Justin:

Why not?

Mark:

Why not?

Justin:

Indeed.

Mark:

Indeed. What day is it, Justin?

Justin:

Tuesday.

Mark:

Is it a Tuesday?

Justin:

No, it’s a Wednesday.

Mark:

It is a Wednesday, isn’t it?

Justin:

And it’s Megan’s birthday.

Mark:

Ah, happy birthday, Megan.

Justin:

Yes. She’s twenty years old today.

Mark:

Okay. I didn’t mean to laugh quite that hard.

Justin:

You weren’t laughing at that, you were laughing at uh

Mark:

I just

Justin:

I got nothing. No

Mark:

So yeah, well happy birthday to Megan

Justin:

still in her thirties

Mark:

Good for her.

Justin:

That’s that that’s what I can tell you.

Mark:

That’s fair enough. And um let it go and

Justin:

lords it over me.

Mark:

We’ll let it go with that.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

She’s still got me.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yep, I’m still the old guy. She’s still the young spring chicken. But yes, it’s her birthday today.

Mark:

Well neat.

Justin:

Hope she has a good one.

Mark:

Yes, any special plans that you can share.

Justin:

Uh today, uh specifically no, she’s she’s got some plans as far as having a chill day and good

Mark:

divert

Justin:

things and I’m gonna make some cookies for her.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

a table um for our deck called our outdoor table and kinda sorta as our birthday present for her.

Mark:

Oh neat.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Neat. What kind of cookies you can make? Uh

Justin:

butterscotch cookies.

Mark:

Butterscotch cookies.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Huh.

Justin:

That’s what she requested. I’m happy to oblige.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt, and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. So you can uh send me some good vibes, I can make some good cookies.

Mark:

There you go. There you go. I’m sure you can make some good cookies.

Justin:

I think I can.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Where we’re uh when when you think about sending vibes

Justin:

I knew I was gonna get caught with that one.

Mark:

Where where do the vibes come from? Uh how do you send a vibe?

Justin:

You have to like Make your brain vibrate towards somebody.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In a positive direction.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

How can vibr how can vibration be positive or negative? Aren’t they like a sideways?

Justin:

Haven’t you heard the song?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The Beach Boys.

Mark:

But uh yeah.

Justin:

Ask them about it.

Mark:

I just I was asking you.

Justin:

I don’t think I have a good answer. I think it’s just uh You know, positive feelings towards someone.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And but I think about it, you know, in the seventies, that was the seventies, right? When the Beach Boys were doing good vibrations. And it’s funny how it’s just seems like it has come back.

Justin:

Yeah. Or it never went away.

Mark:

It’s it’s yeah, vibes is kind of a popular Vogue.

Justin:

No, what’s the word we used to say that I looked up?

Mark:

The Zitelgeist?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Zeitgeist?

Justin:

Zeitgeist.

Mark:

Zeitgeist.

Justin:

Beetlejuice.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah. Zeitgeist. It’s back in the Zeitgeist.

Mark:

Understood.

Justin:

Yeah. That is interesting.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think it’s a way to like not be spiritual. But still be spiritual towards someone, if that makes sense. Yes, exactly. But without having to say I’m praying for you or

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

That kind of thing, or like you said, blessings.

Mark:

Sending vibe, good vibes your way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s typically a very nice thing to hear. You know.

Mark:

Just trying to catch up. Yeah. Yeah. Making sure I was uh using it correctly in

Justin:

terminology.

Mark:

If I should choose.

Justin:

You can use that in your counseling session.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

All right, let’s start off with some good vibes.

Mark:

That sounds real nebulous to me.

Justin:

It is. That’s the point I think. There you go.

Mark:

It’s not offensive.

Justin:

That’s right. Yeah. Unless you’re Mark.

Mark:

No, I wasn’t offended.

Justin:

I was just

Mark:

I was thinking about that, yeah.

Justin:

Mm-hmm

Mark:

as far as uh practical sense.

Justin:

I thought it’d be weird to ask for prayer that I made good cookies, so Oh yeah, when people hear this, the cookies will have been gone.

Mark:

No, that’s true. Yeah, it’s like it’s nothing. Can you send vibes in reverse? I mean over time. You know? I know of prayers, of course.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. That blessing song comes to mind. Lord bless you, keep you, make his face shine. You know, it’s uh

Justin:

that’s future.

Mark:

Yeah. But that becomes part of legacy.

Justin:

Mm-hmm

Mark:

From my perspective.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

I think you can pray p uh pa past prayers, right? Don’t you think No, that probably won’t get answered, but it doesn’t mean you can’t pray it.

Mark:

Prayers that affect

Justin:

retroactive

Mark:

history?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Ah. I wouldn’t see why not.

Justin:

I mean Lazarus comes to mind, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Not that they were praying he would come back to life. They they should they should have. They would have had their prayers answered.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Keep that in mind.

Mark:

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Because we can only we can only pray I was thinking God would know the beginning from the end.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

But w if we’re praying about it, it’s either gonna happen or it’s something that has happened.

