Conspiracy Theories

What’s the appeal of conspiracy theories? Are they harmless entertainment or dangerous rabbit holes? Join Justin and Mark as they dive into the topic of conspiracies, discussing famous ones like JFK and 9/11, talk about finding truth between polarized viewpoints, and warn how easy it is to get sucked down rabbit holes.


No doubt.

But, you know, we wanted to make this podcast about good content.

Even if it’s humorous, good content’s important.

That’s right.


Because why do we want good content, Justin?

I feel like you’re conspiring.

You think?

I’m thinking I’m not following.

I am conspiring.

You caught me.

Nice job.



I think you’re used to my.



Your segue.


Your conspiration.

There you go.

Is that a word?

It must be.

I’m going to make it a word right for this moment.

It’s a markism.


Well, I’d have to say it a few more times.


I’d have to say it a number of times.

Don’t work it in today.

Don’t work.

So what we’re concentrating about.

Well, I was thinking about it in the context of valuable information.

How do we discern whether something’s valuable or not valuable?


And how often do we get sidetracked by entertaining information?


Does that make sense in the whole?


Because we can have a bunch of thoughts.

Well, did that really happen?

Did that really happen?

And what about this?

And I think that’s what makes sometimes discerning truth, you know, or what is valuable to me.

It’s a little more difficult.


Because sometimes it’s not as entertaining.



And I think, you know, in a lot of cases, we desire in some ways to be entertained.



And I think also we have a natural proclivity to drama and gossip and like.



You think?

And, you know, kind of all those like kind of seedy feelings of like, ooh, something’s up and I know about it and I’m on the inside, you know?


And it’s funny that you mentioned that because it was, as you were mentioning those very words, even the Bible come to mind for me.

You know, this.



The Votionalist Morning talked about the cosmic drama.


The unfolding cosmic drama of, you know, creation at the beginning, you know, but then you still have, you know, this redemption and, you know, and times, you know, but yeah, in the midst of it all, there’s these personal situations that at times are seedy, if you will, using your word, you know?

And I was thinking about that from that aspect of the whole dynamic of conspiracy theory.


You know, where does that come from?

Where, you know, that process?

Because I think, you know, we tend to.



We tend our lives are more or circumstances.

We can recognize in this cosmic drama that there’s more complexity sometimes than we’re often given, you know?

Or we desire and that becomes.



And because I think drama or being dramatic can have almost a negative connotation.


But yet there is this part of our lives that is a certain journey or drama, if you will.

And it’s like you think about all of the.



Well, not all of the.



You know, when you think about historic events, you know, there is this complexity, you know, when you think of conspiracy theory, what’s the.



What’s one of the primary ones that come to mind for you?

The movie.

The movie?

Is there a movie called the conspiracy?

Oh, wow.

With Mel Gibson, you should watch it.

It’s really good.

Oh, wow.


He’s like.



I don’t know, he’s kind of like on the spectrum kind of guy.

And he struggles to hold down a job.

And he’s kind of likable, but he’s also just kind of out there, you know.

Oh, wow.

And he has these very ornate theories, you know, conspiracy theories about what’s going on.

And of course, he’s crazy, you know, and you kind of.



Everyone just kind of smiles and winks at him, you know, that kind of thing.

And then at some point in the movie, like it turns out he’s right.

Oh, wow.

And they like capture him and, you know, lock him away kind of thing.

Oh, wow.


Sounds pretty.

I need to rewatch.

It’s been a long time.

I can’t even remember it fully, but it was really fascinating.

But it like played into that desire we have to like, there’s something behind the door, you know, that no one’s telling us, but you know what?

We know, you know.


And then some like real ones that I was spitting off earlier when you were asking me about it.

It’s like, uh, what was the first one I said?

Oh, uh, 9-11.

There’s a lot of conspiracy theories around that.

And, you know, whether things were planned or not planned and who planned what and kind of the implications of all that.

