Justin:

Well amble.

Mark:

Amble

Justin:

probably. You just won’t preamble.

Mark:

Fair enough. Ambling along.

Justin:

Fair enough.

Mark:

Good morning, sir.

Justin:

Good morning.

Mark:

How are you?

Justin:

I’m well. Happy to amble along with you this morning. Yeah.

Mark:

And I you.

Justin:

Good. I guess that means it’s good we’re doing this.

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt.

Justin:

I guess. I guess it’s okay if sometimes I don’t like doing it with you. But that’s never been the case yet.

Mark:

when we’ve really had a heated discussion or argument even in some ways between the two of us, which That’s okay.

Justin:

That’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. If that’s the show you want, I’m sorry. Exactly. Yeah. We’re a little too like-minded, but

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural Polarization through thoughtful conversations. But can you ever think of a time when you really had a heated discussion with somebody. Not not not necessarily a fiscal fight, but you know, a heated discussion that just really spun you up.

Justin:

Sure. Oh yeah.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

How many times does that happen with a family member?

Justin:

Mmm. Yeah. Then pr probably the ratio ‘s higher.

Mark:

Is it would you say the majority of times?

Justin:

I guess because I mean maybe it’s um some sort maybe it’s maybe equal, but the difference is the non-family is across all kinds of spectrums.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where family is one category that makes up half of all of those feelings. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I guess.

Mark:

Yeah. In other words, with people in general, you know, you’ve had as many arguments maybe, but the spectrum is broader. It’s re it’s it’s dispersed out of a number of people. But

Justin:

it’s work, it’s sports, it’s

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Fam well not. Yeah, and comp

Mark:

competition doesn’t necessarily count.

Justin:

Okay. Yeah.

Mark:

That kind of the you know.

Justin:

What about family uh game time?

Mark:

Because

Justin:

that’s some of the most competitive times I’ve experienced.

Mark:

No doubt. Yeah. Politics could probably play into that as far as you know heated discussions or more heated discussions, that kind of things. Yeah.

Justin:

What about you?

Mark:

What about me?

Justin:

I know.

Mark:

But um A heated discussion. I’ve I’ve I’ve probably had as many heated discussions in my own house.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

as I have really outside of the house.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Makes sense. I mean that’s still family. Yeah, you’re saying it’s probably

Mark:

to be honest with you, it’s probably more, you know, Chris and I over the years.

Justin:

Gotcha.

Mark:

You know, in that process of, you know, differing views.

Justin:

Yeah, I wasn’t counting Megan. I guess that That tips the scales quite a bit more, for sure. I mean that’s that’s half the fun of marriage.

Mark:

There you go. Every now and then.

Justin:

Every now and then.

Mark:

Yes. Conflict builds intimacy.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

So in that process though, I was thinking about that, you know, w in the we we we’ve kinda as a culture we’ve referred to it as the seasons. You know, we don’t necessarily say happy Thanksgiving or Merry Christmas as much, you know. We kinda But, you know, this this time

Justin:

the holidays.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, this time right between, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas and you know, we’re we’re kind of in that process of having maybe some family time at Thanksgiving and, you know, enjoying that. And yet, you know, we’re kind of looking forward to Christmas.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And, you know, likely different family time or prolonged family time. And just thinking about it in that context of uh being able to enjoy that and and thinking about anything that you’ve learned. through those conflicts or over time that become helpful in that process. And

Justin:

in and We we just released recently an episode about holidays, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That one was actually recorded last January. It was basically kind of a post holiday season reflection and then We said, you know, maybe we won’t release this right now since holidays are over and it feels a little bit, you know, I don’t know if everyone else is gonna enjoy talking about Christmas, you know, three weeks after four weeks after So we released that um, you know, a couple weeks ago. But so this is maybe sort of an extension of that or conversation that kind of extends from that. Um but just you may think that we just You know, record that. Nope, that was that was a January discussion, so we’re ready to have it again. Exactly.

Mark:

I think that’s where it comes. Yeah, that’s where it comes from is this this time of year.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And you know

Justin:

the most.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Wonderful.

Mark:

That’s that’s how the song goes.

Justin:

Time of the year.

Mark:

But then there’s that other song you guys sing, you know, that it’s like, you know, this is a tough season for some people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, because circumstances have changed over the process of the year.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Or relationships.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure. And you’re uh so back to your question. Um was conflicts and what have you learned through past conflicts and family situations. Um what about you?

Mark:

Are you gonna answer my question or are you just reflecting?

Justin:

Um

Mark:

I as I was as I was thinking about it and I and I think I

Justin:

like turning the tables once.

Mark:

That’s okay. I’m I I’m still willing. I’m good for it. Um but in that process I am thinking about life cycle stages.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Because granted, right now, you know Um, I’m thinking about it in the context that, you know, this is the first yeah, this is the first season where Chris and I, you know, as a couple have Uh n had to not had to. Um as as this is the first season that we’ve needed to take other families into consideration as our uh children are young adults and they st ha have their own relationships. And it’s like in the back of our mind there’s a there’s now this second guessing of this time, this date, you know, and does that work? You know, and is, you know, is is John’s friend’s family gonna be doing something, or Lizzie’s friend, you know, as we’re we’re we’re coordinating these schedules. So that’s and you know, and Granted, it’s you know

Justin:

It’s real fresh.

Mark:

It is real fresh. It’s it’s real fresh and then the fact that uh my mom, you know, passed away in the end of August and you know, and just how that factors in, you know, into that equation. It was, you know, because I I was thinking about it. We uh

Justin:

last Christmas, um What’s Ernie? No. What’s uh

Mark:

Yes Ernie Ernie Ernie. Chris’s father, Ernie, was was not here.

