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[Music]

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good morning Justin good morning Mark do you remember what we're talking

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about yes no I I meant the audience oh with the audience I thought you were

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talking about five minutes ago I do remember the audience remember what we're going to talk about that's the real question oh they probably do in the

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in a in the segue the the way we left the segue last time with the Cliffhanger d

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yeah yes now it's it's it was uh it was more of a wrestling I think for us to catch back up yeah cuz you know two

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weeks have definitely gone by and it's like yeah being able to come back I I in

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all honesty I would have forgotten MH because you know each each week we kind of bring our own little that's right

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what about this topic what about that topic to the discussion and it's like yeah I was already I I my mind was

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already down another Trail yeah yeah but it's a it's it's good to come back thanks for the reminder yeah it's my

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pleasure I want to be able to do what we say we're going to do when we say we're going to do it that's right although stop listening

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well just kidding uh no last time so we had a little inter intermission where we

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had a guest last week so sure uh probably I haven't decided yet this is a

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little uh what do you call that foreshadowing baseball inside baseball

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okay right where I haven't decided if I'm going to release Jeff's guest one

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before this one I kind of feel like I should just put this one next so I hear where you're coming from yes so you now

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you know it's a struggle to figure that out so it is a [Music]

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struggle welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

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a podcast T that works to countercultural polarization through

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thoughtful [Music] conversations anyway last time we talked

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about codependency sure and we kind of reference the fact that it's a big

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subject especially if it starts Beering into some of the tangential subjects

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sure we talked quite a bit about the concept of enabling uh I think we covered you know

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generally what codependency is as kind of an overarching uh relational theme sure and

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then we kind of broke down the two parts of a codependent relationship kind of typically there's two pieces to the

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puzzle there two two sides of the equation the codependent and then what we call the addict but it can be just

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the other side right sure that uh receives the the codependent behavior and and assumes it

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um and then we said well well how do you how do we work through that right and

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how do we deal with that and we started to talk about boundaries and then we started about boundaries said wait wait

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Mark that'll be good for next week and you started to say something good and I

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interrupted you I'm you know every time you talk Mark I'm like this is good good

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good stuff yes I haven't had my quiet time kombucha yet yeah that's right I saw

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that that was that was that was good nice little segue there little intro I should say I I was hoping you going to

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bring me some but oh you know what I I I drank it all I drank my quoted during

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quiet time you know right good choice so what do you think Mark yeah boundaries

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what do you think about the boundaries oh there's a lot that I tend to think about boundaries I I can honestly admit

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that uh even though I wanted to do a different uh topic for the morning

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you're still sour about that no I'm not I'm realizing how how

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boundaries came into that topic how I how I actually I can admit I blew a

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boundary this week you know and I think that's that's the reality of it is

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sometimes um we don't realize I think I

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think boundaries can be are great I I think we

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need them to have healthy lives you know as far as where

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where is the line but sometimes in the line you know we can we can try to get

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so close and we might not even necessarily realize when we cross

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over until someone else may bring that to our attention or there's a point

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where circumstances come into play I wasn't necessarily you know I can be

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tired I can be hungry you know those kind of things that kind of factor into the situation and I think that's what

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makes it difficult and that that's where the the part where I mentioned last time

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Lizzie and I were talking about uh our formulas formulas yes our desire for

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formulas because if I do this and I do this and I do this then boom this is what happens and I don't think life is

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typically that way it's not formulaic yeah love the Lord your God you know

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love others you know those kind of things that's what God talks with keep him first okay well what does it mean to

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keep him first does that mean I have to have the first hour of my day spent with

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him well maybe for some people but not for others you follow me what does it mean to love other people and Lizzie and

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I were having the discussion because um she had to write a paper that was based on what they what they were referring to

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as two books and you know it was the it was

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defining the the books of science because science wants to prove something

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and it's got to be you know attainable it's got to be measurable all that and the and and scripture so how do you how

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does a scientist okay hold on to their spirituality if you will and yet still

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value science because it can seem in our culture that those two things are polar

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opposite you can't necessarily you know hold on to your Christian values and be

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a scientist and I think you know that's where the discussion came into play and I think you know that's where so often

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our our boundaries need to be drawn is between being able to blend two things

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that seem as if they're on opposite ends of the spectrum we all know people who are typically uh who typically think in

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black and white mhm it's either or you know and so often we recognize there's a

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lot of gray yeah in life and we have to be able to say okay how can I blend

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those two because I can't typically make it one or the other and so often what I

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end up finding myself doing is flip-flopping if if I'm really stuck in

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that black and white I just kind of find myself flip-flopping from one end of the spectrum to the other and I think that's

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where boundaries comeing to play for me and I I'll admit you know where the the

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part I was coming to is um I think you know each person kind of has to develop

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that within the relationships around them and you know sometimes I I think

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that's what makes relationship so valuable because we can

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help others and others help us kind of Define what boundaries look like and yet

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at the same time that's where I also recognize that my boundaries tend to

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impact you know my family my wife if am I limit and this is where it came from

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am I doing a sufficient job of limiting my work from coming into my family time

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or you know our Christen and my couple time you know to be able to say okay

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there's a point where you know I can work very hard for a season maybe but

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yet when does That season end mhm where is the boundary to where this is

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circumstantial we'll do it this long and but then we're going to cut that date

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we're going to start cutting the time back as far as how much I'm working even if it's a seasonal thing because if if

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we don't have boundaries we just continue to press that envelope and you

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know and you know 10hour days turn into 12h hour days and you know we kind of

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flow with the river if the river's slowing Upstream you know where like you said okay this just extends to I'm

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working more and more and more and more or it can go the other way too where it's like I'm caring less and less and

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less about my job and you know risking losing a job or whatever like you can go you know but tip if we don't yeah make

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course Corrections yeah yeah it's interesting and I think I think from my

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perspective too I think our priorities are reflected in our

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boundaries I can't say that something is important to me you know and and

