Mark:

Oh, you gotta put your ears in.

Justin:

Yeah, put my ears in.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

I do have my microphone this day.

Mark:

Yes, you do. You started right off with it. Nice job.

Justin:

Can’t hear this.

Mark:

Oh, a little feedback there.

Justin:

Oh yeah?

Mark:

Ah. Oh. That was interesting.

Justin:

I didn’t hear it.

Mark:

Evidently not.

Justin:

What did it sound like, Mark?

Mark:

It sounded like feedback. It sounded like I tried.

Justin:

I assume I didn’t hear it, so maybe that was a bad represent.

Mark:

Well, you know, uh when you when you hear it you’ll be able to hear it.

Justin:

That’s right. Yeah. Well said.

Mark:

When you listen.

Justin:

When you listen you don’t hear it. Yeah. I’m listening now and I don’t hear it.

Mark:

There you go. Oh it’s not there.

Justin:

I

Mark:

I would know.

Justin:

Yes, you would. Alright, I think I’m

Mark:

You all all adjusted. Adjusted Justin.

Justin:

Justin needs to adjust.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Just in time.

Mark:

Yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

You know, I was disappointed we didn’t catch a little more of what we recorded. after the session last time. I think s I think we had some of our uh Oh you’re adjusting me now. I t I I I thought I was supposed to be kinda at an angle thing.

Justin:

Yeah it was just uh

Mark:

It’s it’s my beard is shorter, Justin. So it makes the microphone look like it’s in the wrong spot.

Justin:

If it’s Angled but past your mouth. That’s not good. It needs to be angled towards. See you.

Mark:

I got, yeah, I hear you. I hear ya.

Justin:

All right, what were we talking about that we wish we were recording? Yeah, I wish we were

Mark:

introduced it. I think the uh the post-recording conversation or uh was in some ways just as good as the uh the actual podcast.

Justin:

What was it about?

Mark:

Well when we were talking about uh colleges versus trades and like I say I didn’t want to come across as far as being dogmatic in either direction, but Yeah, well I think uh I just enjoyed the discussion afterwards and had more opportunity to think about it a little bit.

Justin:

Yeah. So Yeah, ’cause we I got uh yeah, I was a l I think it was just we were talking a little more personal about Right? Yeah, that’s what it was.

Mark:

As far as what, yeah, your experience a little more and yeah.

Justin:

Being yours, yeah.

Mark:

And and just, you know, having having the ability to plan for our kids for the future, you know, and it was just that was yeah, it was a good conversation as far as being able to think about, you know. how we how we plan.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, for our kids’ future, that kind of thing, recognizing, yeah, it’s gonna be an expense, but yet what’s the hurry in some ways? And, you know, is there a hurry? And yeah, it was just it was just some neat life experience stuff. So appreciate you sharing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And you all missed out.

Mark:

But like you say, that’s that’s not to say we can’t revisit the topic in a in a way that Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that would be good. Um yeah, it’d be cool to potentially get someone who’s kind of finance oriented to talk about. practical ways to do that or you know.

Mark:

And just ways to use even

Justin:

Chris.

Mark:

Roth IRAs, you know, those you can use for education, you know, if you if you want to, that kind of thing. So yeah, just being a I it was good to be able to think about ways to make college less expensive too.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, for other people, you know, for our children and that kind of thing and recognizing that hard work does pay off, you know, and yeah, scholarships and what have you there. That was a something we didn’t necessarily address. But I guess we’re addressing it now a little bit, but either way. Or

Justin:

teasing it anyway.

Mark:

Yeah. So as you think about, you know, our culture and what has become, you know Yeah, I I was thinking of of course about the education and I tend to think about, you know, what are I’ll I’ll say universities in some ways, you know, our educational system, higher educational system tends to promote. If you were to just kind of put that in a maybe a if you were to stereotype okay the process of higher education what would your stereotype what comes to mind for you And it’s I’m asking you because like you say, I give you credit for being Far more

Justin:

Yeah. I’m just trying to figure out what the question means. Do you rephrase it?

Mark:

Yeah. When you think about higher education, okay What terminologies come to mind when you think about that as far as I mean, do you think about education? Do you think about sports do you think about? In other words, you know, you ever a lot of people have college teams they support, you know, or they, you know

Justin:

I don’t I a lot of things come to mind honestly. Okay. ‘Cause uh

Mark:

give me the top five.

Justin:

Ooh. Oh okay. Elite elitism.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

That that came to my mind.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um parties. Party schools that came to mind.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um Uh I I don’t know if I have a single word for this, but basically like think tank.

Mark:

Okay. Kind of

Justin:

like a lot of good

Mark:

Brainstorming.

Justin:

A lot of good thought, so a lot of good uh research, you know.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Um because There’s there’s negative and positive things that my mind kind of comes up. Um

Mark:

and maybe stereotype was the wrong word for me to use, but just kinda, you know, what you think of in general.

Justin:

And I think I think kind of uh a little bit of the Chesterton’s fence thing where there’s a lot of a lot of structure that feels unnecessary, but also it’s been that way for so long.

