Big decisions got you tossing and turning all night? In this episode, we (Justin and Mark) have an earnest discussion about how to approach important life decisions, specifically as people of faith.
Responding to Mark’s probing, Justin explains some of his big-decision-making process. And we talk about the value of coming to agreement with a spouse before making big decisions to prevent future resentment.
The conversation covers many practical practices you’ll have to listen in to discover!
Transcript
Justin:
How is the kombucha? It’s not quite quiet time.
Mark:
No, but it’s good. I don’t know.
Justin:
Doesn’t seem as kombucha-ey.
Mark:
E, it’s not as bitey.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
I don’t know whether it’s the mango or the passion, but one of it.
Justin:
You don’t put as much passion.
Mark:
Yeah, I don’t put any passion in mine. I probably should start putting some passion in there. It I make it with passion, but I don’t add any passion to it.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
So yeah, I should probably put some passion in there.
Justin:
So you like it or you don’t like it?
Mark:
It’s sweeter than I’m used to. Yeah, I’m not used to a sweet.
Justin:
So I figure that’s like the everyman’s kombucha.
Mark:
There you go. Mango and peach are always pretty similar to where if I had to guess, I would almost call that a peach. If I was guessing, I’d say it was peach because it is that much sweeter.
Justin:
Well, that and flavor.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
I guess your association of peach has been mashed into mango because that’s how you make yours, right?
Mark:
Or no, I don’t have peach or no.
Justin:
Exactly.
Mark:
No peach. No peach. No peach, no mango, raspberry ginger, raspberry ginger. But you were close.
Justin:
I don’t know where I got that memory from.
Mark:
That’s okay.
Justin:
Well, you should try it. Mango and peach. That sounds good.
Mark:
Yeah. I have tried blueberry. I’ve tried mixed berry.
Justin:
Have you?
Mark:
I’ve tried lemon, strawberry.
Justin:
Yeah. Raspberry ginger is your favorite.
Mark:
Raspberry ginger is yeah.
Justin:
I imagine ginger makes it a little more bitey, too.
Mark:
Yeah. Adds a little more zing, which I like. I’m more about zing than I am about passion, I think.
Justin:
Yeah, that makes sense.
Mark:
Yeah, no doubt.
Justin:
I don’t know if I’m going to keep that stuff, but we’ll see.
Mark:
Keep what stuff?
Justin:
That stuff in the episode.
Mark:
Okay. We recording now.
Justin:
We are?
Mark:
Oh, wow. Shifted over and I missed the transition. You pretty sly. Slight of hand there.
{Music}
Mark:
Welcome to how I see it with me, Mark Pratt
Justin:
and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations
~
Justin:
That’s right. So you’re going to bring some zing or some passion to today’s topic?
Mark:
Hey, you know what? I try to bring zing and passion to most topics. Yeah.
Justin:
Should tell your face.
Mark:
Was my face confusing you at the moment?
Justin:
No. Sometimes I feel like that just needs to be pulled out.
Mark:
You think so?
Justin:
Yeah, for the levity.
Mark:
It was funny because we were talking about that last night, as a matter of fact. We were talking about the fact that typically we can associate anger with people who have red hair.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
You follow me? And I think there’s something to be said also for crazy bearded people, because I think depending on a person’s beard, it’s like you just don’t know. So when you talk about you need to tell your face. That’s what came to mind for me, it’s like those moments when it’s like I’ll say something and kids sometimes the kids in the office, but sometimes it’s even out of the office. There’s two extremes because it’s like they either look at you like you’re some crazy guy. Or they’ll look at you and it’s like you can tell. Or they’ll even say, Nice beard. I have teenage kids. Just the other day when I was driving through Chickfila, it was a young kid, a young guy. He says, that’s a nice beard. It’s funny. It just cracks me up. It’s always mixed.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
It’s fun to see, but yeah, I’ve.
Justin:
Never had a luscious beard, so I can’t say. I know.
Mark:
You’ll get different experience, you’ll get different looks. Yeah. You get the clean cut crowd looks at you like, what the heck? Get out of bed. Do some shaving before you go to shave, before you go to work. Crying out loud.
Justin:
Come on.
Mark:
That military mindset. Kicks up. And then there’s the other end. It’s like yeah, that’s cool.
Justin:
The other end is like, yeah, he didn’t got out of bed and shaved.
Mark:
Yeah. That’s my kind of man that didn’t have to exactly. Styled his hair going down the road out the window.
Justin:
There you go.
Mark:
Yeah, that is that what you’re oh, yeah.
Justin:
Working there.
Mark:
Wow. I didn’t even stick it out the window this morning.
Justin:
Yeah, that’s all right.
Mark:
Keep it short enough.
Justin:
Still looks good.
Mark:
I try.
Justin:
Looks about the same as it always does.
Mark:
Exactly.
Justin:
Nicely done.
Mark:
Your hair looks good, too, though.
Justin:
Thanks. Thank you.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
All right. So what are we talking about, Mark? Well, with your zinging, your passion, we’ve.
Mark:
Talked about a lot of things already this morning.
Justin:
That’s right.
Mark:
But we talked about dirt.
Justin:
Dirt.
Mark:
Talked about ponds.
Justin:
Ponds, yeah.
Mark:
And we talked about information. And it was interesting because in the process of that, how many times a day do you think you’d find yourself in conversation with other people saying, why don’t you Google that? How many times?
Justin:
At least once today.
Mark:
Yeah. And it’s only 630, give or take.
Justin:
That’s right.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Anytime there’s a question of something that seems reasonable to be found out or able to be researched, but we don’t know it, it’s like, well, let’s Google it. Sure, yeah.
