Justin:

Were you would you say you were born ready?

Mark:

Um, definitely not born ready. I am uh I am getting ready and it takes me longer the older I get. ‘Cause I just realized I even forgot my glasses. I didn’t forget ’em there ‘s a lot of things.

Justin:

It’s funny ’cause I was gonna say, how hard can it be ’cause you got shorts and a t shirt And then you said the glasses. Yeah. You know what? That’s a good point. Because the older you get, the more you gotta

Mark:

Accessorize. Yeah, I used to think I didn’t need to accessorize, you know, but now I’m starting to understand that sometimes

Justin:

Sometimes you like to be able to see what you wrote. I do. You know? I do. a handy thing to be able to do.

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. through thoughtful conversations. Speaking of what you wrote, you got he’s got his uh

Mark:

this is uncharacteristic

Justin:

That’s right. He’s got a tablet in front of him. And when I say tablet, I mean what Mark means when he says tablet. Which is one of those flipover notebooks.

Mark:

There you go. Yeah, so when you hear that that fluttering of pages, you know, it’s not just my fingers, you know, going across the screen silently.

Justin:

When I say no one likes I I I shouldn’t say that. I have no idea. But I always hated those notebooks because of the flip over nature. It’s like

Mark:

Really?

Justin:

Yeah. I I don’t know why.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

I I just I n I have negative thoughts towards

Mark:

Now see I I I can I think, you know, being able to write it down just helps me to be able to communicate better. Yeah.

Justin:

I’m more specifically referring to the vertical format.

Mark:

Yeah, I understand the format that I’m using, but it’s like Yeah, I just I would get more frustrated by your format just because I’m not used to it. Yeah. And that would be a distraction for me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yes. But that’s just another way that we’re different but still value one another in the midst of it.

Justin:

I mean, if it’s not clear, I I think it’s awesome that you have a flip over notebook that you take notes on It’s like that’s how we’re different. That’s right.

Mark:

So speaking of differences, are you are you different than Megan?

Justin:

Am I how am I not different? No, yeah, of course I’m getting out my tablet.

Mark:

Oh. I sense a little tablet jealousy here. You were you were feeling naked in comparison. Yeah.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

But uh you’re different? You’re different than Megan?

Justin:

Yes, very different.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I mean there’s some you know, obviously um the way we think about things we’re aligned in a lot of things, but

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But also the way we think about things we’re not a lot. Yeah, so very different.

Mark:

And I think that’s where I’m at today is the way we think about things. is different. And I think, you know, in our podcast our desire is to create an understanding.

Justin:

How long does it take you to start your tablet

Mark:

It’s as long as it takes me to find a pen or a pencil, typically a pen.

Justin:

But you have to flip through several pages. Well no, I typically

Mark:

I typically keep it to an open page. That way I’m almost ready for the thing because it it’s like each page is a file, if you will.

Justin:

But how does it not flip back on you

Mark:

Well, it’s ’cause I just lay it down like this.

Justin:

I see it. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Unless a strong wind comes up and just blows the whole thing out. Well, yours would probably be a little less susceptible than mine.

Justin:

Unless it rained and then

Mark:

But

Justin:

both of ours would be broken.

Mark:

Both of ours would be.

Justin:

I’m sorry, I interrupted you. You were saying I don’t even know anymore because I interrupted you.

Mark:

Because you’re different, you think differently than Megan.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you are different than Megan. And I think when we are able to recognize those differences aren’t bad.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

We’re far more able to understand where our spouse or other people are coming from.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And f recently or or like to say, maybe I’ll go back, um are you familiar with uh Gary Chapman’s five love languages? I know we’ve talked about love styles, but love languages Yes?

Justin:

Yeah, and in fact we linked to it in one of the episodes way back.

Mark:

I think we probably did.

Justin:

I know we didn’t do an episode called the Five Love Languages, but I know we talked about it in one. I can’t remember which one it was.

Mark:

That’s all right. But

Justin:

that’s how many we have now.

Mark:

Well, speaking of that, could you name the five languages?

Justin:

Okay. Gifts.

Mark:

Okay. I’m putting my thumb up in here and

Justin:

it’s got a thumb up. All right, one down.

Mark:

You know there’s five.

Justin:

Yes. Affirmations are words. Words of affirmation. Thank you.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Time spent.

Mark:

Quality time.

Justin:

Um touch.

Mark:

Yep, physical touch.

Justin:

And Dang it. Linda’s yelling. She’s got it.