Mark:

Mm

Justin:

and Like so long to the point where, you know, f founding fathers type, you know, close to that far back the way things are. Um So then it’s like I don’t know. Just a lot of rigid rigidity and structure around the whole app you know, application process and how you get in what what you have to do and

Mark:

the process.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think we talked a little bit about how it in other conversations, not just the one about college, but um education about how education doesn’t always look like SATs and you know, getting good SAT scores. I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah. I think about it in in in some of the the context of I think um I’m thinking about it in the as far as Well, I I was there’s a lot of quotes that are coming to mind, but I can’t pull them up as far as you know, but that ability to say, you know, whoever controls the education kind of controls the future type thing. Because, you know, in that dynamic you know, you take a kid and you expose them to a certain level of anything, that’s gonna affect the way they think. And I think, you know, educate higher education tends to continue to promote that. And you know I’m just I’m just thinking about it from different cultural things. I think of I think about it even from, you know, um Like uh when we were seeing Black Lives Matter, you know, how many individuals happen to be kind of young white kids, you know, in that process. And I think, you know, that comes a lot of that comes from a what I would call a higher educational perspective. To be able to recognize, okay, how are people being Misused or or not. You know, that kind of think is is what comes to mind from that aspect as I as I look back and I you know, think about what was going on and who was primarily involved, you know, that’s that’s one of those things that come to mind for me. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Um I guess that that kinda ties into a a thought I had too is um kind of left wing liberal kind of ideology, I think a lot of times is, you know, the very much that’s the education, you know, higher ed

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Um and as we’ve talked about before, well, I don’t necessarily think that’s bad. I don’t necessarily think Yeah, we’ve talked about this before, but like some some ideologies and things I think left wing or right wing, I feel, um, are you know, loving and compassionate or whatever.

Mark:

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s what I’m I that’s what I was thinking, you know, as as far as not wanting anyone to you know, not have the same opportunities as other people. You know, that kind of thing. I think, you know, the aspect of you know, equality, if you will. That there, you know, should be a an equality that is across the board, male, female, you know, race whole whole nine things, you know, whole nine yards. Everything should be equal. And I you know, and I’m I’m I’m I like that word of you use as far as ideology. You know, because I think it is a is it it is an ideology to the point that, you know, everything can be equal or, you know it’s not equal and it’s not equal because of a certain reason, you know, when that may not necessarily be the case, you know, and we can look at it things from different perspectives that you know, maybe more elitist as you use the word, or it may be more victimized, you know, depending on which end of the spectrum you you follow there. But as I was thinking about that further, you know, it’s like the aspect of cancer. Yeah, cancer Cancel, easy for me to say. Not cancer culture. Although that uh doesn’t do uh

Justin:

that’s its own

Mark:

that seems like it’s in its own increase, but like you say Uh cancel culture from that aspect. What what comes to mind for you when I say that word from a

Justin:

Yeah. Well what’s funny is what comes to mind to me isn’t necessarily college, but

Mark:

I understand. It was a it was the best I could do to make the transition.

Justin:

I know. I know. That’s good. Nice try. Um yeah, I’m just saying, yeah, again, for me that’s uh So yeah, cancel c

Mark:

Yeah, now you’re gonna have a tough time saying that. That’s okay too.

Justin:

Cancer culture cancel culture. Um I feel like the the kind of the wording is pretty new, but the idea of it is pretty old. Um in the sense that Uh one of the weapons that we can use in culture is to say that side is bad, this side is good. You know what I mean? And and paint the picture of that side being so bad that you try and get as many people to run over to your side as possible. You know what I mean? Um, and I when I think of that, I think of politics In particular and you know, the the the ads for pol for politicians and how they’re so yeish, you know. And that precedes kind of this whole idea of cancel culture, I think. You know, I think that’s been going a lot a lot longer than quote unquote cancel culture. But um Yeah, one of the unique new things. I don’t I honestly I mean nothing’s new under the sun, right? But kind of this new round of canceled culture is about Um, you know, we we dug up a skeleton and therefore we know you’re human with skeletons and therefore you’re not fit for whatever the thing is you’re doing. Or you know what I mean? Yeah.

Mark:

No, I don’t know what you mean, but I’m with you.

Justin:

I mean it’s it’s this idea that we found something out about you.

Mark:

Oh, okay. When you’re saying a skeleton.

Justin:

Yeah, I gotcha. Found something about out about you in your past that disqualifies you from your current situation.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And there’s a many situations that You know, I’m on board with the cancel. Okay. Right.

Mark:

I see what you’re saying.

Justin:

Uh Epstein is a good example. Okay. You know.

Mark:

Like a Supreme Court nomination depending on when something happened or to You know

Justin:

It depends, yeah. I mean , so for me, so this is the crux of the conversation.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Is that it depends, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think um It it ‘s kind of this flavor of cancel culture is less it depends than just nope, if that’s a thing, then you’re out, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

In other words, it it doesn’t f necessarily factor in a normalized human condition.

Justin:

Right, right. And and not only that, but the ability to change. Um and did true change happen? And you know, your preamble this time is tr is true. Before we started recording, you were asking about boycotting versus cancel Like you mentioned that word.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

And I I have so

Mark:

I led you right down the wrong trail, didn’t I?

Justin:

Well I’m still trying to get back to the the the r the good one you started on before we recorded, but uh Uh where my brain was worrying and then it just shut down. It was like a wrench in the system.

Mark:

Sorry about that.

