0:00
[Music] how are you my friend I am well I'm glad

0:07
to hear it very well I'm happy to feel it getting a little warmer say see it

0:13
getting warmer you know yeah I that's a that's a good clarification yeah yeah

0:18
well done yeah cuz it dipped it dipped a little cool for me to be in Spring yeah

0:24
yeah those days in Minnesota Minnesota yeah they're OTA well for me it was the cold is one

0:32
thing but the fact that the plants all started to kind of Bud and Bloom and

0:39
little tiny leaves that look like they wouldn't hurt a fly you know like just little guys that and they like brace

0:46
yourselves yeah it's going to get cold yeah but I don't think it got below freezing which just I didn't notice it

0:53
did not like a couple weekends ago when I got 27 or so yeah

0:58
[Music]

1:04
welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

1:11
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:17
[Music] conversations you know so your plans are

1:23
okay they are okay so all is well yes mow the lawn for the first time first

1:28
time this year this weekend wow weekend yeah little lightning storm starting to

1:34
green things up yeah exactly yeah how was your weekend it was good it was busy

1:41
but good what did you do Sunday what did I do Sunday Sunday afternoon around you

1:46
know I had a wonderful afternoon on Sunday with uh you folks and my wife

1:52
recording a podcast that's right that was fun that was fun was our first guest

1:58
podcast yes and uh we thought it was fitting right to yeah to have our wives

2:04
on just have that Glimpse yeah and it was good it was good

2:09
yeah yeah it'll be interesting to try and edit it because uh it'll be my first time trying to combine two feeds of

2:17
audio into one yeah and uh you know I'm no a pro at this thing this is as you've

2:23
seen as drop a few Clips like this is all a learning curve but yeah it'll be interesting our audience will not be

2:30
surprised that we went over a 60 Minute time frame probably you know so that's

2:35
that's the need for the editing is we just went over our uh typical time our allotted time and

2:43
kicked us off and we had to restart again that's right so it turns out

2:49
there's a 30 minute time limit if you record from the website yep anchor website and there's an hour time time

2:55
limit if you record from the anchor app so now we know both of those things it's really really good exactly it's good to

3:02
know it is good to know unfortunately we found out the hard way both times that's what we like to do mark this is how we

3:09
do it this is how we see it yeah this is how we talk it yeah too long sometimes

3:15
too it's actually it' be interesting to hear uh if anyone's out there tap

3:21
tap uh you know what they think about in terms of longer episodes once in a while

3:27
like guess because I have a hunch that guess episodes will be longer well at

3:32
least the the recorded bit will be longer um partly because um I think it will be difficult

3:39
to re you know re a conversation between three people or four people or whatever

3:44
into into that 40 minute slot but also I don't necessarily I wouldn't necessarily want to do that because there might be

3:51
some good stuff that yeah squeaks out at the end or in the beginning or whatever once you find your Rhythm stuff yeah I

3:58
think that was kind of what I no on Sunday you know as the ladies were in here with us you know it's it's foreign

4:05
yeah and then you know it doesn't take long and you find a rhythm you know and

4:10
everybody starts kind of opening up in their you know Express in their in their verbalization as well as their you know

4:17
body posture you know it's like yeah it was interesting to observe it felt like when we

4:23
started yeah like uh like we were you know forcing him to do oh yeah there

4:30
kind of this like what are you making me do yes we're here because we love you and

4:36
that's the only reason exactly which we appreciate oh yes very

4:42
much so but I do feel like by the end it like uh we probably need to stop sometime soon ladies like no yeah no it

4:50
was good they were they they were willing to chat and yeah it was great to have them so it was and it was fun uh as

4:59
we as we talked about future episodes and you know just kind of that that

5:04
Vision type Dynamic that was fun to be able to do and have their uh have their

5:09
input and yeah so it's interesting because even as we talked about the possibility of this week there was

5:15
definitely some Intrigue you wanna you w to introduce uh Mr Chesterton Chesterton

5:23
Chesterton uh as as in GK Chesterton right yes um

5:30
so yeah that you know he was an author um do you know how much do you know about him very little I read the you

5:37
know yeah I've read some stuff some stuff yes yeah and I I'll yeah I'll let

5:43
you go ahead I mean there's a lot of correlation with my

5:49
profession based on his thoughts but like I say I can come to those later on that's great yeah

5:56
so he yeah I mean he wrote a ton of stuff but one thing that he wrote was

6:02
just some quote about offense and so someone wrote this article talking about

6:07
chesterton's fence and um I'll just if you don't mind I'll read this little

6:13
quote by him in this article um G GK Chesterton says there exists in such a

6:21
case a certain institution or law let us say for the sake of Simplicity a fence

6:27
or gate erected across a road the more modern type of reformer goes gay up to

6:33
it and says I don't see the use of this let us clear it away to which the more intelligent type of reformer will do

6:39
well to answer if you don't see the use of it it certainly won't let you clear it away go away and think then when you

6:48
uh then when you can come back and tell me what tell me that you do oh my goodness then when you count come back