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therefore not allow any time for that in my day MH to where if there's if if my

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family is important I'm going to establish boundaries around that my relationship with Chris you know my

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relationship with God you know kind of working it's like I'm taking that in

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into context of being able to say okay how much time am I spending in both

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because I believe you know our lives are finite we can't you know we I'll I'll catch myself every now and then say I

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can make the time to do that no nobody can make time you know and yet our

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tendency is to say what we're doing is I'll I'll I'll put that priority over

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something else I would like AI to figure this out how to allow ow us to make more time

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there you go yes yeah you could be a wealthy man yeah I know all right yeah

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I'm on it okay um yeah I mean that's a great point that time is our single

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resource in life that you cannot add more or take away like it is what it is and there's no cheating it yeah and so

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that's a good uh point for a boundary marker right is time time spent um would

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you say in your experience personally and certainly in counseling that

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boundaries how important are they to a an unhealthy

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relationship and B a healthy relationship I guess I could summarize

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it by saying all relationships but I guess I kind of want to understand both sides of that continum and I have a

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hunch but yeah I would love yeah i' I'd say it's very important to both yeah equally right yeah if I have a difficult

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relationship it's probably due to my lack of boundaries and if I have a good

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relationship it's probably in part due to my definition of boundaries that's

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good that's that's kind of was my hunch I'm like I think maybe sometimes we think of boundaries as something

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unhealthy people have to do sure and I think it I think boundaries create healthy relationship because we're able

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to Define them in such a way that says this is too far mhm because when I'm by

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myself you know I may I may need just that that reminder and yeah and I I

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think first and foremost God gets to Define that you know and then you know Chris and I work together at saying okay

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you know how much is too much to spend without talking about it you follow me

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cuz like you say I mean that that used to be a uh a hot button for Chris and I yeah just B on how we grew up so

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differently was finances so being able to understand okay I can

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spend basically Rod up to 50 bucks or you know give or take around 50 bucks you know that no problem but you know if

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we start talking 500 you know I'm not going to do that without necessarily

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talking with Chris because that's a that's a financial boundary but yet I don't have to tell her you know if I'm

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buying a pack of gum yeah you know because that's too far in the other direction she trusts me at that part but

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it's just she takes care of the finances primarily and if I'm spending big

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allotments without her knowing of it on a routine basis it makes her job very

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difficult yeah so this this gets into your formulas thing okay so in your relationship there's there's a boundary

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and it lies right around the $50 mark and it ties directly into your specific

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relationship yep um I could flip the script and say how much what's the dollar amount she can spend without

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consulting you and the number is probably a lot higher based on just knowing Mark actually I would I of gum I

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need to know no it's 50 for her as well oh okay

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you follow me to wear is that like just an agreed thing that you came to it yeah yeah that's that's a boundary for both

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of us to where she and like you say it's not sorry I didn't mean to leave the question but it's okay because I think

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it's a I think it's a valid point because that boundary is the same for both of us your relationship yeah now

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does that mean that I don't trust her to

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she is she's in charge of finances right now if she needs to spend $2,000 MH I'm

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really fine with that yeah cuz you trust that she knows CU she knows what's going on and yet

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I would I would be surprised if she were to do that without saying anything to me it would come as a

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surprise this this you know at this point in our relationship if she were to do that because I know you know as she

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spends it's like she wants me to know yeah so that I can plan accordingly too

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but yeah it's not and that's where I think so often boundaries can be

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confusing is because it it seems as if well you don't trust me oh yeah you

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follow me yeah but yet at the same time what it comes down to is there is a

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healthy understanding if you will that says okay if this is going to happen

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we're going to have a discussion about it and I think that's the difference you know between healthy because if a in a

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unhealthy relationship well you don't trust me I should be able to do whatever I want to do yeah well all we're really

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doing is creating reactivity around trust right cuz don't tell me what not

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what I can't do that kind of thing y but you know and that's where that's where you know relationships get difficult

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yeah and again it's the formula thing doesn't work if you try to apply it to

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boundaries like oh Mark's and Chris is $50 so yeah I really like that I'm going to tell my spouses what we have to do

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and like you know it might be a good I'm not you know that's a perfect great guideline and I think if any here's the

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thing if any couple agreed this is that boundary this is where we want to do it then it'll work just great it's more about kind of figuring out the the

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formula for your your marriage and the reason I the the leading question I asked you is because I think the amount

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I spend versus the amount Megan would spend like her caring what I spend she cares more than what I care about her

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spending because like you said she does the finances and I just kind of trust that and I don't even check the bank so

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I I wouldn't really necessarily know you know um and you know that so far works

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for us work great you know we don't have an agreed amount or whatever but I definitely know when I went over

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it how did you find that out Justin no actually it's yeah I'm we're like you

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and Chris in the sense that we communicate most of the time when there's any kind of significant expense so it's not you know U but definitely

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learned it by yeah probably making some assumptions early on marriage but honestly I can't remember a specific but

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I just know yeah you can't you come to that through learning but um well I I have a specific I'll be honest with you

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it $51 something no it was $125 something that's how three times the 50

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yes and that's where the the 50 came from or started to come from because I

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this is what made it a Hot Topic this is this is going back to unhealthy Mark and

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Chris on finances I would a lot when early on I would a

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lot you know I would bring home you know all that I made but you know if somebody

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gave me some cash or something you know that was kind of mine as I saw at back

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then okay and so that was available that was kind of a slush fund if you will you

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know yeah so I had my little keep it in the Cayman Islands no I could keep it in my pocket

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for the most part it wasn't that much but at the same time you know I I wanted

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a um I wanted a shotgun reloader a shotgun shell reloader and I got to that

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point 125 bucks I you know purchased it paid for it you know and it's like you

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know Chris eventually found it in a closet you know it's like what's this and how much and you know and I really

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had to you know it wasn't that she was out of line for asking all those questions but I also recognized how

