0:06
if a person's speaking with headphones on in front of a microphone can they be

0:13
heard if someone does not have their earbuds

0:21
in that is that's like the tree falling in the forest yes exactly you know you

0:28
so this episode is sponsored by oo quiet time

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yeah just our own little blend there yeah so if you like to buy uh 12pack

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value [Music]

2:00
welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

2:06
podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

2:12
[Music] conversations uh so Mark I'm Dandy today

2:19
how are you I am very well and I'm glad you're Dandy Justin I'm glad you remember and now you're doing it on your

2:25
own you did right did I'm trying to really you know really Justus this that's all right we're going to have a

2:32
hasht Dandy that's right that's the goal and then quiet time kombucha there you

2:38
go another hashtag brought to you by quiet time Kucha so now whenever you have a I'd have to bring out a different

2:44
voice for that let's see brought to you by quiet time kapucha that sounds a

2:49
[Music] got good sound effect that was the wrong

2:54
one that's okay we don't have a good one for that we'll work on it we'll Workshop it maybe not more today but like I say

3:01
yeah yeah it's good to see you it's good to see I'm I'm glad you're Dandy yeah me too yeah uh what's your thoughts for

3:08
today my thoughts for today yeah we're going to talk a little bit

3:14
about a little bit about a lot oh no um so there's this we might talk a lot

3:21
about a little bit too that that's probably more accurate to talk a lot about a little bit

3:28
um yeah so there's this concept of what we call codependency in the recovery

3:34
world I want to talk a little bit about that drop my pen that's all right yes

3:40
and I'm back he's back did you hear this 3D surround sound as I came to my mic oh

3:46
I I didn't notice it but I noticed it more as you demonstrated demonstrated what 3D surround back to the topic I'm

3:53
sorry yeah it's all good very distracted this morning so I'm I didn't have my quiet time I'm thinking about codependence in

4:01
recovery you said is that what you yes okay so the reason I say that is cuz I don't actually I've been so immersed in

4:08
the recovery world for so long I don't actually know how it touches in the rest

4:14
of the world like you know patry and that kind of thing and if the definitions over there are similar but

4:20
before I want to hear the rest of your thought there I just want it was just a question yeah yeah well I want to want

4:26
to hear more of that question no uh and then the the other kind of edges of this

4:31
topic would be enabling um as well as boundaries so

4:36
these are all kind of in a similar bucket of topics that touch on each other sure

4:43
um so we anticipate that this may bleed into a second episode hey maybe even a

4:49
third yeah but an ongoing conversation about um all of these things so back to

4:54
you mark no that's interesting it's interesting that uh and I and I this is

5:00
my perspective here again we we don't want to hear how you see it oh don't

5:05
wait well I think I think in my from what I hear you

5:12
know it can sound these these names these labels can sound more complicated

5:20
than they really are okay because we have a lot of especially codependency

5:26
codependency that's like such an amorphous blob ofor recovery and and mesh excuse me no I'm

5:34
going to add another word no enabling okay but here's here's I know we all we

5:41
routinely come back to continuums that's right okay but I think

5:47
I think they're helpful yeah okay so I'm going to I'm going to start off with a Continuum that's going to help us Define

5:53
this awesome okay he's got his hands in the a right and left beginning the

5:59
continue I got my bookend hands okay now picture in my right hand this book my

6:05
right book end okay that's going to be a term that I'm going to call in meshed

6:11
okay okay and for the sake of my left hand I'm going to just go to there and that's going to be

6:18
isolation Okay so in meshed if we stop and think about that it's going to look

6:26
very like very much like a plate of spaghetti H okay yep because you know or

6:32
put your fingers together intertwine your fingers that's that's in meshed I like the spaghetti I'm going to I'm

6:38
going to stick the spaghetti well it's a good analogy because you I think you use the word that uh squishy you know some

6:46
of these terms are squishy it's it is like that plate of spaghetti you just push against it and it's like it moves

6:52
but yet everything moves mhm all at the same time you push a little bit here it

6:57
just kind of moves and absorbs and it's hard to know where one starts one ends exactly so from that perspective okay

7:06
I'm seeing I'm going to look at that word in meshed okay and I think it fits

7:11
for your um addictions that kind of thing and meshed is to the point of my

7:19
problems are your problems and your problems are my problems MH they're

7:24
again very much connected with codependency you know you're happiness

7:30
my happiness is dependent upon your happiness you know those kind of things

7:35
to where there's there's very limited boundaries MH okay yeah on the other end

7:42
of course is isolation that where than that's the one you know dry noodle that fell on the floor and in the corner all

7:49
by itself by itself it's the one that got thrown to the wall to see if it's stuck and it fell to the floor and it

7:54
stayed right there okay it's no longer it's just all dried up and and it's a

8:01
good analogy for people who tend to live in isolation Okay all dried up just yeah

8:07
because there didn't there's there's little connection there's little ability

8:14
to uh replenish myself yeah and so I tend to so these are the the ends if you