Justin:

That’s right. Anyway, the boycotting, I c I kinda think like again, that’s been a r that term to me and the usage of it has been around longer than cancel culture. And when I think of boycotting, I think right wing. When I think of cancel culture, I think left wing. I think liberal, I think, you know, and I think boycott conservative or whatever. And I feel like they’re just kind of the same ideas Ish, maybe, maybe not. Actually, let’s let’s break that down. I I don’t think they’re necessarily the same idea, though They could end up being that way in someone’s mind. But like the idea of again, this is how I see it, but my how I see boycotting is this idea of Um this company stands for something we don’t agree with, therefore we need to stop supporting them. So that’s sure. definition and I think most would agree with that. However, I think some people who jump on the boycotting bandwagon are more in a cancel culture mindset.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Of that’s right that, you know, shut him off, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think and I think in s at times, you know, even I think there’s um a realistic aspect to even the the kind of there’s a phrase voting with your dollar

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, that aspect of, you know, where we do put our resources or what we do fund makes a difference.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I’m not saying that has to be a part of cancel culture, you know, but at the same time when same time when I’m aware of my individual decisions and you know I I would even bring it back to maybe, you know, where my investments go or who I, you know, not necessarily, you know Not that the stock market’s all bad or anything, that kind of thing, but being mindful of where my resources are going and what I’m supporting with that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think that is a I guess for me it’s a more palatable version of, you know, it may be a dynamic of the cancer of the cancel culture, you know, in that process. that if and it but I think it’s it’s healthier than just you’re this so therefore

Justin:

yeah um

Mark:

But

Justin:

I agree. But I also you and I both lean definitely conservative. Even if I like I lean I try and lean away from that leading I still lurp I’m still conserv you know.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

And so so are you.

Mark:

Well that’s why I ask you because you’re less conservative leaning.

Justin:

That’s right

Mark:

Or or more open minded in some ways.

Justin:

Well, I don’t think that’s true. I think that we uh that’s why we enjoy these conversations. More away. Okay, gotcha, I gotcha.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, maybe more in credit for culture.

Mark:

Yeah, I give you credit for being more culturally aware.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Although, I mean, you definitely get your own share of awareness through counseling and through you know some of the paradigms you yeah but so we make a good team as well same market hero Nice job. I won’t cancel you today, Mark. Or boycott.

Mark:

Yeah, you know, and that’s I guess in some ways that’s the reality of what we do here. If you don’t like what we do, you don’t have to

Justin:

You can cancel.

Mark:

You can cancel.

Justin:

Please don’t. We need we need your donor dollars.

Mark:

And at the same time, that’s a choice. And if you want to take and I think that’s part of the difference, if you want to take other people with you because of something we said. You get that option. Don’t don’t listen to those guys anymore. Okay. They’re too whatever. You know, conservative too Liberal, I doubt we’ll get called that. I really do. But at the same time, you know, that is a perspective dynamic. And I was just thinking about it, you know, in that process of a healthy way, you know, to deal with that cancel culture.

Justin:

So again, there is um so there’s particular movements that kind of come to mind. Yeah. Um one is the Shoot. Me too movement.

Mark:

Okay. Sure.

Justin:

Like I can’t wanted to say she said.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I was like, that’s not that’s not it. Me too movement. Um which if you’re not familiar I’ll uh explain to you as you crawl out from under your rock. But b

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

basically is this idea that um W women started coming out saying, you know, I was, you know, sexually abused or sexually even I don’t know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What’s what are the terms of the terms that aren’t quite abused, but harassed. You know, the kind of harassment and and or, you know, you know, someone in influence used you know, my sexuality against me in some form or another is whether it was to prevent me from getting you know, and through that whole process, um I I personally was very thankful for that because I think there is a lot of that happening or was happening. I’m sure still happening. I don’t I don’t I don’t think that’s ever gonna go away. But um there’s dynamics to and we’ve talked about masculinity, toxic masculinity, we’ve talked about gender, we’ve talked about a lot of these things that there’s And we’ve talked about a little bit about um the patriarchy and the idea behind that. And a lot of those things aren’t going away. Maybe ever. Um and so m and men men and by men I mean mankind, man men and women, but w were evil at our heart and that that’s something we believe theologically as believers is that by nature our bent is towards evil. and more accurately towards our own flesh. So pr you know, mm feeding my own desires and my own and uh me above all others, right? And so as a result, there’s gonna be situations where men specifically the gender men will use the fact that they’re a man and they have particular influence in their situation to get what they want, which is sex, which is Influence, which is uh affection from women, whatever. What were you gonna say?

Mark:

Power.

Justin:

Power. Yeah. Yep And as a result, women will be abused through that one way or another. I think and I so I guess all that to say I’m thankful to have some light shed, some accountability brought sure. Um brought to bear, um, in the sense that You know, y there was this minute there where I think every man i in show business especially was afraid of like, well crap, are they gonna talk about this thing? Well maybe they should. You know, it’s like it was kind of my mindset like But at the same time, obviously there’s a fine line between that and grace and someone, you know, changing and um having done the wrong things in their past. Heck, I’ve done lots of wrong things in my past that I you know, we talk about it, celebrate recovery and talk about You know, it’s a big part of what we do at CR is talk about the junk in our drawer from the pa you know, the our past situations, our skeletons. Yep. Um, in order to provide some light for those still dealing with that thing in a path forward and and also to try keep us out of that. Right. Sure. That away from those things. Um So cancel culture is just this idea that well you did a bad thing once and therefore you’re that person and that person can’t be allowed to be doing the thing that that person’s doing. Which you know, whether it’s politics or showbiz or whatever. And um again, in some cases, I think that’s true. You are that person and you shouldn’t be allowed to be doing what you’re doing because there was there’s no since that thing was found, there’s nothing in their life that you can point to that says

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You’re not someone different, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I can definitely think of different individuals that have been kind of accused in that whole thing. Mm-hmm. That I’m like, yeah, probably probably a good thing they’re canceled. You know, I don’t I can’t see any reason you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah, I do. And I’m not and uh I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it because in some ways I’m not always sure the in the the cancel culture dynamic it ‘s as cut and dry as what you’re describing. You know, that somebody did something wrong, therefore And I think at times it can just be somebody said something, you know, that was conservative or somebody said something that was liberal. And therefore now we You know, and and at times I’m not even always sure that people under f have a full understanding of the context.

