Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

So what were you conspirating about?

Mark:

Well, no, I was thinking about it in the context of uh valuable information.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

How do we how do we discern Whether something’s valuable or not valuable.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And how often do we get sidetracked by Entertaining information. Does that make sense in the whole?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because we can we can have a bunch of thoughts. Well, did that really happen? Did that really happen? And what about this? And and I think and I think that’s what makes sometimes discerning truth you know, or what is valuable to me, it’ll a little more difficult because sometimes it’s not as entertaining.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, in a lot of cases we we we desire in some ways to be entertained.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think also we have a natural proclivity to Like drama and gossip and like and uh you know, kinda all those little like kind of seedy feelings of like, ooh, something’s up and I know about it and I’m on the inside, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And it’s funny that you mentioned that because it was uh as as you were mentioning those very words, even the Bible come to mind for me. You know, this uh I in my uh devotional this morning it talked about the uh the cosmic drama

Justin:

Nice.

Mark:

The unfolding cosmic drama of, you know, creation at the beginning, you know, but then you still have, you know, this redemption and, you know, and And end times, you know, but yeah, in the midst of it all, there’s these personal situations that at times are seedy, if you will, using your word. You know, and I was thinking about that from that aspect of the whole dynamic of conspiracy theory.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, where does that come from? Where, you know, that that process? Because I think, you know We tend to we tend our lives are more or our circumstances, we can recognize in this cosmic drama that there’s more complexity. sometimes than we’re we’re often given. Yeah. You know, the or the we desire. And that becomes and because I think drama or being dramatic can have almost a negative connotation.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

But yet there is this part of our lives that is a certain journey or drama, if you will. And it’s like you think about all of the, well, not all of the, but m you know, when you think about historic events, you know, there is this complexity. You know, what when we when you think of conspiracy theory, what’s the what’s the what’s one of the the primary ones that come to mind for you?

Justin:

The movie.

Mark:

The movie? Is there a movie called The Conspiracy? Oh wow.

Justin:

With Mel Gibson and you should watch it ‘s really good.

Mark:

Oh wow. Yeah. Didn’t

Justin:

he’s like uh I don’t know, he’s kinda like on the spectrum kind of guy and he’s you know, tr struggles to hold down a job and he’s kinda likable, but he’s also just kind of uh out there, you know.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

And he has these very ornate theories, you know, conspiracy theories about what’s going on. And of course he’s crazy, you know, and like we you kinda everyone just kinda smiles and winks at him, you know, that kind of thing. And then at some point in the movie, like it turns out he’s right and they like capture him and you know, lock him away kind of thing. And

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah. Sounds pretty I I need to rewatch. It’s been a long time. I can’t even remember it fully, but it was really fascinating. But it it like played into that desire we have to like there’s something behind the door.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, that no one’s telling us, but you know what? We know. You know?

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

yeah, and then some like real ones that I was spitting off earlier when we were you were asking me about is like uh The what was the first one I said? Oh, uh 911. There’s a lot of conspiracy theories around that and you know whether things were planned or not planned and who planned what and kind of the implications of all that. Um and then well or f well like I think one specific one that I remember hearing is that nine eleven was planned specifically by the U government to provide an opportunity to attack the Middle East for go oil or something like that. Right. So that’s like one one example, for instance. Um

Mark:

just hearing you talk about that, it’s like we should have a call-in type dynamic.

Justin:

Tell us your conspiracy theories, your favorite ones, yeah. Yeah, and then uh ob obviously COVID, you know, tsh all all sides, just a lot of conspiracy theories about how, you know we need more vaccines and we don’t need vaccines and yeah, you know, uh they’re forcing this on us for some nefarious reason that they’re not telling us and vice versa, you know, the people who don’t want you take a vaccine.

Mark:

Population control.

Justin:

Right. And then vice versa. The people who don’t want you to take the vaccine or there’s a conspiracy on their side why they don’t want you to and you’re just falling for it kind of thing. Like it’s just, man, so much.

Mark:

No, I gotta get caught up on my conspiracies.

Justin:

I’m doing it for you.

Mark:

Yeah, I guess so. I guess so.

Justin:

Uh you mentioned JFK.