Mark:

Oh, by the way, it’s Linda’s birthday today.

Justin:

Happy birthday, Linda. That’s right. It won’t be when you listen to this.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

Hopefully you do listen to this, but Uh um what is it, Linda? Give me a hint.

Mark:

It begins with an A

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

that’s close. Acts of service.

Justin:

Exactly.

Mark:

Acts of service.

Justin:

Okay, yeah, I think yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t think that one jumped out because of the time spent. I think sometimes I conflate those.

Mark:

Okay. Well

Justin:

and uh and I

Mark:

quality time is that a desire to be with someone.

Justin:

Yeah, that makes sense. You know,

Mark:

even if it’s just just I shouldn’t say just even if it’s sitting on a couch, you know, watching a movie together. That can be quality time. Yeah. It’s not, you know. But acts of service is, you know, I recognize.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. I realize you’ve had a long day and I can do these things. Maybe not as well as you, but when I do these things, it reflects the fact that, you know, I’m I’m thinking about you and I care to do these things in some ways that You don’t necessarily have to. And it just reflects the fact. And the same way with gifts. It reflects the fact in some ways that I was doing something and I thought about you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So that conveys

Justin:

funny how you you just described a couple of ’em and you described them from an outward view. ‘Cause that’s ’cause that’s how Mark is. He’s loving.

Mark:

I’m sorry man.

Justin:

I thought of them from my perspective, like what I like to get That’s how I am, folks. So let’s move on from love. What’s your point, Mark? We’ve already talked about love languages.

Mark:

We have, but it seems like we still got a ways to go. Because we need to re

Justin:

How we love, not how they love.

Mark:

But we need to recognize that uh those gifts are reciprocal.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I do tend to want

Justin:

the

Mark:

things that I tend to want to give.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s what makes it a language.

Justin:

And the work is to give what they want and And that’s the work.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So now that being said, um Gary Chapman did further research and that’s where, you know, it it may break down a little bit for me because we’ll ha I’ll have to look back at notes and that kind of thing. But I thought it was fascinating. Have you ever, in the process of loving Megan, okay, have you ever got to a point where you made a mistake?

Justin:

You

Mark:

have to think that long?

Justin:

That’s the joke, uh course, yeah.

Mark:

You’ve made mistakes. And there’s even been a part of you that fully acknowledges you made a mistake.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And as hard as you try.

Justin:

I don’t like where we’re going with this. Just

Mark:

kidding. Justin’s feeling uncomfortable. As hard as you try to apologize. It just seems like you’re not saying it correctly. There’s something that’s getting lost in the translation

Justin:

So in our relationship, it tends to go the other way. I don’t let her off the hook with a sorry

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah. ‘Cause what you’re describing, I know exactly what you’re saying, and it looks exactly like that in reverse.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And it’s not because it’s not for her lack of trying

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s a gr that

Justin:

Yes. Yes. I know the situation you’re referring to.

Mark:

It just typically happens in the other direction.

Justin:

Yes

Mark:

versus where I was trying to put you in a corner. No, but being

Justin:

I’m in a corner still, just the other corner.

Mark:

That being said, I wanted to with that mindset of love language, okay, I want to recognize Gary Chapman’s research developed that there are five apology languages. And I

Justin:

Can I pause you real quick. Is that the same thing with love languages in that there’s it’s bi-directional, like I may apolog

Mark:

yes.

Justin:

Yes. The way I apologize maybe yet isn’t the way the person wants to receive apologies.

Mark:

That’s exactly right.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

So interesting. In other words, when I apologize, you know, I’m gonna apologize in a certain way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I’m also likely wanting other people to apologize to me in that way. I’m I’m thinking about Justin at this point. So I gotta go from my perspective to others’ perspective and vice versa.

Justin:

Well and this is perfect. The one example we just talked about where I don’t let her off very easy. She wants that for me. Instant for forgiven forgiveness. Then let’s talk about it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And I’m like, that’s not this ain’t that’s not forgiveness. So this is this is great.

Mark:

Yes, and and I think so often, and I think if you’re in any relationship This is kind of interesting to think about. Okay. It may be this may be a podcast you may have to listen to more than once, but at the same time, the information is there. And you can even go on Gary Chapman’s site to be able to

Justin:

link to it.

Mark:

Yeah. You’ll be a just like you’re able to, you know, find your love language. you’re able to find your apology language as well to recognize, okay, I’m one or one or more of the five. And being able to because as we talk about it a little more, I think it’s gonna make sense.

