Today is the continuation of the conversation we started last week about abortion, with our guest Sarah Hall. We appreciate her coming on How I See It to share her personal experience with abortion, and bravely offering encouragement to others who may be in a similar situation. We talk about the importance of offering love and grace to those who have had abortions, rather than judgment, and we discuss the need to have both political and personal conversations about abortion, and the importance of promoting change from within.
Show Notes
- Part 1 of this episode
- Where you can find Sarah:
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sapar800
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/__sarah.hall__
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/sarah_hall98713
- Tiktok: http://www.tiktok.com/@s.parkk
Transcript
Justin:
If you haven’t yet, be sure to check out part one of this episode with our guest Sarah Hall, available wherever you get podcasts.
Mark:
And I think that’s where it makes I appreciate what you’re sharing in that love and grace and still being able to say, okay, how can we create more supports for even I think so often, and we’ve talked about the people who use abortion as a form of birth control. I still think of what we’re able to do or not able to do in the sex trafficking world, because there’s no doubt abortion becomes a part of that as well, because there again, it’s not like those children or individuals have the ability to make even a choice at that point and that’s put upon them. And so my head’s just kind of spinning around this ability that we have to be able to help provide options for people who are in a place that I can’t even begin to understand.
Sarah:
Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking a lot, but my head mark does.
Justin:
That to me, too.
Sarah:
He does it to me all the time. It’s always good things, though. It’s always good, but he definitely gets you thinking. I just kept thinking about how I first started coming to Cr and how I got to see her in the first place. I had a boss of mine that I worked for for many years, and she was involved in Celebrate Recovery, and I was very much in my addiction at the time, and she had pulled me outside every single day and was just like, hey, you need to get your life together. There’s this place called Celebrate Recovery. It’s down the street. Just go. And she did that for a couple of years until I finally did go to Cr. And changing lives, changing minds. Yeah. Does stem from love, but it stems from relationship.
Justin:
Yeah.
Sarah:
And I think that’s the biggest impact that we can have as individuals is just that relationship to offer that support and that love and getting to know people on a personal level and to say, like, hey, this is your problem. I love you. Let’s figure this out together. You’re not alone in this. And I think that it really just.
Justin:
Stems from a relationship and that relationship to some healthy individual. Like a healthy relationship. Right. Because there might be a lot of people in their dysfunction saying, well, I got relationships all around me. I got my rider, die partners, that kind of thing. It’s like, maybe that’s not what we’re referring to when we say relationship.
Mark:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Thanks for that.
Justin:
Yeah, I agree with you 100%. And that’s a big part of what I love about Celebrate Recovery is we call it our forever family. Right. You kind of come to a place where it’s like there’s some acceptance and love within those walls that binds you in a way that feels like family, which is incredible. And that’s the kind of relationships we’re talking about, not the kind that accept you in your dysfunction. Because that codependent. I’ll accept your dysfunction. You expect there’s a song by what’s her name?
Mark:
I got it. I know it. Justin. No, I’m just joking with you.
Sarah:
Dolly Parton. No, I love Dolly.
Justin:
Okay. Got.
Sarah:
Throw that in there.
Justin:
Sarah loves Dolly Parton.
Mark:
There you go.
Justin:
I’m not going to try it’ll. Come to me later. But yeah, one of the things that broken people no. Yeah, it’s a good one, too.
Mark:
That’s what came to mind for me. I couldn’t tell you who wrote it.
Justin:
Either, but I got the melody in my head.
Mark:
Humble, humble little for us.
