Mark:

Yeah. Because as you age you have to depend on other people. And I think that’s countercultural to what we want to be in a lot of cases. I think that’s what uh that’s I think that’s why other cultures do it better.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

In the process of, you know, what it means to take care of our family, you know, in this because, you know, yeah. I’m just thinking about it in the process of, you know, different people that, you know, with my mom, you know, Chris’s mom and what it’s like, how hard it is for you know, each each family to take care of a family member, especially, you know, when you get to that very end stages where they’re, you know, um very much childlike, infant-like type. Dynamic. It’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a real thing, but yet there’s gifts to be available there as well. So yeah.

Justin:

Teaser.

Mark:

There you go.

Welcome to How I See It With me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Exactly. As long as you’re not worrying.

Justin:

Not worrying worrying.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s all right.

Mark:

Yeah. Good morning, Justin.

Justin:

Good morning.

Mark:

How are you?

Justin:

I’m worrying. I’m good. How are you?

Mark:

Your mind is turning. Yes. You’re not worrying, but yeah. That’s good Yeah, it’s always good to have something for your mind to chew on for a moment. I think uh I think that’s a little bit of what this podcast is. Just an opportunity to yeah. An appetizer, if you will, just to kind of

Justin:

Hopefully not a get your brain gets stuck kind of podcast, but more of a Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Speaking of your brain getting stuck.

Justin:

Yes. Just like mine.

Mark:

Just out of curiosity, if you were to uh think about it and granted that we’re uh think

Justin:

about my brain getting stuck. Yeah.

Mark:

That’s trippy. I was thinking about your brain getting stuck. But uh if you were to think about the ability to like longevity , okay, how long would you want to live? If you had, you know, the ability to nobody nobody’s guaranteed tomorrow, that kind of thing, I respect that. But if you in your mind, you know, when you kind of picture longevity, legacy, that kind of thing Do you have an age that kind of goes through your mind?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Uh well no. Uh well maybe.

Mark:

He’s still worrying folks.

Justin:

If you could see my face you’d see the loading spinner.

Mark:

I gotcha, yes. Um

Justin:

Um, I’m actually just started reading this book.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it your question ties right into kind of the introductory first chapter.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And the book’s called Uh Four Thousand Hours, I think.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But the concept is it’s so it’s a time management book.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And so far, you know, the premise, the first chap you know, kind of what it’s about is flipping time management on its head kind of idea. Because so many time management books and this ties into some of the conversations we’ve had, I w I wanna say, but So many time management books are about maximizing your productivity and the output, the number of things that you can accomplish in the same finite amount of time.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And So far this this again, I’m only an intro part, but it’s saying um We have such a finite amount of time. Why are we so worried about maximizing it to fit more stuff in? Hmm. And When we do that, the other big part of this the intro is saying when we do that, when you increase the amount of time you have, you put more stuff in it. Right? So it’s like I’m extra productive, which means I can take on this other thing, which means now I have to be more productive. And so you know, it’s like you clear out your inbox, your email inbox, and it fills right back up, right? Sure. I don’t know, it’s just like the so far that’s kind of the premise. But one of the things it talks about is medieval days, the concept of time wasn’t nearly as crucial. You woke up with the sun and you went to bed with the sun and you followed the natural cycles and when harvest came it’s time time to do harvest stuff and when the chickens hatched it was time to do chicken, you know, egg stuff.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Like you followed the seasons and cycles of nature versus these man made hours.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um and another part that I talked about tying back to your question, um, it’s saying We care so much about the time we’re spending because we only have a finite amount. If you had, you know, 10,000 years.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You could try everything. You wouldn’t be so worried about am I making the wrong choice with this j job choice or um who I’m gonna marry, right? It’s like yeah, well they’ll die out eventually or I will or I don’t know.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

But you know what I’m saying? Like the choices aren’t as crucial because you have so much time to consider you know alternatives and um So it just made me it’s I was kinda thinking about that already last night as I was reading that.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Just this idea of like, man, yeah. If we had so much more time, there’d be a l a much more relaxed feeling, I think, in our life.

Mark:

Would there be

Justin:

this kind of how I’m thinking about it, this idea of It’s not all so finite, you know what I mean?

Mark:

No, I know. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So

Justin:

you don’t feel the urgency, I gotta get this done, cause I gotta get to that thing, cause I gotta get to that thing. And I don’t necessarily know that that’s true, that it would relieve of r leave us with that, but

Mark:

I’m not I’m not buying that to be honest with you right off the bat, because I think we just feel that ten thousand years the same way we feel, you know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in that process. I mean, granted, it’s a fun thought to think about, but and I and I think we have the ability to establish margin even now.

Justin:

Yes, I think I haven’t read the book yet. I I feel like this is gonna be part of it, but but yeah, I agree. Keep going, sorry.

Mark:

No no so I’m I’m still coming back to you. Did you have in in other words, if you can’t do the ten thousand year option?

Justin:

Yeah. Um I don’t know because it depends on the vitality of the years, right? So if you Like let’s say you know five hundred years you could live. So you

Mark:

‘re saying in a realistic human spectrum.

Justin:

Oh that’s what we’re doing.

Mark:

Yes. Just in a five hundred years what wasn’t on the uh option list, neither ten thousand, but that’s okay.

Justin:

Okay. Up to uh one do I get that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um

Well, my answer’s the same. It depends on the vitality of those year years. Like I really don’t care for the idea of living sickly and having others have to you know take care of me in that sense. So if it was you know a good vital vitality until I was sixty five and then things are going downhill, well sixty eight’s good for me.

Mark:

I hear it.

Justin:

So it’s more about yeah.