Justin:

Both Christmas is kind of fresh with uh one of your parents passing away. So kind of relearning those family because it that was Chris’s side and now it’s your side, so it’s kind of

Mark:

So what

Justin:

the same thing but different because it’s a different family unit. Yeah.

Mark:

And how we take, you know, Linda, Chris’s mom, and you know, my dad into consideration, you know, as still being you know, the the surviving partner and how that changes, you know, their viewpoints and, you know, and yeah. So yeah, that’s that’s kinda What

Justin:

yeah, ’cause everyone’s relearning it now, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like how does this work now?

Mark:

Yep

Justin:

And no one knows, I think.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right? So you kind of just work through it, try the old tradition, see what works. Is that

Mark:

Yeah. ‘Cause it was it was funny. I it um every now and then, of course, you know, is something will kind of catch you off guard, you know, when you think about it being different. But we got together with our small group on Monday night and uh they they read the Christmas story, you know, from Luke, that kind of thing. And, you know, um the person that read it kind of started tearing up a little bit. Actually Jeff, you know, the guy that’s been on the podcast before he started, you know, tearing up and he was sharing you know, that that was a family tradition for him. You know, and it’s like, I didn’t say anything, but you know, that was always a family that was, you know, we didn’t do anything. until there was like a there was like a story from the you know the Reader’s Digest oh that those books that the Readers Digest used to send out Christmas stories. We’d we’d do one of those, which mom would call a tearjerker. And then, you know, we’d we’d uh you know, go to uh, you know, Luke Two to be able to do the Christmas store. Yeah. And just him reading that, you know, definitely brought up those emotions from the, you know, past Christmases just in that in that moment. Yeah. So yeah, you think about it now, circumstances change. But yeah Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and for decades it was just the same thing, same thing, same thing. Like kind of almost don’t hear the words, kinda almost don’t Yeah. Think about it. Because I think about our um Megan’s side of the family would always do a nativity together with the kids, you know, and We have the same script we do every time. But yeah, it’s just kind of this thing you always do and yeah. The meaning isn’t that significant until something like this. And then it’s like Wow. Smash full of meaning, you know.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. Yeah. So it was, you know, unto us a child is born type thing, you know, and you you you know, and you think about the impact of that one, especially as, you know, we think about death and salvation and you know what that means and you know so it was just kinda neat and you know it’s it’s as it has also I’m thankful in some wa well, I’m thankful in a lot of ways, but um I’m thankful as I think about our kids. Um I I would dare say one of the one of the early conflicts of Christmas that I had with my dad was, you know, when he he addressed my mom and dad’s concerns about you know, equality around, you know, the holiday and how that was spent. And we we we got into a you know heated discussion. That’s well that’s you know

Justin:

Yeah that

Mark:

probably not too many people know about that.

Justin:

Yeah, like you say,

Mark:

you know, well we’ll be t we’ll be twenty-seven. We’ll be twenty-seven on the fourteenth.

Justin:

Yeah. Wow.

Mark:

So yeah, but you know, twenty-some years ago you know, we had this heated discussion and, you know, I can still r I can still remember how I respect the fact that they wanted to address it and I th and I was able to um reciprocate in such a way that said, okay, yeah. We spend it here, but this is also where we have our relationships, the people that grew up with our kids and you know and stuff like that, you know, and he was able to kind of accept that. in such a way. And I can I can honestly say I really appreciate how uh from that point on, granted, not that there weren’t some other feelings involved, but from that point on, I really got the sense that They were grateful for the time that we offered. It wasn’t that there was ever a concern after that that there wasn’t enough.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

They were really, you know, and and I think for me That’s helpful going forward because I realize the circumstances are gonna change. But, you know, if we think about it in this terminology that says, you know Well, we never get the the same amount or you more would down or you know, versus just being grateful for the time you have if you can come through for a meal, you know, or you know, you don’t have to stay overnight. You’re welcome to stay overnight. But, you know, I just have really valued that

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

dynamic, especially, you know, when mom, you know, prior to when mom was live, you know, it’s like, yeah, if you can catch us on the way up or you know, that’d be wonderful, you know. And so yeah, it was just being that that aspect of being thankful for the time has been a

Justin:

that’s something for you to start learning and adapting. Yeah, it’s interesting. There’s also obviously something to be said for that conflict that you and your dad you know, that conversation where uh you were able to transfer Some empathy together, right? Like he was able to start seeing it a little more from your perspective. Because we enter almost every conflict from a very centralized viewpoint, my viewpoint.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

And I think good conflict allows us to broaden that view and you were able to learn a little bit about, oh yeah. My parents they they need that time with us they care about that time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And he was able to kind of take from that mm Mark got his own family now. I remember what that was like. You know what I mean? And able to have a little more empathy for each other, which makes sense why the conflicts that conflict kind of went away. Right, is transference of viewpoints.

Mark:

Understanding was created in such a way that there was a there was a greater respect for each person.

Justin:

Yeah. Which just really enhances the importance of conflict.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Even with family members, even in that little window you have at a holiday, like you know, they’re if you gotta take care of some stuff, take care of some stuff and that’s uh but that’s hard, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

At uh at the at the holidays, you want it to be like the movies.

Mark:

Oh yeah, yeah. It’s rarely rarely like the movies. But yes.

