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[Music]

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you can ask me anything I can ask you anything you can ask me anything what

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should I ask well let me ask you about this book you're reading cuz you sent me a quote this morning I did seems like

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it's something that's pretty interesting to you it is I'd love to hear more about this well it's uh it's been a

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interesting week couple weeks um as a as it's just it's just

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funny how in the process of life I think there's themes that come up you know as

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as I'm working with clients or you know families or is your theme this week very

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itch related or no it is not itch related although I do I do experience a

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tremendous amount of itching but not as much as yes before this is why we have a

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podcast not a video that's right because you would you would feel very bad for

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Mark his case of poison whatever he's got on him exactly poison sumac is that

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poison sumac yes I I realized I uh I have a face for

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radio well thankfully I think your beard protected your face they did it did just the rest of

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[Music] you welcome to how I see it with me Mark

1:25
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that Works to

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countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

1:37
conversations so probably your recommendation for others is maybe don't use a chainsaw and poison sumac yeah I

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would definitely recommend identifying if you're cutting down a dead tree and

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there's like Vines there's life growing up it you might want to identify what

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that vine is before you just kind of have at it you know know hacking away and sawing and you know and yeah

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bushwacking through you know poison sumac because you will pay a price there is no doubt and it will be it will be

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very beneficial to you know have good health people in your life yeah that can

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get you on a you know a steroid rather quickly yes and so yes I am very

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thankful I'm very thankful too that it just is my on my skin it could have been a a long it could have been a you know

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internal thing and I've heard stories of people burning poison ivy or whatever and oh man I don't I can't even imagine

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yes so like to say I count myself very fortunate that I was cutting it up and you know making it into you know fine

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little pieces and I didn't inhale enough of that to cause an issue but it was funny even just where my well where the

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hole in my pant leg was you know that part of my knee is just red in fine little pieces stuck right to your it did

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it did but yeah but I am feeling much better yeah than I was over the weekend

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yeah all right so I'm sorry I interrupted the themes in your life it's okay it's

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because the reality of it is even that had me thinking on the theme of conflict

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because I think we don't I think we I think we all view conflict

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differently you follow me and it was interesting because I was as I was reading I uh had this uh I had this uh

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devotional of toer a to are for Christian leaders and it was talking about some misguided Christian leaders

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feel that they must preserve Harmony at any cost so they do everything possible

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to reduce friction they should remember that there is no friction in a machine that has been shut down for the night

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turn off the power and you will have no problem with moving Parts also remember

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that there is a human society where there are no problems the cemetery the

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dead have no differences of opinion they generate no heat because they have no

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energy and no motion but their penalty is sterility and complete lack of

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achievement and I just that just it was eye openening for me when I

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th thought about how much of our lives really is a matter of conflict or can

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have conflict just because there's motion involved like the

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machine it's like I I think our lives are very motion oriented like a machine

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and I think to if we think that we can operate or move in some ways without

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facing resistance or conflict I think that's naive and you know and I think some

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cases and here again it comes back to what my viewpoint of conflict is you

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know is it quote quote air quotes type thing is conflict good or is conflict

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bad you know because if I tend to view conflict is something that's bad I may

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try to avoid it but I think in in some cases what I end up doing is just

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pulling energy away from another system if I'm trying to avoid conflict so that

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relationship will tend to diminish MH as I try to avoid conflict M yeah does that

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make sense in a in a systems and I and I think so often you know for and yet they can go the other

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way right oh yes where the conflict is so heated that the machine burns up

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right yes so yes I'm just acknowledging the fact that like you said we all see

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conflict differently and also conflict comes in all shapes and sizes and I

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think what to is referring to as important and needed you know conflict

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yes and of course there's a line where conflict becomes war and becomes you know or whatever yes and I don't know

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and then how we see conflict he said we all see it differently it reminds me of

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when you talked about attachment Styles right like depending on how we were raised conflict might

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represent you know the parent who I needed to keep calm or what you know remember when we yeah because and and

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that becomes a you know in in therapy especially marital therapy you know one

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of my key questions will be well how did your hand how did your family handle conflict how was F how was conflict

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resolved you know and you know typically it's that second part you know that people really kind of stumble with well

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you know it wasn't necessarily resolved and therefore you know we're not able to resolve it today and you know to

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actually find resolution and I think you know that's that's the part where you

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know um recognizing that conflict is a part of

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relationship and you know a conflict in that maybe that middle ground between

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pulling back or just burning up you know is this ability to get to know one

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another and understand each other's differences in a way that builds

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intimacy you know through conflict and and I think it's part of what we desire ire through how I see it is to be able

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to recognize yeah we are different but yet we can have these

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conversations that reveal differences and we don't have to allow them to

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divide us but they can actually be a unifying force in some ways

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yeah yeah and it's interesting how sometimes someone's difference can

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represent um basically an inability to accept that person right like and that's

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that's a big again the big thing about how we see it is saying no maybe we can accept others be even when they're