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that broke a trust to a certain degree not that we had that boundary in play

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but it's like how can you can have your funds and you know that kind of thing so

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yeah so that was an unhealthy aspect for us so now establishing a boundary that

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says okay I'm not spending this and it doesn't matter what it's necessarily on

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it can you know for job for the house you know it's just communicating that so

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so that that's a great segue into um kind of how do how do you how do you get

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to where you establish a boundary and it this is the sticky point this is where a

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lot of people run into trouble is they don't realize that often boundary because again there's not a formula to

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say hey when X happen you know XYZ level is reached uh you know go into

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negotiation mode build a boundary and continue forward right like there's no formula for that so how do we usually

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find out a boundary is needed we usually find out about it through conflict and crossing over whatever that

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boundary unspoken boundaries right so that's what happened with the shotgun Reloaders like yeah there wasn't a

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spoken boundary but there certainly was you know an an implicit or implied or

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expect expect expectation expectation is a good word because I think uh I don't think it's a boundary until those

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expectations are communicated so sure so this gets to my point which is how do you get to a boundary well you usually

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cross over there's a conflict like you said and there needs to be a conversation yeah and that conversation

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is about assessing need about ass you know communicating communicating needs

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communicating expectations and figuring out how how to move forward now the

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reason I say it's a sticking point is because a lot of times especially in immature

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relationships that conversation is can be uh seen as like a a relationship

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ending conversation like you don't you don't trust me sure you you want me to

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be somebody I'm not yeah right M like that's a pretty common thing like you want me to be someone who just reports

20:45
to you every time I spend money on a pack of gum and I'm never going to be that person you you want me to be

20:51
someone I'm not right it can it can quickly go that direction um especially

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if there's not already patterns of Health relational Health in in a couple

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right or you know two people in Rel relationship and so it can quickly divulge into in into that kind of thing

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but the way I see it is a real relationship is born out of those conversations and when you start to

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realize where the boundaries need to be and you start to establish them and then you're able to move forward with with proper boundaries in place and also

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learn how to build boundaries in a relationship sure like that is key to a

21:28
healthy relationship is not just building a relationship but learning

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that that uh process is necessary probably throughout the life of the

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relationship as more expectations are surfaced or sure you know implied expect

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you know those things kind of surface and to be able to have a conversation say like uh I think this is something

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you you've mentioned before help me understand you know or you can come to

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those convers help me understand how the reloader showed up in this closet you

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know sure that kind of thing um and again I think the more you're able to work through those things the better it

22:08
the easier it becomes to build boundaries in those places and be able to say hey this worked last time let's

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talk about it for this thing you know yeah what are your thoughts oh no I I was I was actually uh coming back to

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that and I think you bring up a great Point um from

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my perspective it may made sense to be able to do that but yet I'm going to admit

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now okay I should have been able to talk with Chris about that because I I would

22:41
admit that there was a part of me that says I can do this on the sly yeah and I

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think that's where we're that's when when I start to think and I think this is maybe part of the formula as we're

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talking through when I start to think that it won't matter or they don't need

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to know M I'm probably crossing over a boundary yeah that's good because

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realistically if there's something that I can honestly say I didn't think about it it wasn't a

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big I I didn't realize it was crossing a boundary where you're concerned right

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but so often what happens is I just want to do what I want to do and I don't want

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to have to deal with you disagreeing with me right and or like have to make a

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case yes to you know have to have a discussion which sounds like the the

23:40
thing in you that said I'm just going to kind of use this money I got over here on the side I'm going to do this not

23:46
necessarily consult her cuz I kind of want to avoid that conflict Yes means that there was also some boundaries that

23:53
need to be established from your side it wasn't just Chris needing to build a boundary with hey you knowly there needs to be a limit to them but also there

23:59
need to be a boundary on your side and be like hey I shouldn't be trying like I mean this what you're saying I shouldn't

24:05
be deceptive right I shouldn't be trying to avoid a conversation with Chris about spending I should I should want that

24:13
conversation yep and if I don't there's something going on in the relationship that needs some boundaries that needs

24:18
some improvement both but instead it went the other way yeah you know I did my own thing yeah and the boundary had

24:25
to be created regardless but you know um and I think to your point too uh when

24:32
you were you know talking about uh being able to do that within a relationship and granted I would say you know you and

24:39
I you know need boundaries just like every you know you know romantic relationship friend relationship

24:46
business relationship you know all need boundaries in other words that's why we Define a work day yeah you know in most

24:53
places you know yeah cuz boundaries can sound confining or scary or whatever but sure you operate by boundaries through

25:00
we operate by boundaries all the time every does yeah you know we if I just if I just mention certain if you choose not

25:07
to operate boundaries eventually you'll operate by the boundaries of jail cell sure bars you know I mean you know

25:14
January 1 it's typically a New Year's a new year boundary you know for you mark

25:20
That's your truth yes that but you know what I'm

25:26
saying there's different you know we oper operate with them in our lives UN in an unspoken Manner and we have no

25:32
issue with it most of the time that you know a year is defined in a such a way but coming back to what I wanted to say

25:38
you know when uh help me the the part where

25:44
you said help me understand I think what happens is

25:50
boundaries make perfect sense based on my personal Dynam damic

25:59
okay the way I grew up you know my boundaries make sense to me right it's

26:04
like obviously you'd ask me about spending $150 that's what everybody does you're

26:10
weird right or vice versa well there again it's yeah it could be in the other

26:16
direction it's like no it's like I didn't necessarily grow up the same way and that's where obviously you

26:22
understand if I have 150 bucks in my pocket I get to spend it I mean that's just what normal people do right but the

26:28
interesting part is it's really about intimacy when I'm able to understand

26:36
where your boundary comes from and my yes and my need to respect that in such

26:43
a way that can establish trust because if I'm just saying your boundary doesn't

26:50
matter okay and and granted I understand you know uh Chris's I think we mentioned

