

Mark:

D jock?

Justin:

Yeah. I mean th that’s the joke, but uh pretty much everyone contributed in every

Mark:

I guess.

Justin:

I shouldn’t say everyone, but a lot right a lot of us just kind of did all the things. So I I was in the plays.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I was in the sports. I played soccer. I played basketball. I did yep theater. I did um The singing groups.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

And Megan was in all of the Megan did volleyball, she did basketball, she did play, she did singing groups. Um so like

Mark:

your group depended on the day or the season.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. And there was certainly some small pockets of people that didn’t go to this thing or didn’t do that thing. But for the most part, a large m majority of us did. A lot of the things or all of the things. Yeah, it is neat. Absolutely is neat. Um, which I think helped I think if I would have been in a traditional high school environment just based on who I was and looking back, I think I probably would have Flailed. I think I would have either found the wrong crowd, whether it was the jocks or whatever, and really identified and tried to like climb the top of that.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

But I honestly don’t think I had enough confidence to do that so I think I would have just become depressed and been one of the

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

I don’t know. The outlier groups are you know, alone or I I honestly don’t know. I just don’t think I I really don’t feel like I would have done that well, but I I can’t I can’t say I can’t speak to that because I wasn’t in that environment.

Mark:

Just cu to to put that to scale, what was your graduating class? I mean how many people did you graduate with?

Justin:

I want to say five.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

One Two, three, four, five. Yes.

Mark:

You graduated with the same number of core friends that I had. That’s right. That’s right. Wow. That’s cool.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s neat. Yeah. Yep So you know that that’s that’s exactly very

Mark:

you guys you guys had to all work together to get a team

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

On soccer field or yeah.

Justin:

Soccer we actually joined with another Christian school.

Mark:

Oh, I see.

Justin:

So it was a combined effort. Well that’s a regular side.

Mark:

Yeah, now they’re built rebuilding here. You know, it’s like, oh we just lost our whole senior crew and half the team, you know. Yeah. Okay.

Justin:

And uh I started playing on the high school team in sixth grade. So that gives you an idea of like the pool.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

You know, you gotta start pulling in from sixth grade. And I actually played in a couple games in sixth grade. Like, you know, per a minute or whatever. But the point is, like You know, they needed a sub and

Mark:

there Justin. You had a heartbeat.

Justin:

Don’t get hurt. I remember I did something I can’t remember the story exact or exactly what happened, but uh in practice.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I ended up I think giving a bl bloody nose to the senior

Mark:

Oh wow. Wow.

Justin:

And I never lived it down. I mean it was kind of a funny thing, but you know, ’cause you

Mark:

Cause you were out there as a sixth grader just kind of flailing and moving your arms and it’s like, yeah, yeah. He went blowing by about the time you picked up your hand. Yeah, something like that. I could see it. I can see it. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Wow. But

Justin:

uh

Mark:

put him in his place.

Justin:

That’s right. That’s right. Um I feel like that put me on the radar with him though, because uh You know, he he would joke with me after that. Oh sure. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And that that kinda infused just a little bit. That was part of it too, is like you talked about older having a relationship with older I mean you were referring to adultery, but like Yeah. I would try and jockey for uh attention from older classmen.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Just to kind of that help me have some confidence. And typically I had some friends that were a little bit older, some uh often too as girls. uh girls a few grades higher than me. And just really, you know, enjoyed that. And that gave a sense of self confidence as well. But

Mark:

No, there’s something to be said. I mean John is probably more like you in that ’cause he was, you know, playing soccer at four.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to where when he came on the high school team, you know, he was playing up. You know, he started, you know, and I and I remember, you know, similar conversations how, you know Be it good and be it bad in some ways, you know, those older kids. It gave him a little his friendship with those older soccer players gave him a little more right of passage.

Justin:

A little more credit

Mark:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, to the point of, you know, you’re not just you’re not just a freshman at that point. So yeah, I can, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and I you know, again our school was so small that ye sixth graders it wasn’t that rare to have car you know th the older students kind of speaking to the younger ones ’cause there was that few people in the school and also it was a Christian school as a little bit of you should be kind to your younger class classmen kind of thing.

Mark:

There’s more ability to observe that interaction. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not 200 people you’re watching over.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Uh

Mark:

that’s that’s that’s neat.