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different right and recognizing that those differences can bring value to my

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life to hear those differences understand those differen to know a real person sure who disagrees with me and

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yet you know I I can accept them like it's such a valuable thing and I just think about even in in my own marriage

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like learning how to do conflict over 18 years of marriage it's we've been

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learning right yeah we're still not perfect at it I would I don't know that you ever get to a point where you've

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perfected uh conflict maybe sure um but one of the things I've had to learn is

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that acceptance like oh okay that's how she thinks well that's okay I don't like

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it I don't want that I would rather her think like me yeah but it's okay okay

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yes and I think that's maybe what you're getting at in terms of I mean that's not always the resolution of conflict is uh

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compromis and or acceptance sometimes you've come to one side or another but

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that I think that's a completely acceptable uh part of conflict is coming to a place of going okay now I see and

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that's good enough what do you think and I well and I think part of our the the

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reasons that we try to AO void Conflict at times has to do with the hurt that we

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may have experienced within a relationship yeah and I don't necessarily want to have to

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revisit that yeah you follow me but as long as I'm in in some ways if I'm just ignoring

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it you know it becomes the the elephant in the room type thing MH and we're you

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know not able to address it in such a way that says okay this this is how I'm seeing it and I think you know part of

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that difference part of our you know experience growing up you know has so

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much to do with how we remember things you follow

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me I think I think in our day and age um we tend to think that in our brain is

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a is a video recording you follow me so when I see an incident and and you see

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an incident you saw it exactly the same way as I think I'm seeing it based on a

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video recording but our our brains don't work that way our brains you know store

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you know segments you know they they they they bunch and they group and you

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know and that's that becomes kind of the the way our memories are stored with

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these you know little s these bites if you will and I think you know to think

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that you see the same thing the same exact way I do is part of the mistake we

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make because after all you should know exactly how you hurt me because if you

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saw it the same way I did which I'm thinking you did based on the video recording of my in my head you know of

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course you know how you hurt me so you you should know you need to apologize for that and at the same time you never

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even saw the hurt right you never even saw how what was said or wasn't said was

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hurtful where I was concerned based on my viewpoint yeah and like the memories

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that are stored uh I love that thought the segments or whatever but they're

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also um the Peaks and valleys of that memory kind of the the the architecture

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of that memory is defined by who you are so yeah uh if you think about it like

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someone who's colorblind right if you were ask him to paint the picture well it would sound different like hey

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remember that day when we both went to the lake and there were sailboats or whatever can you describe what you saw there yeah what they describe is going

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to sound different than what I just saw because of a color blindness right ex

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certain things would probably be diminished in their view maybe they didn't notice the buoy yeah right cuz

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it's red sure um but they noticed you know I don't know let's say the

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lighthouse right yeah where my thoughts you know my mind was transfixed on this

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booy bright red right in the middle you know that stood out to me now of course we're talking about colors but take that

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and apply it to emotions which we've talked about before being like colors right thisa that um maybe in that

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situation I saw disrespect and you saw um lack of love I

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mean think I think that's a common marriage thing right like you didn't I wanted to feel love there and I wanted

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feel of respect or whatever and so we paint these pictures and mine has a bright red buoy and yours has a a black

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and white Lighthouse and neither of us see the other thing cuz we are so transfixed yes does that make sense so

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then our memory is created that way and stored that way and like you said we're like well let me pull up the

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recording see look red buoy and they're like that's not what I saw Yes yes it's

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crazy it is and it and it and it comes back to that perceptional difference at

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times and I and I like you say I'm not I'm not minimizing everything to perception but I also have to realize

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that that is a part of the dynamic that's involved in that conflict of how I see it you know this is what I saw

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this is what I heard and I think when we get to that point of being

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able when we when we get so transfixed on what I saw versus what you

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saw I think that's where the difficulty resolving conflict comes from you know

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when we're trying to prove our case kind of thing yeah because ultimately I have to be right and possibly you have to be

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wrong to agree with my rightness where in reality if we can take it to the

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point of saying okay that's how you saw it and I respect the fact that the

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lighthouse was more important to you you in that moment because I do think in some cases you know we can have this

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even as husband and wife yeah you know our priorities are different sometimes

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work May overcome you know the male priority or you know family may overcome you know and and I think those Dynamics

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neither one wrong right and it's and neither one wrong you said right no I'm just joking with you but but the be

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ability we're going to have a conflict here but at the same time the ability to

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recognize okay this is how I see it and this is how you saw it and how can we bring those together in such a way that

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said okay this is what this is where the problem lies because I was focused there

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and you were focused there and what I heard was that I'm not important to you

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and I felt alone even and how can we both be in that moment and yeah I just come away

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feeling hurt and you come away feeling that was a great day right wonderful

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memory you know being able to see the sailboats and the lighthouse oh oh yeah and the buoy too

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right so I think that's where and I from my perspective I think you know conflict

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can be something we avoid but I like the way he used the analogy of heat you know