Justin:
Okay. No. As you were talking, Mark and Sarah, too, there’s a verse that talks about where will offer comfort with the comfort we’ve been given. And I’m actually going to read it because often we kind of summarize them, but it says, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort who comforts us in all our affliction. So that which is I think is so cool that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. Which is a mouthful, but essentially saying, like when we go through stuff, that stuff God often uses to help encourage others, which, again, I just want to reiterate, thankful for your bravery to talk about the subject. And I think this is an opportunity that you are doing that right. But in the situation of offering hope in that situation, a lot of times it’s going to be someone like yourself or someone who’s been comforted in that way. And I would speak to those who haven’t those who haven’t gone through that or haven’t come to that that close of making that decision, whichever side of that decision they fell on, to say maybe just chill, lead with love, lead with acceptance. Because I think another verse that came to mind my brain was just going and another verse that came to mind that I think often might be problematic for people in that situation is tama knows it’sin but doesn’t do it. Or something like, actually, I have that, too, because I didn’t want to butcher it. Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not to do it. And I think a lot of times we lead with that when we are trying to help others, like, well, I know that’s a sin, therefore you shouldn’t do it. That’s really not what the verse says. If you look at it, it’s talking about personal conviction. And so they might feel like, I personally feel convicted that abortion is a sin and I shouldn’t do it. But I think there are other verses you can show to say, well, here’s what God’s Word says about the womb inside your body and all that good stuff, and that’s fine. But again, often we leave from a place of conviction for our own lives, and we place it on someone else who doesn’t have those convictions. And what that ends up doing is creating distance. And so you create a deficit in relationship, right? So instead of bonding in a relationship of understanding and support, you’re actually separating yourself. You’re creating a greater division. You’re creating a me versus you. And you do things wrong, I do things right. That relationship aspect, that is part of that healing balm of love and grace kind of disintegrates, I think, when you lead with those things. But again, in that loving, gracious place of saying, I can’t imagine whatever, that doesn’t mean there’s not opportunities to speak the truth. And by the truth, I don’t mean what I believe, but I can say. Well, here’s some verses that maybe you can use to consider as you prayerfully consider this decision. Yeah, I don’t know my brain.
Mark:
And I appreciate that because I’ll be honest, that whole verse where Jesus I think Jesus calls that out in us because there is this moment where he enters I think it’s Paul’s house. Paul, he has the discussion, basically, he entered one of the disciples homes. And that’s when the woman comes in and wets his feet with her tears and wipes it and anoints his feet. And he shares that verse of, I came into your home, you didn’t even wash my feet. She wet my feet with her tears. That kind of thing. The person who’s been forgiven much, loves much. And that’s why I see in you, Sarah, in that aspect of being able to recognize that you recognize that you’ve been forgiven. There’s been this process, and you’re able to share that in a way that says, I desire to love more people and bring love to people because of what I’ve experienced. And I think that’s the way you’re sharing that in that sense of he has been forgiven much. And I think so often what you’re referring to in that difference is we don’t always recognize how much we’ve been forgiven. Yeah, you follow me. And I think that’s the beauty of it. When we can recognize that, no, we’ve all been forgiven much, it’s just my job to recognize that. And I think, as you shared, you wrestled with that. And I think that has, if anything, ignited that love that you have in return for who God is based on that wrestling, that pain you went through, and recognizing that the grace still abounds even more. And that ignited your love for him or promoted that love for him in a way that nothing else could have. And so that’s kind of where I was as the verses were coming, and the mind goes. And I think I appreciate your willingness to share that in a way that is conveying love to other people. Does that make sense?
Sarah:
Yeah. Thanks for that.
Mark:
Oh, no problem.
Sarah:
To be forgiven much, we have to mess up a whole lot. Yeah, and we’ve all messed up a whole lot. Like what you said and going back to abortion, there’s no other sin that really compares to it. All sin is equal in the eyes of God. Absolutely. But when it comes to a human suffering, there’s really no comparison to that. And what mentally and physically you go through is kind of what I’m referring to. But I guess a good way to kind of think about it is for somebody that hasn’t had an abortion, that hasn’t had a personal connection to it, and is just looking at it maybe politically or spiritually or emotionally, and try to think of your worst sin that you’ve ever done, the thing that really tears at you inside. And now try to think of when you went to somebody to say, hey, I got this struggle, I got this sin that I got going on. And they didn’t accept you with love, they came at you with you’re going to hell, you’re doing the wrong thing, this is bad. And let’s say that you weren’t even a believer at that point. Is that going to make you believe in God? And I think that goes back to what you were saying, is that ultimately bringing people to God is the ultimately goal that we all have here. And hate doesn’t generate that and love does. And it’s hard, especially with abortion, because it is such a heavy topic to put our own feelings aside and to generate and show that love. It’s hard to do, especially when it’s somebody that you care about, or maybe it’s even your own spouse, it’s hard to put your own feelings aside. But I think we have to a lot of the times to show that love, especially if you have such strong feelings of your own convictions, of how you feel about that. And change of heart and mind, only comes when we want it to change. And I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve never ran to something when I felt like I wasn’t loved by it.
