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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

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Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

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[Music] conversations good morning good morning

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so what are we talking about today mark I think I think this is one of uh the topics that you can definitely

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appreciate changing your mind when you think of changing your mind what makes that topic important to

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you it makes me think that I changed my mind we should do a different

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episode just kidding for me uh changing my changing our minds is I mean very

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important because um you probably already heard it in terms of its value

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right from from things I've said in past episodes like how I grew up thinking one

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way or you know understanding something one way and you know I'm now 38 years old and I've changed my mind on a lot of

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things and for the most part those the changing in my mind has been very

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beneficial to my maturity to my growth to to becoming who it who it was

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supposed to be um so you see changing your mind the ability to change change

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your mind as part of a growth process for and if you if I might to the

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the ability to just hold on to something because I said so without investigation

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or without being able to do the hard work of challenging the

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thought growth doesn't occur is that kind of what you're saying yeah kind of

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I think I think changing our mind is a function of maturity

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sure and so I I think I think they kind of go hand in

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hand now obviously we we can mature in some ways without changing our mind if

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if here here's the Crux right sometimes we're wrong right and so if you're not wrong

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you don't need to change your mind sure and I think that that is an important distinction to make uh because I as

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we've talked about even in the F very first episode like we're about seeking truth whatever that that truth is right

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sure and I mean that's what this whole podcast is about is seeking truth

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getting trying to find the truth nuggets right sure and um the reason is it's not

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always immediately obvious right or intuitive or what we inherited from you

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know from our our parents and their parents in terms of kind of the understood truths right sure um and so I

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think changing our minds is important in so many ways I think it's important in maturity I also think I mean we just

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talked about the Holy Spirit in a previous episode and about how sometimes he tells us to change our mind right

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like sure you were thinking this you were planning this but really you need to do this and so being willing to

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change our minds I think is a function of maturity spiritually and otherwise um what are

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your thoughts well it's interesting as as I think about you know changing your mind I think there is that that process

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that can get caught up in a dynamic of change just for the sake of change MH

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which isn't necessarily always truth you follow me and I think that that's a

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that's an important distinction that I change my mind because I realized I I can be wrong and

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son of a gun surprise surprise I was I was wrong yeah and

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therefore what I believed wasn't true and I think for me and this is this is a

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personal Dynamic more so probably um I see how believing a

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lie can or or the finding the truth and

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the freedom of no longer believing a lie

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is is a is a process of changing my mind and how I think and and in in my in when

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I work with people it's it's the lies that we look to

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identify you follow me what what have I you know what experience what hurt habit

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or hang-up did I experience that has caused me to believe a

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lie and and and now I have developed these cycles and patterns based on that

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lie and there's a tremendous amount of work that goes into overcoming those

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cycles and patterns that I've believed as true and finding the truth of saying no

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I was wrong and I think that is kind of where for me what the heart of being able to

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change our mind because if I can change the way that I think about who God is or

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or what his designs or purposes are for me for sex for finance you know if I can

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change those things there's a tremendous amount of potential and purpose there

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that I'd never be able to fully recognize without the ability to change

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my mind and I think it is I think it is through discussions like this you know

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that we're able to have that conversation or even I would dare say especially even with God it's like okay

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God this is what I'm thinking help me see what you want me to see and I think we can do that with other trusted

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individuals as well and what we're doing when we engage that process is we are

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effectively looking to to change our mind yeah or being open

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to I as you were talking it it kind of just occurred to me like pretty much the

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whole purpose of a counselor is to help you change your

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mind right in one way or another I yeah I see where you're coming from it's not that the yeah it's not that we always go

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in wanting to change our mind but we've recognized that we're here for a reason

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yeah and really that's kind what has brought me here mhm and it's like it is

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that point of saying okay I have this thing in my life that causes me issues

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so I need to talk with someone else in such a way that helps me

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recognize that something something isn't the way I want it to

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be yeah and it takes another individual yeah I'm hearing what you're saying I and I think it's interesting we just did

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the podcast on Holy Spirit you know yeah and counselor and that that aspect of

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how yeah it just it just makes the fact that we don't necessarily always have to have