Mark:

Yeah, I guess my uh when I tend to think of that I I’m tending to, you know, go back more historical type thing, you know, ’cause we were we were actually, you know, in Dallas. And you know, and I’d been in that

Justin:

grassy knoll.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, been to that spot, been to the library, you know, the window, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Saw all that and you know, of course you’re

Justin:

Well what’s the window mean? ‘Cause I That’s

Mark:

in other words there’s uh the

Justin:

shooter supposed to

Mark:

that’s where Lee Lee no Lee Harvey Oswald was linking. Yes. Ah, I apologize. Yeah. No. Who killed Abraham Lincoln? Yeah, I was right. Yeah. John Wilkes, John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln. I apologize.

Justin:

Who killed JFK?

Mark:

It’s gonna be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Justin:

Dang it. I was supposed to say it out loud. I didn’t. I have it on. Sorry, you don’t get to know everyone. No, you’re right. It’s Lee Harvia. At least that’s who you know

Mark:

And then the whole thing, you know, why Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald the way he did, you know, that whole kind of thing, you know Yeah.

Justin:

I I’m pretty rusty on that whole thing.

Mark:

That’s okay. But like you say, that was interesting.

Justin:

But what’s the take on why he did it? Something to do with the mob or like

Mark:

Yeah, uh that part uh evades me at the moment. But it’s still the fact that there could have been another person on the grassy knoll type thing, you know, that he didn’t act alone and Yeah.

Justin:

A a recent news spin.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Yes. To this.

Mark:

See there is an interest. There I can see your eyebrows just raise as you know.

Justin:

Did you know this little piece of juiciness Uh, no, actually it’s in the movie um Oppenheimer.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

I just saw that um recently and at the end so this guy you know, they paint this picture of this guy who kinda wants to ruin Oppenheimer because Oppenheimer kind of humiliated him some ways and he always had a vendetta against him. So he tried to basically tear down Oppenheimer’s reputation and he ended up basically doing it getting his security clearance revoked and stuff.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And which was a pretty big that basically ended his career because that’s where his career was, right? Um Anyway, at the end they have this scene where they’re uh you know the the I’m trying to remember how it went, but basically it was in the cr congressional hearing to determine whether he could be a cabinet member. Okay. And that’s you know, it’s almost always just a formal thing and then they get in, right? Uh in this case, he didn’t. And that there was this one A few people that just said, no, we see what you’re doing here. We know, you know, you have this vend uh what clearly he had kind of a CD background. This is the movie. I you know, I h whether history paints it exactly like this, I don’t know. But um at the end they he he asks his eighties like who is that person who voted who got people to vote against me? And he says Some upstart from, you know, wherever is John F. Kennedy. And they kinda left you with that. With and this guy who’s super angry and like has these vendettas and stuff. So it’s like Okay, all right. You see the picture they’re trying to paint that he you know he was kind of the architect behind it all. Because again, this movie was very much about how this guy architected Oppenheimer’s destruction, but the whole time was patting Oppenheimer on the back like I’m on your side I’m your buddy kind of thing.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

So that I thought that was kind of I like your I like those little teasers, you know. I don’t know if that’s a real theory that they worked in or it’s just a fun thing, but there’s there’s some new juicy tidbit for you.

Mark:

A new juicy tissue uh tidbit based on old history.

Justin:

That’s right. It’s a new movie on old history.

Mark:

So yeah. Any others that come to mind?

Justin:

Um Yeah, I spouted off several and I’m already forgetting what they were.

Mark:

Well you said hanging chads.

Justin:

Oh yeah, hanging chads, yeah. Basically,

Mark:

yes.

Justin:

Which, you know, voting election fraud is an ongoing one that happens every election ’cause if your guy doesn’t win it’s m it’s it you know, you wanna find out why and I mean th so this kind of ties back to what you were saying is Typically the conspiracy theories uh fester where we want to believe something that we don’t think is being told, you know?

Mark:

Sure. Yeah.

Justin:

And Here’s the the bummer. It’s like we’re not being told a lot. Like we know that. Like there’s to me that’s obvious.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um in terms of governmental secrets and stuff like that. Um

Mark:

when you say governmental secrets, what do you mean?

Justin:

Well classified information. You know, that there’s a whole, you know, ton of stuff in that category and Um, you know what’s cool is as the country gets older we start declassifying stuff and you find out what the truth was. And um the thing that I always think about when it comes to constraints I don’t know if you asked this, but I’m gonna answer anyway.

Mark:

I’m gonna answer this question before you ask it.

Justin:

I know it’s coming Um is how how do you deal with you know these various conspiracies, you know, whatever. And um I really like the Occam’s razor um thing, which is basically saying the simplest solution is almost always the best.

