0:00
[Music]

0:06
so here's my thoughts on advertising and um this is this is just just how I see

0:13
it um what frustrates me is when I find a

0:19
podcast and it's a good podcast and you start listening and then

0:24
over time you just see more and more advertising come in and it's you know Frozen SE Seafood it's like you know

0:32
fresh meat and it's like what was kind of an entertaining

0:37
opportunity for a podcast turns into 15 minutes of the podcast and it seems like

0:44
the over the advertising is overtaken the podcast that's my concern so you

0:50
don't want that I don't want that you don't want that corporate money well and

0:55
there again I'm I'm willing it's like what's that's why I asked the question what's the advantage to it cuz is there

1:02
an advant I know there is when you know I'm hearing you know these big time

1:07
folks but at the same time there's also a part of me that says okay we're not

1:14
there yet yeah yeah and yeah I so to talk talk talk with me through the the

1:20
whole business end I'm open to that well so I think at the scale we're at and for

1:28
you know mhm what whatever that foreseeable future is 53 53 uh audience

1:36
exactly hey that's pretty good is it I I would know that's why I'm saying 53 more

1:41
than we have that's [Music]

1:49
right welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:56
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

2:01
thoughtful [Music]

2:07
conversations at the scale we're at I doubt there's going to be you know much benefit in terms of what you know yeah

2:14
income back to us um May maybe there's a you're setting a

2:19
precedent or like maybe there's value in that I don't know I feel like the value there is pretty low but maybe there's

2:25
something to to saying hey this is a thing that will be part of what we're doing um I think long term it helps

2:36
to you know like when all the fun starts drying up or you know becomes more work

2:42
I gotta the the additional income could potentially help right and also can help

2:48
us pay for a better mic stand instead of this uh blue tape mon like the blue tape

2:53
but like to say it it does yeah yeah and you know I mean I don't know how many ads it would take to to yeah to to get

3:01
us a new mic stand but uh probably a few it probably be a few yeah yeah unless

3:07
they 53 listeners listen like 10 times each maybe we'll get there sooner there

3:12
you go so if you guys could get on that you can really can really use a new mic

3:18
stand uh but the sound is good you've done a nice job oh thanks I mean I'd like to take credit but I I don't really

3:25
tweak the sound it's just it's a good mic yeah mic's pretty good yeah say not so much uh you know maybe it's the blue

3:32
tape that's got to be it that's where the magic is exactly it's kind of a

3:38
buffer although we didn't have the blue tape the first couple shows it's true and it may have

3:45
shown true but yeah I mean what kind of profit

3:51
do you want Mar well and that's where I'm at it's like sure like the old country like the

3:59
country song a little more be all right ever heard that yeah you know a little more be all right but it's like

4:06
everybody's fed everybody's clothed you know that kind of thing and I don't want

4:11
to necessarily become something different yeah for the sake of the dollar yeah do

4:21
you here's a question for you are there podcasts you shouldn't be recordist no I am oh okay sorry ABR ABR okay I thought

4:28
you shut that one off didn't realiz we segue now a new chapter change my mind yeah that's okay

4:34
um the question for me is is there a podcast that you listen to where there's ads where you're like where they add

4:41
credibility does that make sense because I think that's for me I think that a potential thing for me most of the ads

4:49
that I hear it's like it's

4:56
not well here's um like can you mention another podcast on a podcast without

5:02
let's try it okay um relatable okay Ali Stucky Lizzy Lizzie listens to her and I

5:09
get you know she's she's good and you know she's yeah she's really good and it's like but then all of sudden in the

5:16
middle of this is you know is this fresh beef Market you know you and it's like I

5:22
just I just don't see that person you know yeah I I don't always see the

5:29
connection it's like that person doesn't strike me as a cattle ranchin type person but then again she's out of Texas

5:36
it could very well be very applicable but it's like yeah I I guess it's just

5:42
that's what I look at it's like I don't you know how do how do did she just want some fresh beef some one day and said

5:49
wow I'm gonna contact this company or is it a matter of the other way around

5:54
right and now I'm putting this out here and it's like they send me my state for

6:00
free yeah but now I'm advertising them right and it's like that's that's the

6:05
part that I I guess I just don't think of anything that I can endorse

6:12
necessarily that I'm currently using but I realized everything's that

6:17
bad that you use no well you know shop at uh shop at

6:23
Walmart and ALDI you know so it's like they already have those uh they already have those markets so why would they

6:30
need a further Market but I also realized there you know I've thought about it in all honesty as you know we

6:37
Chris and I think about you know sparrows Nest that kind of thing you know and what's up next for us you know

6:44
sell I'm we're selling eggs now you know and it's like there may be a time where it's like you know goats milk that kind

6:51
of thing beef and that kind of thing but it's still that that's part of who we're

6:58
we are becoming you know what I mean so it's not necessarily yeah you know that

7:03
would be an interesting new uh podcast ad selling eggs if you're a local right now even at

7:11
53 I don't have enough eggs to keep up with our 53 listeners

7:19
with our 53 listeners yes uh you know the thing about that beef ad to

7:26
me it's obvious to me that it's just uh an ad yeah and so it's for me once Those

7:35
ads become that way there's kind of a clean separation between okay I know this is the business end of the podcast

7:41
right like get this done get back to what you're saying I don't put any Credence into that ad based on you being

7:49
a part of it no I hear you now there are a lot of podcasts that have ads where

7:54
the the host record something about the the product yep and and you know they're

8:00
they're generally pretty kind to the product you know sure and it's very

8:05
difficult to know do you like this product because you got it for free and they're paying you to to have this conversation

8:12
which I don't think that's a bad thing either I just want to know like is it's a good product or not it's hard to know

