0:04
good morning Justin good morning Mark how are you sir I'm well I'm glad to

0:10
hear that yeah no no issues from frisbee or anything you're just no issues from frisbee doing well glad to hear it it's

0:17
getting that time of year too it's like perfect frisbee weather yes like upper

0:23
50s low 60s yeah yeah yeah although I

0:28
will say your your muscles take a little bit longer to be acclimated you know

0:35
warm up to be convinced that you're doing something like come on let's do this yeah yeah you know I got you you

0:41
dress a little a little warmer to just kind of keep your muscles warm and go for it yeah good for you I guess I

0:48
didn't but that's probably what you should do that's that's what an older fellow speaking to a younger fellow would say just dress warm first to keep

0:56
your muscles speaking to a younger fell someone think cuz he's a younger F but

1:01
isn't quite understood but yeah just keeping those warm makes a difference on those

1:08
cold mornings or cold afternoons but yeah [Music]

1:18
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:25
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:33
[Music] conversations but it's interesting you uh you bring up

1:38
a shift in the seasons M because I think you know there's a lot that goes

1:46
on with the change in the seasons MH you know we end up you

1:52
know hurricanes come mhm you know this you know and then how' you guys make out

1:59
by the way we did well we did I I recognized uh yes with the with Ian yes

2:06
with Ian coming on in yeah I recognized that uh we had two yards to clean up

2:11
which was which was uh not necessarily fun but I was still thankful and yet at

2:17
the same time we got a ton of pecans ton of pecans peans peans pean however you

2:24
want to say it I prefer I don't know what I I don't know what I prefer

2:30
pean there you go anyway yeah yeah yeah yeah same here a lot of debris pickup

2:36
but I'm Sat by the burn barrel all day Saturday just shoving stuff in yeah I got a heck of a bonfire ready to go I

2:42
didn't I didn't by the time we finished up I didn't uh didn't torch it but yeah yeah I'm I'm ready for one of those cool

2:49
cool nights to go ahead and on a weekend or something like that but yeah yeah it'll be good little Twigs it'll go up

2:56
quick but yeah yeah and then other seasonal things um you know everyone

3:03
loves fall not everyone a lot of most people I know right I don't know that I

3:09
know anyone who doesn't love fall well you're a coffee drinker I don't love

3:14
fall this is this I was just thinking most coffee drinkers love fall cuz they can get their pumpkin spice well I do

3:20
love some pumpkin spice latte see the PSL you know it is it's a classic okay I

3:28
got you I got you let me ask you have you ever tried a pumpkin spice L I can't say as if I have H I have tried I've had

3:35
coffee before I mean but I don't know it's coffee adjacent

3:40
definitely okay but they're just yeah they're very flavored and you know it's it's kind of dessert in a cup I am

3:48
convinced that most of the people who say they love or like coffee really

3:54
don't like coffee they like the flavor right that they can in coffee cuz exact

4:00
extract to put in the milk in the flavor yes it's just ironic to me I mean

4:07
granted very few people do I know that I know drink it black there you go you are drinking it black this morning so

4:15
yeah I have further proof that I love coffee I drink deaf and half calf most

4:20
of the time okay you know a lot a lot of people drink coffee for the uh caffeine

4:26
kick sure that kind of thing um caffeine has not done a whole lot for me like it

4:32
doesn't really wake me up it it doesn't really keep me up at night so sure um I

4:37
typically drink half calf um or decaf depending on the situation because I

4:44
just like the flavor of I just want the coffee I don't care about the so no I I

4:49
give you I I know you like coffee cuz you got that little tattoo on your foot down your your leg too that's you know

4:56
little coffee cup little coffee cup so anybody that's going to put a you know tattoo on their body that has a coffee

5:02
cup I mean come on now they're gonna light coffee to some degree that's true yeah it also says morning yes it does

5:08
yeah yes you know and so that's uh interesting you bring that tattoo up because so today this is a long segue

5:17
but we're going to attempt to talk a little bit about depression and that topic but

5:23
um yeah that tattoo it says morning it's got a little apostrophe at the end and it's right above a coffee cup and um

5:31
when I was when Mia was pretty young um just one morning I remember I said

5:37
morning and she said you always say that Dad you always say morning and there's something about that like cheery happy

5:44
Dad thing that just made me want to identify that way nice right like I want

5:50
to be that cheery happy more than that you know and so when I saw that little art that said that a coffee cup I'm like

5:59
yep I'm going to get that nice um and and that kind of ties into this whole

6:05
subject because for me I want I want to identify that way not not identify as the like you know depressive or like um

6:13
you know the dark individual or whatever and I think for me that's a

6:20
big I think important part to My particular battle with depression is

6:26
like not allowing that to be an identific a thing or sure allowing it to

6:32
be yeah like um instead it's just very seasonal and as we were discussing about

6:38
the season there's a thing called sad right seasonal affected disorder I think

6:43
it goes by other terms too right but that's what we'll useal depression other yeah yeah um and that's affected me a

6:50
lot of my life which is I I look back now I go well though that's why I don't like fall sure but there's just so much

6:57
to fall that's triggering for me I mean it's the days get darker quicker you

7:03
know it's cooler where you know you can just wear shorts all just felt so summery and happy now you got to like

7:10
and a lot again a lot of people love these things sure um and then things are dying and things are falling off the

7:17
trees like um yeah it also represents going back to school when I was younger

7:24
you know like leaving fun things going to hard things I don't know there's just a lot about That season and I'm like I

7:31
just it's the worst and in Minnesota too uh the non-summer months are many more