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another person involved in that but another person is also beneficial mhm

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well I I am immediately think of my wife okay how so well you know when we talk

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about changing our minds and how often in marriage like

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that's that's a sticking point is like like a man who doesn't want to ask for directions and they're they're lost and

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yet nope I'm going to figure it out I know West is this way and you know this whole idea of like We're In Too Deep now

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to change our minds or whatever and I feel like that happens a lot in you know long-term relationships like marriage

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like parenting or whatever it's like I've been down this road so long that I

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can't turn around this is this is where we'll be now and I can't change my mind

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I can't course correct we're going to make the most of where we are so that being said would

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you say pride is often the greatest obstacle to changing your

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mind I'm not saying the greatest but one of the obstacles I just as you

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absolutely but I I feel like there's so many things that can prevent us from Fear I mean this is goes back to what we

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were talking about earlier but like fear control like I want to control what

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happens and I know if I don't change my mind right if I stick with this thing thing I know what I get okay you know

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yeah so desire control familiar you know I mean it's yeah and that's where the cycles and patterns come in I'd rather

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have the familiar cycle and pattern at times right because it's comforting it's comfortable sure comfortable yeah or com

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yeah but like you say it's that comfort that keeps me from really often times

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exposing myself to a different thought yeah and

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it's easier right sure it's easier to establish what I think I know and just

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stay there yeah and um I mean we all do it in some

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sense we're not always we all do what in some sense

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change our mind or hold on settle on a thing that we believe is true it doesn't matter how open-minded or whatever

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whatever values you spouse at some point you have to believe something right sure

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and and that's a good thing like we should I mean this kind so one of the things we have talked about before is

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being open-minded right yeah I mean just saying that word yes open minded be open

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minded yes I mean really yes you just did Justin did just did the what is it

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Crooks fingers crossed yeah yeah yeah it's like Yeah The Crucible type thing it's like there I think in a lot of

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cases depending on when you grew up yeah I think there's a yeah that's good yeah

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open-mindedness depending on the truth it's my truth yes depending on the tone

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that I use with open the word open-mindedness there's going to be a there's going to be a a a thought that

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comes to mind even like you're saying kind of almost that that hexit get away from me I don't want that

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yeah yeah speak to that for you well I love that you brought up the generational thing that it didn't really

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occur to me but yeah it's it's so interesting how generationally values

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shift and I would argue that being open-minded is one of the highest values

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of at least Millennials probably the Next Generation as well and that's where you know I jokingly said it's my truth I

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mean that is that was a joke it was a joke it is my truth but uh yeah no I

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mean but that's that's I think think that's an example of something Our Generation or your generation is afraid

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of right it's this idea of Relativity and everyone's got their own version of Truth and there's no absolute truth and

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that I think that's the fear of open-mindedness is it's all relative

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there's not actual truth it's just shifting perspective of Truth and so one

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day I might believe this is true and the next day I might you know believe the opposite and it's all relative depending

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on what my circumstan are my influences around me and um I mean for me this this

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whole idea behind this episode is not about changing our minds to fit the narrative or to change our perspective

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or uh adapt my truth to include your truth or whatever it's about truth sure

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it's about I want the truth I want to seek the truth I want to find the truth and when I'm

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not believing the truth I want to change my mind sure you know and so I

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think and and again the whole idea of being openminded is such a scary concept

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uh because it means it's often associated with this idea of losing your values or or your

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your values being loosely held right yeah almost almost a a loss

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of character yes yep yep and I think oh

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yeah and it's ironic too like just

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generationally like a baby boomer would hear that and think that exactly what you just said like hear open-mindedness

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and think yeah you're willing to give up your character yes where uh a millennial

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or someone younger than that right would look at that Boomer and say okay Boomer

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yeah and they say I hear what you're saying you're a bigot you're unwilling to uh you know change

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you're yeah change phobe yes it's a good way to put it and I think both sides of

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those perspectives they're based in truth right like they both sides of that

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perspective have seen the result of that person of people being that way whether

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it's open-minded or stuck in you know stuck is the negative word but like

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holding to what they believe to be true right holding fast holding fast out of fear yeah again that's negative I'm