Mark:
Is that part of that dynamic? And I realize you recognize it as a continuum and is that part of what keeps you, if I may say so, on that choice side of halfway, if you will, because as you described it, I’m seeing your shift more towards center. And yet if we would maybe at 50% and 50%, there’s going to be a choice where I’m really wrestling with that dynamic of life versus choice. I’m seeing you as close to the center and still on the choice side. Is that more about what keeps you on that side? Is just that aspect of that ability to recognize a person needs to have that acceptance to be able to choose?
Sarah:
Yeah, I would say so. I think spiritually and more now, emotionally and mentally, I have more sides that are in the middle and probably leaning towards the other side. And politically, I’m more pro choice. And I just think that when we have heavy opinions on one way or the other, there’s no room for a compromise for people that don’t believe another way. So we’re all believers in this room, but a lot of this country is not. And if we’re saying that this is what we want in this country and in our laws and it’s based off of what we believe spiritually, when we have free choice as a country to believe what we want to believe and I do think that our politicians need to answer to a higher power. Absolutely. But we also get a free choice of what that higher power is that’s part of America. And it’s hard to say this is what it should be because this is what I believe based on my religion. I think if we want to be able to say that we have to change hearts and minds and bring people to God instead of just throwing what we believe and what the Bible says at them if they don’t even believe it because that means nothing to them, those words are just words. If they don’t have a basis in what they believe, if that makes sense, sure.
Justin:
Yeah. Like a moral position.
Mark:
We come off judgmental in that dynamic. Sure.
Justin:
I also think you’re drawing a pretty in my in my mind, a pretty clear distinction. So there’s basically two things we’re talking about. We’re talking about relationship. We’re talking about someone’s in front of me dealing with this decision. And I think that’s one of these things that we’re talking about and I think that’s largely what we’ve been talking about is that relationship, love, grace. But I think there’s also this distinction of that and then what we’re talking about now, which is kind of the political position. Right. And I do think those by nature will always be different and that’s acceptable, you know what I mean? And if I’m ever around someone that’s going through this decision, I’m going to take this conversation into that. Right. And I’m going to do my darndest to show love and grace. Absolutely right. That’s how I will be. And I wanted to be in it. I’m not going to look at them and do that whole sinner thing. And that being said, politically, that doesn’t mean that I’m now backed off of my position of believing that when you do that, it’s wrong and therefore we should. I’m sure you’ve heard arguments on both sides. I don’t know how much you’ve if it were me, I’ll just be honest and say I’d probably avoid that subject if I had an abortion because I don’t need all the talking points. Again, that’s me personally. So I don’t know where you fall on that. But what I would say is there’s a lot of non religious reasons that we could make a case for that. Abortion is wrong, right? So some scientific ones, all that kind of stuff. And then it kind of depends on the subjective nature of how you read that science. Well, what does that mean? And all that kind of stuff. Long story short, I guess what I’m saying is there is the opportunity there for everyone to have some political beliefs and decisions and kind of the way that they support. And there are going to people who feel very strongly about these things and work very hard to change these things because they believe it’s right. Not because of what God said, but believe it’s right in the grand scheme of things. And in that case, it’s kind of the same reverse grace. Like, I have to trust that God’s doing something in their life and they have a reason for that position, really? On both sides, sure. But it’s not up to me in the same way. It’s not up to me to sit there in judgment over someone dealing with that decision. It’s not for me to sit there in judgment over someone’s political position, why they came to that and why they believe that, why they are whatever they’re doing about that. Some of us are passive in our political beliefs, like me, and some of us are more outgoing and we’re posting on social media. We’re doing all these things. I think that grace should go in reverse too, right? Like, they’re clearly coming from a position where they feel very strongly about this and it could be as simple as they had an abortion and they’ve come full circle, right? Like, God’s convicted them and then it’s kind of that to him. Who knows what’s right and doesn’t do it? So now they’re kind of like, this has to change. The system’s broken. We got to make it so that’s no longer an option. I can get that. You know what I mean? Anyway, I guess all of this was just to say I do think there’s two conversations here and they’re both important to have. And I think if there was a takeaway from this, I wouldn’t want it to be the political stuff. That conversation is kind of secondary and interesting, but I think the more important conversation is to say real life. Like, do you know someone who’s been through this, who’s heading towards this? And how can you interact with that person in a way that’s healthy and creates that relationship? If that can come out of this episode, to me that’s a much bigger win than right or wrong, political or like the political side of things. But I do think it’s important to talk about the political side of things because that’s what drives a lot of the judgment and two sided thing.