Justin:

It already does.

Mark:

Yeah, well but I uh and so Out of characteristic, I I want you to feel free to make this a conversation, but I’m gonna kind of go through the five

Justin:

Let’s do it.

Mark:

In such a way that

Justin:

Is it okay if I interject?

Mark:

Of course. Of course. And I want you to be able to. It’s just I think, you know, it’s gonna make sense. I don’t necessarily like to hear my voice that

Justin:

pretty bad at being just quiet, so I don’t know if I can

Mark:

so First apology style. Okay.

Justin:

Number one. I got my thumb up.

Mark:

Number one, yes, is expressing regret.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

All right.

Mark:

I want to be able to hear That you know simply saying simply saying I’m sorry isn’t enough. When you said that about Megan, you want you want something more. If this is your style, you want something more than just sorry You and you know it it’s interesting because I’ll in in my office I’ll hear these different styles from different people and I’ve experienced them even in you know relationship with Chris but

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

unfortunately and we we we talk about this too we do we do we we did pride a while back didn’t we

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

is that Ren Relic?

Justin:

That was the last that was the one. Yes, yes. So the time you hear this, it will be a few ago. Yes.

Mark:

So pride and guilt.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. sometimes get in the way of us being able to express regret. Okay? But that aside, okay A person who has this style wants to hear that you have a heartfelt desire to acknowledge what you did wrong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me, you’re willing to take ownership. And it doesn’t, and it and here’s where it’ll come into play sometimes. It it doesn’t help if it just seems that you’re sorry for getting caught.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? There’s a difference there. If you’re just sorry because you got caught, that’s different than expressing heartfelt regret.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That given that opportunity, I do it differently.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I recognize that what I did had an effect on you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m and I’m remorseful about that. And so here again.

Justin:

Yeah, in in and sometimes the words I’m sorry don’t even matter if this is what you care about. So if you express regret, that’s good enough. I hear the apology

Mark:

in it. Yes.

Justin:

Because I relate to this one.

Mark:

So that being said, I’m gonna I’m gonna express like three ideas that this might be you if.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

type thing as far as that goes. Is it this might be you if you want someone to acknowledge the hurt they caused, okay? You and you want someone to generally express the regret of their actions. And you desire to feel validated in your emotions.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Ding ding ding. All three One, two, three, punch.

Mark:

So just just as a discussion.

Justin:

Very uncomfortable. I didn’t know this was going to be so uncomfortable.

Mark:

But you’re doing a great job. So that’s

Justin:

seen and tar targeted at the same time.

Mark:

Do you really? You’re very you’re feeling very vulnerable at the moment. But know that we’re here to help in that process. So Hold up two fingers. Number two. Number two.

Justin:

Thumb up in the pointer figure.

Mark:

Good deal. Accepting responsibility. And I w and I and I’m gonna recognize these are nuanced. Yeah. You know, but I think it’s important in our relationship to be able to recognize that diversity. When someone earnestly admits they were wrong to do what they did. Along with acknowledging the fault, their fault in the situation. You follow me? So it’s about the responsibility, not necessarily the regret.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

You follow me? There’s a difference because a person might want to look at, you know, okay, this is what I did.

Justin:

So it’s like I’m not sorry about what happened, but I accept that what I did is causing this circumstance.

Mark:

So so basically name naming the mistake. And I’m able to, you know, it’s a easier, it’s easier in some ways, okay, to be able to say you were right than I was wrong. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But when I’m able to admit I was wrong and I’m taking responsibility for it, that carries more weight than just acknowledging that you were right. You ever have that in your conversations with someone?

Justin:

Yeah. Do you have more bullet points? I think I need more.

Mark:

Yeah, no problem at all. Um, so you may be, this may be your style if you want people to take ownership of the hurt they caused. Taking that responsibility. And you want someone to clearly state what they did wrong to prove they can learn from the mistake. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah, f I think for me it’s hard to differentiate this one from number one.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

They almost feel

Mark:

And that’s why we’re gonna go through all five.

Justin:

Yeah. I I’m starting to see based on the second one that there there is some overlap or some like some yeah, like nuance to it.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

All right.

Mark:

And and you be the the difference in s in responsibility that you you don’t want to hear excuses. Okay, because if someone’s just giving you excuses, it’s not like they’re you don’t feel as if they’re accepting responsibility.