26:56
it even in wives but you you know Chris's father grew up in Industry he had lost his job a couple times you know

27:02
they had had to they had had to move so there were times where I realized she didn't necessarily know where the next

27:09
paycheck may be coming from you know not in a you know her dad was a good provider but you know in that industry

27:15
in manufacturing industry you know that was that was part of that era and time and I can remember family members you

27:22
know around us that kind of fell into that even though we grew up in this different areas and yet my father father

27:29
did the same job you know from the time I was born until you know he he retired

27:35
from that job I think he had like 50 or 60 years in type you know 50 years type

27:40
I remember you know to where that my my perspective money in the bank was was

27:46
different completely different yeah and I realized how what I did was basically

27:53
a trust violation and I think so often it's in the ability to understand how

28:00
important these boundaries are to the other individual you know based on where

28:06
they've come from and I think you know I'll run into that so often with you know people people people who have never

28:14
experienced abuse have a hard time recognizing where this is where this you

28:21
know this narrow bound where these narrow boundaries or confining boundaries are coming from with in

28:28
relationship when they're entering into relationship with somebody who may have experienced hurt or abuse you follow me

28:36
because that person is definitely going to have some narrower boundaries or you

28:41
know ending towards one end of the spectrum or the other yeah or sometimes

28:47
less boundaries than normal because they've been trounced on sure right into it's like why don't you have that normal

28:54
boundary that most people do it's like well it was beat out you know or whatever yeah can kind of go both ways

28:59
even in that again formulas right like there isn't a perfect formula it really

29:04
comes down to the formula is this if you're in a relationship with somebody

29:09
there will need to be boundaries established eventually sure there is however what we call the honeymoon

29:16
period of a relationship right where everything about that person is great and why isn't everyone like this person

29:23
this person's great this relationship's great we're best friends there's nothing wrong here we won't ever even need to

29:29
set any boundaries because we're so in line and alike and you know right like

29:34
yeah well and the fact that he's he's spontaneous and I'm so you know routine

29:41
and I just love that spontaneity you know because we just do exciting stuff all the time you know we're talking a

29:48
lot about couples right now but I have also uh my my daughter's been you know

29:54
sharing with me some struggles with relationships in high school and all that and just like so I have a lot of

29:59
that in mind too of like she'll get a new friend and like they are just they

30:04
have a blast like there just the best and this person is the best and that person thinks me is the best yeah you

30:11
know and it's like kind of that same what I call the honeymoon period where you're kind of blind to the defects or

30:17
like you said you see them with rose-colored glasses it's like they are so different than me and it's the best

30:23
thing in the world um but yeah so the one constant one formula is that if you want a

30:29
long-term relationship it will require boundaries to be established at some point sure you have to understand that

30:36
you have to be willing to do it and then also um no long-term relationship is

30:41
built without some difficult conversations building boundaries and so

30:47
recognizing that first one that happens is not the end of the relationship yes and again this is I'm thinking about my

30:52
daughter it's good kind of the High School drama it's like you know the honeymoon perod ends it's like well that

30:59
person doesn't consider me in this way and and it hurts my feelings and when I

31:04
tell him that they said you you want to change me you don't want me to be who I am kind of thing it's like yeah this

31:10
this can feel like like end of a relationship or like and that's the

31:17
thing with boundaries um is understanding depend you know depending

31:22
on how deep you are in a relationship that a a life without that relationship

31:27
may be more healthy if you cannot have a one boundary setting conversation if you

31:33
can't get through that first one or the second one third you know like yeah if you can't work through boundary setting

31:40
together then that's not a healthy relationship that you're able to remain in sure and I think that can be that has

31:49
so getting back to some of those the codependency that we talked about last week or you know two weeks ago but may

31:55
last week for you the listener exactly yet to be determined ToBD um yeah

32:02
getting back to codependency um that can be the really difficult thing because in codependency

32:07
um the person who is the codependent needs the addict that's kind of what we talked about last week or two weeks yeah

32:15
last week folks it's going to be last week from here on out because I won't remember anyway that's what we talked about is this idea that an addict has

32:21
you know very visible and obvious um problems in the relationship the addiction but a codependent looks like

32:28
the healthy one but re really we talk about they're as sick as the addict for different reasons and part of that is

32:35
they need an addict they need someone in their life that they can fix that they can you know and a lot of cependant are

32:41
in denial about that and they will be like no I don't that that's not true at all I'm perfectly fine I don't need that

32:47
people just gravitate to me because I'm really good at solving problems mhm yes exactly uh and so having that

32:57
conversation but the hard thing is if you're in a relationship like that there's kind of this codependent magnet

33:05
you know where like I need that person and so when you say you got to set some boundaries yeah but it'll push them

33:12
away right yeah yes exactly that's that's thing it will push them away or

33:19
create change that's the that's the reality right yes yep and again

33:25
depending on how good you are at setting boundaries or how uh the precedent you've set MH I would I would say often

33:33
in unhealthy relationships whether I think of you know teenage drama or you know an addict and a codependent just

33:39
kind of not having the functionality of a you know good functional relationship the first boundary this you

33:45
know like the first real boundary is going to push people away in an unhealthy relationship but like you said

33:51
that doesn't mean that's the end of the equation and therefore they're gone like you said it can produce that change IDE

33:58
will produce that change that that is the mo you know the motive for it well

34:03
there's two motives maybe more my my health I gotcha

34:08
and the improved relationship sure and often when we're pushing for a

34:15
codependent to have those conversations and set those boundaries it's in light of this is for your health sure a number

34:23
one y most important thing and without your health your relationship ship

34:28
doomed to be crappy one way or another sure so you have to establish Health

34:33
that's that's goal number one sure goal number two is that this will improve their relationship because that person

34:39
will then it will create a change right it'll be a a catalyst it'll it yes

34:44
cataly it will speed up the change right it will promote change promote change yes yes uh but there's no guarantee so