And then, well, or like I think one specific one that I remember hearing is that 9-11 was planned specifically by the government to provide an opportunity to attack the Middle East for oil or something like that.



Just hearing you talk about that.

It’s like we should have a call in type dynamic.

Tell us your conspiracy theories.

Your favorite ones.


And then obviously COVID, you know, all sides, just a lot of conspiracy theories about how, you know, we need more vaccines and we don’t need vaccines.


You know, they’re forcing this on us for some nefarious reason that they’re not telling us in vice versa, you know, the people who don’t want you to take a vaccine.

Population control.



And then vice versa.

The people who don’t want you to take the vaccine or there’s a conspiracy on their side why they don’t want you to.

And you’re just falling for it kind of thing.

Like it’s just me so much.

No one’s- No one- I got to get caught up on my conspiracies.

I’m doing it for you.

Yeah, I guess so.

I guess so.

You mentioned JFK.


I guess my- when I tend to think of that, I’m tending to, you know, go back more historic or go back to the circle type of thing, you know, because we were actually, you know, in Dallas and, you know, and had been in that- The grassy know.


Bend to that spot.

Bend to the library, you know, the window, you know, saw all that.

And, you know, of course you’re- Well, it’s a window mean because I- In other words, there’s- That were the shooters of the U.


That’s where Lee- Lee, no Lee Harvey Oswald was Lincoln.


Is it?

Ah, I apologize.


Who killed Abraham Lincoln?

Yeah, I was right.


John Wilkes- John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln.

I apologize.

Who killed JFK?

It’s gonna be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Dang it.

I was supposed to say it out loud.

I have it on.


You don’t get to know everyone.

No, you’re right.

Lee Harvey.


At least that’s who, you know.

And then the whole thing, you know, why Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald the way he did, you know, that whole kind of thing, you know.

I’m pretty rusty on that whole thing.

That’s okay.

But like you say, that- It’s interesting.

That is an interesting, you know.

But what’s the take on why he did it?

Something to do with the mob or like- Yeah, that part, he veids me at the moment.

He is, but it’s still- Yeah.

The fact that there could have been another person on a grassy, gnoll type thing, you know, that he didn’t act alone and yeah.

A recent news spin.


Yes, to this.

See, there is an interest.

I can see your eyebrows just raised.

You know?

Did you know this little piece of juiciness?

No, actually, it’s in the movie Oppenheimer.


You just saw that recently and at the end, so this guy, you know, they paint this picture of this guy who kind of wants to ruin Oppenheimer because Oppenheimer kind of humiliated in some ways and he always had a vendetta against him.


So he tried to basically tear down Oppenheimer’s reputation and he ended up basically- doing a get-in as security clearance revoked and stuff.


And which was a pretty- that basically ended his career because that’s where his career was, right?


Anyway, at the end, they had this scene where they’re, you know, the- I’m trying to remember how it went, but basically it was in the congressional hearing to determine whether he could be a cabinet member.


And that’s, you know, it’s almost always just a formal thing and then they get in, right?

In this case, he didn’t and there was this one.

A few people that just said, no, we see what you’re doing here.

We know, you know, you have this vendetta and other things too.

Like, clearly he had kind of a CD background.

This is the movie.


You know, I- whether history paints it exactly like this, I don’t know.

But at the end, he asked his 80s, like, who was that person who voted who got people to vote against me?

And he said, some upstart from, you know, wherever is John F.


Oh, wow.

He kind of left you with that.

With- in this guy who’s super angry and like has these vendettas and stuff.

So it’s like, okay, all right.

You see the pictures are trying to paint that he, you know, he was kind of the architect behind it all.

Because again, this movie was very much about how this guy architected Oppenheimer’s destruction.

But the whole time was padding Oppenheimer in the back, like, I’m on your side, I’m your buddy, kind of thing.

Oh, wow.