Justin:

Yeah It’s interesting because I’m processing my own like how do I think about this?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think for me Yeah, it’s interesting. I think I’m definitely number one in the sense that if you express some excuses But you truly express the regret for what happened. I’m okay with the excuses. I can I can let those slide.

Mark:

You can understand.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I can see how it could be the other way where You’re I don’t care if you’re s you regret you know, whatever. What I care is that you see how to change it, you know.

Mark:

And I and I go ahead, sorry.

Justin:

I was just gonna say I have done I ha I do that to a degree as well, so I could but um like wanting to believe that the regret translates into

Mark:

uh

Justin:

a t an understanding for the future, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s nice.

Mark:

And I and I th and I think that’s what makes this so interesting. Because I think we’ve all been in those moments where I’m trying to say I’m sorry to the best of my ability, but it just seems as if it gets lost in the translation. because that other person is looking for something different than I’m giving them.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I may very well be willing to take full responsibility. But I’m not necessarily demonstrating a regret to you that says, I am sorry for the inconvenience that created for you. And the effect that it had on you in that process. Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s why I’m saying this is this is gonna be a little bit of a nuanced thing, and you’re gonna

Justin:

be smiling because It made me think of the fact that sometimes I’m perfectly willing to forgive until someone starts apologizing.

Mark:

Ooh.

Justin:

And it’s like, wait a second.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

So yeah. Carry on. But that that that I yeah, that’s funny.

Mark:

Yeah. And this one this one’s a little different too in this in the sense number three. is the ability to make restitu restitution. Okay.

Justin:

Different

Mark:

different from responsibility, but I’m willing to make restitu including finding a way to correct the situation. You follow me? And I think I think that’s where s people fall into issue. You know, it’s like

Justin:

What if I want all of these so

Mark:

far? Well, I think so often it will be, you know, how often have we heard, well, you’re not sorry because you s keep doing the same thing. You haven’t done anything different. You follow me? And it demonstrates that I’m not sorry, you know, if I’m not willing to make restitution. But it almost comes down to, you know, if something is broken or lost or stolen, you know, that person because of what you did you’re willing to make restitution or replace or pay for that inconvenience. Okay.

Justin:

But isn’t that different than Um I have to sneeze.

Mark:

Oh. Bless you.

Justin:

I think that’s a how I see it first. Sneeze on air.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

I’m not gonna cut that out.

Mark:

You can definitely find it in the audio though.

Justin:

It’s definitely gonna be a little spike.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Isn’t it different to say, I wanna see that you’ll make it right right now versus I wanna see you make it right permanently?

Mark:

Right?

Justin:

So I could I could see number two and number three being distinct and that number two sounds like I’m res I can I I’m I I’m more confused, you know.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, you are.

Justin:

I’m taking responsibility to the degree that I know that I made that mistake and I can again and like kind of accepting that f the future part of it where The restitution is well, I’ll make it right right now, pay you that five dollars or whatever, and then you feel your conscience is clear, but that doesn’t mean it sticks. What do you think? Okay.

Mark:

You follow me. What it what it looks like and how soon I need to do something or how soon something needs to happen. That become more evident in five. But being able to recognize that, you know, an apology is this nuanced thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. And and being able to understand our differences I d I think it just helps us speak it better. And that’s where I was excited to be able to kind of share this. And uh actually Lizzie, you know, brought our my attention to this. It was something they did in like with their um with their RAs, you know, to be able to, you know, you know, to ha as you develop leadership, you know, you want be you want to create that awareness that how different styles come into play. And I think um when we think about restitution, we can think about those things and doing it quickly, but being able to recognize betrayal can be a part of that too, in such a way that makes it up to them. You follow me? In other words, that person saying, okay, I realize I did this. How can I make it up to you? That’s a that’s that’s restitution speaking versus responsibility. Does that make sense? Yeah. So being able to recognize, okay, yeah, this took and so you may uh making restitution may be your language, if you want something someone to prove They’re willing to correct the problem.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Kind of that putting your money where your mouth is type thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. And uh you might be, if you find it important for the person that offended you to make things right again. Okay, this is what I need to see from you going forward, that kind of thing. And you want and you you want someone to take the lead. I thought that was good in this process too. Being able to, you know, restitution, being able to see I did this wrong. How can I make it up to you? In other words, that person’s basically willing to acknowledge it and they’re being forthright about coming to you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

So that’s three.