Justin:

Yeah. Well the thing is, but

Mark:

God knows.

Justin:

Arguably God operates out us outside of time.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right. So there’s no difference between asking for something in the future and the past for him.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I mean that breaks our brain, right? But

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

It’s not so linear for him.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

But

Mark:

so he would know the prayers that we’re praying in the future about our past.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah. So he can he could still answer our future prayers about our past.

Justin:

He could.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

‘Cause he would know that they were gonna be uttered at some time.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The thing is the thing is if he listened to he knew we were gonna ask the prayer and he said, I guess I’ll answer that. Then he would go back in time and then we would he would fix it.

Mark:

No, it’s not that he goes back in time. He just takes it into account. Come on now.

Justin:

Goes back in time, changes it And then we don’t ask the prayer anymore because it never happened.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Right? It’s a inception no

Mark:

that’s not how I see it.

Justin:

That’s not how you see it. How do you see it?

Mark:

I see it that he can hear, he knows our prayers for the future.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And he takes them into account.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Even in the past. Even what is my past now.

Justin:

plan, the ultimate plan

Mark:

the ultimate plan. Yeah. That’s yeah.

Justin:

Yeah I agree. I was gonna yeah say that too.

Mark:

You were gonna say that too.

Justin:

Well

Mark:

but you chose to say what you said in the past. This should be a this should be a a time warp uh uh podcast. Yes. Past, present, and future.

Justin:

That’s right. So now you need to just pause it and then fast forward to the end.

Mark:

Well you know that’s right. But it’s interesting I was thinking about how that ties into our topic because I I think As we think about our topic for the day, you know, old versus new comes to mind. Because I think, you know, things do tend to get like vibes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Things do tend to become popular again. Yeah. Like bell bottoms.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Skinny jeans will come back eventually if they’re you know still around type thing, you know. But I think Things get recycled.

Justin:

Yeah, because history repeats itself.

Mark:

History repeats itself. Yeah.

Justin:

Oh, you hear those birds?

Mark:

I do hear those birds.

Justin:

Very amplified. I hope you like birds.

Mark:

‘Cause it’s a nice cool morning and the windows are open and yeah.

Justin:

And that bird is happy and we can’t and we wouldn’t want to stop that. So

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

Yeah, all versus new history repeats itself. I feel like Man, that that one quote you have or the thing you talk about where the m the man the weak man is You say it.

Mark:

The uh bad times make strong men Strong men make good times. Good times make weak men. Weak men make bad times. Yes.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Just good stuff.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

And that’s history repeating itself essentially in what was shunned by one generation starts to look appealing again. Yeah. You know, because you can see that that pattern would have uh impact that, right? Like things aren’t working the way they are. Therefore we need something shiny and new.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

If you’re in bad times or if you’re in good times you’re about protectionism and keep what we got.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Even if it’s not exactly Right. But yeah.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

But yeah, I agree. That’s a that’s a good point about old and new and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So what are we talking about?

Mark:

So when you think about that, I’m just see what what other than that, what cycles come to mind? What do you think of that’s something else can you think of something else off the top of your head? Other I mean you can go to the topic of course, but

Justin:

Well, I wouldn’t necessarily think of that topic because both of those concepts are fairly new in terms of the what we call ’em. But maybe those same systems existed.

Mark:

Well I think and and what we’re talking about is capitalism and socialism. If you hadn’t pro-pro law. But I think about that in the socialism’s been around.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s not necessarily a new, it’s it’s we’ve been able to see a cycle

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In what has been socialism. I think of, you know, socialism in a lot of ways as, you know, similar to Marxism, you know, in that era, if you will. And yet I think it has become an a more popular perspective as we think about, you know, okay. I think it, you know, no no one no one has to, you know, you don’t have to pay for your college education. You know, that kind of thing. I think, you know, that’s that’s socialistic in its thinking. Mm-hmm. And yet I recognize how from my perspective socialism kind of failed under Marxism in that era. And

Justin:

it’s kind of the extreme version of socialism, right? Like by extreme I mean most ideal uh kind of mindset of how it should work.

Mark:

Sure. But I I think most things are presented

Justin:

in their

Mark:

most ideal.

Justin:

I say that Well, just kinda tipping my hand a little bit in the sense that I think it’ll be interesting to talk about some the democratic socialism thing that’s going on right now.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um, but We don’t have to jump there right now, but I feel like that is a different flavor, a modified flavor of the original

Mark:

you know. Okay. I see what you’re saying So it’s a yeah, it’s a modified version.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Because we recognize we

Justin:

like a half calf.

Mark:

Okay. So we saw that the the Marxist socialism didn’t work, so we’re trying to reinvent it in such a way that it will work now.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. So what’s interesting in in there’s the the reason is is because you know, there are a pretty large contingency of people who don’t believe capitalism is working either.

Mark:

Gotcha.