6:56
and tell me that you do see the use of it I may allow you to destroy destroy it that's a funky language there

7:03
yeah what's your take on that Mark your first thought well I have I have a good

7:09
VI I um I was taken by the fact of his

7:15
ability to use the fense to represent what he uh shared about an institution

7:22
or law so and I and I think in our um enlightened or

7:32
evolved perspective sometimes we can think those things that came before us

7:39
are Antiquated outdated there's no need for them so our tendency at times to

7:46
just do away with it because of that elevated I'll call it arrogant even at

7:52
times thinking that wants to do away with things just for the sake of of

8:00
avoiding restraint yeah that's that's

8:05
that's yeah in a nutshell yeah what it said and I think you know um they and I

8:12
I'll I'll even bring it back because he if I'm not trying to steal it from you but you know he he does a nice job of

8:19
this you know first order thinking and second order thinking and I you know for me as a therapist that's soad pause

8:27
right there as a therapist um the article that we're referencing is on a Blog called farum Street blog where they

8:33
talk a lot about mental models and various things and this particular uh

8:39
article you know it's called it's chesterton's fence a lesson in second order thinking and so the article is

8:46
talking about this idea of second order thinking yeah U versus GK Chesterton

8:51
didn't write all this stuff it's mostly about his one little paragraph and they expounded this article I just I I wanted

8:58
to clear that up real quick but as you talk about no and and and go ahead as you see I'm I'm going to flip it back to

9:04
you even as it well don't forget that as a therapist I I I I have that no problem we're good there um even in that um how

9:12
do you see what what difference do you see as you read the article on the difference between first order thinking

9:18
and second order thinking and it's okay if you need a moment to kind of scroll

9:23
but I mean am I putting you on the spot too

9:28
much there yeah I'm actually looking I wanted to see the exact thing they had here um and if you don't mind go second

9:36
order thinking is the practice of not just considering the consequences of our decisions but also the consequences of

9:42
those consequences everyone can manage first order thinking which is just considering the immediate anticipated

9:48
result of an action and let's be honest Mark not not everyone does that even right like but true it's simple and

9:55
quick usually requiring little effort by comparison second order thinking is more complex and timec consuming the fact

10:02
that it is difficult and unusual is what makes the ability to do it um such a powerful Advantage um yeah he said

10:10
second order thinking will get you extraordinary extraordinary results there you go and so we learning to

10:17
recognize when other people are using that second order thinking to which they talk about GK chesterton's comments

10:24
right um yeah so I mean what do I I thought I thought that would say it but better than what I could say but U

10:31
essentially it's this idea that I could do a thing in anticipation with uh of what kind of consequences or uh you know

10:39
every action has equal and opposite reaction right like I can anticipate what that bounce back might look like or

10:45
whatever but thinking about what that bounce back might cause right like and

10:51
then and then that after that and after that you know that kind of thinking it through into the future as far as you

10:58
can I think can often you know like you said produce much better results it's it

11:04
can be the difference between um having a solid relationship with someone at

11:09
work or them feeling like you're always trying to get ahead it can be the difference between um you know getting

11:15
what you want out of your kids they're obedient they do what you say but maybe they leave they fly the coupe so to

11:22
speak right and they because you get what you want in the short term but you're missing that that second order of

11:28
consequences right right of like I can I can demand that they do what they say I can enforce this thing but I can't

11:35
change their heart and I can't yeah cause them to understand the reason for that and so second order thinking says

11:42
well I can get my way now or I can you know I guess compromise or whatever figure out how to communicate this in a

11:49
way um that that can deal with those second order consequences you know so those are just some of my thoughts uh

11:55
off the cuff since I didn't no and and that's and I think and I'll come back to

12:01
that as a therapist you know I mean and I I see them as fairly similar but you

12:07
know we're in in my world we're looking at change so quite often we'll refer to

12:15
first order change and second order change and I think in some ways it's

12:21
kind of similar because first order change is typically okay if I don't quit

12:27
this my wife is going to leave you follow me so there's some kind of pressure it's a singular you know

12:34
dynamic if I don't quit gambling let's say you know my wife's had it if I don't

12:40
stop this there's this singular pressure that may happen there's this one

12:46
consequence so even for the sake of that one consequence I may change but if if my

12:55
addiction is greater than that impetus for change mhm I may just say well I

13:02
prefer gambling to being married yeah you follow me yeah and and so that would

13:09
be a first order change that didn't happen but it but second order change is

13:15
that process where I'm able to establish so I see maybe that first

13:23
order change but then I go into the second order where I'm able to recognize oh my goodness

13:30
I didn't realize how gambling was affecting my personal finances I actually have a savings account now

13:37
because I quit gambling and now I'm feeling more confident in my ability to make decisions and I'm not as short with

13:46
my children because I don't have this stress and this pressure and it and it

13:51
and it it multiplies because I start to see the benefits of this change and it

13:57
becomes more lasting because there's greater benefit to it does that make sense from a change perspective it makes

14:04
perfect sense you also made me think about too when you're only working towards or thinking about that first