8:18
yeah based on that ad would you have purchased a Sleep Number BET right you

8:23
know just because you want to Sleep Number bed that's kind of the thing yep

8:29
but but here's the thing no probably not right but if they called up and said we'll send you a Sleep Number B all we

8:36
want you to do sleep on it you know if you like it if you feel good about it we'd love for you to mention it on your

8:41
podcast whatever yeah would you do that right would you I kind of like the mattress I have

8:48
right now I'll be honest with if you really like that sleep number B I would probably be willing to try it but see

8:56
here's the other thing if I didn't like it right then I'd have to be able to say

9:04
that no this is a lousy thing and granted there goes that would you would you would you would you is that what we

9:10
would communicate to them I I would communicate that that's that's what I would I mean yeah are you will get

9:17
review either direction yes that would be for this free bed like like does it

9:22
keep my feet warm at night right okay yeah it does that well does it adjust do

9:28
I feel it just well to my body n I'd just soon have my old you know whatever

9:34
microfoam or what's the memory foam memory foam topper you know I miss my memory foam topper and whatever you know

9:41
that kind of thing yeah yeah because it and I and I I understand where you're

9:47
coming from too it's a marketing thing I'm not coming from anywhere I'm asking yeah no no that's what I'm saying well

9:53
you know I understand the separation don't get me wrong and I guess and here

10:00
again whether it's a podcast whether it's television the the advertising is the

10:07
part that just frustrates me yeah because I'm into the story I want to know I I I'm

10:14
impatient uh you know I won't necessarily say that that but it's like

10:20
I guess I'm I'm at a point where I'm frustrated by

10:25
advertising because it seems as if it is as a as a thought it seems as if it's

10:33
invading more and more of my life through you know even The Limited Facebook that I even do you know right

10:40
yeah you know that I think that's the that's the overarching thing is like yeah and a big part of that is because

10:46
of a free culture right like yeah Facebook's free these podcasts are delivered to you free like there's a lot

10:53
of things that are free but they're not right like they're paid somehow and yeah

10:58
um I I I think I think at where I'm at my life it's just become an understood

11:04
part of what we what we have right like it part of culture it's the tradeoff I

11:10
don't have to pay for the subscription to this podcast but I'll pay for it with those ads and I can fast forward them or

11:17
whatever and you and I'll do that when I can and when I can't you know annoyingly listen or whatever yep and like for me

11:25
have just accepted it yeah um that being said again I don't have an opinion about

11:31
whether we should or shouldn't I think it's it's interesting to have this conversation and I would love if we

11:37
could not do it yeah that would be cool if we could say we're podcast that doesn't do ads so what does that mean y

11:44
click here if you want to support us or whatever yeah maybe that's an that I don't know like what what are your thoughts on

11:49
that click here if you want to support us sure or yeah I guess promoting certain ways to promote to support us or

11:58
and and here again that would be where I'd come back and say you know do we need support at this point and because I

12:07
mean I think a a week you know I can pull we can pull that out of what we're

12:12
currently doing would it be nice to be able to pull back to be able to have a

12:17
resource to you know add to so that you yeah you

12:23
can simplify a little more instead of doing this and three other things you

12:28
know yeah I suppose there's something to be said for that but yeah like if there

12:35
was an opportunity for this to be career you know I mean obviously I know what

12:41
you got going on with other things but if you're able to put one of those things aside right yeah yeah one of the

12:46
12 things Mark does he's like you know I think this 12 thing I'm gonna trade for podcasting because it can support uh you

12:54
know me and my family but you know obviously at that point something's got to you know money's got to be coming in

13:00
somehow right exactly so I that would be the question do you see do you see that

13:06
kind of a potential I give you B uh

13:11
desire like uh you know something that you would aspire to an interesting

13:17
Prospect and see at that point what does it look like yeah right and I'm not sure

13:23
I've developed all a b and c sure is it something that would be cool if it

13:29
happened sure um am I putting my eggs in that basket right I'm probably not yeah I

13:37
mean just I mean this is great I enjoy the time I enjoy the opportunity and I

13:44
and the the neat thing I think part of it for me um is the more we do this the more I'm

13:54
mindful of what we put out yeah you know the M the stewarding of the time other

14:02
people's time is what we put out valuable yeah and I and I think that in

14:08
some ways is counter to the advertising part for me is it seems as if it

14:17
cheapens that's the word I'm going to use at the moment without a better word

14:23
um what we're putting out there because we've made it convoluted to a certain

14:30
degree yeah and that's and I think that's where it comes back to to where yeah if if this can take off and do

14:36
something kind of on its own and I realized there there again that's a part of who I am something out of nothing

14:44
Miracle type thinking but I'm not saying that can't happen but I also re realize

14:49
that's not the typical model you know yeah and I think it could happen I I

14:58
don't think it's a matter of can we make something out of nothing because I believe the two of us have what it take

15:06
you know assuming all you know nothing tragic happens that we could do it I believe we could build it I I don't I

15:13
believe that's true um what I I think the difference is

15:18
growth I think the difference is you know opportunity I think the difference is um time you know um you know if we

15:28
have the resources what more can we do how much quickly more quickly can we grow it or or or you know introduce it

15:37
to more people and and whatever that to me is is the difference so in that help

15:45
me understand because I re I realize you are very generous when it comes to putting Mark Pratt and Justin when I

15:52
realize this is this is part in all honesty though this is something you've

15:57
invited me into based on a a a dream or a desire on your part that I might not

16:04
have had but after hearing your heart your desire it's like yeah we can do

16:11
this and I'm willing to be a part but I mean in all honesty I would need help understanding

16:21
how that can be made in the process because I think you have more of a

16:27
fundamental understanding than I do yeah yeah I mean I work on the internet so