7:38
than in North Carolina so it's like we're starting the beginning of a long

7:44
you know yeah Time season yeah process yeah

7:49
sure yeah what are your thoughts Mark ah my when it comes to depression my

7:55
thoughts are many um number one I I have empathy for people

8:05
who experience it and I can even become

8:11
frustrated um not with people who experience depression but people who

8:17
have never experienced depression because I believe so often I hear it in

8:23
a guilt and shame type context we'll just cut that out basically mhm you know

8:30
think happy thoughts yeah you know and don't get me wrong I I I respect the

8:37
complexity as we're talking about you know nature you know and how nature I

8:44
when I just like you to that degree when I start seeing noticing those days

8:51
getting shorter you know sad is one of those

8:57
things that comes to my mind you you know cuz I respect the fact that yeah I

9:02
personally don't necessarily I I don't say that I struggle with depression as a

9:09
you know from a clinical standpoint I wouldn't be but yet at the same time based on what I do when I see that

9:16
change coming I know that there's going to be people who are contacting me based

9:22
on what they're experiencing and the depression they feel and you know those kind of things and even

9:29
even to that degree I recognize there is going to be um a

9:35
regression even for some of my clients who I've been working with and who have been making a progress if you will that

9:43
I think this time of year tends to create a little setback and you know and and sometimes

9:49
even in my own mind I'm saying Shucks yeah this is this is what we're up against and you know

9:58
I I make light of it and yet I can also respect the the opposite happens

10:06
sometimes at the end of spring coming you know when we come into spring you know I can also see this this um

10:14
lightning this lightning yes not as in lightning and thunder but

10:20
yes yes to where there is a an excitement you know whereas now it tends

10:27
to be a little more oppressive for some people and even as you shared you know

10:33
it's like this awful season MH you know and I and I recognize that you know

10:39
there again there's some there's a lot of thoughts that go into what does what's happening and the dread and I'm

10:46
not saying that's the only context for depression but I think it's it's just

10:51
adds to the complexity yeah it does you mentioned the word regression and that's

10:58
such a it's what I've figured out with with my struggle

11:05
with depression um mine mine is very in in what's the word inter uh integral no

11:12
no uh inter intermittent yes thank you problem that was going to take me a long time to

11:19
that word sometimes a word just flies away um yeah intermittent so you know

11:25
it's it's certainly not every fall in my experience it's not every fall um it's

11:31
also not predictable in that way and then like well I know it's fall so it's going to sometimes it's spring and I'm

11:37
like what that doesn't make sense you know because for me traditionally spring is lightning like you said is very much

11:43
like things start to feel alive again you know um but the regression thing

11:49
when when it comes I feel like my normal mental fortitude for things it's just

11:57
gone you know yeah and so things that I could you know offenses right like

12:03
things that happen to quote unquote to me MH um in my normal good days or

12:10
whatever I've gained a lot of tools over the years to like go oh yeah that's not

12:16
that's not me that's them right or that it makes sense this would happen because of X Y or Z or benefit of a doubt like I

12:23
bet that's not it's an offensive thing it's because of this other thing that

12:28
I'm missing right and be able to kind of do the the the footwork to just sure you know deal with things deal with life

12:34
being a normal human being to a certain degree I guess be uh mature right in the

12:41
way that I handle um interactions in life that you know don't

12:46
necessarily whatever but in when I'm struggling with depression is like all that willpower to fight that it doesn't

12:53
take a whole lot of willpower normally it takes a lot of willpower to go so what

12:59
so for a long time it was essentially a regression like you said where in those

13:05
periods of time everything IID gained it was now back to no I really think that person is doing that or whatever and it

13:12
would be a lot more of that where nowadays um I simply I kind of just give

13:18
up in a sense of like trying to assess guilt sure right and just go well I know

13:23
whatever I'm going to think about this isn't going to be right and I also know you know I don't know like yeah uh I

13:29
can't like coach myself out of it either so I kind of just let it be and you know

13:35
I don't know it ends up being this blah place you know that I end up in as a

13:40
result of trying to keep away from the AR Place yeah does that make sense no it makes perfect sense I think I think I

13:48
think when we tend to if I may say fight any

13:54
emotion it tends to prolong it to a certain degree I'm not saying

14:00
fight it in a sense of you know like you were saying reframing but but resisting

14:05
that ability to feel to where yes I would you know and I know it sounds strange but I think you know I I equate

14:12
emotions to like a like a boat on the water you know if we see it on the right Horizon it's going to become a black dot

14:19
it is going to start out as a black dot and then it's going to be identifiable and we're going to see it and we're going to hear it and you know all those

14:27
things and then it it's going to go back to being a black dot again on my left as

14:32
it passes by and I think you know I I I believe that emotions are very similar

14:39
to that but when we tend to want to get in the water and fight the boat keep it

14:46
from happening keep it from going by keep it from occurring I think that's counter to our ability to recognize that

14:55
emotions come and emotions go and I and I believe you know depression is part of

15:01
that overwhelming emotion of you know um the in I guess the inability to deal

15:10
with certain things I'm not saying people can't you know but I that's that's what I will tend to walk with

15:16
people through is those those I can'ts you know because I believe that's where

15:22
that depressive thought ties into the feeling is you know I can't do this I

15:28
can't deal with this or what what I'll quite often hear is I don't feel like it

15:34
which is very much identifying what you're saying I just I just don't have the energy MH you know and so and I and

15:42
I and at that point I think there's a lot of factors that can tie into that it's not as simple as saying okay you

15:49
know I just need to think about it differently because I believe there is it is it is

15:55
complex in that that mindbody connection if you will that basically says you know

16:02
I I really don't think feel that I have energy to deal with this mhm and yet

16:11
there is that part of me like that boat you know it's like once I start seeing that BL black dot on my right it's like

16:18
I start getting resistant to it it's like oh no here it comes you know and I

16:26
instead of being able to say and I I think that would be something that you might even agree to you know you can you