Justin:

It was neat and we because it was so small and we were involved in so many things, like I have so many good memories and a lot of You know, a lot of good self-esteem boosters just by um so one of the things I really enjo uh going back to teasing apart self-esteem and self-confidence, I guess. Um I heard this good thing on another podcast um from a guy who is an AA and he basically was saying what um the things that bring you self-esteem are esteemable acts. Right? It’s this idea of doing something that’s esteemable. Okay. And um basically this idea of Things that bring value, right? Like to to others and to yourself and it versus um you know like a sports accomplishment maybe n isn’t necessarily like Uh getting MVP r trophy or something. That’s very individual.

Mark:

That’s still esteemable though, wouldn’t it? Yeah. From a affirmation. Or if you’re talking more about here.

Justin:

Esteemable accent. So his whole point was uh you know, he was talking about i in a AA in recovery, this idea of giving back and this is you regain a sense of who you are through these esteemable acts and you regain that sense of um moral fiber, you know. Okay. Right? And you regain some integrity, right? Some integrity through through those things. Um, all that to say, I was gonna say in in high school we did a a lot of things that were very team oriented, like you said. Everyone had to contribute and you all kind of work towards a goal, putting out that play. or, you know, playing in a championship or or um, you know, musical competitions. It was very often team oriented and which felt very esteemable in a sense of like We did this together and when you would accomplish something it felt really good together. Um however if you did you know, the other was true too uh which was our basketball team was kind of mediocre. Mm and

Mark:

did you have to share with the other school to get a basketball team together?

Justin:

We didn’t. We had enough to do basketball. Yeah.

Mark:

Cool.

Justin:

There was more interest in basketball, so I think that helped. But um Yeah, I mean we were pretty on paper, decent in in our league, right? Because we played in a league of s other small Christian schools. We were decent on paper, but like an actual output, I felt like we ca were underwhelming.

Mark:

Hm.

Justin:

And again, this is my memory. It could be it might have been better than that. I tend to have a very jaded memory of it. But I always felt like underwhelmed. Like I was underwhelming, I guess, uh in my own performance and and kind of all of us. It just felt like we were always and I don’t know, I think that might have something to do with the coach, right? And the coach basically indicating that. Like there wasn’t a lot of praise or a lot of hm good good jobs. There was a lot of you didn’t do the thing right, you know.

Mark:

So you would you if if you would have had a more encouraging coach Do you think that would have changed the way your that would have changed your self-esteem to that?

Justin:

I have no idea I honestly don’t just cure I don’t know how to peel that apart, if that makes sense.

Mark:

I hear I hear but it from your perspective it would have been possible or plausible. that you could have been, you could have viewn yourself as more influential had that Encouragement been there. The affirmation, a positive affirmation. Way to run a way to get up the court, Justin. Way to hustle.

Justin:

Nice shot. I feel like that’s kind of a no-brainer in the sense that we all know and agree that encouragement can help. push someone forward and discouragement can do the opposite. So for me, yeah, absolutely. If if I I feel like if the if I had a coach that was looking for the positives and trying to speak to that, that would have made a major impact in my life Um, the big thing though is like again, I wasn’t getting a lot of inf you know, like uh People speaking into my life to say to give me any kind of status indication. So I had to gather for myself, right? And so like uh one of the major places where I would hear very regularly how I was doing very verbally was basketball. Sure. And it was kind of a negative you know, thing and there was some positives in there. I’m not gonna say it was all negative, but it just I my especially my tr uh translation of the feedback I was getting wa was negative, if that makes sense. And it got that could have been um a misread as well based on my own thing. So but you know, and other things like um grades I did really well and you know, I was a good student. You know, mostly straight A’s kind of thing. And like that was empirical, so I was like, well, um at least I’m good at that by all measurements on paper. Like I’m one of the am the best one in class. You know what I mean? So like at least I have that.

Mark:

Yeah. You were best of the five.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And typically so that’s another thing. We would do um two grades together

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

So like 11th and 12th grade for instance we were done together. So it was more like 10, but I need a little more credit mark.

Mark:

No, no, it’s good.

Justin:

Uh but no, yeah, I mean, but even yeah Yeah, so grade wise and then I would get those n you know, m whatever, it doesn’t matter.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um so that that that thing was empirical and I could look at that and go, Well, at least I’m good at that and no no one can argue with that ’cause it’s right here on paper and you know it’s

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You know, so that was one area that wasn’t subjective, but um yeah.

Mark:

So if you had to boil a definition of self-esteem down to less than ten words. What w what would it be? Um Is that one?

Justin:

No, it doesn’t count. You better start counting. Oh

Mark:

you tell me when.