8:23
will those the bookends the right hand left hand and and I think part of that is the process of

8:29
go ahead sorry but isolation I want to recognize is okay I'm not connected to

8:36
anybody so you know you switch hands on me yep I did I went to left cuz cuz that

8:41
was the spaghetti that fell to the floor okay and it's all dried up and that's the isolation that's the isolation

8:48
that's the person who you know is the rock is the island you know they don't feel this they they've just they've just

8:56
had enough of it all and they want to just go it's the woman at the well yeah

9:02
living in isolation just going you know to the well at the middle of the day

9:08
because she's drank from this well this well that well and it's all been dry so I'm just living apart from everyone and

9:15
that can also start uh that can preed proceed from a life of that nature or it

9:23
can proceed from uh like uh we talking about investment Styles like a certain

9:30
upbringing can just cause you to be that way from the very beginning is that right isolated nor normally it comes out

9:36
of a a frustration or hurts okay you know those kind of things it's like I've

9:42
had enough you know or I've just I've just been um I think of you know people

9:48
who tend to avoid emotion because they just kind of grew up with emotions being

9:53
bad so I just kind of go to that your it guy but you know there would be a good

10:00
example of somebody who just says Okay I want to kind of go to my own little world I want to work off I mean I want

10:05
to work you know remote I want to just spend my days apart from people cuz

10:11
people just frustrate me that kind of is that what you think we do Mark no but is

10:16
it's just one of those things I I know you have a desire to spend probably more time with people than apart from people

10:22
but your job yeah yeah is that I'm actually with people all day sure yeah

10:28
if you call it that tell yourself that Justin yeah we need

10:35
to go back what was that the social media episode where you talking about if they're real relationships exactly this

10:41
is a call back folks yeah um I really like the idea of the Continuum uh as

10:47
usual because it it very much says the opposite of the thing that's

10:53
bad is not always good right like if you go the fly to the other side sure then

10:59
that's not necessarily good which happens to be a great segue in terms of

11:06
um some of the things I've been thinking about with codependency sure but I think before and boundaries mhm yeah yes to

11:14
where Yeah well yeah go ahead yeah uh I guess that's I was just thinking that through yeah so um in codep before we

11:23
get there sure CU I want to go there boundar you lead the way I follow

11:29
making notes folks on his non-real

11:36
notebook go ahead sorry uh it is a digital tablet and that's why he says

11:42
it's not real I just just to catch everyone up yeah um I think we need to Define codependency at least try um so

11:51
um I want to hear I want to hear yours first I would I would say okay sorry to

11:58
put you on the spot no it's all good it's all good um oh pause pause I am so

12:04
squirly this morning I'm sorry I should have brought a little Kaba for you maybe I had too much

12:11
kombucha um no um pause because I wanted to ask you is there a you've been in the

12:18
celebrate covery world for a little while now you've experienced kind of our version of what caby is I think sure is

12:25
is it pretty much the same in Psychiatry is that a a real thing over there I'd

12:31
have to know your definition to compare it to my definition but I see understanding okay cuz see uh I'm going

12:37
to I'm going to basically I'll make another Continuum

12:42
for the sake of codependence what I would call in meshed is going to be codependent if I'm in my right hand if

12:49
I'm yep in my right hand again on my left hand okay is

12:55
independent yep okay the dried up so the dried up noodle and in the middle okay

13:01
is going to be interdependent yeah so I can learn to have relationship I can be

13:07
in relationship and yet I know where you start and I stop and meshed or

13:15
codependent don't know where that line is so it's too mingled together there's

13:22
limited boundaries so your happiness is dependent upon my happiness and vice

13:28
versa that's codependent to where interdependence is the ability to go to

13:34
work and be you know myself and you know have autonomy if you will you know from

13:40
My Wife and from other people who are close to me but yeah I come back I don't have to live in that isolation I don't

13:47
have to live that completely independent life the whole John Wayne P pick yourself up by your bootstraps type

13:53
stuff yeah and I can have this interdependence that says okay I have friends have supports I have my family

14:01
and we support one another and yet if you get in trouble or if you do

14:07
something that you know gets you in trouble that's not necessarily my problem yeah I'm willing to be a support

14:15
we can work through some of the details but ultimately you got in trouble and

14:20
now you're experiencing consequences and it's not my job to make those consequences go away for you yeah and

14:28
well well it'll be great to move into some examples too um at some point U but

14:35
as you talk about in you know as far as like what does this look like in families or relationships but um before

14:43
that you know when you use the term interdependence like stepen cvy talks a lot about this concept of um these

14:50
Concepts in the seven habits for Highly Effective People when he talks about um moving from Independence to

14:56
interdependence and basically how dependence is the first state we arrive

15:01
in this planet right like we are completely dependent on our caretakers we are un aable to whatever and the goal

15:07
is to move to Independence to be able to you know get on your bike and ride across town and buy yourself a soda you

15:13
know I don't know if they kids do that these days you know that kind of thing and then but that's not the ultimate the