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friction and heat because I think there is something to be said for the benefits of friction as well M you know when we

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think about it in terms of fire and you know and those the things that warm us

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also elicit friction to a certain degree yeah movement life yeah and I think

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that's where it just kind of became for me a a Viewpoint over the past couple

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weeks is to be able to recognize okay yes like patterns and Cycles you know if

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we can recognize we have these patterns and Cycles in our lives it kind of takes away that personal element where you did

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this to me whereas I can see it as part of an interaction then it minimizes the

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the personal Dynamic and it becomes less reactive so when I can see conflict in

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the same way I recognize it as a source of friction or heat that is just part of

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movement in life then it it's okay it can normalize it to an extent where

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there's nothing wrong wrong with you or wrong with me the fact that we have a conflict between us so so based on that

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analogy of the machine the heat is you know you think about a motor heat is not

17:13
a helpful byproduct except in the winter I think it funnels to your heat system is that correct sure I mean yeah however

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you want to Define it heat I'm just thinking of a car motor but in a typical

17:24
like just out driving there's so many systems in place to to minimize heat and

17:29
friction and to to address it sure I think in his analogy the key thing is

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that it is a byproduct of a healthy functioning environment machine or

17:41
whatever so if you don't have that then you don't have the health yes I think he his argument wasn't necessarily that

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it's a good thing although I think there are good things that's I'm not saying that's not true but I do think the most

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important takeaway is that if you don't have conflict you don't have relationship yes right exactly at least

18:01
not closeness because that is a byproduct of a good functioning healthy

18:07
relationship is that those differences come to the surface and bump up against each other yes and you should desire a

18:15
relationship that's close enough that that happens not that you desire conflict you know right not Conflict for

18:22
the sake of conflict right but conflict as proof of a living viable yes well

18:28
oiled machine well oil being deal with conflict yes right exactly that's the

18:34
oil that's the okay the differences are bumping up against each other and you know let's let's pour some oil on this

18:41
and let's talk about it right versus uh let's light a match and let's do this

18:46
again go 12 rounds like right yes just maybe think about that analogy with the

18:53
motor I think that's such a good yeah when that motor's running that's that's

18:58
that's when so much good stuff's going to happen right exactly um but it will have that byproduct of heat and friction

19:05
no doubt and I think there's a part of healthy relationship as well that isn't

19:11
necessarily focused on the friction but healthy maintenance in such a way that

19:18
says okay yes this is a part of our lives but it's not the only part of our

19:24
lives and we have these other systems in place you know where we can you know bring refreshment in the oil if you will

19:32
that that helps us say okay yeah we enjoy our time together even though we

19:38
experience Conflict at times as a result of getting to know one

19:43
another so I think that's the part of it and it and it uh another another Dynamic

19:49
I think that I kind of equated with this in the process was um there's a principal Henry

19:56
Cloud um mentioned as actually came from a client too that um he talks about you

20:02
know hard easy or easy hard and I think you know the the basis of that principle

20:07
is you know we can if we start with the easy things or try to focus on all the

20:13
easy things typically it gets harder as we go you know and yet if we start with

20:19
the hard things which I think sometimes between individuals can be addressing

20:25
conflict it gets easier as we go because the difficult Dynamics are addressed at the very beginning who I am who you are

20:34
those differences and then I think we can find an easiness that goes with that

20:40
and I think you know that's a principle that we can you know in business or you know in other areas and it just happened

20:45
to kind of coincide with what I'm experiencing you know with just life in general how you know I think our

20:53
tendency you know is to kind of want to do the easy stuff first and I and

20:59
granted there's something to the a Snowball Effect right you know that says that but if I'm just focusing on the

21:05
little things and ignoring the bigger things you know I think that we can do

21:11
that in relationship as well you're cruising for bruising yeah yeah because yeah go ahead well I

21:20
was just thinking the analogy loow hanging fruit yes that's kind of the snowball thing like there is some value

21:26
to that as long as the the bigger thing is in view in terms of you know in your

21:34
in your line of sight of things that you're going to accomplish right like we are going in other words the avoidance

21:39
thing is the the problem here exactly but I do like because you think about

21:44
dating right um when you go on your first date you're all right let's figure out the thing we

21:50
can have conflict first and then we'll do the easy things it's sip a milkshake together right right first let's start

21:57
with what's your view on you know whatever disciplining children or whatever I don't know whatever that

22:03
polarizing thing might be right yeah we don't do that because of course that's not yeah but one could argue that in the

22:11
course of a dating relationship you should start to do those hard things so that you you know at some point you go

22:17
okay this probably isn't the right partner for me right that's so you do have to hit those things and if you

22:23
don't you might end up in a relationship where easy and then hard right easy things first and and the hard things

22:29
come after marriage and um yeah I just it's interesting yeah analogy but and I

22:37
and I think you know when we view Our Lives you know whether it's work or you

22:43
know whether it's relationship or business I think you know it's important to recognize that hard things have to be

