0:05
oh got to put your ears in yeah I put my ears there you go I do have my microphone this time yes you do you started right off with it nice job I

0:13
can't hear oh little feedback there oh yeah yeah oh that was interesting I

0:21
didn't hear it evidently not what did it sound like

0:27
Mark it sounded like feedback it sounded like Z all right yeah good job hey I try I

0:34
assume I didn't hear it so maybe that was a bad representation well you know uh when you when you hear it you'll be

0:40
able to hear it that's right yeah well said when you

0:47
listen when you listen you hear it yeah I'm listening now and I don't hear it there you go well it's not

0:54
there I I would know yes you would you would all right I think I'm you all

1:02
adjusted adjusted Justin Justin needs to adjust yeah Jus in time

1:09
[Music]

1:14
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:21
a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful

1:27
conversations [Music] you know I was disappointed we didn't

1:33
catch a little more of what we recorded after the session last time I think I

1:38
think we had some of our uh oh you're adjust a KNE now I I I I thought I was

1:44
supposed to be kind of at an angle thing yeah it was just uh it's it's my beard

1:50
is shorter Justin so it makes the microphone look like it's in the wrong spot if it's angled but past your mouth

1:57
it's not good it needs to be angled oh to C I got yeah I hear you I hear you

2:04
all right what we were talking about that we wish we were recording yeah I wished I think the uh the postrecording

2:11
conversation or uh was in some ways just as good as the uh the actual podcast

2:17
what was it about well when we were talking about uh colleges versus trades and like I say I didn't want to come

2:23
across as far as being dogmatic in either direction but yeah I think I just enjoyed the discussion after afterward

2:30
and had more opportunity to think about it a little bit Yeah Yeah cuz we I got

2:37
yeah it was a I think it was just we were talking a little more personal about right yeah that's what it was as

2:43
far as what yeah your experience a little more and yeah and yours and and just you know having having the ability

2:51
to plan for our kids for the future you know and it was just that was yeah it was a good conversation as far as being

2:58
able to think about you know how we how we plan yeah you know for our kids future that kind of thing recognizing

3:05
yeah it's going to be an expense but yet what's the hurry in some ways and you know is there a hurry and yeah it was

3:12
just it was just some neat life experience stuff so appreciate you sharing yeah yeah and you all missed out

3:22
so but like you say that's that's not to say we can't revisit the topic in a in a

3:27
way that yeah yeah that would be good um yeah it'd be cool to potentially get

3:34
someone who's kind of Finance oriented to talk about practical ways to do that

3:40
or you and just ways to use even Chris even use your you know retirement

3:46
accounts you know like IAS and stuff like that Roth IRAs you know those you can use for Education you know if you if

3:52
you want to that kind of thing so yeah just being a i it was good to be able to think about ways to make College less

4:00
expensive too you know for other people you know for our children and that kind of thing and recognizing that hard work

4:07
does pay off you know and yeah scholarships and what Happ you there that was a something we didn't

4:12
necessarily address but I guess we're addressing it now a little bit but either way we're teasing it anyway yeah

4:20
so as you think about you know our culture and what has become you

4:26
know I I was thinking of of course about the education and I tend to think about

4:32
you know what are I I'll say universities in some ways

4:38
you know our educational system higher educational system tends to promote if

4:43
you were to just kind of put that in a maybe a if you were to

4:50
stereotype okay the process of higher education what would your stereo what

4:56
comes to mind for you [Laughter]

5:02
and it's I'm asking you because like you say I give you credit for being far more yeah I'm just trying to

5:09
figure out what the question means I'm just thinking you rephrase it yeah when you think about higher

5:17
education okay what terminologies come to mind when you think about that as far

5:24
as I mean do you think about education do you think about

5:30
sports do you think about in other words you know you every a lot of people have

5:35
college teams they support you know or they you know I don't I a lot of things

5:41
come to mind honestly okay because uh give me the top five U okay if there's a lot of things

5:49
El elitism okay that that came to my mind okay

5:54
um parties party schools that came to mind sure um

6:02
uh I don't know if I have a single word for this but basically like Think Tank okay kind of like a lot

6:11
of good brainstorming a lot of good thoughts and a lot of good research and

6:16
sure yeah um cuz there's there's negative and positive things that my

6:22
mind kind of comes um and maybe stereotype was the wrong word for me to use but just kind of you know what you

6:28
think of in general

6:33
and I think I think kind of uh a little bit of the Chesterton fence

6:41
thing where there's a lot of a lot of structure that feels unnecessary but

6:47
also it's been that way for so long and like so long to the point where you know

6:54
founding fathers type you know close to that far back the way things s um so

7:02
then it's like I don't know just a lot of rig rigidity and structure around the

7:07
whole you know application process how you get in what what you have to do and the process yeah and I think we talked a

7:13
little bit about how it in other conversations not just the one about college but um education about how

7:20
education doesn't always look like SATs and you know getting good SAT

7:25
scores I don't know yeah I think about it in in in some of the

7:31
the context of I think um I'm thinking about it in the as

7:38
far as I there's a lot of quotes that are coming to mind but I can't pull them up

7:44
as far as you know but that ability to say you know whoever controls the

7:49
education kind of controls the future type thing because you know in that Dynamic you know you take a kid and you

7:57
expose them to a certain level of anything that's going to affect the way they think and I think you know educa higher

8:04
education tends to continue to promote that and you know I'm just I'm just thinking about it from different