Mark:
Basically because I was thinking about that in the context of confusion or decision making, that process, if you have a difficult can you think of a difficult decision you either are in the process of making or have recently made? Sure. Yeah, sure. Care to share? I’m not asking for a personal thing, but it’s like, how do you walk me through that process for you when it’s difficult? I’m not saying about picking out your T shirt. Something more than picking out your T shirt for the morning.
Justin:
Usually Google’s not very helpful when I pick out your picking up my T shirts.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
It’s just too big of a question. I need more specifics, I guess I.
Mark:
Want you to have in mind a difficult decision.
Justin:
Difficult decision? Yeah. So, I mean, we are certainly in the middle of more than one difficult.
Mark:
Decision, but what might a difficult decision topic be.
Justin:
Changing careers.
Mark:
That’s not what I’m yeah, no. Changing careers.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
What about kids? Adolescent kids, teenage kids, where to send.
Justin:
Them to kids to school.
Mark:
Send them to school, sure.
Justin:
Yeah. Or in the case of kids, where to go to college.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
It’s a pretty big one. Buying a house. Picking a house or buying a vehicle. Really?
Mark:
Purchase yeah. Where to go to school. Yeah.
Justin:
Does that count? Are those good ones?
Mark:
Yeah, they’re all good ones. And I think that’s the thing. So often we make a number of decisions in the process of a day, and I think so many of those are made in ways that we don’t even necessarily think about. Like the T shirt, you grab whichever one’s typically on I mean, I should say I grab whichever one’s typically towards the top.
Justin:
I started grabbing from the bottom.
Mark:
Do you really?
Justin:
Yeah, the way it rotates. Otherwise, I just fresh. I would wear the same ones.
Mark:
Yeah. You’d only wear fresh T shirts.
Justin:
That’s right.
Mark:
This way you wear the ones that are outdated and get them back in circulation. Yeah. Rotating the stock.
Justin:
Yes, exactly. Because the clean ones go on top, and then they cycle all the way down.
Mark:
Well, nice job.
Justin:
You should try should interesting. Yeah. It’s really mixed things up in the Sternberg household.
Mark:
Wow, man. Now you see now you’ve affected the way I’m going to make my decision.
Justin:
Okay.
Mark:
About pulling a T shirt out of the back.
Justin:
You didn’t even have to Google it.
Mark:
Yeah, I just recently transitioned to rolling my T shirts. Oh, yeah.
Justin:
How’s that working out?
Mark:
I like it.
Justin:
Yeah. Does it fit better?
Mark:
The only problem is I think it takes a little more time for me to decide what that T shirt actually is.
Justin:
True.
Mark:
Because you kind of almost have to unroll it because you can pick the color. But I probably have too many T shirts to where it’s like I got a lot that are a dark gray or a blue. Dark blue. And it’s like, is that that T shirt or that T shirt? You pretty much have to unroll it.
Justin:
To see well, that’s where it goes into roulette mode. And you just pick the one.
Mark:
Yeah, I still pretty much go with the one I pick.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
But that’s how I make roll it. That’s how I make that decision.
Justin:
I only roll my T shirts when we’re packing.
Mark:
Okay. I think we’re downsizing. So I think we’re in that kind of packing phase where we’re trying to fit as much as we can and as little space as we can.
Justin:
Okay.
Mark:
So it’s still very similar mindset.
Justin:
Back to decisions.
Mark:
Yes. Not T shirts. Difficult decisions. So in that process, like pants in that process, actually go ahead.
Justin:
In terms of wardrobe, for me, the hardest decision is shoes.
Mark:
Yeah. You have a number of shoes.
Justin:
I’m somewhat of a shoe connoisseur. Yeah, no, that’s the wrong word. That implies I know stuff. No, I just like shoes. So you have a goodly number. Well, that seems dirty.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
Shoes get dirty, but yeah, I got you. I don’t think quite a fetish would I don’t know.
Mark:
Okay. I hear where you’re coming.
Justin:
I enjoy me some shoes.
Mark:
I got you. Yeah.
Justin:
And yeah, choosing which shoes to wear, once you picked out what you’re going to wear and then figuring out which shoes to wear, that can be a challenge because that’s kind of like your beard situation. It’s like, Do I want to be that guy, or do I want to be this guy?
Mark:
Right.
Justin:
Because you got right. Boat shoes. That’s kind of like your casual St. James tennis player kind of have that vibe. Right?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Or you can go with some Air Force ones.
Mark:
Casual.
Justin:
But it’s like basketball and yes, casual. I understand. Mark casual. Casual. Dressed up. Two categories. Anyway. That’s a decision.
Mark:
Sporty casual. Sporty casual versus country club casual. Yeah, exactly.
Justin:
You’re getting it.
Mark:
No, I got you.
Justin:
You can wear some sandals.
Mark:
Sure. Beach casual.
Justin:
Yeah. There’s also different kinds of sandals. There’s flip flops.
Mark:
No doubt. Crocs. Do you have a crocs?
Justin:
There’s crocs. Yeah, I do have some crocs. And then there’s the birkenstocks. Birkenstocks?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
That’s like when the country casual is going to the beach.
Mark:
There you go.
Justin:
They take the Sperries off. Actually, no, they wear a those are boat shoes. All right.
Mark:
You can’t Google that decision.
Justin:
You can’t. Well, you probably could. I guarantee you someone’s got an opinion has got a blog on.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Yeah. What shoes to wear if you’re going to the country club, what shoes to.
Mark:
Wear if you’re feeling so is that how you decide? Do you google? No. How do you decide which shoe to wear?
Justin:
Well, depends on how yeah. Yeah. Where you’re going, where I’m going, what I’m looking to present.
Mark:
Do you ever ask Megan?
Justin:
Yeah, for sure.
Mark:
So you’ll accept influence sometimes on your shoe choice?
Justin:
Yeah. Often.
Mark:
Yeah. Does she typically have an opinion?