16:34
yeah so that's a big part of it well I mean I work on the internet but I also read a lot by creators you know this

16:42
whole genre of creators online and that can be YouTube creators okay that can be

16:48
bloggers that can be podcasters that can be um thought leaders you know like yeah

16:55
this this huge genre right of people who create and they use the internet as

17:01
their Forum right sure um and one thing that is generally true I would almost

17:07
say universally true is if you keep working at it the the audience will be

17:12
built you know what I mean because it's it's hard to even explain

17:20
but as long as you care and as long as you're putting effort into it and as long as you're consistent you will find

17:27
an audience the world is that big and the internet is that big that the

17:33
audience will come in 53 you know we have 53 listeners maybe more today maybe

17:39
54 um you know like that seems like a lot to me but of course it's not it's a

17:46
drop in the bucket right um and right now we're tapping into our you know

17:52
local you know you know people that know us right um eventually

17:59
that it will grow and it will grow to people we don't know gotcha if we care to just keep producing and be consistent

18:06
and publish on a regular basis and promote it wherever we can you know that kind of thing sure it will grow um and

18:13
then you put even any amount of effort into it you know whether it's advertising in other words advertising

18:19
us elsewhere or sure I got you or cross promotion with other podcasters whatever

18:25
that like put any amount of effort into it like it increase that exposure

18:31
exposure influence if you will y yeah no and and that and that in itself

18:37
you know I think it is that aspect of the consistency yes you know just

18:44
continuing to do the thing that you feel passionate about doing I can understand

18:49
that because I'll be honest that part of me this says okay there are how many how

18:55
many podcasts would you say are out there in I heard the figure the other day and he was like why are we doing

19:01
this and see and and it's not that I'm there but when I think about it from a

19:08
num perspective it's like let's let's be I'm

19:13
just GNA be honest and transparent to that degree I'm sure there are people

19:18
out there who began like we did or we have and it's like with this amount of

19:26
effort and they've they've they've put all the effort in and they've tried to Resource and yet their listenership has

19:36
not necessarily increased it's gone the other direction and I don't even necessarily who I am I don't even

19:42
necessarily like to talk like that you know from a negative right right right growth perspective well it's reality

19:49
right yeah yeah I guess so no

19:54
I I am not saying it's impossible for us to fail okay I hear you uh that's not

19:59
what I'm saying uh I guess what I'm saying is with the amount that we care right now I don't believe we'll fail I

20:06
believe there's a certain amount of effort there's certain amount of I guess if we're terrible you know

20:14
right like there's a certain amount where you just can't compensate with hard work right sure but I believe very

20:20
strongly in hard work and most of the stuff that I've read over the

20:25
last 20 years has been about how hard work Trump's talent I hear right and so

20:32
so that's kind of where I'm coming from you barring a lack of hard work a lack of passion or something tragic or just

20:39
change of heart and we just don't care about it as much as we used to and we don't you know we kind of barely show up

20:45
you or you know we do our best but our best is is just not that great right

20:50
yeah um then I believe it absolutely believe it could fail or just not grow

20:55
like you think I like that other use of the word it's like it wouldn't be a failure right as far as I'm concerned to

21:02
having had this time I agree yeah and yeah yeah in the in this in the

21:09
podcast world you know it would no longer cease to exist typ you know but

21:16
yeah and and I I appreciate you sharing from that perspective because that's where I'm that's probably more where I'm at

21:23
and I at times I respect your experience there sure because you know as others

21:32
have listened or will continue to listen you are the the technical Dynamic of

21:37
this podcast but you're the brains well no I'm just I'm just the other chair it's an important other chair Mark

21:45
okay I'm happy to be I'm happy to be the other chair I mean I listen to our podcast Mark and you know the parts I

21:51
like it's the part where Mark was talking I'm like you know this guy's got something going on I like this guy I

21:58
should follow this pod and then I show up well it's a good thing this other guy's on this show it's a good thing

22:05
Justin has heart Justin has heart and the technical skills and the technical

22:10
skills oh man no but either way yeah but so much more than that yeah I

22:18
do I do value that that Insight I guess

22:23
it's not just a technical end it's the it's the intelligence I do

22:29
you yeah yeah and vice versa well I'd prefer the word wisdom over intelligence

22:35
because I know I'm just not that smart but I've learned a few

22:40
things sometimes by the wrong methods but yeah I mean this is the whole topic

22:46
what's the difference between smart and intelligence and wisdom but I think wisdom generates intelligence I mean

22:52
wisdom sure if you have wisdom you don't need quote unquote intelligence because

22:57
it's implicit but it doesn't hurt you're right uh what you said about

23:04
failing made me think of this recent article I read on farum Street blog

23:09
which is a really interesting um blog that I follow two mindsets huh yeah two mindsets it's basically the the fixed

23:16
mindset versus the growth mindset and the fixed mindset is it's uh like

23:23
um fixed rigid yeah yeah but you know when when when you think feel like your

23:29
opportunities are limited right yeah um I was thinking of that scarcity scarcity

23:34
yes scarcity mentality scarcity mindset yeah yeah and uh the growth mindset is

23:39
kind of the opposite of that where scarcity mindset is like oh crap I gotta get what's mine it looks like it's

23:45
disappearing I gotta grab it whatever and it looks at failure as just that like I missed out yes I failed I where

23:54
the growth mindset is very much about looking at failure and you talked about I I don't think this would you know you

24:00
wouldn't feel like this was a failure if we ceased to record sure and I agree completely because I mean grow mindset

24:07
that's right I have a growth mindset Mark uh but no absolutely I believe in

24:12
that idea of like this didn't produce nothing you know yeah even if no one got

24:17
anything out of it you know for between the two of us it certainly has been kind of eye opening and and and fun yeah