16:32
can push back of course or disagree even you know I think there's tools to be

16:37
able to move but I think there's also something to be able to kind of accept that this is coming and this will pass

16:45
yeah yeah thoughts on that so an analogy I'll often use in terms of my particular

16:53
struggle with depression I don't want to paint anyone other any other person's version but it's like kind of describe

16:59
it as this River um that's you know nearby and uh some days summer spring

17:07
whatever good things happening you know I can maybe barely hear the river but

17:12
maybe not right like in the distance and you know it's that kind of far away and

17:18
you know kind of like your boat analogy but instead of a boat it's just there this River and geographically close by

17:24
yeah and fall it's like every fall you know I can see the river sure pretty

17:30
much every fall the leaves fall off the trees yeah exactly they they were blocking it I can see it again you know

17:36
hear it and so and that's what I've had to learn is

17:41
that that's not bad it's not bad to see the river um and then there's days too where I'm waiting I'm waiting in the

17:48
river and probably shouldn't be like it's not necessarily the safest River but I'm also not you know and and I

17:55
recognize too that that's not necessarily bad it's just is it's part of what happens right um so point of

18:04
clarification yeah as you share that do you choose to go into the river no that's that's where I well so

18:12
okay I think depression is very spiraling okay

18:18
right so a big part of you know my efforts as I've grown

18:24
older and you know try and like deal with it properly is to

18:30
not that's what I saying about the thing with offenses right it's like instead of spiraling like it must be because of

18:37
this which is really because of this which is really because I'm a terrible person and I'll never be able to overcome this it spirals like it it will

18:45
take you under to go back to the analogy but um and so there are times where you

18:53
know just like when you're drowning if you flail you're you're guaranteeing your demise it's that kind of thing but

18:59
I wouldn't say someone drowning is choosing to to flail to drown right and I feel like depression in some ways is

19:06
that however some people uh I think Embrace depression differently right

19:12
where it is something you know what I'm just going to fall into that and because there there there is this weird fleshly

19:20
desire to just go into this hole of selfishness which is really what it is

19:26
and when I'm in it like part of the Spiral is me beating myself up for being so selfish and just like

19:34
what's wrong with you you know all you can think about yeah yeah but anyway back to what's wrong with you yeah I

19:40
hear you those those are the thoughts that tend to come in that kind of and it moves from what's wrong with you to more

19:47
of um well these are the things that are like just kind of a judgment is

19:53
pronounced in my since you asked I can tell you I'm going I'm going to make the list I know exactly what I am

19:59
you know and it's you know it's all mostly lies or you know like just

20:04
the version of a truth that's so devoid of Hope and Snippets Faith right yeah um

20:11
but yeah just the river thing too like there's sometimes I'm I'm on the edge of the river and it's like I feel the Rocks

20:18
slipping and I really shouldn't be here and it's like part of what I'm try to do

20:23
is reach out to others ask for prayer that kind of thing cuz I I found out that reaching out is pretty important

20:29
part mhm um but then sometimes you still slip and sometimes you get wet you know

20:35
you're you're wet the way I describe it though is that the worst moments are oops I slipped but now I'm rolling under

20:43
the the Rapids right like I I can't come up for air and in those times the way I

20:51
describe is the only way I'm getting out as if God pulls me out you know and so I've used that analogy of his arm

20:57
reaching in pulling me out and I get out on the shore where he puts me I look

21:02
where I was and I go wow thank you you know sure and in those

21:08
moments there's a profound gratitude that has nothing has ever replaced that

21:15
level of like kind of profundity I don't know I think that's the word I'm good with it in that

21:20
gratitude where it's just like I don't know it's so there's

21:26
something about that whole cycle that everything about it is bad but that coming out part is has always been good

21:34
sure you know what I mean sure the end yeah the end yeah there's a there's a LEL of gratitude and I've said before

21:41
too like there's usually not usually several times many times there's a song

21:46
for some reason that is kind of the arm reaching in that just grabs me and it's

21:52
they're not usually like super you know they're not like the Happy peppy songs there's something in

21:58
it some things yes there's some truth that grabs me but yeah yeah so that that

22:04
River analogy I use that a lot because I think it's hard hard to kind of explain what it is and also the thing what you

22:12
said is people who have never experien it tend to have a hard time with it just

22:18
doesn't make sense just be happy you know just choose something different it's like once you're kind of you know

22:26
there are things I can choose to do when I'm on you know waiting right like I can choose to reach out and and hope that

22:33
that pulls me up on the bank and it often does right sure um but there's a certain point where you don't have

22:39
agency with your movement I you are in the water or the currents too strong or

22:44
whatever and you're you're fighting a current that's stronger than you are essentially is what the issue is and so

22:50
someone saying just try harder it's like um you get in here and try harder you

22:56
know exactly yeah for you and I'm and I'm thinking about that that reaching

23:02
out that analogy the riverbank that kind of thing um for you how important is

23:08
having Community you know people around you that is

23:17
consistent consistency I think that's I think that's the key

23:22
really because um I've always been a very social person I had a pretty big

23:30
community and that can be so so consistency is a key word but

23:37
also closeness is another key word so sure so I'll get to that in a second but um the size of my community can actually

23:45
so a lot of things that are tools in a healthy life become

23:52
weaponized when I'm struggling with depression where so for instance all the truth that I've gained over over the

23:58
years through you know doing the work that I've done through celebrate recovery and just like all the truth that I've learned I start to beat myself

24:05
up with it when I'm struggling with depression in it you know that spiral thing of like you know the truth you know this the way you feel is just wrong

24:13
like you should be H you should be grateful for what the situation the season you're in cuz like a lot of times

24:19
I'm strugging with depression if you look at my life there's no reason I should and this is what I'm telling