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trying to say there's value in both directions but the other side is seeing

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the negative right sure and that's why I'm to where a millennial would see a

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boomer as holding and fearful and they're not embracing and even pompous

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and arrogant like sure they're sitting on their pile of Truth and saying we

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have the Monopoly on it you know they're looking at it going no that's

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actually a pile of poop you should probably get off of it yeah and vice versa like I think as a

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boomer you look at the generation as it is today and there isn't an instilling

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of character through things like growing up on a farm and having to get up at 2:30 in the morning and go milk the cows

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and like there's a lack of of instilling of deep value based character m right

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and so we look at them and go you have you're not standing on anything you're standing on sand that's shifting every

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day and you're you're happy with that yeah right does that make sense yeah and

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and what we're doing in a lot of cases is just

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recognizing it's my view of someone else that tends to keep me from changing my

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mind when I become judgmental mhm and I guess what it comes back to is this

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ability for me I'm thinking about it from this aspect of okay how do I

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decide what is true yeah because you know we can look at another you know the

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character the lack of character the ability to think outside the box as

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being valuable you know not as shifting Sands just with every storm type thing but yet

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being able to weather the storm in such a way that says okay you know this is

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this is a this is a better way to think about this and how how do you define

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what is true I mean I'm willing to go there myself but you know for you personally how do you decide I guess

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what is what is too far in and on that Continuum or is there a too

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far where you're concerned that is a good question uh yeah there's

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a too far I think you know I believe in the the authority of God's word the

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Bible and so if something says do this and it's the opposite of what the the word says then I'm that's too far I hear

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you and so there's certainly and that word is full right but it

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doesn't cover everything right sure uh but it but it is a great Foundation to

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build on top of and so if I find pieces of my beliefs coming starting to be built off

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of that Foundation kind of in the area around the foundation right then those are things number one I need to be

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careful about and number two should be able to be shifted sure right um one of

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the examples I think about that comes to mind is again growing up in a very

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conservative Church there was this idea that certain music was wrong I got you

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some music is evil some music's just wrong and some some music is actually god-honoring and for some reason God

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chose southern gospel as his chosen you as his chosen musical style and that was

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God honoring and uh or hymns you know sure of course hyms who would argue that

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H are wrong who deny him the people in culture at the time they were being written thought they were the wrong way

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to worship because they weren't uh pip organs in a cathedral or whatever so many of the hyms came out of bars in the

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yes they CED the music from there and added new lyrics and added new lyrics

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sure absolutely and and then like growing up like anything that was secular with just straight up evil

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anything that was Christian but had too much drums or guitar was just wrong you

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know okay and that's an example to me of like there's nothing in the Bible that talks about music style there's nothing

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mhm and and yet we built this kind of structure off to the side of how what

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music should or shouldn't look like you know and so I've been adapted my mindset on that so many times in in my life and

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changed my mind right and uh i' I've gone so far like all the way to the

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direction where I used to listen to a lot of Eminem okay and he is crass he's he's terrible right he talks about the

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worst things on this planet in the worst possible way you can talk about it and I

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was just like it didn't bother me and then after a period of time I

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recognize number one it doesn't bother me and also number two it's starting to bother me do that make sense yes it

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makes perfect sense yeah it should um but ironically I also remember

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in that same time listening to one of his songs and almost tearing up because

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I was hearing the Brokenness sure of what he came from and it was like

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vulnerability yes and it was like empathy was pouring in and I was like

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there are people who are growing up just like he did in these exact situations

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and they're thinking these same thoughts how they want to murder their mom or whatever it is like this is

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real and I don't want to hear it because it doesn't fit my pure Christian ears

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you know but at the same time sometimes I need to be reminded of that that there's a whole culture that's drawn to

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that because that's a person who's saying who they are does that make sense

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there that that person is expressing a feeling that I've felt in some way but I

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just haven't been willing to admit it necessarily right potentially yeah yeah

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and it it's it's interesting when you mentioned the word music would you say that music or is the

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lyrics you know I I'm thinking about is it is m is there any kind of music that

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is evil or do we associate that drum beat you know and yet it's when we tie