So, you know, that, I thought that was kind of- Yeah.

I like those little teasers, you know.

I don’t know if that’s a real theory that they worked in or it’s just a fun thing.

But there’s- Yeah.

There’s a new juicy tidbit for you.

A new juicy tidbit based on old history.

That’s right.

He’s a new movie on old history.

So yeah.

Any others that come to mind?

Um, yeah, it’s about enough several of them.

I’m already forgetting what they- Well, you said hanging chads.

Oh, yeah.

Hanging chads.



Which, you know, voting election protest and ongoing one that happens every election, because if your guide isn’t winning, it’s- It- You know, you want to find out why.

And I mean, so this kind of ties back to what you were saying is typically the conspiracy theories, uh, fester where we want to believe something that we don’t think is being told, you know?



And there’s the- the bummer, it’s like, we’re not being told a lot.

Like we know that.

Like there’s- To me, that’s obvious.


In terms of governmental secrets and stuff like that.


When you say governmental secrets, what do you mean?

Well, classified information, you know, that there’s a whole, you know, a ton of stuff in that category.

And, um, you know, what’s cool is as the country gets older, we start declassifying stuff and you find out what the truth was.

And, um, the thing that I always think about when it comes to, I don’t know if you ask this, but I’m going to answer it anyway.

Like, how do I- I’m going to answer this question before you ask it.

I know it’s coming.

Um, is how do you deal with, you know, these various conspiracies, you know, whatever.

And I really like the Occam’s razor, um, thing, which is basically saying the simplest solution is almost always the best.

And so the problem with conspiracy theories is they often architect these elaborate insane schemes, which am I insane?

I’m sorry if you, you know, maybe you don’t feel insane believing it, but for the problem is they require so many people to keep the secret, right?

That at some point you just go, I don’t think that’s even remotely possible.


Makes sense.


And I, and I like lizard people.

I said, that’s a good one.


The earth is flat.


There’s a two ones that I just, that one to my mind.

It was, it’s funny that you bring up Occam’s razor, you know, because yeah, uh, you know, people come to mind, you know, who, and yet there’s this saying that truth is stranger than fiction.


You follow me in that context when I, when I, when I, and here’s, here’s where I was going in some ways when I think, I think, I think we tend to think of government and we think of it now with the United States government, but there’s a part of me that goes back even further to Jesus Christ and his death and what happened to him and that governmental agency, if you will, that was the Pharisees, you know, basically saying, and this would fit, you know, this doesn’t fit Occam’s razor because it would make sense that his disciples came and took him during the night, you know, but what we would believe as truth is far more complex than just as disciples came and got him at night.


I mean, I disagree.

I think the simplest answer is like, how do you explain all this stuff?

Well, because an angel came rolled back the thing and he walked out.

That’s the simplest, but it’s not the most, I don’t know what’s, what’s it?

Another word.



No, that’s what you’re saying.

Like, it’s easy basically to convince a person that no, it has nothing to do with supernatural behavior.

It has everything to do with this, you know, conspiracy of the disciples and this is all part of their plan, you know, that.

Of his followers.

Throw over the government or whatever.


So it’s interesting as I think about it from that context, this whole conspiracy theory dynamic has gone on for a long time.


Whenever I don’t want some truth, and I’m not saying it’s a part of every conspiracy, but whenever I don’t want some truth revealed, I may make up an adulterated story that basically explains what happened so that the truth is less prevalent or questioned.


When I think about that, what you just said and kind of a lot of the beginnings of conspiracies and stuff, or even real conspiracies like JFK, whatever, even that story with Oppenheimer, for me, if the genesis of the story has to do with man’s ambition, it doesn’t surprise me.


Like it to me that does that is a simple answer.

Does that make sense?


I hear where you’re coming from.

But when it becomes this elaborate, like multi government, you know, approach the kind of secretly make everyone take a vaccine, I can’t so it’s really hard for me to believe because that requires so many people to be on the same page that traditionally wouldn’t be, you know, and it would, and it would so many people would have to be on the same nefarious type page.