24:25
myself like things are yeah and it's uh so that truth and that recognition that

24:31
I should be a grateful human being tends to be starts to be um condemning sure um so the thing

24:39
with Community is it's always very a tool right it's a it's a very important

24:45
thing when I'm healthy when I start to slip is when I start to go why is it

24:52
anyone reaching in to pull me out and that especially before i' you know

24:59
working through this my whole life but like especially in the beginning it was like it was just me saying yeah I don't

25:07
have any real friends because when I'm struggling like this there's not anyone to pray for me to reach in to say hey it

25:14
looks like you're struggling you know with that anything like that you know now there isn't actually

25:21
uh an implication or you know I have always and I think this is a

25:29
very common thing with people with depression a lot of people with depression is you put on a mask to look

25:34
happy to to pretend to be the same person you were yesterday or before the the struggle so of course people aren't

25:40
asking how you're doing cuz you're you're you look perfectly fine for the most part there might be a few things if

25:46
someone knows you really well that they might go you know when you do that you know sure but for the most part there's

25:51
not all these signals you just want you desperately want someone to know you

25:57
that well and you no they don't because how could they sure does that make sense makes perfect sense especially in

26:03
combination with the mask and I think you know our a lot of our relationships

26:09
aren't necessarily that deep to where or that consistent in such a process of you

26:15
know daily you know seeing somebody weekly maybe you know that's not

26:20
necessarily a great indicator you know yeah but even what I was going to say

26:26
earlier so even weekly is what better than not weekly so I I do a weekly

26:32
accountability uh with some friends and so what I was getting at earli is the consistency and the closeness so the

26:38
stuff we talk about you know we talk about stuff you're you you're accountable for right so we talk about

26:44
some some very deep stuff together and very personal stuff and so these relationships are very close just as a

26:51
result of the things that you're sharing so sure U and the fact that it's weekly means even during those seasons I'm

26:58
going to be meeting sure and in the way we do accountability is not what a lot

27:04
of people think of accountability which is I have to go in and report on myself it's kind of the excuse me I have to go

27:09
in and and people are going to hold me accountable and say how are you doing with this how you it's the opposite

27:14
where we report on ourselves sure and basically say these eight areas here's

27:21
how we're doing and we kind of do a a weekly report card essentially on ourselves sure right and want to yeah we

27:29
can lie if we want to but it kind of defeats the purpose of getting up early go meet together it's like if I'm going

27:35
to do that I'm going to do what you're supposed to do the thing that works right it doesn't work to Li so I'm going

27:40
to take the mask off is what it exactly thank you yeah so in those moments that

27:45
you know I can say you know it's been a tough week you know and I can talk about it and they'll pray over me and so that

27:52
consistency allows me to speak it out man just speaking it out

27:59
is so instrumental to stopping the spiral you know especially condation

28:06
that's that's speaking it out how in on a scale of 1 to 10 how would how important is that to actually verbalize

28:14
what's going on for you I want to say nine nine out of 10 yeah okay for me personally yeah no I hear you yeah and I

28:21
think the struggle is we don't want to verbalize it because

28:27
it's so personal and embarrassing and shameful mhm you know that we just we

28:33
want to get through it and then we'll be fine and then we can talk about it yeah and that happens a lot with me like I'm

28:39
happy to share I mean I'm doing a podcast right now right I'm happy to share about it you know afterwards the

28:46
thisle and I have no problem sharing that in the moment it feels like I'm the

28:52
weakest human being in the world and I don't want anyone to know that you know it's just as shameful embarrassing thing

28:59
and that's what leads to the isol the desire to isolate yes sure yeah yeah

29:04
it's yeah it's all very spiraling right just the isolation the the Judgment the

29:09
uh shame you know these are just all buzzword for sure and as I'm as we're

29:16
thinking about this in community and isol how does that uh for you how does that affect you spiritually how do you

29:25
you know how does your view of God or view of you know your spiritual life or your

29:31
desire to have you know communion if I may say so you know not in a literal

29:37
sense but in a you know spiritual sense how does how was that

29:42
affected so it's tested right like my my faith is

29:49
tested absolutely because essentially I'm saying I'm about to drown I need

29:55
your help you know like those are a lot of prayers like that you know just I'm

30:00
really close to the edge and I really need you to hold me you know not let me slip that kind of thing but

30:09
very often by often I mean you know maybe once a year or whatever minimum I

30:15
Do Slip and so it's like why did you let that there's no good in that hole why do

30:21
you let me go in it sure cuz I know he had I my faith says no know that he can

30:29
do anything gotcha so I know you can keep me out which means I also know you

30:35
didn't right sure sure um and so there's a lot of wrestling with that and

30:41
again I've transitioned over the years to not fight that fight but just let it be what it is like well I don't agree

30:48
with you but I'm also not going to argue I'm just going to wait right and so

30:54
that's a big aspect of how I fight it in the moment now is wait um I do think back to

31:02
the community thing I I think I could shortcircuit it and do by reaching out um but it's just

31:11
so darn hard to do it you know and it's just frustrating how it's silly to me

31:18
looking back at the situations how hard it is in the moment I mean I know what it feels like it's just like you it's

31:25
like not an option yeah just silly cuz that what happens is I'll do a inventory

31:32
of my friends well that person's dealing with that they can't they they don't have time or they you know I know

31:37
they're struggling I don't want to throw my they got enough with their own stuff right that person that person's busy

31:42
like they got this going on then and then this person I know if I do this it'll turn into this question this

31:48
conversation they're going to get all wrong like and I'm going have to answer questions about stuff that's not relevant you know and I'll just go

31:55
through the list right um or this person yeah like yeah yeah so you just kind of