24:26
enjoyable and I think part of that is what I was coming back to the the

24:31
opening mind part is to realize how I think when you think about

24:37
it from the two mindsets scarcity and what was the other one oh growth grow

24:42
yeah that opportunity to be able to say okay um I can still learn from this

24:48
experience and I'm growing through it and it may not have matched my

24:56
expectation but yeah something occurred and it was valuable and yet I want to recognize my

25:05
desire from if I may my growth perspective is I want it to be

25:11
valuable I want this time to be valuable to everyone who invest their time to

25:17
listen to us and I and I think that's where you know things that have become

25:22
more aware of since doing this it's like our words are important you know they're

25:28
nuclear it's not that what goes out just stops when the wave stop sound wave

25:34
stops you know and so I want to be I want to be promoting value in what we do

25:41
and that's not to say that we can't have fun it's not that everything in you know my family's biggest concern is that I

25:47
could become heady you know and so every every session is

25:53
intelligence it's just me telling the same old story over and over again thinking it has uh that is important to

25:59
somebody's life but no but to the point of recognizing yeah finding that balance

26:06
of entertaining fun

26:12
informative and and still beneficial to some degree offering

26:18
hope you know offering small insights over a time that

26:25
say okay yeah this is this is a valuable resource this is this is a good use of

26:31
my time yeah is every is every episode going to be Stellar I think that's what

26:37
that's the part where I wrestle with it's like no likely there's going to be

26:43
some flops that we record and we put them out there yeah you know because it

26:48
seemed important at the moment but see I uh in response to that yeah right yeah

26:56
by way first of all I agree I agree the thing that I take issue with

27:04
and take issues too strong yeah but I'm good with it the pressure because I don't know that I'm

27:11
convinced in and of myself I can produce value that often that regularly and that

27:18
consistently for our listeners I think that is a little beyond my capabilities

27:23
to control I hear you um but what I believe is

27:31
that I don't believe when we talk that it's worth nothing no M no matter what

27:36
the conversation is because again especially with the specific idea behind the podcast when we talk about the

27:43
things that we maybe don't agree with but talk about it in a simple way that produces some different perspective in

27:49
each of us that's valuable you know yeah it's valuable

27:54
for for hey we have a soundtrack now

28:02
exactly I bumped the play button on my uh my music so um but anyway so yeah

28:08
that that's the thing that that gets me a little like squirly is like oh crap Mark wants us to produce value every

28:14
time we me oh man I think he's got the wrong co-host yet no and and and I and

28:20
I'll tell you exactly where that comes from for me I think as a

28:25
therapist that's that's behind I'll be yeah as a as an

28:32
expectation when people come into my office it's like I at the end of that 50

28:41
minutes my desire is to have

28:47
created the created an opportunity to where the resources they give me are

28:54
even if not more so in their favor that have spent they have received far more

29:00
than they've spent yeah that's my hope that's my that's what drives me as a

29:07
therapist because I'm I want to be a steward yeah well I know some of our

29:13
people are listening while they're mowing the lawn so they're not giving us a whole lot yeah and that's okay too I think

29:20
that becomes a part of my growth and my learning yeah and I think that's where

29:28
I'll be in that as we think about which

29:33
podcast we're doing next or what we want to the next podcast to look like that's

29:39
the part that I wrestle with most yeah because and that's probably that's the

29:45
that's the concern my family has in that is like you know the same concern or the

29:51
inverse concern where there no it's it's the same like that we do something of

29:56
value no no no that that in other words their

30:01
concern is that I get so caught up in the value so theirs is their concern is

30:07
the inverse of yours there yours is your concern is the value theirs is that you're gonna put too much yes stock

30:14
their their concern is the same perspective as yours I got that it doesn't get heady yeah each time because

30:23
I'm concerned about having value and life transformation and and insight

30:29
given and and granted I can back away from that in such a way but I'll be honest

30:36
when we talk about fun it's like okay where's the meat in that you know that's

30:41
that's kind of my perspective and but I also have to realize that yeah for

30:47
podcasts to have you know value I think you have to have that balance to where

30:55
and and and that's not to say that we can't bring hum and lightness to heavy topics as well

31:02
you know we could talk about ideally probably we'll talk about depression but

31:07
can we you know talk about that in a way that adds some humor that adds some

31:13
levity yeah and and I think that's that's what there's just a lot that I'm

31:19
starting to think about as the way we interact with other people yeah and even

31:25
even now you know it's like I'm still so prize this is just personal like well so

31:30
let me pause you real quick remember what you're were going to say oh yeah sir no sweat I got it I got it we're

31:36
we're specifically talking about the fact that we just hit publish right so we've recorded some in the bank and

31:42
we've been waiting for this day get some stocked up for the day that we hit publish and I don't think either of us

31:49
really kind of knew what that would look like in terms of audience or you know feedback or whatever but we hit publish

31:56
last Wednesday and then yesterday the second one went live and it's been

32:01
really cool and just interesting to hear people say I listen to your podcast you're like oh oh you listened like CRA

32:09
what did I say you know like yeah it's it's brought some different thoughts some different perspective yes to how I

32:16
see it exactly all right so back to what you're saying that that's exactly what I

32:22
was it's like my initial I'm honestly surprised

32:28
when someone I know comes up to me and instead of saying hey Mark how are you

32:34
doing the first words I heard your podcast and it's like there's a part of me in my head it's like my podcast do I

32:40
have a podcast you know I mean it's that fresh it's like podcast oh yes that

32:46
thing that Jus and I do on Wednesday mornings now so Mark has been Googling how to ward off the paparazzi he's

32:54
really concerned about his the level of pain I I'm not that concerned but I'm

32:59
still surprised it's that new yeah to where I just that's the last thing you