8:11
cultural things I think I think about it even from you know um like a when we

8:19
were seeing black lives matter you know how many individuals happen to be kind

8:24
of young white kids you know in that process and I think you know that comes

8:30
a lot of that comes from a what I would call a higher educational perspective to be able to recognize okay how are people

8:39
being misused or or not you know that kind of think is is what comes to mind

8:45
from that aspect as I as I look back and I you know think about what was going on

8:51
and who was primarily involved you know that's that's one of those things that

8:56
come to mind for me does that make sense mhm yeah I think so yeah

9:04
uh I guess that that kind of ties into a a thought I had too is um kind of

9:12
leftwing liberal kind of ideology I think a lot of times is you know very much that's the

9:19
education you know higher ed side of things iar yeah um and as we've talked

9:25
about before well I don't necessarily think that's bad I don't necessarily

9:30
think we've talked about this before but like some some ideologies and things I think left wing or right wing I feel um

9:40
are you know loving and compassionate or whatever sure yeah yeah yeah that's why I'm that's where I was thinking you know

9:47
as far as not wanting anyone to you know

9:52
not have the same opportunities as other people MH you know that kind of thing I

9:57
think you know that aspect of of you know equality if you will that there you

10:03
know should be a an equality that is across the board male female you know

10:10
race whole whole nine things you know whole nine yards everything should be

10:16
equal and I you know and I'm I'm I'm I like that word of you use as far as

10:21
ideology you know because I think it is a is it it is an ideology to the point that you know everything can be be equal

10:30
or you know it's not equal and it's not equal because of a certain reason you

10:36
know when that may not necessarily be the case you know and we can look at it things from different perspectives that

10:43
you know maybe more elitist as you use the word or it may be more victimized

10:48
you know depending on which end of the spectrum you you follow there but as I

10:54
was thinking about that further you know it's like the aspect of cancer yeah

10:59
cancer cancel easy for me to say not cancer culture cancer culture although

11:04
that uh doesn't to uh that's own that seems like it's in its own increase but like you say uh cancel culture from that

11:11
aspect what what comes to mind for you when I say that word from a yeah well

11:17
what's funny is what comes to mind to me isn't necessarily college but I understand but it was it was the best I

11:25
could do to make the transition I know I know was good nice try uh yeah I'm just saying yeah again

11:33
for me that's um so yeah cancel yeah now you're

11:40
going to have a tough time saying it that's okay too cancer culture cancel culture um I feel like the the kind of

11:47
the wording is pretty new but the idea of it is pretty old um in the sense

11:55
that uh one of the weapons that we can use in culture is to say that side is

12:02
bad this side is good you know what I mean and and paint the picture of that side being so bad that you try and get

12:08
as many people to run over to your side as possible you know what I mean um and I when I think of that I think of

12:13
politics in particular and you know the the the ads for for politicians and how

12:20
they're so yesh you know I hear you yeah um and that precedes kind of this whole

12:27
idea of cancel culture I think you know that's been going a lot lot longer than quote unquote cancel culture but

12:34
um yeah one of the unique new things I don't I honestly I mean nothing's new

12:40
Under the Sun right but kind of this new round of cancel culture is about um you

12:47
know we dug up a skeleton and therefore we know you're human with skeletons and

12:52
therefore you're not fit for whatever the thing is you're doing or you know what I mean and no I don't know what you

12:58
mean but I'm with you I mean it's it's this idea that we found something out about you oh okay when you're saying a

13:05
skeleton I got you found something about out about you in your past that disqualifies you from your current

13:12
situation okay and there's a many situations that you know I'm on board

13:17
with the cancel okay right I see what you're saying uh Epstein is a good example okay you know like a supreme

13:24
court nomination depending on when something happened or to you know it

13:30
depends yeah so for me so this is the Crux of the conversation right is that

13:36
it depends right yeah and I think um it kind of this flavor of cancel

13:44
culture is less it depends in just nope if that's a thing then you're out you know sure um in other words it it

13:52
doesn't necessarily factor in a normalized human condition right right

13:59
and and not only that but the ability to change um sure and did true change happen and you know your Preamble this

14:07
time strug before we started recording you were asking about boycotting versus

14:13
cancel like you mentioned that word yeah yeah and I I I led you right down the

14:18
wrong trail didn't I I'm still trying to get back to the the the the good one you

14:24
started on before we recording but uh where my brain was woring and then it just shut down there like a wrench in

14:31
the system sorry about that that's all right that I that's more on my own

14:36
tiredness than on your uh anyway the boycotting I I kind of

14:41
think like again that's been that term to me and the usage of it has been around longer than cancel culture and

14:47
when I think of boycotting I think right-wing when I think of cancel culture I think leftwing I think liberal

14:52
I think you know and I think boycott conservative whatever and I feel like they're just kind of the same

14:59
ideas is maybe maybe not actually let's let's break that down I I don't think

15:05
they're necessarily the same idea though they could I end up being that

15:12
way in someone's mind but like the idea again this is how I see it but my how I see boycotting is this idea of um this

15:20
company stands for something we don't agree with therefore we need to stop supporting them so that's that's a

15:25
pretty base definition and I think most would agree with that however I think some people who jump on the boycotting

15:31
bandwagon are more in a cancel culture mindset sure of that's right that you

15:37
know shut them off you know yeah and I think and I think in at times you know

15:42
even I think there's a a realistic aspect to even the kind of there's a

15:48
phrase voting with your dollar y you know that aspect of you know where we do