32:02
do that sure or like Megan for instance she's my wife and she's my favorite

32:08
accountability partner sure but when it comes to this it feels so excuseyou77

32:26
[Music] responded that way this is why I not

32:32
like doing the things that I normally would do in this situation but it again

32:38
it's as I hear it come out of my mouth it makes me almost like feel gross about

32:44
it like excuses like um and all not that

32:49
I don't think Megan's thinking that necessarily I just think that's how I think she'll think and also how I think

32:55
as I hear that's how it sounds to you yes sure and therefore you think that she's hears it the same way yeah and so

33:04
you know like I said you just go down the list of all the people that you're close to and come up with all the reasons why they're not the person to

33:10
share this with this time you know what I mean yeah and ends up it's everybody

33:15
yeah yeah no I can't share with anyone because everyone has a reason why it wouldn't yeah and that's why the

33:22
accountability thing is so important because well these people have to be here mhm and I have to share the truth

33:29
about my situation so you know you just happen to be the faces that are going to hear you know I mean yeah and uh yeah

33:38
that so that's a very good thing for me sure to have that but yeah and and and

33:44
that that helps you avoid that unintended if I may say so isolation

33:51
yeah that comes along with it with depression where you're concerned yeah

33:56
and I and we already said this but you just really want to isolate and want I

34:02
mean I know we already said that but it's just so profoundly true like you really want to cancel this and and

34:08
postpone that and it's not that yeah it's just easier not to do the things

34:15
you know I mean um yeah and there is certainly that's definitely

34:23
one of the symptoms right is this desire to not do things sleep in whatever and

34:29
it's I really think it just has so much to do with how much energy it takes to do anything you know if I may uh

34:38
speaking of the energy um is there a part of that intermittent

34:44
for you that might come like after like extremely hectic or extremely busy times

34:51
as well as I as I'm go ahead I'm as I'm I'm I guess I'm just thinking about it

34:57
in a context of energy MH and realizing sometimes I think there is a you know

35:03
when we come out of an extremely busy season you know we can kind of recognize

35:11
you know it's I depression is different than like fatigue but yet I think you know

35:18
depending on how much energy I have that can also Happ an can you speak

35:24
to that as far as you're concerned or is that yeah something you see or have noticed or not even

35:31
relevant I think for me the biggest struggle with it is that there isn't a

35:37
prescriptive thing to look at to say when this happens that happens sure and

35:43
there's that's why there's there's so many times where I just dip into

35:49
depression and part of the Spiral is but there's no reason this didn't happen

35:55
that didn't happen you know some of the things that maybe I've identified right yeah um cuz I do think there are some

36:01
triggers but I've also recognized that I don't get depressed every time that trigger happens and sometimes you get

36:06
depressed and that trigger didn't happen so is it a trigger I don't know you know I hear you that's kind of yeah so I'm I

36:13
I do think it's good to be aware of the things that can be triggering of course and I think for me being mindful of

36:21
those situations and again being proactive and you know confessing those

36:27
things and prayer with accountability and saying like hey this particular thing's happening you know let's let's

36:33
use the busy example really busy and about to be you know wrap up all these busy things and that can be a trigger

36:38
for me so if you just pray for me that'd be great you know that kind I think that's very important sure um for me I

36:45
think that can be a trigger where there's essentially a lot of responsibilities and they kind of all

36:52
end similar time and

36:57
a bit one thing I know is a trigger for me is validation or lack thereof

37:03
and like that's just such an annoying fact to me if you will that that

37:10
pleasing people type approval needing approval yeah um especially like if you

37:16
give something your all and you're looking for maybe I I wouldn't say at

37:22
this point in my life I'm not looking for approval I'm not I don't set out to do things for approval but I still

37:29
expect it right like that's part of my people pleasing nature is like looking

37:35
around for that validation if you you know you give your all and the validation isn't what you wanted that can be very triggering very triggering

37:43
and um and again it just feeds that spiral of you're so immature and you're

37:49
so needy and just whatever you know yeah attack yourself for all the reasons but

37:55
that certainly can be a thing this uh a recent episode uh I also was wondering if it's

38:02
lack of water consump remember you're sharing yes yeah like I had a headache all day fighting that along with just

38:09
this you know depressive day and realize at the end of the day you know what I

38:14
got a headache maybe I haven't really had much to drink and it kind of feels like I need to drink so I drank a ton of

38:21
water my headache went away next day I was Back Square One you know perfectly fine didn't feel depressed and I'm like

38:29
H interesting you know cuz I definitely I mean some of the recent episodes we've done we've talked a lot about

38:35
physiological sure things in our body that can trigger you know uh mental

38:40
things too as well so that I'm like you know that's definitely a thing that could be a thing sure I should probably

38:46
think about that next time you know drink a bunch of water just why not right yeah yeah exactly so yeah in terms

38:54
of triggers it's it can be definitely be validation it can also just be Outlook is dim mhm EG fall right sure

39:05
literally dim and that it's dark or gray and you know too many gray days in a row Outlook feels dim it just really impacts

39:12
me those gray days and it's again you look at it go how immature are you like

39:18
just come on man that's not a big deal like life's the same on a gray day as it's in a sunny day and yet my brain

39:25
doesn't get it you know so yeah you yeah so that's that can be a trigger as well but again none of those things are

39:31
guarantees um but a lot of those things are almost always take me to the edge of the river like yeah you know so that's

39:39
why you know I've identified them as triggers is like they they are the most common things to bring me to where I can

39:45
hear the river see the river wait in the river you know does that make sense yeah

39:50
and I'm I'm even thinking you know as we talk about the the the physiology of it to a certain degree I'm I'm curious from

39:57
your perspective um how physical activity or exercise if you will ties

40:02
into that I'm just curious from that Dynamic of you know as we talk about Frisbee and you know and ultimate that