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the lyrics to it that we actually and I and I because I think you

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know when I think of music I think music can be God ordained period you know the

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ability to play something I think it's it's even cathartic for individuals to

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just be able to play you know an instrument and and open their mind up in

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some ways to God and His creation and the ability to give me this talent and

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there's a there's a flow there I don't want to get too far off on that but I I think you know it is it is part of that

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open-mindedness to see that you know okay is it the words or is it the music

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or is it the sound that that I associate with being

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evil I think of it from like a a TV show we always know when the bad part's going

21:35
to happen and nobody's even playing any nobody's even has any lyrics to it but because the

21:42
music itself changes we say and there's this bad part coming

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yeah and I and I guess I I'm I'm still connecting that don't mean to get off a rabbit Trail but I'm I love this Rabbit

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Trail okay I'm I'm thinking about it from that aspect of how many

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times like you mentioned in marriage is is that difference wrong or is it just

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difference yeah it's good and I think how we think about it being wrong or how

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we think about it being different is a part of that ability to have an open mind where my spouse is concerned or

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that race or that political party sure that's yeah that's deep right yeah is it

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wrong or is it different yeah and and is it still part of the wholeness that is

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true where God is concerned MH so I'm going to tie the music thing

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back in with this topic which is uh

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so I've been involved in celebrate recovery for a long time and as a result

22:56
I've I've heard hundred of testimonies right sure and a testimony is someone just sharing their story of how God

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worked in their life to change them from who they were to who they are now which is still a work in progress but you know

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usually that story encompasses some pretty incredible journey type stuff and

23:15
sometimes Miracles you know sometimes whatever but one of the things that I

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have learned in the course of these many years hearing these stories including my own right my own story includes some of

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the is the concept and importance of

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redemption and how we tend to write off

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certain things people musical styles whatever you name it right and

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say that can't be used for good sure and yet there's a testimony out there of

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someone who said that was used for good in my life sure that is a key part of

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why I'm here today changed you know and being transformed right and you can

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apply that to a lot of things I'm not going to say everything I I'm not God but I can say that is my favorite pro

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you know I'll just say it's my f it's one of my favorites there's lots of favorite aspects about God is the fact that he can take something so wrong so

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evil so gross so whatever and he can twist it keep twisting it to where all of a sudden it's bringing him glory and

24:30
you look at you go what what how right and that's how what I believe about my own story and how he's used the stuff in

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my past to twist it into something that brings him glory to now when I meet with young men who are working through their

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own struggles whatever I'm able to see him this is him using that garbage to

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bring him glory and again I see that I think that's true of

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music I I don't think there's a music style I don't think there's a lyric he

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cannot twist to bring him glory I don't believe it's possible I believe that's

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how big and Sovereign our God is that he's not afraid or or unable to overcome

25:15
any evil in our planet sure and transform it to bring him glory to bring someone closer to him now that doesn't

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mean there's a difference between what I believe he can use and what I believe is uh what he can use as part of a

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Redemption Story versus what is beneficial for me beneficial yeah in the

25:35
moment like like as as you explained kind of with your Eminem type process y

25:40
yeah yeah and I again there's been yeah just that that moment always comes to

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mind when I was listening to that Eminem song and I was just so filled with empathy and like brokenheartedness

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towards the Detroit youths you know what I mean like like his uper and the people

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that they're different they grow up in a different atmosphere than I did and I don't know outside of that song If I

26:06
would ever care about that particular group of people you know what I mean

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sure and there was a connection there right and so just understanding that

26:16
like I want to strive for things that are beneficial but

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sometimes God can still use those alleys we stumbled into because we took the wrong term because we refuse to use the

26:28
G PS cuz we didn't change our mind right like that's what Redemption is is taking what's wrong and making it right sure

26:35
you know and so I think we can do the same thing we can redeem stuff in our

26:40
own lives when we're wrong when we're showing we wrong to twist it right to teach us to help us

26:48
change our mind and that can go for in our marriage that can go in you know as parents or whatever and when what I'm

26:55
doing isn't working I can keep doing it which is what we call Insanity doing the

27:00
same thing over and over again expecting a different result or I can look at this