Justin:

It’s interesting as we’re talking, we kinda are flip-flopping back and forth between the forgiver or the apologizer and the apologize.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

When we talk about it. Because it’s you know, you kinda have to he describe it from both directions to really get a good grasp of it grasp of it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, but ’cause you said someone who Apology lift dial is to about making restitution expects you as the apologizer to take the lead. Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And as the if that’s your love style, that’s typically what you’ll do, I think, right? Is like take the lead. Like, I’m gonna make this right to you and let me get rid of Bill Fold.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Bill Fold.

Mark:

Wow. Wow. Where’d that come from?

Justin:

I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever said billfold in my life till now. But it just sounded like old timey Western I’m gonna, you know, pay for your fence. Let me get my billfold.

Mark:

Put your money where your mouth is.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yes. Oh, that’s fair enough. So here we go. Number four.

Justin:

Number four. Got four fingers up.

Mark:

Number four is genuinely repenting. Okay.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Repenting requires a change in behavior. Sorry is not enough. Okay? Engage in the problem solving and don’t make excuses.

Justin:

That sounds like a combination of all of that. Sorry. But

Mark:

but being able to make a better or specific plan for change and a sincere desire to do so.

Justin:

Yeah. Okay.

Mark:

So that’s that’s that’s showing a genuine repentance in that process that I I am willing to What I’m saying is I recognize I did this to that degree, and I’m implementing this to let you know that it is my desire for it not to happen.

Justin:

Wow.

Mark:

Blash

Justin:

makes two.

Mark:

Justin’s allergic to apology.

Justin:

That’s what it is.

Mark:

No, but

Justin:

there’s so much to that more. So much. Carry on.

Mark:

A s a sincerzy desire to do better.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. And you you may be uh that that may be your style if you need proof someone is growing and working towards change. Okay, I need to see, you know, what you’re doing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s not enough that you’re telling me you’re sorry. I want to see that you’re uh there’s a desire to implement change. And you need assurance, you you want to you won’t be let down again or next time around. Okay? And that person’s ability to develop that plan is part of that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Not that you won’t be let down, but you want, you don’t, you want, you’re trying to avoid being let down. And I think that’s a that’s a difficult thing for some people in this process of being able to recognize growth. Because I think so often it comes back to, you know. People want to say, okay, yeah, you’re acknowledging it, but it won’t happen again.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me, and you know, and we’ll we’ll deal with this, you know, with with addictions even at times, that ability to be able to say, hey

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

How how how are you developing a plan? Yeah. How is it going to be different going forward? And uh because uh this this is another good clarification, words aren’t enough.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I wanna see action. I wanna see a change because words aren’t enough.

Justin:

Yeah. Let me Break that down. So expressing regret, words can be enough. Accepting responsibility, words can be enough. Ability to make restitution, maybe not.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Valid point.

Justin:

Well I’m just I’m just but so I feel like you’re a progression there, yeah. Genuinely repenting is definitely words, aren’t it?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Can you make restitution without with just words? Probably not, right?

Mark:

Well I think I mean i in an aspect of betrayal, I probably could because there might not necessarily be a a specific action or, you know, a a monetary exchange being able to recognize, you know, that the restitution, it’s a it’s about my ability to make up for it. How can I make up for it, you know, in that process when I think about restitution.

Justin:

That’s true.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Are we getting the fifth finger?

Mark:

We are we got all we got all our digits up. Our whole hand is up. And then uh the fifth one, and it seems kind of overarching like you’re saying, requesting forgiveness. Okay.

Justin:

And

Mark:

it involves an allowing the other person to process her before assuming everything is back to normal. And I think that’s where I was coming to the fifth one. The fifth one really is about timing. Because I think so often, uh, you know, being able to say, I’m I’m so sorry for letting you down. Can you find in your heart to forgive me? You follow me? I’m willing to put the words into play, but I’m also willing to recognize you may need time to be able to do so.

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

Because what I did

Justin:

That’s the healthy version of this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The unhealthy version is I need you to forgive me right now.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Maybe that person can’t get there, but you that’s your style, so you you you’re not gonna leave till they forgive you.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, interesting.