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
Cool.
Justin:
I don’t always go with it, though. But sometimes, if it’s okay that’s what you want, then that means I know that this is what I want. Sometimes getting someone’s opinion, even if it’s not yours, can help clarify what you truly feel, right?
Mark:
Oh, sure.
Justin:
You know what I’m talking about.
Mark:
Yeah. Because you can seem, like, phenomena of.
Justin:
Like, oh, they pick the one I don’t want, and then you realize the one you do want.
Mark:
Yeah, sure. It helps you make that decision based on the fact that initially you didn’t think you had a preference.
Justin:
It felt neutral until they picked the wrong one.
Mark:
Well, maybe you just, like, defying other people.
Justin:
Yeah, that’s possible as well. Yeah. That’s certainly not out of the equation. Mark I defy that opinion, though.
Mark:
Exactly. So I’m going to pick the other shoe. But fun topic, but at the same time, we can recognize. There’s a lot of decisions that are more complicated than that.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
So in that process.
Justin:
You don’t have a big enough shoe collection.
Mark:
Hard to imagine. I guess I don’t. You’re right. I probably don’t. Yeah. I’d hate to guess how many shoes what the ratio of shoes that I have to shoes you have would be I think it’d probably be about, like one to five, maybe one to ten.
Justin:
But either way no, but we were talking about cars, and we recently, in January purchased a new vehicle. Sure. That whole decision process is intense, and knowing that going into it and not being a planned thing because our other vehicle reached a point where we realized, yeah, we need to replace it soon.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
Wasn’t like a plan anyway. It kind of inserted itself into our life.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And so we basically picked a vehicle that we knew some people who really like cars and own one of these, and actually two brothers own the same vehicle. We said, let’s go with that one. Let’s just narrow the search down. Let’s not think about other SUVs in this category. Let’s not branch out. Let’s just pick one that we know is good and go from there, because it’s already going to be a challenge. You got to look for all the ones available around you. You got to decide colors. You got to decide how much you’re willing to pay, year, all the other stuff. So let’s narrow at least down to that.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
And that was very helpful.
Mark:
Cool.
Justin:
Although I still was pulled to these other models, like, oh, this one’s this much, ultimately, again, I didn’t have the time to do that, and I didn’t have the desire to do that, so I was just like, stop it, and put the blinders back on. And we really loved the vehicle and loved the making models, so that was a good choice.
Mark:
Sure. Would you consider that more of a sneaker car or a sperry car? When you hop into that, what kind of look do you think you acquire with that?
Justin:
Sophistication, yeah, I feel like we call it Alfred.
Mark:
Alfred like batman.
Justin:
That’s right. Okay. Because it’s like, it’s like Alfred’s Batmobile.
Mark:
Oh, wow.
Justin:
It’s like Alfred mobile.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
It looks classy. Like the Butler Alfred’s vehicle he would drive.
Mark:
Okay. That’s the feel that it gives. Yeah. So you’re not necessarily association with a shoe, but more of an identity of its own.
Justin:
Well, right.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Alfred. Yeah.
Mark:
No, that’s fair.
Justin:
And, you know, like, Alfred is could he could get down if he needed. Like, he’s been around Batman long enough. He knows a few moves. He could run a little bit if he know. Depends on which version of Alfred you’re thinking of, though, I guess.
Mark:
Sure. Yeah.
Justin:
That’s how I feel. It’s like a sporty, sophisticated.
Mark:
That’s fair enough. Yeah. So in that decision, you were able to narrow it down to one model based on what other people had chose.
Justin:
Also, the nice thing is that model only started being made in, I want to say 2019 or 2020. So as far as your choices as well, it was very limited.
Mark:
Sure. You couldn’t go back very far, right?
Justin:
It wasn’t like, oh, man, this one’s pretty old, missing all these features, but it’s pretty cheap and kind of that sure. Even that you take out that variable. That was nice, too.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Carry on. Sorry.
Mark:
No, it’s funny to think about that, because as John was looking for a vehicle for a long time, there were times when I said, are you sure you want to buy a truck that’s actually older than you are? Because he’d look back at late model stuff. You didn’t have that late model option, that kind of thing.
Justin:
Certainly not one that’s older than I am.
Mark:
Yeah, exactly. But that was just fun to think about because I think cars there’s definitely models that have been around for a long time, especially in the truck range. You can find trucks that go way back if you wanted to. For antique type deal.
Justin:
F 150s. For sure.
Mark:
Yeah, exactly.
Justin:
Yeah, that’d be kind of fun. Actually, that’s what I’d like, is a simple truck that is really simple to work on. Not because I want to work on it, but because my mechanic would like working on it.
Mark:
There you go.
Justin:
It would be easy and simple and cheap to fix.
Mark:
That’s the thought, at least. Yeah, it’s simple. What would be important about being simple for me? Yeah.
Justin:
Well, I mean, all the computers and stuff in cars provide some cool stuff, but I got that with Alfred. I got you for just getting stuff from here to there. As far as what you think of as a truck, I just want the capabilities that I want, which is the ability to move stuff from here to there. And ideally, it looks decent, but sure. Actually, you know what I’m really wanting?
Mark:
No, tell me. I’m curious.
Justin:
There are these I don’t know what they’re called, but they’re like Japanese made, basically, like van truck things. They’re tiny.
Mark:
Sure. Would you get, what, three wheeled one with the like the yeah, like that.
Justin:
Not the flat, it’s a bed. Right?
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
And then like, a little cab up front.
Mark:
Very little.
Justin:
With the stub nose. Right. It’s just one you’d have a four wheel. Yeah. And it would be four wheeled in. I think that’d be fun. Yeah, just have one of those little guys.
Mark:
Be a neat little look. Yeah.