15:19
ultimate is to move into interdependence and then he would say interdependence is where his buzzword Synergy comes in

15:26
that's where you're able to do something that's more the sum of the parts so you

15:31
plus me you know 1 + 1 equals 2 and he was he's saying when you put two people

15:37
together um there's an opportunity for synergy synergy is a multiplicative effect sure uh where U plus b equals you

15:45
know a podcast right where hopefully multiple people are impacted as a result of our you know multiplied efforts here

15:53
yeah that kind of thing Synergy right so but that's not possible without that interdependent nature and I would argue

16:00
on the codependent side when you've become gone past interdependence where you're in complet what do you call them

16:07
and meshed and meshed yes um it's becomes almost impossible for Synergy as

16:12
well where you know our parts together create something that's greater than the

16:17
sum of the parts instead it's more likely that they start rubbing against like the sum of the parts is less than

16:23
the sum of all the sure single you know the parts um and I think that's that's

16:29
another good uh potential way to look at it and see signs of codependency say

16:34
when he and I are together we don't create a better we we end up worse than

16:40
when we're apart you know and that's that can be a good sign of or is there some codependence or in mment yeah your

16:47
thoughts no I I'm I'm in agreement with all that and I and I like you know I

16:52
appreciate the fact that you brought um dependence in and I think you know in

16:59
a lot of cases when we put Co in front of that word it's just it's just adding to it's just two people that are

17:05
dependent on one another you know it's two people that have found each other

17:10
and you know they need someone to depend upon yeah I've I've heard newcomers to

17:18
the recovery world go oh yeah me and my wife we're codependent you know and and

17:23
they describe it almost in a loving way like we can't live without each other and you're like I don't think you quite

17:29
understand what codependence is cuz that's you know that's not that's not a sign of it right like no no and and I

17:35
think that's and I think in our culture okay uh codependence can seem very

17:41
romantic yeah yeah like the Bonnie and Clyde ride ride or

17:47
die together live without Live Without You undying love like when you are

17:52
you're away I'm pining I can't do life without you yeah

17:59
yeah all and and I think but when we look at healthy

18:04
relationship we can recognize okay I enjoy life with you but I can live

18:10
without you that's that ability to go be interdependent in such a way that says

18:17
okay yeah I don't when you go to work I know you're going to work and I'm not

18:23
concerned about that you're someplace else because you have demon at that

18:30
that's what's happening now I may have had people in the past you know who have

18:36
cheated on me or something along that line so yeah I I have to call that into

18:43
question but that's where you know I'm starting to create these boundaries around what people have done to me in my

18:51
previous life versus not previous life but you know early on in life in my past

18:57
history you know to to this relationship and allowing and that's where and yeah

19:03
that's where my hands come up because I'm starting to Define some of those boundaries and I'm pulling them in from

19:10
the extremes of right and left a little more to you know where my shoulders are

19:15
and that's where you're able to you know find that interdependence that says okay yeah I I

19:22
enjoy being with you and yet if we go away on vacation 7 days is probably

19:29
about as long as we want to be able to you know be together because we're going

19:34
to be longing to have some Independence again where you do your things and I do

19:39
my things and that recharges Us in such a way that we come back together better

19:45
to be able to be interdependent because I'm telling you about my day and you're

19:51
telling me about what you experien and that's that Synergy that basically the

19:56
the the energy is able to flow from that emotional intelligence that says hey this is part of who I am and I want you

20:03
to know about it and what are your thoughts yeah yeah so when when a when a couple

20:10
isn't able to have that because there's codependence then it then it's well

20:16
what' you do that for why'd you do that really you know and it and it takes

20:22
on a negative tone versus a a a healthy tone that says wow tell me more

20:29
yeah you know because there's a I would I would I would call that there's a

20:34
insecurity you know that is that is fostering that dependence because you know I don't know

20:42
who I am without you and that makes it and that makes it

20:48
tough just to be me yep so that that's kind of and I and I think um you were

20:55
talking about examples and I would say um alcoholic

21:01
families are a great example of in meshed because the of course they have

21:07
family secrets you know we've done uh in how we love stuff you know I've had

21:12
couples you know or um yeah couples who have talked about their childhood and they uh the term uh public faces yeah

21:19
comes up you know that that process of who we are outside the home you know and

21:26
recognizing well you can't tell anybody about you know that's that's in meshed because

21:31
at that point you know my alcoholism is affecting my children in such a way that

21:38
they can't say what's really going on so my problem has suddenly become my

21:44
child's problem is my wife's problem that's where that definition you know your problems are my problems and my

21:50
problems are your problems MH so even before we get to the examples I'd like to uh explain the difference between the

21:58
codependent and the why don't we have a word for the other side of that that's always bothered me the other side in

22:05
recovery we say the addict we say the codependent and the addict but you know that's obviously very

22:12
um microscopic of course codependency exists outside of addiction right

22:18
like so uh often so okay when you say an addict of so often when we hear

22:25
codependency and we're not aware of kind of this is why we're doing this because I'm sure a lot of people aren't sure