27:05
and go wait we can redeem this right we can take this thing that's broken and use it to to get me on the path towards

27:12
what's not broken but that a a long- winded thing what are your thoughts on

27:18
them I think in in some ways it is coming back

27:23
to for me how that truth dynamic

27:29
um can be part of a process but like you shared I think we

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we typically need to bring that back to saying okay does this align with what

27:42
god with who God is or What God Says MH yeah versus just a a questing if you

27:50
will yeah for knowledge so let me ask you this fire

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away how do you figure that out how do you mark figure that out and what are some you know tools that you could

28:02
suggest for figuring that out I think for me um some of it is going to depend on

28:13
how how not important important isn't the right word

28:21
but how crucial that truth is to me you

28:27
follow me because is it is it is it 7 or 8:00 you

28:33
know that kind of thing it's not going to make a whole lot of difference but in

28:38
the morning or the evening yeah well exactly you know to the to is it is it

28:44
you know because that it may that may be important but is it foundational like

28:52
how I how I view my children or what I

28:57
want the character that I may want to instill you know

29:04
and for me personally I can I can recognize that it's about me spending

29:11
time with God and God's word and I was thinking about this the other day because for me personally as a parent I

29:18
recognized that that is probably that has

29:23
become an area that I'm not sure that I always communicated well to my kids the

29:32
importance of God's word to be able to Define truth I may have even said you know at

29:39
times that all truth is God's truth but not always pointed in that direction of scripture

29:46
go you follow me and and yet I realize probably in some ways I might have

29:53
modeled it but I didn't necessarily teach it MH

29:58
and I've wrestled with that and it it is a desire to do it

30:05
differently to change my mind and say okay I can't do anything about what was

30:11
then but now it's a matter of okay now I have this new awareness because I am

30:18
mindful of what I am teaching and what I am modeling because it matters and

30:25
that's that's that's different so in that process I am open to the ability to

30:31
change my mind I'm open to what God wants to show me and even if it's hurtful even if it's um to the point

30:42
of being able to say okay you didn't you're not perfect and you being an

30:49
imperfect father also is just part of the process that I don't want your

30:55
children to always turn to you I want them to learn to turn to me and in that

31:02
process they actually find God's truth which is even greater than what I might instill in them and that's that's how I

31:09
would answer that question is it it's it's a desire to grow with God in his

31:15
truth because I do believe all truth is God's truth what is true in Psychology

31:21
is is still God's truth what is true in mathematics or science is still God's

31:28
truth and I think that's where we need to come back and I think it's for me it

31:34
becomes a process in patience because I think sometimes we we

31:40
want the truth right now we want to fix right now and and even this is this is

31:47
what I you know it kind of blows my mind sometimes speaking of that openm mindness and

31:52
Truth people will come to my office at times and it's it's like they think I

31:58
have a formula to decipher who is telling the truth and who is telling a

32:03
lie you don't have that you know and it's like and it's it

32:09
and I'm still amazed mesmerized at times that you know people think that's there

32:15
and granted some of that can come out of you know a process and just looking but

32:22
so often that truth is developed and I've

32:27
had you know and it is just kind of I work with a couple and you know and

32:34
there's this this thought that you know they're doing something you know it could be terrible something it could be

32:40
a lie but it's like in this process of councel and discussion we

32:47
start to find the inconsistencies and suddenly okay now

32:52
are we are starting to gain a process and now I'm finding yes there is is a

32:58
whole Hidden Side of this person that we didn't know and it comes out through

33:04
this process because we're we're talking about things and and sharing it over and

33:10
over again and that truth is coming more and more to light because we're just

33:17
exposing more light to it it gives new meaning to the be truth be sure the truth will find you out yes I mean you

33:24
know and it's not it's not that I have that formula to be a but it it's like I will say in you know excuse the the

33:30
expression but you know you you can't tell whether someone's lying or not but you give them enough rope as we say you

33:38
follow me and eventually they they catch themselves up or hang themselves up

33:43
because the Rope gets so entangled around them yeah by giving them and then it's like okay this is where we're

33:50
really at yeah and then that truth is evident because it's like I got this

33:56
whole tangle around me and I can't get myself out yeah and that and so I think