Mark:

Mm

Justin:

and so the problem with conspiracy theories is they often architect these elaborate insane schemes which And by insane. I’m sorry if you you know, maybe you don’t feel insane believing it, but for a the problem is they require so many people to keep this secret, right? that at some point you just go, uh I don’t I don’t think that’s even remotely possible, if that makes sense.

Mark:

No, and I and I and I

Justin:

like lizard people That’s another good one. Sorry. Yeah? The earth is flat. Sorry, those are two uh ones that I just uh popped into my mind.

Mark:

It was it’s funny that you bring up Occam’s razor, you know, because yeah. Uh you know, people come to mind, you know, who and yet there’s this saying that truth is stranger than fiction

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me in that context. When I when I and it here’s here’s where I I was going in some ways when I th I tend I think we tend to think of government. And we think of it now with uh the United States government, but there’s a part of me that goes back even further. to Jesus Christ and his death and what happened to him and that governmental agency, if you will that was the Pharisees, you know, basically saying and oh this would fit, you know, this doesn’t fit Occam’s razor because it would make sense that his disciples came and took him during the night. You know, but what we would believe as truth is far more complex than just his disciples came and got him at night.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean I disagree. I think the simplest answer is like how do you explain all this stuff? Well, because an angel came rolled back the thing and he walked out. That’s the simplest, but it’s not the most I don’t know. What’s what’s it? Another word, right? Like I know what you’re saying. Like it’s easy to convince a person that no, it has nothing to do with supernatural behavior. It has everything to do with this you know, consp c conspiration of the disciples and this is all part of their big plan, you know, to his followers.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s interesting as I think about it from that context. This this whole conspiracy theory uh dynamic has is has gone on for a long time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Whenever I don’t want some truth, and and I’m not saying it’s a part of every conspiracy, but whenever I don’t want some truth revealed I may make up a an adulterated story that basically explains what happened so that the truth is less prevalent or or questioned.

Justin:

When I think about that, what you just said and kind of a lot of the beginnings of conspiracies and stuff. Or even real conspiracies like JFK, whatever. Even that story with Oppenheimer. For me, if the Genesis of the story has to do with man’s ambition. It doesn’t surprise me. Right? Like it to me that does that is a simple answer. Does that make sense? But when it becomes this elaborate, like multi-government, you know, approach to kind of secretly make everyone take a vaccine, I get so It’s really hard for me to believe because that requires so many people to be on the same page that traditionally wouldn’t be

Mark:

Yeah. And it would and it would so many people would have to be on the same nefarious type page. Yeah. You know, where there’s this

Justin:

in their mind it’s not nefarious.

Mark:

Well, there would be this, you know, completely diabolical regime, if you will, that is all united in this endeavor. In order for some of these conspiracies to basically happen.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Which I don’t think is impossible. I I guess I I I’m not even trying to say that. I’m just saying Um, yeah, I don’t know. Like the the the disciples that whole thing, the fact that You know, it goes back to kind of the Pharisees’ humanity and their ambitions and how he was r stepping on their toes and again, not surprising to me. Sure. Because I think when we get Or even the Oppenheimer store. He got embarrassed and therefore he held a vent mm a vendetta which he then took into every corner of what he was doing in the office and stuff and I don’t know, like those things to me are very simple s answers where usually yeah, I think the story that this guy was telling about Oppenheimer to all these corners was very complicated and conspiracy minded about how he had you know he he was a communist. That was the big thing is that he was actually delivering information to the communists. Like that that was what it required just this really intense level of conspiracy that they had to basically drum up and that was the drama, right? Like he got he lost his security clearance due to dubious evidence, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Um or past um relationshipships to the communist party uh the connections, yeah. So again, the two sides to believe there, right, is that he’s a communist, he’s secretly doing this, and it requires this intense level of espionage that, you know, Oppenheimer’s a genius, but Is he a genius in two areas? Like, you know what I mean? So it’s you’re acquiring this level of belief. Or you can say, or the party that’s pushing this is really upset and has this personal vendetta and ambition and to me that’s much simpler to believe.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Anyway, I don’t know So

Mark:

what do you do when you come across something like that for you personally?

Justin:

Yeah, I knew you were gonna ask.

