0:01
[Music] [Laughter] yeah because as you age you have to

0:09
depend on other people MH and I think that's countercultural to what we want

0:14
to be in a lot of cases I think that's what I I think that's why other cultures

0:20
do it better oh yeah in the process of you know what it means to take care of

0:26
our family you know in this cuz you know yeah I'm just thinking about it in the

0:32
process of you know different people that you know with my mom you know Chris's mom and what it's like how hard

0:38
it is for you know each each family to take care of a family member especially

0:44
you know when you get to that very end stages where they're you know I'm very much childlike infant-like type Dynamic

0:52
it's a it's a it's a it's a real thing but yet there's gifts to be available there as well so yeah teaser there

1:00
[Music]

1:06
go welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

1:14
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:20
[Music] conversations bra still

1:26
worrying exactly as long as you're not not worrying not worrying wor worrying yes

1:34
that's all right yeah good morning Justin good morning how are you I'm

1:39
worrying I'm good how are you your mind is turning yes you're not worrying but

1:45
yeah that's good yeah it's always good to have something for your mind to chew on for a moment I think I think that's a

1:53
little bit of what this podcast is just an opportunity to yeah an appetizer if

1:58
you will just to kind of hopefully not a get your brain gets stuck kind of podcast but more of a yeah yeah speaking

2:06
of your brain getting stuck yes just like mine just out of curiosity if you

2:12
were to uh think about it and granted we're uh think about my

2:18
brain getting stuck that's trippy I was thinking about your brain getting stuck but uh if you were to think about the

2:27
ability like longevity mm okay how long would you want to

2:36
live if you had you know the ability to nobody nobody's guaranteed tomorrow that

2:41
kind of thing I respect that but if you in your mind you know when you kind of

2:46
picture longevity Legacy that kind of thing do you have an age that kind of

2:52
goes through your mind yes yeah uh well no uh well maybe

3:01
he's still worrying folks this if you could see my face you'd see the loading spinner I got you

3:08
yes um um I'm actually just started reading this book yeah and you're question ties

3:16
right into kind of the introductory first chapter okay and the book's called uh 4,000 hours I think okay but the

3:24
concept is so it's a time management book okay and so so far you know the

3:30
premise the first chap you kind of what it's about is flipping time management on its head kind of idea because so many

3:37
time management books and this is ties into some of the conversations we've had I I want to say but so many time

3:44
management books are about maximizing your productivity and the output the number of things that you can accomplish

3:49
in the same finite amount of time okay and so far this this again I'm only an

3:57
intro part but it's saying um we have such a finite amount of time

4:04
why are we so worried about maximizing it to fit more stuff

4:10
in and when we do that the other big part of this the intro is saying when we

4:16
do that when you increase the amount of time you have you put more stuff in

4:23
it right so it's like I'm extra productive which means I can take on this other thing which means now I have

4:29
to be more productive and so you know it's like I got you you clear out your inbox your email inbox and it fills

4:35
right back up right and I don't know it's just like so far that's kind of the

4:40
per but one of the things it talks about is Medieval Days the concept of time

4:46
wasn't nearly as crucial you woke up with the sun and you went to bed with the sun and you followed the natural

4:52
cycles and when Harvest came is time time to do Harvest stuff and when the chickens hatch there time to do chicken

4:58
you know egg stuff yeah like you followed the seasons and cycles of nature

5:04
versus of these man-made hours yeah and um and another part that I talked about

5:10
tying back to your question um it's saying we care so much about the time

5:17
we're spending because we only have a finite amount if you had you know 10,000

5:22
years okay you could try everything you wouldn't be so worried about am I making the wrong choice with this job choice or

5:30
um who I'm going to marry right it's like yeah well they'll die out eventually or I will I don't know got

5:37
but you get what I'm saying like the choices aren't as crucial because you have so much time to consider you know

5:42
Alternatives and um so it just made me I was kind of thinking about that already

5:48
last night as I was reading that okay just this idea of like man yeah if we had so much more time there'd be a a

5:56
much more relaxed feeling I think in our life would there be in this I don't know

6:01
this is this kind of how I'm thinking about it this idea

6:06
of it's not all so finite you know what I mean no do that make sense so you

6:13
don't feel the urgency I got to get this done because I got to get to that thing cuz I got to get to that thing and I

6:19
don't necessarily know that that's true that it would relieve us with that but

6:24
I'm not I'm not buying that to be honest with you right off the bat cuz I think we just fill that 10,000 years the same

6:29
way we feel you know yeah you know in that process I mean granted it's a fun

6:35
thought to think about but and I and I think we have the

6:41
ability to establish margin even now yes

6:47
I think I haven't read the book yet I I feel like this is going to be part of it

6:53
but but yeah I agree keep going sorry no no so I'm I'm still coming back to you did you have in other words if you can

6:59
do the 10,000 year option yeah

7:06
um I don't know because it depends on

7:12
the Vitality of the years right so if you like let's say you know 500 years

7:19
you could live so you're I'm saying in a realistic human spum that's what we're

7:25
doing yes just in a 500 years wasn't on the uh option list

7:33
neither 10,000 but that's okay okay up to do I get that yeah okay yeah um well

7:42
my answer is the same it depends on the Vitality of those years like I

7:47
really don't care for the idea of living sickly and having others have to you

7:55
know yeah take care of me in that sense so it was you know good V Vitality until

8:03
I was 65 and then things are going downhill well 68 is good for me I hear

8:09
does that make sense so it's more about yeah so would you say in and when I say

8:15
Vitality I don't necessarily mean being able to do all the same things I just mean being able to use my mind in a way

8:22
that you know that feels alive versus yeah and I don't know what that looks

8:28
like I don't again I'm not I'm not aged to the point where I can understand or