34:02
for me that you I I hear what you were saying about music and it's like it it

34:09
is it still defines that process and I have to be willing to be open-minded to

34:15
a degree it's not that I'm so open-minded that my brains fall out like we you know but yet there's this ability

34:23
to say okay I can't see it all so I'm going to trust God in this process and

34:29
I'm going to be willing to change my mind in Little Bits along the way that help me find God's

34:36
truth does that make sense that answer your question because I think it is it is part of a process it's not a it's not

34:43
a instantaneous thing part of a process I think that's so your first answer was spend

34:49
time in God's word which I think you know me well enough to know that I agree with that sure

34:56
192% my question would be to you sure far away how many times were you wrong

35:03
about what you read in the Bible sure yeah do you get where I'm going with

35:09
that like how do here's where I'm going with that I'll just be I think that's the foundation is

35:19
God's word sure at the same time I grew up in a church that believed what they

35:25
were saying was directly from his word and I look at it and go I don't think so

35:30
right but they believed it and then I also there's been times and this is what I was asking you but there's been times where I held to a particular belief that

35:37
I got from his word that over time the truth worked itself out in my life and

35:43
gave me new understanding of that scripture to go oh yeah oh it means that

35:50
sure so I guess you know your your first answer was you know how do you how do

35:55
you how do you work at being you know being okay with changing your mind being

36:01
open-minded answer number one is spending time in God's word but how do you how do you comp how do you deal with

36:07
that part like what what's your answer to that like how do we does that make sense how do or is it the same answer

36:14
which is essentially it's a process it's yeah I think for me it's still that process because even as you describe you

36:21
know those things that I might have read in Scripture that that I operated

36:29
by um I was I'm here again I'm coming back to you know my family and kids and

36:36
that kind of thing you know you know teach these things to your children

36:42
while they're young yeah and I may not have recognized how fast

36:49
the young would pass by and

36:55
yet what I see in scripture is still important did I

37:00
get it right you know did I and and did I necessarily that's not necessarily

37:05
answering your question as far as when I believed scripture and I was wrong on

37:11
its context I didn't understand the full context of it and yet I'm also willing

37:17
to recognize that part of that is developed through the process yeah because I think I think

37:26
that's what I was trying to get at and the reason here's why I'm saying that I'm thinking about young 20-some me who

37:32
thought I was right in everything right or maybe 207 Mark who taught your kids a

37:38
certain thing and as you grow older you recognize your the weight you put on a particular

37:45
thing you taught them was maybe over was it wasn't wasn't the right proportion sure

37:52
it wasn't it wasn't heavy enough or it wasn't sufficient enough exactly yeah yeah or I think about like um some guys

37:59
in uh a 20-some small group I hear about how passionate they are about the truth

38:05
and about what's said in preaching and all these things and it's so cool to hear that because it's like these are

38:11
young guys at the same time I think there's there's also a problem

38:18
with thinking how right we are in like this perception of again this is part

38:24
this is where the process comes in I think maturity you over time you realize how often

38:29
you're wrong when you when you're convinced you're right and that teaches you some humility and that stuff but is

38:35
there something we can do right now practically as a 20-some to balance this

38:40
with but also I could be wrong and even my you know what I mean is there is there other tools I hear you it's a

38:49
leading question but I'm curious what your thoughts are and I think there are other tools that help in that process I

38:56
think you know we can add we can add talking with people who have a different

39:02
Viewpoint that's part of this what we desire to do is to be able to talk with

39:09
people who who may not have the same

39:14
Christian experience that we do so to be able to talk with an atheist just to be

39:20
able to say okay what is that how is their sense of purpose where is that is

39:25
that different than mine and granted it's not that I necessarily ascribe but

39:32
even that Viewpoint can help me develop part of who I am well as you as you

39:37
mentioned you know race or you know politics you know to be able to talk

39:43
with someone of a you know of a different ethnicity and their Viewpoint or be able to even have that political

39:50
discussion and I think from my perspective that's that's part of my

39:55
passion for what we're doing here is this ability to have these heated

40:01
discussions that we walk that we can have and they're passionate and they're

