Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. Through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

Good morning.

Mark:

Good morning. So

Justin:

what are we talking about today, Mark?

Mark:

I th I I think this is one of uh the topics that you can vet definitely appreciate. Changing your mind. When you think of changing your mind, what makes that topic important to you?

Justin:

It makes me think that I changed my mind we should do a different episode. For me, uh changing my mind changing our minds is I mean very important because you’ve probably already heard it in terms of its value, right? From from things I’ve said in past episodes. how I grew up thinking one way or you know understanding something one way and you know I’m now thirty-eight years old and I’ve changed my mind on a lot of things and For the most part those the changing of my mind has been very beneficial to my maturity, to my growth, to to becoming who it who it wasn’t supposed to be. Um

Mark:

So you see changing your mind, the ability to change your mind as part of a growth process. For and if you if I might to the the the ability to just hold on to something because I said so without investigation or without being able to do the hard work of challenging the thought, growth doesn’t occur. Is that kind of what you’re saying?

Justin:

Yeah, kinda. I think I think changing our mind is a function of maturity.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I I think I think they kind of go hand in hand. Now, obviously we we can mature in some ways without changing our mind if if Here here’s the crux, right? Sometimes we’re wrong. Right? And so if you’re not wrong, you don’t need to change your mind.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think that that is an important distinction to make. Because as we’ve talked about even in the fur very first episode, like we’re about seeking truth, whatever that that truth is, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I mean, that’s what this whole podcast is about, is seeking truth, getting, trying to find the truth nuggets, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um, the reason is It’s not always immediately obvious, right? Or intuitive. Or what we inherited from, you know. No from our parents and their parents in terms of kind of the understood truths, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um And so I think changing our minds is important in so many ways. I think it’s important in maturity. I also think, I mean, we just talked about the Holy Spirit in a previous episode and about how sometimes he tells us to change our mind, right? Like you were thinking this, you were planning this, but really you need to do this. And so being willing to change our minds, I think, is a function of of maturity spiritually and otherwise. What are your thoughts?

Mark:

Well it’s interesting as you as I think about, you know Changing your mind, I think there is that that process that can get caught up in a dynamic of change just for the sake of change. Which isn’t necessarily always truth. You follow me? And I think that that’s a that’s an important distinction. that I changed my mind because I realized I I can be wrong and son of a gun Surprise, surprise. I was I was wrong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And therefore what I believed wasn’t true. And I think for me, and this is this is a personal dynamic more so probably, um I see how believing a lie Can or or the finding the truth and the freedom of no longer believing a lie is is a is a process of changing my mind and how I think and and in in my in when I work with people it’s it’s the lies that we look to identify You follow me? What what have I, you know, what experience, what hurt habit, or hang up did I experience that has caused me to believe a lie? And and now I have developed these cycles and patterns based on that lie. And there’s a tremendous amount of work. that goes into overcoming those cycles and patterns that I’ve believed as true and finding the truth of saying, no, I was wrong. And I think that is kind of where, for me, what the heart of being able to change our mind, because if I can change the way that I think about who God is or or what his designs or purposes are for me, for sex, for finance. You know, if I can change those things. There’s a tremendous amount of potential and purpose there that I’d never be able to fully recognize without the ability to change my mind And I think it is I think it is through discussions like this, you know, that we’re able to have that conversation, or even uh I would dare say, especially even with God. It’s like, okay, God, this is what I’m thinking. Help me see what you want me to see. And I think we can do that with other trusted individuals as well. And what we’re doing when we engage that process is we are effectively looking to change our mind.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or being open to Hm.

Justin:

Uh as you were talking it it kind of just occurred to me like pretty much the whole purpose of a counselor is to help you change your mind. Right? In one way or another.

Mark:

I s yeah, I see where you’re coming from. It’s not that the yeah It’s not that we always go in wanting to change our mind, but we’ve recognized that we’re here for a reason. And really that’s what has brought me here. And it’s like it is that point of saying, okay, I have this thing in my life that causes me issues. So I need to c talk with someone else in such a way that helps me recognize that something isn’t the way I want it to be. Yeah, it takes another individual. Yeah, I’m hearing what you’re saying. And I think it’s interesting we just did the podcast on Holy Spirit, you know, and counselor and that that aspect of how Yeah, it just it just makes the fact that we don’t necessarily always have to have another person involved in that, but another person is also beneficial.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Well, I I am immediately think of my wife.