Justin:

I guess Yeah, I agree.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I guess I I think from from my perspective I was coming at it from the historical part of how we got here. Okay. And I feel like, okay, so now that that thing happened,

Mark:

Me Too movement. Me too movement. I got you. Yep.

Justin:

Maybe you know, maybe a listener has ideas of other things ha preceded that that kind of even set the stage for me too. But for me, that seemed like a watershed moment in terms of cancel culture. Okay. And again, I look at that thing and I think mostly good outcome. Like mostly I’m thankful for the cancels that happened in that culture. Right. So Uh, but I think it set a precedence for hey this thing works. Right. Like and um and then, you know, obviously there’s there’s been concerns which I don’t feel too bad about this, but like, well, I’m a man, I’m an actor, and maybe I did something in my past, but I’m not like that anymore and am I gonna lose my livelihood?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know? And um That part of me just wants to go boo hoo, but but then there’s a part of me that goes, Yeah, that’s I understand. Like we want grace. We need grace, you know, and And maybe that person is legitimately trying to be a different person, you know. And I support that in every way, you know. Um And that maybe to an extreme compared to most people, and that that’s as a result of hearing eight hundred testimonies right over the last fourteen years of doing celebrate recovery and going Holy crap, that person can change. You know, and and yeah, anyway. So yeah, I agree with you. It’s gotten to I think in some ways an extreme place where you can point at one single sentence and say, that’s who that person is, therefore cancel.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

To bring it back around to it.

Mark:

And and when would you say the uh I’m I’m honestly think about it from the aspect of um, you know, Me Too movement, that kind of thing. Where when what what era would you put that in as far as that goes?

Justin:

Uh what do you mean by

Mark:

nineties

Justin:

Do you need to? No twenty tens.

Mark:

Okay Yeah, I’m I’m just I’m I guess I’m just thinking about it even as I you think of different, you know, and I do think about it even from the um uh university standpoint of um I think of and I even the Olympics. You know, when I’m thinking about these doctors Nasser. Nasser.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Um I was thinking about the uh the coach from Penn State. You know, who had you know, because those those things and and I there again, I think, you know, some of that might have preceded that

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Me too. As as you as you brought up the point, I was just thinking about s what I can’t think of the coach from, but yeah.

Justin:

So Tirana Burke, never heard that name.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Have you?

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Is an American activist and business executive. In t two thousand six she founded the Me Too movement, which sought to assist survivors of sexual violence, especially women of color So I guess two thousand six would have been the kind of starting point.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I I never heard any of that, but um but yeah, so I mean they’re ramped up, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah But it I guess maybe I’m older than I think I am, but it seems like some of those other dynamics, even you know

Justin:

Yeah, like the Olympic I think that was all

Mark:

Was that was that all about the same time?

Justin:

I mean let me look at it uh Nasser Olympics.

Mark:

And was it Sandusky? Was the coach from Penn State? There again. Um the th those are the things that are kind of coming to mind as we, you know, have this topic. And by all means I think there’s something to be said for, you know, people of power, you know, taking advantage of people, you know, who don’t have the same power or using their power in such a way that is you know, manipulative or you know what what’d you find there?

Justin:

Accusations from the nineties to twenty eighteen, but June seventeenth, two thousand fifteen is when Shh according to court filings and interviews, Maggie Nick Nichols and her coach Sarah Jancy reported NASA USA gymnastics officials on june seventeenth, twenty fifteen.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um yeah.

Mark:

So that was 2015.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

And Sandusky.

Mark:

Yeah, well like I say, I I might be really Pulling back. It was it was under Paterno. I know Joe Paterno was a head coach and I thought, yeah, couldn’t remember who was underneath him. Might not even show up. I might have a Wrong person.

Justin:

He was arrested at his residence on December seventh, twenty eleven.

Mark:

Okay. So yeah.

Justin:

That was the other one?

Mark:

No, that was that was the was that Sandusky?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. No, that was they yeah, that’s the same I think.

Justin:

So that’s yeah, so 2006 kind of started ramping this up.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um which Sandusky, I mean that was boys. So I don’t know if it fell into Me Too. But yeah, definitely the idea of

Mark:

Yeah. And and someone in power who, you know basically assaulted a number of individuals, you know. Yeah. And me too, it kind of comes to mind. And I don’t and I, you know, fully agree that you know, a lot of that circumstance, it’s not just about other people jumping on the bandwagon. I believe

Justin:

you know

Mark:

that that had been going on for a long time.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I yeah, go ahead.

Justin:

Sorry

Mark:

But as people and I so yeah, I think there is an aw and I I would be the first to admit, and I even I think I’ve even had, you know, these conversations with, you know, like uh Lizzie, it’s it’s to the point of recognizing that if I’m it it almost went to a point of feminism at times Because it’s like even now, you know, it’s like sometimes when I open the door for somebody, it’s not that I don’t think you can open the door for yourself, you know, that kind of thing, but I think it’s changed an awareness that we have. It’s like You know, am I offending you by doing so? You know what I mean? It’s it’s you you uh if I may, your stick analogy.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, it’s gone from

Justin:

working.