Mark:
And I think it’s interesting because Sarah kind of brought that up a little earlier too. She mentioned the fact, well, some of these things that I’d like to see, we’re not going to change in this room. And yet there’s a part of me that can disagree with that in such a way that says no. When we’re having conversations with people, we can promote that bigger change in a way, just in a grassroots level, one person at a time type thing, whether it’s a person that hears the podcast or whether it’s a person that we are after talking with you personally, more convicted about offering support to people that we might not have offered support to. And I think that in and of itself, not arguing the point, but just being able to recognize, no, there’s definitely some change and we may tend to underestimate the change that us being honest and being vulnerable even can promote outside of this room just by that interaction. So, yeah, by all means. It was just one of those things that triggered a thought for me. It’s like, I think Sarah can promote more change from inside this room than she may even realize.
Justin:
Thanks for that.
Mark:
Yeah.
Sarah:
But yeah, no, I agree with the ripple effect. That’s very much a thing. I think what I was referencing we’re not changing any laws today, but no, I definitely agree with that, that little things can generate big change.
Mark:
Sure.
Sarah:
And it starts with one person.
Mark:
Yeah. So was there anything else? We’re probably getting close on time. I see Justin looking there a little bit. Was there anything else that you would like to specifically share about just your experience? She went to the back side of.
Sarah:
The page, just making sure I touched the topics that I had written down.
Mark:
And that’s why I’m asking, because I want you to be able to offer that.
Justin:
Yes.
Sarah:
Yeah, I think I’ve pretty much touched everything I got. But just in general, I think a big thing that I just wanted to come here and say is just promoting love, which I think I’ve touched on that and just realizing that change isn’t going to happen overnight. And change comes from within, but also comes from the people next door and the people that are around us. And we can touch our lives and that we all have the ability to touch each other’s lives. And that starts with our choices and our actions and how we decide to impact others. Because we could have a negative impact on others. Absolutely. And there’s a good chance that we probably will. We will always make mistakes, we will always have our own problems, but all we can do is try to be better and to learn from our mistakes and to use those mistakes to help others. And I think that was just the big message that I wanted to come across and how I wanted to take this approach.
Mark:
Sure. No, and as I was thinking about in that trying, recognizing that if we’re doing that in and of ourselves, if we’re trying in and of our own strengths, we are going to probably end up frustrated and yet being able to recognize that through Christ and his transforming power, change becomes more hope filled than hopeless. Based on my circumstances. And I realize we’re talking about that from a spiritual dynamic at that point. But I think so much of, as you shared at the very beginning, it is so much of what we wrestle with is this spiritual, emotional I think all those things that you mentioned that really kind of grip us, where we’re at have that spiritual, emotional, physical context that it’s just complex. It’s the things that aren’t necessarily connected to everything that seem to be able to kind of create change. But when it’s really complex and complicated yeah. That’s when it’s difficult. And I appreciate what you’ve shared in that process of going through that difficult, complex journey. Appreciate you sharing that with us.
Sarah:
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate this.
Mark:
No problem.
Sarah:
Awesome. And just for you guys willingness to have this conversation and to just put this out there and to have somebody that you knew that had different views than you and have a lot of respect for that.
Mark:
Happy to do so. Yeah, I mean, really truly happy. It’s been one of those conversations we’ve had. It’s like, this is a polarizing topic, so how do we begin to address this? So we appreciate your willingness to help us begin that process. Yeah.
Justin:
Sharing how you see it.
Mark:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Thank you.
Justin:
In this second half of the episode, mark and I discuss a bit about her chat with Sarah and just share a little bit more of our thoughts about this subject and the conversation we had there. We hope you enjoy this little bit of a recap. Yeah, well, have been, I think, two parts of Sarah sarah hall talking about abortion, which, man, I’m just personally very thankful that she’s willing to share from her personal story. Number one, this topic of abortion is extremely polarizing. Excuse me.
Mark:
No doubt.
Justin:
Right. Like, when we talk about polarizing topics, this is one that is so polarizing. We said we’re not going to touch it unless there can be somebody who can talk about it, who has some experience.
Mark:
Right, sure.