Mark:

So would you say in

Justin:

when I say vitality, I don’t necessarily mean being able to do all the same things. I just mean being able to use my mind in a way that, you know That feels alive versus and I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t again I’m not I’m not aged to the point where I I can understand or empathize with that, but

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um so I would

yeah, it’d be really interesting to hear from the perspective of people who are older and what that looks like for them. But

Mark:

Yeah. And I think uh in all honesty, that’s just kind of what has prompted this for me ’cause I do tend to, you know, work with people, aging people, you know, and uh who wrestle and laying anxiety or, you know, even dementia and you know, and these kind of things. Plus, you know, I’ll I’d be lying if I’d say, you know, the passing of my mom and, you know, just routinely being in contact with my dad now more so as he’s, you know, in this aging process is really kind of piqued my interest in this whole aspect and I’ve you know not I’m I’m not saying I’ve researched it, but, you know, this process of aging. I mean, I like the way you said uh aged. You know, because we’re all aging. You know, in in the re the reality is we’re all aging. So it’s not like We get to a point and oh my goodness, I’m really aging now. You know, look at this or look at that, that’s a indicator of aging.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause it w it was funny, I was well I’ll change the age to protect the innocent, but you know, I was working with a a a a kid and you know and he was talking about his older sibling being three years older than him.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and just that difference ’cause his sibling is, you know, young teenager, adolescent, so, you know, muscle tone is developing, you know, and it’s like He’s three years younger and it’s just impossible, you know, to compete when they were, you know, f you know, similar at five and eight, maybe or you know, it was like Competition was a little but now there’s you know his older brother is aged to this point where it’s like muscle is just You know, starting to

Justin:

Yeah, especially in those teenage years, three years makes a difference.

Mark:

Exactly, tremendous difference, you know. And but so that’s still aging, you know, part of that aging process it was kinda fun to think about, but then uh, you know As I was thinking about, I’m I’m hearing another part that I’m hearing is that part that you’re kind of alluding to is That in some ways my vitality can be connected to my value. And I was, yeah, you know, I’ve been thinking about that process, you know, is that is that an Americanized, a Western world type thing, you know? Whereas I’m tending to lose my, you know, independence and becoming more dependent on other people, I can’t do what I used to do for myself. So therefore, you know, my value tends to diminish in that

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

In in this culture, I guess is does that make sense?

Justin:

It makes perfect sense and I definitely say that’s Yeah, a big part of my answer. Yeah. You know, in the back of my mind. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like once I stop bringing value then just pull the cord.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I I’m not sure that

Justin:

you’re saying it is very harsh Again, if you’re on that other perspective, you know, and reaching that you’re listening and you are bec you know, reaching that f further end of age or whatever and I I would never mean that for someone else.

Mark:

Yeah, and that’s the thing.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Because quite often when I’m talking with individuals, it’s like my my value, I’m not valuable. In this state or in this condition. And yet, if we spin that around and to the point of saying, okay, if you had a friend that was experiencing what you’re experiencing and going through what you’re going through and you knew that friend, would that friend’s value change, you know, for you? It’s like, no. Of course not. That’s they’re still my friend, and I’d have more empathy for them. I’d have more compassion for them. And yet we have a difficult time flipping that back around and extending that same perspective to ourselves.

Justin:

Which I think is a also ties into that conversation about uh our current culture and productivity and

Mark:

yeah you know

Justin:

what brings value, right, is I get stuff done or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So yeah, I definitely think that culturally that shifted where I don’t know, I feel like in previous ages, mm you know, uh um Ages of years.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I can’t think of the term. Uh the seventy eight hundreds. Yes, thank you. Wow. My brain is real real just slow today. Uh I I don’t have any value mark.

Mark:

You do. I and I’m patient. I’m happy to wait. Uh

Justin:

yeah, so like, you know, previous generations, yeah, that’s a good way to put it Um the I think the the mentality was so much different where every family member brought value in different ways. It wasn’t just about getting things done.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And there’s this honor in age, right? And there was this connection with, you know, your your

older because they you tended to all live in the same, you know, in a lot of cultures, in the same under the same roof, right?

Mark:

And some cultures still do.

Justin:

Yep. Yep.

Mark:

Which that’s why I was kinda asking that aspect of the is it, you know, a you know Western civilization productivity mindset that has actually devalued Aging, you know, or aged, you know. Well, as I I hadn’t gone I hadn’t gone that far, you know, in the whole thing, but it you know, it reminded it because um it did go to um Proverbs uh what twenty uh twenty-nine something where it talks about, you know, the the uh splendor of the young is their strength and the splendor of the, you know, old is their gray hair or, you know, men is their, you know, gray hair. And I’ve, you know to that point, you know, it’s like I don’t know as if we’re still looking at aging as a splendor

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, anymore. And you know, I I’ve I’ve probably mentioned it before, you know, with my my whole Caleb type dynamic in Joshua he talks about being as strong at eighty-five you know, and therefore he wants this hill country. He wants to, you know, and I and I there’s there’s definitely you know, numbers of people, you know, who have taken on great works or the desire to have a great work you know, in their 80s.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s like, yeah, I mean, and so that’s that’s kind of intrigued, this mindset of, okay, what makes that difference? you know, of one person saying, yeah, it doesn’t matter. I’m still, I still want to do, and the other person, and I think where you’re at, you know, some of it is that aspect of, you know, vitality, if you would. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I yeah, I I think, man. Yeah. I definitely think the value thing ties directly into my thoughts. Like I just And I d I don’t think I’m alone, right? I think y you already described like even talking that

Mark:

I hope you’re not alone. I’m right here.

Justin:

Older, but alone in my thinking.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

That as soon as I stop providing value, I don’t wanna burden anyone and you know, I think that’s a common maybe thought, but I know that’s for sure how I feel. Yeah. Whether I think that’s right or not. It’s just that’s definitely how I feel. Like

Mark:

But would i if I if I may, I’m not trying to be rude or anything, but you know

Justin:

No offense. Oh, yeah. I mean Um no. I’m not sure if it’s anti biblical either, but

Mark:

this is part of what we do on how I see it.