8:34
empathize with that but sure um so I would yeah would be really interesting to hear from the perspective of people

8:40
who are older and what that looks like for them but yeah and I think uh in all honesty that's just kind of what has

8:46
prompted this for me because I do tend to you know work with people aging people you know and uh wrestle and

8:53
anxiety or you know even dementia and you know and these kind of things plus you know I I'd be lying if I'd say you

9:00
know the passing of my mom and you know just routinely being in contact with my

9:05
dad now more so as he's you know in this aging process has really kind of piqued

9:11
my interest in this whole aspect and I've you know not I'm not saying I've

9:17
researched it but you know this process of Aging I mean I like the way you said

9:23
uh aged you know because we're all aging mhm you know in in the the reality is

9:31
we're all aging so it's not like we get to a point and oh my goodness I'm really

9:38
aging now you know look at this or look at that that's an indicator of Aging

9:43
yeah because it it was funny I well I'll change the age to protect the innocent but you know I was working with a a a a

9:50
kid and you know and he was talking about his older sibling being 3 years

9:55
older than him yeah you know and just that differ cuz his sibling is you know

10:02
young teenager adolescent so you know muscle tone is developing you know and

10:07
it's like he's three years younger and it's just impossible you know to compete

10:12
when they were you know you know similar at five and eight maybe or you know it was like competition was a little but

10:19
now there's you know his older brother is aged to this point where it's like muscle is just you know starting to yeah

10:27
especially in those teenage years three years makes it differ exactly tremendous difference you know and but so that's

10:33
still aging you know part of that aging process it was kind of fun to think about but then you know as I was

10:39
thinking about I'm I'm hearing another part that I'm hearing is that part that

10:46
you're kind of alluding to is that in some

10:51
ways my Vitality can be connected to my value

11:00
and I was yeah you know I've been thinking about that process you know is

11:05
that is that an americanize the Western World type thing you know whereas I'm

11:11
tending to lose my you know Independence and becoming more dependent on other

11:18
people I can't do what I used to do for myself so therefore you know my value

11:26
tends to diminish in that yeah in in this culture I guess is does that make

11:33
sense it makes perfect sense and I definitely say that's yeah a big part of

11:38
my answer yeah you know in the back of my mind yeah yeah like once I stop bringing value then just pull the cord

11:45
yeah yeah yeah yeah and I I'm not sure that's understand is very harsh again if

11:51
you're on that other perspective you know reaching that you're listening and you are you know reaching that further

11:58
end of age or whatever and I I would never mean that for someone else yeah

12:03
and that's the thing you know yeah cuz quite often when I'm talking with individuals it's like my my value I'm

12:12
not valuable in this state or in this condition and yet if we spin that around

12:21
and to the point of saying okay if you had a friend that was experiencing what

12:26
you're experiencing and going through what you're going through and you knew that friend would that friend's value

12:33
change you know for you it's like no of course not that's they're still my

12:40
friend and I'd have more empathy for them I'd have more compassion for them and yet we have a difficult time

12:47
flipping that back around and extending that same perspective to

12:53
ourselves which I think is also ties into that conversation about

12:59
our current culture and productivity and yeah you know what brings value right is

13:04
I get stuff done or whatever yeah so yeah I definitely think culturally that

13:10
shifted where I don't know I feel like in

13:15
previous ages you know uh um ages of years okay I can't think of

13:24
the term UHS yes thank you wow my brain is real

13:31
real just slow today I don't have any value Mark you do you do I'm patient I'm

13:36
happy to wait uh yeah so like you know previous generations yeah that's a good

13:42
way to put it um the I think the the mentality was so much different where

13:49
every family member brought value in different ways it wasn't just about getting things done yeah and there was

13:56
this honor in age right and there's this connection with you know your your older

14:03
CU they you tended to all live in the same you know in a lot of cultures in the same under the same roof right and

14:09
some cultures still do yep yep which that's why I was kind of asking that aspect of the is it you know a you know

14:17
Western Civilization productivity mindset that has actually

14:24
devalued aging you know or aged you know say absolutely right well as I I hadn't

14:31
I hadn't gone that far you know in the whole thing but you know it reminded because um it did go to um Proverbs uh

14:40
what 20 uh 29 something where it talks about you know the the uh Splendor of

14:46
the young is their strength and the Splendor of the you know old is their gray hair or you know men is their you

14:53
know gray hair and I you know to that point you know it's like I don't know as

14:58
if we're still looking at aging as a splendor yeah you know anymore and you know i'

15:06
I've probably mentioned it before you know my my whole Caleb type Dynamic and

15:11
Joshua he talk you know he talks about being as strong at 85 you know and therefore he wants this Hill Country he

15:18
wants to you know and I and there's there's definitely you know numbers of

15:25
people you know who have taken on great works or the desire to have a great work

15:33
you know in their 80s yeah and it's like yeah I mean and so that's that's kind of

15:39
intrigued this mindset of okay what makes that difference you know of one person saying

15:47
yeah doesn't matter I'm still I still want to do and the other person and I

15:53
think where you're at you know some of it is that aspect of you know Vitality

16:01
if you would yeah yeah I yeah

16:08
I I think man yeah I definitely think the value thing ties directly into my

16:13
thoughts like yeah I just and I I don't think I'm alone right I think you

16:19
already described like even talking to I hope you're not alone I'm right here older but alone in my thinking okay that

16:26
as soon as I stop providing value you I don't want to burden anyone and you know

16:32
I think that's a common maybe thought but I know that's for sure how I feel whether I think that's right or not it's

16:38
just that's definitely how I feel like but would if I if I may I'm not trying to be rude or anything but you know no

16:48
offense would you say that that perspective is a Biblical perspective oh

16:54
yeah I mean um no

17:00
I'm not sure if it's anti-al either but well that's why that's why I mean this is part of the this is part of what we