Justin:

But, you know, it depends on your definition of working, and I think that’s really where the uh polarization comes, right? Is won’t like one side will say that side’s not working so we need this side and the other side well that side’s not working and this one is is You know, or whatever, you know, and

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And I think it just

Mark:

Can you explain that a little more? I because when you said one side’s not working, I was thinking I automatically went to work as in people are working like a socialism dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But you were talking more about capitalism. In other words, a model that’s not working.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Versus an individual that’s not working.

Justin:

Well this is something I yes, right, right, right, right. So I mean uh that’s a good point and we should address that Um I would say a lot of people far from the ideals of socialism would say socialism really at its core is just about you not having to work and that’s dumb. I gotcha. Okay. And that’s a very polarized viewpoint of it. Um

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Um but one thing I’ve been hearing a lot from people who uh are up have an appeal towards the democratic socialism or more, you know, is this idea that you work hard, but also there are some things that are just a right for you that are given as a right because that’s what we believe in socially together is a right. So education would be one and Ch uh healthcare is the two most common things I’ve heard.

Mark:

Sure. No, I hear you.

Justin:

Um you can agree or disagree, but I’m saying that’s kinda the th the thing. So there’s not this idea that you shouldn’t work, it’s that your work shouldn’t have to account for those things.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I’m Uh yeah, we can ‘t.

Mark:

Because those things should be provided as a right to you regardless.

Justin:

Exactly. Kinda. Um You know, one of the analogies is like you’ve you have this right to roads, right? You can get across town, you can get across country driving on these public roads, they’re a right that you have that is given by the government and it’s part of you know what you pay taxes for. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But there’s no reason that other than we just agreed together, that’s a that’s a good thing that you should have a right to. Right? So where do we draw those lines and say, yeah, but not healthcare or whatever. And I’m not I’m not trying to make Here’s the thing. I’m not gonna try and make a case for anything. I’m just trying to say I think there’s room for the conversation. Um and like there are you know, there are countries doing this, right? I think uh Norway is one.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I think where they’re a very successful country uh and they have very high taxes and their uh the h healthcare and um You know, school correct

Mark:

college is

Justin:

covered. Yeah, education is covered. Um to a degree, right? If you choose to go to a m more expensive university or whatever, I think, you know, right. There’s some limits. But they’re doing that in their successful country and it hasn’t broken everyone, you know, and that ’cause that’s the thing about socialism, right? Especially Marxism is just everyone’s broke. Like when I mean when I mean

Mark:

control.

Justin:

I don’t mean uh money broke, I mean like spirit broke.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s like You we’ve talked about this. We’re meant to work.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Yeah, you you take away that purpose and say, well, you’re gonna work, but it’s gonna be for the Everybody’s good and it really, man, just sucks the purpose out of each individual’s life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You just become a worker bee.

Mark:

Yeah. I’m cool. I’m curious what uh I this is interesting because that was the first I’d ever thought about roads being a right.

Justin:

Well I right is I don’t know if that’s the right thing.

Mark:

‘Cause I could say there’s things that I would s probably use every day, like a road, like you know, I wouldn’t necessarily consider it my right. You know , because in some ways I would automatically go to the fact, well, no, those roads are there, yes. But I also have to license a vehicle. I have to, you know, do these things. I have to pay for these things.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And granted, I can walk that road without paying anything for it. You know, so I’d still have the access to it. But yeah, I’m not sure. Well I mean

Justin:

crowds is just one thing, but just Go through the plethora of things that is provided through our taxes and through the government. No, I hear you. Like the list is very long.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So that’s kind of what I’m saying. It’s like where why did we draw those lines? You know.

Mark:

Right. And I and I guess that’s where I think some of the polarization also comes from is because we want to assign I would say those in the socialistic dynamic would say this is a right. This should be a right. And it’s like, okay, why that? You know, and I here understand, you know, where you’re coming from with healthcare and, you know, and right to education and There again, I would still, yeah, is is a college education valuable to everyone? Mm-hmm. You know, in that process or, you know, because I think so often it can get so focused, and I think for years it has become so focused on, you know, college education that now we’re looking for trades and you know, yeah people to actually work with their hands type stuff, you know, in such a way that we probably haven’t ever experienced before. You know.

Justin:

Well I’m not gonna say this is for sure or true, but if I recall correctly I feel like European countries have way more uh trade representation in schools. Right in college. So like that you could choose either path.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And have that paid for kind of thing.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Um Don’t quote me, but I I think I think that’s true based on

Mark:

Yeah. Justin is not saying he’s gonna leave he’s uh anything against the United States and he’s moving to Europe tomorrow. He’s not saying that.

Justin:

No. No.

Mark:

He’s just aware.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or thinks he is aware. Right.

Justin:

He just thinks he’s aware of things. Thinks he knows that it’s the story of my life. This is how I see it, so I can say whatever I want.