14:11
order what you say consequence first order change change yes and you achieve

14:16
that first order change the motivation might stop right like think this maybe what you're getting at too but or vice

14:24
versa like you remove that One Singular obstacle like maybe your wife leaves oh

14:29
okay yeah that I was trying to work towards that not happening but that's not a thing anymore so I guess gambling

14:36
is okay now right or whatever what you know so again like having that One

14:41
Singular uh order of change can be problematic and that it might not stick

14:47
and we've certainly seen that you know probably in counseling you've probably seen that I know I've seen that in

14:54
people's stories and in in in real life in a lot of ways that celebrate Rec recovery of just is like once that One

15:01
Singular point of pain disappeared or they addressed it right like they they

15:06
they did the thing they were supposed to do it often wasn't enough to maintain that change because you know yeah the

15:13
further things weren't recognized or realized or or valued yeah yeah and I

15:20
and and so that I I see the two is very similar so when that that first order

15:26
changed the you know that pressure may not necessarily be enough and I think when we're thinking from that from We're

15:35
when we're doing first order thinking I think it's similar we're just making a

15:40
decision based on a current comfort in the moment I don't like this I don't

15:46
want this restraint I don't want and so and I and so I think of that

15:53
you know in a in our cultural Dynamic and say I don't want that and yet I'm

15:59
not sure we always go to that second order thinking and saying okay if I do

16:06
away with that what else might happen so I I see your gears kind of

16:12
thinking based on what I said what what comes to mind for you when I think about that or is there a way you see

16:19
that well one thing I was thinking about is uh um what happened I I guess this is my

16:27
question how many times has has a fence been torn up only to be put back up

16:33
right uh to recognize like I didn't want this fence it's in my way can't get my

16:39
truck through whatever take it down oh you know the coyotes are getting my

16:45
chickens or whatever we should put that fence back up right and recognizing that the

16:51
inconvenience was worth it for what the benefit of that thing was and I think

16:57
you that's why he's saying like until you can go away and figure out why that

17:02
thing exists well then you certainly shouldn't tear it down because you don't know what the trade opposite you don't

17:07
know what the the pros and cons are yet you know yeah and um I do like one quote

17:13
in there it says um Chesterton also alluded to the all to Common belief that

17:18
previous generations were bumbling fools stumbling around constructing fences wherever they fancied yes yes which I

17:27
really liked I thought that was a funny quote but it's it's so true it's like um I think each generation probably has

17:33
their version of the fence where they go these idiots they put this fence up and

17:38
they how did they not how did they not realize we weren't going to be able to drive a truck through here you know or

17:44
whatever like how did they you know come up with this decision idiots you know yeah we need to remove this get it out

17:50
of the way and be done with you know their bumbling thoughts or whatever and of course you know yeah so how have you

17:58
experienced that that's what that's the part where as you mentioned you know tearing a

18:04
fence down how have you experienced the coyotes coming in to get your chickens putting me on the spot and and

18:10
feel do you have an answer I would like to hear your answer yeah I mean I think I'm not saying yeah in the sense of

18:16
course I have an answer but I think there's I I think there's put us both on

18:23
this but well no I'm really um I think about it in the sense of cuz I was

18:29
thinking about it in law when he said institutions and laws and I think there are those

18:36
Dynamics and for me it's a personal Dynamic I think um when we think about

18:41
what we're culturally experiencing about gender confusion yeah and that that

18:49
becomes a a a fence type Dynamic for me because I think when when we get sex

18:57
sexuality if I may say so uh confused with you know a fullon masculinity or

19:06
what is yes and and I think you know

19:11
we're trying to take down these fences and I'm not saying that parts of fences

19:17
can't be removed you f i mean I you know as you asking me I'm not necessarily

19:22
wanting to go completely down just one Rabbit Trail but I think of our nation in um

19:29
where immigration is concerned you follow me as far as just build a fence

19:35
don't build a fence you know take the fence go around the fence you know the so I'm thinking of this in it in its

19:43
current you know um current the ability to be current in

19:49
a present day I guess present time I'm thinking of different fences that I can

19:55
think about and I I think from my perspective I am experiencing more and more like

20:02
gender confusion in younger and younger kids as we've kind of decided to do away

20:11
with the fence you follow me and that that's those are the kind of things that are coming to my mind it's not a desire

20:18
to necessarily go on a soap box type thing in this but that is how I see it

20:24
as far as you know this heightened awareness that we need to do away with

20:32
you know him and her and and pronouns you know that whole confusion and what that yeah how that has you you talked

20:40
about your daughter going to a dance you know and I can recognize that yeah

20:45
there's there's certain pressures that go along with each sex male female you

20:52
know and I I don't want to I want to be careful right because I think when we

20:58
throw away male and female in general our quite often our desire to do so um

21:08
comes from a confusion regarding femininity or masculinity you follow me

21:16
yeah I do and I'm not because I I think that's where people that's where the

21:21
desire to tear down the fence comes from m is because you know well because we