17:07
do on how I see it I think it's for me just a selfish perspective you know what

17:14
I mean okay yeah because also you know my

17:21
perception is that I'm I don't know yeah just like if

17:27
I'm not if I'm just draining to others in that they need to help me and they

17:33
you know all these things um as much as they love me what they love was who I

17:39
was not necessarily does that make sense oh a little slippery there what they love is who I was yeah but yeah I'm

17:48
still thinking about it I think I'm here's here's the Continuum you know

17:56
Independence versus dependence yeah yeah if we if I may and I think there's a

18:02
point where as we shift further from Independence we tend to think our value

18:10
declines as we head towards dependence MH and yet how many times have you heard

18:18
of people who have said you know you

18:23
couldn't you couldn't buy the last three months the last

18:29
six years the last two years you know that I had with my parent or whatever

18:36
because of the ability that I had to take care of them and spend time with them in a way that I never had before MH

18:43
you follow me I do follow you so it's like that I respect and I think some of

18:49
it is a a self versus others awareness you know what I mean it's like the

18:56
individual while head while heading towards dependence they may tend to

19:01
think of themselves as Val devaluing whereas the individual the caretaker and

19:07
I'm not saying in all cases I realize there are caretakers who you know get

19:12
tired who get but they they might even sacrifice themselves even to a degree

19:19
for the sake of that caring for the other individual which reflects the fact

19:25
that the value has not decreased but yet increased in some ways does that make sense and I

19:33
realize it's a a a relational Dynamic but I that's the you know

19:40
because I think and here here's my here's the difference I think in some ways it can tie into our comfort with

19:49
vulnerability M you know we've talked about you know granted and I and I as

19:54
I'm wrestling with this myself I think you know in some cases the the is it

20:01
like Proverbs 252 uh2 where it talks about

20:06
um yeah all I can think of as Splendor is god let's see you want me to look it

20:12
up no okay uh in other words it's basically God is glorified in the hidden

20:21
things but it it's the glory of God there you go to conceal a matter okay

20:26
but the Glory of Kings to search a matter out mhm and I think you know this

20:32
and not that I'm any King but this has kind of been a searching out for me a

20:37
wrestling if you will because like you said I believe you know it's God's glory

20:43
that our life is so complex it's not that there's just one siiz fits-all type

20:49
Dynamic you follow me yeah so I think that's God's glory that our life is so

20:55
complex there's you know different aspects the Vitality you know even is you know my mental health my physical

21:02
health you know my emotional health my ability to you know do these different

21:08
things and you know what what has an impact on that I was I I was talking

21:14
with an individual the other day and uh he was saying that social social

21:19
involvement you know is the greatest you know predictor of long life W which I

21:27
could agree with but it was funny when I when I kind of wanted to fact check that you know I

21:33
kind of typed in longevity you know and greatest predictor and Mobility was

21:39
another one like you're saying you know that Vitality um the length the the length of

21:45
life that my parents you know my genetics if you will you know factored

21:51
into that uh hand strength was another you know you know to where guess I got

21:57
to start shaking your hand hard but yeah there was just you know it was

22:03
you know I would have loved to have been able to you know link one list but it's it's more complex than that you know

22:10
it's like that research was saying you know mobility and flexibility because they were the exercise group but yeah

22:18
exercise isn't necessarily always at the top of those lists yeah but social well

22:24
and definitely uh social involvement versus is isolation yeah was definitely

22:31
you know a predictor you know for longevity you and granted I'm not

22:37
worshiping longevity but I'm thinking about it in a context of aging and you

22:42
know and and granted I think you know I guess my my passion if you will

22:49
in the topic is to be able to recognize okay yeah I can't guarantee that we're

22:54
going to all live to 85 but yet believe there are things we can be doing now that might lead to a

23:03
little more Vitality or and I'm not saying that our Vitality impacts our

23:09
worth that's that's the other wrestling that's kind of been behind this it's

23:15
like no you you still have and granted I'm not that person at

23:22
this point mhm but yet I've also seen you know and heard the you know the test

23:27
if you will the testimonials from you know people caregivers yeah for

23:33
individuals and even you know people who are saying you know yeah that was you

23:39
couldn't trade that time yeah so at the risk of

23:44
uh uh how do I put this no risk just go ahead uh how do like you answered the

23:52
question how what's your comfort level with aging what is the ideal age what is does it look like how do you

24:00
feel about how comfortable are you with the idea of you know having you know

24:08
let's a a broken down body that can't do things you depend on others or a broken

24:14
down mind that can't quite you know yeah like how how how do you feel about those

24:19
things what is your your gut feeling to those things and how do you that Mak it

24:25
oh yeah like be a little vulnerable with me of course no sweat that's why I'm saying there's no risk um I am not a

24:33
person that I mean it I I think it would be fun you know to

24:41
be a uh what What's what do you call a person that makes hundred years there

24:47
octarian yeah you know I think that would be kind of cool but there again it's that do I still have basic fa

24:56
faculties to you know do that well MH you know cuz it's like yeah there's

25:02
there's so but that's not my goal I'll be honest you know it's like if if I did

25:07
if I could that' be cool but at the same time yeah I'm I'm happy to make 90 mhm

25:15
you know that kind of thing and it's funny CU as I'm thinking about that you know it's

25:24
like I'm also recognizing I'm not going to have the same ability and and I think

25:31
that's where when I'm talking with people they they had you know the the

25:38
premise or the perspective that yes I'm going to maintain you know all the

25:45
abilities that I had at 50 right on up through till the day I die you know that

25:51
kind of thing and that's not reality as far as I'm concerned or at least 60 or

25:56
at least 70 yeah right yeah and I think and I think when they hit those markers