Justin:

That’s what your goal is, that’s what your desire is. That’s you don’t want to be the one. you know, to turn it into a bad movie.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because by now they’ve actually made lots of good movies with lots of conflict the holidays. Uh

Mark:

referring to a

Justin:

hardness. No, no. No, there’s one called the Family Stone that Megan likes to watch a lot, and then there’s another one. Shoot, what’s it called? I can’t remember. Um, but there’s a couple like big family get together Christmas type movies that are f you know, fairly recent, ten years old -ish that have, you know, just have a lot of comedy and a lot of drama, right? And like Yeah. People not doing what they should or doing what they always do.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So yeah. And and and yeah, conflict is almost always a big there’s a big blow up, right? In in these movies and as a result That’s very similar to what we were just discussing with you and your dad. And in the in the end, there’s a transference, right, of of viewpoints and the ability to start seeing it a little bit differently and have a little bit more grace.

Mark:

No doubt. Yeah, and ’cause I can still I can still remember, you know, it was like I was at we were at my grandparents’ house and, you know, he asked me to step out into the back room. So I knew something I knew something was gonna happen, you know, but yeah, it was uh It was definitely uh understanding that was coming.

Justin:

He didn’t start taking his belt off.

Mark:

No, no, not at that point.

Justin:

Depending on how you answer.

Mark:

He was never a belt person. Yeah. We always had that. We always had a piece of hardwood on top the tr hardwood trim on top of the refrigerator. In my grandparents’ house, so yeah. No, the board of correction was on top of the uh

Justin:

the board of corrects Yeah, missed opportunity.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

If you have small children and you’re still open to the idea of corporal what do you call it? Corporal punishment? Is that what’s picking that? Yeah. Then uh consider naming it the uh Board of Correction.

Mark:

There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

All right, I’m gonna grab my slippers.

Mark:

So what so

Justin:

you keep talking?

Mark:

Oh you oh feet getting cold. Gotcha.

Justin:

Would you like your slippers?

Mark:

No, I’m good. I’m good. So yeah, in that as this as the seasons change, you’re you’re talking about it from that uh cooler weather coming As I’m as as we’re discussing this, what uh as I’m thinking about you, and I’m not trying to pin it on you, but in that process, I’m thinking about changes for you as far as Last year versus this year, what is what differences have you been able to notice? What awareness has been created, if I may say so?

Justin:

Um well I mean, we’re kind of in one of those uh what do you call those seasons where it’s just kind of all the same for year after year after year in in in the settings that

Mark:

‘s redundant?

Justin:

Uh in some senses. I mean my parents live in Kansas City and Megan’s parents live here and so obviously You know, the it’s kind of like what you were describing. Some years we go there, some some years they come here, sometimes some some years we just stay here, they stay there, that kind of thing. Some years we go to Minnesota. It’s been a while but we went to Minnesota.

Mark:

Your parents came here last year for quite a while. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and actually last year we had a good uh A good discussion, sort of a conflict type thing, sort of a like you were you and your dad. Um and I feel like that was, you know, very good, which is one of the reasons, you know, I was you know, sharing that I think conflict resolution is an important part of that time spent because I mean There’s not a lot of things you can do I mean there’s a lot of things you can do best in person and one of those things is conflict resolution.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so it sucks to have to kind of Like you like I already said, use some of that family time, use some of that you know, for stuff like that. But at the same time, mm there might be no better use of that time if you know what I mean If that if that’s necessary, if that’s a part of what has to happen.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

If

Mark:

if you’re able to reach resolution. I think that’s the difficult part.

Justin:

Maybe going home early. Exactly.

Mark:

When somebody storms out and says, No, we’re not getting together anymore, and then they never get together anymore, that’s sad, but yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. I mean I guess you can’t.

Mark:

But ideally, if you’re able to have that resolution and be and and very much like you’re saying, create greater self and others awareness, yeah, I think that’s uh, you know, because that’s, you know, you’re the r the the ruptures or the you know, the conflicts will come. Yeah. But if there’s resolution or repair to it, then yeah, and we both grow in that ability to see things from other people’s view. I was thinking about it, you know, too. Uh you’re at the point where um this will be a different Christmas for you from Megan’s family, um, in the aspect that you guys were all a little more together. Well Megan’s brother is in Minnesota, but uh now um her sister has moved out to so that that changes. You guys were all a little more centralized.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So so yeah, that’ll

Justin:

Yeah. I mean Kelly uh who moved away Kelly was on the podcast before too.

Mark:

Yeah she was.

Justin:

Uh yeah but anyway uh They live in Hang Hanging Rock State Park, which is four and a half hours away or whatever. So, I mean, you know, they can hop back and we can do Christmas on a different day if they can’t do it that day or whatever and Um, I think that those plans are already nailed down, I don’t know what they are. I just I just go when I go when they tell me to go. Um but

Mark:

There again, I think that’s another good point too. I think, you know, as we think about circumstances change, not necessarily having everything nailed to that twenty-fifth, twenty-fourth, yeah, you know.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah, because

Mark:

if Christmas has to happen in that window, you know, especially as, you know, you’re you’re developing your own family, you know, you want to have your own traditions, I think that can make it very difficult because it it adds a lot more pressure.

Justin:

Especially as the parents, right? To be this is when we always do it. This is when we have to do it. If you don’t do it now, it means you don’t love us.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Kind of thing. It’s like, well

Mark:

Easy for you to say. Justin’s getting choked up just thinking about it.

Justin:

Something like that. Um like you were saying. Uh at some point th those parents who are being that way got that day. Right? From whoever had it, you know, so it’s like And there’s a forgetting of that. But yeah, I think you’re right in the sense that those specific moments, those days, like the day, the the tradition is really good for that time of rearing your children up and that’s when you kind of claim that b from your parents for yourself for your family.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then you hand that baton off as You know, or that ideally, right?