15:53
put our resources or what we do fund yeah makes a difference yeah you know

15:59
and I'm not saying that has to be a part of cancel culture you know but at the

16:04
same times when same time when I'm aware of my individual decisions and you know

16:12
I would even bring it back to maybe you know where my investments go or who I you know not necessarily you know not

16:20
that the stock market's all bad or anything that kind of thing but being mindful of where my resources are going

16:27
and what I'm supporting with that yeah I think that is a I guess for me it's a more palatable

16:35
version of you know it maybe a dynamic of the cancer of the cancel culture you

16:43
know in that process that if and but I think it's it's healthier than just

16:51
you're this so therefore yeah um but yeah I think I agree

16:59
but I Al a go ahead you and I both lean definitely conservative even if I like I

17:06
lean I try and lean away from that leaning I still we're I'm still conserved you know I hear you and so so

17:12
are you well that's why I ask you because you're less conservative leaning that's right that's right or or more

17:18
open-minded in some ways well I don't think that's true I think that that's

17:23
why we enjoy these conversations because yeah okay got you I got you yeah yeah

17:29
maybe more culture yeah I give you credit for being more culturally aware yeah yeah although I mean you definitely

17:36
get your own share of awareness through counseling and through you know some of the paradigms you yeah but we make a

17:44
good team as when hey Mark you're okay job I won't cancel you today Mark or boycott you yeah you know and

17:52
that's I guess in some ways that's the reality of what we do here if you don't

17:58
don't like what we do you don't have to you can cancel you can cancel please

18:04
don't we need we need your donor dollars just kidding and at the same time that's

18:09
a choice and if you want to take and I think that's part of the difference if you want to take other people with you

18:17
because of something we said you get that option don't don't listen to those guys anymore they're too whatever you

18:26
know conservative too liberal I doubt will get called that I really do but at

18:32
the same time you know that is a perspective Dynamic and I was just thinking about it you know in that

18:38
process of a healthy way you know to deal with

18:45
that can Soul there you go culture so again there is um so there's

18:54
particular movements that kind of come to mind one is the

19:01
shoot me too movement okay sure like I can't wanted to say she said okay I was

19:06
like that's not that's not it me too movement uh which if you're not familiar

19:14
I'll uh explain to you as you crawl out from under your rock but yeah basically

19:19
this idea that um women started coming out saying you know I was you know sexually abused or

19:26
sexually even I don't know know sure what's what are the terms that aren't

19:32
quite abused but harassed you know the kind of harassment and or you know you

19:38
know someone in influenced used you know my sexuality against me in some form or

19:44
another whether it was to prevent me from getting you know and through that whole process um I I personally was very

19:53
thankful for that because I think there is a lot of that happening or was happening I'm sure are still happening I

19:59
I don't I don't think that's ever going to go away but um there's Dynamics to and we've talked about masculinity toxic

20:07
we've talked about gender we've talked about a lot of these things there's and we've talked about a little bit about um

20:13
the patriarchy and the idea behind that and a lot of those things aren't going away maybe ever um and so in men men and

20:24
by men I mean mankind men men and women but were evil at our heart and that's

20:29
something we believe theologically as Believers is that by Nature our bent is

20:35
towards evil and more accurately towards our own flesh so you know feeding my own

20:41
desires and my own and me above all others right and so as a result there's

20:48
going to be situations where men specifically the gender men will use the

20:53
fact that they're a man and they have particular influence in their situation to get what they want which is sex which

21:00
is influence which is uh affection from women whatever what were you going to

21:06
say power power yep yep and as a result women will be abused through that one

21:12
way or another I think and so I guess all that to say I'm thankful to have some light shed some accountability

21:18
brought sure um brought to bear um in the sense that you know there was a

21:25
minute there where I think every man in chit especially was afraid of like well

21:31
crap are they going to talk about this thing well maybe they should you know it's like was kind of my mindset like

21:37
but at the same time obviously there's a fine line between that and Grace and

21:42
someone you know changing and um having done the wrong things in their past heck

21:48
I've done lots of wrong things in my past and I you know we talk about it celebrate recovery and talk about you

21:54
know it's a big part of what we do at CR is talk about the junk in our drawer from you know our past situations our

22:00
skeletons yep uh in order to provide some light for those still dealing with

22:07
that thing and a path forward and and also to try and keep us out of that right sure away from those things um so

22:16
cancel culture is just this idea that well you did a Bad Thing Once and therefore you're that person and that

22:23
person can't be allowed to be doing the thing that that person's doing which you know whether it's politics or Showbiz or

22:30
whatever and um again in some cases I think that's true you are that person

22:35
and you shouldn't be allowed to be doing what you're doing because there was there's no since that thing was found

22:41
there's nothing in their life that you can point to that says sure you're not someone different right yeah and I can

22:48
definitely think of different individuals that have been kind of incused in that whole thing mhm that I'm like yeah probably probably a good thing

22:55
they're canceled you know I don't I can't see any reason you know what I mean yeah I do and I'm

23:01
not and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it because in some ways I'm not always sure that in the the cancel

23:09
culture Dynamic it's as cut and dry as what you're describing you know that

23:16
somebody did something wrong therefore and I think at times it can just be

23:21
somebody said something you know that was conservative or somebody said

23:28
something that was liberal and therefore now we you know and and at times I'm not

23:35
even always sure that people un have a full understanding of the context I guess yeah I agree okay I

