Mark:

If a person is speaking with headphones on in front of a microphone, can they be heard? If someone does not have their earbuds in. That’s like the tree falling in the forest. Yes, exactly. You know.

Justin:

This episode is sponsored by Quiet Time Kombucha.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

This is This is Mark’s personal brand. He just started one minute ago.

Mark:

Exactly. One minute, precisely. Yeah.

Justin:

So what is quiet time kombucha?

Mark:

Well it’s a it’s a complex blend of raspberry and ginger root that has a effervescent uh flavor that just livens the taste buds for the morning and just quickens the rest of the body throughout the day.

Justin:

And what is what it how and does it enhance your quiet time as well.

Mark:

Um, it’s part of it actually uh increases reflection ability.

Justin:

Oh very nice Very nice. I’ve actually had some of this quiet time kombucha. But it’s refreshing. Pre-branded.

Mark:

Yes, pre-branded.

Justin:

And it was it was very good.

Mark:

I enjoyed it. Yeah. Just our own little blend there.

Justin:

Yeah, so if you’d like to buy a 12-pack, that would be $4. 99 a bottle.

Mark:

I need to know ahead of time. I know only make six six bottles a week. So twelve bottles we’d have to uh yeah, ramp up production

Justin:

We probably won’t be able to meet demands.

Mark:

Like say you’ll be disappointed in the production value Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt, and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

Uh so Mark, I’m dandy today. How are you?

Mark:

I am very well and I’m glad you’re dandy, Justin. I’m glad you remembered. You did. You did.

Justin:

Really justize this.

Mark:

That’s all right. We’re gonna have a hashtag dandy.

Justin:

That’s right. That’s the goal. And then Quiet Time Kombucha. There you get another hashtag.

Mark:

Brought to you by Quiet Time Kombucha

Justin:

So now whenever you have a bring a really different voice for that.

Mark:

Brought to you by Quiet Time Kabucha.

Justin:

Good sound effect.

Mark:

That’s okay.

Justin:

We don’t have a good one for that.

Mark:

We’ll work on it

Justin:

We’ll work shop it.

Mark:

Maybe not more today, but like say.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s good to see ya. It’s good to see you. And I’m glad you’re dandy.

Justin:

Yeah, me too.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

What’s your thoughts for the day?

Justin:

My thoughts for today.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’re gonna talk a little bit about Mm. A little bit about a lot.

Mark:

Oh no.

Justin:

Okay. Um Yeah, so there’s this concept of what we call codependency in the recovery world. I want to talk a little bit about that.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Drop my pen.

Mark:

That’s alright. Yes, sir.

Justin:

Yeah, I’m back.

Mark:

He’s back.

Justin:

Did you hear the s 3D surround sound as I came to my mic?

Mark:

Ooh, I I didn’t notice it, but I noticed it more as you

Justin:

Demonstrated.

Mark:

Demonstrated what 3D surrounds.

Justin:

Back to the topic. I’m sorry.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s all good.

Justin:

Very distracted this morning.

Mark:

So I’m

Justin:

I didn’t have my quiet time.

Mark:

I’m thinking about codependence in recovery, you said Is that what you guessed?

Justin:

Okay, so the reason I say that is because I don’t actu I’ve been so immersed in the recovery world for so long. I don’t actually know how to it touches in the rest of the world, like, you know, s psychiatry and that kind of thing. And if the definitions over there are similar But before I want to hear the rest of your thought there you say, I just wanna

Mark:

it was just a question.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. Well I wanna he I wanna hear more of that question. No, um and then the other kind of edges of this topic would be enabling um as well as boundaries. So these are all kind of in a similar bucket of Sure. Topics that touch on each other.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, so we anticipate that this may bleed into a second episode. Hey, maybe even a third. Yeah. But an ongoing conversation about um all of these things. So Back to you, Mark.

Mark:

No, that’s interesting. It’s interesting that uh and I and I fr this is my perspective here again.

Justin:

We don’t we don’t want to hear how you see it. Oh don’t wait.

Mark:

Well I think I think in my from what I hear, you know Um it can sound these these names, these labels can sound more complicated than they really are.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Because we have a lot of

Justin:

Especially codependency.

Mark:

Codependency.

Justin:

That’s like such an amorphous blob of a term. And recovery.

Mark:

And in mesh excuse me. No, I’m gonna add another word.

Justin:

Oh no.

Mark:

Enabling. Okay. But here’s here’s it I know we all we routinely come back to continuums.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Okay. But I think I think they’re helpful.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. So I’m gonna I’m gonna start off with a continuum that’s gonna help us define this.

Justin:

Awesome.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

He’s got his hands in the right. Right and left. Beginning the continuum.

Mark:

I got my book and hands. Okay. Now picture in my right hand, this book, the my right bookend. Okay That’s going to be a term that I’m going to call enmeshed.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Okay. And for the sake of my left hand, I’m going to just go to there. And that’s going to be isolation Okay. So enmeshed, if we stop and think about that, it’s gonna look very Like very much like a plate of spaghetti. Okay.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Because you know, or put your fingers together, intertwine your fingers. That’s a that’s enmeshed.

Justin:

I like the spaghetti. I’m gonna I’m gonna stick to spaghetti.