Justin:

I think it’s For me just a selfish perspective, you know what I mean?

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. Because Also, you know, my perception is that I’m yeah, I don’t know. Yeah. Just like if I’m not if I’m just draining to others in that they need to help me and they you know, all these things that um as much as they love me, what they love was who I was, not necessarily. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Oh a little slippery there. What they love is who I was.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, I’m still thinking about it. I think I’m Here’s here’s the continuum, you know, independence versus dependence.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If we if I may And I think there’s a point where as we shift further from independence, we tend to think our value declines as we head towards dependence. And yet, how many times have you heard of people who have said, you know You couldn’t you couldn’t buy the last three months, the last six years, the last two years, you know that I had with my parent or whatever because of the ability that I had to take care of them and spend time with them in a way that I never had before. You follow me?

Justin:

I do follow you.

Mark:

So it’s like that I respect and I think some of it is a a self versus others awareness. You know what I mean? It’s like the individual while head while heading towards dependence, they may tend to think of themselves as val devaluing. Whereas the individual, the caretaker, and I’m not saying in all cases, I realize there are caretakers who, you know, get tired, who get w but they they might even sacrifice themselves even to a degree for the sake of that caring for the other individual, which reflects the fact that the value has not decreased, but yet increased. In some ways. Does that make sense? And I realize it’s a a di uh a relational dynamic, but I that’s the you know, because I think And here here’s my here’s the difference. I think in some ways it can tie into our comfort with vulnerability. Mm-hmm. You know, we’ve talked about, you know, granted, and I and I th as I’m wrestling with this myself, I think, you know, in some cases the The is it it’s like Proverbs 25, 20 uh 2, where it talks about um yeah, also I can think of is splendor is God, let’s see.

Justin:

You want me to look it up?

Mark:

No. Okay. Uh in other words, it’s basically God is glorified in the hidden things. But it it’s the glory of God, there you go, to conceal a matter. Okay, but the glory of kings to search a matter out And I think, you know, this and uh not that I’m any king, but this has kind of been a searching out for me, a wrestling, if you will. Because like you said, I believe, you know, it’s God’s glory that our life is so complex. It’s not that there’s just one size fits all type dynamic. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I think that’s God’s glory that our life is so complex. There’s, you know, different aspects the vitality, you know, even is, you know, my mental health, my physical health, you know, my emotional health. my ability to, you know, do these different things and you know what what has an impact on that. I was I was I was talking with an individual the other day and uh He was saying that social, social involvement, you know, is the greatest, you know, predictor of long life. Whi which I could agree with, but it was funny when I when I kind of wanted to fact check that, you know, I kind of typed in longevity, you know, and greatest predictor and Mobility was another one, like you’re saying, you know, that vitality. Um, the length the the length of life that my parents, you know, my genetics, if you will. you know, factored into that. Uh hand strength was another, you know, you know, to where

Justin:

you gotta start shaking your hand harder.

Mark:

But yeah, there was just, you know, it was, you know, I would have loved to have been able to, you know, link one list, but it’s it’s more complex than that. You know, it’s like that research was saying you know, mobility and flexibility because they were the exercise group. But yeah, exercise isn’t necessarily always at the top of those lists.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But social well and definitely uh social involvement versus isolation was definitely you know, a predictor, you know, for longevity. You know, and granted, I’m not w worshipping longevity, but I’m thinking about it in a context of aging. And, you know, and and granted, I think, you know I guess my my passion, if you will, in the topic is to be able to recognize, okay, yeah, I can’t guarantee that we’re gonna all live to 85. But yet I believe there are things we can be doing now that might lead to a little more vitality or and I’m not saying that our vitality impacts our worth. That’s that’s the other wrestling that’s kind of been behind this. It’s like, no, you’re you still have And granted, I’m not that person at this point. But yet I’ve also seen, you know, and heard the, you know, the test, if you will, the testimonials from, you know people caregivers

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

for individuals and even you know people who were saying you know yeah that was you couldn’t trade that time.

Justin:

Yeah. So at the risk of uh Uh how do I put this?

Mark:

No risk, just go ahead.

Justin:

Uh how do like you answered the question, how what’s your comfort level with aging? What is the ideal age? What does it look like? How do you feel about how comfortable are you with the idea of you know having, you know, let’s A a broken down body that can’t do things so you depend on others. Or a broken nine down mind that can’t quite you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like how how how do you feel about those things? What is your

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Does that mix it?

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Be a little vulnerable with me. Of course. No

Mark:

sweat. That’s what I’m saying. There’s no risk. I am not a person that I mean it I w I think it would be fun You know, to be a uh uh what is what’s what do you call a person that makes uh hundred years that’s octagenary.

Justin:

Sentigenary.

Mark:

Sentigenary Yeah. Yeah, I think that would be kind of cool. But there again, it’s that do I still have basic fac the faculties to, you know, do that well, you know, because it’s like, yeah, there’s there’s so the but that’s not my goal I’ll be honest, you know, it’s like if if I did, if I could, that would be cool. But at the same time, yeah, I’m I’m happy to make ninety. You know, that kind of thing. And It’s funny because as I’m thinking about that, you know, it’s like I’m also recognizing I’m not going to have the same ability. And and I think that’s where I when I’m talking with people, they they had you know, the the premise or the perspective that yes, I’m gonna maintain, you know, all the abilities that I had at 50 right on up through till the day I die, you know, that kind of thing. And that’s not reality as far as I’m concerned.

Justin:

Or at least 60 or at least 70.