22:50
done and I think the more that we do hard things at times it's it's

22:57
recognizable that there would be more conflict involved MH because there is more friction created by moving bigger

23:05
things you know and it so for me that just kind of tied together in a way you

23:12
know even as um even as we're thinking about you know the property and where we want to go and what we want to do it's

23:17
at times you know it's easy to feel overwhelmed you know especially more so for Chris cuz you know it's like she

23:24
just trying to plant a garden some days you know and here the insects come or he

23:30
the rains come you know and there's this conflict you know or this resistance if you will and it's like it

23:38
ends up wiping out the tomato plants you know and it's like yeah that's

23:43
frustrating and yet at the same time it's like okay that's part of a learning

23:48
and then so what do we need to do differently and you know and it's not a and unfortunately for her she it's not

23:54
so much a matter of giving up it's that process of being able to say okay okay this is how we need to do it differently

24:01
you know and some of that may be some things have to be put off till we're actually out to the property fulltime

24:07
where we can actually maintain things along the way versus expecting them to

24:13
grow by themselves without our protection or without our maintenance to

24:19
a degree because I think you know that I think I think it's biblical you know

24:24
that the that we're living in a world that will resist exist our growth MH

24:31
that we're living in an environment that is that is counter to what we desire to

24:36
do at times you know take heart I've overcome you know in this world you will

24:41
have trouble but take heart I've overcome or and I think you know we have

24:46
that ability to overcome you know and I and I see conflict as part of that overcoming that

24:53
we can do especially within family systems yeah yeah I mean family systems

24:59
are no different than a garden right like we we need maintenance we need no

25:05
different maybe a little different but yes very many similarities there's a

25:11
there's a good metaphor there I guess is what I'm trying to say but you know we talked about this in the planting Things

25:16
episode is just this idea that um there's so many metaphors in growing things because just like your garden you

25:24
know your relationships need tending they need gardening they need they need the weats pulled they need shade from

25:30
some of the sun sometimes they need watering at Key point you know it's like yeah it's if you want a good healthy

25:36
garden well it requires attention and effort and yes that's no different than the the good relationships in your life

25:44
but the um yeah I think I think in a garden

25:49
obviously there could be frustration to where the effort I put in didn't yield what I expected it to exactly right yes

25:56
and there can be that t y like you said to say you know maybe gardening is not for me yeah you know cuz I you know I

26:03
did the X Y and Z and I still end up with no tomatoes so uh maybe Tomatoes

26:09
aren't for me maybe I need to try a squash right whatever or we take that in a family system and say this

26:15
relationship isn't for me yeah that's what I was I'm sorry I didn't mean to hinting at that okay no no but if you

26:22
want to continue with a squash if you want to continue with a squash that's okay the point is squash being a new

26:28
relationship right like let's try this one I was like well sometimes it just requires sticking

26:34
it out and learning the patterns learning the systems and um you know obviously in a dating relationship

26:40
that's the time to go you know do I like squash or do I like tomatoes yeah whatever but there's something to be

26:46
said about let me learn how to grow these Tomatoes okay so you can't do this you do have to do this this is a

26:52
non-negotiable right right or you know maybe this this year I got lucky and it's because I didn't really realized

26:58
how much rain mattered and it just rained a lot and I just thought I had a green thumb and you know what I mean I

27:03
do and that could be like your your honeymoon phase the first year like it's just magical everything's great and then

27:09
it turns out she doesn't like how I do dishes or I don't make the bed right or whatever it is and uh the next year

27:16
there's a few more bugs a little less rain and it requires effort it requires learning it requires modify you know

27:23
yeah and I and I like the analogy of the difference because I think when we

27:29
ignore the um the preferences I guess I'll call it of certain plants you know

27:36
some needing full sun some needing Shades some needing you know if if we just choose to

27:43
ignore that that difference and that the difference that you need in your

27:49
environment for a healthy healthy growth and what I need it's like okay I think

27:55
that can be an aspect where we come together and we share the Sun at times

28:01
but at the same time we can have our individual differences where okay I need a little time away and I this is my

28:07
shade and you can stay in the sun if you want to but I know I'm I know myself

28:12
well enough if I just stay in the sun all the time if you're full sun and I'm partial shade you know it's like I enjoy

28:19
the Sun but I also need shade too but it will kill me yes whereas you if if you're just in

28:27
the shade all the time and your full sun you know you're not going to thrive

28:32
there and I think you know you will you know in if I may borrow the analogy you know you're going to fall into that

28:38
depression if you will if you you know just try to live in all shade right when

28:44
you're designed for full sun you know that's G to that's G to harm you in some

28:51
way you're going to experience a result of that and I think you know to ignore

28:56
those yeah Dynamics is naive yes it's interesting in both those sides right

29:03
full sun or prefers the result is the same

29:09
shriveling yes death lack of growth falling back yeah

29:14
lack of growth it's the results look the same but often they can come from

29:20
different reasons yes yeah so if if if yeah so this that's one thing obviously