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

I again usually I don’t pretend that this is the proper way to handle it, but usually my first thought is I don’t believe it.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Like until There’s I don’t even know what the intel is. I just feel like there’s so many conflicting viewpoints in so many areas, big and small. Um That I like to hear I like to hear it all. I want to hear both sides. I want to hear, you know, what the conflicting sides are saying about the other side. To me that’s where Uh it’s like the nugget of truth we’ve talked about so many times in between the polarizing viewpoints.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like I betcha it’s in there. But I’m pretty sure it’s not coming from you. ‘Cause you’re really strong on this side. And pretty sure it’s not coming from them ’cause they’re really strong on that side. So let me hear what you have to say. Let me let me hear it, you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I’ll talk with you. that they believe pretty strongly and I really want to hear what they’re saying because they’re people I trust, I love, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um so it’s like, okay, all right, okay, all right, you know. And that’s kind of how I take it. And then I’m gonna ruminate out and that’s the other thing too, is like I’m not willing to join the fight. Like the the the army that’s building right now. It’s like no, I’m not I’m not there, but I’ll I’ll hear you and I’ll taken in consideration in the next however long as I’m trying to process this thing.

Mark:

No, it makes sense. And I think in a uh I forget the guy’s name. Oh shucks. But uh the movie National Treasure. Oh yeah. The the the guy

Justin:

Nicolas Cage.

Mark:

No the the the other guy. The

Justin:

young kid?

Mark:

The kid that’s with him that has the glasses. He has the book. No, but either way, you know, I think we all have a friend that’s like that person. You know, that’s just has there kind of that conspiracy minded thing that goes ab and you know it’s like I think there’s something to be said for being able to hear those individuals at times that kind of create that thought process, that balance, entertainment maybe even at times. You know, it’s like really, and still be able to have the conversation.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And yet, you know, not letting it take us so far right, so far left that we’re kind of just getting lost in the weeds. And because I think And this is, I guess this is the we can talk about it from a more humorous standpoint or, you know, even even serious in the in the you know the complexity of you know, uh humanism as far as pride and, you know, but I think there’s there’s something to be said for also this anxiety

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

that can be created, you know, around these things. It’s like, yeah, there are these diabolical forces in play and there’s nothing we can do about that.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. In the movie Conspiracy Theory, he had like eight padlocks on his door and they all operated differently and he only opened them one at a time in a very specific way and on, you know, like

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So yeah, and like he was a very anxious person.

Mark:

And that’s and that’s the thing that I think, you know, makes me feel for people. And I and I think, you know, as I as I’m thinking about it, even, you know, an aging population, I think part of the aging process is this maybe growing fear or you know desire for safety as I’m less able to protect myself to a certain degree. And I and I

Justin:

Is that what it is?

Mark:

Well, I ‘m yeah. It’s I mean it’s more it’s more complex than that.

Justin:

behavior of getting older and being attached to CNN or Fox News. Like w what’s going on there psychologically that I but I think that’s a decent

Mark:

Yeah, I think I think there is this desire to know you know, or to have a source that I can know is truth because I it’s hard to discern. And, you know, and I think that’s where it makes it difficult, you know

Justin:

So here’s a question. This is a rabbit trailer. Are we are you cool with that?

Mark:

Oh yeah, rabbit.

Justin:

Specific to this.

Mark:

I saw a rabbit instead of a squirrel.

Justin:

Elder generation attaching to Fox News or CNN. me and many of my friends my age are all kind of in this be li like uh place of mourning as we see our parents become more and more lost in their network of choice and like really sticking to those conspiracies really. I mean a lot of it it really is, you know. Um it’s like, why are you so convin like it’s I guess my question would be, do you think it’s generational in the sense of this generation and what you just said, like the way information has transitioned and not only transitioned to a different form of media, online, social media, that whole thing. But also the um who the good guys are in the information wars is way less clear now. So y where growing up a lot of that generation had their Walter Cronkite or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you knew where you could go to get the real truth.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And in a lot of ways it was probably True-ish, right? Like

Mark:

more balanced.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it’s like journalistic integrity was this idea that they’ll come to us because we do tell the truth. And like that was uh kind of a hallmark of a lot of networks or a lot of what they were trying to do is like, who can be more true?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, where that’s That doesn’t pay the bills anymore, right?

Mark:

It doesn’t create the drama.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

So I I guess that would be my that was that’s my rabbit trail question. So what is it about this specific older generation that’s attaching to these things and not letting go and and c like clinging it to it with like a death grip of like Does that make sense?