Mark:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I think

Justin:

always

Mark:

And I think when they hit those markers or when those other things come, you know, that’s a that’s uh a difficult process and I think you know our

Justin:

So again stop talking about them and talk about you. Is that difficult for you? It

Mark:

and that that’s that’s what I’m actually wrestling with is is the ability to recognize, no, I’m okay with the aging process. You know, and granted, I’m also doing that, I’m also looking at that. from, you know, my parents’ perspective. Both both my mom died at eighty five, my dad’s still eighty nine, you know, that kind of thing to where That’s my perspective on it.

Justin:

And Chris’s dads away as well.

Mark:

Yeah, but he’s, you know, so like you say

Justin:

pretty young.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So yeah, I mean that’s the benefit, right, to being around situations like that is it gives you a a better perspective on it.

Mark:

Well, it gives me a perspective. I don’t know whether it’s better, you know what I’m saying? Uh so I may be more comfortable. I may be more comfortable with that aging process. in the fact that yeah, you know, I recognize and and here again, I think I think I, I’m bringing it back to myself I have also wrestled with the fact that, you know, when I had you knew I had those blood clots, like, you know, and it’s like I think for me that was a that was a a a turning point. It’s like, you know, nobody’s guaranteed tomorrow. And I think I had bought into the lie, if you will, that if I do this, this, and this and this, I can live to be a hundred. You follow me? And it was like I was doing those things and not to be more, but but I, you know, if if things hadn’t gone as well as they did, I could have died, you know, at that point. It’s just a fact.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

So, you know, I think for me that was a that was a turning point ’cause I was able to recognize in some ways, okay Yeah, nobody’s guaranteed tomorrow, period. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. It doesn’t matter who you are. It doesn’t matter what you have. You know, each day is a gift. And so therefore, you know, and and yet it it’s funny as I was thinking about that gift, you know, how many times And I think, you know, faith factors into some of these issues, you know, that kind of thing. Do sense of purpose.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know, as and I think that’s a difficult thing. I’m not s I’m saying for myself, it would be difficult you know, to recognize a sense of purpose if I don’t have all my mental facilities type thing. Because I was thinking about it. You know, I think that is part of the um splendor of is that is that wisdom dynamic that older people have. And I think unfortunately you know, as a culture, we’ve tended to devalue that that wisdom because so often it’s connected with Um

Justin:

being out of touch.

Mark:

Be yes, yes, being out of touch or you know, just being stuck old fashioned, you know, when in reality Some of that’s just playing out wisdom that we could still benefit from today. And yeah , they

Justin:

could probably tell us why some of the fences were built. You know,

Mark:

yes, exactly. And to be able to say, you know what, that’s probably not such a good idea because people did that back in the twenties. you know, in this cyclical type, you know, governmental type thing, you know, it’s like they’ve seen some things that we can learn from and say, you know what, uh, no need to reinvent that wheel.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

you know.

Justin:

Yeah. It

Mark:

guy, you know, socialism type dynamics, you know, and granted there’s uh, you know, the upgraded socialism of our culture today. But you know, it is it is kind of interesting to think about how in a lot of cases, you know, if a person and I and I think it can be, you know, on both ends of the spectrum. You know, you talk with a parent of a of a down syndrome, it’s like that child has no less value, you know, but yet culturally we can say, well, no, in the womb, you know, this child’s gonna have these issues and we can dispose of it at this point. And I think we have that same disposable perspective in some cases, yeah, you know, as people age and I just wrestle with that.

Justin:

Yeah, I think that I think that’s awesome and I think yeah. I think if anything it Yeah, you’ve d uh Yeah this is bad. You’ve pulled me into the wrestle, right? To to kind of think be thinking about it and I can definitely tell you I haven’t been wrestling this, so like it’s kind of a new concept to me to even think about or or wrestle with it. And I can tell you I don’t like the idea of aging. Like this is my initial wrestling. It’s just like please no. Um, but you mention uh kind of having the mental you know, faculties diminish is kind of the thing that’s less appealing to you. I’d almost rather not know that I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Then have the mental faculties but the inability to do something about it. You know what I’m saying?

Mark:

So Uh if I may a clarification, you would you would wrestle with having all your mental faculties and then losing your physical ability to implement.

Justin:

Right. I think so.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

Right now what feels pain the most painful thinking about it, right? This idea that And not only is my mental faculties there in the desire to do things and and the knowledge to do things, but I can’t physically do them, but I’m also because my mental faculties are there, I know the drain that I am to others, right? Where like I guess I wouldn’t mind being a little bit senile because that would I w I hope relieve some of that burden. And I think that’s the thing that I’m probably the most afraid of.

Mark:

For you, don’t

Justin:

in aging, yes, is being a burden.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

And knowing it.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

So that’s the wrestling that I’ll have to do, either as I age and just recognizing that Being a burden isn’t always, you know, kind of like what you’re saying, that doesn’t diminish value.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But it certainly feels that way, right? Because yeah, I think that’s kind of how our culture you know, it treats each other and it kind of how we think culturally is like my values based on what I do.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

My output, my productivity, and the more productive the more valuable you are and That’s why we listen to people who get a lot of stuff done and that’s why we don’t listen to people who don’t. Like you know what I mean? It’s like our our culture is very much bent towards that. And so for me it’s very difficult to conceive of or you know, concede to being a burden and not bringing being productive, like output not being yeah. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah. And it and that’s the question I guess in some ways. Have have we in some ways made productivity a god?

Justin:

Oh yeah. Okay. Absolutely Yeah, I I definitely think so.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s a idol if you will.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean I’m very much again, my brain’s kind of tip towards that because it’s a book I’m reading and just it’s it’s very much saying the same thing. Again, I don’t know. I haven’t finished the book, but that’s kind of the premise it’s setting up. And it’s like, yeah, it’s that’s pretty true. Like so much about our cultures, about how to maximize how much we can do.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Can you think of a older person that you would I mean, want to live like on, you know. I

Justin:

I think that’s part of my struggle too. Um Because of the way our family is, I can’t really latch on to some family members and I’m like, that would be okay to be like that.