26:03
or when those other things come you know that's a that's a a difficult process

26:11
and I think you know our so again stop talking about them and talk about you is that difficult for

26:18
you and that that's that's what I'm actually wrestling with is is the ability to recognize no I'm okay with

26:26
the aging process MH you know and granted I'm also doing that I'm also

26:31
looking at that from you know my parents' perspective both both my mom

26:37
died to 85 my dad's still 89 you know that kind of thing to

26:43
where that's my perspective on it and Chris's dad away as well yeah but he's

26:49
you know so like you say he's pretty young yeah yeah so yeah I mean that's

26:54
the B benefit right to being around situations like that it gives you a better perspective on it well it gives

27:02
me a perspective I don't know whether it's better you know what I'm saying so

27:07
I may be more comfortable yeah comfortable I may be more comfortable with that aging process in the fact that

27:14
yeah you know I recognize and and here again I think I think I I'm bringing it

27:21
back to myself I have also rustled with the fact that you know when I had

27:28
you knew I had those blood clots like you know and it's like I think for me that was a that was a a a turning point

27:37
it's like you know nobody's guaranteed tomorrow and I think I had boughten into the lie if you will that if I do this

27:44
this and this and this I can live to be a hundred you follow me and it was like I was doing those things

27:51
and not to be more but but I you know if if things hadn't gone as well as they did I could have died you know that

27:58
point it's just a fact so you know I think for me that was a that was a

28:03
turning point cuz I was able to recognize in some ways okay yeah nobody's guaranteed tomorrow period it

28:10
doesn't matter what you're doing it doesn't matter who you are it doesn't matter what you have you know each day

28:16
is a gift and so therefore you know and and yet it it's funny as I was thinking

28:23
about that gift you know how many times and I think you know Faith factors into

28:28
to some of these issues you know that kind of thing do sense of purpose you know as and I think that's a difficult

28:35
thing I'm not I'm saying for myself it would be difficult me too you know to

28:42
recognize a sense of purpose if I don't have all my mental facilities type thing

28:49
because I was thinking about it you know I think that is part of

28:54
the um Splendor of is that is that wisdom Dynamic that older people have

29:01
and I think unfortunately you know as a culture we've tended to

29:08
devalue that that wisdom because so often it's connected with um being out

29:15
of touch be yes yes being out of touch or you know just being stuck

29:23
oldfashioned you know when in reality some of that's just out wisdom that we

29:29
could still benefit from today and they could probably tell us why some of the fences were built you

29:36
know fence yes exactly and to be able to say you know what that's probably not

29:43
such a good idea cuz people did that back in the 20s you know in this

29:48
cyclical type you know governmental type thing you know it's like they've seen

29:53
some things that we can learn from and say you know what no need to reinvent

29:59
that wheel yeah you know yeah the kind you know socialism type Dynamics you

30:06
know and and granted there's the you know the upgraded socialism of our culture today but you know it is it is

30:12
kind of interesting to think about how in a lot of cases you know if a person

30:19
and I and I think it can be you know on both ends of the spectrum you know you

30:25
talk with a parent of a of a Down syndrome it's like that child has no less value you know but yet culturally

30:33
we can say well no in the womb you know this child's going to have these issues

30:39
and we can dispose of it at this point and I think we have that same disposable perspective in some cases

30:47
yeah you know as people age and I just russle with that yeah I think that I

30:54
think that's awesome and I think yeah I think think if anything

30:59
it yeah you've this is bad you've pulled me into

31:06
the wrestle right to kind of think be thinking about it and I can definitely tell you I haven't been wrestling this

31:12
so like it's kind of a New Concept to me to even think about or wrestle with it

31:17
and I can tell you I don't like the idea of Aging like this is my initial wrestling is just like please no um but

31:24
you mentioned uh kind of having the mental you know faculties diminish is kind of

31:30
the thing that's less appealing to you I'd almost rather not know that I don't know yeah right yeah then have the

31:39
mental faculties but the inability to do something about it you know what I'm

31:44
saying so if I may clarification you would you would wrestle with having all

31:50
your mental faculties and then losing your physical ability to implement right

31:57
I think so got that's right now what feels pain the most painful thinking about it right this idea that and not

32:05
only is my mental faculties there in the desire to do things and in the knowledge to do things but I can't physically do

32:11
them but I'm also because my mental faculties are there I know the drain

32:17
that I am to others right where like I guess I wouldn't mind being a little bit

32:23
scile because that would I I hope relieve some of that burden and I think

32:29
that's the thing that I'm probably the most afraid of for you though in aging yes is being a burden I got you and

32:36
knowing it I hear you so that's the wrestling that I'll have to do you know

32:41
as I age and just recognizing that being a burden isn't always you know kind of like what you're

32:48
saying that doesn't diminish value yeah but it certainly feels that way right because I think that's kind of how our

32:55
culture you know it treats each other and kind of how we think culturally is

33:02
like my values based on what I do yeah my output my productivity and the more

33:07
productive the more valuable you are and that's why we listen to people who get a lot of stuff done and that's why we

33:13
don't listen to people who don't like you know I mean it's like our culture is very much bent towards that and so for

33:20
me it's very difficult to conceive of or you know concede to being a burden and

33:25
not bringing being productive like output not being doeses that make sense yeah

33:31
and and that's the question I guess in some ways have have we in some ways made

33:36
productivity a god oh yeah absolutely you know yeah I definitely think so yeah

33:43
it's an idol if you will yeah I mean I'm very much again my brain's kind of

33:48
tipped towards that because of this book I'm reading and just it's very much saying the same thing again I don't know

33:53
I haven't finished the book but yeah yeah that's kind of the permise it's setting up and it's like yeah it's that's pretty true like so much about

34:00
our cultures about how to maximize how much we can do yeah you know yeah can