Mark:

Okay. How so?

Justin:

Well, you know, when we talk about changing our minds

Mark:

And

Justin:

how often in marriage, like that’s that’s a sticking point. It’s like like a man who doesn’t want to ask for directions. And they’re they’re lost and yet nope, I’m gonna figure it out. I know West is this way and you know this whole idea of like we’re in too deep now to change our minds or whatever. And I feel like that happens a lot in you know, long-term relationships like marriage, like parenting, or whatever. It’s like I’ve been down this road so long that I can’t turn around. This is this is where we’ll be now. I can’t change my mind. I can’t course correct we’re gonna make the most of where we are.

Mark:

So that being said, would you say pride? is often the greatest obstacle to changing your mind I’m not saying the greatest, but one of the obstacles. I just as you

Justin:

absolutely but I I feel like there’s so many things that can prevent us from fear. I mean this is goes back to what we were talking about earlier, but like fear control. Like I want to control what happens and I know If I don’t change my mind, right? If I stick with this thing, I know what I get.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So desire control, familiar. Yeah. I mean, it’s a it’s Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s where the cycles and patterns come in. I’d rather have the familiar cycle and pattern at times.

Justin:

Right, because it’s comforting.

Mark:

It’s comfortable, sure. Yeah, or comfort. Yeah, but like you say, it’s that comfort that keeps me from really oftentimes exposing myself to a different thought.

Justin:

Yeah, and uh it’s easier, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s easier to establish what I think I know and just stay there.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And um I mean, we all do it in some sense. Uh we’re not always yeah.

Mark:

We all do what in some sense? Change our mind or hold on to the thing.

Justin:

It doesn’t matter how open minded or whatever whatever values you use at some point you have to believe something, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s a good thing. Like we should I mean this kind so one of the things we have talked about before is being open minded, right?

Mark:

Yeah. I mean just saying that word.

Justin:

Yes. Open mind. The open-minded mind.

Mark:

Yes. I mean really yes you just did j Justin did just did the what is it crucible

Justin:

fingers crossed

Mark:

yeah the crucible type thing it’s like There I think in a lot of cases depending on when you grew up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think there’s a

Justin:

Yeah, that’s crazy Yeah.

Mark:

Open mindedness, depending on the tone.

Justin:

It’s my truth, Mark.

Mark:

It’s my truth. Yes. Depending on the tone that I use with op the word open-mindedness. There’s gonna be a there’s gonna be a a a thought that comes to mind, even like you’re saying, kinda almost that that hex that get away from me. I don’t want that.

Justin:

Yeah Yeah and

Mark:

speak to that for you.

Justin:

Well I love that you brought up the generational thing. It didn’t really occur to me, but yeah, it’s it’s so interesting how generationally values shift. And I would argue that being open-minded is one of the highest values of at least millennials, probably the next generation as well. And that’s where you know I jokingly said it’s My truth. I mean that is

Mark:

that was a joke?

Justin:

It was a joke. It is my truth, but uh yeah. Um no, I mean but that’s that’s a I think that’s an example of something our generation or your generation. is afraid of, right? It’s this idea that of relativity and everyone’s got their own version of truth and there’s no absolute truth. And that I think that’s the fear of open-mindedness is it’s all relative There’s not actual truth, it’s just shifting perspective of truth. And so one day I might believe this is true, and the next day it might you know, believe the opposite and it’s all relative depending on what my circumstances are and my influences around me. And um I mean for me , this this whole idea behind this episode is not about changing our minds to fit the narrative or to change our perspective or uh adapt my truth to include your truth or whatever. It’s about truth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s about I want the truth. I want to seek the truth. I want to find the truth. And when I’m not Believing the truth, I want to change my mind.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know? And so I think and and the again the whole idea of being open minded is such a scary concept uh because it means uh it’s often associated with with this idea of losing your values or or your your values being loosely held

Mark:

Yeah. Almost uh almost a a loss of character.