Mark:

Oh really?

Justin:

Yes. So I think that because I was thinking about that a little bit earlier. It’s just like I don’t really have that. And so what I think about for my kids is just I don’t want that for them. You know? ‘Cause I can’t picture and my parents aren’t quite old enough for that either. And Um that’s also a wrestling too, is like I don’t how unselfish can I be? Like I’m almost I’m honestly that brings anxiety, this idea of having to take care of my parents. Because I don’t know if I I’m that caretaker, right? Like or or how good I’ll be at that. I’m I’m not gonna say I won’t do it or whatever. I’m just saying like So that’s part of the the picture too, just like I don’t want my kids to have to wrestle that. But I obviously don’t have that choice necessarily. So I’m not I’m not saying that, but If I did, you know, I would definitely choose to live right up until I couldn’t be of you know of value and then

Mark:

granted I think there are end of life issues. You know, I think, you know, there is a I guess in some ways when I think of modern medicine, I think, you know pri previous generations that end of life transition, if you will, you know, there weren’t as many options. We couldn’t, you know, keep people alive or they couldn’t keep people alive back then. to the degree that we can now based on technology. So I’m w I’m I’m gonna recognize that as a separate issue You know, well, it’s tied. It’s it’s part of the complexity you know of you know that ability that we have to basically choose Not choose when we end our lives, but to a degree choose how much um support we do, you know, and I and I think about that when I think about support, it it does some ways come back to the, you know, the social you know, connections that people have because I think we can tend to underestimate how important that is. And I think, you know, I that was something that I was able to see, you know, in my father-in-law and you know, and you know, my mom and that kind of thing, how we we live in North Carolina. Yeah, and I think it’s another thing um between you and me, that fifteen years give or take, in age, makes a big difference.

Justin:

Yeah, for sure.

Mark:

You know, as far as cycle of life type things, what’s your exp our difference in experience at that point. But I was thinking about it in the context of how You know, we live Chris and I live in North Carolina, our parents New York and Pennsylvania. So we weren’t necessarily able, you know, to, you know, be, but I was so thankful in that process. that really the communities, you know, were a so much of the support and uh not excuse me, I apologize ’cause you know, with er with Chris’s dad, you know, she her siblings were in that area, that kind of thing. They were tremendous support. But you know, there was also external supports, you know, that came in to, you know, help watch and, you know, at times and I’ve definitely noticed it, you know, more with my parents ’cause my brother’s in Pennsylvania but still four hours away and, you know, it’s the people It’s the people that still plow out their driveway, you know, in the wintertime and you know, and you know, my dad, you know, is basically saying, Yeah, I’m I’m I’m gaining some weight here after your mom might be the way he’s eating a little bit, but no, he’s still eating pretty healthy, but you know He’s still eating food that people have dropped off from, you know, the funeral, and that’s been, you know, end beginning of end of August, you know. So, you know, that kind of thing, those those supports.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

I think that’s a that’s a tremendous blessing, you know, when we think about that difference of longevity between, you know, socially engaged and involvement. you know, and versus the isolation. And I think, you know, that can tie in to when we don’t see ourselves as valuable, you know, we tend to pull back

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and head more towards isolation, you know, because we can’t be as independent as we are. And you know Or as we were.

Justin:

Yeah, I love the stories that I heard about your mom. Just you know, if if I if I’m gonna get old, I wanna get old like your mom. Is that fair?

Mark:

That’s fair. That’s fair.

Justin:

Yeah, and she didn’t seem to intentionally isolate, like and I I don’t know, I just a lot of things you said, you know, people would kinda be lying to her at church to connect with her and just stuff like that and I think that would definitely be a desire of mine as I age is to be involved in engaged in community and have that value that it’s that without a doubt was obvious with your mom, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think so when I t think about the ball uh again, this is all I’m this is why I’m so slow. It’s like I’m just thinking it all out. I would say I’ve given this less thought than just about anything else we’ve talked about. Which is uh

Mark:

in all fairness, like you say, it was uh, you know, something uh, you know, we had kinda sprung on you a little bit. We you know, had it as a topic, but it wasn’t something that yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Most of the time though, things I’ve thought a lot more about in this one, I’m just saying it’s I think I avoid thinking about this honestly.

Mark:

That’s fair.

Justin:

Because I think it does It brings anxiety me to me to this idea of being a drain on society, specifically my family. But

Mark:

But I I like I like the fact not that you’re feeling anxious, but I I like the fact that you’re able to express that because it’s like, okay, you know, how what do we need that what do we need to do in some ways to reverse as people are aging that this fear dynamic. And granted, you know my ability to have children, you know, if I did or didn’t have children, you know, who’s gonna take care of me and what you know, I respect that’s all out there, but At the same time, I I my I guess like you say, it’s just a passion for me that people don’t necessarily connect that value with vitality.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But

Justin:

well vitality too, I think I think it’s also important to define that.

Mark:

Agreed. And that’s where I was thinking like you were sharing with my mom. She had all of her mental facilities. She may not have been able to do it physically. But it was that mental capacity that was there, you know, to be able to connect and engage and that kind of thing in such a way that made it, you know, possible. And I and you know, I think, you know um with Chris’s dad, you know, he still had, you know, much of his mental capabilities, you know, and, you know, it was his physical body that was, you know, giving out in the process of the cancer type stuff. So it was a different you know yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I think Again, just going back to her mom, it sounds like she was very engaged with others and very considerate of others. So she didn’t really Again, this is all based on your story. So you you could have coded this. But uh just I get this perception that she wasn’t trying to draw everyone into her life. She’s trying to connect in theirs.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and and so the value you know. But then as a result, people also cared about her. And it but it that wasn’t her goal and that wasn’t her desire. And I think for me as I wrestled with this in the moment, like I I think I wanna be of that mind to be about still being engaged with others and and trying to like ask them questions about their life and kind of you know ooh I just whacked my mic. See

Mark:

you’re getting compassionate. You’re getting passionate about this now. You’re starting to talk with your hands.