Justin:
So, number one, just bravery for being able to share her story from that place, even at the risk of potentially feeling judged by even us or anyone listening. Right. So I just appreciate her being willing to do that. Also very, I guess, appreciative of the opportunity to have what we talk about right. Have a conversation. Sure. And kind of talk about her perspectives in ours and kind of do that in a respectful way. I think that’s what I really enjoy about this podcast is really what I enjoy about what I’m learning from this podcast is how to do that right. And do it in a loving way. And what are your thoughts, Mark?
Mark:
Well, at the same time, I think we want to recognize with this podcast as we add it to it’s not a desire to we will value what Sarah did and it’s not a desire to talk about it in a way that is contrary to her without her being here to represent herself. But the reality of it is there was so much that came out of it that we thought we could add to the discussion a little more, especially in the topics of where politics are concerned and the ability to have that conversation as we talk about. And I think so often part of those groans that you mentioned and some of it is the difference between conversation and debate. Because I think so often we’ve lost our ability to just actually listen to someone without having to say, well, what about in that process that says you need to see it from my perspective versus our ability to just listen to someone, anyone, about a topic and be able to even just hold our own thoughts. Because I realize probably even in the process of the podcast, there are oftentimes when people might say, well, why didn’t you say this? Or why did we get that? In certain topics, even outside of abortion or politics or stuff like that, why didn’t you say this? Or Why didn’t you say that? And it’s like because there’s a difference at times between being able to enter into a conversation and the desire to have a debate and have to express our differences. And I think in some cases that was another aspect that I appreciated about the podcast, that ability to be able to just enter into relationship with someone, even knowing that we might have a different viewpoint.
Justin:
Yeah, your two things kind of go hand in hand. A couple of things you just said, the ability to have a conversation that doesn’t require correcting or at least making my position known, kind of goes hand in hand with building and maintaining a relationship. Sure. No one really enjoys being in a relationship with somebody who’s always arguing or trying to convince or whatever. And so there’s got to be some room for listening, right, just listening. And also why don’t you say this? Why don’t you whatever? Well, because with 45 minutes to an hour and a half, you can’t say all the things. And in this case, I think we very much enjoyed having the opportunity to listen as well and kind of hear from her perspective. Because I don’t know about you, Mark, but I definitely heard some things in her perspective that I hadn’t considered before. Like some perspectives and just being able to kind of walk over to put myself in her shoes and go, oh, I kind of see that now, where before I could honestly say I’ve never considered that position or that concern.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And that kind of thing. Yeah, I think that’s part of it too. Is there’s time limits in relationship. And I liked that. We did talk about that in the episode about kind of the difference is between kind of the relational aspect of abortion and right being involved in relationship with someone who’s in the midst of figuring that out, whatever that looks like versus kind of the overarching theme, political theme of abortion and kind of how it splits sides in two and that whole thing. So any thoughts about that, Mark?
Mark:
No. I was thinking about it, too, in that what you shared previously was just how well it becomes divisive and we get tired in relationships where people say, well, did you think about that? Did you think about that? And it becomes tiring. And when we’re able to enter into a conversation that basically says, okay, yeah, just help me understand where you’re coming from. And I think in the process and I was thinking about it in the context of things we were aware of, I think in conversation, we can be surprised sometimes. And I think coming into an interview like as we’ve done before, there are those surprises that come along the way, and it’s like, oh, I didn’t necessarily realize you saw it that way. And I think that has the ability to deepen relationship because we’re able to see something different. And I think that was there, again, to kind of share your point. What stood out to me was the ability to recognize that as different as my view is from someone, their view makes perfect sense based on where they’re at and where they’ve come from and vice versa. Yeah. To be able to say, okay, yeah, that was one thing that I learned from Sarah, you know, is how important that that mental health component is, you know, because regardless of where I’m at, if my thinking is stinking, thinking, as the saying goes, is going to lead towards a behavior that isn’t necessarily beneficial. And I think that can be across the board. And I think that’s where the relationship dynamic comes into play, is being able to have people and I just had a discussion last night, and I give the person I was talking with credit. They basically said, I don’t necessarily want your opinion on this. I just want you to be able to vent in such a way that I’m able to verbally process what I’m thinking. And in that moment, I just really was able to hear that as a gift that says, okay, I desire relationship with you, but I don’t necessarily need your opinion on this. And I just like to say thought that was really a gift. And I don’t think we often take time to value the gifts that were given in circumstances like that.