Mark:

I hear I hear where you’re coming from, and I’m I’m not necessarily sure that it’s just the older generation, but I hear where you’re coming from in that Um, there is a desire to kind of align myself, you know, with a specific network based on my views matching their views. And I think in some ways it’s very similar to our social media dynamic where, you know, we’re drawn towards people with like perspectives. Yeah. And that and so I think that’s where, you know, we tend to be fed, you know, and so we we go in that direction and then that becomes um It’s almost a an more than an alliance, but it’s it’s a similar to an al what I would consider an alliance. It’s like allegiance almost. That’s that’s the word I was looking for.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s like a silo. We talk about silo information silos and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, we all we often associate those with online and Facebook and getting stuck in their algorithms or whatever, but I also think that’s true of the these networks where they create this cyclone effect of you agree with me, I agree with you.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And because you agree with me, you’ll also be interested in this piece of information. It’s like, well I agree with you. It’s like

Mark:

Yes. No, and that’s and I think that’s where that a lot of that comes from.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, I think it’s a it’s another unfortunate part. Uh not necessarily of social media in general, but I just I just don’t think we were as prepared as we could have been. in some ways for the social media dynamic because I think that’s another area yeah where

Justin:

for sure

Mark:

where conspiracy is just rampant

Justin:

Yeah, I wanna be clear. I don’t think there’s something unique about the older generation who ca who watches CNN and and and Fox News. That’s unique from the young person who sticks stays in four chan, you know uh uh um what do you call those? Forum and kind of buys into all of the whatever the n sure the thing is today, right? Like whether it’s uh white supremacy, for example, got basically captured a whole young generation with this age old, you know. philosophy, but it seemed fresh and new ’cause of the channels they were in. I I I don’t think there’s a difference between that and the box news and the CNN thing. Yeah. To be clear.

Mark:

No, that’s fair.

Justin:

I was j I guess I was just more curious what the phenomena specifically was about kind of drifting more and more to those two

Mark:

yeah because you’re seeing as you get older. You’re seeing it in your parents who happen to be of that generation type.

Justin:

Yeah. Like so many of our parents. Like we we’re all kind of commiserate together like Why is my parents, you know, always telling me from the what’s on that network?

Mark:

And the interesting part of it when you think of when I think about it that way, you know, I think about my parents, but I also think about the the family members, you know, or the conflict between family members that come from the talking points of two separate you know, entities because one is polarized in this direction and one is tends to be polarized in that direction. So when they come together, it’s like the same talking points are you know, are what comes about.

Justin:

Using I mean using your word, polarized. So right? It’s the this the opposite ends of the poles on a magnet. So they do they repel. Like they don’t connect. They cannot, you know, it’s like And that’s what you think about that Thanksgiving drama, right?

Mark:

No, I hear you. Yeah. Opposite ends actually attract, but same ends didn’t repel, but still you get the idea. Yeah, I got the idea.

Justin:

That kind of breaks the analogy. So don’t shh Are you conspiring against me, Mark?

Mark:

Not intentionally. Not intentionally. It’s all about integrity. It’s all about

Justin:

journalistic integrity. This podcast tells the truth, folks.

Mark:

But yes, I think, you know, in this and I and I think that’s where I feel I think that’s that’s what makes this topic you know, important to me because I think there is a a certain fun entertainment that can happen, you know, when we say, oh wow, I hadn’t thought about it like that. But that doesn’t mean that, you know, I have to take off and run with it and therefore, you know, I did and I think there is that part of us that’s When we do, it’s like, oh, I hadn’t thought about that. Well, what about that?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And what about that?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think it can be of almost a a form of addiction, if you will. that um I I have to I almost spend uh uh inordinate amount of time second guessing

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

myself and other people.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, to

Justin:

confirming.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? So it’s like in an ordered amount of time doing both. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, to where there’s there’s this point where No, there has to be more.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You’re just not, you’re holding out on me. You know, and and granted, yeah, there’s there’s, you know, in every conversation, you know, there are errors in omission. you know, that I didn’t say something, you know, but it wasn’t that I was denying the fact that it happened. It was just not important enough for me to convey at that moment based on my, you know, perspective. But yet that doesn’t mean that there is another side of the story that’s completely opposite of what I’m saying based on what I omitted.

Justin:

Yeah, I’m intentionally omitting to hide that whole other side of the story. Right. Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. I think too, um, just thinking about this whole concept of conspiracies and how this kind of f appeals to us in this almost fun way.

Mark:

No, I I agree.