22:31
privy to what that idea is you think it's a two two sides of the coin so or

22:37
basically it's it's two people in the same situation they're samely codependent yep but in my relience in my

22:45
understanding they're not doing the same things to each other codependent it is there is the codependent the side that

22:52
is what we call codependent and then there's the addict okay so I'm going to define those two sides then you can let

22:59
me know if that Jes with your understanding yes so the codependent

23:05
side is essentially the the side that is covering that is uh can't figure out how

23:11
to do life without making sure you're okay like and so they do a lot of covering they do a lot of enabling in

23:18
order to feel okay about themselves they have to feel okay about you in order to feel okay about you they have to cover

23:24
for your transgressions whatever they are in an addict's case it's you know

23:30
you know covering for their drinking or sometimes even going to the store to get them a drink cuz they know that'll calm

23:35
them down and that save face for certain things or whatever or um just being

23:40
afraid of that person and therefore continuing those Cycles out of fear but it's kind of that side of the coverer

23:48
okay yep I got you where the other side is the covery that's the one that's kind

23:53
of the bull in the china shop not realizing the damage that they're doing and or being you know also being enabled

24:01
to continue this Behavior because it's always covered and it's always handled and taken care of and so they can

24:07
continue in that behavior and so you can picture an alcoholic and his wife or you can picture you know a drug addict and

24:14
his parents you know and that's a common Dynamic where the parents are kind of

24:19
trying to cover for and it's all in good in the right uh intentions and all that

24:25
this isn't about that it's just drawing the lines uh where the the the child is

24:30
the addict and they're just continually slightly getting away with it right like one way or another cuz

24:36
it's C may not even slightly yeah yes I mean over time yes yes I yeah I say

24:42
slightly and what I mean by that is maybe completely but not for a lifetime

24:48
they are going to experience significant pains and what happens when you hold back the pains is that you are

24:55
guaranteeing a much bigger pain at some point sure and I think that's the part that's that's where you know

25:01
codependence becomes nefarious like evil sure is like it's done in love and it's

25:06
done in all these good intentions but what you're actually doing is preventing the proper things happening at the right

25:13
scale now sure you know but anyway so that that's kind of where I would draw the lines kind of the two sides to hear

25:19
your and it I'll be honest with you that's why I needed you to Define

25:25
um I would recognize that from my perspective initially till we started

25:30
talking a little more I would see that as still codependent because each person

25:36
has a role MH one's a one's a one's a caretaker and one needs someone to take

25:41
care of them so you know that that cycle becomes codependent because what I I

25:48
believe on the other side on the the what you would label the codependent

25:54
okay yes they're the caretaker but the addict needs someone to take care of

26:01
them so in that process what the what the

26:06
caraker is saying is I don't think you can take care of yourself correct so the

26:15
the the addict would say you're right I need you right until you try

26:22
to create boundaries then I don't need you I may have to find somebody else that's going

26:27
to repl issue right or or I'm left to deal with the consequences and health

26:33
might happen exactly and and that's where yeah so it sounds like go ahead I

26:39
I'm going to view that as a cyclical Dynamic so you're seeing codependency as this basically this cloud above

26:45
relationships and it's kind of the covering yes and I think that that's makes a lot of sense because again in

26:54
my much more zeroed in understanding of recy I like no one's ever been that

27:02
clear no cendy is because we're always describing the parents and the

27:09
alcoholics white we're we're describing that enabling side when we talk about codependency in the recovery world and I

27:16
feel like that's where it gets confusing because I do that it makes a lot of sense where codependency is kind of the

27:22
relational description of the relation relational dysfunction uh and what

27:28
is really true is that we actually need better definitions for both sides of that is what I think you know and I'm

27:35
and I'm thinking about even the the caretaker if you will we we could say the addict you know but really from my

27:43
perspective the caretaker is addicted to taking care yeah so you're right in

27:49
recovery we we very often say the uh you know both s how do how do they say it

27:56
both sides are the same level of sick yes it's just that the sickness Bears

28:02
out differently know so yes and that and that's where you know healthy me healthy

28:07
us type stuff comes into play that two two healthy individuals who marry or you

28:14
know have a relationship you know have a healthy relationship but you know to the

28:20
degree that I have to have someone to take care of I need a project so I date

28:25
projects or you know then I'm automatically setting myself up to a certain degree for failure because I

28:33
need somebody that has major issues to fix so that I feel better about myself

28:38
being able to fix someone else yep yeah so I mean that and I but don't get me wrong I appreciate your definition in

28:45
that as far as you know the addict and you know the codependent because I think you know it is but I see it as very

28:52
cyclical yeah in in the sense of each part each person has a role

28:59
and and here again I'm not an addictions counselor you know licensed that from

29:05
that perspective but my uh my supervisor was okay and you know and she very much

29:10
and I think it's an analogist to the um to the pain that you mentioned earlier