21:28
talked about you know a lot of this when we talked about gender a few weeks ago and essentially there are obviously some

21:36
like with every fence there's inconvenience or or or there's there's things about it that can be why is this

21:43
fence here right like that you look at and go this is broken and we shouldn't have it here or it should be done

21:50
differently and um you know even in gender we talked about how there are certain way you know toxic masculinity

21:58
for instance um that you look at it you go yeah this this is broken like and yet

22:04
to look at it and go this is broken therefore we should pull the whole thing out and be done with it kind the baby

22:11
out with the bath water type thing yeah exactly I think that's probably a yeah

22:16
another word for chesterton's fence right it's the same idea sure um said a

22:22
little bit differently um but yeah so just yeah we don't want to give away too

22:27
much of our gender episode either it's a yeah no that and but it's all good but

22:33
still being able to recognize that and I and I and I do think it's an

22:39
arrogance yeah that tends to lead [Music] to they had it they had it they had it

22:46
all wrong if only they knew what I was thinking and in reality that that is

22:52
kind of a first order thinking mhm it's like you just do this and yeah

22:58
it's all good yeah when we don't necessarily and and I think you

23:04
know in in a lot of things that plague you know our government or our society

23:11
in some ways you know that's kind of a fundamental Dynamic we don't always think about it far enough in advance and

23:18
recognize the ramifications yeah of what we want to do out of

23:24
convenience I think I I think of even for me right now I think of you know gas

23:29
prices mhm you know and it's this is a complaint but I I think about it it's like I think about our forefathers and

23:34
it's like would they still be paying would they would they be doing something different you know because we went up to

23:40
four bucks and now we're excited when it dropped to 367 you know because it's

23:46
least we're not paying four bucks yeah but in retrospect months ago we were at

23:51
two but now we're excited to pay 367 cuz it's not four bucks and I and I think about that in a sense of okay what are

23:59
the ramifications of just continuing to I'm not saying throw it out but I'm

24:04
saying I do think about it with this in mind it's like okay what made that drop

24:10
in price and I'm happy if the fact that we're looking at the Ukraine and you

24:16
know there was more volatility there or something like that that led to this uncertainty that created this spike in

24:23
fuel price you know and yet there's also a part of me that's thinking and saying okay is this lower fuel price a benefit

24:31
of you know um the government using the the fuel reserves to basically create this

24:39
lower price so that people are more satisfied with what's going on you know these are the kind of things that go

24:46
through my mind while I'm filling up my truck at the Palm yeah some deep

24:53
thought yes this is how crazy Mark is but that's you know it's those those those are the things that I tend to

24:59
think about and I'm not saying other people don't

25:04
have those same thoughts but I guess that's my desire in this time is to be able to say okay yeah how am what am I

25:13
doing on a daily basis that I am doing out of impulse or just a desire uh to

25:21
have change and maybe not necessarily thinking about from its long-term

25:26
possibilities or implications to a certain degree which just this ties into the previous conversation we had about

25:32
changing our minds as well which is is you know my thought too is sometimes you you do see a fence you do think it's

25:39
worth taking down you start taking down and Midway through the removal recognize

25:46
oh like I said coyotes are getting through or whatever it is you we we often have the opportunity to to stop

25:54
what we're doing and change right go the other direction so I probably should put this back up yeah or whatever but um

26:01
there's this concept called sunk cost fallacy have you heard of that I have not it's this idea that like once you've

26:07
already invested a little bit well you got to go all the way because you there's a sunk cost involved and So you

26:13
you're already invested and if you back out the other direction you're going to lose more than if you continue forward

26:18
but the problem is if you continue forward the wrong direction you will lose more but but we but we have this

26:25
tendency humans just in general to go once you start a thing you got to finish it you got to move forward and again so

26:32
using that fence analogy it's like well I already started taking the fence down and it's you know half of it's in

26:38
shamble so I'm just going to finish taking it down we'll figure out the coyotes later sure right and um I I

26:45
think that ties into even what you're saying you know fuel prices whatever electric vehicles is a good example of

26:51
like let's replace the fence with an electric fence yeah yeah right um which is great for a lot of things but do we

26:58
know the implications there do we understand that and I I you know I also think about fuel

27:05
prices and you know my armchair thoughts you know how I see it is that I do think

27:12
the production of electric vehicles triggered some of those lower prices that we had because there's recognition

27:18
of like oh there's an end in sight potentially to this so we can't we can't

27:24
charge what we used to right and um you know and then obviously things happen or

27:29
whatever but of course there's danger there as well in the sense of once we completely shift over right to electric

27:37
vehicles will all of our waste be gone I we will no longer have waste we will no longer have um climate damaging anything

27:45
right which if you've read anything you know there are implications to battery recycling you know all this stuff like

27:52
there's a lot of issues on that side as well same with like um you know wind

27:57
power right you know that's that's a good idea it's harnessing Nature's power and turning it

28:03
into electricity but then we also know it kills Birds right like a lot of birds

28:09
like more than you would think and so we're trading one form for another and expecting there to be no second order