23:43
guess I I think from from my perspective I was coming at it from the historical

23:49
part of how we got here okay and I feel like okay so now that that thing happened yep you know me too mov Meo

23:56
movement yep maybe you know maybe a listener has ideas of other things

24:02
preceded that that kind of even set the stage for me too but for me that seemed like a watershed moment in terms of

24:08
cancel culture okay and again I look at that thing and I think mostly good

24:13
outcome like mostly I'm thankful for the cancels that happened in that culture right so uh but I think it set a

24:20
precedence for hey this thing works right like and um and then you know

24:27
obviously there's there's been concerns which I don't feel too bad about this

24:33
but like well I'm a man I'm an actor and maybe I did something in my past but I'm not like that anymore and am I going to

24:39
lose my livelihood sure you know and um

24:44
that part of me just wants to go boohoo but then there's a part of me that goes yeah that's I understand like we want

24:51
Grace we need Grace you know and and maybe that person is legitimately trying to be a different person you know and I

24:59
support that in every way you know um and maybe to an extreme compared to most

25:06
people and that's as a result of hearing 800 testimonies right over the last 14

25:12
years of doing celebrate covery and going holy crap that person can change and and yeah

25:18
anyway so yeah I agree with you it's gotten to I think in some ways an

25:23
extreme place where you can point at one single sentence and say that's who that that person is MH therefore cancel I

25:31
gotcha right yeah to bring it back around to it and when would you say the I'm I'm honestly think about it from the

25:37
aspect of um you know me too movement that kind of thing where when what what

25:42
era would you put that in as far as that goes uh what do you mean by in other words 90s 80s me too no 20 TS okay yeah

25:54
I'm just I'm I guess I'm just thinking about it even as I you think of different you know and I do think about it even

26:01
from the um uh University standpoint of um I

26:07
think of and even the Olympics you know when I'm thinking about these doctors n

26:13
Nasser yeah um I was thinking about the uh the coach from Penn State you know who had you know CU those those things

26:21
and and there again I think you know some of that might have preceded that

26:27
yeah me too as as you as you brought up the point I was just thinking about what

26:33
I can't think of the coach from but yeah so Tana Burke never heard that name okay

26:40
have you no is an American activist in business executive in 2006 she founded

26:45
the me too movement which sh to assist survivors of sexual violence especially women of color so I guess 2006 would

26:52
have been the kind of starting point I I never heard any of that but um but yeah

26:57
so 201 yeah but I I guess maybe I'm older

27:03
than I think I am but it seems like some of those other Dynamics even you know yeah like the olymp I think that was all

27:09
was that was that all about the same time I mean let me look at uh Nasser

27:20
Olympics and was it sand dusy was the coach from Penn State

27:26
M there again I'm I'm the th those are the things that are kind of coming to mind as we you know have this topic and

27:33
by all means I think there's something to be said for you know people of power

27:39
you know taking advantage of people you know who don't have the same power or

27:44
using their power in such a way that is you know manipulative or you know what'

27:51
you find there accusations from the 90s to 2018 but June 17 2015 is when

28:01
according court filings and interviews Maggie n Nichols and her coach Sarah jansy reported n USA Gymnastics

28:08
officials in June 17 2015 okay um yeah so that was 2015 yeah

28:14
okay yeah and sanduski yeah like I say I might be really pulling back it was I

28:22
was under paternal I know Joe paternal was a head coach and I thought yeah couldn't remember who was under

28:28
Underneath Him might not even show up I might have a wrong person he was arrested at his

28:36
residence on December 7 2011 okay so yeah that was the other one no that was

28:43
that was was that sand dusi yeah okay no that was yeah that's the same so that's

28:48
yeah so 2006 kind of started ramping this up yeah uh which sanduski I mean that was boys I don't know if it fell in

28:55
the me too but yeah definitely the well I do think there yeah and and someone in

29:03
power who you know basically assaulted a number of

29:10
individuals you know and me too it kind of comes to mind and I don't and I you

29:16
know fully agree that you know a lot of that circumstance it's not just about other people jumping on the bandwagon I

29:23
believe you know that that had been going on for a long time yep and I yeah go ahead

29:32
sorry but as people and so yeah I think there is an and I I would be the first

29:38
to admit and I even I think I've even had you know these conversations with you know like uh Lizzy it's it's to the

29:45
point of recognizing that if I'm it it almost went to a point of feminism at

29:53
times because it's like even now you know it's like sometimes when I open the door for somebody it's not that I don't

30:00
think you can open the door for yourself you know that kind of thing but I think it's changed an awareness that we have

30:07
it's like you know am I offending you by doing so you know what I mean it's it's

30:12
you if I may your stick analogy yeah you know it's gone from it's

30:20
working it's gone from you know one part to another as far as yeah what was just

30:26
a chivalrous if I may say so you know

30:31
dynamic has become something that is you know rude yeah I think one of

30:42
the aspects of culture we can count on like the ticking of a clock is the

30:48
pendulum swinging right oh sure think of a grandfather clock and how the pendulum swings back and forth and like that's

30:55
absolutely part of culture works and um I definitely see this whole

31:02
cancel culture me too all that the pendulum swinging back from the direction it was okay and probably I

31:10
think reaching a point where it's going to start swinging back or is already um

31:16
that's my perspective on it because there's a reason it got so bad and this

31:21
became such a big thing it's because the pendulum had been on that other end for so long that it