Well, there’s this in their mind is not nefarious, right?

Well, there would be this, you know, completely diabolical regime, if you will, that is all united in this endeavor in order for some of these conspiracies to basically happen.


Which I don’t think is impossible.

I guess I’m not even trying to say that.

I’m just saying.


I don’t know.

Like the disciples, that whole thing, the fact that, you know, it goes back to kind of the Pharisees humanity and their ambitions and how he was stepping on their toes and again, not surprising to me.


Because I think when we get or even the Oppenheimer story, he got embarrassed and therefore he held a vendetta, which he then took into every corner of what he was doing in the office and stuff.

And I don’t know, like those things to me are very simple answers where usually, yeah, I think the story that this guy was telling about Oppenheimer to all these corners was very complicated and conspiracy minded about how he had, you know, he was a communist.

That was the big thing is that he was actually delivering information to the communists.

Like that was what it required just this really intense level of conspiracy that they had to basically drum up.

And that was the drama, right?

Like he got lots of security clearance due to dubious evidence, right?


So that’s relationships to the communist party connections.


So again, the two sides to believe there, right, is that he’s a communist.

He’s secretly doing this and it requires this intense level of espionage that, you know, Oppenheimer’s a genius, but is he a genius in two areas?

Like, you know, I mean, it’s, you’re requiring this level of belief or you can say, or the party that’s pushing this is really upset and has this personal vendetta and ambition and to me, that’s much simpler to believe.


Anyway, I don’t know.

So what do you do when you come across something like that for you personally?

Yeah, I know you’re going to ask.

I again, usually I don’t pretend that this is the proper way to handle it.

But usually my first thought is I don’t believe it.


Until there’s, I don’t even know what the until is.

I just feel like there’s so many conflicting viewpoints in so many areas, big and small, that I like to hear, I like to hear it all.

I want to hear both sides.

I want to hear, you know, what the conflicting sides are saying about the other side.

To me, that’s where it’s like the nugget of truth.

We’ve talked about so many times in between the polarizing viewpoints.


It’s like, I bet you it’s in there, but I’m pretty sure it’s not coming from you.

Because you’re really strong on this side.

And pretty sure it’s not coming from them because they’re really strong on that side.

So let me hear what you have to say.

Let me hear it, you know?


And I’ll talk with me.

Yeah, and I’ll consider what your thoughts are.

And I’ve had multiple conversations with friends over the years about stuff that they believe pretty strongly.

And I really want to hear what they’re saying because they’re people I trust, I love, you know?


Yeah, all right.


All right.

You know, and that’s kind of how I take it.

And then I’m going to ruminate on.

And that’s the other thing too, is like, I’m not willing to join the fight.

Like the army that’s building right now is like, no, I’m not there, but I’ll hear you, you know, taking into consideration in the next.

However long as I’m trying to process this thing, does that?

I don’t know.

No, it makes sense.

I forget the guy’s name, uh, Shucks, but the movie National Treasure, the guy.

Nicholas Cage?

No, the other guy.

The young kid?

The kid that’s with him that has the glasses.

He has the book.

I don’t remember his name.

No, but either way, you know, I think we all have a friend that’s like that person, you know, that’s just has their kind of that conspiracy minded thing that goes up.

And you know, it’s like, I think there’s something to be said for being able to hear those individuals at times that kind of create that thought process, that balance, entertainment, maybe even at times, you know, it’s like really and still be able to have the conversation.


And yet, you know, not letting it take us so far right, so far left that we’re kind of just getting lost in the weeds.

Because I think, and this is, I guess this is the, we can talk about it from a more humorous standpoint or, you know, even, even serious in the, in the, you know, the complexity of, you know, humanism as far as pride and, you know, but I think there’s, there’s something to be said for also this anxiety, yeah, that can be created, you know, around these things.