28:15
consequences and there are there are always because the the reason that we do

28:22
what we do was established through a course of several you know iterations

28:29
right and so what we arrived at was the tradeoff that we recognized as being the

28:34
most valuable at the time of course that doesn't mean that won't ever change and

28:40
I think that's ridiculous to say a fence should never come down and I don't think that's what this point is either it's

28:46
about understanding why it was there in the first place before you start dismantling so that when the you

28:52
understand the tradeoffs and you're willing to accept them yeah you know and I'm not sure we always think far enough

28:59
ahead sometimes to recognize what the tradeoffs might be mhm yeah and then

29:04
something you know like AS Global as what we're talking about Fuel and electric vehicles or whatever I mean

29:10
sometimes second order thinking isn't enough yeah fifth order sixth or like there's implications that are going to

29:17
occur far into the future by by Massive reworking of certain systems which again

29:26
I'm not saying they shouldn't be reworked but I think there's a lot of and I also think people are obviously

29:32
thinking through those things not everyone well and that's where I guess as as you were as you were talking there

29:39
I think about it too I think there's a difference between the ability to think consequences through and I also think

29:46
there's a difference between the ability to promote an agenda yeah and I think

29:52
you know sometimes fences can get in the way of an agenda mhm so I'm just going to take

29:59
them down period because they're in my way and I'm not sure that's always a

30:05
healthy way to look at life or Global Dynamics even from that

30:13
perspective I actually was thinking about an you know the agenda thing you

30:18
know even with the fuel or the electric and all that stuff and how like I think

30:24
this is kind of what you're getting at once a decision is made about Direction it's like well we got to put all of our

30:30
resources into that and and enforce that this direction is continued on yeah and

30:36
um I think it's uh I think that is very problematic for

30:42
so many reasons no doubt I also recognize that same thing happening even

30:48
in small small scales that I'm involved in where I think about at work for

30:53
instance and you know several you know a crew of like eight of us and we'll

31:02
come up with a decision to try and make things more efficient right or better for some for someone and and we'll

31:09
decide on a thing sometimes it's not my decision but I enforce it because I'm like well this guy is very smart and you

31:16
know he feels strongly about this let's go with this let's try it and so I'll find myself trying to enforce this

31:23
agenda for a period of time but it's not just because I believe in that that agenda sure it's because I

31:29
believe in the cohesiveness of our team I believe in consistency I believe in um

31:35
that person having value in trusting that they know what they're talking about like there's so many pieces to

31:43
quote unquote that agenda yeah that aren't just the single decision of whether it's it's the best thing or not

31:49
sure and so the reverse course touches all of those other things

31:55
not just the singular subject that we're talking about like oh yeah we shouldn't do that cuz it didn't work out he's like

32:02
there there's some implications that come with that well now that team member might feel slighted or feel like they

32:07
whatever and of I'm not saying again you shouldn't reverse course I think there's all of those things are second order

32:14
consequences as well of reversing your decision now those have to be dealt with and planned sure you know um and that's

32:23
like a very a very small scale and so you think about like when when the US

32:28
decides to put their weight into electric vehicles all the implications the

32:33
relationships that are built right relationships that are strained as a result of this decision and then talking

32:40
about reversing course I think often is that sun cost thing was like well I know

32:46
this is hard but going back that direction is going to be so much harder to get back to where we are reverse

32:52
course and we'll make us look like bumbling idiots and you know it's not

32:57
that hard to understand how once you get a certain level deep into something why

33:03
it would just continue to go that direction yeah um which we're you know at this point we're kind of getting away

33:08
from the original premise of the fence thing but I think it all ties in you know no and and I think that's where

33:15
yeah because they they and even in that article they mentioned hierarchy hierarchy and business and

33:21
businesses that have you know a model to you know remove hierarchy or no

33:28
hierarchy and you know and that the confusion that creates and I think that's what that's what elicited you

33:33
know how we see confusion in a lot of ways you know when there is just this

33:41
you do what you want to do as you want to do it type mentality I guess is is

33:47
where I'm at and I'm not saying that's everyone I'm just saying those are the areas that I see where the fence makes a

33:55
difference and I think like you're saying you can do away with the fence but at the same time if you're

34:01
doing away with it just for the sake of doing away with it you might reap some

34:07
there might be consequences that you're not aware of and I think to

34:12
um on your point I think Pride at times Keeps Us oh from from Pride wants us to

34:21
tear down the fence regardless that it wants us to be right when the coyotes

34:28
coyotes com like what coyotes did me take it down this fence

34:33
create these Co no no no no no this wasn't my and I think that's where

34:38
leadership as and we've talked about that before I don't want to be redundant but I think that's where good leadership

34:44
is able to say okay I made a mistake here I trusted the smart guy right you

34:49
know right and it it didn't go well right but at the same time that's not to

34:54
say that he's not a smart guy still and and at the same time we need to

35:01
course correct and that's where your job is at that point to be able to say yeah

35:07
and you can second guess but at the same time I'm seeing these indicators that