Mark:

Ideally, yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think that’s that’s part of the part of the difficulty is I think, you know You know, we can look back and we uh I’m saying for me personally, we can look back and say, wow, we’ve had these great traditions and I don’t necessarily want those to change. And yeah, that’s one thing about life that we can count on is the fact that yes, change is gonna happen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, that ability to recognize that because I think if If we’re able to recognize change is gonna happen, change is happening, you know, then we can kind of avoid that resentment, if you will, of okay, you know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think it’s definitely become more prevalent. In other words, when we used we when we lived in New York State even, that was

Justin:

excuse me.

Mark:

That was easier because both of our parents were, you know , under forty five minutes away.

Justin:

Right. So you could even fit both in one twenty fifth if you had to, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it’s and it’s and it’s been fun to, you know i in some ways to be away uh experience the other side of the that coin, you know, as far as that ability to be local and have family members come into town, you know, and experience that. But then now it’s in some ways to respect and, you know, recognize what it’s like for those people who are out of town to come in and, you know, work into that. you know, family system that’s kind of established.

Justin:

Which is kind of what we talked about in the last episode is some of that. But yeah, you’re now starting to feel the the pinch on the other end.

Mark:

Yeah, then the

Justin:

even from our last conversation.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. To be able to recognize, okay, yeah, to get north and spend time, quality time and you know, and I I appreciate the fact too that, you know, this year uh with Chris’s family we’ll likely do, you know, Christmas or celebrate it, you know, in a in a different fashion than what was, you know, typically done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and I can I can respect how that change of tradition, you know, makes that longing different, you know, especially for, you know, Chris’s mom, Linda, that kind of thing, you know. in that in that season of of sorts. But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s so interesting too because uh traditions and repetition create unknowingly expectations.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? Where for twelve years, you know, we read Luke Yeah

Mark:

,

Justin:

right, or whatever. Or we did the nativity with the kids like twelve years in a row. So the thirteenth year, of course that’s what we’re doing.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Right. And then the reality kicks in one way or another because I mean it’s just it’s very interesting as we’re talking this out. I can see it in our own my own family system and I’m sure you can too, just like the seasonal shifts of with what you’re describing and Um definitely as I grew up, we always would uh go to my mom ‘s side of the family pretty regularly.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

it wasn’t always on the 25th , it was we just figured it out, right? And I remember those times and that was just always what we did and now I haven’t been to that side for a thing in I d you know, decades probably.

Mark:

Oh wow, sure.

Justin:

And at some point, you know, that shift happens. And it’s just, you know, you can see that. Um, but you can see how people who are you know, uh not just people, me, like a all of us, you get invested in those traditions and d don’t even realize How important they are to you until they go away, kind of like what we were just describing.

Mark:

And I think too, it makes it more difficult. I mean, you you think about it in your lifetime M you know, from a from an aspect of where did were your parents when your parents met Okay, did they basically live in the same general area? Did they meet in that same

Justin:

gap?

Mark:

So basically their parents Your grandparents were pretty localized to one another. Same same for me.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, and I think, you know, as our culture has become more mobile You know, I think that that makes it a little more difficult because, you know, now we have people who are you know, coming together from places further away.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and so I can respect, you know, my parents, you know, especially my you know, our parents of that generation, how they met in a localized area.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s true.

Mark:

You know, and so that tradition. Yeah, that tradition was from their family. Yeah. You know, their parents, you know, my grandparents, you know, had had this, you know, process of tradition.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and so I would dare say in your lifetime You know, that that has changed, you know, because I think about you folks moving away, you know, and uh and Megan’s parents moving away, your parents are still pretty well where they were, correct?

Justin:

No, my parents were in Minnesota. Now they’re in Kansas City. My sister moved down here with us when we moved, then she moved back to Minnesota the short And then a few years later my parents moved away from my sister to Kansas City. Right? So yeah, definitely a lot of that that that’s that’s new.

Mark:

Yes. And

Justin:

like you said, same with my both sides of my families. I mean it was generationally they were in the same place doing the same things.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s yeah it’s

Mark:

so I can respect

Justin:

these

Mark:

how that changes. And you know, I this I’m not saying it’s all all bad either Yeah, or any bad. I’m just saying it’s it’s different, which can definitely seem difficult.

Justin:

Can seem bad if you’re yes. Again, if those expectations are set and you haven’t really examined them. You’re gonna probably look for reasons why it’s bad. Like what what’s wrong with this? Something’s not right. I know what it is, it’s this, that, or the other, they’re not doing this right or whatever. when maybe it’s worth examining. Yeah. Maybe it just really can’t be what it used to be and I have to accept that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I have these expectations that I can’t can’t be met.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know

Mark:

And I think it’s important, you know, as I as I work with, you know, couples, it’s I can respect how easy it is in that process of change, you know, to blame, you know, the new daughter in law or the new son in law Because it wasn’t until they came along

Justin:

They are the harbinger. I mean you’re right. They are the catalyst. They are the reason things have are changing. So it’s it’s easy to look at them and go, it’s your fault.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And then harbor resentment Yeah.

Mark:

We had all of our traditions in line until you know this person came along.

Justin:

And r wrenched them out of our hands.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So it’s a interesting thing to think about in that

Justin:

So on your side of the equation, right, as you’re getting close to the you know that happening.