33:06
know even the other evening ultimate you know um you know I had a young guy come up and say I heard your podcast you and

33:14
he you know he honestly said you and Justin seem to have a good rapport and I liked it and it's like wow that's a

33:20
20-some that liked our podcast okay Justin is right we can make

33:26
this happen now but yeah I think and and for me that is

33:33
encouraging yeah you know now now will that 20-some continue to listen at

33:39
episode 10 episode 15 hey 20s something are you

33:44
listening so there again we uh we had I

33:50
you you folks will really appreciate this we actually had a moment where it

33:55
guy Justin Sternberg said I hate computers maybe not quite at that volume

34:01
maybe not quite with that intensity but there was there was a little more uh hate in my voice but vitol but uh at

34:10
that point um we were talking about uh

34:16
having influence and you know the fact lost another segment just so everyone

34:21
knows the recording stopped apparently we're still newbies at this podcasting

34:27
thing so we needed we need bells and whistles that go off when recording stops and that way we know to stop

34:33
talking well I switched the patter right we've been recording it on my phone true

34:38
and today I said let's record on my computer on the website and it's stopped

34:44
right at 30 minutes in 1 second so I think maybe there's a limit there that I

34:49
didn't know about that doesn't exist maybe they're trying to conform us right

34:54
maybe they're injecting ads while while we're waiting no this is where you're supposed to put

34:59
at no I don't know um anyway you were about to talk about the 20s somethings

35:05
and but we talked about the uh the influence and the pressure that it seems

35:10
and I think you know we we continued that process to be able to

35:16
recognize the you had the two mindsets did you want to review those yeah well

35:22
so CU right so we were talking about the concern of having value with with every

35:29
episode and just making sure that that it has value and it makes me think of or

35:36
at least it made me think of the first time we talked about this the the the Paradigm or the the analogy in the book

35:42
Seven Habits for Highly Effective People where he talks about the difference between the circle of concern and the

35:47
circle of influence and so what he says is basically everybody has a circle of concern everyone cares about a certain

35:54
number of things in this world whether it's you know who's who's the president at this time or whether you know the

36:00
fact that Russia is attacking Ukraine or um you know whether social media is out

36:05
to get us all or whatever it is like there's certain or you know uh and we

36:10
also care about like our school or our state or whatever and those are all things that reside in our circle of

36:17
concern but we also have a much smaller Circle within that circle called the circle of influence and those are the

36:23
things within our realm of influence those are things that we actually have

36:29
access to be able to influence through one means or another sure and um I know you asked like what how do you get that

36:37
influence or whatever right the difference between influence and control is what I was asking about because I

36:43
think we can get those two mixed up at times and you know i' go ahead as far as

36:49
now now you fully understand where I was coming from with that question but yeah well yeah cuz we talked about how it is

36:57
an important distinction to make and not to misconstrue influence with control

37:03
because while I might have someone's ear it doesn't mean I can control what they're doing or should exactly of

37:10
course you know and but but but yeah just the fact that we have an opportunity to influence others is

37:17
important and uh what does influence look like well it looks like someone who's willing to listen to what I have

37:23
to say in one manner or another or or maybe they're not willing to have to listen what I have to say but they have

37:29
to because they're with an earshot or sure it's like your kids in the car on vacation yeah exactly you know captive

37:35
audience they have to hear you sing you know every song they have no choice that

37:41
um no yeah um exactly that and with this podcast I guess that would be my my

37:48
concern I hear you is that we would put too much um pressure to control our

37:55
circle of concern like every listen gets value when we just don't have that

38:00
guarantee of the influence um sure we but they're here right and but what we

38:06
do have control over is the conversation and and what we're able to talk about and that's why I very much value your

38:14
perspective on let's make sure we produce value whatever I I want that as well right and I think it's important

38:20
that we we have these conversations but for me I think a big part of the value

38:26
uh long-term is just for us to have these conversations especially in regards to

38:34
kind of our our our pet idea right of sure Bridging the Gap between two

38:39
polarized ideas or even when we disagree right um to be able to have the

38:45
conversation to where we kind of bridge the gap and understand each other a little bit better we gain some

38:50
additional perspective and it may not change my mind but it provides more Vision in my mind right yeah more

39:00
opportunity I think even like you were sharing did we get to that growth part of the difference between mindset growth

39:06
mindset I think so too and that's where I'm but I think some of that

39:13
is as as you were talking about that it reminded me that I want to of our

39:19
differences I guess is where cuz our this will be better B based on

39:27
the fact that you and I accept influence from one another to where you are that

39:34
person that will tend to want to add levity to some of the topics we discuss

39:39
making it fun and you know and and it still entertaining still valuable but

39:46
but fun because fun has value as well yeah you Pro probably also hate pumpkin

39:52
spice lattes I just don't drink anything

39:58
that's coffee related at all so you know I mean there's just people that are just droing know this is a miracle that we're

40:06
we're doing now but still that's I I understand you know there there were

40:11
definitely things in a from a construction World there were definitely things that I didn't do that didn't fit

40:17
in you know and drinking coffee was one of those I'll let you fill in the blanks for the others but you know just part of

40:23
who I am didn't fit that model but yet here again I think what's important is

40:30
that you and I can bring that and I think you know we used the analogy last

40:36
time you know the the being deep and still being able to have levity and come

40:42
up you know and recognized that that's probably part of our difference and we use the analogy as far as like swimming

40:48
underwater I'm comfortable swimming underwater and you know you're more comfortable as a bobber you know you I'm

40:54
the weight and bring us back up yeah I want to come back up you know and I think that's that's valuable as well and

41:03
you know it's it's good for me to be able to have that influence to say okay

41:09
you don't have to stay under you can you may want to you can choose to but at the