Justin:
And then I think I’d have to get trailer or something for like, sheet rock or something. Like I don’t think you’re fitting that in the van.
Mark:
Anything bigger than 6ft long, you’d have to haul my trailer for. But I want a van.
Justin:
But it would tow a trailer. Sure. Yeah.
Mark:
Anyway no, I didn’t realize you wanted one of those. That’s cool.
Justin:
Here’s the number one reason I want that because they’re cheap. Less than $10,000. When you think of pickups, they’re not cheap. Right.
Mark:
I got you. Yeah.
Justin:
So the appeal is that it’s cheap and it’s kind of this quirky fun.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
You like quirky? Yeah, kind of like my shoes.
Mark:
There you go.
Justin:
I think every shoe would fit in that.
Mark:
As far as Alfred goes, you like his, sophistication that’s right. But where your truck is concerned, you.
Justin:
Want things simple, not worried about sophistication at all.
Mark:
Not worried about it. How does that factor into other decisions you think you make? Do you desire for your decisions to be more complicated or more simple?
Justin:
Well, that’s a silly question, isn’t it? I think everyone would desire their decisions to be simple, but you don’t really have the choice always.
Mark:
Right, sure.
Justin:
Yeah. I think that was part of the Alfred choice or choosing was deliberately trying to make a simpler choice by narrowing the vehicle down.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
I don’t know.
Mark:
Coming back to decisions yeah, we’ve kind of gone around the bush on this one, but when it comes to those more complicated things, how do you typically go about making what becomes the right decision as far as you’re concerned?
Justin:
Well, if it’s a difficult and if it’s a difficult decision, there’s certainly many parts to that process. I would say the first one would be prayer and consideration that way, and I guess talking to God about it and challenging my feelings about it, make sure it’s a sound decision, not just an emotional one. So that’s part of it is trying to filter that out. The ways to filter that out is definitely prayer, but also conversations with people that I trust, getting counsel, guidance, making sure that the decision that I’m looking to make and the reasons for it are sound or if it yeah, just like trying to get some balance with that. Obviously, Megan and I will talk through pretty much any decision that’s difficult and that’s good and that’s getting on the same page is important there. So that’s part of the decision making process. Also, I try to be a long term thinker. Right. So second order consequences or whatever I think we’ve referred to that before.
Mark:
Go ahead and review.
Justin:
Yeah. So it’s like, okay, this decision today will bring this, but what might that then bring? Right. And trying to think about long term consequences and how will this impact our life later or our kids lives or that kind of thing? And try and be cognizant as much as possible without being going nuts on it because you could go through all billion scenarios that could happen or whatever, but just kind of reasonable thoughts on okay, what could that then happen?
Mark:
Trying to predict the what ifs.
Justin:
Yeah, so buying a vehicle is a good example is, well, we’ll have a car payment and we haven’t had a car payment in probably ten years, and so how’s that going to impact our life, our family’s life, our financial situation? How will that impact our kids lives? We’ll be able to take vacations, stuff like that. We have to really think about those second order consequences, or we want to, or rainy day situations or emergency situations. Will we have the emergency funds that are needed? How will that impact that’s kind of the second order stuff.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Am I missing something, Mark?
Mark:
I don’t know. I’m asking you about your decision making process. I’m curious.
Justin:
Often it’s very difficult for me to know the final thing until I do get some advice or feedback from others. I rely on that.
Mark:
What do you do if you feel very strongly about a decision and it’s contrary to what other people are telling you? What do you do at that point?
Justin:
I don’t think that happens that often. I can’t remember it happening to the degree where people I trusted didn’t agree with me. I think actually maybe one of the best examples of that, and even it’s not a perfect example, but when I made the decision to stop leading Celebrate Recovery, that was a really hard one for me. I didn’t want to and definitely the advice I would get lean more towards, have you tried this other thing to help your situation? You know what I mean?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Versus yeah, that seemed like a right decision. More like it didn’t seem right to others, it seemed like and sure. I had gotten to the point where I realized, well, it definitely has to be right.
Mark:
Yeah. It had to get to that decision that I am making.
Justin:
Have to almost like yeah.
Mark:
And I think there is something to be said for that. Sometimes seeking counsel, I’d say most times seeking counsel is a wonderful thing to do. And yet there are those things that may seem contrary to what other people see about a circumstance because they’re not in that moment. And I’m not saying you should always go against peer supported or group advice type thing, but yet I think there are those times when we may get to that point where we say, okay, thank you, but I think this is the way that I need to go. And I think at times I like where you were at. I think kind of starting off with God sometimes is I think of Job, you follow me? He had his budies around that kind of gave him counsel, and yet they weren’t necessarily full on. And yeah, ultimately, I think it was the conversation with God that made the difference. When you’re able to say, and I like what you shared, because I think I can respect the fact that we’ll talk about this with other people or our spouses, that kind of thing. But I think being single or not having a spouse, that kind of thing, I still have to make decisions. And I think it’s important to be able to talk with God about it from my perspective, because it’s like at that point, I am kind of challenging my perspective. It’s like is this just something I want to do? Is this long term benefit or is this a momentary thing? And I think when we’re able to be transparent and talk with God about things, it’s like we’re not hiding anything at that point. And it’s all out on the table and I’m able to make a decision that is honoring, if you will.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
So I like that aspect of starting and I think even starting that process, even as a concern starts out on the horizon type thing, I’m seeing this might be a thing like job opportunities. I don’t think it’s not that necessarily job opportunities always come out of the blue, not that they can’t, but yet we start seeing this cloud on the horizon starting to form that I’m kind of heading in that direction. And I think yeah, always typically being able to just talk with God about those opportunities when I see them and kind of open and close that door as necessary. I think that’s beneficial, the decision. Have you ever go ahead. Were you going to say something else?