29:17
you know to be a good addictions therapist you have to she what she would

29:22
refer to she has you have to be able to light fires under people you know because it is a about creating that pain

29:29
or you know that recognizing the cost benefit type Dynamic that helps people

29:35
recognize their need for change and I think you know to and that that's what

29:41
makes codependency so difficult is because neither one of us want to endure

29:47
the pain that it takes to create change right both sides both sides right yes

29:54
because I can't deal with your anger long enough for the addict to go without whatever I you know he needs Y and that

30:01
kind of thing and often a big uh enemy to change is fear right like fear of the

30:08
unknown or fear yeah yeah just fear so that can often be a blocker as well sure

30:14
um yeah so codep let's for for the sake of the rest of discussion let's just say codependency is the relational Dynamic

30:21
that covers both sure and then as far as terms go we're going to call this side the codependent sure okay okay and this

30:28
side the addict okay but you can swap those out for someone who's not an addict but let's just use those terms

30:34
because I think it I just I need a shared language Mark that's okay I'm I'm

30:39
I'm I'm able to go with that sure unless you have better terms no no I'm good with that you can say this side is a

30:46
strawberry that's going to be a little confusing I'm afraid sounds more sounds more like fruit

30:51
punch it does uh and this is not a fruity situation no not at all you're

30:58
you're pointing no no that's good did I point like you were going to say something no no I appreciate I

31:04
appreciate the need for that definition yeah because yeah so we can proceed forward so um cuz examples for if we're

31:12
going to give some examples and you know we already started in on something but it'd be good to kind of say the sides of

31:18
that but um again I know um the parental relationship to an addict is a good

31:24
example of that where the codependent side would be the parents and the addict side would be the child sure and um I've

31:31
had a lot of discussions with about that specific thing over the many many years

31:38
and one thing I found is that it's nearly impossible

31:44
to it's just so hard to tell parents to do tough love because you know what you're asking them you know you know you

31:51
see it in their eyes you see it in their reactions you see it in their defensiveness you're asking me to take a

31:57
knife and stab it into my child's chest that's what you're asking me to do you know what I'm saying that can be the way

32:03
they see it that yes yes very much I'm I'm going all the way to their side and I'm saying this is this is what it is to

32:10
them this is what you're asking me to do yeah and yeah on on your side you're

32:15
like that's what they're seeing whatever and on our side is easy but at the same time until we can there's no way they're

32:22
going to take any kind of counseling until you can kind of see MH how extreme

32:28
it is what you're asking them to do from their perspective and then do the work

32:35
to I guess dismantle sure um those perceptions but in some cases it's

32:44
I a recent conversation is about a child with um mental health

32:51
struggles and in that case some of the boundaries that I I feel like would be

32:58
healthy in that relationship I can see how they potentially could be that knife

33:04
stabbing in the you know sure if that child receives a boundary and therefore does something to hurt himself MH you

33:11
know how do you not as a parent perceive it as I just took a knife and stabbed it in my child's chest you know what I mean

33:18
sure so that's where and and we're not that far removed from an addict where

33:24
they're saying I know if I stop paying for his school he's going to just slip

33:30
into this crowd he's going to get out of all the good influences he has mhm and

33:36
you so basic and then in that case like the the mortality rate of the

33:43
type of environment I see him slipping into is very high you might as well ask

33:48
me to stick a a knife in his chest sure right so I don't think it's that far off to

33:54
say that no I hear you you know and I think I think it's important understand how difficult of an ask it can be in

34:00
certain C in a lot of circumstances and I think that's important for for counselors I think it's

34:07
important also for just friends you know like people hopefully listening to this

34:12
podcast going I know someone like that and I think they're stupid for paying for their kids school or whatever that

34:17
situation is and it's like yeah but you need to understand what's at stake here

34:24
sure especially in their mind and I think and I think so often often it doesn't matter what other people think I

34:30
think you know we get caught up in that at times um but yeah what would what

34:37
would you say to that parent who's facing that knif thrust type I mean the

34:44
first thing that I say is holy crap I see how hard this is you know what I

34:49
mean I guess that's kind of the point I'm making like we can't just hand wve it away and say well trust us this is

34:57
better for your child and you know the stuff we were saying earlier like it

35:03
takes time to get to those points of saying listen what you're doing now is actually less loving what you're doing

35:10
now you perceive as the most loving thing I'm I'm giving of myself in so many ways that hurt me but benefit my

35:17
child that is the very definition of love but I will often come back to say

35:23
like what is love love is doing is wanting the best for someone and doing

35:30
what I can to Pro produce that the best and in this case the best is not to keep

35:37
them from the consequences of their actions because what you're doing is

35:42
guaranteeing a much larger consequence in the future sure like it's it's a

35:48
guarantee you cannot maintain this forever sure that the the nature of addiction or dependency is that it is

35:55
accumulated right likeing it's uh propping yeah I'm holding up in other

36:01
words I'm propping up and now I have to prop over here and I have to prop over here to where we have a house of cards

36:06
type thing holding an individual up so if one thing happens you know eventually