34:51
you have to enter that negotiation that contractual negotiation understanding that a result of this might not be the

34:58
ideal which is it creates change or initially it might look like no it went

35:04
so far the wrong direction sure and understanding like that's not the end of the equation yeah your thoughts no

35:11
that's what I was thinking you know I mean um I the the that quidd Pro CR PR

35:18
quid pro qu yeah comes to mind you know because you know that doesn't

35:24
necessarily work if you do this I'll do that you know that kind of thing you know that that breaks down D boundaries

35:31
in in boundaries that's a bad pattern that formula doesn't work exactly and that's and that's so but that's what we

35:37
often go to you know and uh you uh last time last week's uh yeah podcast you had

35:44
mentioned too um the the friend that had the son um you would mention a family

35:51
dynamic as well and I wanted that was step cuby actually right maybe I thought you were talking with a family and you

35:57
were trying to you were their their son was an addict and oh yeah that that

36:04
there again that's where that same Dynamic comes into play because so often

36:09
it's difficult to establish that boundary that says no we're not going to do that anymore for you you follow me

36:18
that's a boundary and we're starting to establish that and there again that isn't an effort to be mean

36:26
right air quote it's a it's in a toip you and help you

36:34
promote change and learn responsibility yeah and I think that's where you know

36:39
ultimately that's the goal is that we are learning because what you mentioned

36:44
earlier in relationship you know early on we don't need so many boundaries

36:52
necessarily because we're responsible for Less we kind of come together I'm

36:57
resp responsible for me and you're responsible for you and we're learning how to take care of one another But

37:03
ultimately as we come together there are there's more finances there's children

37:09
there's other relationships you know and that ability to be able to say okay with

37:17
responsibility comes you know that that desire for more boundaries MH and I

37:23
think you know that's a that's a that's something we don't necessarily recognize

37:28
coming into relationship because we realiz I I'm going to look at what it

37:33
what it is to mean sure we may have a conversation how many kids do you want Da Da Da Da Da but what does it mean to

37:39
be a father what does it mean to be a mother what does it mean to you know raise a family how how often are we

37:45
going to do this or that you follow me and all of those are kind of

37:51
opportunities to be able to say okay what do I think about this and what do you think tell me what you think' and

37:58
that helps us establish those boundaries and that Dynamic that says

38:03
okay this is healthy relationship the ability to talk about these things and

38:08
accept influence from one another yeah you got me uh you got my

38:14
brain worring again you're good at that Mark go for it share share your worrying

38:21
all right here's my worrying uh no so here's the thing I recognize that

38:28
I think in our Ideal World up in here I'm holding my hand up like this Ideal World that we kind of see in our brain

38:34
of what it looks like um that No Boundaries seems like the

38:41
ideal relationship like we don't have boundaries cuz we're that close we're that tight we're that healthy sure right

38:48
uh and the idea of boundaries sounds like well that sounds like you you guys have some you know problems that you're

38:55
just accounting for or or um compensating for right sure um the

39:01
problem is you know that Vision that you might see like if that's kind of your vision of the idea of relationship is

39:07
there's no boundaries where just that we we we just know each other so well we

39:12
never step on each other's toes all that kind of thing to me that's just as viable as communism right so communism

39:20
as an ideal is actually pretty great like everyone pitches in does their part it's equal opportunity equal sharing

39:28
um but in that bubble of unreality there is no resentment there is no uh there's

39:35
always ambition despite you know the the result being the same as the next guy

39:40
right so my ambition is the same whether whether I get the you know a bigger opportunity out of my ambition or not

39:47
I'm going to be just as ambitious like in that bubble there's a lot of things we just kind of assume are there right

39:53
sure like and so to me again it's it's not reality agreed and reality

40:01
requires adjustments for Humanity you know what I mean sure and so that's where you know capitalism

40:07
certainly has its downsides right um but you know the way that uh the United

40:13
States of America was established was saying you know what we understand reality

40:18
represents a lot of bad bad characteristics in people and so we want to build a government that kind of has

40:24
as many checks and balances as as we can imagine like let's just figure out all the ways we can add a check and a

40:30
balance and let's in inject it so let's have three branches let's have this one be able to neg negate this one's ability

40:37
here and this one's ability you know the ability to negate this and then you know what else let's make sure that they are

40:42
accountable to the people that are ruling and we'll do that by right and so they just figured out like the reality

40:49
is humanity is pretty messed up so we need to build a system that accounts for that as best as possible and you know

40:57
what we came up with is the worst government except for all the others sure I think that was a Benjamin

41:02
Franklin quote um you know and basically it's this this idea that we understand

41:07
reality and we're trying to build uh a government based on what reality looks like not some pie in the sky ideals like

41:14
like communism that says well if we all just pitch in everyone will you know all the rising side Rising tide uh raises

41:21
all boats and so they're like well let's force a tide let's Force everyone on

41:26
this tide let's you know make sure that this happens and what ends up happening is all both sink you know it's it

41:32
because of humanity um and and kind of the consequences there um so anyway back

41:37
to boundaries I think that same thing happens where we have this ideal vision

41:43
of what it would look like but it doesn't count account for reality which is first and foremost and most

41:49
importantly I'm human I'm messed up it's not about my partner Being Human and messed up it's about I'm going to I'm

41:55
going to step on toes yeah I'm going to and it I may not even recognize the ways

42:02
that I do step on toes until I get into a relationship where there's actually a real boundary having conversation and so

42:10
often you'll find that too like in especially in recovery or like

42:15
you know Rec I say recovery because a lot of times that's where a lot of dysfunctional relationships are and

42:20
they're born from other dysfunctional relationship so there's these patterns in their life where they may have never

42:26
had an an actual healthy convers uh healthy relationship where boundaries were set so the very first time someone

42:32
sets a boundary say hey look when you talk like that it hurts my feelings they're like no one's ever told me that you're lying you're wrong sure right I