Justin:

Yes. Yep. Yep. And I think oh yeah. And it’s ironic too, like, just generationally Like a baby boomer would hear that and think that exactly what you just said. Like hear open-mindedness and think Yeah, you’re willing to give up your character.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Where uh a millennial or someone younger than that, right, would look at that Boomer and say, okay, Boomer.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And they say, I hear what you’re saying. You’re a bigot. You’re unwilling to uh you know, change. You’re on a moment. Change a phobe. Yeah, change a phobe. Yes, it’s a good way to put it. And I think both sides of those perspectives they’re based in truth. Right? Like they f both sides of that perspective have seen the result of that person of people being that way, whether it’s open minded or stuck in a you know, or And it stuck is the negative word, but like holding to what they believe to be true, right?

Mark:

Holding fast.

Justin:

Holding fast.

Mark:

Out of fear.

Justin:

Yeah Again, that’s negative. I’m trying to say value in both directions, but the other side is seeing the negative, right?

Mark:

Sure, and that’s why I’m say to where uh a millennial would see a boomer as holding and fearful and they’re not embracing

Justin:

and even pompous and arrogant, like

Mark:

sure

Justin:

they’re sitting on their pile of truth and And saying we have the monopoly on it, you know, kind of thing where they’re looking at it going, Uh no, that’s actually a pile of poop. You should probably get off of it. Sure.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh vice versa, like I think as a boomer you look at the generation as it is today and there isn’t an instilling of character through things like growing up on a farm and having to get up at two thirty in the morning and go milk the cows and

Mark:

like

Justin:

There’s a lack of of instilling of deep value-based character. Right? And so you we look at them and go, you have you’re not staying on anything. You’re standing on sand that’s shifting every day and you’re w a you’re happy with that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, and it and what we’re doing in a lot of cases is just Recognizing it’s my view of someone else that tends to keep me from changing my mind when I become judgmental. And I guess what it comes back to is this ability for me, I’m thinking about it from this aspect of, okay, how do I decide what is true?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because, you know, we can look at another, you know, the character or the lack of character, the ability to think outside the box. as being valuable, you know, not as shifting sands just with every storm type thing, but yet being able to weather the storm in such a way that says, okay, you know This is this is a this is a better way to think about this and how how do you define what is true? I mean I’m willing to go there myself, but and you know for you personally How do you decide, I guess, what is what is too far in and on that continuum or is there a too far where you’re concerned?

Justin:

That is a good question. Uh yeah, there’s a too far. I think, you know, I believe in the the authority of God’s word, the Bible. And so if something says do this and it’s the opposite of what the the word says then I’m that’s too far.

Mark:

I agree.

Justin:

And so there’s certainly in that word is full, right? But it doesn’t cover everything, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh but it but it is a great foundation to build on top of. And so if I find pieces of my beliefs Coming starting to be built off of that foundation, kind of in the area around the foundation, right? Then those are things number one I need to be careful about, and number two, should be able to be shifted

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. Um one of the examples I think about that comes to mind is again, growing up in a very conservative church, there was this idea that certain music was wrong.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Some music is evil. Some music’s just wrong. And some some music is actually God honoring. And if for some reason God chose Southern Gospel as his chosen It’s his chosen musical style. And that was God honoring and uh or hymns, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh of course hymns, who would Argue that hymns are wrong. Who else does that? The people in culture at the time they were being written thought they were the wrong way to worship because they weren’t uh pipe organs in a cathedral or whatever. So

Mark:

many of the hymns came out of bars in the yes.

Justin:

They copped the music from there and added new lyrics.

Mark:

And added new lyrics, sure

Justin:

Absolutely. And and then like growing up, like anything that was secular was just straight up evil. Anything that was Christian but had too much drums or guitar was just wrong. You know And that’s an example to me of like there’s nothing in the Bible that talks about music style. There’s nothing. And and yet we built this kind of structure off to the side of how what music should or shouldn’t look like look like you know and so I’ve been adapted my mindset on that so many times in in my life and changed my mind, right? And uh I’ve I’ve gone so far like all the way to the direction where I used to listen to a lot of Eminem.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And he is crass, he’s he’s terrible, right? Like he talks about the worst things on this planet in the worst possible way you can talk about it. And I was just like, it didn’t bother me. And then after a period of time I I recognized Number one, it doesn’t bother me. And also number two, it’s starting to bother me.