Mark:

Because he thinks he knows. And that’s okay too. So anyways, back to that uh aspect of uh when you see when you think about capitalism.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

‘Cause it’s interesting as w as I as we have this discussion, it’s like there’s there there’s people that come to mind, you know, that we’ll talk about like you’re saying capitalism is just this terrible nasty thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that I have in my, you know, people that I have in my mind. And it’s like, you know When you and you know it ‘s it’s that democratic socialism perspective.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, and it and it’s just interesting how that has become more pervasive.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

From a from a cyclical or yeah.

Justin:

Well, we’ve talked about this too in the past about how the the reason polarizing subjects become polarizing is because it becomes easier to push your point of view when you can quickly summarize and vilify the other point of view. So like I think Any idea that becomes popular enough is gonna find an enemy to say, I’m better than that, right? And kind of summarize its problems in this cute little tidy package to say, look how bad it is. Um so I I I mean I feel like that’s just part of this whole that’s why we do these conversations, right? It’s like let’s uh flatten it this curve out a little bit or like, you know, break down some of the the problems with summarizing that other side so succinctly, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

‘Cause it’s not it’s never that simple.

Mark:

And I think that’s where I’m at even with the topic this morning. It’s like, okay, I’m I’ll admit I’m pretty well entrenched if you can’t tell. And on the uh you know, that I see capitalism as being a healthy principle, you know, in the process of When and as I define that, I’m willing to recognize, yes, parts of capitalism can take advantage of people. And this is my how I see it. from a pros and cons perspective, I’m willing to recognize capitalism can take advantage of people.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And that as I’ll if I may, I’ll refer to it as that democratic socialization would be the other side of the spectrum that would say, okay, yeah, it’s not right to take advantage of people

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So in this democratic socialism, we won’t have our desire is to do away with, you know, this process where some people are taken advantage of and there are others who are you know, getting all of the funds or, you know, having all of the income, making all the profit. That’s what I’m that’s where I’m, you know.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Because In this democratic socialism, there’s the idea that that wouldn’t happen.

Justin:

Right. Or Less so.

Mark:

Less so, yes. Yeah, I mean a half cap

Justin:

version of it, I would say that where the full on version would say, it’s gone. You know, we’re equal.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah

Mark:

And that’s and that’s where we’re creating this continuum, if you will.

Justin:

Yes, yeah.

Mark:

That basically says on one end, you know, nobody has to pay, and yet there just isn’t any purpose as we’re seeing it. And yet there is this ability that we have in some ways to likely provide for education or for health care. And then again that that dynamic becomes, okay, where do we draw this line?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So now do you have a right to a dog and a cat if you want one? And you just go pick you, I’m not trying to simplify but where do those

Justin:

But that’s the same argument of of the healthcare thing. Like where do you draw the line? Why do we get roads? You know, it’s like you’re right. At some point we have to draw a line.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um A lot of people would argue the line’s not far enough right now. And other people would argue it’s too far, right? Like there’s there’s certainly a ton of conservatives minding people that say there’s too much government regulation and involvement right now, which I agree with ironically.

Mark:

So would you say I mean I’ll I’ll call it Obamacare. Would you say that was a part of that democratic socialism where it started to become a process? Okay. That’s we’re talking about the same thing.

Justin:

Yeah. I believe that there are countries doing child care uh child care uh health care and uh I mean maybe child care too Uh healthcare at at the government level and it’s successful from from the perspective that we have right now with the amount of time they’ve been doing it, right? So that’s not a It’s not a crazy notion that’s like, oh, you know, what are they thinking? It’s like, no, it’s it’s a viable thing that peop there are countries that do. That being said, the version that we came up with was just a typical kind of I wanna say bastardized version of the original intent, right?

Mark:

Okay

Justin:

because it ended up having ha to have parents that were also Republicans, right? If if going with that analogy. And therefore what came out was kind of this amalgamation of having to please everybody. And it ‘s just I mean especially it’s a rollout, right? Originally.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It was the laughing stock of the Republican side of like, look how terrible this website is, it doesn’t work, da da da Um that being said, I feel like it probably provides some opportunities where they didn’t exist before and there are many, many, many people in this country that are thankful that that became a thing, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So at this point I don’t know I I don’t I honestly don’t even know how to gauge how successful it is. I don’t know if it’s got successful. I don’t know if it’s

Mark:

And how

Justin:

doing the job it’s supposed to.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, I do know it’s not doing the job of the intent of the people who you know, came up with this idea.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I also know it’s doing more than what the people who didn’t want it to happen w you know what I mean?

Mark:

Right, right. Yeah.

Justin:

So I don’t know if that’s a great

Mark:

Is it a positive

Justin:

good example of like you know, democratic socialistic idea that’s w currently in the works is it feels like it’s a very much pared down, watered down version of it, but still bring some merit to some. But again, this is very armchair, very how I see. Yeah. And I would I’d be interested to hear what people who actually know this stuff would say.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

On both sides. Like people who say it doesn’t work and people

Mark:

I was thinking of Mary Beth and that kind of, you know, someone who’s been in that health industry, you know, and that dynamic where, you know, you hear, well, you don’t have access to, you know, other people and you have to and I think, you know, I saw it in the um community mental health, you know, you you have to go through these steps.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, you can’t you can’t have access to that yet because you haven’t tried this, this, this, and this.