31:28
there was no longer even that much effort to be secret about these things sure and that could only last so long

31:35
and all of a sudden it's like well you saw that yeah yeah that's a real thing

31:40
and then okay well let's deal with it and then we did and it's like well they dealt with it why can't you know and

31:46
it's like boom boom boom boom the Domino started falling gotcha and now they're you know it's like the do you know the

31:51
dominoes are just knocking down everywhere and like even good dominoes you know like whatever and I like again

31:59
my perspective and we can let's listen back in 20 years and see you know whatever but I feel like we're reaching

32:05
a point where it's going to start swinging back because now you know chaos

32:10
dominoes everywhere we can't we don't even know anymore which Domino are good or which ones are bad and uh so now it's

32:16
time to start rebuilding that domino train right like and and I

32:22
think there'll be kind of a shift into like all right all right sure and I feel

32:28
like that's already happening I think there's so much so many different things that have

32:35
kind of latched onto this cancel culture idea that it's gotten to the point where it's like all right we're doing that

32:41
again let's just wait it out and see how legit this really is okay I feel like that's where we're at already in other

32:47
words there's a there's a waiting process that wasn't necessarily uh let's

32:54
see where the facts go or what bub to the surface before we start to jump to a

33:01
conclusion is that what I'm hearing yeah we now I think boy cried wolf enough enough times by this point that the

33:08
pendulum's starting to swing back that's that's my perspective on it to where it's like well let's just see how it

33:15
works out in cord and let's see you know yeah and so I also want to say the fact

33:21
that a few Innocents probably got hit in this whole me too thing that's a bummer

33:27
the fact that so many got caught M right is I don't want to even say that's worth

33:33
it that's terrible that's that's not what I mean but I'm just really thankful that the pendulum swung this way because

33:41
um needed to swing yeah yeah and as everybody should I have a particular

33:46
distaste for sexual abuse and you know I have you know reasons because of you

33:52
know our my family and and and stuff like that that I just to me that

33:58
very a very angering thing when I hear about that you know so I'm really thankful to hear people got what they

34:05
had you know what I mean and uh if someone got cancelled because they did that in the past M and maybe they're

34:12
change now I don't feel too bad about it partly because I don't know that person and I don't you know like I think it

34:18
might be different if I was doing accountability with them and I'm like you don't understand this person's really actually working to be a

34:25
different you know that's a whole different thing and well it's like any law or anything that's personal once it

34:30
becomes once it affects me you know and I'm a different person or it affects me

34:37
and yeah I gotta I can't deny this anymore you know then it takes on a personal Dynamic and yeah if if I may

34:45
that pendulum swing I like the pendulum swing what would you say is underneath that in other words what creates I know

34:52
you you mentioned the the lady in 2006 do you think that's really what it comes

34:58
down to is one person create I don't I but I would be so therefore I would be

35:04
curious what you see is the underlying factor and and and granted you know the

35:11
mind can go to the spiritual realm and that kind of thing and yet I'm still thinking about it is there a is there

35:19
very much a cultural Dynamic that comes into play that tends to regulate which

35:27
dire that pendulum shifts as you see it yeah I mean I I don't even think it's

35:33
that deep or complicated I just think it's the nature of the pendulum to where like I was saying where where it's

35:40
swinging so far this way the momentum can no longer take it that way it has to do what gravity does and swing back and

35:47
that's that's what that's why I was trying to talk about the scenario where we're no longer even doing this in

35:53
secret we're so confident of no one's going to call me out on this I have so

35:58
much power I can just yeah sure I think it's more I'm

36:05
above the process yeah I think it's the process is for people like us I Goa so I

36:12
can do this because that's I'm in the specific vein of who this works for you

36:18
know sure okay um and again I think it the pendulum swings so far that way so

36:25
long that it eventually it just cannot be supported that way anymore it's like now you're just raping people in your

36:31
office in front of your whole office sure and there's photographic evidence and there's 18 Witnesses and you know

36:38
mean and then not only are you doing that like I said it comes out it's

36:44
publicized people start finding out and then you're like that just happened in my office maybe I should talk about it

36:50
right and so you get what I'm saying about the natural pendulum of like you reached a point where it cannot go any

36:55
further and start swinging back the other direction sure so I don't think it's my perspective is I don't think

37:01
there's you know you can point to that lady or you can point to specific uh

37:07
events but I I I always feel like that's just that's not the trigger that's the

37:14
thing that points to the pendulum swinging back I hear the natural course

37:19
correction that happens culturally and I believe you know again spiritually that this is you know God's way of handling

37:28
things you know what I mean and and um which yeah probably if we go that

37:34
direction it could we could never come back but no doubt there's a lot to be said about that but yeah but yeah I I

37:40
don't think it's that complex I don't think there's like where underground yeah yeah things that are manipulating I

37:47
think it's the N natural course yeah but I do think people take credit for those swings or like I got we'll give credit

37:55
right look at that person they changed the or whatever it's like yes they were they were part of

38:02
that pendulum swinging back sure you know and so even even people like uh

38:07
Martin Luther King or somebody like that you would say that pendulum I'm not undermining him but you would say it

38:14
just got to a point where people said no this isn't right and he happened to be a

38:22
spokesperson for that pendulum swing yeah I never thought about that but I think you could totally go that right

38:29
like I think you could make a case for the way the church had gone and like how

38:35
extreme and it had reached a point where okay something's going to start tipping you know what I mean sure so yeah I hear