Justin:
Yeah, I got to thought about yeah, go ahead. I want to hear your question.
Mark:
My question would be, have you ever gotten to a point where you would almost say there was so much information, maybe more like with the car, you kind of had that paralysis of analysis to where it’s like it was difficult. What do you do then?
Justin:
Yeah, well, there’s probably a lot of answers to that, but I would say one thing that came to mind is patience and slowing down.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
If it’s just as muddy or muddier today than it was yesterday, despite all my efforts, maybe taking some time, sleeping on it a little more, seeing if something you know what I mean?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Patience or seeing if the situation changes.
Mark:
Yeah, I think that delay any decision as long as you can type thing. That’s kind of my perspective on it.
Justin:
Yeah. Because thinking about buying a house, for instance, if it’s just like there’s too many options and none of them feel super great, but there are a lot and maybe we just compromise here. Maybe you start to feel like you’re forcing it or you might be and if you’re operating out of kind of fear right, sure, this one might be gone and that one I think sometimes that can be a dangerous place to make a decision from. And so just saying, you know what, I’m going to step back and I’m going to let whatever dominoes fall that might fall and then come back to the table with a little more removing some of that fear, like letting some of that dissolve and then come back with a clear head. I feel like that can be a good thing.
Mark:
No doubt. I think we can see that marketing dynamic. In a lot of cases, whether houses or cars, it’s like, well, this may not be here. It’s only going to be here because.
Justin:
It’S tapping into our natural things. Right. Our natural tendencies towards that fear and that panic and that they’re just tapping into a nerve that already exists inside, which is that fear. Because even without those marketing tactics, we’re still thinking someone can buy it tomorrow or that sale could end tomorrow. So if they say the sale might end tomorrow, then we’re like doubly. Yeah, definitely. I agree.
Mark:
Yeah. And I appreciate that perspective because it is kind of a fear based even if the sale ends tomorrow type stuff. It’s like, okay, well, there will likely be another sale. Yeah. And rarely is something not going to happen again.
Justin:
And even if it’s never going to happen again, is that amount you save today because of the sale worth all the trade offs? Maybe you can’t afford it today, but you’re forcing it or whatever. So that means you’re going to have to stretch for the next year to make, I think, big decisions, having the proper amount of time, if you have the option. Right. Sometimes it’s like your job’s going away, you have to take this one or that one. We need to know next week.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Right. But if you have the option and it’s a decision of your making, then I would definitely encourage time, providing adequate amount of time, whatever that number is, I don’t know. But for breathing room to not rush the decision. Because.
Mark:
Other than your shoes, I’m kind of going through your list of things that you God talking with other people, Megan, so other than your shoes, and when you disagree with Megan’s choice or you decide not to go with her choice.
Justin:
That’s right.
Mark:
How often would you say you have to make a decision that’s, contrary to what Megan may desire, do you find yourself there at times?
Justin:
Not that often. Because I kind of will put Megan in God’s responsibility. Right. So if she’s meant to agree with me and she doesn’t today, then I’ll just start praying. If this is supposed to be I feel like it’s supposed to be let her come around, kind of thing.
Mark:
So it’s God’s responsibility to change Megan’s mind.
Justin:
I guess. That doesn’t mean I don’t megan is yeah, we have a good relationship, so if I really want something, she’ll come around. Or vice versa, usually. But I can think of times, many.
Mark:
Years ago, most days.
Justin:
Well, depending on right. Depending on what it is. But maybe a while ago, long ago, I was considering a job opportunity in Charlote to work for a pretty big church doing web stuff. And we prayed over that, and it was a big decision, but she just wasn’t for it for several reasons, which were good reasons. And I really wanted it. Really wanted it. And so I definitely prayed about that. And prayed that he would change her mind if that was right, but also that I didn’t want to force it, that kind of thing. Well, I ended up not taking the job. And I look back on that all the time, thinking, I’m so glad we didn’t make that change. That would have been a bummer for many reasons. A lot of the ones she was talking about right in the moment and other ones that we realize over time and yeah. Just grateful for the roots we’ve established here over we’ve been here almost 20 years now, the same town, which is pretty cool. Yeah.
Mark:
So typically, you either wait until you come to agreement whether you yeah, because.
Justin:
We’Re not going to shove through either of us and make a decision that the other one’s opposed to, like, we’re going to come to an agreement one way or the other.
Mark:
How do the two of you typically come at decision making? In other words, are there areas where I would say it can be reactive? Like, are there certain topics that become difficult?
Justin:
Sure. Yeah. Well, before we get there, I was going to say the reason why we do that is somewhat through learned experience and somewhat through seeing others experience this idea that we’re going to make a decision because that’s what he wants. Well, if something goes wrong in that side of the decision, now it’s all on him, and no one wants that. We want to be on the same page to where neither of us want that. She doesn’t want the resentment that goes along with that.
Mark:
When you say she and him, are you talking about God or are you.
Justin:
Talking about no, I’m talking about with your spouse specifically. I got you. Making a decision despite what your spouse wants is basically you’re brewing trouble. Right. Because on the off chance it all goes great, everything’s great, you’re going to be overly confident about your decision making now and not trust her.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
So that’s not great. Now it’s like, well, she doesn’t know how to make decisions. I do, clearly. And you might not consider her opinion next time. There’s no guarantees here. I’m just saying I think it’s invaluable to wait to get to the same page for many reasons. This is one of them. Or if it does go wrong, well, now she’s dealing with resentment towards your decision, and you’re dealing with resentment towards her resentment.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
You have that to deal with. It’s much better to enter the decision knowing that those are possibles and saying, I don’t want that. I don’t want you to say, yes, we’re going to do it, and then if it goes wrong, for it to be something that makes you upset at me. Like, I want this decision to be between the both of us so that if something goes wrong, we’re in it together. Sure.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Anyway, no, your other question before that.