Mark:

Close to what am I getting close to? No.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s just that’s a sobering reality to to to be looking at for you, which I know you are you are already, yeah, right. In the sense of this isn’t about that person. This is about th these seasons. I mean that’s why we’re having this conversation. It’s just very forefront for you right now, I think as part of it, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah, that’s that’s the challenge if you’re in that side of the equation as as the parent with You know. I mean even with uh Mia, right? She has a friend who’s a boy. She’s not a boyfriend yet. Uh you know, I don’t just I just I’m guessing she’s gonna want to do something with them around Christmas, of course. And that’s gonna be new for me, new for us, you know. We’ve never had that. Um I know Megan, like she wanted to have Christmas Day be our family and that’s kind of our tr I mean, again, it’s very similar to what we were just discussing about. That’s kind of our day.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But at some point, you know, we gotta start thinking about loosening up the reins on that if necessary

Mark:

and

Justin:

Yeah. So it’s it’s even for me it’s starting to look

Mark:

like maybe

Justin:

that’s different.

Mark:

Yeah, and that’s you know just the difference between last year and this year.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah, every year’s different except Not all

Mark:

years are different. Well, and I think I think there’s many differences and yet there’s many similarities to where we can actually think about, you know, it’s like, yeah. Some some years are different when you think about okay, we’re gonna alternate or we’re gonna go here or you know, but I think the for me, for us, I think in our family, I think the the most beneficial part about that has been the ability to communicate it about it ahead of time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because then people then you’re kind of Recreating that expectation, or at least everybody knows what to expect a little more ahead, and it gives us time to to wrap our mind around it. And I’m not saying every family has to do it that way

Justin:

No, I think you’re you and your family, the two sides. Seems like you guys are good about thinking ahead, planning ahead. It’s ’cause I’m always I’m always hearing about, you know, around this time of year, this Thanksgiving time, kind of the plans you have for Christmas. Like you’re already processing it, which is great. Uh not all families are like not.

Mark:

I respect that too. Yeah. It’s just been

Justin:

But it’s it’s a good thing. So if you can you should attempt that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Just to be able to moderate those expectations I think is a helpful thing.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s good.

Mark:

Because I think that’s where some of that hurt from the holidays comes from, you know. Yeah.

Justin:

Assumptions.

Mark:

Assumptions. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Do you count do you care to share? That’s right.

Justin:

No, I was also thinking too like um one of the challenges of kind of the cultural moving away type phenomena, right? Where we don’t quite have as much centralization anymore. Like especially as you know It’s just shifting a little bit as that happens is maybe the inverse. I think you and I discussed a lot about traditions and uh having them and losing them and But I think for some, maybe they haven’t quite ever established a good set of traditions. I think that’s worth the effort, despite what we just all talked about, like there is so much value and beauty and tradition, um, that I think it’s still important to to invest in that and I think about like our fa ’cause again our family Again, we moved to North Carolina. You know, my sister moved down here with us and she moved back and then her parents you know, moved to Kansas City.

Mark:

Did your parents move away from Holly for a reason? No, I’m just kidding. Not not a Christmas thing, I don’t know. No.

Justin:

I hope I hope Holly listens to this. Uh no, um no, I think Holly kicked him in Kennedy.

Mark:

We’re gonna start a family conflict right here, right now.

Justin:

Let’s start one. It’s a tradition.

Mark:

It’s a tradition. It’s one of the traditions Justin looks forward to. What can I stir up? Justin the potster. Sorry, didn’t mean to interrupt. But yes, establishing good traditions for families if we haven’t had them before.

Justin:

Well I what I was saying is like and then Megan’s we moved away from Megan’s parents, then they moved down here a few years later. So shift things have shifted quite a few a lot over the years and I think there was a period where we really didn’t have our own traditions. We kind of just, what’s gonna work this year? Let’s mi let’s do that. Let’s figure it out and go do the thing, you know.

Mark:

Try

Justin:

and f fold into others traditions. And then as we had kids and started to we started to recognize, hmm, like we want something for them. You know, and so we started to establish a few key things that we always do. Um And I think I I guess I would just say after talking about the the the the issues with traditions, also mentioning how important it is to build those traditions to have those memory m uh milestones for your kids and you know when when they read Luke 2 when they’re thirty or fifty years old, right? They get teared up because it’s that we don’t quite do it the same anymore.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I just think that’s really important. And again, uh a big part of that for us is, you know, like the nativ nativity and the things we do on Megan’s side of the family. But also like um like this whole idea that the twenty fifth we have this, you know, kind of chill Sunday. I mean kind of the quintessential Sunday mor excuse me, Christmas morning. You know, chill pajamas. You know, breakfast open, you know, presents.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And just enjoy our time together.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Kind of you know, that’s kind of been our desire and goal is to maintain that tradition. Although when we travel to go see uh family members, you know, obviously that’s different. Um

Mark:

I was thinking about it uh as you were sharing, you know, developing new because I I think uh do you what do you c what do you call your Thanksgiving Fall festivities?

Justin:

Falestivities, yeah.

Mark:

Faltivities, yeah That’s uh

Justin:

That’s also a Kelly and Jackson.

Mark:

But that’s a new thing. A newer thing.

Justin:

New as in uh there so it’s a Yearly thing and we have a trophy.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

As you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s spray painted gold. It’s a block of two. It’s a two by four piece of wood. Spray paint and gold with the pinwheels stuck in the top and then there’s a little notch cutout and on the notch stands glued uh a troll. With orange hair. I think a trolls are uh a cousin of a gnome.

Mark:

Okay, either way.