38:43
yeah yeah yes I got you yeah and I I would argue too like just think about um

38:50
you think about cir theay right you ever heard of that you know that it's like

38:55
this these crazy circus performers like it's not it's like a version of icecapades or something like that not

39:01
that's not but yeah gymnastics but what they do is I mean world Define like it's

39:08
insane like the level it's Way Beyond icecapades in my opinion as far as no I agree I just cap you know what they're

39:15
pulling off and yeah it's a show it's otherworldly what they're able to do like I got but so much of what they're

39:22
doing depends on momentum okay right so the the Feats that they're accomplishing seem physics defying but it's not it's

39:30
physics sure right it's the natural swing of motion can cause that much

39:36
Dynamic you know thing or enough people jump on a trampoline at the same time creates this you know and that person's

39:44
200 feet in the air I mean it's ridiculous but it's like it doesn't seem like that's possible for those four

39:50
people to go boink like that and this person to be yeah youed that far in right and so you look at that person you

39:56
think that person is not human right like they they have something that none of us do which is still true I'm not

40:03
taking away from their abilities they are ridiculous in their athleticism and they're doing things

40:09
that do get them killed sure right like it's it's it's it's intense things

40:15
they're doing like but the point is it's math you know and I feel like that's

40:21
very similar to something like Martin Martin Luther King Jr Martin Luther King or Martin Luther King Jr sure right

40:27
either one of those where there's nothing to take away from what they did but you also have to

40:33
recognize the power of momentum sure right in the physics that are in play in the pendulum that's happening and if you

40:40
catch that pendulum at the right time and you are properly prepared for that moment you know you could be the one

40:47
that's the spokes person for the swing back the other direction sure and um I I

40:53
I think that's recognizing that and saying that that's true is important for every believer in what we've talked

40:59
about in purpose you know sure that I might not be that one but I need to be

41:05
prepared sure for that opportunity I need to be doing what I need to be doing on a daily basis that I don't miss that

41:12
opportunity if I'm called to it or I recognize that maybe that I'm not that person but my purpose is no different is

41:19
no less sure you know I don't have to be that person but yet I can

41:25
be preparing yeah and in such a way that says if I become that person so be it

41:32
yeah and I I guess what I'm saying is I think those people do take special something I I'm not taking away from

41:39
them um so you know if you you know you might be doing work right now that

41:44
doesn't seem to have but you you have a special purpose and you're doing out outlier work right sure you're doing

41:51
something beyond what most of us do there might be a reason for that as part of you know catching it the next wave of

41:57
history no doubt which waves is another good analogy you know sure they come and

42:02
flow and yeah yeah no I appreciate you sharing on that pendulum that's a that's

42:08
a yeah and that ability and it so as

42:14
you I'm I'm curious okay in as I as I think about the pendulum as I kind of

42:21
think about the cancer cancel culture man I have a tough time with that as I

42:27
do you do you see that everything and I Ed that word you know everything flows

42:34
back and forth or is there a general movement in some ways that over time the

42:42
clock moves you follow me yeah I do

42:48
yep uh so again that kind of comes back for

42:53
me to a theological question which is how long is eternity well it's pretty

42:59
darn long time so if you take that into perspective I do think yeah it's all a pendent like in the whole story arc of

43:07
the Bible is I think you can see the pendulums there of like you know it

43:13
started out perfect it swung towards evil you know God brought Jesus into the

43:18
picture started swinging back and now you see that pendulum of end of the Bible and Revelation and he's going to

43:24
make it right and swing it back sure does that make sense yeah no I hear I and and that's where I'm at I think I

43:30
think there's a there we can be aware of the micro pendulums but I do believe

43:37
like you're saying biblically there is the macro where God definitely steps in

43:44
yeah and sets things correctly you know it's like for lack of better terminology

43:51
it's like Daylight Savings Time boom yeah it happens this time you know and that's and that's God 's way of making

43:58
it light again you know I just poor analogy apologize but you know it's not

44:05
that the clock has moved it's this process of God has basically said okay

44:11
this is too far and we can yeah like you're saying with Noah or you know with

44:16
Jesus you know his you know there was this time where there was appointed time

44:21
and there was an appointed person yeah and you could see the pendulum literally stop at that person sure go the other

44:28
you know what I mean yeah no it's interesting to think about all the you know all the different people when you

44:34
think about scripture you know how God used them in such a way to reset a

44:40
moment you know in history you know that and it it it kind of brings back the you

44:47
know when you were talking about every you know our hearts being evil and that kind of thing you know you think about

44:53
the job and you know and the Daniels that were given the opportunity you know

44:59
labeled righteous you know in that process or you know man after God's Own

45:05
Heart type thing not that they didn't have their errors you know I was thinking more of David but yet you know

45:14
it was it's interesting to see how God was able to move in people's lives and

45:19
even from a can Soul culture perspective you know being able to recognize yeah

45:26
they had their own histories MH you know and I think you know even even Paul

45:32
talks about that you know how the things that he had done you know with Zeal he's

45:38
like I was I was clueless about that yeah you know and if you thought you

45:43
were this and I was that that much more you know that kind of thing but yet yeah

45:50
I was just still bringing it back to that aspect of he wasn't excluded by God

45:57
in other words God doesn't cancel you know us based on our past if

46:03
anything he uses those skeletons that's right in such a way that has influence

46:09
and helps other people in that process yeah I think you saying that definitely