Mark:

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

Justin:

Yeah, it should. Um but ironically I also remember in that same time listening to one of his songs and almost tearing up because I was hearing the brokenness

Mark:

sure

Justin:

of what he came from. And it was like

Mark:

Vulnerability.

Justin:

Yes. And it was like empathy. was pouring in. And I was like, there are people who are growing up just like he did in these exact situations. And they’re thinking these same thoughts, how they want to murder their mom. Or whatever it is. Like this is real. And I don’t want to hear it because it doesn’t fit my pure Christian ears. You know, but at the same time, sometimes I need to hear be reminded of that. that there’s a whole culture that’s drawn to that because that’s a person who’s saying who they are. Does that make sense?

Mark:

There the that person is expressing a feeling that I’ve felt in some way but I just haven’t been willing to admit it necessarily.

Justin:

Right. Potentially, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And it it is it’s interesting as when you mentioned the word music, would you say that music or is the lyrics? You know, I I’m thinking about is it is me is there any kind of music that is evil or do we associate that drum beat? You know, and yet it’s when we tie the lyrics to it that we actually and I and I I because I think you know when I think of music, I think music can be g God ordained.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Period. You know, the ability to play something. I think it’s it’s even cathartic for individuals to just be able to play. you know, an instrument and and open their mind up in some ways to God and his creation and the ability to give me this talent and There’s a there’s a flow there. I don’t want to get too far off on that, but I I think you know it is it is part of that open-mindedness to see that, you know, okay. Is it the words or is it the music? Is it the sound that that I associate with being evil? I think of it from like a a TV show. We always know when the bad part’s gonna happen and nobody’s even playing any, nobody’s even has any lyrics to it. But because the music itself changes, we say dun dun dun and there’s this bad part coming.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I I guess I I’m I’m still connecting now. I don’t mean to get off a rabbit trail. But I’m

Justin:

I love this rabbit

Mark:

I’m thinking about it from that aspect of how many times like you mentioned in marriage is that difference wrong or is it just difference?

Justin:

Yeah. It’s good.

Mark:

And I think how we think about it being wrong. Or how we think about it being different is a part of that ability to have an open mind where my spouse is concerned.

Justin:

Or that race. Or that political party.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That’s yeah, that’s deep, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Is it wrong or is it different?

Mark:

Yeah. And it and is it still part of the wholeness that is true where God is concerned?

Justin:

Mm-hmm. So I’m gonna tie the music thing back in with this topic, which is uh so I’ve been involved in Celebrate Recovery for a long time and as a result I’ve hear I’ve heard hundreds of testimonies, right? Sure. And a a testimony is someone just sharing their story of how God worked in their life to change them from who they were to who they are now, which is still a work in progress, but you know, usually that story encompasses some pretty incredible journey type stuff and sometimes miracles. you know sometimes whatever but one of the things that I have learned in the course of these many years hearing these stories including my own right my own story includes some of is the concept and importance of redemption and how we tend to write off certain things, people , musical styles, w whatever you name it, right? And say that can’t be used for good.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And yet there’s a testimony out there of someone who said that was used for good in my life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That is a key part of why I’m here today. Changed you know, being transformed, right? But I can say that is my favorite problem. No, I’ll just say it’s my fa it’s one of my favorites. There’s lots of favorite aspects about God is the fact that he can take something so wrong, so evil, so gross, so whatever, and he can twist it.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Keep twisting it to where all of a sudden it’s bringing him glory. And you look at it and you go, what? How? Right? And that’s how what I believe about my own story and how he’s used the stuff in my past to twist it into something that brings him glory. Then now when I meet with young men who are working through their own struggles or whatever, I’m able to see him this is him using that garbage. to bring him glory. And again I see that I think that’s true of music. I th I don’t think there’s a musical style. I don’t think there’s a lyric. He cannot twist to bring him glory I don’t believe it’s possible. I believe that’s how big and sovereign our God is. That He’s not afraid or he or unable to overcome any evil in our planet it and transform it to bring him glory to bring someone closer to him now that doesn’t mean there’s a difference between what I believe he can use and what I believe is uh

Mark:

what he can use as part of a redemption story versus what is beneficial for me in the moment like like as as you explained kind of with your MM type process. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And I again there’s been yeah, just that that moment always comes to mind when I was listening to that MM song and I was just so filled with empathy and like brokenheartedness towards the Detroit youths. You know what I mean? Like like his upbringing and the people that they’re different. They grew up in a different atmosphere than I did. And I don’t know outside of that song if I would ever care about that particular group of people.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And

Mark:

there was a connection there.