Mark:

And that’s so are you I think

Justin:

’cause it’s probably like a lot of things where there’s Like a continuum of good bad versions of these.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The worst version looks like this. The the best version looks like this. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah. And I I’m the I’m just uh I’m just thinking in hindsight. I I should have uh we should have taken this beforehand and it might have made a little more sense for to be able to talk yeah, the quiz ahead of time. Because I am uh I’m uh I did I did do it a while ago. Yeah that’s how long it’s been and I’m not even sure what my language is still at this point. But I think it’s what what made it so neat for me in this process. Oh, I wanna um I’m sorry. Oh, being able to say I’m sorry for letting you down, can you find your heart to give me? I think that puts power back into the relationship in such a way that the hurt individual is able to hear that. You follow me? I’m giving I made a mistake. I chose to do something that hurt you. Now I’m also giving you that power back to be able to forgive me.

Justin:

And I would say that’s on the healthy side of the continuum.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And that did that being said, so it it leaves room for that. You might be, this might be yours thing if if you’re a person that’s not quite ready to reconcile. You know, that person that that needs a little more time or you need more from the apology and you want the space to ask for it. In other words, you’re hearing that person right now, but you might need a little more clarification on a few issues.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You might need a little more information at times

Justin:

Yeah, or space.

Mark:

Or space, yes. In other words, it’s it’s more about processing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I might need some time and you need and you need to know the person the person apologizing, like you say said earlier, is willing to wait. You follow me? Like you were saying, well I need you to forgive me right now.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah,

Justin:

interesting.

Mark:

Those are the five styles.

Justin:

So I had a thought.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Just like in each of these styles, I was saying there’s kind of a continuum, maybe, um, of good good and bad versions. Um I also feel like ‘Cause so

Mark:

Tell me what you’re thinking, Joe.

Justin:

Celebrate recovery. We often talk about what our struggle is, and one of the things I talk about often is resentment. That’s just kind of an ongoing struggle of mine. And I feel like that being a weakness in me or a struggle that I, you know, that I kind of continue to experience in my life. I think all of these are applied to me.

Mark:

Well and I think that’s what

Justin:

I was gonna say is my wife is easy to forgive, easy to apologize, and I feel like she struggles with very few of these. In terms of expectation. So the receiving end, the apologize end. And so when I think of from a apologize end , Right. I think I want all of these things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To some degree.

Mark:

And I and I think th in some ways, I think the level of hurt we experience would probably branch out a little more.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m just gonna be more aware and I’m gonna need more based on the level of hurt that I experienced.

Justin:

So so if you’re looking at uh A fork. XY axis, right? One axis is amount of pain and or the amount of hurt in the thing. The other one might be uh time and repeat offenses.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Cause that affects it too, right? Like the more the more time there’s been and the more repeat offenses, the more this list grows probably. Like

Mark:

Likely.

Justin:

Right. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like I’ll need more time to forgive you if you’ve done it ten times than if you’ve done it once.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And I’ll actually want to see genuine repentance if it’s a pattern.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right. And Right, you can go through all these and see how they will grow, probably grow over time if the offense continues.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Fashion.

Mark:

And I think I think what made this neat for me is I can recognize or, you know, I can think of specific times Of course, I’ve made mistakes in on in my relationship with Chris, but I can I can respect the fact that so often what I Desire to communicate. I was trying to think about what it was. Oh, I had a uh this was a bad habit on my part. Um I wouldn’t necessarily take responsibility for what I did, okay, where Chris was concerned. I would say something to the effect of, I’m sorry I made you you feel that way. You follow me?

Justin:

Oh, I follow. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think so often that’s where, you know, it it kind of breaks down. And being able to honestly communicate that I regret what I did versus I’m sorry I got caught and you got upset at me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Those are those are different things.

Justin:

Yes, they are, yeah. I feel like we could we could branch out into what not to say is

Mark:

oh yeah oh yeah

Justin:

because I think there’s definitely some that’s one I think right would you agree and you probably never should say that I’m sorry that I made you feel that way. I mean I don’t I can’t think of a scenario where that’s probably the the r I don’t know. I’m prostituting. Yeah, it seems like that’s probably not the a good way to apologize. Pretty much ever

Mark:

That’s correct. Okay. I agree.

Justin:

I guess

Mark:

I learned this one the hard way.

Justin:

You know, is

Mark:

is it’s because it minimizes what I did.

Justin:

Yeah Yeah. Yep.

Mark:

It minimizes what I did.

Justin:

Well, it not only does it minimize what I did, it really puts the blame on you. The blame on the other person. If you weren’t a better person This wouldn’t have hurt you. So I’m sorry that you’re not a better person. Yeah.

Mark:

It puts the blame on the other person instead of taking responsibility for it. If you weren’t so sensitive, you wouldn’t be you wouldn’t be upset.