40:08
they're based on our truth but yet we walk away being able to accept one

40:15
another for what you're seeing as true versus the judgmental Dynamic that says

40:21
well you disagree with me you're an idiot and I think that's kind of where you you know we can

40:27
we might develop that in our 20s but we may just bring it right on with us into our 50s you know and that's where I think

40:35
this ability to have a open mind or the ability to change my mind helps in that

40:40
process of gaining wisdom and understanding and God's truth is because

40:45
oh wow I never saw it from that perspective before yeah and I think that's the importance

40:52
of being able to change my mind is okay because I never saw it that way because

40:57
I never understood the full context of what that scripture was talking about you know whether it's you know uh women

41:05
not being in roles of leadership that can be a you know very difficult topic

41:12
you know and in the church well in in my family I have I have you know well my

41:18
niece and my my sister-in-law are both Pastors in a church and I have a I have

41:25
a you know 20-year-old daughter who I desire to completely fulfill God's

41:30
purpose in whatever role she you know has and it's like okay so what do we do

41:36
with that and that's that's part of you know the process that I'm still wrestling with today is that for me is

41:42
that to say that you know a person can't you know that kind of thing I think that's that's kind of where you were

41:48
asking based on you know using God's word and do I believe something

41:54
differently about a specific scripture then I might might have believed years ago

41:59
mhm yeah yeah it's good I think the

42:05
process is a is as good as as answer as any because I do think it will work its

42:10
out its way out over time and through the process if we're willing to listen which kind of goes back to our past

42:16
conversation about are we willing to perceive and listen you know to the Holy Spirit working in us and but yeah I

42:24
think just for me another tool that's been extremely valuable to me is others input and by others I don't just mean

42:31
the guy down the street or my coworker whatever I mean quality others right so for me was a mentor and or sponsor

42:38
someone who's further down the road in terms of a specific area of my life that

42:43
I want to grow in sure to where I can go hey what are your thoughts on this because this is what I'm thinking with

42:49
this thing and I recognize I've been wrong what are your thoughts you know and getting that feedback and um balance

42:58
I mean again how far is too far we talked about that if it if what they say goes against what I am reading in God's

43:05
words and what I believe God's word is saying is then I'm not going to do that thing right I'm not going to sure but

43:12
generally if I'm looking up to this person as a sponsor or Mentor whatever they're going to help me to see the word

43:18
more clearly sure and help me to clarify those things and I'd say go this just as

43:23
far with accountability like someone who's on the same quote unquote plain is me where iron sharpens iron and we can

43:30
discuss these things and kind of go back this is what we're doing this is what we do right sure these conversations where

43:37
we hone and sharpen and my version of the truth is slightly sharpened right

43:43
sure through that process and so I think I also believe though that if you

43:51
locked me in you know a tower for 30 years and all I had was God's word I'd

43:56
do just fine M right because I I I don't believe the Holy Spirit needs anything

44:01
but that in fact he could do it without the Bible right like but I also believe

44:07
he put us in community for a reason we meant to have those relationships and

44:13
have iron sharpening iron and um I think that's for me part of you know one of

44:19
the tools spending time in God's word is the primary first foundational tool but on top of that we have other tools we

44:25
can add to it which is um accountability and and mentors and

44:31
even humility is a tool right like say this is what I think but I could be wrong you know and I and I think it's

44:37
interesting too because here again the generational part comes to my mind because I think you know well I think

44:43
about it from well two ways I think about it from one generation judging

44:49
another generation and I think about the disciplines that are transgenerational

44:54
that have been handed down to me you know from those before me and you know

44:59
because that's part of where my truth my personal truth is is likely developed from that transgenerational handing

45:07
down and yet those there are probably some of those things that I need to

45:13
challenge and yet that becomes part of that process and there was um I was thinking about it as

45:20
initially as one judging the other oh I was thinking about it even

45:25
how um a millennial would view God's

45:32
word as being a source of Truth and I and I'm not saying that in a judgmental

45:38
sense I'm I'm recognizing there's going to be a tremendous amount of diversity there in how a millennial May view God's

45:46
word it's like we in this moment saying that I'm recognizing that we could be