It’s like, yeah, there are these diabolical forces in play and there’s nothing we can do about that.


And the movie conspiracy theory, he had like eight padlocks on his door and they all operated differently and he only opened them one at a time in a very specific way and on, you know, like, sure.

So yeah, and like he was a very anxious person.

And that’s the thing that I think, you know, makes me feel for people.

And I think, you know, as I, as I’m thinking about it, even, you know, an aging population, I think part of the aging process is this maybe growing fear or, you know, desire for safety as I’m less able to protect myself to a certain degree.

And I, and I, what it is.

Well, I mean, it’s, I mean, it’s more, it’s more complex than that.

What, what is the magnetizing behavior of getting older and being attached to CNN or Fox News?

Like, what’s going on there psychologically that?

But I think that’s a decent.

Yeah, I think, I think there is this desire to know, you know, or to have a source that I can know is truth because it’s hard to discern.

And you know, and I think that’s where it makes it difficult, you know.

So here’s a question.

This is a rabbit trailer.

Are you cool with that?

Oh, yeah.


It’s specific to this.

That’s all rabbit.

Instead of a squirrel.

Elder generation.

Fox News are seeing it this specific thing.

Like, it’s a very common thing.

Like me and many of my friends, my age are all kind of in this, be like, like, place of mourning as we see our parents become more and more lost in their network of choice and like really sticking to those conspiracies really.

I mean, a lot of it, it really is, you know, it’s like, why are you so convinced?

Like it’s, I guess my question would be, do you think it’s generating?

Like, I think it’s a very, very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

But I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

I think it’s a very important question.

It’s all about journalistic integrity.

Journalistic integrity.

This podcast tells the truth, folks.

That’s good.

Yes, I think in this, and I think that’s where I feel, I think that’s what makes this topic important to me because I think there is a certain fun entertainment that can happen when we say, well, I hadn’t thought about it like that, but that doesn’t mean that I have to take off and run with it.

Therefore, I think there is that part of us.

When we do, it’s like, oh, I hadn’t thought about that.

Well, what about that?


What about that?


I think it can be almost a form of addiction if you will.

I have to, I almost spend an ordinate amount of time second guessing myself and other people.


You know, too.

And you’re confirming.



So it’s like, in an ordinate amount of time doing both.


To where there’s this point where, no, there has to be more.


You’re just not, you’re holding out on me.


And granted, yeah, there’s, in every conversation, there are errors in omission that I didn’t say something, but it wasn’t that I was denying the fact that it happened.

It was just not important enough for me to convey at that moment based on my perspective.

But yet that doesn’t mean that there is another side of the story that’s completely opposite of what I’m saying based on what I omitted.


I’m intentionally omitting too high that whole other side of the story.




I think too, just thinking about this whole concept of conspiracy is how it kind of appeals to us in this almost fun way.

No, I agree.

At first.

You know, and then I think it can drag us into the things that we.



Pool was that kid’s last name, wasn’t it?

Like Randy Pool or something.

Which kid?

Uh, in National Treasure.

Oh, was it?

Something like that.

But yeah, it’s like that’s why I came to mind.

That’s like Randy Pool.


But yeah.

Like it’s almost fun.


Like especially in movies, right?

They kind of make it enticing and almost humorous and whatever.

But there’s some very real negatives to getting lost in that.

And you know, that’s kind of what we’re referring to.

I guess I just had this thought when you were talking about that.

I would argue that anything that opens our mind more to more potential possibilities, maybe isn’t a bad thing.

I feel like what happens though is once you.



I’m more shopping this time.

Yeah, yeah.

This is your brainstorming at this point.

I get you.

But once you latch on to, well, this is probably it.

I’m going to chase this one.

Your brain starts to close in, right?


You say, I’m going to find the answers.