Justin:

And what’s interesting too about these love styles or these apology styles is sometimes the way we’re apologizing is genuine, but it’s read as i disgenuine. Right. That’s correct. So I You probably were truly sorry when you said it. Um but I’m

Mark:

I’m willing to recognize I could still be wrestling with that pride dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

in such a way that and and and granted that I think that’s where the frustration came into me for me because awareness wasn’t there. And it took me years sorry, I’m a slow learner. But it took me years to be able to recognize no, it’s not about You saying uh it’s not about me saying you were right.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s about my ability to admit that I was wrong.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me. And then and being able to say, Yeah, this is this is how this is how what I did affected you.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. And so some other examples of what not to say. I’m sorry, but

Mark:

right? Sure.

Justin:

And following it up I mean it’s excuses, any kind of excuses for your behavior.

Mark:

Um

Justin:

Yeah. I th I think I think there is room for apologies where you try to help the understanding of what brought you to the place where you hurt them.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

And saying this is not an excuse. Like making it clear that it’s not an excuse, but trying to trying to provide some some insight to I guess allow them to see how you see it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But that

Mark:

‘s sharing perspective.

Justin:

Yeah, thank you. That’s a barrier

Mark:

term. Sharing perspective. May very well come across though as creating a defense.

Justin:

Yes, yes. Yeah, that’s why I was talking so slow. I’m like, I don’t know how you say this without encouraging even doing that. Because I think, oh yeah, I should be able to explain my p point of view and it should help the whole thing out.

Mark:

Because I want

Justin:

to tread real lightly with that.

Mark:

Yeah. Because in some ways it is that dynamic of creating ex you know a defense or making excuses. And that’s where it gets lost because our our partner in that or in that relationship the other person’s only hearing a minimized yeah, you know, perspective on, well, you you’d done the same thing if you’d been in my shoes. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. And and I think that’s where we start losing that effective apology is when in my ability to be able to say, Yep. I did that. And I’m and I really am sorry that I did that. And I can see that I have done that in the past. And you know, depending on your style, it is my desire to put things in place. that basically you can see that I’m not I’m trying not to do that anymore.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And

Mark:

there’s no then there’s no I’m sorry but at that point.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s it’s full ownership.

Justin:

Yeah. What are some other don’ts? When you look at these.

Mark:

Um, I I’d say another one.

Justin:

Not my fault. I’m sorry, it’s not my fault, but it’s not my fault. Like when

Mark:

Or that that’s yeah. It’s not my fault I’m blaming other people.

Justin:

Yeah, I guess it’s kind of the same. But

Mark:

Um, and I think another one that comes out of that defensiveness is um thinking that I know how much I’ve hurt that other person. That’s a big pitfall that I’ll see. Like I and and so often that also comes back in the aspect of defensiveness. Because it’ll go to the point of You know, I know exactly how you feel. And and that’s how I felt when you

Justin:

Yeah, and you’re like, no, that’s not the same.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Exactly.

Mark:

To being able to recognize, no, that’s not beneficial apology. Not a beneficial apology when I’m willing to when I’m just basically trying to put it back on you in a way that says, you know, well, yeah, I know how you feel because you did that to me too. And it’s something completely unrelated, it’s just completely different. And it doesn’t matter.

Justin:

Even if it’s the same, that’s not an apology.

Mark:

Exactly. It’s not an apology

Justin:

Well I forgive you because you’ve done that to me before. Yeah. I don’t know.

Mark:

How passive aggressive does that sound? Yes.

Justin:

And um, you know, you you say m multiple things, he said comes back to defensiveness. I think honest yeah, defensiv defensiveness if you go back further, it’s just pride. So I think no matter what Apology will not happen properly if there’s still pride and so really it’s about killing that before attempting an apology and there’s a good chance it’ll come out, right? And the but then you also have the other side of the apology size, which is the receiving end. So you might you may apologize genuinely, but they might not receive it because you didn’t do it the way they they expected or whatever. But but step one is Kill the pride. If you don’t, it’s you one of these are gonna you know is gonna come slip out, right?