Mark:
Was what it was about. Basically reactive topics. Are there topics that just between the two of you? Certain areas are more difficult to discuss.
Justin:
Yeah. Well, yeah. So I love change. I love change, and she does not. She loves sameness and stability. So that’s a good anytime I’m like I’m thinking about doing a new thing. It’s always triggering for her in a sense. Sure. I would say triggering is a strong word, but no, but not a comforting aspect to her. It makes the hair on the back of her neck stand up a little bit. Like, oh, no, what are we doing? And is this going to be a good thing? Just like all the anxiety. Yeah.
Mark:
So I was thinking there’s going to be a certain level of anxiety that comes up whenever you might say, hey, I want to talk with you about something I was thinking about.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
It could know not in a negative sense, but it’s like, oh, what does Justin want to do?
Justin:
And we’re very in sync on a lot of things. We’re also very not in sync on a lot of like, even if I were to say that the chances that my idea is exactly what she wants is pretty slim. We want pretty different things. We have different personalities, different even styles different.
Mark:
But she likes Alfred.
Justin:
She likes Alfred.
Mark:
Yeah. Good. That was a combined.
Justin:
Mean. She’s not super picky about know, she’s good with anything. So the fact that it’s as nice as it is just makes her feel like a classy know she’s not yeah I don’t think she when it comes to vehicles that she would have a strong opinion except that it’s big enough to hold the kids and we can do our trips and she can get around town know just like the practical things.
Mark:
Sure. What might be an area where Megan would have a strong opinion and you.
Justin:
Might not in terms of inconsequential things like style of the house. Right. Because unlike most men, I have a very strong opinion as well about style and stuff like that.
Mark:
Sure. Anybody with that many shoes. That’s right.
Justin:
Exactly. I was also a graphic designer, so style is kind of part of what I care about.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And you got to look at my office, our studio here, and you can see it’s got a unique style.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
And it does not look like our house if you think about what our house looks like. So there’s that.
Mark:
So you’re allowed to style out here as you see fit?
Justin:
Yes. Well allowed. I mean, I claim this is my office. She’s happy to let me have this. For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I get a little resentful that I don’t get more influence in the house.
Mark:
All right, that’s fair enough. Yeah.
Justin:
But I do like what our house looks like, just to be clear.
Mark:
No. You don’t disagree completely with Megan’s style?
Justin:
No, actually, I like pretty much 100% of her style. It’s not just not the most what I would want in many cases, if that makes sense. I’d prefer something else, but I like what it is, if that makes sure. And if I don’t like it, I’ll tell her, and we’ll work through it. We’ve had a few of those as well.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Wow.
Mark:
Nicely done.
Justin:
Yeah. I think probably every marriage you have one or two of those.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Think about when Harry met Sally. Have you seen that movie?
Mark:
I have.
Justin:
Sorry. Well, there’s this couple that they move in together, and he’s got this wagon wheel coffee table.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
And it’s a sticking point, like, he loves it. She hates it. She says it’s got to go. He says this is a staple. It’s a classic.
Mark:
I could picture that.
Justin:
It’s pretty ugly, though, that table. I’m on her side.
Mark:
But a wagon wheel? Come on.
Justin:
That’s a wagon wheel. Yeah. That’s kind of cool. Unique, I guess.
Mark:
Yeah, no doubt.
Justin:
It might fit in here, maybe. I don’t know.
Mark:
Yeah. You could replace your trunk if you felt that strongly about it. Yeah. So when you’re able to when you’re having to make a decision and you see that anxiety kind of come up in Megan, what do you do at that point?
Justin:
Make this decision real quick. I mean, through the years, I’ve learned some better techniques. One is slow down. Calm calm her down. Say, all right, hey, we’re not going to do anything. Let’s talk it through. Let’s just put things on paper. Yeah.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
Yeah. I think that’s part of it.
Mark:
When you think about putting do you typically make a list of pros and cons type?
Justin:
That was a metaphor. Usually we talk through it, but actually that would be probably better. No, I can’t recall we did that recently. Yes.
Mark:
Sure. Where you actually made a list kind of, and wrote things out. You actually put it on paper, or you put it on a screen? On paper? I was thinking literal paper, of course, but yeah, then I translated. Oh, Justin. He wouldn’t use paper.
Justin:
Come on, now. His tablet.
Mark:
Tablet. Yeah.
Justin:
Actually, we should do that more, I would say we don’t do that as often as I think would actually be beneficial, because I think that’s a good tool.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Pros and cons list of both versions of the decision, the trade offs.
Mark:
What other tools would you say that you have that have been helpful in making decisions outside of kind of I.
Justin:
Like how you’re interviewing me, like I’m some decision expert. Well, let me tell you, Mark.
Mark:
Just.
Justin:
So everyone’s clear, I don’t think I’m an expert in decision making. I’m not saying happy to answer the questions.
Mark:
We’re offering tools because everybody has to make decisions.
Justin:
That’s right. Aren’t you answering any of these questions?
Mark:
Well because you’re not asking me any questions.
Justin:
All right.
Mark:
That was speechless. Oh, yeah, you’re right.
Justin:
I’m sorry. No, well, that’s because you keep asking the next question.
Mark:
I do, because you’re mining. You’re offering these little nuggets that are good, and I just like to keep mining.
Justin:
All right, so you answered some of your questions.
Mark:
What question was it?
Justin:
I don’t remember. I mean all right, there’s so many questions. One was what tools?
Mark:
The last one I asked you was, what tools do you think you have that you would recommend to other people who are making trying to make decisions?
Justin:
And then you’re going to answer it after I answer it.
Mark:
Okay.