41:15
same time you can come up take a break and then and then we'll go back and yet

41:20
my if I were to be in perfectly honest it's like when I come up um my thoughts

41:26
are that we'll never get back to that depth again and you know and if if

41:31
that's where the work needs to be done at that depth then um my desire is to stay there and I think I I have to

41:39
be open to the fact that yeah it may be time for someone else to come

41:46
up I I think one thing that uh is fascinating to me or I think it's I

41:51
think you are good at holding your breath right like you're good at staying down and and

41:57
you know last time we talked about these maybe some others are better at than than they think or whatever sure but I

42:03
also think as a counselor like you are trained in that you you've practiced

42:08
you've held your breath longer and longer and longer you've trained yourself to be able to stay there and

42:14
but that is one of the things I appreciate about you is you you enable the bobbing right and sure um and you

42:21
talked about how that that's a good balance to you right to bring some levity to some of that dep than I would

42:27
argue the same which is even in our conversations outside of the podcast to

42:32
sometimes it gets to the point where I got a bob or whatever you know I tell a joke or whatever it is and I see you're

42:39
still down there holding your breath saying that's okay take your time maybe you give a token you know a little

42:44
chuckle I see some bubbles come up yeah yeah and I recognize in that moment okay

42:49
all right we're we're going to stay here and I'll come back down and I think there's value in that too like that

42:55
balance of not not to leave the moment like to come

43:00
back to it and accept that um I don't know just just like yeah there is

43:05
intimacy in those moments as well where it's like okay we're doing this still it's it's not too heavy for Mark I got

43:13
what I'm saying I do I do and so that's for me personally that's been refreshing

43:18
as well because I think in my experience in probably most people's years I mean

43:23
counseling maybe shifts it a little bit but most people don't want to stay that deep that long like it gets very

43:30
uncomfortable you need to catch your breath or maybe you're just tired of swimming you know yeah and so I think I

43:36
even find myself sometimes you know bobbing up saying hey is this you need some air you know kind

43:43
of thing and with you it's like no I'm good I'm staying here I'll wait for you it's like okay swim back down let's do

43:49
this you know and I think that was we describe that that's that's the benefit of doing relationship with other people

43:55
mhm because I think we do when we have these conversations we learn it's like okay there is a different way to do it

44:02
doesn't make what I'm doing wrong it makes what I'm doing Perfectly Natural to

44:08
me uh who doesn't want to breathe we like to breathe on a consistent basis

44:15
but yet I can still hold my breath and I think there's a lot of things like that

44:20
where you know the we have the we have a daily opportunity to challenge ourselves

44:27
do we want to still your choice still your opportunity but yet when we choose to I

44:35
think there is a growth that occurs and I think that's part of what we do in this discussion is I can learn to say

44:42
okay you don't have to stay at the bottom of the pool MH and you're learning to say okay I can hold my

44:48
breath just a little longer yeah not that you're not already mindful of that

44:53
no but you're right in the sense that our perspective there's growth right like to be able to say okay I can swim a

45:00
little bit longer than I thought and you to be able to say actually we can Bob a couple times and still get right back

45:06
down to that depth and not lose that like that's forever lost or whatever I

45:11
think there's growth in both directions right agreed yeah and hopefully that

45:17
extends through the airway you know this microphone into the internet's into someone's earbuds to where there's

45:23
growth over there too right yeah U and that's where the value part comes comes in as we grow that's the part

45:30
I'm hopeful for right that these conversations we have aren't

45:35
just just opportunities for you and I to grow and learn whatever but that they do extend into our listeners in one sense

45:43
or another because it it broadens perspective or it even again broadens the idea that you're

45:50
different and that's okay yeah and that explains some things about you that I

45:56
can now deal with in a better way I may not have to be like you exactly but I can now

46:02
look at you go oh yeah he does that because of that he does that because this is who he is and accept that and

46:09
that's a I mean how crucial is that in relationships um you know CL relationships and I think and I think

46:16
that adds to that growth mindset because I you know I do believe you know from my

46:22
perspective you know that no one's messed up you you know we're all

46:28
operating perfectly normally based on where we've come from and what we've experienced yeah so you know the fact

46:36
that you desire to Bob is perfectly yeah Justin because that's how Justin grew up

46:43
he he grew up with heavy things around him and go ahead go ahead just you know

46:51
we talked about in the humor episode we didn't get to some of the like the science stuff that I that I read about

46:58
it like the book that I read that we mentioned that podcast but there's a lot of science to where you can actually

47:06
enable people to swim longer if you let them Bob up a couple times right like it's like where levity for me personally

47:14
has enabled me to swim longer has enabled me to go deeper uh that balance

47:20
for me again personally has enabled me to do more than I could have without it sure and I think some of The Depths that

47:27
have been able to swim are a direct result of being able to have some levity like yeah give us

47:35
like an example Jus we talk about depression or you know that I can't remember if we recorded this part or not

47:41
but at some point we'll have an episode on depression and that will be very serious right you know doesn't have to

47:47
be but right we can bring some levity to that and I think for me like because I

47:54
the reason you know a big part of that is I've dealt with depression I work through depression it's something that comes and goes in my life and part of

48:02
the tool set that I have is levity is to look at it and say this is like it's not

48:11
this isn't the end of the world MH and to be able to step back from it when it's not in the middle of those episodes

48:18
to say it's a little bit funny how this happened or that funny or like be able to bring some levity into it and it

48:25
enables me to be able tackle it in a healthier manner if that makes sense sure I don't know that's that's one

48:32
example that I can think of but or another example is like I mean again you

48:39
have the experience here so you please correct me if I'm wrong but like in a tense situation between husband and wife

48:45
sometimes a little joke can allow them to stay in that moment right and versus