Mark:

It’s gone from, you know, one part to another as far as yeah, what was just a chivalrous, if I may say so you know dynamic has become something that is, you know, rude.

Justin:

Yeah. I think one of the aspects of culture we can count on like the ticking of a clock as the pendulum swinging, right? Oh sure. Think of a grandfather clock and how the the pendulum swings back and forth and like that’s absolutely part of how culture works. And um I definitely see this whole cancel culture me too, all of that, the pendulum swinging back from the direction it was.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And probably I think reaching a point where it’s gonna start swinging back or is already. Um that’s my perspective on it. Because there’s a reason it got so bad in this became such a big thing. It’s because the pendulum had been on that other end for so long that i it there was no longer even that much effort to be secret about these things

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that could only last so long, and all of a sudden it’s like, well, you saw that? Yeah. Yeah, that’s a real thing. And then, okay, well let’s deal with it. And then we did. And it’s like Well they dealt with it. Why can’t you know and it’s like boom boom boom boom the dominoes started falling.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

And now they’re you know, it’s like the dom you know, the dominoes are just knocking down everywhere and it’s like even good dominoes are you know like whatever And I feel like again, my perspective and we can let’s listen back in twenty years and see, you know, whatever, but I feel like we’re reaching a point where it’s gonna start swinging back because now you know, chaos, n dominoes everywhere, and we can’t we don’t even know anymore which dominoes are good or which ones are bad and uh so now it’s time to start rebuilding that domino train, right? Like and and and I think There’ll be kind of a shift into like, all right, all right.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I feel like that’s already happening. I think there’s so much So many different things that have kind of latched onto this cancel culture idea that it’s gotten to the point where it’s like, all right, we’re doing that again. Let’s just wait it out and see how legit this really is.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I feel like that’s where we’re at already.

Mark:

In other words, there’s a there’s a waiting process that wasn’t necessarily uh Let’s see where the facts go or what’s bubbles to the surface before we start to jump to a conclusion. Is that what I’m hearing?

Justin:

Yeah, where now I think boy cried wolf would never enough times by this point that the pendulum’s starting to swing back. That’s that’s my perspective on it to where it’s like, well, let’s just see how how it works out in court and let’s see, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And So I also want to say the fact that a few innocents probably got hit in this whole Me Too thing, that’s a bummer. The fact that so many got caught, right, is I don’t want to even say that’s worth it. That’s terrible. That’s not what I mean. But I’m just really thankful that the pendulum swung this way because Um I

Mark:

needed to swing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

In as everybody should. I have a particular distaste for sexual abuse and you know I have you know, reasons because of, you know, our my family and in and stuff like that. That I just to me that’s very a very angering thing when I hear about that, you know. So I’m really thankful to hear people got what they had, you know what I mean? And uh if someone got canceled because they did that in the past, And maybe they’re changed now. I don’t feel too bad about it. Partly because I don’t know that person or I don’t you know, like I think it might be different if I was doing accountability with them and I’m like, well, you don’t understand. This person’s really actually working to be a different per you know, that’s a whole different thing. And but

Mark:

it’s like any law or anything that’s personal. Once it becomes once it affects me you know, and I’m a different person or it affects me and yeah, I gotta I can’t deny this anymore. Yeah. You know, then it takes on a personal dynamic and Yeah. If if I may that pendulum swing, I like the pendulum swing. What would you say is underneath that? In other words, what creates I know you you mentioned the the lady in 2006 Do you think that’s really what it comes down to is one person create

Justin:

I don’t.

Mark:

I but I would be so therefore I would be curious what do you see is the underlying factor and and and granted you know the mind can go to the spiritual realm and that kind of thing and yet I’m still thinking about it, is there a uh is there very much a cultural dynamic that comes into play that tends to regulate which direction that pendulum shifts as you see it

Justin:

Yeah, I mean I I don’t even think it’s that deep or complicated. I just think it’s the nature of the pendulum to where like I was saying, we’re where it’s swinging so far this way the momentum can no longer take it that way. It has to do what gravity does and swing back. And that’s what that’s what I that’s why I was trying to talk about the scenario where We’re no longer even doing this in secret. We’re so confident of no one’s gonna call me out on this. I have so much power, I can just

Mark:

The process.

Justin:

Yeah, I think it’s the process is for people like us.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

So I can do this because that’s I’m in the specific vein of who this works for.

Mark:

Sure. Okay.

Justin:

Um and again, I think it the pendulum swings so far that way so long that it eventually it just cannot be supported that way anymore. It’s like now you’re just raping people in your office in front of your whole office.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And there’s photographic evidence and there’s eighteen witnesses and you know And then not only are you doing that, like I said, it comes out, it’s publicized, people start finding out, and then you’re like, that just happened in my office. Maybe I should talk about it, right? And so you get what I’m saying about the natural pendulum of like you reach a point where it cannot go any further and start swinging back the other direction.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I don’t think it’s my perspective is I don’t think there’s you know, you c you you you can point to that lady or you can point to specific uh events, but I I al I I always feel like that’s just that’s not the trigger. That’s the thing that points to the pendulum swinging back. The natural course correction that happens culturally. And I believe, you know, again, spiritually, that this is you know, God’s way of handling things, you know what I mean? And and um which yeah, we’re probably if we go that direction it could we could never come back. But uh there’s a lot to be said about that.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

But yeah, I I don’t think it’s that complex. I don’t think there’s underground things that are manipulating I think it’s the na natural course.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I do think people take credit for those swings. Or like you ‘ll we’ll give credit, right? Sure. Look at that person. They changed the course of whatever. It’s like yes, they were they were part of that pendulum swinging back.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and

Mark:

so even even people like uh Martin Luther King or somebody like that, you would say that pendulum, I’m not undermining him, but you would say It just got to a point where people said, no, this isn’t right. And uh he happened to be a spokesperson for that pendulum swing.