Mark:

Well, it’s a good analogy because you I think you used the word that uh the squishy. You know, some of these terms are squishy. It’s it is like that plate of spaghetti. You just push against it and it’s like It moves, but yet everything moves all at the same time. You push a little bit here, it just kind of moves and absorbs and

Justin:

it’s hard to know where one starts, one ends.

Mark:

Exactly. So from that perspective, okay, I’m see I’m gonna look at that word enmeshed, okay And I think it fits for your um addictions, that kind of thing. Enmeshed is to the point of my problems are your problems and your problems are my problems. They’re again very much connected with codependency. You know, your happiness, my happiness is dependent upon your happiness. You know, th those kind of things to where there’s there’s very limited boundaries. Okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

On the other end, of course, is isolation.

Justin:

you know, dry noodle that fell on the floor and in the corner.

Mark:

All by itself. It’s the one that got thrown to the wall to see if it stuck and it fell to the floor and it stayed right there. Okay. It’s no longer it’s just all dried up and it and it’s a good analogy for people who tend to live in isolation. Okay. Just yeah, because there

Justin:

didn’t stick.

Mark:

There’s there’s little connection. There’s little ability to uh replenish myself.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so I tend to so these are the the ends, if you will.

Justin:

Those are the book ends. The right hand and the left hand.

Mark:

And and I think part of that is the process of So it go ahead.

Justin:

Sorry.

Mark:

But isolation I want to recognize is okay, I’m not connected to anybody So, you know.

Justin:

You switch hands on me.

Mark:

Yep, I did. I went to left because that was the spaghetti that fell to the floor, okay? Yeah. And it’s all dried up.

Justin:

And that’s the isolation.

Mark:

That’s the isolation. That’s the person who, you know, is the rock, is the island. You know, they don’t feel this. They they’ve just They’ve just had enough of it all and they want to just go. It’s the woman at the well.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Living in isolation, just going, you know, to the well at the middle of the day because she’s drank from this well, this well, that well, and it’s all been dry. So I’m just living apart from everyone

Justin:

And that can also start uh that can pr pre proceed from a life of that nature or it can proceed from Um like uh you we talking about investment styles. Like a certain upbringing can just cause you to be that way from the very beginning, is that right?

Mark:

Sure. Isolated and norm normally it comes out of a a frustration or hurts. Okay. You know, those kind of things. It’s like I’ve had enough, you know, or I’ve just I’ve just been um I think of, you know, people who tend to avoid emotion because they just kind of grew up with emotions being bad. So I just kind of go to that. Y your IT guy, but you know, there th that would be a good example of somebody who just says, Okay, I want to kind of go to my own little world. I want to work. Off I mean I want to work, you know, remote. I want to just spend my days apart from people because people just frustrate me That kind of

Justin:

you think we do, Mark?

Mark:

Uh no, but is uh it’s just one of those things. I I know you have a desire to spend probably more time with people than apart from people, but your job Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Is the I’m actually with people all day.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah, if you call it that Tell yourself that, Justin. Yeah.

Justin:

What was that the social media episode where he talked about? Yeah.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

This is a callback, folks.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um I really like the idea of the continuum uh as usual because it it very much says The opposite of the thing that’s bad is not always good. Right? Like if you go the other fly to the other side, sure. Then that’s not necessarily good, which happens to be a great segue in terms of um some of the things I I’ve been thinking about with codependency.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I think before we

Mark:

And boundaries. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yeah. Yes. Go ahead. Yeah. Uh I guess that’s yeah, I was just thinking that through. Yeah, so um In codependent f before we get there. Sure. Because I I want to go there. I’m codabenzene boundary.

Mark:

You lead the way I follow them I’m making notes, folks.

Justin:

On his non real notebook.

Mark:

Go ahead. Sorry.

Justin:

Uh it is a digital tablet. And that’s why he says it’s not real. I just just to catch everyone up. Yeah. I think we need to define codependency. At least try. Okay. Um so Um, I I wanna hear I want to hear yours first.

Mark:

I would I would say okay. Sorry,

Justin:

put your hands.

Mark:

No, it’s all good. It’s all good. Um

Justin:

oh pause.

Mark:

Pause.

Justin:

I am so squirrely this morning. I’m sorry.

Mark:

I should have brought a little kombucha for you.

Justin:

Maybe I had too much kombucha. Oh maybe. pause because I wanted to ask you is there a you’ve been in the celebrate recovery world for a little while now you’ve experienced what kind of our version of what go dependency is I think sure Is is it pretty much the same in psychiatry? Is that a th a real thing over there?

Mark:

I’d have to know your definition to compare it to my definition. I’m gonna I’m gonna basically uh I’ll make another continuum for the sake of codependence. What I would call enmeshed is gonna be codependent if I’m in my right hand. If I’m yep, I’m in my right hand again. On my left hand, okay, is independent.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

The dried up noodle.