48:52
like this is getting heated this is this is and we have to stop because we can't

48:57
stay in this moment we have to get out we have to escape we have to breathe right where a little moment of humor uh

49:05
between the two that says you know that just a little twinkle in the eye can

49:10
shift the moment to where they can say okay we can stay in this and keep working at it right yeah but I think

49:17
even in that the twinkle in the eye is a break mhm you know what I mean in that

49:22
instantaneous moment it is a break something precedes the humor yes that basically says okay we're

49:30
okay you know we can I want you to be able to breathe and I want to be able to

49:35
breathe and yeah we can add some levity in this moment that says

49:41
okay this this two Shall Pass MH in such a way that says okay yeah we can take a

49:48
break and I think that's important to be able to recognize mhm so yeah I uh I

49:54
appreciate you sharing from that uh from your side of the the scenario and I

49:59
appreciate the uh yeah it and it it causes me to reflect on okay how am I

50:08
bringing more seriousness to life because that that was part of our first

50:14
podcast was that was recognizing when I I think first or second but either one it was about that aspect of I don't want

50:22
my life or my kid you know I sometimes take life too seriously especially where

50:29
my kids were concerned early on and I think you know and this conversation has given me that as an opportunity to say

50:36
okay yeah it's okay to come up yeah and yet balancing that with okay yeah there

50:43
part of my occupation is that ability to stay in that moment and yet am I am I

50:51
offering opportunity for people to come back up as they need to or am

50:58
I is my influence if you will at that moment to say okay we got to stay down

51:04
here so yeah that's just a that's just a a a thought for me to to to take away as

51:11
a growth Dynamic from today's podcast yeah and not just today I mean like you

51:16
said you've been it's it's interesting to hear you say this it's similar things

51:21
have been entering your mind in terms of your kids or whatever or unless you're saying it's a result of our

51:26
conversations but um but yeah yeah I

51:32
think yeah you go ahead that's all I have go ahead if you want by all means

51:37
no I just had a blank spot uh so contrary to what everyone thinks out there in the podcast world like we don't

51:45
script this you think there could do you think they don't know no I'm pretty sure they

51:50
thought we did cuz we're we're so good at not saying um or you know any we're still working on that let me tell you no

51:58
but we wrote those in we just have to write fewer of them in the SC oh is that one okay I'm with you now no so

52:04
sometimes I draw a blank and that just happened but uh so in this uh podcast we

52:10
had thought we'd wrapped up but uh as we recognized in the whole process of things we weren't quite done and uh

52:17
fortunately Justin and his wisdom kept the uh mic rolling so that's what you're uh we're continuing into at this point

52:27
you don't we don't have to talk like we're recording but might as well yeah

52:33
so what are your thoughts on that as far as editing goes uh yeah so in regards to

52:40
what I know I oh yeah well like with the school um yeah issue not the school

52:47
issue poorly stated things yeah do we edit out poorly stated

52:54
things I think it depends and so okay so another thing that I

53:01
wanted or that that's been interesting okay since publishing sure is putting

53:08
people's face in front of you know like behind our microphone right like oh that

53:14
person's you know ears are involved or whatever and so that's been good really

53:20
good yeah but I think it adds to that pressure as well it adds to pressure because then you think oh if if I talk

53:27
about this particular subject that might be a sore spot for that person or it might might be triggering and then I'm

53:33
like well crap I don't I don't want to trigger people you know I I want this to be enlightening not uh infuriating and

53:40
then uh so I I I definitely went through a period like a little episode of like

53:46
worrying about like oh all I imagined this to be was fun and levity and growth

53:52
and Enlightenment and then it occurred to me like a but worst still human and

53:57
will still be stupid sometimes maybe not you so much Mark but I know I'll put my foot in my mouth and but my unicorns and

54:05
rainbows aren't everybody's unicorns and rainbows that's true but but I can be completely uh generous towards your I

54:14
mean like I'll be like people will understand or but when I say stuff it's like they won't understand Mark well no

54:21
and that's where that's where I'm at I think that's makes it interesting I think it's good to include our wives too yeah

54:26
I mean but at the same time there's a part of me that says okay we we said it

54:33
yeah and in that moment it made sense yeah and I think there's a context and

54:39
yes you know might someone be offended but I think we have to be able to

54:45
recognize that yeah we could say unicorns and rainbows and somebody could

54:51
be offended right right it's mythical it's yeah because it's left to

54:57
interpretation what what do I mean by that but does that not invite the

55:03
further conversation and here again Lizzie brought up a great Point

55:11
um who's who I forget the cane lady's first name Christine Kane Christine Kane

55:17
he was she was talking about it from that aspect of

55:22
Truth Versus authenticity

55:28
and you follow me and I think you know in our day and age you know authenticity

55:35
says well that's just who I am and you you take me as I am and da da da da da

55:41
and the truth part of that is yeah we accept who you are but it doesn't mean that that's who you have to continue to

55:48
be and I think that's where offense mercy and Truth

55:57
you follow me MH I like I like what Jimmy does you know what is it Mercy

56:03
without truth is like a cheerleader without a team and truth without Mercy

56:10
is like operation without anesthesiology you know that kind of thing so I don't

56:15
want to be you know just all truth but at the same time I think you have to

56:20
have that mercy and Truth in such a way that's balanced and authentic MH

56:27
challenges people yeah it also like you know we talked about integrity and

56:33
duplicity yeah and it made me think about how around certain people again

56:40
certain faces come to mind as you see they like to post or maybe you know

56:46
commented saying I can't wait to listen or whatever it was or approach you in church or whatever it is and recognizing

56:53
that as much as I value integrity and not have having duplicity there are some things I would say in front of some

56:58
people that I feel weird about saying in front of others and recognizing there's still some duplicity there right there's