Justin:

Right. And so just understanding that like I want to strive for things that are beneficial. But sometimes God can still use those alleys we stumbled in and do because we took the wrong term because we refused to use the GPS because we didn’t change our mind, right? Like that’s what redemption is, is taking what’s wrong and making it right.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. And so I think we can do the same thing. We can redeem stuff in our own lives when we’re wrong, when we’re shown a wrong thing to twist it, right? To teach us, to help us change our mind. And that can go for in our marriage. That can go in, you know, as parents or whatever and when what I’m doing isn’t working, I can keep doing it, which is what we call insanity, doing the same thing over and over again. again, expecting a different result. Or I can look at this and go, wait, we can redeem this, right? We can take this thing that’s broken and use it to to get me on the path towards what’s not broken. But that’s a lot a long-winded thing. What are your thoughts on that?

Mark:

I think in in some ways it it is coming back to For me, how that truth dynamic um can be part of a process But like you shared, I think we we typically need to bring that back to saying, okay, does this align with what God, with who God is or what God says?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Versus just a a questing, if you will, yeah. For knowledge.

Justin:

So let me ask you this.

Mark:

Fire away.

Justin:

How do you figure that out? How do you mark figure that out? And what are some you know tools that you could suggest for figuring out?

Mark:

I think for me, um some of it is gonna depend on how How not important, important isn’t the right word, but how crucial that truth is to me You follow me? Because is it is it is it seven or eight o’clock, you know, that kind of thing, it’s not gonna make a whole lot of difference. but

Justin:

in the morning or the evening.

Mark:

Yeah. Well, exactly. You know, to the to the is it is it, you know, because that it may that may be important, but Is it foundational like how I how I view my children or what I want the character that I may want to instill, you know, and uh um For me personally, I can I can recognize that it’s about me spending time with God and God’s word And I was thinking about this the other day, because for me personally as a parent, I recognize that that is probably that has become An area that I’m not sure that I always communicated well to my kids, the importance of God’s word to be able to define truth. I may have even said, you know, at times that all truth is God’s truth, but not always pointed in that direction of Scripture.

Justin:

God, yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And And yeah, I realized probably in some ways I might have modeled it, but I didn’t necessarily teach it. And I’ve wrestled with that and it it is a desire to do it differently, to change my mind and say, okay, I can’t do anything about what was then. But now it’s a matter of, okay, now I have this new awareness because I am mindful of what I am teaching and what I am modeling because it matters. Mm-hmm. And that’s that’s that’s different. So in that process, I am open to the ability to change my mind. I’m open to what God wants to show me. And even if it’s hurtful. Even if it’s to the point of being able to say, okay, you didn’t, you’re not perfect. And you being an imperfect father also is just part of the process that I don’t want your children to always turn to you. I want them to learn to turn to me. And in that process they actually find God’s truth, which is even greater than what I might instill in them. And that’s that’s how I would answer that question, is it it’s it’s a desire to grow with God in his truth because I do believe all truth is God’s truth. What is true in psychology is is still God’s truth. What is true in mathematics or science is still God’s truth. And I think that’s where we need to come back. And I think it’s for me, it becomes a process in patience. Cause I think sometimes we we want the truth right now. We want the fix right now. And it and it even this is this is what I you know it kind of blows my mind sometimes speaking of that open mindness and truth. People will come to my office at times and it’s it’s like they think I have a formula to decipher who is telling the truth and who is telling a lie.

Justin:

You don’t have that? The

Mark:

you know, and it’s like, and it’s it it and I I’m still amazed, mesmerized at times that, you know, people think that’s there. And granted, some of that can come out of you know, a process and just looking, but so often that truth is developed and I’ve had, you know, and it is just kind of I work with a couple and you know and there’s this this thought that you know they’re doing something, you know, it could be terrible something, it could be a lie, but it’s like in this process of counsel and discussion, we start to find the inconsistencies. And suddenly, okay, now uh we are starting to gain a process and now I’m finding yes There is a whole hidden side of this person that we didn’t know and it comes out through this process. because we’re we’re talking about things and and sharing it over and over again and that truth is coming more and more to light because we’re just exposing more light to it

Justin:

It gives new meaning to the be truth be sure the truth will find you out.