Justin:

A. Does that count?

Mark:

Yeah. Uh

Justin:

acceptance and respect for self.

Mark:

Oh No, I’m not I I’ve um th that was a good that was a good a good option. That was less intense. Oh that’s gonna be I think I was at five or six.

Justin:

Yeah. I got a few more. Should I add some more notes?

Mark:

Well you you you had ten. But I’m curious how you would describe that differently from self-confidence. Self-esteem.

Justin:

Ten words

Mark:

I’m not gonna put you down. Yeah, if you want it, I mean if you see it as a personal challenge, I’m good with that.

Justin:

It’s not as fun unless it’s a challenge from Mark.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah, that’s right. Gotta make a game of things, you know. So let’s do ten words for confidence. Uh

Justin:

an inert sense of ability and trust in self.

Mark:

Oh, I think you did it. Right at 10.

Justin:

You didn’t see him, he was pulling out his fingers. I did. I

Mark:

didn’t start at the very beginning, so I had to catch up. Um an inert.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So intrinsic sense of value.

Justin:

It in my perception of self-confidence is almost like this thing. That exists without reason. But I but I don’t think that’s true. But it it comes it doesn’t feel like it’s an earned thing Necessarily. So to me that’s arrogant and that tips over to pride and arrogance when it when it’s like, well I earned this and I’m I’m good, you know, versus like, I got this.

Mark:

So how are they the same and how are they different?

Justin:

Well, I think we’ve been using them interchangeably all morning, so they’re definitely very much tied together, and I just

Mark:

You think so?

Justin:

Well to me. To me. Yeah. Basically because they both seemed gone. You know?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Like I remember so self-confidence, uh for me.

Mark:

When you say gone, looking back.

Justin:

Not there. How’s that? Okay. Yeah. Um

Mark:

then.

Justin:

Then yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Um

Mark:

compared to now.

Justin:

Self-confidence, I think, about the free throw line in basketball.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

There was guys who said, I want to get fouled because I want to go to the free throw line because I want to do my part for the team. I’m going to sink those shots.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I was the opposite. Don’t follow me.

Mark:

You just sink the shot.

Justin:

That’s right. No, I just had no confidence that I was gonna make the shot. Even though we would do hundreds and hundreds of free throws and just really get our form down and I really practiced. And and I was in practice decent, you know. I would

Mark:

uh

Justin:

you know, my percentages were good, but in a game and I don’t even know what my stats were. I maybe I was fine stats wise. Sure. I felt like

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

I was always gonna let the team down. And I don’t even remember if I did. I know that I know I didn’t make some I needed to make, but that’s true of every player everywhere, right? But I honestly I don’t know where my how my p perception compares to reality. I c I couldn’t tell you.

Mark:

Yeah yeah.

Justin:

But I can tell you my perception was that I let us down more than I should have or like, you know, that so Uh so that’s where when I think of self confidence, I think of the free throw line. I think of that, yes, I’m we’re gonna do this. And if I don’t make it, it’s not like Well, of course you didn’t. You wouldn’t. It’s more like, oh man, that’s so unlike me. Let me let me do the second one. I’m gonna sink the second one. To me that self confidence. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Whereas self esteem I think more like More about walking through the halls and just not comparing and just thinking about you know more of like um I don’t know, just appreciation for self, like feeling confident, feeling good. Yeah, what’s funny I use the word confident, right?

Mark:

Yeah, it was. It was.

Justin:

That’s what I mean. It’s kind of interchangeable for me, but like this I like just a like for self

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

It’s like I I like myself. I’m okay with myself. And yeah, I’m not perfect. And yeah, I got flaws, but I’m feeling pretty okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah. I like I liked what you shared initially about esteem being more of a character and confidence kind of building out of that because I therefore can.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. My self-confidence. I think self-confidence puts a person out there based on a level of esteem.

Justin:

Yeah. Alright, I got two words for you.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

For each. Self-esteem is I am.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And self-confidence as I can.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Man.

Mark:

Yeah. So I am. Well, I’m going with I am, because of course that’s that’s that

Justin:

don’t tie it.

Mark:

I am gonna tie it. I’m gonna tie it.

Justin:

I am X. Uh

Mark:

I gotcha. But I I I th cause I think of God confidence with some with with these aspects as well You know, where does that confidence come from? Is it just alone in my ability? Therefore I am And I think, you know, that can be one end of the continuum that I am God and I don’t need anybody else and I don’t want anybody else. You know, yep. Or that other person or the other end can be, you know, I’m nothing. You know, and I need tremendous You know, that kind of thing. I just, yeah, to where but I’m hearing where you’re coming from in the sense of I am here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I am present.