Mark:

So it’s the dried up noodle. And in the middle, okay, is going to be interdependent.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I can learn to have relationship. I can be in relationship, and yet I know where you start and I stop. en meshed or codependent don’t know where that line is. So it’s too mingled together. There’s limited boundaries. So m your happiness is dependent upon my happiness. And vice versa. That’s codependent to where interdependence is the ability to go to work and be you know, myself and, you know, have autonomy, if you will, you know, from my wife and from other people who are close to me, but yet I come back I don’t have to live in that isolation. I don’t have to live that completely independent life, the whole John Wayne pull pick yourself up by your bootstraps type stuff. And I can have this interdependence that says, okay, I have friends, I have supports, I have my family, and we support one another, and yet If you get in trouble, or if you do something that, you know, gets you in trouble, that’s not necessarily my problem

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m willing to be a support. We can work through some of the details, but ultimately you got in trouble and now you’re experiencing consequences. And it’s not my job to make those consequences go away for you.

Justin:

Yeah, and we’ll we’ll it’ll be great to move into some examples too, um, at some point. Um but as you talk about inner you know, and and as far as like what does this look like in families or relationships, but Um before that you you know when you use the term interdependence, like Stephen Covey talks a lot about this concept of um these concepts in the seven habits for highly effective people when he talks about um moving from in independence to interdependence and basically how Dependence is the first state we arrive on in this planet, right? Like we are completely dependent on our caretakers. We are unable to whatever And the goal is to move to independence to be able to you know, get on your bike and ride across town and buy yourself a soda, you know. Yeah. I don’t know if they kids do that these days. You know, that kind of thing. And then but that’s not the ultimate. The ultimate is to move into interdependence. And then he would say interdependence is where his buzzword synergy comes in. That’s where you’re able to do something that’s more than the sum of the parts. So you plus me, you know, one plus one equals two and he was he’s saying when you put two people together, um, there’s an opportunity for synergy. Synergy is a multiplicative effect.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh where U plus B equals, you know, a podcast, right? Where m hopefully multiple people are impacted as a result of our, you know, multiplied efforts here. Yeah. That kind of thing. Synergy, right? So But that’s not possible without that interdependent nature. And I would argue on the codependent side, when you’ve become gone past interdependence where you’re in complete what do you call it? Enmeshed. Um it’s becomes almost impossible for synergy as well, where sure you know the our parts together inc create something That’s greater than the sum of the parts. Instead, it’s more likely that they start rubbing against and like the sum of the parts is less than the sum of all the

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Single, you know, the parts. Um and I think that’s that’s another good um potential way to look at it and see signs of codependencies, hey when he and I are together, we don’t create a better th we we end up worse than when we’re apart. You know, and that’s a that can be a good sign of our is there some codependence or in measurement.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Your thoughts.

Mark:

No, it’s I’m I’m in agreement with all that. And I and I like, you know, I appreciate the fact that you brought um Dependence in. And I think, you know, in a lot of cases, when we put co in front of that word, it it’s just it’s just adding two, it’s just two people that are dependent on one another. You know, it’s two people that have found each other. Yeah. And, you know, they need someone to depend upon.

Justin:

Yeah. I’ve heard I’ve heard newcomers to the recovery world go, oh yeah, me and my wife we’re codependent, you know. In and they describe it almost in a loving way, like we can’t live without each other. And you’re like I don’t think you quite understand what codependence is, because that’s you know, that’s not that’s not a sign of it, right? Like

Mark:

No no and and I think that’s and I think in our culture, okay Uh codependence can seem very romantic.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, like the Bonnie and Clyde ride ride or die.

Mark:

Yeah, I can’t down together. I can’t live without you.

Justin:

Sure. Undying love. Like when you are away, I’m pining. I can’t do life without you. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

When we look at healthy relationship, we can recognize, okay, I enjoy life with you, but I can live without you. That’s that ability to go be interdependent in such a way that says, okay, yeah. I don’t when you go to work, I know you’re going to work and I’m not concerned about that you’re someplace else because you have demonstrated that that’s what’s happening. Now I may have had people in the past you know, who have cheated on me or something along that line. So yeah, I I have to call that into question. But that’s where, you know, I’m starting to create these boundaries around what people have done to me in my previous life. versus not previous life, but you know, early on in life in my past history, you know, to this relationship And allowing and that’s where and yeah, that’s where my hands come up because I’m starting to define some of those boundaries and I’m pulling them in from the extremes of right and left. a little more to, you know, where my shoulders are. Mm-hmm. And that’s where you’re able to, you know, find that interdependence That says, okay, yeah, I l I enjoy being with you. And yet, if we go away on vacation, seven days is probably about as long as we want to be able to, you know, be together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because we’re gonna be longing to have some independence again where You do your things and I do my things. And that recharges us in such a way that we come back together better to be able to be interdependent because I’m telling you about my day and you’re telling me about what you experience. And that’s that synergy that basically the end the the energy is able to flow from that emotional intelligence that says, hey, this is part of who I am. Yeah. And I want you to know about it. Yeah. And what are your thoughts?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

So when when a when a couple isn’t able to have that because there’s codependence, then it then it’s well what’d you do that for? Why’d you do that? Really? You know, and it and it takes on a negative tone versus a healthy tone that says, wow, tell me more.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because there’s a I would I would l I would call that there’s a insecurity, you know, that is that is fostering that dependence. Because, you know, I don’t know who I am without you. And that makes it and that makes it tough just to be me.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

So that that’s kinda and I and I think um you were talking about examples and I would say um alcoholic families are a great example of enmeshed Because of course they have family secrets. I you know, we’ve done uh uh in the How We Love Stuff, you know, I’ve had couples, you know, or um, yeah, couples. who have talked about their childhood and they uh the term uh public faces yeah comes up. You know, that that process of who we are outside the home.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know and recognizing, well, you can’t tell anybody about this. You know, that’s that’s enmeshed because at that point, m you know, my alcoholism is affecting my children in such a way that they can’t say what’s really going on. So my problem has suddenly become my child’s problem is my wife’s problem. That’s where that definition, you know, your problems are my problems and my problems are your problems.