Justin:

That’s right Um but yeah, being able to connect with others and and I don’t want to say bring value in that way, but bring value even to my own life to serve others and and to feel like Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So I think I think and but again, if the mental facilities decline to where I can’t really do that, you know Maybe it’s okay because I won’t realize it.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

And that’s you know but if I can’t do stuff with my hands, mm

Mark:

at

Justin:

least like someone wheel me to the the church or whatever so I can Yeah. Ask, you know, how how that kids doing or whatever. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

To me that’s kind of yeah.

Mark:

And remember the person’s name, hopefully.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Exactly. Which Again, it’s it’s it’s interesting to perceive like you know uh the beginning with the end in mind, kind of fast forwarding the end and thinking about it. Um I when I think about it through the lens of your mom and the stories you’ve told, it’s like that feels more palatable. But I don’t necessarily see anything like that in my culture. Where I live.

Mark:

I guess.

Justin:

Where we are. You know.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Think about our church. I I don’t think of someone older in that kind of state. where people kind of make a beeline to that person. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so it’s just kind of hard for me to picture it. I gotcha. I definitely don’t think it’s impossible, I’m just saying that. I think that’s part of what makes it uh harder to wrestle with. It’s just like how do I fit in the culture that I’m in right now when I’m no longer who I am. You know, like at this age.

Mark:

Who I am right now.

Justin:

Right, exactly. Yeah. Um and I just think that’s not something to even worry about. Right?

Mark:

Like I think. And I think it it’s interesting when we think about the aging process. you know, it’s like who I am right now. Well all

Justin:

you take care of me when I when I’m decrepit and you’re a hundred and octogenarian.

Mark:

I will see what I can do, Justin. I will see what I can do.

Justin:

It’s on record, folks. If he’s not taking care of me in my decrepit,

Mark:

I will say part of the aging process for me, the probably the one of the bigger factors I’ve noticed is my eyesight

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

So like you say I can’t guarantee you know

Justin:

By the time you’re a hundred they can probably replace your eyeballs, so it’s okay

Mark:

But like you say, I’ll do I’ll do my best to keep your beard you know as as as coiffed as you keep it. You know, it’s like I you uh your hairstyles are pretty high maintenance for a man that can’t see well.

Justin:

Yeah, you can just tell me it looks good. That’s what I mean. I won’t really know because I’ll be in that state.

Mark:

No, like you say, yeah, as long as as long as Megan can still do your hair for you, we’re we’re good shape.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah

Justin:

Well I honestly hope I outlive her so she doesn’t have to deal with me in that state. I’m gonna be honest.

Mark:

Yeah. Well that was that was another that was another thing, you know. It’s like uh Chris and I had that little uh couples type contract early on that, you know, I had agreed, you know, in some ways to pass away after her.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that you know, and I think other couples do that, but when but when the uh when I got the the PE there, you know, it was like uh pulmonary embolism. Oh, yeah. But you know, th when when I had that issue, it’s like, okay, I can’t I can’t I can’t guarantee you know, and it really was kind of a You know, I and maybe that’s a part of what has, you know, in combination with, you know, my mom and Ernie, you know, and with my dad and, you know, Linda is, you know, surviving, you know, partners for, you know, spouses. It just makes me think about that as far as, you know, w you know, what the the next years look like, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s just and I and I think that’s the the difficult part for me because you you were talking about even our church, but you know, like Ray Moore would be somebody, you know, that you you just routinely, you know Aging person who you just routinely look forward to seeing and you know, when they walk into a room it’s like, you know, people make the effort.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, in that case, do you know, because he’ll, you know, routinely ask about the kids, you know, when we see him and that kind of thing. So just kind of thinking about that, you know, that they’re and the other thing I was thinking uh based on what you want to you know, maintain what you have right now in comparison to other people that sh you are surrounded by. You know, and I think as we age, it’s like you would you’re okay with where you’re at right now And granted, as long as the majority of the people stay around you that are around you, you know, another ten years It might still be very similar. You follow me?

Justin:

No. Well but I’m trying. Yeah, it’s okay. I’m with you. In other words, picture

Mark:

picture yourself at my age.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Your lifestyle probably isn’t gonna change a whole lot more, even though you may be thinking it will. You know, you want to maintain what you have right now.

Justin:

I don’t I don’t know. That’s what I thought I heard. No, I think I’m okay with getting into sixties, seventies. Like I think I’m okay with the kind of the declining abilities, but A reasonable amount. You know, like I I I’m not afraid of that really. Okay. It’s really about the cliff that I that brings me the nervousness. It’s like Yeah, yeah, I have a stroke and now like you know, I need h assistance with things and you know, or mentally it’s like I what the is it? You know, like I don’t know, like there’s some of those That cliff is what makes me nervous. Um, I think if it’s a slow decline, yeah. I don’t know. I feel like that’s what I’ve been dealing with for the last decline. ten years, right? So it’s like And I think obviously the pace of that increases the older you get. But I’m just saying I think I don’t think that’s what really makes me nervous as much as Well, yesterday, you know, he was a stalwart in our community and today we now have to take care of him, you know. Maybe it’s a day, maybe it’s over the course of a year quick decline. Whatever that but I’m saying that kind of that cliff nature is

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Really the thing that that I r kind of wrestle with that anxiety. But Yeah. I don’t control this.

Mark:

Nope.