Justin:

At first, you know, and then I think it can drag us into the anxiety.

Mark:

Pool was that kid’s last name, wasn’t it? Like Randy Poole or something.

Justin:

Which kid?

Mark:

And uh and um National Treasure.

Justin:

Oh, was it?

Mark:

Something like that. But yeah, it’s it’s like that that’s why I came to mind.

Justin:

Like it’s almost fun, yeah. Like especially in movies, right? They kind of make it enticing and almost humorous and whatever, but there’s some very real negatives to getting lost in that. And you know, that’s kind of what we’re referring to. I guess My I just had this thought when you were talking about that. It I would argue that anything that opens our mind more to more potential possibilities m m maybe isn’t a bad thing I feel like what happens though is once you I’m d I’m I’m workshopping this stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

I get you I see your eyes.

Justin:

starts to close in, right? To say, I’m gonna I’m gonna find the answers. And so I think that’s one of the things that I appreciate about conversations with friends and you know, even hearing CNN side of the story and then foxes is like, all right, let’s hear I I think it’s Appealing to me to kind of have an idea of all the possibilities.

Mark:

Yep. I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin:

And I think it also plays in well with Again, very much workshopping this idea. But like the grand conspiracy, which is God is in control. Right? And so I have this underlying conspiracy that trumps all conspiracies. You know, where I’m like, oh interesting. You know, like I could do it that way, or he could do it that way, you know, and like and like I believe he’s in control of every situation. Um that’s part of my faith. So Um

Mark:

or is faith in conspiracy theory diverse? No, I’m just kidding.

Justin:

Yeah. Oh, another conspiration.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, so just like thinking that through, I think if it opens your minds to more possibilities and I would argue more possibilities of how you can see God working in this world then that that seems like a good thing. But if you latch onto one and start becoming convinced that’s the truth, I feel like that can be dangerous in the sense that it starts closing off your brain walls to that one specific thing and you’re no longer able to hear truth coming from a different perspective because to you it’s a lie. Right? Is that

Mark:

I think that would be what most people would have against Christianity though. As you explain that, it’s the fact that we’re not open-minded, that there is only one way. to you know, for the salvation through Jesus Christ, that kind of thinking. It’s like, no, you have to be open-minded to these other things, you know, and there so yeah, I’m hearing what you’re coming. I think it is healthy. to be open-minded and to be able to have discourse, you know, in such a way that says, Yeah, okay, hadn’t thought about it that way, but that’s not for me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and yet being able to I think having having a way that I know is true may tend to individualize my focus, which you know, I’m I’m I’m not necessarily shutting off those ideas, but yet my mind is made up.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I think at some point, we regardless of what you were kind of explaining, I think once our mind is made up, we tend to narrow, which I don’t necessarily see as a bad thing. You know, as long as we’re still engaging in conversation. You know, why it’s it’s kind of interesting. Yeah. I don’t think you can always do both.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Although I think you can always entertain the conversation.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

But you can only do it in to a certain degree.

Justin:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, this is the God card right here. But if the thing that you are latching onto is true, then it’s okay to narrow in on it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it’s like, well that’s easy for you to say, you know, but I don’t agree with you about God and all that. And it’s like, well You’re totally right. Like but

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know

Mark:

I do if

Justin:

the thing is true, then it’s okay to shut out the other not true things.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

And that’s where, you know, then you gotta get into well what’s true and that’s you know it’s bigger than this conversation we’ve I think we talked about truth before and it you know relative truth all those kinds of things so you can go listen to that one if you’re a hear about truth but Um but yeah, no, I totally agree that I do think, yeah, having the ability to have the conversation to open um Uh even for things that I don’t uh agree with or believe in, like for another words, another another way to have faith, right? Another religion or whatever. Um, I think we should be open to having those conversations so that we can understand their perspective better and be able to connect it to Oh, I see, so it’s about faith. Let me explain, you know, like be able to have those connecting conversations because Um, one of the things about debate is that you can’t win a debate until you can argue the other side better than they can.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. So I think there’s some some value to that, right? To be able to hear both sides and understand both sides before you pick a side, you know.

Mark:

Oh, I hear you.

Justin:

Um, you know, and and this is in matters outside of faith is more what I’m thinking of. But, you know, even that, right? Like Uh anyway. Yeah.

Mark:

It’s kind of uh

Justin:

you muddied the water by bringing in fate. So

Mark:

I did. I did.

Justin:

It’s good.