Justin:
Yeah. I mean, again, one of the things that stood out to me in regards to what you’re talking about with mental health is considering and this is kind of morbid, but the idea of when you’re struggling with depression and you’re not sure you can maintain your. Own life. Right. And then on top of it, and there’s another one that has to deal with.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
When I think about that perspective, I think I don’t know how if you can’t even hope for your own life, how you can hope for that one as well.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
I can definitely see that’s a new perspective that I hadn’t really considered, again, was how you would fight that. And for some people, I’m sure mental health is so faceted. Right. So for some people, that other life could be the thing that drives them on and say, well, not for me, but for it for baby or whatever. And for others, it would be a hopeless thing. Right. Like, yeah, I can’t even maintain my own existence. How am I? You know what I mean?
Mark:
Yeah. And I think you bring up a great point because I think those perspectives are completely different in that context. Because the one person who kind of gets inspired might not necessarily be dealing with depression the same way the other person is. Because depression is that ability to be or to feel at times, just overwhelmed.
Justin:
Yeah. But I’ll argue that sometimes depression, in order, sometimes you need a thing to hang on to.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And that’s the thing that keeps you moving.
Mark:
Agreed.
Justin:
Not about I’m not depressed, it’s that thing is the thing that I grab onto and pull myself through the day.
Mark:
It is the source of hope in the midst of the depression.
Justin:
Yeah. Or even obligation. Sometimes I have to maintain for this thing’s sake.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
So I have to get out of bed and go to work. I’m coming from my own perspective sometimes when struggling with depression, it’s like I get out of bed and I go to work again. It’s a faceted thing, right?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
So some people struggle with depression and they go through seasons where they can’t get out of bed, they can’t go to work, they can’t whatever. And I can’t relate to that. What I can say is I still trudge to work, I still do those things. But because I’m hanging on to the obligation things that I like for my family, for the people that work for me, different things like that, like I’m driven obligatorily towards them. Does that make sense?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
And I think sometimes that like, even again, considering abortion, I could definitely see how that could be a driving factor to moving for some.
Mark:
And it may not be for others. That’s where that faceted dynamic comes into play.
Justin:
I also really like where she said, take your worst sin, the thing you’re the most ashamed about. She just put that so well, and it really kind of helped realign it for me. We stand on the sidelines, go, well, that decision is easy. Of course you don’t do that. But it’s at the same, like I said, if you can really dive into yourself and think about that situation of the most shameful thing and then have people around both sides telling you what you should do about this shameful thing. Just like the intensity of emotions that adds a whole new perspective that I think changes things as well. In terms of it’s just an on off decision. It’s just yes, no, it’s not that difficult. And of course, you know what the answer is.
Mark:
Yeah, it’s my perspective. Yeah. But unfortunately that’s where that difference comes into play, is that it just doesn’t fit my perspective, just doesn’t necessarily fit your scenario at times, depending on where you’re at. That’s where it came back to me from how important that relationship piece is. What else came to you from that recording? As far as that goes, I mean.
Justin:
I think we touched on it, but just how we kind of define the fact that that conversation was very much about the relational aspect. And then there’s the political side and I think from a political side, again, she expressed some of her positions there in terms of things she expects from the government and different things like that. My struggle with some of that stuff is I just don’t know that the government’s ever been that good at providing those perfect opportunities. Now, I bet that the government already has some things in place, but because it’s the government, it’s not easy to find or it’s not easy to get. I don’t know what your thoughts are on that, but the thing that she mentioned is the most important is love and the government. That’s not going to come from the government. Right? That would be my kind of thoughts about that because again, politically, I do think we probably fall on different sides of that perspective and that’s totally okay. And again, I have an experience of the struggle of abortion and having to make those decisions and what that process looks like and who’s there, who’s not there, all that we also talked about the moral that government’s not necessarily meant to how do we describe it? The government is not good at defining moral sure. Making people do making people be moral. Yes. And yet all of our laws are based on some moral sure. Right. Like guideline of some sort. I don’t know. Just some thoughts on that.