29:27
I'm sure we both learned in our marriages right is if we we are learning one of the other yes always right uh is

29:34
if we're always full son well one of us is going to be very happy and growing but there's a chance the other one is

29:40
starting to shrivel or whatever so there's that balance that we've recognized and I think that's one thing

29:47
I've had to learn is like no this is this is not just a cute difference this is a life and death situation you know

29:56
not to be melodramatic but it's like that my partner needs certain things

30:01
that I don't need or needs a different amount right sure and so for her uh more

30:08
introverted needing that alone time she needs that as much as I need my hangout

30:14
time right like and we both need those things to be healthy growing whatever

30:19
and there'll be times where we shrivel a little bit because we're not getting enough but the point is it is a need it's not just a cute difference between

30:26
us and it's like oh you can get get over your introverted self and just learn how to be social or vice versa like you can

30:33
get over your need for I should be enough for you right or whatever um no

30:39
they're both needs needs just like the sun and I think and I will say you know

30:45
as we talk about the the similarities between family systems and plant life I

30:50
will say that I think you know as we experience marriage or you know

30:55
relationship over time I think you know we

31:01
can we can change or learn the value of

31:06
more sun or more shade you know because I think about our relationship early on I was probably more the full sun you

31:14
know and as I've you know gotten to know Chris and through our marriage I would say she may you know she was more

31:21
partial shade and I think we've kind of come you know more towards the middle I don't have to be in the sun I don't have

31:29
to be in the sun all the time I don't have to be around people I don't have to be extroverted all the time and I've

31:36
learned to Value you know that partial state of pulling back and saying okay

31:43
yeah this is just our time or this is just my time and and Chris coming from

31:48
where she was she's better able to understand that need you know because

31:54
that doesn't when I when I'm when I up to capacity with my extroversion it's

32:01
okay to come back and step back and say okay I just need time away and I think as I've gotten to know Chris we've kind

32:08
of brought that together she comes she can definitely be as extroverted it's

32:14
not that she you know desires it all the time though yeah and I think now we're at a we're at a point where we've come

32:22
to appreciate who we both are and I'm not as full son or extroverted as I was and

32:30
she's probably more more extroverted not that she was ever introverted I'd say

32:36
you know completely but in the on a Continuum if you will you know to where we've both kind of moved a little more

32:43
towards the center and it's easier for us to find agreement with what we want

32:50
to do or how we want to spend our time symbiosis yeah that idea of being able

32:57
to live together in harmony but not in a way that is compromising but is complimentary you know yes yeah or cuz I

33:04
you know I was thinking about even plants that have preference towards full sun if you gave them what they want that

33:11
can kill them sometimes too right like because I think there's a balance

33:17
needed in all of creation right and so if there's only son and never night or never water never shade never whatever

33:26
well they're going to die no matter what they're references right like they might really like the sun and they'll shoot up

33:31
but they their roots are shallow and they fall over and they die right I think about we grew some sunflowers last

33:37
year and man they shot up and they looked like picture perfect you know outside our window our Windows probably

33:45
I don't know 8 10 feet up above the ground and it was like eye to eye with us you know wow and the first little

33:52
storm came along a little bit of wind and they just all kind of you know so wey tyeing up or whatever

33:59
but it kind of makes me think of that like they got what they wanted they got that sun but they probably could have

34:05
had a few Shady days to learn how to grow some Roots you know what I mean you know I think that's true for us as well

34:12
like I think what I need yes is all this social engagement but really it's trying

34:18
to fulfill a certain need that I truly have you know that isn't necessarily

34:23
best served by that resource that's part of what can feed that need but it

34:28
shouldn't be everything and I've talked about this concept of approval addiction or some people call it people pleasing

34:34
it's like you get your jollies from pleasing people from seeing uh a

34:41
pleasing face on someone in front of you that you're trying to appease or please or whatever or approval you're like I

34:47
made that person proud of me and it fulfills a certain need that you have but often that fulfillment is an

34:54
unhealthy way that creates a need for more of that sure which again is

34:59
unhealthy where it'd be better if I learned those things through a different process and my roots were growing right

35:06
sure and yeah I think I think what you're describing is part of that that conflict that we can face when if we're

35:14
just trying to appease all of the people you know in that extraversion we're going from one relationship to another

35:20
relationship to another relationship because the minute we can't please that other person that's too much Conflict

35:27
for me to deal with yeah and so I have to I move on and I think that's part of the the ability of

35:33
being able to pull back is to be able to say no it's not about knowing everyone

35:38
maybe it's knowing 10 people well you know and and therefore and you know for

35:44
some people it may be you know they would prefer three to five close you

35:50
know intimate friends you know where other people might want you know 20 you

35:55
know 30 more friends CU then that way they can move and I'm not saying either one's wrong but if we're just focusing