34:07
you think of a older person that you

34:14
would I mean want to live like I you

34:19
know I think that's part of my struggle too um because of the way our family is

34:26
MHM I can't really latch on to some family members and I'm like that would

34:31
be okay to be like that oh really yes so I think that cuz I was thinking about that a little bit earlier just like I

34:38
don't really have that and so what I think about for my kids is just I don't

34:43
want that for them you know cuz I can't picture and my parents aren't quite old

34:48
enough for that either and um that's also a wrestling too is like I don't how

34:55
unselfish can I be like Al I'm honestly that brings anxiety this idea

35:02
of having to take care of my parents because I don't know if I I'm that caretaker right like or or how good I'll

35:09
be at that I'm not going to say I won't do it or whatever I'm just saying like so that's part of the the picture too

35:15
just like I don't want my kids to have to wrestle with that but obviously don't

35:22
have that choice necessarily so I'm not I'm not saying that but if I did you

35:27
know I would definitely choose to live right up until I couldn't be you know of

35:32
value and then and and granted I think there are

35:37
end of life issues you know I think you know there is

35:43
a I guess in some ways when I think of modern medicine I think you know P

35:49
previous generations that end of life transition

35:55
if you will you know there weren't as many options we couldn't you know keep

36:00
people alive or they couldn't keep people alive back then to the degree that we can now based on

36:07
technology so I'm I'm I'm going to recognize that as a separate issue you

36:13
know well it's tight it's it's part of the complexity yeah you know of you know

36:20
that ability that we have to basically choose not choose when we end our lives

36:26
but to a degree choose how much um support we do you know and I and I think

36:34
about that when I think about support it does some ways come back to the you know

36:39
the social you know connections that people have because I think we can tend to underestimate how important that is

36:47
and I think you know that was something that I was able to see you know in my father-in-law and you know and you know

36:54
my mom and that kind of thing how we we live North Carolina you and I think it's

36:59
another thing um between you and me that 15 years give or take in age makes a big

37:05
difference yeah for sure you know as far as cycle of Life type things what your

37:11
are difference in experience at that point but I was thinking about it in the context of how you know we live Chris

37:19
and I live in North Carolina our parents New York and Pennsylvania so we weren't necessarily able you know to you know be

37:26
but I was so thankful in that process that really the communities you know

37:33
were so much of the support and not excuse me I apologize because you know

37:39
with with Chris's dad you know she her siblings were in that area that kind of thing they were tremendous support but

37:45
you know there were also external supports you know that came in to you know help watch and you know at times

37:52
and I've definitely noticed it you know more with my parents cuz my brother's in Pennsylvania but still 4 hours away and

37:59
you know it's the people it's the people that still plow out their driveway you know in the winter time and you know and

38:06
you know my dad you know is basically saying yeah I'm I'm I'm gaining some weight here after your mom might be the

38:11
way he's eating a little bit but no he's still eating pretty healthy but you know he's still eating food that people have

38:16
dropped off from you know the funeral and that's been you know end beginning of end of August you know so you know

38:23
that kind of thing those those supports yeah I think that's a that's a

38:28
tremendous blessing you know when we think about that difference of longevity between you know socially engaged and

38:36
involvement you know and versus the isolation and I think you know that can

38:43
tie in to when we don't see ourselves as valuable you know we tend to pull back

38:51
yeah you know and head more towards isolation you know because we can't be

38:57
as independent as we are and you know yeah or as we were yeah I love the

39:03
stories that I heard about your mom just you know if I if I'm going to get old I

39:10
want to get old like your mom is that fair that's fair that's fair and uh yeah

39:16
and she didn't seem to intentionally isolate like and I I don't I just a lot

39:22
of things you said you know people would kind of be lying to her at church to Sure connect with and just stuff like

39:28
that and I think that would definitely be a desire of mine as I ages to be

39:34
involved in engaged in community and have that value that it's that without a

39:40
doubt was obvious with your mom right yeah and I think so when I think about the Val

39:48
again this is all this is why I'm so slow it's like I'm just thinking it out

39:53
out I would say I've given this less thought than just about anything else talk about which is uh in all fairness

40:01
like you say it was you know something that you know we had kind of sprung on you a little bit we you know had it as a

40:06
topic but it wasn't something that yeah yeah most of the time though things I've thought a lot more about in this one I

40:12
would just say it's I think I avoid thinking about this honestly that's fair because I think it does it brings

40:20
anxiety me to me to this idea of being a drain on society

40:27
specifically my family but I like I like the fact not that

40:33
you're feeling anxious but I I like the fact that you're able to express that

40:39
because it's like okay you know how what do we need that what do we need to do in

40:44
some ways to reverse as people are aging that this fear Dynamic and granted you

40:50
know my ability to have children you know if I did or didn't have children you know who's going to take care of me

40:56
and what you know I respect that's all out there but at the same time I I I

41:03
guess like you say it's just a passion for me that people don't necessarily connect that value with

41:10
Vitality yeah but well and I think Vitality too I

41:17
think I think it's also important to Define that agreed and that's where yeah

41:23
I was thinking like you were sharing with my mom she had all of her mental facil she may not have been able to do

41:28
it physically but it was that mental capacity that was there you know to be

41:35
able to connect and engage and that kind of thing in such a way that made it you

41:40
know possible and I and you know I think you know um with Chris's dad you know he still had you know much of his mental

41:48
capabilities you know and you know it was his physical body that was you know

41:54
giving out in the process of the cancer type stuff so it was a different you know yeah yeah I think again just going

42:03
back to her Mom it sounds like she's very engaged with others and very considerate of others

42:08
so she didn't really again this is all based on your story so you you could

42:15
have coded this but uh just I get this perception that she wasn't trying to