Justin:

So even before we get to the examples, I’d like to dr uh explain the difference between a the codependent and the W why don’t we have a word for the other side of that? That’s always bothered me. The other side? We in recovery we say the addict. We say the codependent and the addict. But you know, uh that’s obviously very um Microscopic, of course, codependency exists outside of addiction, right? Like other dysfunction. So uh often so okay. So often when we hear codependency and we’re not aware of kind of this is why we’re doing this because I’m sure a lot of people aren’t sure privy to what that idea is. you think it’s a two s two sides of of the coin. So we or basically it’s it’s two people in the same situation. They’re samely codependent. Yep. But in my experience and my understanding, they’re not doing the same things to each other codependently. It is there is the codependent, the side that is what we call codependent. And then there’s the addict, okay? So I’m gonna define those two sides, and then you can let me know if that uh uh jives with your understanding of what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna need you to do that. Yes. So the codependent side is essentially the the side that is covering. That is uh can’t figure out how to do life without making sure you’re okay. Like and so they do a lot of covering, they do a lot of enabling that in order to feel okay about themselves, they have to feel okay about you. In order to feel okay about you, they have to cover for your transgressions, whatever they are. In the i in an addict’s case it’s you know, you know, covering for their drinking or sometimes even going to the store to get them a drink because they know that’ll calm them down and that ‘ll save face for certain things or whatever. or um just being afraid of that person and therefore continuing those cycles out of fear. But it’s kind of that side of the coverer. Okay.

Mark:

Yep. I gotcha.

Justin:

Where the other side is the coveree, that’s the one that’s kind of the bowl in the China shop not realizing the damage that they’re doing and or being you know, also being enabled to continue this behavior because it’s always covered and it’s always handled and taken care of and So they can continue in that behavior. And so you can picture an alcoholic and his wife or you can picture, you know, a drug addict and his parents You know, and that that’s a common uh dynamic where the parents are kind of trying to cover for the in the it’s all in good in the right uh intentions and and all that. This isn’t about that. It’s just drawing the lines Um where the the the child is the addict and they’re just continually slightly getting away with it, right? Like one way or another because it’s covered. Yeah. Yeah yes.

Mark:

I mean over time.

Justin:

Yes, yes. I yeah, I say slightly and what I mean by that is maybe completely, but not for a lifetime. They are gonna experience significant pains and what happens when you hold back the pains. is that you are guaranteeing a much bigger pain at some point.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think that’s the p that’s that’s where you know, codependence becomes nefarious, like evil.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But what you’re actually doing is preventing the proper things happening at the right scale now.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, but anyway, so that that’s kind of where I would draw the lines. That’s kind of the two sides. No, I’d say that’s what I’d like to hear your

Mark:

And it I’ll be honest with you, that’s why I needed you to define. Um I would recognize that from my perspective initially, till we started talking a little more, I would see that as still codependent because each person has a role Mm-hmm. So, you know, that that cycle becomes codependent because what I I believe on the other side, on the the what you would label the codependent, okay, yes, they’re the caretaker. But the addict needs someone to take care of them. So in that process, what the what the caretaker is saying is I don’t think you can take care of yourself.

Justin:

Correct.

Mark:

So the the the addict would say, you’re right, I need you.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Until you try to create boundaries. Then I don’t need you. I may have to find somebody else that’s gonna replace you.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Or

Justin:

or I’m left to deal with the consequences. And then health might happen. Exactly.

Mark:

And s and I that’s where, yeah

Justin:

So it sounds like

Mark:

Go ahead. I I’m gonna view that as a cyclical dynamic.

Justin:

So you’re seeing codependency as this basically this cloud above relationships. Yep. And it’s kind of the covering.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I think that that’s makes a lot of sense because again, in my much more zeroed in understanding of it in in recovery, I feel like No one’s ever been that clear about what go to Venice is because we’re always describing the parents in the hook Alcoholics White. We’re we’re describing that enabling side when we talk about codependency in the recovery world. And I feel like that’s where it gets confusing because I do uh that it makes a lot of sense where codependency is kind of the relational description of the relational relational dysfunction uh and what w it is really true is that we actually need better definitions. for both sides of that is what I think.

Mark:

And I’m and I’m thinking about even the the caretaker, if you will, we we could say the addict. You know, but really, from my perspective, the caretaker is addicted to taking care.

Justin:

Yeah, so yeah, right. And recovery we we very often say the uh you know, both sid uh how d how do they say it? Both sides are s d the same level of sick.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

It’s just that the sickness bears out differently. Right. So yes.