42:41
think that can be the diff or as a a child right like I think about again me as age it's like you know someone

42:47
setting a boundary with her or vice versa it's like well no one's ever told me you know I'm too I'm too much right

42:54
so so because no one's ever told me you're the only one clearly you're the messed up one here

42:59
sure no I hear you and so I guess back to the boundar think number one I'm messed up and number two my par my

43:05
partner is as well and that's okay so I have to be gracious to that to to my partner and also understanding that I

43:12
that I mess up and be gracious when when they come to me with boundaries what are your thoughts no I I agree and that's

43:18
where I come back to that ability to accept influence with one from one another is is that is that part that

43:25
basically says okay yeah we can definitely work this through or we can't

43:32
based on you're not understanding where I'm coming from based on how important

43:37
this boundary is to me yeah yeah and to

43:42
be fair I don't think uh a lot of those conversations come from a healthy perspective of like I'm just trying to

43:49
set a proper boundary here you're not understanding that more more often you

43:54
don't even know that's what you're doing you're just mad that that person stepped on your toe and say that hurt stop stepping on my toe why do you step on my

44:01
toe that's rude of you don't you realize that you're stepping on my toe why would you do that sure people don't step on my

44:06
toes only you do you know it's like yeah we usually don't come at it from The Mark uh counseling version of like you

44:13
know I'm trying to set a boundary well and it and I was thinking about that you know so often that lack

44:21
of boundaries seems personal like you're saying it's something you don't like me

44:26
you want me to change and it's like no it's just a matter of a transition we're

44:34
we we want to do this in a way that's healthy yeah and so often like you're

44:39
saying it's it's that it's that resistance to growth I would say and

44:45
here again I'm not just trying to you know add my point by tying growth to

44:50
that but it is a it is a defining that helps me recognize that this beh

44:57
behavior isn't necessarily beneficial to the relationship yeah yeah and I think

45:05
you know when when we're able to like you shared you know or I shared you know

45:10
when I was able to say okay yep I'm respecting the fact that I need to

45:16
change because my desire at times when I

45:22
have funds you know early on was to do my own thing my own way

45:27
yeah which is counter to relationship Y and if I'm and and I

45:34
think so often you know finances is just one part of that yes right you know and I and I

45:41
see it you know with kids it's like just that raising kids to be able to say okay

45:47
what is how much how much TV time how much screen time is too much how much

45:53
you know how often do we see you know extended you know based on our circumstances

45:59
where we where we live where they live you know just kind of how do we discipline yeah because so often I like

46:06
what you shared you know unfortunately sometimes without those conversations

46:11
resentment is created sex is another one in you know marital relationships where

46:17
I'm not obviously not going to go into detail but yeah just the conversations about what the expectations are and and

46:24
on both sides right and communicating those and coming to a place of proper boundaries that says I respect and love

46:31
you and therefore don't want to cross your boundary and vice versa I respect and love you and therefore don't want to

46:36
cross your boundary you know yeah and but you know that sounds weird in the in in the idea of sex but it's these idea

46:43
of expectations and communicating them and being able to come to a you know an understanding you know sure and I think

46:49
that's what you know good boundaries establish is an understanding Mutual understanding that is agreed on you know

46:56
and and able to be respected that's the good a result of a good boundary yeah um

47:02
yeah and and that's where I'm saying I I think from my perspective it comes back and having those conversations build

47:10
intimacy yeah because at that point I understand should yes I can or and I

47:16
have the ability to understand how important this is to you yeah and I can

47:22
recognize okay finances may not be that important to me but I recognize it is to

47:28
you sex may be more important to me and you're willing to recognize that you know or however that works in that

47:35
Dynamic to be able to say okay yeah if this really isn't such a big deal to me

47:40
then why am I arguing about it so much you know and I think there is something to be said for you know even even uh

47:48
even having that discussion in such a way that says okay on a scale of 1 to 10

47:54
how important is this to you because this this top that we keep arguing about okay how important is it a scale 1 to 10

48:01
well if it's a 10 to you and it's a one to me it's like for crying out loud why am I even arguing about this anymore

48:07
that's really good yeah and it's and figuring out what are my heels I willing to die on and and those would be the

48:15
good places to put a boundary because without them you'll you're willing to die like it's like the the 10 ones right

48:21
the eight to 10 are probably worth putting boundaries and everything else is worth having some compromising being

48:26
able to EB and flow too because I think sometimes yeah and I think there is an

48:32
aspect of EB and flow and I think we have to be able

48:38
to um I'm going to come back I guess I'm going to come back to

48:43
trust um because ultimately I think part of a boundary is this ability to say

48:50
okay there might be times even in healthy relationship where I cross it

48:56
yeah yeah and it's going to be a dynamic that's

49:02
circumstantial okay and it and understand and we can both understand

49:08
that it's not necessarily malicious right and we're going to be able to look

49:13
at a pattern we're going to be able to look back and say okay is this something

49:18
that's been occurring all along or is this something that is circumstantial

49:25
that just happened in a moment and I'm willing to say yep that happened in a

49:30
moment because uh the the part that I started with it's like uh I my answer in the phone call I answered a phone call

49:37
at like 10:00 at night you know and I didn't limit my work boundaries and at

49:43
the same time it was one of those things I had just picked up my phone to to to

49:48
Google something in a conversation and that was the moment that that my phone rang so my thumb just kind ofely yeah

49:57
and and that's not justification it's just a circumstance that basically says that's kind of what

50:03
happened and I didn't stop my fault I didn't stop the think about this is a

50:09
boundary violation right you know that kind of thing to be able to say yeah I

50:15
can let it go to voicemail but yet in my hand it was like and you know it's like oh this person da da da you know but I I

50:23
recognize you know in hindsight and you know through conversation you know it's like I need to you know have that

50:30
boundary established and and most times I would it was just that circumstantial