So I think that’s one of the things that I appreciate about conversations with friends and even hearing CNN side of the story and then Fox is like, all right, let’s hear.



I think it’s appealing to me to kind of have an idea of all the possibilities.


I hear where you’re coming from.

And I think it also plays in well with.



Again, very much workshopping this idea.

I like the grand conspiracy, which is God is in control, right?

And so I have this underlying conspiracy that trumps all conspiracies where I’m like, oh, interesting.

You know, like I could do it that way or I could do it that way.

I’m sure.

And like I believe is in control of every situation.


That’s part of my faith.




Where’s faith in conspiracy?

Very diverse.

No, I’m just kidding.


You know, the conservation.

But yeah.


So just like thinking that through, I think if it opens your mind as more possibilities, and I would argue more possibilities of how you can see God working in this world than that, that seems like a good thing.

But if you latch on to one and start becoming convinced that’s the truth, I feel like that can be dangerous in the sense that it starts closing off your brain walls to that one specific thing and you’re no longer able to hear truth coming from a different perspective because to you it’s a lie, right?


Does that?

And I think that’s a.



I think that would be what most people would have against Christianity though.

As you explain that, it’s the fact that we’re not open-minded, that there is only one way to, you know, for the salvation through Jesus Christ, that kind of thinking, it’s like, you know, you have to be open-minded to these other things.

You know, and there.



So yeah, I’m hearing what you’re coming.

I think it is healthy to be open-minded and to be able to have discourse, you know, in such a way that says, yeah, okay, hadn’t thought about it that way.

But that’s not for me.


You know.


So I think having a way that I know is true may tend to individualize my focus, which, you know, I’m not necessarily shutting off those ideas, but yet my mind is made up.


And I think at some point, regardless of what you were kind of explaining, I think once our mind is made up, we tend to narrow, which I don’t necessarily see as a bad thing, you know, as long as we’re still engaging in conversation.

You know what?


It’s kind of interesting.


I don’t think you can always do both.


Although I think you can always entertain the conversation.


But you can only do it into a certain degree.

Yeah, I agree.

I mean, this is the God card right here.

But if the thing that you are latching onto is true, then it’s okay to narrow it on it.


And it’s like, well, that’s easy for you to say, you know, but I don’t agree with you about God and all that.

I was like, well, you’re totally right.


Like, but.


You know, if the thing is true, then it’s okay to shut out the other, not true things.


Where, you know, then you got to get into, well, what’s true?

And that’s, you know, it’s bigger than this conversation.

I think we talked about truth before and it, you know, relative truth, all those kinds of things.

So you can go listen to that one if you’re alive here about truth.

But, but yeah, no, I totally agree that I do think, yeah, having the ability to have the conversation to open, even for things that I don’t agree with or believe in, like for another words, another, another way to have faith, right?

Another religion or whatever.

I think we should be open to having those conversations so that we can understand their perspective better and be able to connect it to all I see.

So it’s about faith.

Let me explain, you know, like, be able to have those connecting conversations because one of the things about debate is that you can’t win a debate until you can argue to the other side better than they can.



So I think there’s some, some value to that, right?

To be able to hear both sides and understand both sides before you pick a side, you know, you know, you know, and this is in matters outside of faith is more what I’m thinking of.

But, you know, even that, right?


Anyway, yeah, it’s kind of, you made you muddied the water by bringing it in faith.

So I did.

I did.

It’s good.

But I, but I think it’s that as we think about, you know, sides, I tend to think they’re, you know, we tend, I tend to believe there’s three sides to every story.


You know, yours, mine and what is true, you know, and so often I think that is a part of our human dynamic that we won’t necessarily know it all.


You know, that I think, and I think that’s where the entertainment, if you will, the, the fun part of conspiracy comes into play is, you know, when we don’t know it all and we can’t know it all, your ultimate, you know, God card comes into play that God does know it all, you know, and, and I think there’s something to be said for when I don’t know it kind of like when we talked about the serenity prayer, when I don’t know, when I don’t have the control to know the ability to know, you know, but yet I do know the things I know enough of the things that I need to, you know, then I can still trust God with that difference.