36:02
on more friends we're missing out on part of the ability to build healthy

36:08
relationship and I think there is something to be said for you know the ability to focus on building friendships

36:15
from a you know intimacy standpoint I really know who you are and you know who I am therefore we're able to be

36:22
authentic with one another and I think you know even as couples you know when we're able to recognize the conflicts we

36:30
have and address them as such even to be able to address past hurts not in a way

36:37
that brings up the past but in a way that says you know what when we went down

36:45
that road you know when we drove by that place I I remember when we had that

36:51
conflict there and I was reminded of that today and you know and that allows

36:57
that opportunity for that individual to share a part of who they are in that

37:02
intimacy that they were reminded of that moment not in a way that's saying that's your fault but in a way that says oh wow

37:11
thanks for sharing that I I didn't think about it that way but I appreciate you

37:16
being willing to let me know that that was a thought that crossed your mind and is there something I can do the help do

37:23
you do we need to find an alternate route some days or you know is that is that specific to this time of year or

37:30
you know when those certain because I think you know I think there's some a lot to be

37:35
said for that because you know our body never forgets it's a it's a book you know it's a pop but I think there's a

37:41
lot to that you know in those processes of hurt or conflict when it comes back

37:46
to that oh I'm not going there again because that hurt too muchh and I think

37:53
you know when we when we hold life like that we tend to pull back from

37:58
relationship and we miss out on that ability to have that reciprocation that says oh wow I didn't know that I hurt

38:07
you that way or you know even to the point of being able to say yeah I did

38:12
know I hurt you that way and then that relationship may need to change because

38:18
if I'm if I'm hanging around people who deliberately desire to hurt me okay then

38:24
maybe that's not a healthy relationship but yeah if I'm willing to recognize this is how I hurt and and we

38:32
we understand healthy relationship in a way that says oh wow okay thanks for

38:38
sharing didn't know I did it or yeah I can remember saying that but that's not

38:45
what I meant and you know just trying to walk that through in such a way that

38:50
takes ownership or responsibility and I and I think another

38:56
example if I may it it it creates healthy boundaries you know if I know where I

39:02
start and where you stop you know then we can both take responsibility for our own what's in

39:09
your area to take responsibility for what's in your yard you follow me because sometimes what's in your yard

39:16
might overgrow into mine you follow me but that doesn't necessarily the fact

39:21
that I've allowed that to overgrow into my yard without addressing it with you

39:27
that's my that can become your issue can become my issue mhm yeah but if I'm willing to say okay you know Justin that

39:35
that big weeping willow you know you got some branches I'm tired of cleaning up all the the the the leaves from that

39:41
tree you need to trim my side MH because that's that's overgrowing and I think

39:47
that's healthy relationship because it's your your problems aren't my problems

39:52
and my problems aren't your problems because otherwise we're in meshed mhm yeah but when we have a healthy boundary

39:59
I know what I'm what I own what I have control air quotes over or but

40:05
ultimately what I'm responsible for yep yeah CU in that analogy I'm responsible

40:11
for my resentment of that tree and those leaves in my yard yes like that's on me

40:17
I can't blame the other person for my resentment yes but it is their tree and I can say that is your tree you need to

40:24
trim it and that's how I deal with my side which is the resentment is the frustration is the desire for vengeance

40:31
I'm going to grow my own tree yes versus just saying hey yeah be addressing it in

40:38
a form of healthy conflict even before it grows to resentment yeah you know not

40:44
that resentment isn't a reality don't get me wrong I that you know the struggle with me is I don't often know

40:50
it's a conflict until I feel the resentment so oh okay so that that might be a system that's broken in my brain

40:57
but um yeah I tend to overlook a thing an issue until it's starting

41:04
development resentment and then it becomes difficult to resolve because it's resentful we can break down my

41:12
issues as a different point but I'd love to no but that's interesting that's a great analogy you know as far as you

41:18
know how people handle conflict differently because I think there is something to be said for you know when I

41:25
start to think it you it's like wow that tree is starting to get a little over the line MH and that might be a time to

41:33
be able to say hey have you noticed because this is what I'm noticing MH You

41:38
Follow Me versus versus well I don't want to deal with that today MH and you

41:45
know today becomes two years and then suddenly I spend more of my time and I'm losing my grass and I'm you know I'm

41:52
raking up your leaves and at that point it's like I'm ready to cut your tree down I'll just come across the yard mhm

41:58
you know and and do that and I think that's a you know a good analogy for what resentment can be Y is that saying

42:06
yeah taking what is yours also you're making that tree grow like that on purpose I know what you're doing yes you

42:14
did that on purpose you planted that tree just to kill my grass right and you

42:21
you're trying to give me something to do yeah as if I don't have enough to do already

42:27
yeah and that and that's what we can experience sometimes in relationship so there's there's two

42:34
perspectives I'd love to get your thoughts on oh okay so I I didn't say

42:39
you could ask me anything didn't I you did say that I recall hearing that um