35:12
say this wasn't a good thing and we can turn back around and we can recognize

35:19
that yes even even like you said earlier you know maybe the electric car led to some of that maybe there was a

35:26
self-sufficiency factor you know as what we produce you know we're able to have

35:31
more control over that and there's a stability there to where when you know world events happen it doesn't create

35:38
such a spike right you know because they and I'm not saying it's always about self-confidence but yet I think that it

35:47
that does become a part of it to a certain degree and I think in some ways that's kind of like that second order change

35:53
it's like I can see the benefits of this need for Change and yes you may second

36:00
guess me for a while but ultimately I'm sensing that you know and I'm seeing

36:06
based on these facts that this wasn't a good choice and I can step back from that what was it the first one you said

36:12
when you continue on with something you know when you continue on with something even though it was a bad

36:18
idea you had a name for that oh yeah yeah sunk cost fallacy sunk cost policy yes yeah see I'm learning from you I I

36:25
uh but yeah because I think about that and I and and here again that's not to say that some fences don't need to be

36:31
removed number one myself I'm probably too cheap because I don't want to have to rebuild a fence at today's cost yeah

36:39
yeah for sure W prices me what they are um let's live with that fence for a

36:44
little while longer just as it is it looks good to me but but I think there again that can be it's like can can we

36:51
put a gate in the fence yeah can we you know I don't think it's always about tearing the entire thing down but

36:58
back to the premise which it requires second order thinking to go oh maybe not tear it down maybe or maybe leave it you

37:07
know but those decisions really should be made till you've exhausted what you

37:13
can know about the current structure um but um yeah so you mentioned the company

37:20
thing and I wanted to talk just expound on that a little bit this they talked about um hierarchy free companies MH U

37:29
this idea of you know there's kind of a loose hierarchy and people may have a title

37:35
like you know cat H herder right like the was that in the

37:41
article I didn't see that no it's not but I've seen that role you in cute companies right where it's like we have

37:47
a hierarchy free company or whatever you know just the idea of like they're kind of generally supposed to be in charge or

37:53
whatever but really it's they don't want to conin made that idea of hierarchy or

37:59
structure they want there to be a feeling of you know everyone's smart

38:05
everyone everyone's smart everyone's equal everyone can make smart decisions and uh but it kind of it to me it it

38:12
very much feels like uh what communism felt like which is when you look at it

38:18
on paper and you think about it from this um you know like everyone's good kind of idea it looks really good on

38:25
paper like what if we all just share and split it evenly like that would be great like um the people who are really

38:33
good at things can help people who aren't and we'll have this equal system where there'll be benevolence everywhere

38:40
no one will be upset at having more or less or whatever and I think hierarchy free companies feels the same way where

38:47
it's like it's going to be so great everyone will have a sense of authority and ownership in the company whatever

38:52
but the reality just like communism is not that what's on paper it ends up

38:58
being completely different and the reason is because humans are human right

39:04
and so in communism they're not just going to happily hand over their wages or if they do you're just going to

39:09
require a major structural governmental police force to ensure that they will

39:17
hand it over right and so now you're dealing with a huge government side of

39:22
things that enforces this thing and no chance that gets corrupt right because

39:27
we're in this perfect Utopia but no it doesn't work that way because of the human Dynamic human Dynamic right and so

39:33
I think communism is another one of those fence breakers like the way we were doing it whether it was imperialism

39:40
or democracy is broken for these various reasons which if you look at any fence I

39:46
think uh was it Benjamin Franklin said if you look at all forms of government

39:51
uh democracy is the worst one except for all the others you ever heard that yeah yeah which I think is hilarious and true

39:58
because the fact that there isn't a perfect right it's just and it's broken in so many ways you can look at it go

40:04
look at how it's you know broken in this way and this way but yet it's Prov in itself you know that it's a pretty fine

40:11
fence and yeah it's got some holes and it need some repair and sometimes we got to move one end of the post to another

40:19
spot or whatever um but yeah the hierarchy free companies I'm really rabbit trailing uh

40:25
I've I've been in in organizations where that was the ideal and I can tell you it's not ideal

40:33
yeah okay um because no one quite has the authority so they don't know what

40:38
they can do and so you're left kind of doing mediocre work because it's like I

40:45
think this is what I'm supposed to do and you're there's a little bit of fear at risking yourself and then there will

40:51
be some people who do risk themselves and go you know put themselves out there whatever take Authority or whatever and

40:58
in some cases they'll benefit from it like they'll be recognized and there's you know some form of hierarchy that

41:05
kind of still surfaces in that way and then in some cases they'll be like no that was wrong you shouldn't have done

41:10
that and they'll sink back into you know and there just and then when you know

41:15
the proverbial crap hits the fan it's like well who's responsible well you usually find out that there's still

41:22
hierarchy when crap hits the fans someone's got to answer for this right right and

41:28
a good leadership is someone who answers for when the crap hits the fan and they protect everyone under them from it and

41:36
obvious you know there's also bad leadership which is where you know management you look at the hierarchy and