40:08
kind of thing you know is that is is the amount of physical activity you have in

40:15
a season helpful because I realize you know as we come into winter you know

40:21
sometimes we're not doing as much mhm you follow me we we're not we in the

40:26
summer you know at the beginning of Summer sometimes you know we are getting out we're going for bike rides we're

40:31
going for walks with the family we're you know that kind of thing but yeah as the days get colder and as you know they

40:38
get shorter and you know our work day remains pretty much the same you know we

40:43
get those constraints on both ends of the work day yeah and unless you know you're in a lighted facility or

40:50
something like a park or whatever you know yeah you're just not doing as much you're just not doing as much is that is

40:56
that and I here again I respect the fact that yours is intermittent but do you see a connection for you from on the uh

41:03
the physical activity side of

41:09
it I would say I have not drawn the connection there but I think it would be

41:17
foolish to say they're not connected in any way and I think I do think it's important to um in so many people who

41:25
struggle with depression and who don't say that's an important part of you

41:30
know having a healthy mental state and I agree with that completely but U I have

41:37
not found that like the a direct connect yeah like to where it's

41:44
like if I don't work out I definitely see it play out that way and if I do I

41:50
definitely see it play out that way because U and I think that ties into just my distaste

41:55
for exercise like exercise for exercise s sure no I hear you I think I struggle

42:01
more with just having to do it than the benefits mentally I don't know but like

42:06
frisbee you know we play that twice a week and I'm in as good a shape as I've been in in years just from running a lot

42:14
two days a week and um I still get depressed so no I yeah I was just

42:19
curious based on that you know if you would noticed it or if you would say it has had an impact I'm not saying that

42:27
you don't get depressed anymore but is it a matter of becoming at times less

42:34
often or shorter well segments the problem is

42:41
exercise for someone like me comes with a whole bunch of mental

42:47
baggage whether I'm exercising in something like F3 or playing frisbee and

42:52
so it's not like I just get the free benefits of the exercise I'm also dealing with mental stuff when I

42:59
understand that so F3 I'm dealing with why can't I do as many push-ups as I did yesterday like that's a very common

43:06
thing that I'm just having to like get over like it's fine you don't have to be as good as you were yesterday comparison

43:12
or yeah or saying ha I beat what I did yesterday you know it's just like this

43:17
mental thing that I think honestly I think a lot of people enjoy like that's part of what makes exercise enjoyable

43:24
for some people I think it's kind of that but for me it's just this I don't know mental battle uh or looking

43:31
at the person yeah comparison next to me going well they're doing that many I guess I have to and then doing it and then going yeah I shouldn't do that I

43:38
can't I'm not that good as them and then that compares yeah I'm not that good right like I'm not good as that person

43:44
and and then going well should I be and like how old are they how many kids do they like that's what I mean my mental

43:51
baggage is like I'm a lot of that stuff's going through my head but just stupid exercise stuff like it's and I'm

43:57
battling it from a maturity standpoint going stop it get back to the exercise you know what I mean like I have this

44:03
mature version of me in my head saying hey you get back to work and then I do and it's it's you know it's so it's not

44:10
like exercising doesn't make me depressed that's not what I'm saying I'm just saying um depression kind of enhances

44:18
whatever emotions you're dealing with right so if I'm struggling with depression and dealing with these kind

44:25
of comparison things I mean they'll be enhanced you know it's a lens you're looking through and then with frisbee

44:30
you know the validation comes into play like how good did I do and did people see that catch and I've talked about

44:36
that in the past too like where sometimes it becomes too important those

44:42
those competitive Sports because it's like that becomes my source of fulfillment in a sense of like yeah see

44:48
I still got it or whatever it is and G yeah don't want that you know what I mean but yet it's part of it and there's

44:56
there there's two sides to it because a good day where you run hard you make

45:02
some catches you know you play tough right it's good on the psyche and it

45:08
makes you feel accomplished in a sense and there's there's that aspect to exercise and

45:14
sports that I think is healthy like that physical building up sure so to speak um

45:22
but then the vice you know the inverse happens where maybe you're slightly injured because you know I'm old and I

45:28
get injured and can't quite perform to the same level and I drop that frisbee tonight you know whatever it's like it

45:34
can be a thing that I'm just have to walk off at the end of the night say it's just frisbe and get back to a

45:40
normal life but does that make sense so so then you add depression on top of either of those emotions and whatever

45:46
and it can enhance those in an unhealthy degree sure so that's why I would say I

45:51
haven't necessarily noticed a correlation between it directly benefiting my mental health or not it's

45:58
more like it's just if if I could remove all the mental stuff from exercise I think to me it'd

46:06
be a no-brainer sure because I definitely think the healthy side of things helps sure drinking water

46:12
whatever eating healthy all those things I know help sure eating healthy uh I think is

46:18
probably uh something I could more directly point to like if I'm eating better I tend to feel better mentally um

46:26
and it doesn't quite come with the same amount of baggage you know uh so a long

46:32
answer to here no it's okay that's how when you say eating better how I mean

46:38
help me understand that I know we've had Mary Beth in here you know and demonstrated you know how yeah eating

46:43
helps our body heal but for you personally Mar Ellen too Mary Ellen too sure yeah

46:49
um well before I move on from exercise I think there are probably many people who struggle with depression where exercise

46:55
is the main tool that would work for them so I don't want to disparage that as being something to try cuz I do think

47:03
anything that is a healthy Endeavor could be a very healthy tool for dealing

47:08
with depression cuz not everyone's the same kind of personality and that's just my particular take on it no I hear you

47:15
uh as far as eating the more tools we have in our box the better off we are yes I hear you and in combating and it's