42:44
from your perspective so two Polar Opposites is I'm someone who avoids conflict I am what we call codependent

42:52
right in the relationship where I do my best to cover up for your mistakes and compens for them but I'm still being

42:58
hurt by them over and over and over a that's that's point a how do you

43:04
encourage that person to uh Embrace conflict in a way that's healthy and

43:09
pushes the relationship forward so that's a b is I'm the other person I'm con I have no problem with conflict I do

43:17
conflict every day I'm I'm great at conflict right not not realizing I'm actually pushing over bowling over

43:24
everyone around me and I don't know how to do conflict correctly because what I think is good proper way to do conflict

43:31
is just shoving everything out of my way does that make sense and I I'll tell

43:37
anyone what I think anytime and I have no problem with that and not recognizing that every relationship is either gone

43:45
because they got pushed out or they're the codependents around you who are propping you up and it's not a healthy

43:51
relationship but you feel perfectly healthy because your your trees grow

43:57
nice and strong you know what I mean at the expense right so I'd love to

44:02
hear cuz I know you've had these conversations in counseling with the marital counseling whatever where you've

44:09
had to connect you speak to each of those versions to say here's what you

44:15
need to do or you know how you see it right like how do you see it Mark how do I how do you encourage

44:21
A&B there's two things there's a couple there's a bunch of things coming to my mind I like I see the wheel

44:28
let's start a new episode

44:34
um I like the aspect of Truth and

44:39
mercy okay and Jimmy Evans talks about this you know he's a he's a he's a guy I know you know listen to marriage

44:46
marriage today um Mar he's marriage ONN the Rocks guy yeah

44:52
um truth let's see truth is a cheerleader without a

45:00
team all rah rah no no mercy is a cheerleader without a team and Truth is

45:07
Operation without anesthesia you follow me to the point we can be so truthful you did this you did

45:16
that you did that that's how I see it but yet that may be the truth that I have but that doesn't extend Mercy to

45:23
you you follow me that you didn't intend some of the things that happened you

45:29
follow me and I so I like and I and I think part of that when we go back to the initial

45:36
analogy of the codependent is the the ability to recognize what is true okay

45:42
am I am I am I just choosing to extend Mercy all the stink in time you follow

45:49
me because the truth is you're just mean to me you know if I'm willing to address

45:57
that you're just mean and you're if we're looking at it a

46:03
on a Continuum okay and this is how I would work with someone I would draw a

46:08
Continuum and on one end I would put aggressive and on the other end I'd put

46:15
passive and in the middle between two lines I would put assertive you follow me because our

46:22
tendency is to live on one end of that Spectrum or the other other you know

46:28
it's very the ability to assert is my ability to recognize that there is a

46:35
boundary around my life okay so if someone is just continually being

46:43
aggressive I can basically go to that side that boundary and say okay this is

46:49
where this is where the line is you're being aggressive and I'm going to pull back I'm not going to deal with that

46:57
okay when you want to talk to me in a manner that is

47:03
respectful then then we can have in we can have this you know

47:09
discussion but if you're just going to come at me with aggression I'm G to pull back I'm going to draw a line here and

47:15
we're not having this discussion anymore you follow me I don't have to be mean I don't have to I don't have to meet

47:22
aggression with aggression I can be assertive in such a way that says no I'm

47:27
not you're not treating me this way anymore and if this and if this continues I am leaving and I'm not

47:33
saying that in a you know pack my bags I'm out the door you know I I think more of a um dramatic style relationship you

47:42
know you know where we where we just throw that out there but basically we're

47:47
we're establishing a boundary a line that says okay this is where I start

47:52
this is where you stop and this is where I start and I think that's helpful for

47:58
codependency but that individual has to learn how to basically assert because

48:04
they've spent so much time on the passive end of the scenario for them to

48:09
even assert which is middle which is healthy from my perspective okay they

48:15
have to be from their perspective they have to be mean yes that's mean-spirited

48:20
that's mean that's something they've never really developed right is the the

48:25
ability to recognize their own anger and say okay yeah that's unacceptable that's

48:32
too far it it's interesting because you know in regards to codependency I mean

48:38
that's that's a term I pulled you know through c Rec recovery we talk a lot about that and it's often the other end

48:44
of the Stick of an addict right is is the codependent um you know

48:49
so but one thing we've noticed uh and it's not just us I me it's a common

48:55
understanding is that as someone Works through the issue of codependency of learning how to move on that Continuum

49:03
towards assertiveness they very often blow past the line sure that's a very

49:09
common beginning first stage is to go you know what I'm done and just Wham I'm

49:16
now mean and this is what you get of me and the sense of Freedom that they feel

49:21
from that like you see it over and over that pattern of going like wow wow this

49:27
is great I did it I made it and you're like well you're on your way yes because

49:32
now now you know that's not the end goal either it's now I'm like him now I'm the

49:38
bully right yeah like and I think there's a freedom in a an amazing part

49:43
of getting to that side of like going oh wow I don't have to be that exactly and