46:15
hits on this kind of deeper thought that I've had not deeper

46:21
but like kind of this underlying thought which I've had which is anytime

46:27
someone's skeletons are brought out to me is an opport like it's a good thing

46:33
sure no doubt um and this comes from you know a yeah a perspective of change in

46:40
in my own life and again being involved in a recovery Ministry and anytime those

46:46
skeletons are brought to light that brings us the opportunity to then deal

46:51
with them sure um or you know you can hire a bunch of lawyers to try and stuff it and hide it and you know like pay off

46:58
the whatever which certainly was a thing and is a thing that that happened um

47:04
yeah and so even even if someone's skeletons are brought out and

47:11
you feel like yeah but they're not that person anymore mhm again it's an opportunity sure to

47:17
address to deal with to admit to and I I want to see my leaders who get cancelled

47:24
right because of their things and they go well darn I was hoping that would never get out but here we are you know

47:31
and work through it and that's the kind of leader I want to trust and respect

47:36
with leading the things that I'm you know my country my state my whatever is the ones that can because we all have

47:43
skeletons there's none of us that that nobody has uh clean closets right like

47:49
there's stuff you have that you would rather not the public know about yeah so if you can have those things brought out

47:56
and then work through them like to me that speaks to your character and the

48:02
integrity and the ability to you know and and helps to uh plead your cause in

48:09
the sense of I am different and I want to work through this that sounds different than you know just saying I'm

48:17
different or like yeah you know being defensive or whatever um and a lot of that just it's going to take time if

48:24
you're if you're saying you're different we're not going to believe you till we see it kind of thing sure um and like I

48:29
said in some cases you can see there there's no current evidence and that that's part of the

48:37
this whole struggle too is it's like it kind of puts a lot of doubt in a lot of

48:43
places good and bad right where it's like well you say you don't do anything and I don't really see anything but that

48:49
doesn't necessarily mean it's not happening behind closed doors cuz that's the nature of this whole these whole

48:54
movements is like let get this thing out of the dark and um but again I very much

49:01
feel like it's a pendulum to where like all right I got to stop believing every accusation because sure they're not all

49:08
true you know or there's nuances to the story that don't come out when the first

49:14
Flames start flaring up no doubt um yeah

49:19
yeah and I was thinking about it as far as you know uh the whole aspect of guilty till proven innocent type thing

49:26
that's you know that's an unfortunate consequence at times you know because we

49:32
can have people who you know might have been like you were saying the innocent

49:37
who are you know a victim of circumstance but at the same time you know there is the aspect where you know

49:44
okay we do have this awareness that we're growing in but it doesn't have to

49:49
be it's not necessarily well a Witch Hunt is kind of what comes to mind you

49:55
know in in that process and I think at times that's what a you know caner cancel culture can become is this

50:03
process of the The Witch Hunt type thing and I think you what you you know you

50:09
describe in a healthy sense is is a humility you know to be able to

50:15
recognize that yes I made a mistake at that point I see it as a mistake you

50:21
know nothing I can do about it is it is a it is a real skeleton but I've also

50:27
put these things in my life to be able to you know keep that from happening again MH and I think you know it's

50:35
helpful when as you describe when you recognize okay we all have those

50:41
skeletons because I think you know that's kind of what Jesus did when you know he had the the woman caught in the

50:48
affair before him you know he just said hey yeah this may or may not be but

50:54
there's some things about this that still seem pretty pretty sketchy to me MH you know it's like we have this woman

51:00
where's the man MH you know how come there isn't a man that's brought forward with this woman cuz you know that that

51:08
kind of thing and I I like that Dynamic of you know being able to say okay yeah

51:13
I have my issues as well and am I am I fully aware of them in this moment and

51:20
if I am how am I going to look at that person differently because of that

51:26
awareness [Laughter] so go right ahead while the gears are

51:33
spinning pal I see them um that just gets to a bigger point

51:38
which is when we're hiding some things in our closet a lot of times those are the things that we form our war parties

51:46
around right okay so if it comes out that this person was abusing someone and

51:53
you know or has this sexual sin and that I've SE seen it a lot was uh sexual sin

51:59
um where until I fully come to an admission that yeah I am messed up and I

52:05
have a sexual addiction of some sort um up until that we spend our whole life

52:10
justifying Andor protecting ourselves in or hiding in or like masking it and one

52:17
of the most common masks I've seen is like this uh Indy towards the issue sure

52:24
right that we and I've seen again this is coming from a church perspective and seeing this from church leadership sure

52:31
where it's like you'll go to hell if you you know whatever and kind of this like level of Indy towards the issue so I do

52:39
think there is an aspect like what you were just saying can I come to grips

52:44
with my own struggles and say that person's like me or am I nowhere near that ability to do that and I only have

52:52
the ability to uh what's the word when you um focus

52:59
indict oh okay you know I only have the ability to to say that person's guilty

53:05
Jud and like Point outwards and I as long as I'm pointing outwards and got my finger guns up right like no one's

53:11
looking at me right and and they they clearly see I'm on the side of righteousness because I'm pointing the

53:17
fingers does that make sense so I think that and I and I quite often I I'll be

53:22
honest I I'll see that in individuals who might have like your saying that pet

53:27
topic that you can't do that thing yeah if you do that thing you are not a

53:34
Christian yep you know and I think at times that can be you know part of what you describe in that process it's like

53:42
I'm going to focus on that thing because that helps me minimize the things that I