Mark:
Yeah. And I think there, again, the political, I think at times and we’ve seen the political I think if you’ve been alive, depending on how long you’ve been alive, you’ve been able to see these fluctuations, these cycles, if you will, of bigger government. I guess it’s hard to see it in some ways that are smaller government, but we can see glimpses where depending on the leadership in place, there’s these glimpses of what it would look like. And yet I appreciate what you’re sharing in that context. It’s just politics makes it divisive. And whenever we’re looking to do relationship better or I guess for me, skeptically speaking, I don’t necessarily see the government always being able to do it better than God’s people. I just don’t think it can. And I think that is in some ways a judgment, if I may, against the church. Because I think in some cases we have as a church we have pulled back or we have not been a voice or we’ve been apathetic or that kind of thing in speaking out or when we’ve spoken out. It’s more about boycotts and I’m not going to use it. Not that those things can’t have or.
Justin:
Shouting at people walking into the yeah.
Mark:
That was definitely a bigger part of that. It’s like that vehement disdain for who you are because of your behavior. And I think that’s where we need to be careful in that process and being able to say, okay, yeah, recognizing that the person recognize the value in the person regardless of the behavior they’re currently choosing, I think that’s something that I am more aware of.
Justin:
Yeah. So from both of our perspectives, I think the work is going to be more valuable in pushing the church to have these conversations and having real relationships with people in these situations than the voting side of things and trying to enforce that from a political perspective. I think we have more opportunity and probably are going to be more effective in pushing for these conversations like what we’re doing now. I feel like this is more valuable than trying to speak for three weeks in a row about how important it is you go out and vote for this political side so that we can prevent abortion and all that. That doesn’t mean I don’t think you should vote and that doesn’t mean I don’t think those things matter. But I think that’s kind of what I’m hearing you say and I definitely agree with that in terms of that’s where the work is on the personal relationship sides and where possible, encouraging love in that area and reaching out in that area and being available in that area rather than standing across the street throwing tomatoes.
Mark:
Yeah. And I think the other thing that kind of came out of the podcast as I’m thinking about it was I think sometimes there’s a difference between well, you mentioned obligation. I think there is a healthy twinge of guilt that I can feel after a conversation like that, that I’m not involved in a way because I’ll be honest, that was one of the podcasts that I was able to listen to or chose to listen to again before we came back to this. And being able to recognize that sometimes a topic is going to rightfully create a little guilt that I could be doing more. And I think sometimes being able to just hear that or feel that it doesn’t have to elicit a defensive response.
Justin:
Sometimes we fight it. Yeah, I shouldn’t have to feel guilty.
Mark:
Because and yet feeling that is a healthy thing from my perspective. And that doesn’t mean that I need to specifically go do something else. Now, granted, I may depending on the topic, but I think so often our tendency can be it’s like, well, then I need to because in that process of conversation, I think that’s where part of my desire was. It’s like, tell me how I can help prior to I can be of help in the midst of the situation. And the more I’ve kind of reflected, not in an apathetic kind of way, but the more it’s like, okay, I need to be about the things that I need to be about having the relationships that God’s bringing in my life right now and being able to recognize those relationships are important. And it’s not about necessarily doing the bigger thing or the more flashy thing. It’s more about being consistent in the relationships I have right now. And it kind of came up there a little bit when Sarah mentioned and it’s kind of in the same thing, same vein you mentioned something to the effect of this podcast isn’t necessarily going to change some of these bigger dynamics from a governmental standpoint. I challenged it in the podcast, so I don’t feel like I’m being duplicitous or anything. But yeah, being able to recognize it is quite often those little relationships that can make a big difference. And I think as we talked about it, that was a part where we really kind of came back to an agreement that there is the ability to affect change with just my daily relationships and God’s grace.
Justin:
Yeah. And we talked about purpose before, right?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Episode. And I do think if you are squarely in what you feel your purpose is, then you can affect change in areas that you don’t have any business going over to. And so I think this is an example of that where abortion is not going to it sounds like you came away a little bit of that guilt. So before I get to the guilt thing, I think is important in terms of there’s a song that says break my heart for what breaks yours.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Right.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
And I think it’s important that we let those things crack a few more areas of our hard heart and be able to soften that and say, dang, should I be doing something and be prayerful about that and consider it. And I think the bare minimum that conversation will color the rest of our lives. Right, sure. And I think that’s important. I think that’s not nothing. And that’s without even talking about it publicly in the forum of a podcast where I think this is the thing we can do now. We’re not going to become some it sounds like we’re both on the same page. Where we’re not going to become some sort of abortion counseling service, whatever, that kind of thing, which I think that wrestling is good. That being said, I do understand how that conversation will change my perspective in any future conversations, which is a ripple effect, which now we’re changing the world, I think, by Sarah being willing to come and share that it’s that impactful.