Justin:

So that’s that’s that’s the worst part to me about that Obamacare is it basically takes this democratic socialistic ideal Entry point and like kinda sh jams it on top of this terribly broken wonky system.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

It’s built on a terrible foundation, right? The way insurance has always worked and the way healthcare has always worked in the US Which is very capitalistic based, right? And one would o totally could and should argue that there are reasons why the US leads some uh innovation in terms of you know, whatever. Uh pharmaceutical things and and treatment and it’s like, well, capitalism’s working in that sense.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right? But in the other sense it means Normal health care is broken.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Like just that whole system. Yeah. Go back to you know, listen to that episode, you you’ll get an idea of it. It’s like let’s take this system that’s this broken and let’s add on this other like crazy attachment piece on the top to somehow create a funnel for some people to get into this crazy system.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

I do. I do. I hear where you’re coming from because in some ways if we think about it from a capitalistic perspective, you know, where, you know, if we if I may say big pharma, that kind of thing is driving the the machine.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And or so it would seem.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, based on who we’ve talked to and experienced that kind of thing. Yeah, it does seem as if there is this desire to say, okay, this isn’t this isn’t healthy capitalism.

Justin:

If I’m

Mark:

if I may say so. So we’re gonna kind of amend that in some ways with this democratic socialism.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And you know, we’re gonna try and shift it

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s I mean that’s how

Justin:

you see why I choose the word I did. It’s like this version that comes out at the end.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It’s just So silly. That’s a nice way to put it. And you but you’re hitting on uh this bigger idea that again I can speak uh m pretty a lot to a lot of the talking points of the social social democra d democracy whatever they call that. Um because the a lot of the media I consume is people who are kinda on that side. So Um I I I see a lot of the strengths and I I think the arguments are good. But I also uh grew up in the capitalism argument and I can I can make that one I think decently, but to me the more interesting argument is the s democratic socialism one. Whether I want our government to switch to that. Well no, I wouldn’t want it I d I really don’t think the kind of government that I think would work could happen in the US the way you know what I mean.

Mark:

No. Help help me understand that.

Justin:

Okay, so

Mark:

because the the founding

Justin:

Obamacare and the health care thing is a perfect example of that. Like what you end up at the end of a thing is this compromise version. And so I do think there’s some uh in order for some of that stuff to work, there needs to be some foundational shifts that are gonna r upend a lot of, you know, the country in a bad way. Like I I don’t I don’t think it it’s possible to do it any other way. Whole industries are gonna get upended or shifted or whatever in order to shift this whole system to a way that is kind of fits th the way that it can work successfully.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I’m not arguing that that should happen, right? Like I don’t I don’t know what the answer is other than uh that we keep working on it and seeing where um our current system is failing and try and augment those things. But I mean I I just feel like

Mark:

Would you and and here again, I’ll I’m gonna kind of shifted away from healthcare. Not that we can’t you know stay there as far as that goes, but I’m I’m trying to think of other areas that would basically kind of affirm what you’re saying in this process. But and I and I think of fuels or energy.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, as far as, you know, our fossil fuel reliance, if you will, that could be another, you know, and now we’re bringing you know, electric cars into the dynamic, we’re bringing, you know, uh windmills online, you know, all these things that are costing. uh or or have a price tag associated with them, you know, photovoltaics as far as, you know, solar cells and that kind of thing. You know, vers and I I I kind of think of that in some ways. as, you know, this this process of trying to shift a foundational reliance on you know, fossil fuel as far as, you know, gasoline and, you know, that kind of thing as we know it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, that Even what what we might call the green dynamic. Yeah. You know, or what’s what’s uh what was um the other lady that had the green um oh is the she wanted to shut down Oh shucks. She was like shutting down all the old antiquated government buildings. I can’t think of her name.

Justin:

When you said Green, I thought of Ralph Nader. I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about.

Mark:

Oh shucks. But it’s okay. There’s a it was a lady here just recently.

Justin:

Interesting. Yeah.

Mark:

You know, was talking about uh yeah. But I I think about it in that context of being able, you know, this this desire to completely change and and granted I’m not opposed to supplemental things that But I’m gonna almost I’m gonna look at that from my capitalistic perspective and say, okay, is it is it beneficial long term? Are we are we real or are we just propping up a

Justin:

trading one pro problem in our world for another.