41:42
it's a bunch of birds on a triangle right and the top bird is crapping on the second row and the second row is

41:48
crapping on the third row like that's the kind of that's the fence that the hierarchy free companies

41:54
are trying to tear down this bureaucracy this IDE you know everyone's just crapping downwards and it's like I got yelled at

42:01
so you're going to get yelled at and I got deadlines so you're going to have deadlines and you know that kind of

42:06
thing and of course that is broken yeah um yeah so it's just very interesting

42:12
but again I've I've been in part of organizations where I'd much rather know who my boss is I'd much rather know who

42:18
I answer to I'd much rather know they said this so I have to do it whether I like it or not then to have the freedom

42:25
to say well I can just do the thing I want but what are the I don't necessarily

42:30
know the consequences the second order consequences of that decision right um

42:36
anyway so for you and I'm and I'm thinking about this is is this just

42:41
comfort from based on the generation you grew up in hierarchy yes uh very

42:49
potentially yeah I mean that's it's very possible like that's my fence is that what you mean well no I'm thinking about

42:55
it in this this is it possible and and I'm I'm I'm hearing

43:01
what some individuals might be thinking in my own mind as I'm listening to you

43:08
awesome say that and I'm and I'm thinking about the individual possibly a younger individual that says well yeah

43:15
that's you're you're good with hierarchy because that's what you grew up with and you're comfortable with it he's pouring

43:21
some coffee if you hear that sound

43:29
yeah that's good but either way I'm yeah because I'm

43:36
looking at you and saying okay here's a here's a late 30s something that's

43:42
that's grown up with a positive Dynamic of

43:48
hierarchy and I'm saying maybe there's a 25 something out there it's saying well

43:54
that's just because right that's what you like and you see it and you haven't seen the benefits of being a cat herder

44:02
MH well I shouldn't use catur I don't necessarily see that as a positive analogy but you know this this

44:09
utopian because I'm hearing everything you're saying as far as developing

44:15
complacency and you know there is this confusion that goes along I think that's

44:21
why in some cases and here again but you know I I would say you know every

44:27
military movie you watch you know that's part of the dynamic is there is this you

44:32
know we want to take out the leadership because that creates a confusion but yet there are those leaders that rise up and

44:39
people will so I'm just wrestling with that in my own mind as far as that

44:45
individual because I'm Comfort I'm I'm wrestling with it in that aspect that I'm comfortable with what you're saying

44:51
too yeah yeah and yet I'm trying to see

44:56
it from someone's different perspective that sees the value in hierarchy free MH

45:04
and I'm not sure I'm convincing myself I'm being honest with you but at the

45:09
same time go ahead I see the thoughts uh well I'm just thinking about as that young

45:16
20-some or whether the hierarchy free means great I can be recognized for all

45:23
the passion and fire I have to like I look at the 39 year olds and they're

45:30
kind of leaning back in their chair and I'm raring to go like they're looking at me saying you're in leadership but

45:38
you're not doing what I would do sure I you I have so much more fire and passion

45:44
to produce amazing things than someone who's been around the block right sure

45:50
which I think it's true I think there is this young man's passion sure that gets squashed in the current hierarchical

45:58
system I think what teachers teachers come to mind when you say it like that

46:04
okay you know a young teacher fresh out of college you know has all of the the

46:10
fire to you know in some way and I'm I'm not being sarcastic but that fire to

46:17
change the world and yeah yes I'm now I'm good keep going and I'm thinking

46:23
from my own personal experience as well like being involved with like church from a young age there

46:30
was a time where I was like I'm on fire I want to shake things up I feel like we

46:37
should do things so differently in in church in in envir in a certain environment and I look like you know 15

46:45
years removed from that person MH and I'm glad I'm looking back and going I'm so glad he wasn't handed the

46:53
Reigns if that makes sense now yeah things would have been lit on fire and

46:58
that would have been there's sometimes Fire's good right like I'm not I just as gonna burn the fence down exactly

47:05
exactly I think there's uh I think it would be foolish to ignore

47:12
the benefits in value in Fire and in passion and in Youth and so often the

47:21
current system is broken in that way I hear you and I don't know how to solve

47:27
that but I don't think tearing the fence down is the way to solve it but I do

47:33
it's like one of those things where you recognize that the current system isn't perfect yes and there could be

47:38
improvements but so how do we how do we engender that you know that passion

47:45
in a safe way that doesn't burn the fence down but also maybe it blazes a path through it in a particular place

47:51
where we put a gate in like you said um so that I think that's the position my

47:58
younger self is going give me room to grow like give me room to make these

48:03
things that you guys don't have the guts to do you know it's like I think in some cases that's true you know but again

48:12
that passion can be out of control that passion can be misguided and it can be missing the second third order

48:19
consequence thinking MH cuz you're only looking at the fence and you're angry it's there it's like why do you people

48:25
leave this fence here yeah you know and I so I think I think I think a lot of

48:30
times that fence becomes more apparent why it exists the longer you're around the fence yeah you know and I and I am

48:38
here again this isn't about us in the podcast but I am reflecting on how I see