49:49
that's important but at the same time I think that's part of the continuing of learning as a from as a codent is to

49:56
recognize you're probably going you don't know what it sort of looks like if you did you'd be better at it right so

50:02
there's a chance maybe you'll put an anemic effort at it and still be codependent and you're like it doesn't

50:08
work or you going no I'm going to give it a real effort and you just blow past the line and now you're mean but you now

50:14
see the value in it so I would encourage like you got to push you got to do your best but recognize that maybe the first

50:20
attempts at learning how to be assertive will be mean exactly you know and you might feel like it's mean but you also

50:27
might get a sense of like o that feels good I like being on this side of the

50:33
equation right yeah you can and and at the same time I think you know we we have that tendency

50:40
you know when we experience something new it's kind of like a drunk trying to ride a horse you know we do end up

50:45
shifting from one side to the other and it's very hard to shift to just the

50:51
middle and ride straight ahead you know not the you know not using analogy of a

50:56
addiction but still it is that Dynamic that we might at times and I think you know if we talk about passive aggressive

51:05
relationship that's exactly what that is it's the drunk trying to ride the

51:11
horse you follow me versus that ability to learn how to assert for myself and establish healthy boundaries yeah that

51:18
is able to address conflict in a way that's healthy and saying this is what I

51:23
saw help me understand this is what I experienced because at that point we are

51:29
able to ex share our truth what we experienced what I saw what I heard in

51:37
such a way that it's extending Mercy to you because there is a a benefit of the

51:43
doubt if you will that you weren't necessarily meaning to be menacing or

51:49
diabolical right you know so often our tendency can be well you just meant to do

51:54
that you were you were try I know what you want what you were doing no you

51:59
don't know you may think and that's okay but at the same time that Mercy is the part

52:07
that allows you to say oh thanks for sharing that um that's not necessarily

52:14
what I meant I can understand you know what you heard and I'm I'm honestly

52:21
sorry that you heard it that way because that's not what I intended but that's

52:26
not an excuse on my part I'm willing to acknowledge that that's what was conveyed as far as you heard it yeah

52:34
that's so valuable to be able to say that yeah that sounds like a healthy individual yes so let's get back to the

52:41
unhealthy indiv did I did I divert from the question no no no saying you went right

52:47
to the ideal which is amazing like that's that's what the listener should be saying I want okay to get there but

52:56
what let's go back to I'm not there I'm the worst version of so we're talking about codependence I think yep you could go on

53:03
for years about that but um the other thing I would encourage is because you don't know what a servess looks like get

53:09
people in your life who do and let them hold you accountable yes like whether it's a counselor you're in Mark's office

53:15
and you say well do you think that was a CER of do you think that was just mean you know like or uh you know CR we call

53:22
it accountability partner sponsor whatever cuz to think that you can figure out on your own well did you so

53:28
far no all right well let's get some help U all right so we talked about and I think I think to as as a step you know

53:34
and I I think about it from the terms of my office sometimes you know it is that point of where do I think I am on that

53:42
continue on oh yeah you follow me put an X Step One is denial right figuring out

53:47
yeah that's yeah I I have to be able to recognize where I am on this Contin am I

53:53
so passive that I'm in mesed and other people's problems are my problems or you know that kind of thing or am I able to

54:00
recognize what's your problem and what's my problem you know or are you just my problem and that's on the aggressive end

54:07
that's that kind of thing so be able to identify that how often when you ask that question self assessment

54:15
questions you know I have a perception of what my answer would be to this but how often are we in Deni when we answer

54:21
like here's the Continuum you know I have my two hands held up left and right right

54:27
and the right is the extreme of mean and and you know whatever the left is the

54:33
extreme of cendence and IM mment in your problems are my problems how often do we say no I'm actually way over here I'm

54:40
way over like we admit that or is it or do we often bring ourselves very close

54:47
to the middle in our assessment I'm curious I have found when we talk with

54:52
people about their patterns and cycles and tendencies it's and then I draw the Continuum it's

55:00
very easy for them to see oh wow I'm all the way over by that Arrow you just made

55:05
under passive you know they'll put they're willing to put their X there so you give them the full context before

55:11
asking for their assessment yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense we talk about it in a sense of patterns and Cycles you

55:18
know it's like okay yeah you know he should know or she should know what I'm thinking it's like how sh how would they

55:25
know that help me understand that better well you know I did this they should

55:32
have known no I don't think I don't think that's fair you know help me understand that why how could they know

55:39
if you just did this you know is that is that conveying that full sense of what

55:45
you need or are they supposed to interpret that based on that snippet

55:52
that text you sent that five-word text are they supposed to you know elicit the

55:58
feelings that you felt in that from a text message you know that's kind

56:04
of because then we can start well you know what there there was some stuff missing there MH there was a lot of

56:11
thought that wasn't in that that I felt but I can understand how it wasn't

56:18
conveyed yeah that's that's [Music]

56:24
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