Mark:

Yes. I mean you know, and it’s not it’s not that I have that formula to be a but it it’s like I will say and you know, excuse the the expression, but you know You you can’t tell whether someone’s lying or not, but you give them enough rope as we say. You follow me? And eventually they they catch themselves up or hang themselves up because the rope gets so entangled around them. By giving the and then it’s like, okay, this is where we’re really at.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then that truth is evident. Because it’s like I got this whole tangle around me and I can’t get myself out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that and so I think for me that Yeah, you do uh I I hear what you were saying about music and it’s like it it is it still defines that process and I have to be willing to be open-minded to a degree It’s not that I’m so open-minded that my brains fall out like we, you know, but yet there’s this ability to say, okay, I can’t see it all So I’m gonna trust God in this process and I’m gonna be willing to change my mind in little bits along the way that help me find God’s truth. Does that make sense? Does that answer your question? Because I think it is it is part of a process. It’s not an instantaneous thing.

Justin:

It’s part of a process. I think that’s Y y so your first answer was spend time on God’s word, which I think you know me well enough to know that I agree with that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

S a hundred and ninety-two percent. My question would be to you.

Mark:

Sure, fire away.

Justin:

How many times were you wrong about what you read in the Bible?

Mark:

Sure. Yeah. And

Justin:

do you get where I’m going with that? Like, how do here’s where I’m going with that. I’ll just be I think that’s the foundation is God’s word.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

At the same time, I grew up in a church that believed what they were saying was directly from God. from his word and I look at it and go, I don’t think so. Right? But they believed it. And then I also there’s been times and this is what I was asking you, but there’s been times where I’ve held to a particular belief that I got from his word that over time the truth worked itself out in my life and gave me new understanding of that scripture to go. Oh.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Oh, it means that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So I guess, you know, your your first answer was, you know, how do you how do you how do you work at being you know being okay with changing your mind, being open minded? Answer number one one is spending time in God’s word, but how do you how do you comb how do you deal with that part? Like what what’s your answer to that? Like how do we Does that make sense? How does it the same answer, which is essentially it’s a process?

Mark:

It’s yeah, I think for me it’s still that process because even as you describe, you know, those things that I might have read in scripture that I operated by. Um I was I’m here again I’m coming back to, you know, my family and kids and that kind of thing, you know. And I may not have recognized how fast the young would pass by. And yet what I see in Scripture is still important. Did I get it right? You know, did I and and did I necessarily that’s not necessarily answering your question as far as when I believed scripture and I was wrong on its context. I didn’t understand the full context of it. And yet I’m also willing to recognize that part of that is developed through the process.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because

Justin:

I think I think that’s what I was trying to get. get at and the reason the here’s why I’m saying that I’m thinking about young twenty something me who thought I was right in everything. Right? Or maybe twenty something Mark who taught your kids a certain thing and as you grow older you recognize your the weight you put on a particular thing you taught them was maybe over was it was it Wasn’t the right proportion.

Mark:

Sure. It wasn’t it wasn’t heavy enough or it wasn’t sufficient enough. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Or I think about like um s some guys in uh a twenty something small group, I hear about how passionate they are about the truth and about what’s said in preaching and all these things and it’s so cool to hear that ’cause it’s like These are young guys at the same time I think there’s there’s also a problem with thinking how right we are and like this perception of again This is part this is where the process comes in. I think maturity you over time you realize how often you’re wrong when you when you’re convinced you’re right, and that teaches you some humility in that stuff. But is there something we can do right now practically as a twenty something to balance this with but also I could be wrong and even my you know what I mean? Is there is there other tools?

Mark:

I hear ya

Justin:

It was a leading question, but I’m curious what your thoughts are.