Mark:
I think, right, no doubt. And I think that’s where we’re being able to recognize that those daily relationships and I like that part, I think, and we talked about, well, either way, that aspect searched me. Oh, God, and the things it’s kind of a living Bible translation, but let the things that make you sad make me sad. And I think that’s a healthy perspective to be able to share. And being able to be sad with someone is an important thing to be able to do.
Justin:
Yeah. And picking out doing the wrestling of saying, why do I feel guilty? And then recognizing, well, number one, I probably haven’t done the things I could do in the past. There’s probably some opportunities I missed. So that’s a good opportunity to reflect and recognize that and try and wrestle with that. And number two, is there something I should do differently? And number 03:00, A.m., I just supposed to peel apart the feeling of guilt from, like you said, that sadness, kind of taking on that sadness and having that soften our heart.
Mark:
No doubt. And here again, I’m going to kind of wrap up from my perspective to a certain degree, I think. I like whenever we deal, and I think the political aspect is a great way to deal with that. We talked about that mental health component, and I think when we go too far back, we’re kind of dealing with shame. I did this and suddenly that’s unforgivable. And so therefore, I deal with the shame. And from my perspective, that’s too far back. And I think in our political realm, we see this all the time, well, if they hadn’t done this, we wouldn’t be in this situation, you follow me? Because it’s about blaming what that person did, knowing full well we’re judging that person from hindsight, you know what I’m saying?
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
And I think when we do that, we’re definitely creating shame when we go too far back and when we go too far forward. From my perspective, we’re actually dealing with anxiety to a certain degree, because in some ways, we’re trying to predict the future, we’re trying to control the future. And what if this happens? Well, then we do this, and then what if that happens? Then we do that. And I think to be able to recognize, yes, we have responsibility to make healthy choices, and yet I think there’s that part of us that wants to predict and think that we have some kind of control over the situation. And I think at that point, we’re going to definitely wrestle with anxiety because, well, what if I make the wrong choice? What if I do that wrong? And I think so often it kind of brings to mind the present is a gift, being able to stay right here. Being able to recognize my choices have consequences, but at the same time, I’m making the best choices that I can based on where I’m at right now. And it’s not a desire to intentionally do something that causes someone pain, but yeah, I’m going to.
Justin:
Right.
Mark:
And so that being said, I think it’s beneficial when we’re just able to stay in the moment, feel what we feel, and continue to strive to make the best choices we can based on where we’ve come from. In the midst of being able to grow and recognize we’ve made mistakes, but going back or going forward too far and trying to live there isn’t beneficial. And I think that’s where we get into so often the political realm comes into play, as I was reminded, and just being able it was just a good time to be able to be present and just get to know Sarah a little better in that opportunity and her story.
Justin:
Yeah. So thank you so much for coming on Sarah and sharing, and just know that you touched two old white dudes hearts, so thank you.
Mark:
Yes, indeed. Thank you so much. This is how we see it.
Summarization
– Justin: How can we create more supports for people who are in a place that I can’t even begin to understand. Sarah: Stems from a relationship and that relationship to some healthy individual. Justin: Biggest impact that we can have as individuals is just that relationship.
– Sarah: A big thing that I just wanted to come here and say is just promoting love. Change isn’t going to happen overnight. Change comes from within, but also comes from the people next door and the people that are around us. In this second half of the episode, mark and I discuss a bit about her chat with Sarah.
– Mark Whitaker: I’m just personally very thankful that she’s willing to share from her personal story. Have a conversation. And kind of talk about her perspectives in ours and kind of do that in a respectful way. The ability to have a conversation that doesn’t require correcting goes hand in hand with building and maintaining a relationship.
– Mental health is so faceted. Sometimes depression, in order, sometimes you need a thing to hang on to. And that’s the thing that keeps you moving. It is the source of hope in the midst of the depression.
– I also really like where she said, take your worst sin, the thing you’re most ashamed about. Just like the intensity of emotions that adds a whole new perspective that I think changes things as well. In terms of it’s just an on off decision.
– And I think that’s where we get into so often the political realm comes into play, as I was reminded. So thank you so much for coming on Sarah and sharing, and just know that you touched two old white dudes hearts.