Mark:

Yeah. Or and and are we are we propping up one um system, you know, like electric cars, if I may. So is the government coming in to produce electric cars, but yet this isn’t really feasible for a long-term solution to offset our reliance. You know, that kind of thing. That’s You know, ’cause that’s a waste to me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

From that perspective. Not that I’m not willing to look for alternatives, and I think there are some alternatives that are actually feasible, yeah. But for some reason, you know, we don’t always consider them.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s also about funding, right? I think what you’re basically what you’re saying is the government’s thrown its weight behind uh electric cars and that kind of thing. Therefore that’s where the funding is. That’s where the um uh investment goes because it’s like well if you’re successful then we can get government backing and that’s part of our success metric, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

So yeah, I think part of the issue with us not having other alternatives is just has to do with the focus of the weight of the

Mark:

Yeah. And I think at times the government will prop up a dynamic that left to its own market and a capitalistic it it would fail otherwise. Because unless the government threw that money in that, we you know, the average investor is saying now that’s not gonna work. That’s not gonna make it

Justin:

survival of the fittest and that’s not the fittest.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Yeah. No, I agree

Mark:

And that’s where, you know, uh that’s that’s the other part of it I think that, you know, puts a puts a negative taste because what it does from my perspective, you know, it’s like now the the person who’s just trying to mow lawns and put you know, gasoline in their lawnmower to get lawnmows now has to pay a higher fuel price or something just because we’ve kind of made that market a little more Volatile.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And now it fluctuates, it goes up, you know, because we’ve, you know, create and I’m not saying, but I think so often, as with a a government dynamic, it’s when we’ve thrown this weight behind it that it kind of shifts versus allowing something to build in such a way that says, okay, yeah, this is a viable alternative.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that’s yeah, that’s the hard thing is like we do expect our government to do that sometimes where where where naturally things won’t occur, you know.

Mark:

Sure. Well I think I think, you know Propping up the housing market here just recently. I think that was I think from what I hear from other people, bankers, you know, that kind of thing That was a necessary thing for the government to come in and do. Now whether it’s pro whether it was necessary to prop up some of the um automotive, you know years ago.

Justin:

Yeah, protect them from the natural ends that were coming at ’em. Yeah.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, the bankruptcies and all that.

Mark:

The bankruptcies, you know. You know, were What was it? Who was it Chrysler that didn’t take one? And they they had they saw a big bump in their podcast

Justin:

episode where Ford’s uh CEO was on it. Interesting dude.

Mark:

Oh neat.

Justin:

Yeah. He he was talking about that, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, because I just recently saw their advertising that talks about how much how many things they produce in the US too. I know Ford is definitely but

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So I I think about that in that and I didn’t I didn’t and granted fossil fuels or energy is another is is one more of those dynamics that I see. you know, where it kind of comes back to what you’re saying. It would take a fundamental shift, you know, to do some of these things. But I think, you know, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Can you think of another market?

Justin:

Um

Mark:

housing you know and automotive we we kind of talked about, but where do you where you know where you see that dynamic between s uh democratic socialism and capitalism kind of desiring to morph one that is basically a a foundational dynamic that we’ve become used to.

Justin:

I I don’t know, but I think um I I don’t know if I have an answer to that question. Um well just thinking about how This is I don’t know a ton about it, but I know I’m pretty sure the government controls the electric grid, right?

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

To a large degree. I got you.

Mark:

It makes sense. Yep. Yep.

Justin:

And again, why’d we draw the line there? Right.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

To say they should have control over that. Well, you know, I think in a lot of ways it’s kind of feels obvious. you know, if one part of the grid goes down, it could impact whatever. I don’t know. Stability, whatever.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um, why don’t they then why aren’t they in charge of internet, right? Uh in other words, we’re drawing lines everywhere and saying this is where the government’s involved, this is where it’s not, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um I think we get very hung up on, yeah, but they can’t touch that because that turns us into socialism or whatever. It’s like, well, why is that the thing?

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

It’s typically when the thing is something that ha is clearly for social good, right? Like a s this idea of

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

The idea of so a social

Mark:

Sure. Or how I see what would be a social good versus what is currently in place.

Justin:

Right, right. you know, grid that whole thing is for social good, it’s it’s more ground level than that, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um I don’t know. It’s it it’s just interesting how we

Mark:

‘re interesting that you think about it. I mean There’s that part of us that could say, yeah, if we have a federal government over top of this electrical, we’re able to balance out. and make up for other states, if you will, that don’t have all of the ability to produce energy like some states that might. You follow me? I’m I’m just and here again, nothing against anybody, but you take a a state like Texas that has, you know sun most say, you know, southern states, let’s put it that way, who have sun most of the year versus northern northeastern states. that might not be able to take advantage of photo cells and those kind of things. Whereas, you know, some places might have more wind options, you know, or hydroelectric dams where you know y you know you can m generate energy and I can understand from a governmental perspective okay those places that can you know, almost have the ability, I won’t necessarily to provide for others that can’t.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I can uh understand that.

Justin:

But that’s working for so it’s easy to kinda go. Yeah, but that one’s necessary because look It’s you see how it’s necessary. It’s basically kind of uh I’m not saying this is what you’re doing. It’s like but it’s like that can become circular reasoning of like Well it’s necessary ’cause it’s working, it’s working ’cause it’s necessary.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

It’s like uh therefore it’s not the same as healthcare, for instance.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Again. We don’t know if that if if that was fundamentally shifted to be more you know, at the very low levels um government whatever, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Again, the shift that it would take I can’t even fathom. But um Yeah, I I’m curious if it’d be interesting to know, which I don’t think we can know if the way that the government handles the power grid has stifled uh innovation in that area in the US. Like w these areas where the government is very involved in in you know, fundamental in the the way the thing works. It’d be interesting to know if that has stifled innovation because that is one of the big arguments and I would imagine so, probably. But we kind of say that’s worth that, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

The stability.