47:22
not that there's always going to be one specific tool that makes it go way but

47:27
sometimes there's a complexity yeah yeah in that as far as eating healthy I just

47:32
mean um you know fruits and vegetables Whole Food you know Whole Food yeah but

47:39
also not um like throughout the week like I'll eat lunch at home instead of

47:44
going out to eat like you know and able to make some healthy

47:50
choices yeah I I think for me what constitutes healthy is just I know

47:56
certain things when you know as I eat them I'll feel you know fueled and certain things I'll eat them and I'll feel like I need to

48:02
take a nap I hear you so anything that makes anything that I eat makes me feel like I need to take a nap I know isn't

48:08
contributing towards my mental health sure and uh so that's yeah so a lot of times if I eat lunch out and get a big

48:15
burger or something like that you know sure it makes me want to take a nap and I know that's not contributing in the

48:20
best ways but often the social aspect of eating out with somebody yeah is more

48:26
than up for that but I'm just saying I definitely notice but you and I think

48:32
that's a that's an important part for anyone is to be aware of the little things that we can do it's true you know

48:38
yeah going out is good is from from a relationship standpoint and social interaction versus isolation and yet at

48:46
the same time the the food that I choose is also going to be an important part of

48:51
that yeah no it makes perfect sense as well MH so yeah

48:57
any other any other connectors that you've noticed for you that you can say yeah this definitely impacts we've kind

49:05
of you know talked about the you know the exercise Dynamic the you know the

49:10
the food Dynamic what else is there any been is are there any other tools that

49:18
you recognize are helpful yeah well music I mentioned a little bit but music is uh it can go

49:26
both directions I mean I think think kind of like what saying about exercise depression can enhance whatever you know

49:32
basically enhance anything you're doing right so sure um but

49:38
um yeah so certain music will just be add to the the pression of like yeah

49:44
life is sad and hard you know what I mean sure um but

49:50
sometimes I don't know like there there's there's been many times where it's like I said been a song that stood

49:57
out for some reason right that grabs me and

50:03
um yes so I would definitely say music like listening to encouraging music and you have to be careful with that because

50:10
I mean like Eli dummer joked about some music if it's too happy it will just

50:15
make you angry and I definitely definitely can relate to that where like

50:22
happy peppy Faith filled Christian music you know like K K LOVE kind of music

50:29
just really greats on me when I'm struggling and I need something a little

50:35
more ground level you know what I mean and Grassroots kind of fundamental

50:42
foundational type stuff yeah um yeah but sometimes it can be a lyric

50:49
from one of those songs too like it's I'm not saying those again this is not prescriptive for

50:55
anybody cuz for for them I hear a lot of people listen to it cuz it's encouraging to them and it could be the thing that

51:01
keeps them out of depression I'm not saying that's uh I'm just saying it for me personally um so it's often songs

51:08
like so need to breathe is one of those bands that I love and he I I think he's

51:15
said it but if he hasn't said it it's definitely I feel like painted all over in his albums that he struggles with

51:22
depression and he often comes back to God and um yeah a lot of those songs

51:30
will really just grab me in a in a different way sure you know what I mean

51:35
I do and I guess make me feel a love from God a lot of those songs will

51:40
because it's the same thing of like I think you can heal me and just pull me out of it but I also know this song's

51:47
hitting that way because that's what that's the song you put in front of me today you know what I mean yeah and uh

51:53
so there's this balance of like well I wish that your love represented me not

51:58
going down that thing but I'm so thankful Your Love represents giving me this and the way out you know what I

52:06
mean sure yeah and I think it's interesting too that you you know I would dare say you would feel a

52:12
connection with need to breathe you know based on what you you know perceive or

52:19
know of from their lyrics their songs and you know recognizing that someone

52:24
else has deals with depression as well versus some you know writer on Caleb that's

52:32
just kind of singing the same song and you may not know their story and so

52:37
therefore what do they know in that part of it you know but I think it is helpful when someone else is able to speak from

52:46
that from the river if you will and say yeah I know what it's like to lose my footing Y and and and Tumble and roll

52:55
yeah yeah that's right you B that's the music that I long for right that the

53:00
music from the river yeah that's so good that's going to be your next album you know from the

53:06
river the river with Justin yes U yeah and even like the Caleb thing like

53:12

there's going to be some people on there singing songs that they wrote from their masked place right like they had their there's going to be some people on there singing songs that they wrote from their masked place right like they had their

53:18

mask maybe they're just like me but their song sounds like what they wish they were and I wish it's like sure you mask maybe they're just like me but their song sounds like what they wish they were and I wish it's like sure you

53:25

know so said you don't know people's story and and it's not a judgment of that music it's just like how I respond know so said you don't know people's story and and it's not a judgment of that music it's just like how I respond

53:31

to it and yeah yeah and it's and it's I think it's fair to say from a musical standpoint there are people who are to it and yeah yeah and it's and it's I think it's fair to say from a musical standpoint there are people who are

53:37

singing other people's songs yeah you know because not everybody writes their own stuff so of course that's going to singing other people's songs yeah you know because not everybody writes their own stuff so of course that's going to

53:44

have a little different feel yeah you know based on that that relationship and have a little different feel yeah you know based on that that relationship and

53:50

that kind of thing so yeah anything else that kind of thing so yeah anything else

53:57

anything else from you oh therapist Mark oh that was that was plenty for me anything else from you oh therapist Mark oh that was that was plenty for me

54:04

well no that's okay and um um I recognize well no that's okay and um um I recognize

54:11

that through this we desire to be a source of Hope yeah and I want to that through this we desire to be a source of Hope yeah and I want to

54:18

recognize that you know in depression we can tend to make choices recognize that you know in depression we can tend to make choices