36:12
the whole thing tumbles down and then what yeah and an addiction specifically

36:17
has diminishing returns so you know the nature of their struggles is only going to grow and so the consequences to the

36:25
growth of that the growing nature of that only become greater and greater so if you don't allow them to experience

36:31
two nights in jail from you know a little little bit of weed or whatever and you bail them out quickly CU you

36:38
want to cover for that and you want to make sure it doesn't ruin their reputation and they can still get into

36:43
the schools and all this stuff you don't understand you don't

36:48
understand that there is potential what you're doing is guaranteeing 30 years in

36:54
prison right and I think that's the empathy comes first sure it does and

37:00
you slowly get to this side of saying listen what you feel like is most loving

37:06
can actually be the most evil and covered in love which is the

37:12
worst kind of evil you know hear and and that's not your intention yeah but that

37:17
is what you know if you believe in a Creator and you believe in the opposite like the Roaring Li lion who's you know

37:25
creeps around seeking to devour destroy like he his best tactic is to take evil

37:33
things and cover them in Beauty sure right the wolf and sheep's clothing whatever and so like if you

37:39
feel like you're being loving but are actually the results of what you're doing is the opposite of love like

37:45
you're guaranteeing a worse you know future for your child and again this all

37:50
these circumstances are also above us like we cannot guarantee the destruction of someone else and we cannot guarantee

37:57
uh the uh the opposite Health yeah uh

38:02
the the the growth yeah growth positive out blessings someone else yeah uh like

38:07
ultimately we believe in a higher power and we believe that that there is uh something between you and them that can

38:13
intercede sure but I'm saying in the context of understanding our

38:18
relationship and our Ro roles in the relationship there's tremendous power there and without that you know God's

38:25
intervening which I've seen him do a lot in a lot and being around recovery for

38:30
so many years I've seen him intervene where if it wasn't for this car accident

38:36
or this person who came out of nowhere or you know and and spoke into their life whatever that thing was that

38:42
intervening Circumstance the natural course of the enabling relationships in their life

38:49
would have put them in prison death whatever right um and that that's part

38:54
of their testimony like I was this close or you know I was on the way to whatever and you know so that's certainly

39:00
possible I just want to add that but without those things it's just important to understand that like your actions as

39:06
an enabler can guarantee the destruction of the person you're trying to predict sure and that's so I'm thinking about

39:14
that in the context of your average parent just your average parent 8 10 12

39:19
year old child um think about that that

39:26
relationship excuse me need some water no I'm good think about that relationship I may a little bit um think

39:33
about that relationship with the couple you

39:38
mentioned and translate that

39:44
back 10 12 years to that 8-year-old 10-year-old child where does that start

39:51
how do what is that what is that yeah yeah impetus if you will and and what as

39:58
parents what is one of those things that you think we need to be mindful of this is where I like to go back to

40:05
your Continuum and that that becomes a a handy demonstration again because not

40:11
every child is the same and not every parent is the same and some parents

40:16
naturally parent in a way that triggers uh isolation like I'm afraid of your

40:23
consternation and therefore I separate from you yeah go to your room until you get it figured out right or just their

40:30
disapproval is so overbearing that you self separate like you shame yeah Shame

40:36
Shame parenting yep shame parenting yep and then the other side obviously it's the oh you're perfect and it's okay you

40:43
missed up and it you can't do anything wrong so there there's a Continuum there um and somewhere in the middle it dep

40:49
you it depends on your kids needs and it depends on how you are as a parent and it's hard to but yeah if you I like uh

40:57
again step cubby as an example of his own struggle

41:03
with as as parents as his kids grew and how one of his kids was a natural

41:09
athlete and one was not and the one that wasn't they would always kind of cover

41:16
for him like oh he's just you know he's a little bit shorter and you know kind of publicly to other people and publicly

41:23
to him kind of try and make them feel better and what they really realized is

41:29
okay we're teaching him something here we're teaching him that he's less than

41:34
sure and that he's you know all these things because he's not the other son he's not the other son yeah and and his

41:42
his capabilities don't align even with some of the other kids that aren't their son you know it's just like clearly he's

41:48
and so we're teaching him that this is true that you are less than and number two that you have to be covered for you

41:56
know and so he talked a lot about how they had to learn the lessons to let him be who he was and not apologize for it

42:04
and say like you're not as good as your brother that's okay you're you're actually really good at this other thing

42:10
and also if you work really hard you could be better than your brother it's not a it's not a limitation that because

42:16
you're not as good at at the same age as he was it might mean that you work harder and you end up further down the

42:21
road than he does that's up to you you know yeah hard work Trump's natural ability yeah yep yep

42:27
and um but that was just an example that came to mind where um that's like way

42:34
early right like that's like before they're starting to do dysfunctional things but we can start um breeding this

42:42
you know it's breeding grounds for this codependent cycle in the relationship where um they need you as a parent you

42:51
know in unhealthy ways but as a parent mhm it doesn't feel unhealthy at all