Justin:

Yeah, when I think of a healthy individual, I mean I de I definitely think of uh like your story and just kind of how you describe like just a very it sounds very healthy and I don’t know Is that your perspective of your upper you know high school and environment?

Mark:

It’s always hard for me to hear myself as a healthy person, but like say

Justin:

a na uh a a good level of self-confidence and self-esteem. Like just enough. You know, I’m not saying uh there’s no limit or there ‘s it’s uh it’s a like there’s uh there’s no cap. Yeah just the more the better. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying like there’s a there’s a excuse me.

Mark:

That’s okay.

Justin:

Bump the mic. Yeah. Uh there’s a medium level where I think it is healthy. It’s just it’s a good Good, healthy place to be where you’re not doubting everything you’re doing or comparing yourself and feeling bad about yourself.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I feel like I can do that. And I feel pretty good about where I’m at today.

Mark:

And it’s interesting too. I I I was thinking about it in your context as you were sharing. Were you a uh were you a class official

Justin:

What does that even mean? Like a class president? Yeah, yeah, like a. We didn’t do that. Oh okay. Oh yes, I definitely would have been.

Mark:

Yes, yeah, I had no doubt. I mean with five people, why wouldn’t you be at least an officer? You know, if you think of it

Justin:

There’s four positions in five. Exactly.

Mark:

Come on now. And somebody doesn’t want to be one, so you know.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, no, he didn’t do it.

Mark:

I can remember it was funny because I did uh I did run for class president

Justin:

Okay. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I came in second.

Justin:

Oh.

Mark:

So like you say, I can remember that disappointment that went along with it, but you know, at the same time

Justin:

Why’d you let him beat you? Well, I was

Mark:

I was okay with it because I didn’t want to have to organize all the class reunions for the rest of my life either. You know, I i I remember I can remember thinking about it. It’s like there is a there is a uh you know a a pro to this not winning. And you know, and I I felt I can honestly say I felt uh you know because I wasn’t I didn’t come in last. You know, and I the people I have I I shouldn’t say, you know, I knew the people that counted the votes, so I even knew what that spread was. You know, as far as it’s like, yeah, I was cool. It was four count. It was four votes. Okay. So yeah, I I was I will oh I graduated with 184 people.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

So like you say, I mean, I don’t know whether everybody voted.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, and there there was probably four.

Justin:

How much campaigning did you do?

Mark:

None.

Justin:

So with no campaign. That’s pretty good.

Mark:

Yeah, but not it, not you know, it’s like once the names were out there, you know, that was pretty much all you Your I would say your lifestyle was more your campaign.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I and

Justin:

I guess that’s my point. Your lifestyle was conducive to getting within four points of class prison. Yeah. So

Mark:

And I would say the other four were a little more on the party end of things.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

People that I wouldn’t have necessarily you know, that it just was a a little edge. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah. No, that but that it was th I was thinking about it from that context of how, you know, things that are important and may not be important and how important God is in those things, you know, as far as seeing them up from a balanced perspective.

Justin:

Well so I I feel like Yeah. Uh the one we talked about, pride, was a really good one where we talked about you can’t separate you know, self-confidence, all those things from from g got. If you do, it’s confidence in yourself and what’s that worth right. So we talked about God confidence and So I don’t want to go this whole conversation without bringing that into it because I definitely feel like if I had the right relationship with God and I actually knew him for who he was versus who I was taught that he was, which was basically someone keeping score

Mark:

Ah, right.

Justin:

If I would have known that he loved me intrinsically and that he wasn’t keeping score and that he was for me, not against me, and then he wasn’t waiting for me to mess up and therefore punishment, you know I I think it would have drastically ch I know it would have drastically changed things and I would have all of this talk about confidence and where it came from, if I had the right view of God, I feel like it would have aligned properly And I think that’s really what we should all be shooting for, not like healthy relationships with mentors or whatever. That’s not the first thing. I feel like if you can get your relationship with God right, you can be okay in any environment. That’s what Paul talked about. You know what I mean? Of no matter what you’re going through, you have this, you know, relationship with God that um can carry you through it. I I didn’t have that that kind of friendship, relationship with him, that trust, that father, loving father. It was more of the strict and Father who wants the best for you and therefore will punish you and therefore will you know all the So it’s not like I thought he hated me or anything. It just didn’t feel like

Mark:

It was almost to the point he was noticing all the wrongs.