42:21
draw everyone into her life she was trying to connect in theirs sure you know and yeah and so the value you know

42:28
but then as a result people also cared about her and but that wasn't her goal and that wasn't her desire and I think

42:34
for me as I wrestled with this in the moment like I I think I want to be of that mind to be about

42:43
still being engaged with others and and trying to like ask them questions about

42:48
their life and kind of you know whacked my mic see you're getting compassionate you're getting passionate about this now

42:55
you're starting to talk with your hands that's right uh but yeah being able to connect with others and and I don't want to say bring

43:02
value in that way but bring value even to my own life to serve others and and to feel

43:09
like yeah yeah yeah so I think I think and but again if the mental facilities

43:16
declin to where I can't really do that you know MH maybe it's okay because I

43:22
won't realize it I hear you and that's you know but if I can't do stuff with my hands

43:28
at least like someone whe me to the the church or whatever so I can yeah ask you

43:33
know how how that kids doing or what you know what I mean like to me kind of yeah

43:39
and remember the person's name hopefully yeah exactly exactly which again it's

43:45
it's it's interesting to perceive like you know the beginning with the end of mind kind of fast forward to the end and

43:52
thinking about it um when I think about it through the lens of your mom and the stories you've told it's like that feels

43:58
more palatable but I don't necessarily see anything like that in my culture

44:04
where I live I got you where we are you know I hear you think about our church I I don't think of someone older in that

44:12
kind of state where people kind of make a beine to that person you know what I

44:18
mean sure and so it's just kind of hard for me to picture it I

44:24
got I definitely don't think it's impossible I'm just saying that I think that's part of what makes it harder to

44:29
wrestle with is just like how do I fit in the culture that I'm in right now when I'm no longer who I am you know

44:36
like at this age who I am right now right exactly U and I just think that's not

44:43
something to even worry about right like I think and I think in it's interesting when we think about the aging process

44:51
you know it's like who I am right now well all will you take care of me when I

44:56
when I'm decrepit and you're 100

45:01
octogenarian I will see what I can do Justin I will see what I cuz I think you're going to be

45:09
more all right it's on record folks if he's not taking care of me in my decre

45:15
will I will say part of the aging process for me the probably the one of the bigger factors I've noticed is my

45:21
eyesight okay so like you say I can't guarantee you know my time you're 100

45:27
they can probably replace your eyeballs so it's okay but like you say I'll do I'll do my best to keep your beard you

45:34
know as as as CED as you keep it you know it's like your hairstyles are pretty high maintenance for a man that

45:41
can't see well yeah you can just tell me it looks good that's I mean I won't really know

45:47
cuz I'll be in that state no like you say yeah as long as as long as Megan can still do your hair for you we're we're

45:54
good shape yeah but yeah well I honestly hope I outlive her so she doesn't have to deal with me in that state I'm going

45:59
to be honest yeah well that was that was another that was another thing you know it's like uh Chris and I had that little

46:07
uh couples type contract early on that you know I had agreed you know in some

46:14
ways to pass away after her yeah you know that you know and I think other couples do that but when but when the uh

46:21
when I got the the PE there you know it was like PE uh pulmonary embolism

46:27
blood clock sorry but you know when when I had that issue it's like okay I can't

46:34
I can't I can't guarantee you know and it really was kind of a you know I and maybe that's a part of what has you know

46:41
in combination with you know my mom and Ernie you know and my dad and you know Linda is you know surviving you know

46:49
partners for you know spouses it just makes me think about that as far as you know you know what

46:56
the the next year's look like you know yeah and it's just and I and I think that's the the difficult part for me cuz

47:03
you were talking about even our church but you know like Ray Moore would be somebody you know that you just

47:09
routinely you know aging person who you just routinely look forward to seeing

47:15
and you know when they walk into a room it's like you know people make the effort Chris granted he's made the

47:21
effort yeah you know in that case you know because he'll you know routinely ask about the kids you know when we see

47:27
him and that kind of thing so just kind of thinking about that you know that there and the other thing I was thinking

47:33
based on what you want to you know maintain what you have right

47:38
now in comparison to other people that you are surrounded by you know and I

47:45
think as we age it's like you would you're okay with where you're at right

47:51
now and granted as long as the majority of the people stay around around you

47:57
that are around you you know another 10 years it might still be very similar mhm

48:04
you follow me no well but I'm trying I'm it's okay in other words picture picture

48:09
yourself at my age yeah okay your lifestyle probably isn't going to change

48:16
a whole lot more even though you may be thinking it will you know you want to

48:21
maintain what you have right now I don't I that's what I thought I heard no I

48:26
think I'm okay with getting into 60s 70s like I think I'm okay with the kind of

48:32
the declining abilities but reasonable amount you know like I I I'm not afraid of that really okay it's really about

48:39
the cliff that that brings me the nervousness is like yeah yeah I have a

48:45
stroke and now like you know I need assistance with things and you know or

48:51
mentally it's like what day is it you know I don't know like there's some of those that Cliff is what makes me

48:57
nervous um I think if it's a slow decline yeah I don't know I feel like that's what I've been dealing with for

49:03
the last 10 years right so it's like and I think obviously the pace of that increases the older you get but I'm just

49:09
saying I think I don't think that's what really makes me nervous as much

49:15
as well yesterday you know he was a stal in our

49:20
community and today we now have to take care of them you know maybe it's a day maybe it's over the course of a year

49:27
quick decline whatever that but I'm saying that kind of that Cliff nature is sure really the thing that that I kind

49:33
of wrestle with that anxiety but yeah I don't know if that I think for me

49:39
ultimately you mentioned this earlier it's about faith right it's about you don't control this I don't

49:46
control this you know I know I think if I had imagine in your mind's

49:52
eye you know you're this this guy out in the garage doing you know tinkering doing things even when you got you know