Mark:

And I w I wanna say, you know, based on where we are and the fact that, you know, the energy you know, plant is right over there. You know, we know a number of people who would, you know, argue that probably nuclear is the is the cheapest way. Yeah. to produce, but yet it has a unsavory, you know, flavor to it for the com you know

Justin:

They get bad press when they blow up.

Mark:

And and they cost a a a good bit to produce. to put the safeguards in place from a governmental standpoint. You know, it’s not like you can just put a nuclear uh reactor in your backyard, you know, with no uh oversight.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, it is interesting when we think about it in that, you know, stepping over or what it costs to do something you know, versus, you know, what might be what might seem more palatable, but may not necessarily be as efficient.

Justin:

Right. Or cause other problems that are equally as distasteful, um, you know, uh impacting the g the The world.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The environment. Yeah.

Mark:

Or maybe they just don’t make the media type dynamic.

Justin:

That’s what I mean. Like they because Yeah, so like uh what was that, a tsunami or whatever hit Japan and that’s what caused that nuclear plant to get submerged and d you know, they didn’t have the protocols in place for that type of event and that’s why it it was a really Bad thing. But it’s like that’s one big huge event media can all jump on and point to, but like the birds all dying because of the windmills.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

You know, it’s not one single event we can point to and all jump on the news cycle at once and therefore now we have a villain we can point to. And I feel like that’s part of nuclear’s problem, right? Is when they go bad. Everybody knows them when those situations but overall, again, based on information from friends of ours that work there, like nuclear is one of the better ways to go in terms of impact on the government. And you think, Yeah, but it produces nuclear waste. Well, you know, they all produce some sort of waste and, you know, they all have

Mark:

There’s ways to do that.

Justin:

So it’s gone out of favor. We haven’t built m very many new nuclear plants in the last fifty years because of that. Because we are a government by the people for the most part. So like You know, our representatives aren’t gonna allow new nuclear exactly. Yeah. Who wants it in land? Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and it’s interesting that I mean, as I think about, you know, just being able to have this conversation to allow, you know, kind of pull my personal biases and viewpoints back, you know. I think it’s interesting because I think at the at the heart of some of this is our desire or it reflects a desire for change.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And how yeah difficult that can be.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Especially the more you know, beneficial that I I see something being to me.

Justin:

Yeah. The way it is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Or the event. If it’s if

Mark:

it’s benefiting me currently, I probably have very little desire for it to change.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s normal. Exactly. That’s human nature. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And yeah, if you will, the our ability and I think this is where the two come into conflict. And I think, you know, as I’m kind of wrestling with this, you know, as the two come into conflict, I d it’s a s it’s it’s not everything has to always be about me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I can basically allow myself to be able to say, okay, is there a way that I can help someone else in that process, even if it might Inhibit me a little bit.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or maybe even a lot, if necessary, you know.

Justin:

The greater good kind of thing. Yeah. That that’s hard to do that. You know, it’s interesting, you know, we talk about second order thinking before. Uh the Chesterton’s fence episodes, this idea that well, we can make this change now and it has these first order consequences, but what are the second order?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I would say both you know, on every side of a polarizing argument. People are pretty good about second order thinking the consequences of the thing they don’t want

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

Right? Like

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Uh and it like that’s where you get all your talking points and that’s where people get really like, Yeah, that’s bad ’cause if that happens then that will happen, which means that will happen. Yeah. But they’re not willing to do the same homework. on the the status quo.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

If we stay here, what are the consequences to that? What are the second order consequ what are the second order consequences we’re currently entrenched in as a result of this status quo.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, and of course, both sides are good at kind of flinging that. mud and saying your second order consequences look like this, you know.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, but yours look like this. And I don’t know, I just I thought that was it I I just m sprung to my mind like how good we are about kind of really doing our homework and or you know, listening to podcasts, whatever, the news and going, Yeah, that’s right. If If electric cars and that will happen and which means that will happen and instead of going but if fossil fuels then this is and this is happening because of that, it’s like yeah, yeah, but I’ll take the devil I know, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah. No, I’m I definitely yeah. And I think I think that can go so much further in our lives in some ways than than just the topics of capitalism and socialism.

Justin:

That’s true, yeah.

Mark:

That kind of thing As we you know.

Justin:

You know there’s a term for government uh controlled by the c companies. Have have you heard that term or that argument or that thing?

Mark:

No, but I’d be curious to know.

Justin:

Well it’s not this isn’t the one I remember, but I did Google it as Corp corporate corporate corporatocracy.

Mark:

Okay. Can you say that one more time?