Justin:

Right. Keeping score along with everyone including myself. Like I just felt like that’s how in you know, again My parents did a lot of things right, but one thing they struggle with was praise and one thing they they struggle with was criticism and I’ve talked about how I’ve adopted some of those things and I try and work on that with my own kids. But so, you know, it’s kind of Inner critic was adopted from you know the theology and from my parents and you know um Yeah, so but but anyway, all all that to say, like thinking about uh you know, you getting second place in the class president situation, was that a disappointment for you? Did you feel less than because of that?

Mark:

I I would less than ‘s a little too strong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I was disappointed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet at the same time it was very momentary. It was just

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I mean I think Yeah, I I was trying to think. I just it there was it was funny because there was a number of things I miss I just missed Prom Court. I was an alternate for Prom Court. So like you say that was a just miss and I was okay. But yet I made homecoming. You know, as far as those different events that you you look at. So it’s it’s funny, you know. And I don’t even I can’t even remember who was uh who was voted uh homecoming. I’d have to look in a yearbook. But still, you know, it’s just it’s funny thinking about that ’cause it did seem like in that process I was typically, you know, just

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

Just off. And that and it but it I guess I still I yeah, it was disappointing in the moment, but it wasn’t like it made or break, you know. I just

Justin:

See that’s where this so that what you’re describing right there feels healthy to me. Like an adequate amount of disappointment. Like of course you want the thing, it doesn’t happen so you’re disappointed, but then you’re able to move on. I feel like there’s an intrinsic sense of l s you know, liking yourself that says, I’m okay with that because I’m still me and a intrinsic sense of I thought I would win. That’s a self confidence, but I didn’t. And it’s probably ’cause I don’t party all the time. You know, it’s like that confidence that says, you know, if I bet I could have won. You know. But not like Tipping over into, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. I didn’t uh I didn’t want to go after anybody when I was second alternate for prom court, you know, to get that that one spot. Right. You know, no, like you say. It was and I was

Justin:

what I mean, no campaigning instead.

Mark:

But yeah, that was that was uh yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I see where you’re coming from.

Justin:

And those things come I feel like Both. Uh-huh. I feel like self-esteem, here’s another difference maybe in my mind. Okay. I feel like self-esteem comes from past Um esteemable effort. I feel like self-confidence comes from past um accomplishment indoor um And or speaking into someone speaking into you know, speaking that into you. Um, because I think that can happen too, or you can gain a sense of self-confidence without having achieved But someone can say, but you absolutely can achieve that. All you have to do is try and use what God gave you, which is more than enough. And I feel like you those conversations can give you some self confidence. Or the accomplishment can. Like, well I I did it in the past, I bet I could sync this free throw again. You know what I mean? Kind of thing.

Mark:

And it’s funny as your as your as your explaining or talking about, you know, I think about a lot of the the kids that I work with because that’s what parents sometimes will, you know, address or, you know, I work with kids that have an anxiety of sorts, you know. And I it is a matter of um of you know seeking to build or create a level of self-esteem, you know, and creating that, yes, I can and therefore I’m gonna try, you know, that becomes the self-confidence and you know, and I have this ability to interact with people, you know, strange or new people don’t have to, you know, intimidate me because I’m able to realize, okay. Yeah, they’re good at some things, but I’m also good at other things. Yeah. You know, like you had shared early on, you know, that ability to see the wholeness of people I th I think helps that process because I think so often we do tend to, you know, see ourselves from only the position on the basketball court. you know, only from a from a a facet, kind of like as we talk about how we see it, you know. It’s so often we look at ourselves from a single facet and say, well, I’m not you know

Justin:

And that’s the unhealthy um inclination, right? And that that was very much what I struggled with. So in the the days you know, we would accomplish or something good would happen and be then I would feel on top of the world.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But you know that’s so short lived because there’s more failures in life than success is maybe I don’t know. Maybe it depends on how you view it, right? Like I would say one of those. That’s what you remember. Yeah. Well one of the things that I’ve grown in Just leaps and bounds. Alright. I I would say for the most part I’m healthy at this point. I guess for the most part. I still struggle with something. But like A lot of things that would be considered a loss, I don’t consider it that way anymore. I look at it through the lens of what did I learn and it’s only a failure if you don’t learn from it. You know, that’s like something that I’ve certainly adopted it. I still Again, struggle with some things, but it’s not to that degree. So like that perspective turns all you know, so many losses into wins. And so you can say I win more than I lose because even in your lose l losses you’re winning, right? Sure. That’s not the perspective I had in high school. Every everything that wasn’t a straight up victory was a loss. Right? So if I wasn’t at the top, I was at the bottom.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

And that it was very polarized in my view viewpoint of that. So like even when you were talking about losing getting second place, that disappointment, that would have been just a devastating loss to me if I you know what I mean? Like

Mark:

No, I hear ya.