49:59
you're bent over and can barely stand straight but you're still out there nailing some wood or whatever like

50:04
tinkering yeah tinkering exactly I I think that's kind of your perception my perception is hopefully something like

50:11
that too but it's like we don't have any control over that Vision or becoming

50:17
reality yep I also I'm also not belittling belittling that Vision I

50:23
think begin with the end in mind I think there's something to be said about I'm going to live to be tinkering in my garage till I'm 100 mhm I think there's

50:30
something about that idea that can keep you vital V Keep Your vitality to a degree but back to what I saying we

50:37
don't have any control agreed and I think and I'm not saying yeah we do I just and I think if anything I want to

50:44
recognize what we do that conveys value

50:50
to the Aging you know in that process of so often I think it's difficult to

50:56
maintain Ain that you know that perspective of having value when I am no

51:03
longer you know V you know when I when I am no longer productive I want to

51:09
separate vital from productive yeah you know because I believe everybody is vital yeah but even when they're not

51:18
productive seemingly productive yes from an output standpoint yeah another recent

51:24
example that's very real for me would be Jean good friend of ours who was very

51:30
involved with us at CR and yeah he and I had tons of awesome conversations and

51:38
kind of were accountability Partners to a degree and stuff like that and as a result I got to know him and his life

51:44
really well and got to learn a ton from him just sure really just I really value

51:50
that relationship and I always will yeah and um you know he played music he played the fiddle and would play with us

51:57
at CR and yeah I mean those are my favorite memories playing music by far

52:02
is being up there on stage with him you know him playing the fiddle or the steel guitar he he killed the steel guitar too

52:09
yeah for a minute there and then there was a cliff where he just couldn't play

52:15
fiddle like that anymore and he would stumble through it and he'd have to get help up on the stage and help back off

52:22
and MH and I saw that kill him you know what I mean I saw that like inability to

52:28
do do the things he loved just mentally break him down um and I I think you know he

52:36
basically said that's it I'm done you know and it was within a year or two years or whatever that he passed away

52:42
and that's one of the closer examples I've have of dying from old age

52:48
basically right I've had people Dy in my life that were you know older but typically it was a sickness or you know

52:54
kind of like we said um I think with Ernie where the cancer it's it's like there's a villain there and you can kind

53:00
of chalk it up to that and that feels a little bit different than just kind of old age decline decline yeah sure um and

53:10
I I look at what he went through and I was like I don't want that either I know he didn't want it you know and he was

53:17
like this is taking too long to die what's going on you know like get me out of here and uh I think very much as a

53:25
man who had such a rich life such a rich life when it's when he's again that

53:32
ability to Output stopped he just wanted out and I think that's definitely I relate to that and I feel like that's

53:38
how I feel about it and yet um you know again we don't control that and do

53:46
you think I'm just asking a philosophical question do you do you think there is if when we think about a

53:54
loving God like we talk about do you think there is you know he takes that into consideration in that part I think

54:01
so I hear you I mean I yes I believe so but I also know that he does things we

54:09
don't want all the time I get right so there's this things that causes growth and I and I think I think sometimes you

54:16
know when we think about the fruits of the spirit you know all that you know I

54:22
I think that process can also increase our patience yeah our ability to say

54:29
Okay God you know and and there again faith is a part of that you know that process and I can understand you know

54:36
people who don't have a faith you know will definitely rustle

54:42
more with anxiety in that process of yeah what comes next type thing and I

54:49
feel for people like that don't get me wrong I have you know compassion for them and you know that's where I want to

54:55
I guess that's another part of that desire that I have to convey no your life has purpose and it does have value

55:02
and you're still here because maybe you need to understand a little more of what

55:07
you know the purpose is for your life to be able to have relationship with Jesus

55:12
Christ in that process and it's from my perspective it's to your benefit that

55:18
you're still here yeah if you're not if you're not ready you know if you don't have relationship with Jesus Christ to

55:25
you know spend eternity you know with him you know that kind of thing so yeah

55:30
it's just yeah yeah I think that definitely that's part of the the

55:38
conversation as well certainly because as Believers it's like as soon as my

55:43
life here is not MH such that I feel

55:49
good yeah take me to the next month cuz it's way better you know it's like so that's part of it too but but yeah again

55:56
just all this kind of for me comes back to Faith and and I don't have control and you know if I end up being the the

56:04
sick person that has to be taken care of basically the scenario I don't want I still trust God in that I still trust he

56:10
has a purpose in it that my kids are meant to learn something from that that the caretaker is involved like that

56:17
there's purpose in it sure I know that's true I hear you I I'm I 100% have faith

56:24
that that's what he's meant for me if that's how it's supposed to go that doesn't mean that's what I want I want

56:30
the opposite right like I want to be vital and then dead that's what I want yeah like a good

56:36
clean car crash right when I hit 85 would be good be careful what you ask for you

56:44
know but no I hear where you're coming from or you know fall asleep and then you don't wake up I mean that's that's

56:50
always the the dream no I get you yeah yeah and but again

56:56
yeah I can say after wrestling for one hour that I'm okay with whatever it's

57:02
going to be you know I've surrendered it right like and I think that's you know

57:08
but it'll be an ongoing wrestling as I do age and as it becomes more real mhm but um yeah ultimately I'm okay with

57:16
however goes cuz I know it's part of his plan sure and if that's again if my kids

57:23
go through the hardest time taking care of me it's probably good for based on who they are right now I can say they

57:29
can learn to serve a little bit okay that's fair yeah as far I'm saying

57:34
that's fair as far as you're being their father and casting casting down that view but yeah yeah no so yeah know that

57:43
you're uh know that your life has value even as you uh lose productivity Justin

57:49
and that and so we'll we'll have to do an update I we'll have to catch an update on your book that you're reading