Mark:

And that and that’s where, you know, healthy me, healthy us type stuff comes into play. that two two healthy individuals who marry or you know c have a relationship, you know, have a healthy relationship but you know to the degree that I have to have someone to take care of. I need a project so I date projects or you know then I’m automatically setting myself up to a certain degree for failure because I need somebody that has major issues to fix so that I feel better about myself being able to fix someone else.

Justin:

Yep. Yeah.

Mark:

So I mean that and I pr but don’t get me wrong, I appreciate your definition in that as far as you know the addict and you know the codependent because I think you know it is, but I see it as very cyclical.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

in the in the sense of each part each person has a role and and here again I’m not an addictions counselor you know licensed that the from that perspective But my uh my supervisor was.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

And you know, and she very much, and I think it’s an analogous to the um to the pain that you mentioned earlier, you know, to be a good addictions therapist, you have to, she what she would refer to, she has you have to be able to light fires under people. You know, because it is about creating that pain or, you know, that uh recognizing the cost-benefit type dynamic that helps people recognize their need for change. And I think, you know, to and that that’s what makes codependency so difficult is because neither one of us want to endure the pain that it takes to create change.

Justin:

Right. Both sides.

Mark:

Both sides. Right. Yes. Because I can’t deal with your anger long enough for the addict to go without whatever I you know he needs. Yep. And that kind of thing.

Justin:

And often a big uh enemy to change is fear, right? Like fear fear of the unknown or fear yeah, j yeah, just fear. So that can often be a blocker as well. Yeah, so codepend I’ve let’s for for the sake of the rest of discussion, let’s just say codependency is the relational dynamic that s covers both.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then as far as terms go, we’re gonna call this side the codependent

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Okay. And decide the addict.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But you can swap those out for someone who’s not an addict, but let’s just use those terms because I think That’s okay.

Mark:

I’m I’m I’m b I’m g able to go with that.

Justin:

Sure. Unless you have a better term

Mark:

No, no, I’m good with that.

Justin:

I can say this side is a strawberry.

Mark:

That’s gonna be a little confusing, I’m afraid. Sounds more sounds more like fruit punch.

Justin:

Uh and this is not a fruity situation. So

Mark:

not at all.

Justin:

You’re you’re pointing.

Mark:

No, no, that’s a good Did I point?

Justin:

Like you were gonna say some.

Mark:

No, no. I appreciate I appreciate the need for that definition.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, so we can proceed forward. So Um because the examples for instance if we’re gonna give some examples and y you you know we already started in on some, but it’d be good to kinda say the sides of that. But Um again I know um the parental relationship to an addict is a good example of that where the codependent side would be the parents and the addict side would be the child.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um I’ve had a lot of discussions with about that specific thing over the many, many years. And one thing I’ve found is that it’s nearly impossible to It’s just so hard to tell parents to do tough love because you know what you’re asking them. You you know, you know you see it in their eyes, you see it in their reactions, you see it in their defensiveness. You’re asking me to take a knife and stab it into my child’s chest. That’s what you’re asking me to do. You know what I’m saying?

Mark:

That can be the way they see it Yes, very much so.

Justin:

This is what you’re asking me to do.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Yeah, on on your side, you’re like that’s what they’re seeing, whatever, and I’m on our side is easy. But at the same time until we can there’s no way they’re gonna take uh any kind of counseling until you can kind of see how extreme it is what you’re asking them to do from their perspective. And then and then th do the work. to uh I guess dismantle

Mark:

sure

Justin:

um those perceptions. But in some cases it’s alm I A recent conversation is about a child with um mental health struggles. And in that case some of the boundaries that I I feel like would be healthy in that relationship, I can see how they potentially could be that knife stabbing the child you know, sure. If that child receives a boundary and therefore does something to hurt himself, you know How do you not as a parent perceive it as I just took a knife and stabbed it in my child’s chest? You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So that’s where and and The we’re not that far removed from an addict where they’re saying, Y I know if I stop paying for a school He’s gonna just slip into this crowd. He’s gonna get out of all the good influences he has. And you’re so basic and and then in that case like the m the mortality rate of the type of environment I see him slipping into is very high. You might as well ask me to stick a n a knife in his chest.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? So I don’t think it’s that far off to f say that.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

You know, and I think I think it’s important to understand how difficult of an ask it can be in certain circ in a lot of circumstances. And I think that’s important for for counselors, I think it’s important also for just friends. You know, like people hopefully listening to this podcast going, I know someone like that and I think they’re stupid for paying for their kids’ school or whatever that situation is And it’s like, yeah, but you need to understand what’s at stake here.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Especially in their mind.

Mark:

And I think and I think so often it doesn’t matter what other people think. I think, you know, we get caught up in that at times. Um, but yeah, what would what would you say to that parent who’s facing that? knife thrust type.

Justin:

I mean the first thing that I say is, holy crap, I see how hard this is. You know what I mean? I guess that’s kind of the point I’m making. Like We can’t just hand wave it away and say, Well, trust us, this is better for your child. And you know, the stuff we were saying earlier, like He that takes time to get to those points of saying, listen, what you’re doing now is actually less loving. What you’re doing now you perceive as the most loving thing. I’m I’m giving of myself in so many ways that hurt me but benefit my child. That is the very definition of love. But I will often come back to say, like, what is love? Love is doing is wanting the best for someone and doing what I can to pr produce that the best. And in this case, the best is not to keep them from the consequences of their actions. Because what you’re doing is guaranteeing a much larger consequence in the future.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Like It’s it’s a guarantee. You cannot maintain this forever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It’s propping. It’s uh propping.