Justin:

You know, I know I think Uh if I had imagined y in your mind’s eye, you know, you’re this this guy out in the garage doing, you know, tinkering, doing things even when you got you know, you’re bent over and can barely stand straight, but you’re still out there p nailing some wood or whatever, like

Mark:

tinkering.

Justin:

Yeah, tinkering, exactly. I I think That’s kind of your perception. My perception is hopefully something like that too. I know. But it’s like we don’t have any control over that exactly or becoming reality.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

I also I’m also not belittle belittling that vision I think began with the end in my I think there’s something to be said about I’m gonna live to be tinkering in my garage till I’m a hundred. Mm-hmm. I think there’s something about that idea that can keep you vital vi keep your vitality to a degree. But back to what I was saying, we don’t have any control. Agreed. And I think

Mark:

And I’m not saying yeah, we do. I just And I think if anything, I want to recognize what we do that conveys value to the aging, you know, in that process of so often I think it’s difficult to maintain that, you know, that perspective of having value when I am no longer You know, vite you know, when I when I am no longer productive, I want to separate vital from productive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I believe everybody is vital.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But even when they’re not

Justin:

Productive.

Mark:

Seemingly productive, yes, from an output standpoint. Yeah.

Justin:

Another recent example that’s very real for me would be Gene.

Mark:

A

Justin:

good friend of ours who was very involved with us at CR and he and I had m um tons of awesome conversations and kind of were accountability partners to a degree and stuff like that. And as a result, I got to know him and his life really well and got to learn a ton from him. It was just

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

I really value that relationship and I always will.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um, you know, he played music, he played the fiddle and he would play with us at CR and I mean those are my favorite memories playing music by far is being up there on stage with him, you know, him playing the fiddle or the steel guitar. He he killed the steel guitar too. Yeah. For a minute there. And then there was a cliff where he just couldn’t play fiddle like that anymore and he would stumble through it and he’d have to get help up on the stage and help back off. And I saw that kill him. You know what I mean? I saw that like inability to do th do the things he loved just mentally break him down. Um and I I think you know, he basically said, That’s it, I’m done. You know, and it was within a year or two years or whatever that he passed away. And that’s one of the closer examples I’ve had of dying from old age, basically, right? ‘Cause I’ve I’ve had people die in my life that were you know, older but typically it was a sickness or you know, kinda like we said, um, I think with Ernie where the cancer it’s uh it’s like there’s a villain there and you can kinda chalk it up to that and that feels a little bit different than just kind of old age decline. D decline, yeah.

Mark:

Sure. Um

Justin:

and I I look at what he went through and I was like, I don’t want that either. I know he didn’t want it, you know? And he was like This is taking too long to die. What’s going on? You know, like get me out of here. And uh I think very much as a man who had such a rich life, such a rich life. when it’s when he’s again that ability to output stopped. He just wanted out and I think that’s definitely I relate to that and I feel like that’s how I feel about it. And yet, um, you know Again, we don’t control that and

Mark:

philosophical question. Do you do you think there is if when we think about a loving God like we talk about, do you think there is you know, he takes that into consideration in that part?

Justin:

I think so.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

I I mean I I le uh yes, I believe so. But I also know that he does things we don’t want all the time.

Mark:

I get right

Justin:

so there’s a things that causes growth.

Mark:

And I and I think I think sometimes, you know, when we think about the fruits of the spirit, you know, all that, uh, you know, I I think That process can also increase our patience.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Our ability to say, okay, God, you know, and and there again, faith is a part of that. you know, that process and I can understand, you know, people d who don’t have a faith, you know, will definitely wrestle more W with the anxiety in that process of what comes next type thing. And I feel for people like that. Don’t get me wrong. I have, you know, compassion for them. And you know, that’s where I want to I guess that’s another part of that desire that I have to convey, no, your life has purpose and it does have value and you’re still here because maybe you need to understand a little more of what you know the purpose is for your life to be able to have relationship with Jesus Christ in that process. And it’s from my perspective, it’s to your benefit that you’re still here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If you’re not if you’re not ready, you know, if you don’t have relationship with Jesus Christ to, you know, spend eternity, you know with him, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, it’s just yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, I think that definitely That’s part of the c the conversation as well, certainly, because as believers, it’s like as soon as my life here is not such that I’m feel good. Yeah. Take me to the next one, because this is way better. So that’s part of it too, but But yeah, again, just all this kind of for me comes back to faith and and I don’t have control and you know, if I end up being the the sick person that has to be taken care of. Basically the scenario I don’t want. I still trust God in that. I still trust he has a purpose in it. That my kids are meant to learn something from that that the caretakers involved, like that there’s purpose in it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I know that’s true. I hear you. I w I’m I hundred percent have faith that that’s what he’s meant for me if that’s how it’s supposed to go That doesn’t mean that’s what I want. I want the opposite, right? Like I want to be vital and then dead. That’s what I want.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like a good clean car crash right when I hit 85 would be good

Mark:

Be careful what you ask for. But no, I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin:

Or you know, fall asleep and then you don’t wake up. I mean that’s that’s that’s always the Yeah. Dream.

Mark:

No, I get ya. Yeah.

Justin:

Uh yeah.

Mark:

And yeah.

Justin:

But again, I can say after wrestling for one hour that I’m okay with whatever it’s gonna be. you know, I’ve surrendered it, right? Like and I think that’s you know, but it’ll be an ongoing wrestling as I do age and as it becomes more real.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

But um Yeah, ultimately I’m okay with well however it goes, because I know it’s part of his plan.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And if that’s again, if my kids go through the hardest time taking care of me. It’s probably good for ’em. Based on who they are right now, I can say they can learn to serve a little bit.