And what I don’t know and my opportunity, obedience to be able to do enough of what I do know, yeah, that I’m not necessarily double minded.


Or, or torn in a, in a decision that basically says, yeah, okay, this is the way I’m going to proceed.

And I’m going to proceed with this information.

And that may mean that, yeah, this election, I look at this election differently or I may, I may get vaccinated.

I may not get vaccinated.

But as for me, that’s what I’m basing on.

And I’m okay with that.

Regardless of the theories, if you will, that are out there.


Even that word as I, you know, can, you know, it’s like, it’s kind of a muddy, it’s a kind of a muddy thing, you know, when you think about a theory, it’s like, it can be true, it cannot be true.

And yet to throw the word conspiracy in front of it, it’s like, huh, okay, so this is a minority view of a theory, if you will.


Well, conspiracy typically has a negative connotation, right?

It does.

But it’s based on like a fringe from my perspective.

It’s not like a majority view.

It’s like there’s a fringe and it’s like, you know, those individuals.

Well, you know what majority means, right?

It’s one more than the other part, right?


And I think so often that’s even that view is we don’t necessarily think about it as right more.

We think about it as one versus the 99.


And even scripture talks about how important the one is over the 99 and being able to recognize, okay, how do we value that individual or the fact that we may be that individual in certain cases?


I think that’s from a government perspective that is one of the unfortunate realities I’ve come to see, you know, as they get older.

I mean, we talked about it once when we were talking about electric cars.

But like, there’s a certain amount of work the government has to do to get everyone on the same page in order to move forward with any kind of legislation, you know what I mean?

And so it by nature almost has to normalize people’s thoughts on things to some to a majority degree, right?

I do.

One, one more than the rest, right?


And so you that’s kind of the nature of a government that operates that way, right?

Like kind of the government by the people, so to speak and that kind of thing.

To where there could be a lot of viable alternatives, but we decided this is the one we’re going with and we have to push this one, we have to sell this one as the only and the best and everything else is wrong because that’s the only way to get the legislation through.

That’s the only way to convince the American public that this is direction to go.

It’s really kind of creating this villain character of the other side and creating this hero characteristic of this side, which again, I think of the vaccines as a perfect example, but like, you know, electric cars, you and I have talked about or whatever.

I think whenever you latch on to what the government’s saying, I think it’s worth considering the fact that they’re that’s an agenda.

It has to be by nature.

That’s how the government works is agenda based and that’s how you garner the support.

You know what I mean?

And I think when we lose sight of that, we just say, well, they’re saying it’s so it must be true gets a little bit misguided.

And then vice versa when you’re like, no, they’re saying it’s so it can’t be true is also misguided.

I think that that to me is more the Occam’s razor thing where it’s like the amount of effort it’s going to take for a majority to be gained on completely bunk, not true things.

It seems silly to me to even consider a lot of times, you know what I mean?

Again, the vaccines come to mind to just say like the side that acts like it’s crazy that that went down just just just completely crazy.

How could they possibly like, well, you’re ignoring.

I feel like reality, which is this is, you know, that’s a conspiracy in my mind to say there’s some nefarious thing behind it all.

And it’s not just there is.

I mean, maybe, maybe.

Ultimately, too, as much as I believe theologically and theicotic is in control, I also believe in the devil.

And, you know, the Bible talks about we don’t fight against flesh and blood, but about principalities and powers the air.

And so I’m also not surprised if that that there could be conspiracies, but I believe when that’s true and from an evil perspective, it’s because it’s coming from an nefarious character who’s much smarter than us and has been around a lot longer than us.

And it has a plan in place that’s much bigger and longer, been planned longer than you’ve been alive.

So the fact that you think you got to figure it out is probably.