42:58
like this is what parents do you know you cover you protect you you do all these things the problem is um it's not

43:07
always healthy and there does come a time where where you would cover you

43:13
don't anymore and learning that is supremely difficult and I I think that's

43:18
the work to be done is figuring that out and I mean I can speak from even from my own experience like my oldest is 15 mhm

43:27
and you know if she doesn't want to do the thing we think she should do um it's been our course of action generally to

43:35
do one of two things either force her to do it and say you have to do it because you're a daughter and this is this is

43:40
what you're going to do or not force her to do it and shame her

43:46
for and kind of say like okay we're not going to make you do it but we're disappointed that you're not willing to

43:52
obey and do this and and do the thing you know yeah and I think

43:57
um I'm slowly trying to learn to how to do it differently and I don't know what

44:03
the right path is but I feel like the next course is essentially to let her do it and make her clear what I feel about

44:10
it but you're your own person and you you need to make your own choices and experience the consequences of those

44:16
choices one of those consequences is that I will be disappointed that you're not doing what I want you to do sure and

44:23
that can come with a you know a chain consequences where because you didn't do

44:29
the thing I wanted you to do well if you're not willing to you know obey in a

44:34
sense this thing then why would I let you do this other thing right like so there's there's ongoing consequences

44:41
that come with your choices but ultimately your choices are your own and you're going to experience those

44:47
consequences you know and differentiation I guess I'm probably

44:52
destroying that term but like yeah your your choices are your own and your consequences your own and my CH my

44:58
relationship to you is also distinct in that I will re you know how I respond to

45:03
you is on my side and I might be disappointed or I might have consequences in the future for this or

45:09
whatever but sure it's you know I don't know if that well I like you're I like you're used to the word um consequences

45:16
um and I think it's important to be able to delineate there's two types of consequences there's natural and

45:23
logical okay so logical are the ones that I develop out of a sense of

45:29
discipline okay if you don't do this this will happen okay if you don't clean

45:35
your room you don't get to go to your friends on Friday night when you say logical the way sorry in other words

45:42
it's a it's a thought up it's Aur manufactured yeah natural and

45:48
manufactured no not the same natural natural natural manufactured is my

45:54
version of what you said logical yep it's the the created and natural and

45:59
natural are the things that happen naturally if I don't you know

46:05
realistically if I don't pay my taxes I may lose my home if I continue to drive

46:10
at a certain rate of speed you know over the over the speed limit I'm going to

46:16
get a ticket it's a natural consequence for continually doing something and I think you what the other part that

46:23
broughts brings to mind is sometimes I think when I'm working with families in

46:28
that Dynamic you talk about I'm not sure or it seems as if um

46:35
parents in that situation um don't necessarily stop to

46:41
think about there will come a day when they can no longer do what they are

46:46
doing yeah and I think that makes a difference too to recognize okay in that process of propping up in that process

46:54
of you know you you know supporting what happens when you pass away mhm who's

47:01
going to do that role and isn't it better now for you to start even though it's difficult isn't it better for you

47:07
to start this process while you're still able and available and you know yeah you

47:15
can be a part of it versus just basically letting this whole house yeah house of cards fall down and then cuz

47:22
you're unable to eat your child is just like you're saying far worse yeah than they would have been before I also think

47:29
too that the dynamic of that uh that relational Dynamic the codependent

47:34
cycle is such that it causes a narrowing of focus so it is

47:42
almost impossible to think those thoughts sure out you know it's like you're just in the cycle you're just you

47:48
need somebody else it's the ping pong right like okay now I have to solve for this problem ding it's back okay now I

47:53
have to Sol and it's like you're just thinking about the next problem in front of me you and it's very difficult I

47:58
think to zoom all the way out without yeah without that help that helpful

48:03
perspective to say let's pause for a second and then that's again counseling is so important um you know objective

48:10
perspectives you know um C recovery we talk a lot about that and kind of um the

48:15
open share environment is where when someone across the room is talking about their own woes and their own family it's

48:21
able to do the same thing it's it it allows me to unlock something in my brain that goes oh this is me and allows

48:28
you to kind of think outside of you know yourself or whatever so I think having those inputs in your life are very very

48:35
important if you're stuck in that dysfunctional cycle sure because asking you to just think bigger you know long

48:42
term is really really difficult because you're just trying to solve the next problem you know both sides of that

48:49
dysfunction right yeah and I like the analogy you used with um your your

48:54
friend there Stephen cvy as far as his kids um because I think a lot of what happens

49:00
um we we grew up with a certain parenting style so therefore our

49:06
tendency is to use that parenting Style with our kids yeah and unfortunately you know we we know that shame-based

49:13
parenting you know par parents who use shame-based parenting their children

49:20
have a higher rate of addiction you know and and you know addictive behaviors

49:27
then because there's this ability it it it tends to lend towards this isolation

49:33
and secrecy I'm going apart because I don't I'm doing things in secret or

49:39
around you because I don't want to have to deal with that shame that I hear that