Justin:

No, I can’t probably

Mark:

Corpitocracy.

Justin:

Uh but that’s not uh what’s an oligarchy? Do you know what that is? That’s the word that I thought.

Mark:

I know of the word

Justin:

Okay, okay, okay, okay. Well oligarchy is the one I was thinking of, and it’s a small group of peop people having control of a country organization or institution. Basically there’s been One of the arguments on the democratic socialism side is that capitalism has produced an oligarchy. In other words, you know, the big corporations have the ability to lobby more than you do, Mark, for your little farm, right? So

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Therefore the government is mostly You know, and then also funding, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I hear where you’re coming from. Yeah, so ultimately the be the people with the most money, aka corporations, end up having the most control and therefore we are an oligarchy because a small group of people run the government. It’s not by the people. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, that yeah, I definitely understand. So that’s a pretty

Justin:

like that’s a significant uh kind of viewpoint or stance Uh that I think a lot of people on the pushing for den democratic socialism is kind of a war cry. There’s like well The way it is, the way capitalism has is has produced an oligarchy, you think the government is for you, but they’re not therefore Exxon You know what I mean? And Apple or whatever. Like the people who have the the the money to pay their their way to the top.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Kind of like we talk about big pharma in the medical industry.

Justin:

In big pharma, exactly. Yeah. So there’s a reason why we’ve had this opioid epidemic in the US. of the lobbying for these drugs are good, right? By people with lots of money, you know, right pushing into the the government system and therefore hiring or hiring uh causing uh politicians to get uh voted in who are then gonna vote for yeah we need to allow these drugs or whatever and then Wouldn’t you know it? Second order consequences. People are dying.

Mark:

Sure. Right? Yeah.

Justin:

R you know what I’m saying?

Mark:

No, I hear where you’re coming from. And

Justin:

but you know, these big pharma companies are doing mighty good as a result of all these deaths

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? No, I hear

Mark:

it.

Justin:

Financially they’re doing pretty good and the investors are therefore doing pretty good.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

No, I hear where you’re coming from. Yeah.

Justin:

It’s kind of an interesting I and I’m not of those

Mark:

Justin wants to go back to Shrewd’s

Justin:

right. Hey, if if that works, you know. Uh whatever Mary Beth says. That’s it. physics, right? So everything goes from basically div dives in devolves into chaos, right? So from organization to ki chaos is the natural direction of things. So we started the government with these we hold these truths to be self-evident and created this very like specific type of government that was very intentional and very defined and very Mm like principled, right? And I feel like entropy has kind of taken over in the last two hundred some years to where Mm it’s a water it’s a decap version of it, right?

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

And um it’s not the same government as it was then.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It it can’t be for many reasons, right? And but also just the law of physics says You know, anything anything that’s organized is gonna divolve into something less organized and more chaotic. And that’s a physical thing. That’s a law of physics, but you see it at work. in general, right? Like because I think that’s a lot of sin nature more than it’s not.

Mark:

Yeah, and I think that’s where I was that’s where of course where my mind was going is that that uh that organizing factor of in God We Trust type thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think that’s, you know, that tends our God, if you will, small G you know, tends to shift you know, with a with can shift with a capitalistic view or y even a socialistic view. And it’s like, okay, you know, what is big G God you know, have to say about this and as we desire to forget about him and, you know, we we tend to our sin nature is gonna tend to, well, it’s all about me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Whereas at times I need to be reflecting on, okay, how is this how is my need being met benefiting others or hurting others as well. Th

Justin:

yeah. You made me think of um recovery, higher power. So that’s a concept that’s in almost every recovery plan.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And even like an AA or whatever they say the higher power can be whatever you want, but you need to have one.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It’s this idea that there’s something above you that’s more important.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, and that you’re willing to listen to over your own impulses.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Which is very much kind of what you’re saying with In God We Trust, I do believe was very much intended to provide that sort of perspective for as a government to say ultimately we operate under a higher authority. We we talked about this before too, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um we operate under higher authority. So if it’s something we want but it disagrees with that higher authority, we don’t do it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And like you said, we’ve kind of tried to get that idea out because we are our own higher authority. But

Mark:

We know better.

Justin:

We’re selfish and we’re pit p petty and we’re you know, every addict will tell you I need a higher power because on my own You know? Any r any addict who’s worked through some recovery goes that higher power is crucial to to it. And again, uh one of the podcasts I listen to, he is a uh absolute atheist and he isn’t uh Alcoholics Anonymous and it’s not he’s not very anonymous about it, but uh uh higher power is something that he talks about a lot, how it’s important for him to just give up control and and and recognize that but he’s an atheist

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

you know, what I want personally. Sure. You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

So if we don’t have if we don’t trust in God, if it’s not in God we trust and it’s in me we trust in God help us. Right?

Mark:

Yes indeed. Yes indeed. Well I think that’s where we’re at for today.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

This is uh capitalism and socialism, uh Revised.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

So yes.

Justin:

The half-cap version.

Mark:

The half-cap versions. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.