Mark:

But I but I think it’s that uh as we think about you know sides, I tend to think there, you know, we tend I tend to believe there’s three sides to every story. Yeah. You know, yours, mine, and what is true. You know, and so often I think that is a part of our human dynamic that we won’t necessarily know it all

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that I think yeah and and and I think that’s where the entertainment, if you will, the the the fun part of conspiracy comes into play is you know, when we don’t know it all and we can’t know it all. your ultimate, you know, God card comes into play that God does know it all. You know, and and I think there’s something to be said for when I don’t know it, kind of like when we talked about the serenity prayer when I don’t know, when I don’t have the control to know, the ability to know, you know, but yet I do know the things, I know enough of the things that I need to, you know, then I can still trust God with that difference.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

between what I don’t know and my um opportunity obedience to be able to do enough of what I do know

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

that I’m not necessarily double-minded.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or or torn in a in a decision that basically says, yeah, okay, this is the way I’m gonna proceed. And I’m gonna proceed with this information and that may mean that yeah, this election I look at this election differently or I may I may get vaccinated, I may not get vaccinated, but as for me, that’s what I’m basing on, and I’m okay with that. regardless of the the theories, if you will, that are out there.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Even that word, as I, you know, can sp you know, it’s like It’s kind of a muddy it’s a kind of a muddy thing, you know, when you think about a theory, it’s like it can be true, it cannot be true, and yet to throw the word conspiracy in front of it, it’s like Huh. Okay. So this is a minority view of a theory, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah. Well conspiracy typically has a negative connotation, right?

Mark:

It does, but but it’s based on like a fringe from my perspective. It’s not like a a majority view. It’s like there’s a fringe and it’s like, you know, those those individuals

Justin:

Well, you know what majority means, right? It’s one more than the other. Right.

Mark:

Yeah. And and and I think so often that’s even that view is we don’t necessarily think about it as one more. We think about it as one versus the ninety-nine.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And even scripture talks about how important the one is over the ninety-nine and being able to recognize, okay, how do we you know, value that individual or the you know, or the fact that we may be that individual in certain cases.

Justin:

Yeah. I think that’s uh from a government perspective, that is one of the unfortunate realities I’ve come to see, you know, as I get older is I mean we talked about it once when we were talking about electric cars. Um but like there’s a certain amount of work the government has to do good to get everyone on the same page in order to move forward with any kind of legislation. You know what I mean? And so it it by nature almost has to normalize people’s thoughts on things to some d to a majority degree, right? So one one more than the rest, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and so you Um that’s kind of the nature of a government that operates that way, right? Like kind of the government by the people, so to speak, and that kind of thing. Um to where there could be a lot of viable alternatives, but we decided this is the one we’re going with and we have to push this one we have to sell this one as the only and the best and everything else is wrong because that ‘s the only way to get the legislation through. That’s the only way to convince the American public that this is the direction to go. really kind of creating this villain character of the other side and creating this hero, you know, characteristic of this side, which again I think of the vaccines is a perfect example, but like, you know, uh electric cars, you know you and I have talked about or whatever and Um, I d I think whenever you latch on to what the government’s saying, I think it’s worth considering the fact that they’re That’s an agenda. It has to be by nature. That’s how gu the government works is agenda-based. And that’s how you garner the support. You know what I mean?

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

And I think when we lose sight of that and we just say, Well, they are saying it, so it must be true gets a little bit mis Misguided and then vice versa, when you’re like, no, they’re saying it so it can’t be true, is also misguided. I don’t I think That that to me is more of the Occam’s razor thing where it’s like the amount of w effort it’s gonna take for a majority to be gained on completely bunk not true things it seems silly to me to even consider a lot of times. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Again, the vaccines come to mind. Uh to just say like the side that acts like it’s crazy that that went down. Just just just completely crazy. Like how could they possibly it’s like, well you’re ignoring I feel like reality, which is this this is you know That’s a conspiracy in my mind to say there’s some nefarious thing behind it all and it’s not just

Mark:

There is.

Justin:

Right. I mean maybe, maybe. Ultimately too, as much as I believe theologically in a god who is in control. I also believe in the devil and you know, the Bible talks about we we don’t fight against flesh and blood, but about principalities and powers of the air and So I’m also not surprised if that that there could be conspiracies, but I believe when that’s true and and from an evil perspective It’s because it’s coming from a nefarious character who’s much smarter than us and has been around a lot longer than us and it has a plan in place that’s much bigger in longer been planned longer than you’ve been alive, so the fact that you think you got it figured out is probably

Mark:

It’s more diabolical than we realize.