57:04
still some I don't know I mean I don't know if uh I think there's obviously value in

57:12
discernment and what you say to some people versus others I'm not saying that's not a thing but also recognizing

57:21
that that's important to to be to have that Integrity about what you believe

57:28
cuz what what we're talking about isn't light stuff I mean this is stuff that we've come to believe you know and to be

57:36
willing to state that to anyone whether it's again you know I talk about um the

57:41
church I grew up in a couple times in this podcast and recognizing there might be someone from that church that listens

57:48
because they know me from when I was young and um seeing that you know there could potentially be some offensive

57:54
things or or things that I disagree with that to talk about and just

57:59
understanding for me that that is important for them to understand who I

58:04
am like have that Integrity of that's this is the growth that I've achieved in my life and here's how

58:11
that came to be um and that's more important than not offending them if

58:19
that makes sense but that that's the balance I'm trying to learn right like those are things that I uh I care about

58:25
that you know I'm I'm working on like figuring out the right thing to care about if that makes sense no and I and I

58:32
think you know when you shared that part about um

58:38
pressure I think you know when we have that I'm not sure that's a beneficial

58:46
thing I think there's a responsibility yeah a

58:51
stewardship but I I think there is something to be said for you know

58:57
the truth as long as we're seeking that and to convey it will be offensive at

59:04
times we'll also be offensive sometimes because we said something we shouldn't true and I and as when you were saying

59:10
that earlier I was I was mindful of like uh like rush limau in the early days you

59:15
know he would just be offensive just for the sake of listenership yeah yeah you

59:22
know yeah I think I think it's part of who he is you know he was I should say

59:27
but you know it's like there again what's our model going to be

59:33
what's our what's our what's our Persona yeah going to be are we Desiring to be

59:39
offensive for the sake of offensiveness just to gain lead you know a

59:44
listenership that's not where I want to be right but yet at the same time you're also very much in the camp

59:52
of I don't want to gain leadership by not speaking the truth yeah like by by

59:57
covering up for things that might be offensive I don't want to increase our leader our listenership or following

1:00:05
whatever yes by covering those things up right I think that's what I'm hearing

1:00:10
yep from you and I authenticity still yeah with truth and I think you know you

1:00:17
talked about again authenticity authenticity is being is being real and sometimes we're

1:00:24
wrong when we're real that's I think that's part of this too is the growth of recogniz you know even in this podcast

1:00:31
to be able to say hey in this episode we said this and I don't think I agree with that I think I overstated that thing or

1:00:37
whatever yes I think that's we have an opportunity for an ongoing conversation and growth yeah and

1:00:45
so that's something even in that particular issue that I've been thinking a lot about like does it need to be

1:00:51
edited out or do we come back to it and say you know in this particular thing I

1:00:57
probably overstated something or said it in an incorrect way and and then in that

1:01:03
in that how soon do we do that I guess would be the other thing in this model right you it gets weird right because

1:01:09
yeah do we have to come to that does the does the next thing we record have to

1:01:15
include that Amendment if you will that or that apology that says hey you know

1:01:20
after listening to last week's we had to record this one you know because of yeah

1:01:26
so I think yeah yeah we can also always uh inject Snippets I mean yeah that's

1:01:34
the cool thing about editing episodes is we could record a one minute apology whatever stick it at the front and say

1:01:40
before we get to the episode Justin has to apologize again because he said another stupid thing no and yeah I I but

1:01:47
I hear where you're coming from we have that ability yeah yeah and I guess that's where I'm wrestling with how how

1:01:54
we use it when we use it as we need to use it yeah yeah another thing I really

1:02:02
like about one of the podcast I listen to uh as they do the armchair expert

1:02:07
I've talked about that yeah and for anyone who's listening to this podcast I don't recommend that podcast unless

1:02:13
you're yeah unless you're us and you want to get no connected to another podcast right I'm

1:02:20
just but but one of the things I like that they do is they they do a quote unquote fact check at the end of every

1:02:26
episode so they have the episode and the episode you know they celebrities they interview celebrities mostly and they'll

1:02:31
have a conversation with them through the course of an hour or whatever and then after the say it's time for the fact check you know it's the part where

1:02:38
you know the co-host fact checks the uh the person they interviewed as well as

1:02:44
most famously the the other host you know the celebrity basically saying you said some more stupid stuff here's why

1:02:50
you were wrong kind of yeah yeah and the intention was actual facts but it's

1:02:56
turned more into a yeah when we said that it was came off wrong or what it's

1:03:01
just a really it's one of my favorite parts of the podcast because it's the humanizing part right where well it's

1:03:08
the two parts are humanizing right because you see that mistake and you're like I don't know if I said that and then later for to hear them kind of go

1:03:14
back and forth and sometimes they have conversations like this like you're saying where should I have not said it

1:03:20
because that's really what I think and and to not say it would have been a lie

1:03:25
I'm not saying what I think is right but you know should we you know edit you know the whole idea of editing things out yeah um

1:03:32
so it's it's an interesting Dynamic and so I've thought about that too like how

1:03:37
I wonder if that's a thing we could incorporate how would that look what about the length of the episodes you know this the kind of the back and

1:03:45
forth I haven't landed anywhere but oh I hear you interesting yeah that is good Dynamic yeah yeah it makes yeah we're

1:03:54
thinking more than we were yeah that's that's the truth yeah and that's why I wanted to do this today I

1:04:01
was like man so much yeah yeah which I'm I'm going to stop

1:04:06
this test test test test on all right you want to scoot forward I can I

1:04:13
can scoochie scooch there you go we good did you want to redo or you want to test

1:04:19
I can I can clip all this oh yeah might as well

1:04:27
hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

1:04:33
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1:05:03
[Music]