Justin:

I wouldn’t have been able to be shake it off. It would have you know, and and I can say that. I know that’s true because um

Mark:

laughing at you by the way. I just

Justin:

Tell me your thoughts. But I was gonna say we lost uh basketball tournament. We were supposed you know, we we got second place.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Which, you know, that’s pretty good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I hated myself for a week.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

For that.

Mark:

That was in Wives, didn’t you share that? In Wives Team where you had the breakdown in the locker room.

Justin:

Yeah, I can’t remember I think it was that tournament. I think they were all it was all tied. Yeah, it was like our our home hosted tournament and you know I just I wanted to win it and we did not and yeah just devastated. So like that’s what I mean, like second place is still you know, the the there’s a one winner and then right after that is second place. That’s pretty good, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Same with like the like you were saying about the Uh class president. It’s like you’re all the way up here, minus one, and that person had maybe some things that

Mark:

Yep

Justin:

Anyway.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What were you laughing at?

Mark:

Oh no, I it was it was funny you were talking about, you know, winning and you know the the we had a joke, you know, our kids went to South, of course, you know, and so the joke was, you know If if losing builds character, you know. Our kids learned a lot of character.

Justin:

Explains why they have so much character. Is that what I understand?

Mark:

We just talked about that. You know, it’s like, yeah, you can you can you can learn a lot from losing. It’s like, yeah. And so that was that That’s sometimes a a little family joke there. It’s like, yeah, you sure can, but boy, you can get tired of it too.

Justin:

You can, yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, it was just that was what I was laughing at. I wasn’t laughing at you. They want you to think I was

Justin:

Yeah. But

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Uh earlier I was thinking about when uh the difference between self confidence and self-esteem. Again, another thing that came to my mind is m my two daughters. So I feel like Mia has so some self confidence. Uh and she’s able to get up on stage and sing and do that without any she has no anxiety about it. And she’ll step on any stage you want her to go and do whatever you need her to do, you know. And a lot of that’s just because she’s been doing that she w since she was little. Um and she’s been getting praise since she was little about it and like it’s just like this inner confidence that at this point she has to have to think about that confidence. It’s just there. I’ll get up on that stage and I’ll do it again, you know. Sure. And I think about it.

Mark:

I’m just going up singing my songs.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And she you know, she started in Treehouse and she would be up on that little stage singing or dancing and you know, like Um yeah, and it’s just it’s perfectly comfortable for her. She’s very confident. But there’s other things, she doesn’t have that same level of self self-confidence. Um And I think about Jewel who’s stage averse, like she doesn’t care about attention. We try and get her to um do different thing. Like we really wanted her to be part of the family band. And she’s just like, I don’t I don’t really need them. Is she do a drum? No. Okay. No. She doesn’t want to do drums. We really want her do drums.

Mark:

I bet.

Justin:

And she’s good at it. But she just Doesn’t see the need.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Because she likes who she is just fine without that thing. She doesn’t have this inner sense of I need to do X, Y, or Z It’s just she likes just doing what she does and being who she is and she has this inner sense again, that’s what I would kind of see in the self esteem category where I don’t need those things to feel okay about myself because I I’m just fine. And her she does a lot of art. She’s very artsy. And we definitely, you know, praise her a ton about it. But like She doesn’t need that to be seen by everyone. Like she just likes to do it, you know?

Mark:

Yeah. She enjoys it.

Justin:

Yeah. So I feel like both my two daughters represent Mia, I think, represents in like a a n supernatural level of self confidence in some s in some s areas and me Jewel even to me r t again based on my upbringing s represents a supernatural amount of self esteem. Uh but the I see them as two different you know I mean

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s cool.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Appreciate you sharing that

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting.

Mark:

No doubt. And how do if I may, how does Joseph fall into that?