50:37
and I think you know my example is a poor one in the in the context of uh

50:44
such a limited time but I think you know there are aspects

50:49
where health issues come into play okay can I do in other words if I'm

50:56
a typical re if I'm typically responsible and you know and timely and

51:03
motivated and helpful okay um and

51:08
suddenly something happens to me physically okay say you know um I have a

51:15
heart condition or whatever you know and I I have to have surgery so therefore I

51:20
go into surgery you know and I come out I'm going to I'm going to need some time

51:27
I'm not going to come out of surgery and be firing all Cy exactly firing on all

51:33
and I think that is just as tough on boundaries sometimes because we get so

51:41
used to you doing what you do to combine with what I do to combine and now you're

51:47
no longer doing what you did yeah and being able to recogn we need contract

51:53
negotiation yes but being able to recogniz okay this is circumstantial yeah and I think that

52:01
that's where even margin comes into play which is maybe a separate topic but that

52:06
we've talked about it you know that margin to be able to say okay are we operating so close to the edge of the

52:15
boundary that if something changes we automatically cross over yeah that's

52:22
good and I think you know that's where the the boundary because I think boundaries okay are healthy that phone just crossed

52:30
my boundary hopefully that was your your boundary Crossing not mine actually it

52:37
might have been this that's all right too I I think that's where boundaries come into play because we need to be

52:43
able to set them a little further in than we talked about at the end of last session than the edge of the cliff yeah

52:50
if our boundaries right at the edge of the cliff and suddenly you have to go or I have to go in for surgery trip you

52:58
trip our finances change okay then we're automatically over the cliff yeah so

53:05
boundaries are are designed to be able to allow some margin in our time and you

53:11
know to be able to still PRI make our priorities keep our priorities you know

53:19
even when circumstances change yeah and the difficult part is figuring out where

53:24
Grace ends and codependence starts so you or interdependence even yeah but you

53:31
get you get where I'm going with that in the sense that um let's say that person has surgery and whatever and there's

53:37
needs to be Grace there to say they can't you know deliver in the ways that

53:42
kind of our our uh relational contract was kind of sorted out like you do your

53:49
things I do my things and we contribute and we bring to the table the this kind of equal um provision in different ways

53:55
and now you can't because of surgery well what can be difficult is reversion

54:02
right so in that situation maybe you had worked to establish some boundaries about who provides and how and all that

54:08
kind of stuff and it was hard one and you got to a place of a pattern that was healthy for your family and then this

54:14
surgery happen and and some reversion occurs and both s it can happen in both sides where the you know as a person who

54:21
went through surgery maybe I revert back to you know watching more TV like I used

54:26
to but you know I have an excuse to because what else am I G to do I can't walk very good or whatever it is you know and the other side could revert to

54:33
that resentment of like I can't stand when he sits around and you know he's not being productive out here I am

54:39
cleaning the house or whatever and so there can be some reversion that happens there in in this circumstantial thing

54:46
it's so important to have Grace and to have understanding of both parts to say hey this looks like a previous pattern

54:54
and it isn't necessarily sure number one and number two there can be real reversion of like okay my leg's better

55:02
but I'm back into my pattern of watching too much TV and not helping out around the house or whatever whatever that

55:08
boundary breaking is uh which gets to number one boundaries are hard to set

55:13
number two they're hard to keep so once once you establish a boundary um it can reset the

55:20
relationship on a new norm and that's that's amazing that's that's that's great yeah that's growth exact yeah um

55:27
the problem is like you said circumstantial things can cause a reversion and therefore the boundaries

55:34
may need to be redrawn or re- reminded or you know re reset sure and that can

55:39
be harder the the initial setting no doubt cuz now you have the resentment

55:45
built up of like that we got here I thought we established this and like or

55:50
even gaslighting of like I'm you know my leg's injured and it's not my fault I can't whatever and it's like well well

55:56
is it still hurting or could you help around the house you know that kind of thing like there can be all kinds of

56:02
relationship relational dynamics that can cause that reversion uh and now those boundaries really druy need to be

56:08
set again or reset or redefined or modified or whatever it is or you know

56:14
you sense you're going that direction because of this circumstantial thing to be able to say pause you know y like

56:21
like a referee you know pull up the tea time out exactly saying hey

56:26
just so you know I'm noticing this thing in me I'm noticing some reversion things where I'm getting a little resentful and

56:32
I just want you to know I know you I don't expect you to help out but I I feel like I'm expecting that and I don't

56:38
want that so let's just have a conversation about hey once you're able to be healthy let's figure out how we

56:44
can get back to a normal situation but for right now I want to make sure you know that I'm I want you to be healthy I

56:51
want you you know your leg to heal whatever that situation is right right be able to have a conversation kind of a

56:56
pre- blowup is ideal um but what are your thoughts on kind of well I know

57:02
we're getting real close to time okay and um yeah feel free to share your thoughts

57:09
or if you'd like to pause and we can continue this again do that I think you bring up a great Point too you know and

57:15
I'll kind of not that I'm closing with this thought but just to be able to say um the systems that we operate in resist

57:23
change yeah it's called homeo stasis it's basically like milk think about milk you know milk desires to have the

57:32
cream float to the top and the milk and homogeneous milk keeps it all together in other

57:38
words there's no separation and reality is that our systems desire to operate in

57:47
that same likeness the way they've always done so change the system itself

57:53
will resist healthy change it's the point if I want to do something more

57:59
beneficial you know more healthy my my the people within my system will

58:06
actually even fight that healthy change just because it's different yeah and I

58:11
think that's important when we're talking about you know addiction and other things like that to be able to

58:16
recognize other people may undermine my desire for growth but it

58:22
doesn't mean just because it's more comfortable doesn't mean it's healthy yeah and I

58:29
think that's that's where conversations come into play because so often I think

58:35
it comes down to this is going to be a difficult conversation so let's just not

58:40
talk about it right and you know that's where that's where the air and you know

58:45
so to your comment about homeostasis where we kind of want to separate out to the cream to the top and milk at the