Justin:

Yeah, I never thought about that, but I think you could totally go that dri right. Like I think you could make a case for the way the church had gone and like how extreme it had in it had reached a point where, okay, something’s gonna start tipping. Sure. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So yeah. I

Mark:

hear ya. Yes.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Yeah, and I I would argue too, like just think about um you think about Cirque de Soleil Right? Yeah.

Mark:

I’ve uh you know what that is.

Justin:

It’s like this these crazy circus performers. Like

Mark:

uh it’s not that’s like a version of ice capades or something like that. Not that I but not on ice, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Gymnastics and what they do is I mean, world define like it’s insane. Like the level it’s way beyond ice copies in my opinion as far as no, I agree.

Mark:

I just

Justin:

Cap yeah, what they’re pulling off and yeah.

Mark:

It’s a show.

Justin:

It’s otherworldly what they’re able to do. Like so much of what they’re doing depends on momentum.

Mark:

Okay. Right.

Justin:

So the the feats that they’re accomplishing seem physics defying, but it’s not. It’s physics.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It’s the natural swing of motion can cause that much dynamic you know thing or enough people jump on a trampoline at the same time creates this and that person’s Two hundred feet in the air. I mean it’s ridiculous. But it’s like it doesn’t seem like that’s possible for those four people to go boink like that and this person to be

Mark:

Yeah. Right.

Justin:

And so you look at that person, you think that person is not human, right? Like they they have something that none of us do. Which is still true. I’m not taking away from their abilities. They are ridiculous in their athleticism and they’re doing things that do get them killed.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Like it’s it’s it’s it’s intense things they’re doing. Like but the point is It’s math, you know? And I feel like that’s very similar to something like Martin Martin Luther King Jr. or Martin Luther King or Martin Luther King Jr. Sure. Right? Either one of those. Where Th there’s nothing to take away from what they did, but you also have to recognize the power of momentum.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. In the physics that are in play and the pendulum that’s happening. And if you catch that pendulum at the right time and you are properly prepared for that moment You know, you could be the one that’s the spokesperson for the swing back the other direction.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um I I I think that’s Recognizing that and saying that that’s true is important for every believer in what we’ve talked about and purpose, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That I might not be that one, but I need to be prepared for that opportunity. I need to be doing what I need to be doing on a daily basis, that I don’t miss that opportunity if I’m called to it, or I recognize that maybe that I’m not that person. But my purpose is no different. There’s no less.

Mark:

Sure. I don’t have to be that person, but yet I can be Preparing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s in such a way that says if I become that person, so be it.

Justin:

Yeah. And I I guess what I’m saying is I think those people do take special some things. I I’m not taking away from them. You know, if you you know, you might be doing work right now that doesn’t seem to hap but you’re you have a special purpose and you’re doing outli outlier work, right? Sure. You’re doing something beyond what most of us do, there might be a reason for that as part of catching a the next wave of history.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Which waves is another good analogy, you know.

Mark:

Sure. They come

Justin:

ebb and flow and

Mark:

I appreciate you sharing on that pendulum. That’s a that’s a yeah. And that ability. And it so As you I’m I’m curious, okay, in the as I as I think about the pendulum, as I kind of think about the cancer cancel culture. Man, I have a tough time with that one As I do you see that everything and I use that word, you know, everything flows back and forth? Or is there a general movement in some ways that over time the clock moves? You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah, I do. Yep. Uh so again that kinda comes back for me a to a theological question which is how long is eternity? Well it’s pretty darn long time. So if you take that into perspective, I do think, yeah, it’s all a pendul like And the whole story arc of the Bible is I think you can see the pendulums there of like, you know, it started out perfect, it swung towards evil. you know, God brought Jesus into the picture, started swinging back and now you see that pendulum of end of the Bible and revelation and he’s gonna make it right and swing it back.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, no I hear yeah, I and I and that’s where I’m at. I think I think there’s a there we can be aware of the micro pendulums, but I do believe like you’re saying, biblically, there is the macro where God definitely steps in. Yeah. and sets things correct. You know, it’s like it’s for lack of better terminology, it’s like daylight savings time. Boom.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It happens this time, you know, and that’s and that’s God’s way of making it light again. You know, I just poor analogy, apologize. But you know, it’s not that the clock has moved. It’s this process of God has basically said, okay This is too far and we can yeah, like you’re saying with Noah or you know, with Jesus, you know, his you know, there was this time where there was a pointed time and there was an appointed person.

Justin:

Yeah, and you could see the pendulum literally stop at that person to go the other. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah. No. It’s interesting to think about all the, you know, all the different people when you think about scripture, you know, how God used them in such a way to reset a moment, you know, in history. You know, that and it it it kind of brings back the, you know, when you were talking about every, you know, our hearts being evil and that kind of thing, you know, you think about the Jobs and, you know, and the Daniels that were given the opportun you know, labeled righteous, you know, in that process or, you know, man after God’s own heart type thing. Not that they didn’t have their errors, you know, sp I was thinking more of David, but yet, you know, it was it’s interesting to see how God was able to move in people’s lives. And even from a cancel culture perspective, you know, being able to recognize, yeah, they had their own histories. You know, and I think, you know, even even Paul talks about that, you know, how the things that he had done, you know, with zeal he’s like I was I was clueless about that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And if you thought you were this and I was that, that much more, you know, that kind of thing. But yet Yeah, I was just still bringing it back to that aspect of he wasn’t excluded by God. In other words, God doesn’t cancel uh you know, us based on our past, if anything, he uses those skeletons

Justin:

that’s right

Mark:

in such a way that has influence and helps other people in that process

Justin:

Yeah, I think you saying that definitely hits on this kind of deeper thought that I’ve had not deeper, but like uh kind of this underlying thought which I’ve had, which is anytime someone’s skeletons are brought out, to me is an opportun like it’s a good thing.