Justin:

Um he’s definitely more self-confident.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um I’m trying to think about the self-esteem thing. I gotcha. I wouldn’t be surprised. Yeah. impress anyone or like achieve and yet um he’s really good in school. He’s you know Um and he yeah, he like does art too. He does these little comic books and they’re hilarious. He’s got a funny sense of humor. He’s kind of like right in the middle of those two, I feel like. It’s kinda interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s interesting in that birth order dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Oldest Middle and youngest, as we’ve you know discussed your kids.

Justin:

Yeah. And he’s a boy and they’re a girl, so that’s also interesting to see how things play out in his life versus

Mark:

So his humor’s completely different.

Justin:

Yeah. For sure. Um Yeah. Yeah. Good question.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

What about your kids? How do you feel like they fall in that continuum?

Mark:

I would dare say probably I would dare say John is probably more of a self-confidence, you know. Um Although uh I see I see uh Lizzie is changing, of course, you know, she’s been to college, you know, that kind of thing, and I think she has grown in both aspects. You know, uh relationship with God as, you know, definitely esteem and Um she was sharing well I was just actually speaking with her yesterday, Chris Fokerloyd last week, but it was funny because she was uh she was a l um put on a panel. You know how like you know as as as freshmen come in. She was on one of those panels. that she had been to as a freshman.

Justin:

Nice.

Mark:

So it was funny because she was um for for health sciences. So you have all these kids that are coming in. you know, to be doctors and, you know, all nurses and all that health science thing and it’s, you know. And she was telling me ’cause she could from her perspective, she was looking back And saying, okay, what would I w have wanted to know when I was sitting in those seats? And she said it was funny because she could hear, you know, kind of the elitist. you know, answers that some of her, you know, upperclassmen, you know, senior, you know, were given. It’s hard work. You gotta do this. You gotta get this done. You gotta get this done. And it’s like And, you know, Lizzie was basically, not that she was being an antagonist, you know, but it’s like, well, you’re gonna, it’s gonna work. You know, you may not be able to do this, this, and this, but it will work out and where you’ll do the things, you’ll get the things done that you need to get done, and you may have to, you know, forsake some other things. But it’s gonna work. And if you need to take a gap year to accomplish what you need to do, that’s okay too. And it was funny because she said, you know, there were so many. you know, young girls that just basically almost came up to her in tears saying, Oh my goodness, I appreciate you sharing what you shared. Because I’m feel I was feel the fact that you were feeling anxious and you recognized that, you know, this stuff worked out. You know, it wasn’t you controlling it all. It was by God’s grace it worked out and you know, and she was able to share that and she’s, you know, had all these younger freshmen basically saying, Can I get your number? ‘Cause, you know, if I have a question, can I call She said, sure, you know, it’s like, so it was just kind of that neat thing, you know, as far as I would call that a a combination of esteem and confidence that You know, it’s gonna work out. And I and I guess I would just see I think I think the military was definitely crucial in John ‘s development of both. But I think it, you know I you know

Justin:

See, I f I put the military service squarely in that esteemable s uh kind of side of things to where

Mark:

You did, but I would also say the confidence that John had grew. It’s like I you know we’ll routinely say he uh He he grew two inches after boot camp just because he stood straight. He stood straight. Yeah. And I think, you know, that was a part of it. to where and I think it is a a a confidence of sorts because it’s uh and I’ll hear it every now and then I I endured that You know, boot camp basically and the humiliation, the breaking down, I endured that. That’s that’s cake.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, everything, kind of that comparison thing. You know, if I can endure that, yeah, going to work, showing up on time, you know, that’s cake

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, get the hard stuff done. His you know, he’ll he’s a good one for that motto, you know, do the hard stuff first.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then the rest of the day is easy.

Justin:

Yeah, go downhill. Yeah.

Mark:

You know, so like you say, it’s kind of interesting to think about that. in a in a and I and that I see him more of course in that um Enneagram. He’s a eight challenger. You know, to where, you know, it’s like at that takes a level of confidence to be able to say, No. I don’t agree.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know I th you can do what you want to, but I’m saying right here, you know, that kind of thing. But I and I and I see the esteem in it. But yeah, it’s interesting consideration. And I think that’s what makes the two words, you know, kind of funny to discuss.

Justin:

It is, yeah, yeah. Because it is hard to peel them apart because I I often feel like or I feel like s a good self esteem will create a good self confidence.

Mark:

I would agree with you in that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m sorry, d I did I cut you off. You started to raise your other hand like you’d like to.