45:53
completely disregarded by some individuals at that moment yeah absolutely because you know it's

45:59
like well that's Antiquated you know but I and I and here

46:06
again I want to be heard in that process that says okay this is part of my

46:11
experience this is what I believe is true and it's offered me freedom and it's my desire to offer that to someone

46:19
else and if you're at a point where you know you're hearing God's word spending

46:26
time time with God is is off-putting or you know it's like I I would just

46:33
encourage anyone to basically say okay trust that process give it a little bit

46:40
of time and see what happens because I I do think there's the like you were sharing about the

46:47
tower God in us can do far more than any other tool we might be able to develop

46:56
apart from that and I guess that's that's it was just in that that snippet

47:01
of of a moment of time when I'm saying okay as you and I in our experience are

47:06
talking about where we come from that's not going to sound appealing

47:12
yeah and and yet you know and I realize it is people you know who have part of

47:20
my past or even who I am that has made that

47:25
distasteful you follow me in that process so I have to own a part of that

47:31
the of how I listen when other people have a um

47:40
perspective that's different than mine and I'm able to listen in such a way

47:46
that says okay that's where they're at and is is is that when we use the

47:55
word truth you know it's like it can get slippery but is that their current truth

48:00
as far as they're concerned yesh is it mine

48:07
no and I mean that's fascinating you you

48:13
basically hit the nail on the head in terms of what what the whole idea behind my truth your truth is is empathy yeah I

48:22
think that is one of the higher values of the current Generations is empathy

48:28
like you do you understand me cuz I want to understand you you know and that's

48:35
where the my truth Your Truth thing comes in it's unfortunate that the truth got

48:40
mixed into it because the truth is outside of any of that the truth is outside of empathy right the truth is

48:47
somewhere but at this it's like you said it is it does get slippery right because what you

48:54
perceive is truth like I understand there's truth in what

48:59
you perceive and there's truth in what I perceive and also it's so hard to describe but yeah

49:07
but I think that's that's the ability that we have is to be able to say okay

49:13
this is my perspective I like the word perspective so often because it's like

49:18
this is where I'm at and I think that's what makes this topic the ability to change our minds if we can is to be able

49:26
to bring other people bring God's word bring time with him and through prayer

49:34
or even you know journaling to be able to say okay help me see what I I don't

49:42
currently see yeah help me develop you know that process of Truth in such a way

49:51
that that draws me closer in relationship to God and other people

49:58
it's good yeah because my perspective yeah perspective is exactly that it's

50:06
it's temporal sure it's limited to me I understand what what it is it's my

50:12
vantage point sure and whereas truth is so much more weighty right yeah let's

50:18
let's swap My Truth for my perspective because and this is it I can

50:24
remember you know early back in my training it it was it was just the buzzword was world

50:30
view you follow me that was you know that's your world view that's your lens

50:37
to the your world view you follow me and and I and I it's it's funny because that

50:42
can kind of have that same connotation of open-mindedness yeah but I also trust

50:47
God in that process to be able to say okay when I am seeking him and his truth

50:55
he will make it known to me yeah that's

51:00
the twisting yeah that you referred to the twisting yeah of being able to take

51:06
what I think what I see and it's like NOP hold on let's just reverse that 180

51:12
degrees and now tell me what you see that's that's the process so yeah

51:20
it's nuanced the truth is nuanced more nuanced than we often are willing to

51:26
accept sure yeah and I think that's where open-mindedness and

51:32
narrow-mindedness tend to come into conflict MH when someone is not willing to hear me I'm going to see them as

51:43
narrow-minded and when someone's grasping for everything and it's all you

51:50
know it's all my truth you have your truth you know then yeah it's it's that

51:55
Continuum Dynam being able to say okay I need to change my mind or do I need to hold on and God

52:04
will make that even evident to Me closing thoughts it's a good way to

52:09
wrap it up Mark yeah we might have to do another episode on more of this stuff U but yeah

52:17
it's a good topic and I think it is sort of integral to the whole idea of this

52:22
podcast I think so I'm glad we had the conversation yes indeed this is how we

52:28
see it this how we see [Music]

52:33
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