Mark:

Sure. No doubt.

Justin:

Um and this comes from you know, a m yeah, a perspective of change in in my own life and again being involved in a recovery ministry and anytime those skeletons are brought to light that brings us the opportunity to then deal with them.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um or you know, you can hire a bunch of l lawyers to try and stuff it and hide it and, you know, like pay off the whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which certainly i was a thing and is a thing that that has happened. Um yeah, and so even even if someone’s skeletons are brought out and you feel like, yeah, but they’re not that person anymore Again, it’s an opportunity to address, to deal with, to admit, to and I w I want to see my leaders who get canceled, right, because of their things and they go Well, darn. I was hoping that would never get out, but here we are. Sure. You know, and work through it. And that’s the kind of leader I wanna trust and respect. with leading the things that I’m you know, my country, my state, my whatever is the ones that can because we all have skeletons. There’s none of us that that Nobody has uh clean closets, right? Like there’s stuff you have that you would rather not the public know about.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So if you can have those things brought out and then work through them Like to me that speaks to your character and the integrity and the ability to, you know and and helps to uh plead your cause in the sense of I am different and I want to work through this. That sounds different than you know just saying I’m different or like you know, being defensive or whatever Um and a lot of that just it’s gonna take time if you’re if you’re saying you’re different, we’re not gonna believe you till we see it kind of thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and like I said, in some cases you can see there there’s no current evidence And that that’s part of the this whole struggle too is it’s like it kind of puts a lot of doubt in a lot of places, good and bad, right? Where it’s like, well, you say you don’t do anything and I don’t really see anything, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not happening behind closed doors because that’s the nature of this whole these whole movements is like Let’s get this thing out of the dark. And um But again, I’d very much feel like it’s a pendulum to where we’re like, all right I I gotta stop believing every accusation because they’re not all true, you know, or there’s nuances to the story that don’t come out when the first flames start flaring, yeah.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah yeah.

Mark:

And I was thinking about it as far as, you know, uh the whole aspect of guilty till proven innocent type thing. That’s you know, that’s a unfortunate consequence at times, you know, because we can have people who, you know, might have been, like you were saying, the innocent who are, you know, a victim of circumstance But at the same time, you know, there is the aspect where, you know, okay, we do have this awareness that we’re growing in, but it doesn’t have to be It’s not necessarily, well, the a witch hunt is kind of what comes to mind, you know, in in that process. And I think at times that’s what a, you know, cancer. cancel culture can become is this process of the the witch hunt type thing. And I think you what you you know you describe in a healthy sense is is a humility. You know, to be able to recognize that yes, I made a mistake at that point. I see it as a mistake, you know nothing I can do about it is it is a s it is a real skeleton, but I’ve also put these things in my life to be able to, you know, keep that from happening again. And I think, you know, it’s helpful when as you describe when you recognize, okay, we all have those skeletons ’cause I think, you know, that’s kind of what Jesus did when, you know, he had the the woman caught in the affair before him. You know, he just said, Hey, yeah, this may or may not be, but There’s some things about this that still seem pretty sketchy to me. You know, it’s like we have this woman, where’s the man? You know, how come there isn’t a man that’s brought forward with this woman? Cause you know, that that kind of thing. And I I like that dynamic of, you know, being able to say, okay. Yeah, I have my issues as well, and am I am I fully aware of them in this moment? And if I am, how am I gonna look at that person differently because of that awareness?

Justin:

So go

Mark:

right ahead while the gears are spinning pal, I see them.

Justin:

Uh that just gets to a bigger point, which is when we’re hiding some things in our closet, a lot of times those are the things that we form our war parties around.

Mark:

Mm. Right? Okay.

Justin:

So if it comes out that this person was abusing someone and you know, or or has this sexual sin and th I’ve seen it a lot with s uh sexual sin, um where until I fully come to an admission that yeah, I m am messed up and I have a sexual addiction of some sort. Um up until that we spend our whole life justifying andor protecting ourselves and or hiding and or like masking it. And one of the most common masks I’ve seen is like this uh indignancy towards the issue.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? That we s and I’ve seen again, this is coming from a church perspective and seeing this from church leadership.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where it’s like You will go to hell if you you know whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And kind of this like level of indignancy towards the issue.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I do think there is an aspect like what you were just saying. Can I come to grips with my own struggles and say that person’s like me? Or am I nowhere near that ability to do that and I only have the ability to Uh what’s the word when you uh

Mark:

focus? Oh, okay.