Justin:

And uh on the bottom is written the names of past winners in Sharpie, right? So it’s a very, very nice looking trophy.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And uh it’s got about six, seven names on it now.

Mark:

And the winner gets to put it on their mantle.

Justin:

two also has to display it prominently for the year.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

That’s one of the conditions of winning.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And they are also responsible for naming the next winner for the next year. So it’s a good good tradition. And

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Uh the uh criteria for winning is not doing the best at the falstivities. It’s just having good falstivity cheer.

Mark:

I hear

Justin:

you know just kind of good attitude.

Mark:

You give a sportsmanship award.

Justin:

Yeah, essentially.

Mark:

Yeah. I remember we were there last year and actually Linda was able to join us for that. So

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And that was one uh speaking of creating traditions. And that was

Mark:

started in the last six years.

Justin:

Six, seven years, yeah. So I mean by now it’s pretty established and the kids who were two when that started. I mean this is their li like this is this is their tradition.

Mark:

They’re coming into their competition ears.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. They’re like, I’m gonna win it.

Mark:

They’re able to throw the log a lot further than they used to. Yeah.

Justin:

Although there are some very young names on that. uh trophy that had that trophy ’cause you know, yeah you don’t have to win the log toss to exactly the trophy.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Uh well yeah that’s a that’s a wonderful tradition. And again, speaking of creating traditions, that was a Kellyan Jackson Jackson. Jackson Action. Jackson Action. He wasn’t able to be there this year, which is sad because you know he works on holidays now as a park ranger.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But we uh somewhat I ‘m assuming Kelly printed a picture of his face, life-size picture of his face, and taped it to the tree we usually throw the log to. And you know, that was that was the joke. So we all took pictures next to the tree with his face and nice. So

Mark:

yeah, you would there

Justin:

in spirit and in paper.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think

Mark:

and I think that’s a a good I mean in some ways that’s a good hallmark, if you will, of a healthy tradition

Justin:

Hmm. Adaptability.

Mark:

The adaptability, yeah. The ability to recognize, yes, you know, as as you know, kids move and do their own family thing, you know, there is there is something to be said for, okay, this is this is when it’s gonna be.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And if you can make it great, and if you can’t, that’s okay too. It’s not that we love you any less, but we also understand that, you know, circumstances change. And, you know, and Uh Jackson isn’t gonna be a a rookie park ranger, you know, the rest of his life.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but at this point, you know, he’s he’s low man on the totem pole of sorts, you know. And so therefore he gets that shift.

Justin:

Except on Thanksgiving Day, he’s the high man on the totem pole. He is in charge.

Mark:

He is the man. He is the man on the totem pole. And Christmas too, is it not? Or does it every

Justin:

Yeah, I think so.

Mark:

Yeah, I I think we talked with Kelly.

Justin:

I know I should know. I don’t know.

Mark:

I think he has to wear Christmas as well.

Justin:

Yeah. I think I think you’re right, because I think we’re we’re trying to figure out when to do the Yeah. The Megan side Christmas. So

Mark:

And that’s not to say there again that that day has you know, your festivity has to be nailed to that day.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But at the same time also being able to recognize, okay Yeah, we’re not gonna necessarily be able to get everybody together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that doesn’t mean that we love them any less or yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And The adaptability thing. I think what’s f figuring out what’s important about the tradition tradition and trying to maintain that even if you have to carry it into your n the next generation or you know, like You don’t have to do it exactly the same way we get sometimes we get really, really married to the way it it was exactly and and can get be a little rigid, but What was important about that tradition and can you extract that into your own family system? And or like you said, if it’s not Same Jackson can’t be there as the founder, co-founder of False Divities. What do we do? Well we pa tape up his face to a tree, you know, and I think adapting uh what what’s important, you know,

Mark:

like

Justin:

and being able to to roll forward, uh, I think is important too.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um which requires a little reflection. Like what does these what do these traditions mean to me? Why do I care about them? Why do I care so much about exactly where that tree is positioned or what seasonings on the turkey. Like why is that so important to me that I get angry when they do it different? And can I extract what’s important out of that into something that actually matters versus like doesn’t matter where the tree is or doesn’t matter what seasoning is used. Right? Like these little things that maybe we can get hung up on because that’s not how grandpa did it, you know?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

No, it makes perfect sense. Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah. That’s why this I mean this season is So jolly, right? So festive, so happy. And yet, you know, I think the reality is it’s it’s not as much as we paint it. I think it’s the challenging time of the year, and I think all these things we discussed is part of it Um, and yeah, families changing, moving on, which is the natural course of life. I mean, that’s you know, your kids are in your house eighteen years, maybe, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so maybe within that window there’s some uniformity and then things start shifting, right?

Mark:

Well, I think you bring up a good point there too, because I think, you know, so often we can we can think about that influence and relationship in a m as a matter of, you know, 18, 20 years if we’re lucky.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. And you know, the whole I remember, you know, generations, the whole time matters, you know, the the the marbles in the jar type thing. And you know, you only have so many marbles

Justin:

left.