48:44
it makes such a difference there yes and I and I can recognize you know to a

48:50
certain degree that young passionate person is basically seeing the lead

48:56
ership as being complacent MH yes and you know and maybe that's not the case

49:03
maybe there's some experience here that I'm not necessarily aware of and yes the

49:10
leadership might be able to acknowledge hey I appreciate this Zeal that you have

49:15
and I value it but and at the same time you can trust me that I'm going to take

49:21
your input to the degree that I think it's valuable and I'm going to Value you as a person

49:27
but at the same time you know I've and I

49:32
I think of some individual you know so often the person who has been

49:37
there longer has actually seen or heard that before and experienced how we've

49:44
tried that particular thing and it didn't really work right and I and I

49:50
think that's where you know valuing one another and what we

49:57
experience how we see it what who may have seen the benefits of this fence

50:03
versus the individual well that doesn't see a benefit to it but yet still

50:09
recognizing there can be places where we put gates in yeah I think that's the

50:15
yeah yeah well um a good balance to this article is another one on farum street

50:21
where he talks about um Jeff Bezos one of his kind of

50:27
thought you know I guess guiding thoughts in the way he ran Amazon he's the CEO of Amazon or was actually he

50:35
just moved on from that but obviously he he built a pretty ridiculous company um

50:42
and one of the guiding principles is is the idea of reversible and irreversible decisions and so when we're talking

50:48
about defense um you know removing a board is reversible we can say yeah let's see what that does and I think

50:55
good leadership is able to recognize kind of the difference where where the

51:00
the the consequences have much further second order consequences or they're not

51:05
that significant so we can just try it right and I think to your point about

51:11
sometimes we have we say well we've we've done that before and it was broken and so we're not willing to try new

51:18
things or whatever sure sometimes the thing is you know not the same thing but we see it as the same how I see it is

51:24
yes been there done that no thank you M how they see it is no what you did was

51:29
that was a stupid thing this is way better right right and so I think this I

51:35
mean at some point we got to talk about good true leadership right because there so much of this ties into that but good

51:41
leadership is able to recognize okay yes there's potentially differences here how

51:47
much impact will this decision make if we try it and is it reversible you know and I think sometimes you can move fast

51:53
break things and put the things back right back up right like uh the idea of

51:59
move fast and break things is problematic if the things you're breaking can't be put back up right um

52:06
but if they can be that's that's where Amazon comes in right like let's try it let's try it let try it iterate iterate

52:11
iterate and if it's reversible go back you know and like we can try those things but it requires strong leadership

52:17
to recognize we can try things we can put things back yeah and not get stuck

52:23
in the Sun cause fallacy of like well we're we're trying it so we got to run with it and and tell you know whatever

52:30
um yeah we'll have to put in the show notes a link to both of those I think

52:35
they're really good articles um if you don't mind there's one other quote I

52:41
really like so because I know we're we're we're close on time yep and I know it's going

52:46
to shut us off right at exactly um and the chesteron fence article they move

52:52
into the discussion of even um addiction um and so they talk about recovery

52:57
programs he basically says attempting to remove the habit and leave everything

53:02
else untouched does not eliminate the need and can simply lead to a replacement habit that might be just as

53:10
harmful or even worse because of this more successful approaches often involve

53:15
replacing a bad habit with a good benign or less har harmful one or dealing with

53:21
the underlying need and I thought man that is so good and there's a term in AA

53:29
called the dry drunk right it's this idea that someone is no longer drinking but every other version of their life is

53:36
exactly the same you know every other part of their life looks exactly the same um or like you know in the case of

53:43
you know you remove one potential Sav for the problem right like maybe they're

53:49
smoking weed and you take that away or you whatever and they find something else because that need was not met sure

53:58
and so I don't know I just that's a big reason why you know I've always cared so

54:04
much about Celebrate Recovery because it's like let's get to the root let's not just chop the leaves off and when

54:10
they come back chop them again chop them again and and say you know whatever but let's let's dive into the dirt and

54:16
figure out where is this thing starting from and maybe there's a way to solve that that that deeper need and um I

54:24
don't know I just I really like what they're saying in there cuz even even a bad habit can be a fence that if you

54:30
remove it doesn't you know it's I don't it's that that was really good yeah no

54:36
that is good yeah the old Barney FIP nip it in the bud nip it in the bud yeah but go back

54:44
to the root of where it came from mhm in such a way that says yeah yeah and so

54:51
like going back to the fence analogy well the fence is there because of coyotes well if we could figure out how

54:57
to control the population of coyotes maybe the fence wouldn't be necessary right and so whatever that looks like

55:04
maybe they're Predators we did something to remove them and we can bring them back and keep that get that ecos system

55:11
more balanced and I you know what I mean like just example of going back to the root of the problem and and figuring out

55:17
why the fence is there in the first place and then you can safely remove the fence because the coyotes AR handled

55:24
right yeah no yeah it's good stuff that's how we

55:30
see it that's how I see [Music] it hey thank you for listening to our

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