Mark:

Yeah. Um No, no doubt in that in that the pride has to be slain first.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then I’m able to be able to be aware of the subtle nuances and differences between us and not just saying what you need to hear in such a way that you know is form formatic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know But to the point of I’m genuinely I genuinely care about what I did wrong and I’m and I’m willing to even investigate you know, to what degree you like to hear or that’s beneficial to hear

Justin:

how

Mark:

how I’m taking responsibility or how I’m regretful or, you know, those kind of things that You just hear it a little bit differently. And I think I has when I look at this, I think of so often couples in conflict. You know, and I think, you know, it’s like, yeah. That didn’t sound I’m sitting in the chair across the room. It’s like, are you kidding? That you you thought that sounded like something that she or he would receive.

Justin:

That’s supposed to make her feel better.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so sometimes I sit there, it’s like, well is that different than my style? And it’s like, no, no, that’s just that’s surprising.

Justin:

That’s just bad. Yeah.

Mark:

Oh, don’t go there. Don’t go there. Don’t tell her you know. You know, or don’t tell him you know exactly. It’s like, no, no, no, no. But yeah, but I am I’m aware from my perspective with Chris, you know, and to how often those times have been where it’s like, I just didn’t hear it the way she I don’t hear things the way she does.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and and uh you know, as you mature, you know, your apologies get better in terms of k slaying the pride first and then as you continue to mature and grow, grow, grow, grow, you start to recognize the ability to try and show how you are sorry in the language that they can hear best. Right.

Mark:

So that’s the thing that’s Yeah that would be the hope.

Justin:

Yeah, that that’s like, you know, kind of when you’re reaching the peak of goodness being good at apologizing, I guess, is when you genuinely mean it and you want it to be heard the most effective way possible.

Mark:

Yes. Right? Very much so. I Yes, I value the relationship, not necessarily the microphone. Justin tried to grab a a fruit fly and missed.

Justin:

I missed This is an adventurous adventure.

Mark:

And I’m not sure it’s gotten better since All these distractions, if you will.

Justin:

It’s all good though.

Mark:

But so yeah, that’s that’s where I’m at with apology style. So feel free, we’ll we’ll put a we’ll put a link in to be able to go there.

Justin:

We really need I need an illustrator because I uh or you know, we always have these hand motions or diagrams in our heads. Like we need a full-time illustrator. So if that’s you, you want to be part of the how I see it team And you will do it for zero pay. Then hit us up.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

Cool, cool. I was thinking about that uh that grid I was saying, the XY thing. Right? Like that.

Mark:

I’m still thinking on that.

Justin:

Yeah, so I wanna I want to go back to it because I think I I fudged it up a little bit. But left right, that’s X, right.

Mark:

Yes, y is y is hor l x is horizontal. Y is vertical. So

Justin:

on the x-axis you have um repetitions of offense.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Over time.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

On the y-axis you have um uh intensity of offense.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Okay?

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

So I guess it’s like the, you know Whatever.

Mark:

It’s more of a like a right angle.

Justin:

Yeah, right angle, thank you. Right angle chart, right? Where you have excess. We don’t have to.

Mark:

This is where the illustrator would come in.

Justin:

Exactly. But yeah, so like the more pain and the more times the offense is there, the more of these one, two, three, four, fives you’ll expect, I think.

Mark:

Yeah, it makes sense.

Justin:

Yeah. Because

Mark:

Yeah, because I think The greater the depth and the more frequent, we’re gonna become numb to some of the words. We’re gonna wanna see a little more action. A little more intentionality. Precisely. And and being able to recognize, yeah, it’s I’m gonna I’m gonna be looking at things a little differently. because I’ve heard this before.

Justin:

Because all this conversation ain’t satisfaction in me.

Mark:

Yes, that’s correct. But that means I’m hearing where you’re coming from on that on that yes, right angle quadrant. Yeah. We could do that.

Justin:

I’m not gonna promise it. I gotta

Mark:

exactly I got a blank page. I got a blank I can flip this over and I’ll have a blank page all ready to go

Justin:

What we should do is a like a timed ver you know, you and I will go and we’ll draw it on our tablets and then we’ll post both of them

Mark:

It’s a draw-off, folks.

Justin:

A draw-off.

Mark:

Well, that being said, I appreciate your time, Justin.

Justin:

You too, Mark. Thank you for bringing your tablet and your notes and your preparation and Your knowledge and your wisdom and your forgiveness and your apologies.

Mark:

Well I know that uh it’s a it’s uh it’s a pleasure on my part just to be able to help people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I respect the fact that uh excuse me, I’ve been in that kind of proverbial boat before where it just didn’t seem like I could say it correctly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think this helped me understand that a little better.

Justin:

You need a clear throat, man. I do.

Mark:

So this is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one