Mark:

And the older I get, the less I uh the less anxious I get about that time. you know, as far as that influence, and granted, you know, yes, I have less influence. I’m not, you know, in but yet I respect the fact that Yeah, there’s still that opportunity of influence, you know. And I think I thought about it, I I just happened to think about it the other day. It was like, you know It’s it’s n John ‘s John ‘s uh you know got his own business doing his own thing, you know, and proud of him couldn’t, you know, that whole process. But it was just interesting because There was a moment where something didn’t go quite the way he had anticipated. So, you know, he you know, he called me up and said, Hey, what’s your thoughts on this?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, he wasn’t panicked or anything, you know. It’s like, you know, I’m just thinking and it’s like That’s that’s you know that’s outside of that 18-year influence or 18-year-old window, yeah, where you just basically have the ability to still call up your you know, hopefully call up your parent and and and say, uh my dad and I we were talking about the other day. It’s like, oh shucks. You know, mom ‘s not here because there was somebody that we were talking about at a having to be at a funeral It’s like, well, is that their daughter? And it’s like, Mom would have known. Mom would have known. You know, it’s like dad and I were both saying, Ah, dad was saying it, I don’t think that’s their daughter. And I was thinking, ah, I think that was their daughter. And it’s like, you know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Mom would have been there to but you know

Justin:

solved it.

Mark:

She would have solved it, right? But you know, so that that has changed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I think about it, you know, that the but still my dad and I had the conversation and You know, and John and I still have the conversations as far as that goes. And I think that’s the we don’t necessarily that influence doesn’t necessarily just go away.

Justin:

Just cut off if it does it. Arguably maybe something wasn’t done correctly.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think, you know, don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to being intentional with our family time while we have that influence. And I think, you know, parents are the greatest influence and we need to be mindful of how we, you know, steward that time. But yet, you know, I don’t think it’s a matter of, you know. the whole urgency of I only have this much time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then suddenly, you know, my child’s gonna dissipate, you know, when they turn 18, type stuff. Granted. Their their lives, they they develop their own lives, they do their own thing, but yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, you might be singing a different tune in two years or whatever. We’ll revisit. Well that’s one of the things I appreciate about y you know, you being about ten years ahead and or whatever in life, your kids, all that kind of stuff, is I get to kinda see How thing you know, I’ll see a little bit into my future, right? In some senses. Obviously, your family’s different.

Mark:

Life cycle stages.

Justin:

It’s helpful to kind of see some of these things and even what you’re saying, like Oh, the minute they, you know, graduate high school or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s not a a a turn off the flow of co conversation. And I think Um, I think one thing that I you know, I’ve I’m taking away from that, but also I think generally was good advice is like Parent now for that future. Like if you’re just a jerk right now or you’re, you know, super strict and you know, j I don’t know, just Whatever version of bad parenting, if you do that now, your chances of having that ongoing open conversation relationship the rest of your life diminish, right? There might be a point where they they’re Essentially good riddance, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Where you know I don’t mind. Or

Mark:

or the other end would be needy.

Justin:

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, just looking at

Mark:

continuum, you can have both.

Justin:

Yeah, where you’re like, Man, I sure wish they’d, you know, move away and go to college and do something.

Mark:

And then the other side’s like you know, you can’t go away. You know, it’s it’s a dangerous world out there, you know, you gotta stay here. And it’s like

Justin:

So all of those versions are poor, unhealthy relationships uh versions that I would argue for like parent now for that future.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh where you have an a good relationship through the course of your life. And I’ve also um you know I you know, as to the influence, I’m still seeing you influenced by your mom, right? Like we’re talking about

Mark:

like

Justin:

She’s gone. She’s passed on and yet her influence continues on in your life. And you know, I’ll see that the rest of your life. I know it. Like I just and even in the course of her death and all of that process of going to the funeral and all those things, like Jess, I feel like there was like this boost of influence in your life from her life through that whole period.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And even your dad as well. Like as as you say came to appreciate and recognize a lot of those s things in your family and sure. Um I think there’s something to be said for that too. Like live s in such a way to where when you pass away you’re still influencing your your child, you know. I think there’s something to be said for that. And then the last thing I I was thinking about as you were talking is you know, John calling you up asking for business advice or whatever. And at the same time I

Mark:

wasn’t business advice. That’s his mom’s job. No. But it was, you know, just a technical thing. Yeah. Uh

Justin:

technical advice. Excuse me. Yeah. Pardon me. I got that wrong.

Mark:

Okay. I gotta I gotta clarify because I’m not the business end. I’ll be the first to admit it.

Justin:

All right. Good good to know. I won’t go to you for business advice.

Mark:

Yeah. If you need business, talk with Chris, talk with John. But you know, technical stuff I can maybe help.

Justin:

Yeah But yeah, good. I’ve asked you for technical times, so I understand that. Um but I’ve seen the the table flip a little bit Where you called John up, you know, like the other day we were looking at this heater thing I got for my garage, and you’re like, hmm, let me call John up because you know John ‘s got expertise when it comes. He is an expert. He is literally an electrician. So you know, e that’s the influence can start to flow both ways. And there can be a lot of things. Yes, exactly. And that’s a um maybe an opportunity that can be missed or or maybe us be too prideful to recognize like I can start experiencing them influencing me once you know like we can start shifting the tables a little bit. And

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

That’s also a really cool benefit and really cool uh opportunity in that transition.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And again, I’m watching you, I’m learning, I’m going, oh interesting. You know, at some point I might be asking Jules, you know, like what do you think about this thing? And I’m like, that’s I really like that idea. And I like you know Again, shifting my parenting right now to think about that and to accommodate for that

Mark:

and

Justin:

you know, sharing that, spreading that on to the listener, hopefully. Like There’s an opportunity there in the future where you’re not the sole expert in the relationship. And you know, they have an opportunity to influence you and even as they influence you you broaden your ability to influence them as you listen, as you’re not too prideful to take in what they have to offer as you’re able to exchange how I see it conversations where they can share how they see it and you can listen

Mark:

sure

Justin:

and share how you see it and kinda have a re respectful conversation, you increase your ability to influence them even more as you listen, as you take in what they’re learning, growing, seeing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And of course, you know, there’s gonna be a lot of things they learn the the hard way and their perspective is gonna be immature and you can you could kinda like, oh you’re just dumb or immature, you haven’t learned yet, or you could just listen and say, that’s interesting Interesting. Yeah. I remember I remember that too. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s a tough one, you know? That kind of thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I I’m learning that a little bit too, even with Mia and like some of our social struggles, you know, and just going I could It sometimes, you know, it’s a challenge not to just go, well, stop doing that thing and just go, you know, that is tough. That is tough. I remember that. That was tough and I’ve I’ve had to use that sentence a lot, you know. It just in the sense of having empathy and not trying to swoop in and say, well, it’s the answer’s this simple. Because it’s really not. I mean it feels like it is from my perspective, because but it’s not, you know?