58:52
bottom or that whatever in our relationship we're going back to to what we used to do or whatever um I think

58:59
that that's even not taking into account the law of entropy so entropy is

59:05
everything moves from orderly to to disorderly from not chaos to chaos that's a universal law of of the

59:11
universe right yep and so even in that situation where we go back to our Norm

59:17
that's also going to become more chaotic because now there's those expectations so it's not just you go back to way it

59:23
was and it's like all right fine it's like no it gets worse I hear you know the entropy kicks in and it becomes more

59:28
chaotic because now not only are we reverting to the way it used to be but there's also the resentment that's

59:34
building up and and those kinds of things and so it's not I guess what I'm saying is it's not just like kind of

59:40
going back to a neutral place and it's well we could be growing but now we're just kind of static like it likely will

59:48
continue to to and less healthy direction yes yeah no I agree with you

59:55
so yeah any other uh any other thoughts you'd like to share um there's one thing that I think

1:00:04
I don't know if there's time for um but in the con in the in the context of

1:00:11
codependency and specifically in recovery from codependency okay cuz I know a lot of friends who have worked

1:00:17
through that even my own uh wife would would you know share about her journey in that um how

1:00:26
the initial learning of boundaries tends to be very prickly no doubt right and so

1:00:32
uh I think that's one thing um that's probably worth exploring is like how to

1:00:38
have grades for that but also how how to grow into boundaries and not be prickly

1:00:43
and if that if that's even an option sure but usually what we find is that they overshoot right so it's like I

1:00:49
don't have boundaries and now I'm going to boundaries just slam them down on your your hands this is and every time

1:00:56
you cross over it's like whack you know and it's like ha you see that that's a boundary yeah eat it you know understood

1:01:04
and and and I think you it brings up that uh I think it is it's you know Billy Graham basically referring to our

1:01:11
relationship with Jesus to the point of he loves us just the way we are but he

1:01:17
loves us too much to leave us there and I think that prickliness is that love

1:01:23
that says I love you but I love you too much to see this pattern and cycle

1:01:30
continue so therefore it may feel a little prickly but ultimately I I desire

1:01:37
us I desire our growth you get to be able to and I and I think so often even

1:01:42
like in in sessions I'll say hey you know what this is this is the deal when

1:01:48
you guys come to me as a couple I see the relationship as my client so if that

1:01:53
means I have to step on your toes I'm going to step on your toes for the sake of the you know because anything that I

1:02:01
hear or see I'm going to view that through the health of the relationship

1:02:06
so yes there's going to be things that you do that are counter to relationship there's going to be things that I do that are counter to relationship and we

1:02:13
need to be able to challenge those and it's going to feel prickly at times but I'm letting you know ahead of time that

1:02:18
when that prick comes it's just to be able to recognize okay I see how that's

1:02:24
not healthy where our relationship is concerned and it's with the intention of movement into a healthier place I think

1:02:31
too like back to what I was saying about there's two goals to learning boundaries one is Health my health sure and then

1:02:38
secondarily is your health and I think especially in recovery we talk about you know you can't have a healthy

1:02:44
relationship till you learn Health in your personal health and so I would

1:02:50
almost counter what you're saying to where it's not very often that they're saying this is for the benefit of the

1:02:56
relationship it's very often in that first step learning of like oh yeah I can't have a healthy any healthy

1:03:03
relationship till I start learning how to have boundaries and sure so it healthy me healthy yeah it often comes

1:03:09
from a I think that is the long-term goal in that is but it's doesn't come

1:03:14
across that way often it's kind of like you know building a wall around me that says look I got boundaries and you're

1:03:20
going to deal with them whether you like it or not because I'm learning how to be healthy for myself and again for me I

1:03:26
understand that as a very important prog progression for someone who's working through learning codependence I think

1:03:33
there like I said there's just two sides of that that I would want to encourage someone learning that like to

1:03:38
remember people can be hurt by those boundary slamming sure and that hurt

1:03:44
isn't always bad I hear you but also just a recognition of it is is important but I I guess what I have learned is

1:03:51
like I think that's a necessary process sure I feel like it's

1:03:57
it's true whenever I see Healthy Growth in someone working through codependence is that they often go through this

1:04:03
prickly stage and if I have access to the people around them and often like

1:04:10
again in an ad I have access to the addict because they're the you know often it's a guy and we'll have these

1:04:16
conversations I'll say let him go through this it sucks it's hard I went

1:04:21
through it too like in other relationships like this is this is not not fun and this can't be the new Norm

1:04:28
like I don't expect you to live with this the rest of your life but you certainly should right now let them

1:04:34
learn this you know they need to learn this you know and uh anyway well I think

1:04:39
what you're describing is a healthy consequence to avoidance because so often we may want

1:04:47
to avoid circumstances or not recognize certain things have happened MH or have

1:04:53
been ongoing and when we ignore those over time you know there's going to be

1:04:59
greater consequences and I think you know feeling we I I don't know it's it's

1:05:05
like I think you know our lives have

1:05:10
pain one way or the other yeah if we if we stay in a relationship it's going to

1:05:16
have pain if we leave a relationship it's going to have pain yeah if you work out you're going to have pain if you

1:05:21
don't work out you're going to have the pain and exactly so and I think so often our desire is to avoid pain and it's

1:05:31
healthy to be able to recognize I'm not going to avoid pain you're just deferring yes and so I think so often in

1:05:40
that Dynamic when I feel that prickliness yeah allowing it like you're

1:05:45
saying is a healthy thing because that's really just a consequence that now I'm

1:05:50
being allowed to feel and it says huh maybe maybe the the way that I was doing

1:05:57
it isn't as beneficial as I once thought it was yeah yeah that's

1:06:04
good so as far as I'm concerned that's how I see it thank you

1:06:09
[Music] Mark hey thank you for listening to our

1:06:16
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1:06:49
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