53:48
have going on inside of me instead of being able to say okay Yep this is

53:54
what's going on with me and I'm going to work on that and you're welcome to join me because if you share that struggle

54:01
you know so be it yeah yeah yeah and that speaks

54:07
to I mean ultimately we about covering and hiding or justifying you know I think that again going back to the flesh

54:14
thing that's part of it and so sometimes it is about the very thing I struggle

54:19
with I pretend I am the most righteous about sometimes it's yep uh what you're describing makes me think of someone

54:26
who's been uh who's been abused who now says that is the worst thing ever right

54:31
so you're on the receiving end of that and like you said rather than address the issues that I can't forgive which

54:37
that's a hairy issue and I don't say that lightly but rather than address my own struggles I can only point out where

54:43
that that thing and and that forever will be my my center of focus sure right

54:49
and yes both of them cause us to not have the ability to

54:56
I don't know be have Grace I guess right sure uh whether it's I'm struggling with that thing I admit it or that's the

55:04
thing that hurt me I don't have the ability to look at it with a a proper

55:09
Grace perspective a god perspective and honestly none of us do until he gives us

55:15
that ability that's why he sent the Holy Spirit you know so that we can think about things above our own ability sure

55:23
because we're being transformed by the renewing of our mind you know what I mean cuz I'm natural bent is towards flesh and protecting myself and you know

55:30
MH defending and justifying and yeah yeah

55:36
yeah so I think we made it all the way around to a certain degree it's certainly uh I appreciate

55:44
the way you know you've brought it around to wrap up in in that sense of

55:49
being aware of the mistakes we make in the process because yeah I believe we've

55:55
all done things that might be worthy of canceling but yet you know being able to

56:01
recognize that okay yeah how I how am I excluding others how am I you know because I think

56:08
we can look at a cultural Dynamic and say oh that's the source that you know that that sports

56:16
team that you know educational system whatever we want to but you know when we

56:23
bring it back to the fact that yeah we're in this human experience and yet God has still

56:29
provided ways to be able to Value people and even the mistakes we make

56:37
don't have to be hidden and you know they can be a great source of freedom to

56:43
other people when we actually address that in a way that says okay yeah you can cancel me if you want to but this is

56:51
still my experience and I'm I'm going to kind of continue to share that in such a

56:56
way that offers other people freedom in that process yeah does that make sense

57:02
it does cuz getting caught doesn't have to be the end of the story but so often it is yes yep yeah yeah I also

57:10
appreciate how you brought it back around to the story about Jesus and bringing the you know the Pharisees bringing the women out woman out to him

57:17
um I think you're talking about the the the woman the same story but you know dragging her in front of him saying now

57:23
what are you going to do you going to condemn this lady and he said all right here's the deal yeah after writing in the sand for a minute exactly and uh

57:31
this whole phrase of he who you know is without sin throw the stone first yeah

57:36
go ahead yep you know and I feel like that's so appropriate to this conversation mhm um so often we don't

57:45
have that challenging voice yes you know to say hey what's your story yeah are

57:50
you without sin is this you know you know and I think again I don't want to

57:57
take this whole cancel culture conversation and turn it into well we need to have Grace for everyone I get

58:02
you I think there is some you know some truth to and some justice that was

58:08
happening and is happening as a result and I think that's Justice is also a character of God right but so is Grace

58:15
and so I think yep we should desire both in the measures that the Holy Spirit

58:21
desires you know and so that's really where our prayers come in and say God I pray you know pray that you'll have the

58:27
right thing happen here because this looks real bad and yet everyone deserves Grace so what you know we put this in

58:34
your hands you know trust him with it and I that's why I think the pendulum is squarely in his hands and uh I think the

58:40
beautiful thing about God is um he's put a lot of systems in place and I think the pendulum is a systematic part of his

58:48
creation where he's not actively moving the pendulum with his hands he created the beautiful

58:54
architecture that allows that thing self-correct over time and he's in control of it all but he also isn't like

59:01
you know I don't know I it depends on your perspective anxious about it in that process he's not manipulating every

59:07
little Clockwork every second he created this beautiful amazing architecture that he

59:13
can look back on and say this is good yeah right yeah and um yeah

59:21
yeah yeah I don't know how I got to that but that's okay I do I do yeah actually

59:26
uh what you were describing you know I think so often I run into you know is

59:31
the individuals who have a a an affair type dynamic in the relationship and you

59:37
know I think in a lot of ways the the the most hopeful thing that I can offer is this this can this can make your

59:45
relationship better than it ever was you know it doesn't mean that you have to

59:50
cancel this relationship Al together you just we just need to recognize okay some

59:56
some things need to change and to be able to say yeah even despite this this

1:00:03
relationship can flourish in ways that it was never able to before and part of

1:00:08
that is going to be because there is this truth and this awareness now that we're actually willing to deal with yep

1:00:15
and so yeah that's kind of what came to mind as you were you know describing that process so yeah thanks for sharing

1:00:22
Justin yeah thanks for for trying to say cancel culture yeah I can I can say it now cancel culture nice job look at I

1:00:30
didn't even have to stop think in one episode we talked about it long enough

1:00:36
yeah sorry about that transition at the beginning to it got a little yeah nebulous out there but yeah so I I

1:00:43
appreciate your efforts and your transition I guess sometimes I uh

1:00:48
sometimes it's better than others that's that's the reality yes yeah sounds like a the the state of Life yes

1:00:56
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