Mark:

Yep. And I think it’s even that, you know, as as you think about it not being that simple, you know, I think as, you know, w you know, the people that have lost loved ones in the process of the year. You know, that’s not necessarily or you know, in recent years and years past, and you know, it’s not that simple as far as, you know, being able to it because I You were you were talking about um my mom and the influence and that kind of thing. And I the there’s this idea, if you will, that you know, there’s actually two deaths when you think of a person’s physical death. And then there’s the time when there there comes a time when their name is no longer mentioned.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, and I think that’s when, you know, that influence. And so, yes, people have that influence you know, for years after, you know, they have, you know, passed on or passed away, that kind of thing. It’s it’s interesting. It’s Well that reminds me of that country western song, you know, I hear voices all the time. It’s about, you know, this kid growing up and he hears his grandfather say or he hears his father say these things.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I, you know, it’s it’s a it’s a pun or you know play on words based on you know mental health but it’s still it’s reality

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

in that sense of the things that we hear or yeah the when we look back how many of those traditions or phrases or yeah

Justin:

come

Mark:

to mind.

Justin:

We’re so self centered, right? I mean just typically as humans, I’m not saying you or me or you know what I’m just saying generally we have this outward view, like I’m the central center of the universe, right?

Mark:

I hear you

Justin:

And so this concept that people will forget my name is very offensive.

Mark:

Ah, here yeah.

Justin:

And yet, no, it’s reality that’s once you go in the ground, you have a limited time.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So again kind of rethinking beginning with the end of mine and and well how can I parent now to where that’s not such a big deal is is really about I think you know, who you are becoming who they are. Like the essence of what you’ve learned and grown and the things that your principles and all that, being able to distill them in such a way that that is who my kids become Not so much that they give me the credit or that my name is mentioned. Although hopefully they hear voices in their head too and it’s me saying these good, wise things, right? Not not the mean, you know, critical things which are

Mark:

those may be there too. Hopefully the balance is

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. But I hope you know they would have the same Go you know, desires the same learning. You know, it’s kind of some of the stuff we talked about last week, even which may or may not be released, but this idea that

Mark:

it’s on the order of releasing, but yes. Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah What do you think?

Mark:

No, that’s uh that’s good stuff. And you know, I appreciate uh yeah, I appreciate those who I have learned from and I’m happy to be able to uh point out areas as where I’ve failed and hopefully you know you’re able to see I can hopefully point out areas that I would do differently and hopefully you’re able to see areas that you would say, no, I may want to do it like that. And whether I’m aware of that or not, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s uh I think there’s something to be said for, you know, somebody if you know, somebody above and somebody below. Yeah. You know, somebody that’s yeah, you know investing in you and somebody that you’re also investing in. And I think, you know, I think in a lot of cases that is God’s design for family. you know, is that we have grandparents and parents and, you know, and then it will eventually become, you know, parents and grandparents and that that above and below is still kind of You know, part of that discipleship model, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah, also s the sea it’s a seasonal model. It’s very you know, the follows after seasons and

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um but yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh I think this is very this is a great conversation a great hopefully a great episode for you as you head into the holidays and maybe cut it off at the past some of those expectations and maybe maybe readjust a little bit start bringing in into the holidays some of the begin with the end in mind concepts of sure, you know, what do I want my kids to appreciate in twenty years versus you know, what do I want right now and what do they want right now versus what are they gonna appreciate in twenty years.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? ‘Cause they’re not always the same. And sometimes those traditions aren’t what the kids want right now. Right? They want to play in their Game Boy or wow, I dated myself. The uh switch Nintendo Switch when you’re saying no it’s time to do the nativity or read Luke 2 or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And remember what’s important 20 years is not that they had Nintendo Switch time.

Mark:

It won’t be the present.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah, I hear ya

Justin:

So just something to yeah, some some concepts, some ideas to bring into your

Mark:

Yeah. Just some food for thoughts.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. For me too. Yeah.

Mark:

So depending on uh depending on when this is released, uh on behalf of how we see it, we hope you and your families, you Justin as well and your family have a have a wonderful now Christmas coming ahead and you know thankful for the Thanksgiving that we’ve been able to have. But uh know that we value and appreciate you as our listeners and uh I you, Justin, in the in the process of being able to do how we see it

Justin:

That’s right. Same here. Very appreciative for all of us. And Merry Christmas.

Mark:

Merry Christmas. This is how we see it.

Justin:

And happy Hanukkah if that’s you.

Mark:

Cindy.

Justin:

Did we miss any?

Mark:

Likely

Justin:

so. Oh I can’t think of any, but I’m sure, yeah.

Mark:

Yes. Blessings to you and your family. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh and or talk nicely about us on social media If you want to reach out, the email is us@howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.