Mark:

Yeah, I’m holding up. In other words, I’m propping up and now I have to prop over here and I have to prop over here to where we have a house of cards type thing holding an individual up. So if one thing happens you know, eventually the whole thing tumbles down and then what?

Justin:

Yeah. And an an addiction specifically has diminishing returns. So you know, the nature of their struggles is only gonna grow and so the consequences to the growth of that that the the growing nature of that only become gr greater and greater. So if you don’t allow them to experience two nights in jail from, you know, a little bit of weed or whatever And you bail them out quickly because you want to cover for that and you want to make sure it doesn’t ruin their reputation and they can still get into schools and all this stuff.

Mark:

You don’t understand.

Justin:

You don’t understand. that there is potential what you’re doing is guaranteeing thirty years in prison.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

And I think that’s The empathy comes first.

Mark:

Sure it does.

Justin:

And you slowly get to this side of saying, listen, what you feel like is most loving can actually be the most evil. And covered in love, and which is the worst kind of evil. And and it’s not your intention.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But that is what you know, if you believe in a creator and you believe in the opposite, like uh the roaring live lion who’s you know, uh

Mark:

creeps around look

Justin:

seeking to devour and destroy, like he his best tactic is to take evil things and cover them in beauty.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? The wolf in sheep’s clothing. Whatever. And so like if you feel like you’re being loving but are actually the results of what you’re doing is the opposite of love. Like you’re guaranteeing a worse, you know, future for your child. And again, this the all these circumstances are also above us. Like we cannot guarantee the destruction of someone else and we cannot guarantee Uh the uh the opposite.

Mark:

Health.

Justin:

Sh yeah. Uh the the the growth yeah.

Mark:

Growth. Positive out.

Justin:

Blessings Sure. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh like ultimately we believe in a higher power and we believe that that there is uh something between you and them that can intercede.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I’m saying in the context of understanding our relationship and our ro roles in the relationship, there’s tremendous power there. And without that you know, God’s intervening which I’ve seen him do a lot in a lot in in being around recovery for so many years. I’ve seen him intervene where if it wasn’t for this car accident or this person who came out of nowhere or, you know, and and spoke into their life, whatever that thing was, that intervening circumstance. the natural course of the enabling relationships in their life would have put them in prison, death, whatever, right? Um and that that’s part of their testimony, like I was this close or, you know, I was on the way to whatever and, you know. So that’s certainly possible. I just want to add that. But without those things, it’s just important to understand that like your actions as an enabler cannot guarantee the destruction of the person you’re trying to protect.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s

Mark:

So I’m thinking about that in the context of your average parent, just your average parent, eight, ten, twelve-year-old child. Um think about that that relationship. Excuse me.

Justin:

Need some water?

Mark:

No, I’m good. Think about that relationship. I mean a little bit. Um think about that relationship with the couple you mention and translate that back ten, twelve years to that eight-year-old, ten-year-old child. Where does that start? How do what is that what is that?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Impetus, if you will. And and what as parents, what is one of those things that you think we need to be mindful of?

Justin:

This is where I like to go back to your continuum and that that becomes a ha a handy demonstration again because not every child is the same and not every parent is the same

Mark:

and sure.

Justin:

S parents naturally parent in a way that triggers uh isolation. Like I’m afraid of your consternation and therefore I separate from you.

Mark:

Yeah. Go to your room until you get it figured out.

Justin:

Right. Or just their disapproval is so overbearing that you self-separate like you

Mark:

Shame.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Shame, shame parenting.

Justin:

Yep. Shame parenting, yep. And then the other side obviously is the Oh, you’re perfect and it’s okay, you messed up and it you can’t do anything wrong, so there’s th there’s a continuum there. Um, and somewhere in the middle it depe it you know it depends on your kids’ needs and it depends on how you are as a parent and it’s hard to but yeah, if you I I like uh again, Stephen Covey as an example of his own struggle with as as parents as his kids grew and how one of his kids was a natural athlete and one was not. And the one that wasn’t, they would always kind of cover for him. Like, oh, he’s just you know, he’s a little bit shorter and you know, kind of publicly to other people and publicly to him, kinda try and make ’em feel better. And what they realize is Okay, we’re teaching him something here. We’re teaching him that he’s less than.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that he’s, you know, all these things.

Mark:

Because he’s not. Right.

Justin:

He’s not the other son yet. Sure. And and his his capabilities don’t align even with some of the other kids that aren’t their son. You know, it’s just like clearly he’s and so we’re teaching him that this is the true that you are less than and number two that you have to be covered for. And so he talked a lot about how they had to learn the lessons to let him be who he was and not apologize for it And say like you’re not as good as your brother, that’s okay. You’re but you’re actually really good at this other thing. And also, if you work really hard You could be better than your brother. It’s not a it’s not a limitation that because you’re not as good at at the same age as he was, it it might mean that you work harder and you end up further down the road than he does. That’s up to you, you know.