57:57
see where it goes yeah see where it goes hopefully it's so good that I can't help but make you do an episode on it well

58:03
I'm I'm willing to I'm willing to be a part of it but yeah so I I appre just

58:08
know that uh I appreciate your wrestling this morning in that in that process and

58:15
yeah I appreciate yours the wrestling you've done to kind of bring into this conversation it's good stuff and for all

58:22
and granted I I don't think our uh our listenership is uh that agent according to our uh but yeah doing doing what you

58:30
can to think about the plan for the end with the beginning plan for the from the

58:37
beginning with the end in mind yeah so think about it in that process of okay

58:42
how am I planning for my future not that God isn't in control of it but yeah what

58:47
kind of old person do you want to be and how can you how can you work towards that right now you know uh for me it's

58:55
relational so I do and I do think it's un I think it's uh it's fair that you

59:02
know people tend to age as I interact with people you know I think there are

59:09
tend to be two groups you know those people who are less fearful and therefore are more engaged and those who

59:17
are more fearful and kind of tend to be more contener if you will

59:24
um you know because I I I think it does come back to Viewpoint in some ways as

59:30
far as you know if it's mind to control you know and I can't control what my

59:36
body is doing and the way it's falling apart you know that's a difficult process but if we can basically say okay

59:44
you know there's a purpose in it even even in you know the

59:49
circumstances you know I think that frees us up to be able to say okay you

59:55
know this is this is this is my body for God to use you

1:00:02
know that kind of thing and and um here again I probably I don't know whether you and I have shared it

1:00:09
but um over the mic but you know as I was thinking about that as um it came to

1:00:16
mind as I prayed you know over my mom's grave you know cuz I realize it the

1:00:22
internment if you will I realize you know we were putting her physical body

1:00:28
in the ground you know she was no longer there but I was able in that moment to

1:00:36
recognize how God had gifted her with that physical body in such a way that

1:00:44
she used it and well God used it in her life to make her who she was you know in

1:00:51
her spirit as as as her you know what I'm saying to her and so so in some ways

1:00:58
that's my view of you know or limitations to where you

1:01:06
know I think we see limitations as being wrong bad but yet you know so often it

1:01:14
is the limitations that make us into something yeah better who you are yeah

1:01:20
who we are and I think you know yeah my so in that my process is to

1:01:28
be a my desire would be to be able to be a joyfill person you know even as

1:01:36
I experience the limitations that come with the aging process yeah that's that's my and and so

1:01:43
therefore you know do I get frustrated when do I get frustrated when I bang my

1:01:51
head against the other side of a closet CU I can't get my eyes far enough away away from something to see it like I

1:01:57
used to sure I do but you know it's like okay Mark you got to go you got to get a

1:02:03
stronger light you got to get your readers on you got to do something and I still get frustrated with that when I

1:02:08
can't do what I once did but yet I've also come to the realization that you

1:02:14
know I'm not as strong physically as I once was but you know it's like okay

1:02:20
there's no use blowing your back out again just to think you're still as strong as you were yeah you know so yeah

1:02:27
I wrestle with those things don't get me wrong in that aging process but I'm also able to say Okay God how are you how are

1:02:35
you developing the fruits of the spirit in my life based on this you know and it

1:02:42
does come back to okay I gotta ask I gotta ask somebody for help you know I

1:02:47
got I got I gotta ask one of those strong young men who you know Splendor is John you know or Lizzy you know that

1:02:54
you know at times Chris I quite often rely on Chris it's like okay you know she's right there what does that say you

1:02:59
know cuz I can't see it anymore you know to the degree that I once did you know but I am learning in that way to depend

1:03:06
on you know Chris and you know it's like hey John okay I'm not asking you to blow your back out either but you know

1:03:12
between the two of us you know I can contribute my 25%

1:03:18
and you know yeah that kind of thing so yeah it is it is a and it and I will say

1:03:24
at this point I think I've I've learned I'm learning to Value I

1:03:29
know you kind of refer to me as the Lone Wolf person but um I think in some ways

1:03:35
I am processing that the value of that in

1:03:41
that process of yeah I can but is is it now a greater strength of mine to be

1:03:46
able to unify some people and say Hey can I have a hand can we do this you

1:03:52
know cuz there's a lot to be said for that as well so like you say I mean it's

1:03:57
yeah it's the glory of God to conceal a matter it's the Glory of Kings to search it out that's right yeah you're doing it

1:04:04
well I'm working on I can't see dragging me along for the ride does that make sense in the process

1:04:11
of things it does yeah I had a vivid and hilarious and uh beginning with the end

1:04:18
in mind mind Vision yeah I'll share before yeah we drop yeah I just had this

1:04:24
idea of like being very involved relationally and yet not having all my uh facilities and I

1:04:32
just Envision accidentally peeing myself and I want to be the guy who

1:04:39
makes hilarious jokes about that and everyone in the room to remember that

1:04:44
and like hold on to that for when they're old does that make sense like that's the kind of old I want to be yes

1:04:50
that you don't take yourself too seriously and like this is part of the deal yeah know and yeah yeah I I'm going

1:04:58
to work on my jokes for that you you you've just relieved some of your own anxiety about that process the wrestling

1:05:05
yeah that's my end of Life vision is nice relieving myself nice J

1:05:12
accidentally and uh you know leaveing with a good joke as I exit or as I'm wheeled out by someone else there you go

1:05:19
Justin will be saying something about that sock was getting a little too dry oh look that joke up wow no that's

1:05:27
off the cuff so like I say you won't find it out there but yeah I can respect uh your sense of humor in that process

1:05:34
yeah so yeah well thanks thanks for sharing Justin yeah thank you problem for bringing it up that's how we see

1:05:41
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