49:44
I don't measure up and it's like you know so often we have to be able to separate the identity from the action

49:52
yeah because so often you know the action the action as if I'm from my

49:58
parenting Dynamic your action is a reflection upon my identity as a parent

50:04
yes and that's a tough thing you know that's where the spaghetti is a real thing cuz it's like I can't see how your

50:11
reputation is different than mine yes and that's that again that comes right back to what I was saying about Mia like

50:17
that's I'm having that hard thing right now like if she doesn't go do the thing we want her to do that will reflect

50:24
badly on me like I'm a bad parent it doesn't you know whatever and I'm like you know what whether it does or doesn't by some

50:32
person's perception sure isn't true like and that doesn't make me a good parent I'm just saying like their perception of

50:40
oh I'm surprised they didn't make you know their kids's not here or whatever whatever that thing is or oh you know

50:47
their kid isn't so perfect cuz they won't do this thing that or whatever and

50:53
I fear that you know consternation or whatever and you know what I have to learn to be like that that's she's not a

51:01
reflection of me completely she is in some sense I guess that's where it gets fuzzy as parents right like there is a

51:07
Contin a great a a gradiation of they're completely reflections of me when

51:14
they're a baby and then slowly it should become less and less and they become their own person on the other side right

51:21
like they're they're completely distinct from me and I accept that they accept that everyone round accepts that so

51:27
there's the two ends and somewhere in the middle you're growing in that yeah that

51:33
differentiation I'm going to keep using that word it's probably not how you would but yeah it's difficult but

51:39
there's a there's a graph basically that describes what you're saying and if you think about it like make the L with your

51:46
your hand and in the lower lower what would be my left corner okay is going to

51:52
be at the bottom at the bottom going across at the what's that X X and Y

51:58
right y the top Yeah x axis is right yep so horizontal is going to be age so

52:05
start that out at zero and then you go up okay but on the y axis going up is

52:11
going to be responsibility yeah so a parent for a child at zero is going to start out at

52:18
that bottom with 100% responsibility yeah you and that there's two dots one is the parent one is the

52:24
child well it it's it's the same graph so as the as the child Ages which is

52:30
which is going to happen it's the it's the X as they age okay you want to equip

52:38
them to where your responsibility goes down right and there's goes up and there

52:45
as they age they take on more responsibility so if I have a 5-year-old

52:50
and I'm still 100% responsible for them I'm not giving them age appropriate chor or things like that you

52:58
know that's going to likely continue on in ways that are unhealthy into 10 12 15

53:06
55 you know that kind of thing to where ultimately around you know at a certain

53:13
point I want them to be 50/50 you know I want you know around 18 you know or or

53:19
even less than that so that I think that's a helpful visual at times it's like how am I equipping my child to

53:27
eventually take responsibility for all of their own behavior mhm and operate in

53:33
a healthy autonomy and I think you know that's that that's kind of what you were describing you know in that process of

53:41
as you know we age and responsibility and I and from that perspective I realize it's going to have to be for you

53:47
know not not necessarily all today but I'm recognizing I think that's where boundaries come into play yes and I

53:54
think I even had a conversation with li about this the other day I think so often we want to look for

54:00
formulas okay this and this equals this save this well for another time yeah I

54:08
feel fair enough well I just feel like we reached a really good uh natural book

54:14
end to this because I do think this is a good uh conversation to extend to

54:19
multiple things and yeah um I think talking about we we've T we've covered Co codependency pretty well find some

54:27
examples and Def find some terminology to where I think the natural next

54:32
progression would be talking about boundaries and if it is a Cliff Hanger that's right what's a boundary folks it's a

54:41
cliff with one end kned off which is funny cuz sometimes that's how people create boundaries as they create a cliff

54:48
or sure cut offs we'll get to that get to that yeah cuz I think there's a

54:53
there's a bajillion ways to do boundaries and it's Continuum of healthy to unhealthy right sure well I think

55:00
it's that middle ground again between two extremes but yes that's what I mean but there's a Continuum of how you can

55:06
do a boundary that is good you know or bad over here and bad over here exactly

55:12
yeah you get so yeah well thanks for sharing Justin I appreciate the uh I now

55:17
I am now I'm going have a little better Insight of where the topic comes from this is this has been something you've been wrestling with yes in uh multiple

55:26
in multiple ways so yeah appreciate you uh bringing some of that experience to the uh microphone for the rest of us to

55:32
benefit from yeah I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation next time which will be uh for us recorded in two

55:40
weeks because next week we're do an interview special guest yeah it's been

55:46
it's been a minute since we have a guest so we're excited about doing that again yeah um maybe y'all could just say a

55:52
little prayer that we don't have any technical difficulties for once yeah well you know that's part of growth

55:58
we learned from them it is yeah yeah I'm excited this will be our first guest with our new system equipment and and

56:05
setup um so we'll have to yeah well all right folks this is how we see

56:12
it I just saluted Mark you couldn't see that but okay bye I saluted

56:19
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