Mark:

Yeah. Hard work trumps natural ability.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And um but that was just an example that came to mind where um that’s like w way early, right? Like that’s Like before they’re starting to do dysfunctional things, but we can start um breeding this you know, it’s breeding grounds for this codependent cycle in the relationship where um they need you as a parent you know in unhealthy ways but as a parent it It doesn’t feel unhealthy at all. Like this is what parents do. You know, you cover, you protect, you da-da-da-da, you do all these things. The problem is Um, it’s not always healthy. And there does come a time where where you would cover you don’t anymore. Mm-hmm. And learning that is supremely difficult. And I I think that’s the work to be done is figuring that out and I mean I can speak from even from my own experience like My oldest is fifteen. And, you know, if she doesn’t want to do a thing we think she should do, um it’s It’s been our course of action generally to do one of two things, either force her to do and say, you have to do it because you’re our daughter and this is this is what you’re gonna do. Or not force her to do it and shame her for it. And kind of say like okay, we’re not gonna make you do it, but we’re disappointed that you’re not willing to obey and do this and and do the thing, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think Um I’m slowly trying to learn to f how to do it differently and I don’t know what the right path is, but I feel like the next course is essentially to let her do it and make her clear what I feel about it. But you’re your own person and you you need to make your own choices and experience the concept. One of those consequences is that I will be disappointed that you’re not doing what I want you to do.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that can come with a you know a chain consequences where because you didn’t do the thing I wanted you to do, well, if you’re not willing to uh you know, o o obey in a sense this thing, then why would I let you do this other thing? Right. Like so there’s there’s ongoing consequences that come with your choices, but ultimately your choices are your own and you’re gonna experience those consequences. You know And differentiation, I guess. I’m probably destroying that term, but like your your choices are your own and your consequences your own and my cho my relationship to you is also distinct in that I will re you know how I respond to you is on my side and I might be disappointed or I might have consequences in the future for this or whatever. But it’s you know, I don’t know if that

Mark:

Well I like your I you like your use of the word um consequences. Um, and I think it’s important to be able to delineate there’s two types of consequences. Okay. There’s natural and logical. Okay. So logical are the ones that I develop out of a sense of discipline. Okay, if you don’t do this, this will happen. Okay? If you don’t clean your room, you don’t get to go to your friends on Friday night.

Justin:

When you say logical, the way I’m sorry.

Mark:

In other words, it’s a it’s a thought up. It’s a

Justin:

manufactured. Yeah. Natural and manufactured.

Mark:

No, not the same. Natural, natural, yes. Okay, I think that’s the same.

Justin:

Manufactured is my version of what you said, logical. Yep. It’s the the created.

Mark:

And natural and natural are the things that happen naturally. If I don’t, you know, realistically, if I don’t pay my taxes, I may lose my home if I continue to drive at a certain rate. of speed, you know, over the over the speed limit. I’m gonna get a ticket. It’s a natural consequence for continually doing something. And I think yeah what uh the other parts it brought brings to mind is sometimes I think when I’m working with families in that dynamic you talk about, I’m not sure or it seems as if Um parents in that situation um don’t necessarily s stop to think about there will come a day when they can no longer do what they are doing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that makes a difference too, to recognize, okay, in that process of propping up, in that process of, you know, you, you know, supporting What happens when you pass away? Who’s gonna do that role? And isn’t it better now for you to start, even though it’s difficult, isn’t it better for you to start This process while you’re still able and available and you know you can be a part of it versus just basically letting this whole house yeah house of cards fall down and then

Justin:

because you’re unable to eat

Mark:

your child is just w like you’re saying far worse yeah than they would have been before.

Justin:

I also think too that the dynamic of that uh r that relational dynamic, the codependent cycle is such that it causes A narrowing of focus. So it is almost impossible to think those thoughts.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Out. You know, it’s like Like you’re just in the cycle. You’re just the ping-pong, right? Like, okay, now I have to solve for this problem. Ding, it’s back. Okay, now I have to solve. And it’s very difficult I think to zoom all the way out without yeah, without that help, that helpful perspective to say, let’s pause for a second and then that’s again, counseling is so important. Um, you know, objective perspectives, you know. Um celebrate cover, we talk a lot about that and kind of um the open share environment is where when someone across the room is talking about their own woes and their own family It’s able to do the same thing. It’s an i it it allows me to unlock something in my brain that goes, Oh, this is me. And allows you to kind of think outside of, you know, yourself or whatever. So I think having those inputs in your life are very, very important if you’re stuck in that dysfunctional cycle.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because asking you to just think bigger in in you know long term is really, really difficult because you’re just trying to solve the next problem, you know.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Both sides of that dysfunction, right?

Mark:

Yeah. And I like the analogy you used with um your your friend there, Stephen Covey, as as far as his kids go. Um because I think a lot of what happens, um we we grew up with a certain parenting style So therefore, our tendency is to use that parenting style with our kids.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And unfortunately, you know, we we know that shame-based parenting, you know par parents who use shame-based parenting, their children have a higher rate of addiction, you know, and and you know, addictive behaviors than because there’s this ability it it it tends to lend towards this isolation and secrecy. I’m going apart because I don’t I’m doing things in secret or around you because I don’t want to have to deal with that shame that I hear that I don’t measure up. And it’s like, you know, so often we have to be able to separate the identity from the action

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because so often, you know, the action the action as if I’m from my parenting dynamic, the hi your action is a reflection upon my identity as a parent.