Justin:

Well, I was gonna say I don’t know if I feel the other’s sh always true. Like a good self-confidence will create a good self esteem. Because self-confidence might be based on others words and or your accomplishment if those things go away.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know what I mean? So if you’re y I feel like self confidence can create a In an unsteady self-esteem.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where a self-esteem can create a more steady self-confidence.

Mark:

Yeah. No, I hear where you’re coming from. If I recognize that I am valuable intrinsically.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, then that that goes a long way when the wheels fall off in one area. You know, like if I y go through a bankruptcy or, you know, or you know, my girlfriend breaks up with me or, you know, those kind of things, depending on, you know, age, of course, that’s where I was trying to go with. I don’t have current I I I have a girlfriend, but she’s also my wife. So I d yeah. Wanted to uh kinda walk through that. But yeah, those different life cycle stages. the if uh I’m confident based on that one facet, it can definitely, you know, hit my esteem if that facet goes away or changes or something like that. Yeah

Justin:

Yeah, so if you’re if you’re trying to build your self-confidence, start with self-esteem.

Mark:

I agree.

Justin:

And by starting with self-esteem, start doing s esteemable things. So you know A good example too is like serving, you know. No doubt. Go to a soup kitchen, serve there, you know. Go to serve some kids, you know, and whether it’s at church and youth group or treehouse and That’s the other thing too, like seeing the kids who serve.

Mark:

Hm. I

Justin:

I feel like there’s a a often a clear distinction. I don’t know if chicken or egg, right? Like if they came in with a self esteem and therefore served kids or they serve kids and it cr has created more self esteem, but I definitely feel like I see connection there a lot of times when when I see development of kids, um, and I see that they are serving. And serving, oh I I mean the true sense of the word serving, because I definitely feel like uh there are some roles that are called serving, but maybe are more you know, spotlightish.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

You know. I I again I think of Mia. I think Mia has m matured enough to where she sees um being on a stage as serving in a lot of ways because it is work and, you know, whatever and there there’s work to be done even to push yourself down so that you can put God in front of you, that kind of thing and I think she’s learning that and she’s maturing and all. But I definitely feel like calling getting on a stage serving for her most of her life was kind of a misnomer. You know what I mean? Where Jewel Jewel uh um goes into the nest and she serves the th you know, three and four year olds and to me that I feel like that’s there’s some self esteem there that’s built through that but also that she had going into it. Again, chicken and egg, I don’t know, but Um I again I feel like that contributes to kind of who they are or how they are and it’s just interesting. But anyway, back to the whole thing, like if you struggle with that, start doing some things to build that self-esteem to make you say I feel good about myself ’cause today I serve somebody or you know, I think that’s a good core.

Mark:

And I think serving other people takes the eyes off us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Which helps that self esteem too, ’cause it’s not like Yeah. It’s not like I’m the center of my focus.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think to be able to see people who maybe, you know, down on their luck, like you say a shoot soup kitchen or something like that. It helps me, you know, develop a little bit of gratitude.

Justin:

Some perspective.

Mark:

Perspective, yes. On the things that I have, the things that I’m able to do, the supports that have been in my life, you know, and I think that helps build in that self-esteem type thing to be able to say, yeah, by God’s grace I’m pretty fortunate and I’ve, you know, been fortunate to have people in my life. And I’m definitely not all of that, but I’m okay with who I am.

Justin:

Well, I think part of that is w of especially the soup kitchen type of idea, when you do that for real and you’re able to have real conversations with the people you’re serving you. very quickly recognize the difference between you and them is not some intrinsic goodness. Very li like you said the supports you had, right? So like I grew up in a good home and I if I were to lose my job today, I’d be in my parents’ house, you know, or whatever. Yeah. Where they didn’t have that. And you’re able to start seeing like, oh, okay.

Mark:

Yep. You know or or or just even at times just one circumstance.

Justin:

Right. Yeah.

Mark:

You know, one thing that was just a little bit different.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And it had the a long-term implication.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Otherwise, you know, kind of that that verse, you know, but by the grace of God, you know, that one thing I was spared. Mm-hmm And otherwise I’d be just like that person or you know, could have been. I think

Justin:

that’s a George Whitfield quote.

Mark:

Is it?

Justin:

Or

Mark:

Well thank you, George.

Justin:

Yeah, but for the grace of God there go I, he said when he passed someone on yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

On the street.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

But yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s what would we name in this one? Excuse me. Uh I’ll let you name this one. But either way, that’s how that’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.