Justin:
Yeah, you got me. Well, I mean, we already talked about a bunch of them, but prayer is a key conversation with your significant other. If it’s a decision that’s going to connect with their life, then you need to be on the same page, I believe. And I believe that means working to get there or realizing it’s not possible, and therefore there’s your decision. For me, that’s how I feel about it, and I know other couples feel differently.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
I’ve heard stories where God told him to do a thing or her to do a thing and not the other one, and they did it, and it was right and all worked out, and they were I’ve heard of that.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
I just don’t feel like that’s how I feel about it. And I believe God can use both. So that’s my tool. Patience. Second order thinking. Like trying to, I guess, pros and cons list, which really should have kind of the second order thinking built into it, like sure. Pros and cons today. Pros and cons. Five years, ten years, whatever. If it’s applicable. Counsel from others, checking your biases against some objectivity, someone who’s not invested in the decision. Getting advice about a decision that affects the person you’re asking is potentially not as helpful.
Mark:
Right.
Justin:
I would argue it’s more helpful than not asking anybody.
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
What am I missing?
Mark:
I’m not saying you’re missing anything. And I think I will add to it.
Justin:
Googling.
Mark:
Yeah. I’m not a big Google. Does that surprise you?
Justin:
I just want to throw that in there.
Mark:
I think at times that adds to the confusion.
Justin:
Paralysis.
Mark:
Yes, the paralysis. Because you can find conflict. That’s true, but I think we should.
Justin:
Talk about the thing that triggered the Googling. Oh, no, we were talking about dirt, but we’re talking about I was actually looking before that. We were talking about my broken sprayer. Airless paint sprayer.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
And trying to figure out if it’s a broken if the board, the logic board inside is fried or the pump or the motor is broken.
Mark:
Basically three key ingredients there.
Justin:
Yeah, kind of. So, Googling, like what’s a used sprayer cost? What do these motors cost, what do the boards cost?
Mark:
And I think that’s a research dynamic. I mean, granted, you can use that with a car. Yeah.
Justin:
I think research is important.
Mark:
Yeah. And I think for me, that’s where people typically come into play. Granted, you can be subject to bias at that point, but it’s like I.
Justin:
Never leave my house.
Mark:
Well, I think for me, I think about f three or church or those kind of things where there are people in that realm that have expertise.
Justin:
I think if I had the reach, that kind of reach, because I feel like you have a tendency to know who to ask and or are ad f three and at I don’t know. I feel like you have those opportunities. You’re going in and out of stores. You have relationships with different expertises.
Mark:
You mean everybody. You mean you everybody. When you said you have that reach.
Justin:
You specifically, I’m thinking of you versus me, where I sit at my desk all day.
Mark:
I got you.
Justin:
It’s not like I’m going into stores every day. I’m building relationships there, and I know what their expertise is. Or f three, like you said. I don’t know. I’m thinking through it. I feel like if I had those connections, I’d rather ask the paint store guy his thoughts on the sprayer. In fact, I thought that many times last night when I was trying to look into it. Man, it’d be so much easier just ask the paint store guy if I had that relationship. But since I don’t have that relationship, I don’t actually know how much he knows about it, because I might know more than he does. Whoever the paint store guy is today. I used to have relationships with paint store guys. Now I don’t.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
Does that make sense?
Mark:
It does make sense, yeah. I like that you’re used to the term reach, because I think we all have a certain level of reach. It’s just the area we tend to reach toward. And based on where you’re at, your reach might be more online, whereas mine might be more interpersonal. As far as and I’m not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, even from that dynamic, but being able to recognize. Yeah. There are people around me who deal know if I’m looking to purchase land or know, like know or even aspects where I think about it. So often with Lizie as she goes on to PA school, I’m thinking I’m having conversations or I notice my ears kind of perk up when I hear about somebody that’s applying for a program or they’re pursuing it’s. Like my ears will perk up. And I’ll just kind of listen a little more intently when know, hearing things along that line know, I want to be part make helping Lizzie make know, decisions know, in that I think, you know, listening to people who have had who have done that thing before is also very beneficial. And even especially with kids, adolescent kids. Talking with somebody who may have some young adult kids might be helpful in decent young adult. Yes, very much so.
Justin:
Argue you might learn a lot from those who don’t.
Mark:
Yeah, there’s something to be said for that, but being able to think about it in that aspect of, okay, what other people or who do I know that have had to make a dissimilar decision or a decision like this or had an experience like this? Who do I know that might have some expertise there? I think that’s beneficial, too, when we’re trying to make decisions, because I think, like you’re saying, and I think of it so much more so for my kids, our kids, even, all the information is out there from a research dynamic, but just having more information doesn’t always make the decision easier.
Justin:
Yeah, I agree. I would also argue that someone’s lived experience is valuable, but it sometimes may not be as reliable as you might think. In other words, the circumstances that cause that person go through that decision and kind of go the path they did, unless you’re like, the closer your life is to theirs, the more reliable that will be. But I think there’s something to be said for everyone’s. Experience is going to be unique. So just because they had a good experience going to the school and doesn’t mean you can’t do your due diligence to see if it would be a good fit for you.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
I think of the Alfred. Again, the people who are friends who own this vehicle, they have a family of our size, and again, his brother has one. They both have decent sized families. They both are car people. One of them, the brother, is a good friend of ours. He’s notorious for getting a new vehicle, like, every year or something. That’s kind of his thing, and he loves it. So I’m like, okay, so this helps in the sense of they have some shared lived experience and preferences and stuff. So that kind of helped narrow that down. So that’s a good example of getting someone’s real experience.
Mark:
Sure. Yeah. Anything else that comes to mind?
Justin:
What are your tools?
Mark:
Well, that would be one that I would say is a tool.
Justin:
Yeah, I can hear you doing that and see you doing that.