Justin:

Yes, yes.

Mark:

And that’s a tough thing.

Justin:

You know, that’s where the spaghetti is a real thing. Yes. And that’s that again, that comes right back to what I was saying about Mia. Like I that’s I’m having that hard thing right now. Like If she doesn’t go do the thing we want her to do, that will reflect badly on me. Like I’m a bad parent. It doesn’t you know, or whatever. And I’m like, you know what? Whether it does or doesn’t by some person ‘s perception isn’t true. Like, and that doesn’t make me a good parent. I’m just saying like their perception of, oh, I’m surprised they didn’t make you know, ha their kid’s not here or whatever whatever that thing is, or oh you know, their kid isn’t so perfect ’cause they won’t do this thing that or whatever and I fear that, you know, consternation or whatever. And you know what? I have to learn to be like the sh the That’s she’s not a reflection of me completely. She is in some sense. I guess that’s where it gets fuzzy as parents, right? Like there is a continuum a great a gradiation. of they’re completely reflections of me when they’re a a baby and then slowly it should become less and less and they become their own person and and on the other side, right? Like they’re they’re completely distinct from me And I accept that, they accept that, everyone around accepts that. So there’s the two ends and somewhere in the middle you’re growing in that differentiation. I’m gonna keep using that word. It’s probably not how you would talk. But yeah, it’s difficult.

Mark:

But there’s a there’s a graph basically that describes what you’re saying. And if you think about it like make the L with your your hand and in the lower lower what would be my left corner okay is gonna be at the bottom at the bottom going across at the what’s that x X and Y, right? Y is the top. Yeah. X-axis is right to the middle. Yep. So horizontal. It’s gonna be age. So start that out at zero and then you go up. Okay. Yeah. But on the y-axis going up is going to be responsibility.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So a parent for a child at zero is going to start out at that bottom with a hundred percent responsibility.

Justin:

Yeah, you and that there’s two dots. One is the parent, one is the child.

Mark:

Well, it it’s uh it’s the same graph. So as the p as the child ages, which is which is Gonna happen. It’s the it’s the X. Yep. As they age, okay, you want to equip them to where your responsibility goes down.

Justin:

Right. And theirs goes up.

Mark:

And their as they age, they take on more responsibility. So if I have a five year old and I’m still a hundred percent responsible for them, I’m not giving them age appropriate chores or things like that, you know, that’s gonna likely continue on in ways that are unhealthy into ten twelve, fifteen, fifty-five, you know, that kind of thing to where ultimately around you know, at a certain point, I want them to be fifty fifty, you know. I want, you know, round eighteen, you know, gr or or even less than that. So that I think that’s a helpful visual at times. It’s like How am I equipping my child to eventually take responsibility for all of their own behavior and operate in a healthy autonomy. And I think, you know, that’s a that that’s kind of what you were describing, you know, in that process of as you know we age and responsibility and I and then from that perspective I realize it’s gonna have to be for, you know, and not not necessarily all today, but I’m recognizing I think that’s where boundaries come into play. And I think I even had a conversation with Lizzie about this the other day. I think so often we want to look for formulas. Okay. This and this equals this. Well uh for another time.

Justin:

Yeah. Well I just feel like we reach a really good uh natural bookend to this because I do think this is a good uh conversation to extend to multiple things and I think Talking about we’d we’ve talked we’ve covered count codependency pretty well. Okay. Define some examples and define some terminology to where I think a the natural next next progression would be talk about boundaries and I think

Mark:

it is a cliffhanger.

Justin:

That’s right. Dun dun dun. What’s a boundary, folks? It’s a clip.

Mark:

With one end knocked off.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Cutoff.

Justin:

So we’ll get to that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because I think there’s uh there’s a bajillion ways to do boundaries and uh it’s a continuum of healthy to unhealthy, right?

Mark:

Sure. Well, I think it’s that middle ground again between two extremes. But yes.

Justin:

Bad over here and bad over here.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

You’ll get that.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Well thanks for sharing, Justin. I appreciate the uh I uh now I am now I’m gonna have a a little better insight of where the topic comes from. This is this has been something you’ve been wrestling with.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

In uh multiple kind in multiple ways. So yeah, appreciate you uh bringing some of that experience to the uh microphone for the rest of us to benefit from.

Justin:

Yeah, I’m looking forward to continuing the conversation next time. Which will be uh for us recorded in two weeks. Because next week We’re doing an interview. Special guest.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s been a it’s been a minute since we have a guest, so we’re excited about doing that again.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Maybe all could just say a little prayer that we don’t have any technical difficulties for once.

Mark:

Yeah, well, you know, that’s part of growth. We learn from them.

Justin:

It is, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And we’re excited. This will be our first guest with our new

Mark:

System.

Justin:

Equipment and setup. Um so we’ll have to yeah.

Mark:

Well all right folks, this is how we see it

Justin:

I just saluted Mark. You couldn’t see that. Okay, bye.

Mark:

I saluted back.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.