Mark:

Okay. That’s fair. Yeah, as far I’m not saying that’s fair as far as you’re being their father and casting casting down that view. But yeah. Yeah No. So yeah, know that you’re uh know that your life has value even as you uh lose productivity, Justin. In that and so we’ll we’ll have to do an update. Um we’ll have to catch an update on your book. That you’re reading to see.

Justin:

See where it goes.

Mark:

Yeah, see where it goes.

Justin:

Hopefully it’s so good that I can’t help but make you do an episode on it.

Mark:

Well, I’m will I’m willing to I’m willing to be a part of it. But yeah. So I I appreci just know that uh I appreciate your wrestling this morning in that in that process and Yeah.

Justin:

But I appreciate yours the wrestling you’ve done to kind of bring into this conversation. It’s it’s good stuff.

Mark:

And for all and granted, I I don’t think our uh our listenership is uh that aged according to our uh But yeah, doing doing what you can to think about the plan for the end with the beginning. Plan for the from the beginning with the end in mind. Yeah. So think about it in that process of okay How am I planning for my future? Not that God isn’t in control of it, but yeah.

Justin:

What kind of old person do you want to be? And how can you How can you work towards that right now?

Mark:

You know, uh

Justin:

for me it’s relational, so

Mark:

I do and I do think it’s on I think it’s uh it’s fair that you know People tend to age as I s interact with people, you know, I think there are tend to be two groups, you know, those people who are less fearful and therefore are more engaged and those who are more fearful and kind of tend to be more cantankerous, if you will. Um You know, because I I I think it does come back to viewpoint in some ways as far as, you know, if it’s mine to control you know, and I can’t control what my body is doing and the way it’s falling apart, you know, that’s a difficult process. But if we can basically say, okay, you know, there’s a purpose in it, even even in you know, the circumstances, you know, I think that frees us up to be able to say, okay, you know, this is this is This is my body for God to use. You know, that kind of thing. And um, here again, I probably I don’t know whether you and I have shared it, but um i over the mic, but you know, as I was thinking about that as um it came to mind as I prayed you know, over my mom’s grave. You know, because I realize it w the internment, if you will. I realize, you know, we were putting her physical body in the ground. you know, she was no longer there. But I was able in that moment to recognize how God had gifted her with that physical body in such a way that she used it and well God used it in her life to make her who she was. you know, in her spirit as as as her s you know what I’m saying to where and so that so in some ways that’s my view of uh you know Or uh limitations to where, you know, I think we see limitations as being wrong, bad. But yet, you know, so often it is the limitations that make us into something

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

better.

Justin:

Who you are.

Mark:

Yeah, who we are. And I think, you know Yeah, my so m in that my process is to be able my desire would be to be able to be a joy-filled person, you know, even as I experience the limitations that come with the aging process. Yeah. That’s that’s my de and I and so therefore, you know Do I get frustrated when Do I get frustrated when I bang my head against the other side of a closet because I can’t get my eyes far enough away from something to see it like I used to? Sure I do, but you know, it’s like, okay, Mark, you gotta go you gotta get a f stronger light, you gotta get your readers on, you gotta do something. And I still get f frustrated with that when I can’t do what I once did.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yet I’ve also come to the realization that, you know, I’m not as strong. Physically as I once was. But you know, it’s like, okay, there’s no use blowing your back out again just to think you’re still as strong as you were.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, so yeah, I wrestle with those things, don’t get me wrong, in that aging process, but I’m also able to say, okay, God. How are you, how are you developing the fruits of the spirit in my life based on this? You know, and it does come back to, okay. I gotta ask. I gotta ask somebody for help. You know, I got I gotta I gotta ask one of those strong young men whose you know splendor is John or you know or Lizzie, you know, that or you know at times Chris. I’ll quite often rely on Chris. It’s like, okay, you know, she’s right there. What does that say? You know, ’cause I can’t see it anymore, you know, to the degree that I once did. You know, but I am learning in that way to depend on, you know, Chris and, you know, it’s like, hey John, okay. I’m not asking you to blow your back out either, but you know, between the two of us, you know, I can contribute my twenty-five percent and you know, yeah, that kind of thing. So yeah, it is it is uh and it And I will say at this point, I think I’ve I’ve learned I’m learning to value. I know you kind of refer to me as the lone wolf person, but um I think in some ways I am Processing that, the value of that in that process of, yeah, I can, but is is it now a greater strength of mind to be able to unify some people? And say, hey, can I have a hand? Can we do this? You know, because there’s a lot to be said for that as well. So like you say, I mean, it’s yeah. It’s the glory of God to conceal a matter. It’s the glory of kings to search it out.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You’re doing it.

Mark:

Oh well, I’m working on it. I can’t see it.

Justin:

Dragging me along for the ride.

Mark:

Does that make sense in the process of things?

Justin:

It does.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I had a vivid and hilarious And uh begin with the end in mind mind vision. Yeah. I’ll share before we drop.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I just had this idea of like being very involved relationally and yet not having all my uh facilities and I just envisioned accidentally peeing myself And I want to be the guy who makes hilarious jokes about that. And everyone in the room to remember that and like hold on to that for when they’re old. Does that make sense? Like that’s the kind of old I want to be.

Mark:

Yes. That you don’t take yourself too seriously.

Justin:

And like this is part of the deal. Yeah. You know? And

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You you’ve you’ve just relieved some of your own anxiety about that process. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s my end of life vision.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

Relieving myself. Nice job. Accidentally. And uh, you know, leaving with a good joke as I exit or as as I’m wheeled out by someone else.

Mark:

There you go. Justin will be saying something about that sock was getting a little too dry.

Justin:

I’ll have to look that joke up.

Mark:

Well, no, that’s off the cuff. So like you say, you won’t find it out there. But yeah, I can respect uh your sense of humor in that process.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Well thanks for

Mark:

see it. Thanks for sharing, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah, thank you. No problem.

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click.

As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.