Mark:

And I and I think there are other tools that help in that process. I think, you know, we can add we can add talking with people who have a different viewpoint. That’s part of this what we desire to do is to be able to talk with people who who may not have the same Christian experience that we do. So to be able to talk with an atheist, just to be able to say, okay, what is that? How is their sense of purpose? Where is that? Is that different than mine And granted, it’s not that I uh uh necessarily ascribe, but even that viewpoint can help me develop. part of who I am. Well as you as you mentioned, you know, race or, you know, politics, you know, to be able to talk with someone of a, you know, of a different ethnicity and their viewpoint or to be able to even have that political discussion. And I think from my perspective, that’s that’s part of my passion for what we’re doing here. is this ability to have these heated discussions that we walk with that we can have and they’re passionate and they’re They’re based on our truth, but yet we walk away being able to accept one another for what you’re seeing as true. versus the judgmental dynamic that says, well, you disagree with me, you’re an idiot. And I think that’s kind of where you’re you know, we can we might develop that in our twenties, but we may just bring it right on with us into our fifties. You know, and that’s where I think this ability to have an open mind or the ability to change my mind helps in that process of gaining wisdom and understanding and God’s truth. is because, oh wow, I never saw it from that perspective before.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s the importance of being able to change my mind is, okay. Because I never saw it that way. Because I never understood the full context of what that scripture was talking about. You know, whether it’s, you know, uh Uh women not being in roles of leadership. That can be a, you know, very in difficult topic. Yeah, you know, and

Justin:

in the church.

Mark:

Well, in in my family. I have I have, you know, well my niece and my my sister-in-law are both pastors in a church. And I have a I have a you know 20-year-old daughter. who I desire to completely fulfill God’s purpose in whatever role she, you know, has. And it’s like, okay, so what do we do with that? And that’s That’s part of, you know, the process that I’m still wrestling with today. Is that for me? Is that to say that, you know, a person can’t? You know, that kind of thing. I think that’s that’s kind of where you were asking based on you know, using God’s word and do I believe something differently about a specific scripture than I might have believed years ago?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s good. I think the process is a is as good as an as the answer as any ’cause I do think it will work its out its way out over time and through the process if we’re Willing to listen, which kind of goes back to our past conversation about are we willing to perceive and listen, you know, to the Holy Spirit working in us and But yeah, I think just for me another tool that’s been extremely valuable to me is others input. And by others, I don’t just mean the guy down the street or my coworker or whatever I mean. quality others, right? So for me was a mentor and or sponsor. Someone who’s further down the road in terms of a specific area of my life that I want to grow in to where I can go, hey, what are your thoughts on this? Because this is what I’m thinking with this thing and I recognize I’ve been wrong. What are your thoughts? You know, and getting that feedback and Balance it. I mean, again, how far is too far we talked about that? If what they say goes against what I r I’m reading in God’s words and what I believe God’s word is saying is then I’m not gonna do that thing, right? I’m not gonna

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But generally if I’m looking up to this person as a sponsor or s mentor, whatever, they’re gonna help me t To see the word more clearly.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And help me to clarify those things. And I’d say go this just as far with accountability. Like someone who’s on the same quote unquote plane as me where iron sharpens iron and we can discuss these things and kind of go back this is what we’re doing, this is what we do, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

These conversations where we hone and sharpen. And my version of the truth is slightly sharpened, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Through that process. And so I think I also believe though that if you locked me in uh you know a tower for thirty years and all I had was God’s word, I’d do just fine. Right? ‘Cause I I b I don’t believe the Holy Spirit means anything but that. In fact without the Bible, right? Like but I also believe he put us in community for a reason. And we’re meant to have those relationships and have iron sharpening iron And um I think that’s for me part of you know, one of the tools. Spending time in God’s Word is the pr primary first foundational tool, but on top of that we have other tools we can add to it, which is um accountability and sure and mentors and even humility as a tool, right? Like say, this is what I think, but I could be wrong, you know?

Mark:

And I and I think it’s interesting too, because here again, the generational part comes to my mind, because I think, you know, well, I think about it from Well, two ways. I think about it from one generation judging another generation, and I think about the disciplines that are transgenerational. that have been handed down to me, you know, from those before me. And, you know, because that’s part of where my truth, my personal truth is is likely developed from that transgenerational handing down. And yet those there are probably some of those things that I need to challenge. And yet that becomes part of that process. And there was a Um I was thinking about it as initially as one judging the other. Oh, I was thinking about it even how um a millennial would view God’s word. as being a source of truth. And I’m not saying that in a judgmental sense. I’m recognizing there’s going to be a tremendous amount of diversity there. in how a millennial may view God’s word. It’s like we could in this moment saying that I’m recognizing that we could be completely disregarded by some individuals at that moment.