Mark:
I think too, at times, and it’s probably a different decision, but sometimes I’ll even find myself and I think it was more so years ago I would find myself talking with my father, my earthly father, in that process, because I would recognize that I wanted to be aware of the bents that I might have in certain areas. And I would be able to say, okay. And I would sometimes hear my own biases exaggerated in that conversation. Yeah. Magnify doubled. Yeah. I would just be able to hear that. And then it’s not in a judgmental sense, but being able to recognize that, okay, I might be subject to that dynamic because I know I already am in so many other areas. And I think for me, too, and I think you said it in a generalized way for me. I see Chris as the other half of God’s brain for, you know, in that process, I don’t necessarily make a decision unless we have unity going forward, because I think, like you’re saying, then no one’s at fault, or we’re both at fault to a certain degree. Not that we’re looking for a scapegoat, but it’s no need to provide nobody’s at fault about this. This is our decision based on our current circumstances, and we’re going forward with that, or we’re waiting until that unity is there in such a way that says, okay, yeah. This one decision isn’t going to divide us. And I think that’s just beneficial long term. I don’t think I’ve always done that well. But as I talk with couples, I think it is those moments where I just pushed this decision through, and I didn’t necessarily consider you at all. That’s rarely beneficial.
Justin:
Yeah.
Mark:
And I think the way that I would not that I would always convey it well, but being able to see Chris as a gift in that dynamic yes. She’s not an obstacle to me having what I want, but she actually has a viewpoint, and that’s beneficial to where even like with Megan, that anxiety is beneficial because there’s a part of you.
Justin:
Natural friction that’s sometimes important, and I’d.
Mark:
Say it’s most always important in a sense of creating unity. It’s like, okay, where’s that coming from? Where’s that anxiety coming from? And then we’re able to talk about it in a sense that adds to the picture weight. Yes. And being able to recognize that that’s important.
Justin:
And that was hard earned, right?
Mark:
Oh, sure. Yeah.
Justin:
Because I’m sure there was a period, as probably all marriages, where it was like, that person represents an obstacle to getting what I want.
Mark:
Yeah. Because well and I think it’s an obstacle at times to selfishness.
Justin:
Yes.
Mark:
I think that’s what the obstacle is. I want my way, and it’s like you’re the person that’s keeping me from getting that.
Justin:
Yeah. Yes. That’s great. And that’s probably another topic, but this idea that what I want is going to bring me the most happiness. Well, marriage teaches us otherwise. You typically can have more self happiness and satisfaction in a relationship where you give right. Sure. That’s the dichotomy, but yeah. That’s a whole nother conversation, but write.
Mark:
That one down dichotomy. And they’re all dichotomy, but yeah. And I think about there you go. And I think about that, even though for single people as well. And I think that ability to recognize that God offers that, and at the same time, I think that’s a big thing for Chris and I is that ability to come together with God in creating that unity to where it’s know, we can say, okay, if it’s my viewpoint, my perspective that needs to change, talk with me. Tell me. And if know Chris’s, talk with her. And yet God is available to anyone in that process. And I think that’s where starting with Him is typically more important because I’ll recognize there are probably some decisions that never got to Chris, from my perspective, just because God squashed them at the beginning and that’s okay too.
Justin:
And to be clear, being single is its own set of struggles to work through decisions. That’s where I’m yeah, so I’m adding to what you’re saying, not to say it’s a less than, it’s just different. And you don’t have that particular situation where if you push through a decision now, you have someone who could resent you for I mean, it’s all on you. You might resent yourself. And so that’s something to think about. It’s trade offs. Right. But yeah, I think, like you said, it’s still good certainly to bring God in decisions, but also to bring others in if it’s something you feel like you might be biased in or don’t have the patience to give it to really listen to God.
Mark:
Sure. So let’s be honest here. Have you ever just flipped a coin to make a decision?
Justin:
Um, I can’t recall doing it.
Mark:
Really? Okay.
Justin:
How about you?
Mark:
Sure.
Justin:
Do you have an example?
Mark:
Yeah, it’s typically something simple like rock, Paper, scissors, where you’re deciding a trivial type thing. Do you have an example who gets to go first?
Justin:
In what?
Mark:
Like picking a team.
Justin:
Oh, yeah, sure.
Mark:
Yeah. I just wanted to see have you.
Justin:
Ever done it in a life decision?
Mark:
Not in a life decision, no, not like anything that really mattered.
Justin:
But yeah, might be kind of fun.
Mark:
To try who gets to go first or who gets something in a tie where it’s like a cookie.
Justin:
Right, okay. In the Bible, they talk about casting lot.
Mark:
They do.
Justin:
And it was like choosing to spirit choose through this luck, basically. And I think that’s certainly a viable thing if you kind of really stuck. Let God choose through the coin in the air.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
I think we could do that more, maybe. You think a little more faith.
Mark:
A little more faith. Yeah. A little less research.
Justin:
Yeah. A little less googling.
Mark:
Yeah.
Justin:
A little more coin tossing.
Mark:
I hear you. What do they call those? Casting lots.
Justin:
That’s right.
Mark:
Drawing straws.
Justin:
That’s right. Casting lots.
Mark:
There’s proverbs about that, too. Casting lots keeps strong opponents apart. Something to that effect.
Justin:
Oh, I don’t recall that.
Mark:
So in other words, you’re avoiding conflict. If basically drawing those straws, it avoids the conflict, we can come together and say, okay, we can’t agree and it is what it is, and we can be mature about this and move on.
Justin:
That’s good.
Mark:
And recognize, hey, I got the short straw, and next time I might not. Well, thanks for sharing, Justin. Decisions.
Justin:
You made me share how I see it, so I did.
Mark:
This is how we see it.
{Music}
Justin:
Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like How I See It, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do: subscribe, rate, review, follow us, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is [email protected]. Yep. I said dot click, as in C-L-I-C-K.
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