Justin:

You know, I only have the ability to g to say that person’s guilty. And and like point outwards and I c As long as I’m pointing outwards and got my finger guns up, right? Like no one’s looking at me. Right. And uh and they they clearly see I’m on the side of righteousness because I’m pointing the fingers. Does that make sense? So I think that

Mark:

And I s and I quite often I I’ll be honest, I’ll I’ll see that in individuals who might have, like you’re saying, that pet topic. that you can’t do that thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If you do that thing, you are not a Christian.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I think at times that can be, you know, part of what you describe in that process. It’s like I’m gonna focus on that thing because that helps me minimize the things that I have going on inside of me. Instead of being able to say, okay, yep, this is what’s going on with me and I’m gonna work on that. And you’re welcome to join me because if you share that struggle, you know, so be it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And that speaks to I mean ultimately we’re about covering and hiding or justifying. You know, I think that again, going back to the flesh thing, uh that’s part of it. And so sometimes it is about the very thing I struggle with, I pretend I am the most righteous about. Sometimes it’s uh what you’re describing makes me think of someone who’s been uh who’s been abused who now says that is the worst thing ever, right? So you’re on the receiving end of that. And like you said, rather than address the issues that I can’t forgive, which That’s a hairy issue and I don’t say that lightly, but rather than address my own struggles, I can only point out where that that thing and and that forever will be my my f center of focus. Sure. Right. And Yes. Both of them cause us to not have the ability to I don’t know, be have grace. I guess, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh whether it’s I’m struggling with that thing, so I won’t admit it or that’s the thing that hurt me. I don’t have the ability to look at it with a a proper grace perspective, a God perspective. And honestly, none of us do until he gives us that ability. That’s why the He sent the Holy Spirit, you know, so that we can think about things above our own ability because we’re being transformed by the renewing of our mind. You know what I mean? Because our natural bent is towards flesh and protecting myself and you know, defending and justifying and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So I think we made it all the way around to a certain degree. It’s certainly uh I appreciate the way, you know, you’ve brought it around to wrap up in the in that sense of being aware of the mistakes we make in the process because yeah. I believe we’ve all done things that might be worthy of canceling, but yeah, you know, being able to recognize that, okay, yeah, how am I how am I excluding others? Uh how am I, you know, because I think we can look at a cultural dynamic and say, oh, that’s the source. That, you know, that that sports team, that, you know, educational system, whatever we want to, but you know, when we bring it back to the fact that, yeah, we’re in this human experience And yet God has still provided ways to be able to value people. And even the mistakes we make don’t have to be hidden. And, you know, they can be a great source of freedom to other people when we actually address that in a way that says, okay, yeah, you can cancel me if you want to, but this is still my experience and I’m I’m gonna kind of continue to share that in such a way that offers other people freedom in that process.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does. ‘Cause getting caught doesn’t have to be the end of the story, but so often it is.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I also appreciate how you brought it back around to the story about Jesus and bringing the w you know, the Pharisees bringing the women out women out to him. Um I think you’re talking about the the the wom the same story, but you know, dragging her in front of him saying, Now what are you gonna do? Are you gonna condemn this lady? And he said, All right, here’s the deal Yeah. After writing in the sand for a minute.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And uh this whole phrase of he who you know

Mark:

It’s without sin and

Justin:

throw the stone first. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know, and I feel like that’s so appropriate to this conversation. Um So often we don’t have that challenging voice.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know, to say, hey, what’s your story? Yeah. Are you without sin? Is this you know mm you know and I think Again, I don’t want to take this whole cancel culture conversation and turn it into, well, we need to have grace for everyone.

Mark:

I get you.

Justin:

I think there is some, you know, some truth to and s Some justice that was happening and is happening as a result, and I think that’s justice is also a character of God, right? But so is grace. And so I think we should desire both In the measures that the Holy Spirit desires. You know, and so that’s really where our prayers come in and say, God, I pray you know, pray that you’ll have the right thing happen here because this looks real bad. Yeah. And yet everyone deserves grace. So what we you know, we put this in your hands, you know, and trust him with it. And I that’s why I think the pendulum is squarely in his hands. And um I think the beautiful thing about God is um he’s put a lot of systems in place and I think the pendulum is a systematic part of his creation where he’s not actively moving the pendulum with his hands, he created the beautiful architecture that allows that thing to self-correct over time.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And he’s in control of it all, but he also isn’t like You know, I don’t know. I it depends on your perspective.

Mark:

He’s not anxious about it in that process.

Justin:

He’s not manipulating every little clockwork every second. He created this beautiful amazing architecture that he can look back on and say, this is good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I don’t know how I got to that, but

Mark:

that’s okay. I do I do, yeah. I actually uh it what you were describing, you know. I think so often that I run into, you know, is the individuals who have a uh an affair type dynamic in the relationship And you know, I think in a lot of ways the the the most hopeful thing that I can offer is this this can this can make your relationship better than it ever was. you know, it doesn’t mean that you have to cancel this relationship altogether. You just we just need to recognize, okay, some things need to change and to be able to say, yeah, the even despite this this relationship can flourish in ways that it was never able to before and part of that is gonna be because there is this truth and this awareness now that we’re actually willing to deal with.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And so yeah, that’s kind of what came to mind as you were, you know, describing that process. So yeah. Thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah. Thanks for T for trying to say cancel culture.

Mark:

Yeah, I can I can say it may be cancel culture.

Justin:

Nice job. Look at that.

Mark:

Yeah, I didn’t even have to stop and think.

Justin:

In one episode.

Mark:

We talked about it long enough. Yeah, and sorry about that transition at the beginning too. It got a little yeah nebulous out there, but yeah.

Justin:

So I I appreciate your efforts.

Mark:

I guess I uh sometimes I uh sometimes it’s better than others. That’s that’s the reality.

Justin:

Yes. Yeah. Sounds like uh the state of life.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do.

Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us@howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.