Justin:

Exactly. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And and yet I don’t fear that.

Mark:

No, and that’s and that’s a great exam because I think, you know, there it there we can be aware that there are individuals who have a diabolical agenda to a certain degree, whether it’s an ideology or whatever. But yeah, there is this aspect that we don’t have to live in fear of that or what that might do to us ’cause ultimately there is a plan in place that, you know, will trump it all as you said, you know.

Justin:

And if you don’t have that, then I just can see why you would be latching on to anything that could be true, whether it’s Fox News CNN or 4chan or whatever it is to be able to say I need to know what’s true and then finding enough you know, tidbits that satisfy you, right? That make you feel like, okay, I feel like I have a hold on truth now, and so I’m gonna keep chasing this and holding on to this. You know what I mean? It’s not surprising to me that there are so many b avenue um truth sellers, right? Like Um, because we’re lo we’re all looking and that’s built built into us. I mean, from a cosmic God perspective, it’s built into us to search for truth and desire truth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And if you find it in the wrong spot, you know, or or you will. Like there’s the there is no good spot except one. So if you find it anywhere but that you’re gonna be short-sighted. Yeah.

Mark:

I’m thinking about yeah, you can y yeah. If you find truth in the wrong spot, I’m not sure you’re in the wrong spot if you’re actually finding truth. But I’m not sure.

Justin:

I guess I would put it in quote unquote truth, right? Yeah.

Mark:

No, I exactly. But yeah, that’s where it’s like When you find true truth, if I may say so, it’s always, yes, yeah. It’s always a good thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And you c and you can trust it. And yet at the same time, that’s where the and I think that’s where the faith dynamic comes into play.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

As you you know alluded to that. I think, you know, each of these each of these aspects take a certain amount of faith to be able to say, okay, yeah, I’m believing this one dynamic, or I’m believing a complexity of dynamics, or I’m going to the other side. And I’m believing that dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s y you made me think of scientists and science and theories and hypothesis and

Mark:

all hypotheses.

Justin:

A piece of truth in science. Like this always happens.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Interesting. I found truth. It always happens. But your theory and your hypothesis is about why, right? Like that can vary wildly and if it’s based on the wrong thing that’s not true, that theory will bear out false over time, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think uh I think that’s very true of conspiracy theories too, that there are elements of truth, right? There’s something you found that’s true, but your explanation for it is wrong. So your theory’s wrong. So you will you know what I mean? Yeah. Over time it will bear out that no, that wasn’t true. You know?

Mark:

Right. Um

Justin:

and I think that’s the key too, is like we we do find truth all the time, little nuggets of truth, but it and then we’ll We based on where our foundation is, can be a significant, you know, difference in how I see that truth.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which again is what you said. There’s Your truth, my truth, and the truth.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So when I look at the truth in between us, I see it from my perspective and it becomes my truth. It becomes a relative version of the real thing. And so do you. You know, no matter how clearly we see it, we still only see the version of it that we see from our angle. Yeah.

Mark:

Right? Yeah, yeah. Nope. I only see them from a certain vantage point. And I think that’s the beauty of talking with other people, having conversations like this, even even about conspiracy theory. So like you say, as we bring that in. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s what this podcast is about. It’s like getting out of my seat, going to sit in yours for a minute so I can look at that facet.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Exactly. And being able to hold on to that and see it for what it is and the value that it has.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Based on that facet of truth.

Justin:

And making that thing in the middle a little clearer, the real truth. Because now I got a little bit of a view of it from your perspective and it helps enhance my view of it, you know?

Mark:

Yep. Because I hadn’t thought about it that way before.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing, Justin. Yeah. On the whole conspiracy. We we we should have had a little more. I I was thinking about that. I mean, Kennedy’s a good one, but Yeah. Well, I guess we don’t want to get too distracted in that. And bring uh bring appreciate you bringing the Oppenheimer type deal into that.

Justin:

It’s a good movie.

Mark:

And well we we even had some good movie referrals here. So

Justin:

I thought yeah. Uh yeah.

Mark:

What was it what was the other one with uh Uh Mel Gibson?

Justin:

Oh yeah, conspiracy theory.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yes. Or was it conspiration theory?

Mark:

Oh, there you go. Hmm. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast.

If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.