54:25

that lead to isol ation mhm that lead to the thing you know that that we that lead to isol ation mhm that lead to the thing you know that that we

54:32

know isn't necessarily beneficial and yet you know being able know isn't necessarily beneficial and yet you know being able

54:38

to recognize okay sometimes I have the ability to make that one choice and I to recognize okay sometimes I have the ability to make that one choice and I

54:46

can choose that and for me that you know that's the tool to be able to say okay can choose that and for me that you know that's the tool to be able to say okay

54:54

in this in this depressive overwhelming outof control Dynamic you in this in this depressive overwhelming outof control Dynamic you

55:01

know when what choices do I have MH and being know when what choices do I have MH and being

55:08

able to start there you know whether it is food whether it is exercise whether able to start there you know whether it is food whether it is exercise whether

55:14

it's you know just being able to you know go outside in the middle of the day and look up at the sun you know or that it's you know just being able to you know go outside in the middle of the day and look up at the sun you know or that

55:22

kind of thing to be able to recognize the choices that I do have I need to be kind of thing to be able to recognize the choices that I do have I need to be

55:28

mindful of them and you know cuz I I believe it is mindful of them and you know cuz I I believe it is

55:33

multifaceted it's it's not like there is one thing and you know and we in in this multifaceted it's it's not like there is one thing and you know and we in in this

55:39

we haven't even you know discussed medication or anything like that you know but I also think there there are I we haven't even you know discussed medication or anything like that you know but I also think there there are I

55:47

see it as very similar in some ways to trauma in the sense that no one thing see it as very similar in some ways to trauma in the sense that no one thing

55:56

MDR yoga you know all these different tools you know not one thing works for MDR yoga you know all these different tools you know not one thing works for

56:03

everyone who experiences what they experience and I everyone who experiences what they experience and I

56:09

think that's that's where I I can appreciate that and I think in some ways for me um it is about building on what I think that's that's where I I can appreciate that and I think in some ways for me um it is about building on what I

56:19

know building on what I've learned through this process as you shared you know building on what I've learned through this process as you shared you

56:24

know it's like yeah I've been in this water before and I'm always thankful for the times when God pulls me out you know know it's like yeah I've been in this water before and I'm always thankful for the times when God pulls me out you know

56:33

and so even being able to have that going forward I think is helpful in that and so even being able to have that going forward I think is helpful in that

56:39

process of okay there's going to be an end to thish I'm not sure when MH I don't know process of okay there's going to be an end to thish I'm not sure when MH I don't know

56:45

how long I'm going to be here but there's going to be an end MH how long I'm going to be here but there's going to be an end MH

56:51

and I respect the fact for some people they lose sight of that and and I respect the fact for some people they lose sight of that and

56:58

unfortunately you know they may end their own lives just because they see there is no unfortunately you know they may end their own lives just because they see there is no

57:04

end and those you know of course those are the people that I feel for the most end and those you know of course those are the people that I feel for the most

57:09

you know and I guess that's where you know that's part of what helps me take you know and I guess that's where you know that's part of what helps me take

57:15

my job very seriously you know because I realize people are that close some days my job very seriously you know because I realize people are that close some days

57:21

mhm and it's like yes my desire is to be able to offer what hope I can as kind of mhm and it's like yes my desire is to be able to offer what hope I can as kind of

57:28

seeds planted and so like you say that's that's where I would come back to is being able to say okay what have I seeds planted and so like you say that's that's where I would come back to is being able to say okay what have I

57:36

learned in this process and how do I hold on to that and and use it at this learned in this process and how do I hold on to that and and use it at this

57:42

time yeah yeah it's good yeah I think time yeah yeah it's good yeah I think

57:48

like you said my my primary thing I would like to just share is that there is hope yes even when it feels like like you said my my primary thing I would like to just share is that there is hope yes even when it feels like

57:56

there isn't because there is times where you will feel like there isn't sure that's not the truth yes you know what I there isn't because there is times where you will feel like there isn't sure that's not the truth yes you know what I

58:03

mean yeah and so sometimes understanding that your brain's just lying to you and mean yeah and so sometimes understanding that your brain's just lying to you and

58:09

there is hope but it just doesn't feel like it is a tool you know yes yeah it's there is hope but it just doesn't feel like it is a tool you know yes yeah it's

58:14

that one step it's that one choice that I have and in the moment it feels like an eternity and it also feels like the that one step it's that one choice that I have and in the moment it feels like an eternity and it also feels like the

58:22

last episode was yesterday and the next episode is tomorrow if feels like there is no space between the episodes yeah last episode was yesterday and the next episode is tomorrow if feels like there is no space between the episodes yeah

58:30

and that's also not true and then what the next day after an episode I'm like who was that person because this is who and that's also not true and then what the next day after an episode I'm like who was that person because this is who

58:36

I am sure you know what I'm saying so it's like yeah so I think just recognizing those moments come they go I am sure you know what I'm saying so it's like yeah so I think just recognizing those moments come they go

58:42

you're not alone there is hope there are tools MH you know but at the same time you're not alone there is hope there are tools MH you know but at the same time

58:50

this is a very real thing that very many people struggle with yeah yeah well thank for sharing Justin this is a very real thing that very many people struggle with yeah yeah well thank for sharing Justin

58:57

appreciate you sharing out of your hope and the importance of community and avoiding isolation and those kind of appreciate you sharing out of your hope and the importance of community and avoiding isolation and those kind of

59:04

things thank you for sharing from a a empathetic therapist perspective gotcha things thank you for sharing from a a empathetic therapist perspective gotcha

59:11

you don't get a lot of empathy well I shouldn't say that but it's hard no so I appreciate it happy to do it this is how you don't get a lot of empathy well I shouldn't say that but it's hard no so I appreciate it happy to do it this is how

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