It’s more diabolical than we realize.

Yes, exactly.


And yet I don’t fear that.

No, and that’s a great because I think, you know, there, there we can be aware that there are individuals who have a diabolical agenda to a certain degree, whether it’s an ideology or whatever.

But yeah, there is this aspect that we don’t have to live in fear of that or what that might do to us because ultimately there is a plan in place that, you know, will trump at all, as you said, you know.

And if you don’t have that, then I just can see why you would be latching on to anything that could be true, whether it’s Fox News CNN or 4chan or whatever it is to be able to say, I need to know what’s true.

And then finding enough, you know, tidbits that satisfy you, right, that make you feel like, okay, I feel like I have a hold on truth now.

And so I’m going to keep chasing this and holding on to this, you know what I mean?

It’s not surprising to me that there are so many bit avenue truth sellers, right?

Because we’re all looking and that’s built into us.

I mean, from a cosmic God perspective, it’s built into us to search for truth and desire truth.

You know what I mean?


And if you find it in the wrong spot, you know, or you will, like there’s no good spot except one.

So if you find it anywhere but that, you’re going to be shortsighted.


I’m thinking about, yeah, you can, yeah, if you find truth in the wrong spot, I’m not sure you’re in the wrong spot if you’re actually finding truth.

But you can be in a difficult spot and still.



I guess I’ll put it in quote unquote truth, right?


No, exactly.

But yeah, that’s where it’s like when you find true truth, if I may say so, it’s always, yes, it’s always a good thing.

And you can trust it.

And yeah, at the same time, that’s where the, and I think that’s where the faith dynamic comes into play.

As you alluded to that, I think each of these aspects take a certain amount of faith to be able to say, okay, yeah, I’m believing this one dynamic or I’m believing a complexity of dynamics or I’m going to the other side and I’m believing that dynamic.




You made me think of scientists and science and theories and hypothesis.


No hypothesis.

The signed up piece of truth and science, like this always happens.



I found truth.

It always happens.

But your theory and your hypothesis is about why, right?


That can vary wildly and if it’s based on the wrong thing that’s not true, that theory will bear out false over time, right?


And I think that’s very true of conspiracy theories too, that there are elements of truth, right?

There’s something you found that’s true.

But your explanation for it is wrong.

So your theory is wrong.

So you know what I mean?

Over time it will bear out that no, that wasn’t true.

And I think that’s the key too is like we do find truth all the time, little nuggets of truth, but and then we’ll.



Based on where our foundation is, can be a significant difference in how I see that truth, which again is what you said, there’s your truth, my truth and the truth.

So when I look at that truth in between us, I see it from my perspective and it becomes my truth, it becomes a relative version of the real thing.


And so do you.

You know, no matter how clearly we see it, we still only see the version of it that we see from our angle, right?



A lot of things are faceted to the point of I only see them from a certain vantage point.

And I think that’s the beauty of talking with other people.

Having conversations like this, even about conspiracy theory.

So like you say, as we bring that in, yeah.


And that’s what this podcast is about.

It’s like getting out of my seat, going to sit in years for a minute so I can look at that facet.




And being able to hold on to that and see it for what it is and the value that it has based on that facet of truth.

And making that thing in the middle a little clearer.

It’s a real truth because now I got a little bit of view of it from your perspective and it helps enhance my view of it.


Because I hadn’t thought about it that way before.


Well, thanks for sharing, Justin.


On the whole conspiracy, we should have had a little more.

I was thinking about that.

I mean, Kennedy is a good one, but yeah.

Well, I guess we don’t want to get too distracted in that.

And I appreciate you bringing the up and high.


That’s a good movie.

And do we even had some good movie referrals here?


I thought, yeah.


Was the other one with Mel Gibson?

Oh, yeah.

Conspiracy theory.


That was it.

Conspiration theory.

Oh, there you go.

This is how we see it.