Justin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark:

Because, you know, it’s like, well, that’s antiquated , you know, but I And I and here again, I want to be heard in that process that says, okay, this is part of my experience. This is what I believe is true. And it’s offered me freedom, and it’s my desire to offer that to someone else and if you’re at a point where you know you’re hearing God’s word spending time with God is is off putting or you know it’s like I I would just encourage anyone to basically say okay trust that process give it a little bit of time and see what happens Because I do think there’s the like you were sharing about the tower, God in us can do far more than any other tool we might be able to develop apart from that. And I guess that’s that’s i it was just in that that snippet of of a moment of time when I’m saying, okay, as you and I in our experience are talking about where we come from That’s not gonna sound appealing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and yet, you know, and I realize it is people, you know, who have part of my past or even who I am that has made that distasteful. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In that process. So I have to own a part of that the of how I Listen when other people have a um perspective that’s different than mine And I’m able to listen in such a way that says, okay, that’s where they’re at. And is is is that uh when we use the word truth, you know, it’s like it can get slippery. But is that their current truth as far as they’re concerned? Yes.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Is it mine? No.

Justin:

Hmm. And I mean I yeah, it’s fascinating. You you basically hit the nail on the head in terms of what what the whole idea behind my truth your truth is is empathy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I think that is one of the higher values of the current generations is empathy. Like you do you understand me? ‘Cause I wanna understand you, you know. And that’s where the my truth, your truth thing comes in, it’s unfortunate that the truth got mixed into it because the truth is outside of any of that. The truth is outside of empathy, right? The truth is somewhere but it is and it’s like you said, it is it does get slippery, right? Because what you perceive Is truth. Like I understand there’s truth in what you perceive and there’s truth in what I perceive. And also Yeah, it’s so hard to describe. But yeah.

Mark:

But I think that’s that’s the ability that we have is to be able to say, Okay, this is my perspective. I like the word perspective so often. because it’s like this is where I’m at. And I think that’s what makes this topic the ability to change our minds if we can is to be able to bring other people, bring God’s word, bring uh uh time with him and through prayer or even you know journaling to be able to say okay help me see what i i don’t currently see

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Help me develop, you know, that process of truth in such a way that that draws me closer in relationship to God and other people.

Justin:

It’s good. Yeah, because my perspective. Yeah. Perspective is exactly that. It’s it’s temporal.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s limited to me. I understand w what it what it is. It’s my vantage point.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And whereas truth is so much more weighty. Yeah. Let’s let’s swap my truth for my person perspective.

Mark:

Because I and this is it was I can remember, you know, early back in my training, it it was it was just the buzzword was worldview. You follow me? That was, you know, that’s your worldview. That’s your lens to the your worldview. You follow me? And and I and I it’s it’s funny because that can kind of have that same connotation of open-mindedness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I also trust God in that process. To be able to say, okay, when I am seeking him and his truth, he will make it known to me. That’s the twisting.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That you referred to.

Justin:

The twisting.

Mark:

Yeah. Of being able to take what I think, what I see. And it’s like, nope, hold on. Let’s just reverse that 180 degrees and now tell me what you see. That’s that’s the process. So yeah.

Justin:

It’s nuanced. The truth is nuanced. More nuanced than we often are willing to accept.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah, and I think that’s where open-mindedness and narrow-mindedness tend to come into conflict when someone is not willing to hear me. I’m gonna see them as narrow-minded. And when someone’s grasping for everything and it’s all, you know it’s all my truth, you have your truth, you know, then yeah, it’s it’s that continuum dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Being able to say, okay, I need to change my mind. Or do I need to hold on and God will make that even evident to me. Closing thoughts?

Justin:

It’s a good way to wrap it up, Mark. Yeah, we might have to do another episode on more of this stuff Um but yeah. It’s a good topic and I think it is sort of integral to the whole idea of this podcast, I think. So I’m glad we had the conversation.

Mark:

Yes indeed. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.