Justin:

You have no issues?

Mark:

No issues there.

Justin:

There.

Mark:

There. There. Is that where you can see it? Because I’m okay if you slide that over because there’s no use that being near me, no offense.

Justin:

You know I am offended.

Mark:

Yeah, well You’re mighty easily offended this morning, Justin.

Justin:

I’m offended every time you use the term no offense.

Mark:

Is that is that what offends you itself? Yes. Yeah. Understood.

Justin:

It’s my trigger.

Mark:

So here’s so here’s your uh here’s here’s the bait for the morning, Justin. How are you?

Justin:

I’m dandy.

Mark:

Nice. Well done. I’m glad you’re dandy.

Justin:

Uh besides being dandy, I’m a little sleepy.

Mark:

Oh yeah?

Justin:

But but but but wow. Can’t get that one. But but but but but good. Dandy.

Mark:

I’m glad to hear you’re dandy.

Justin:

Yeah. How are you?

Mark:

I am well. I’m excited for the day. It’s just uh I think you know, these these springier days. Yeah. have that tendency.

Justin:

Give you a little spring in your step.

Mark:

Yeah, exactly.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Same.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yes. Oh, there you go.

Mark:

Oh, we’re keeping Justin up. He’s ready to go back to bed.

Justin:

Uh I’m sure I could. I’m sure I could. Unlike uh unlike you, Mark.

Mark:

I know, once I’m up, man, I tell you I’m ready to go. Yeah. I’m usually that way. Yeah. I wouldn’t. Yeah. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversation. So today we’re gonna cover a pretty polarizing subject.

Mark:

Yeah. Um

Justin:

I think it gets even more polarizing when you get into the evangelical or the you know, the kind of the I guess m Christian perspective, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, and that subject is divorce

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So when I say divorce, what’s the first thing that comes to mind?

Mark:

Honestly, for me, um I had a mentor, a close friend, like say, and his son, actually it was a it was a couple that separated. That basically I think I mentioned them in the when I talked about last one of the podcasts back about holy discontent. There was a couple that separated.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

This uh this man that was my mentor, his son was the individual getting divorced. And we really got into, I mean In hindsight, it wasn’t necessarily a uh uh it was it was too close to both of us to really discuss, you know, what was going on well.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because it was just too personal. It was too raw.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I so I remember when you mentioned divorce, that’s That’s really what comes to mind for me was that conversation and that interaction with him. Um, because we had moved to North Carolina and I made the mistake of sending him a letter with my thoughts in it And that just wasn’t the right thing to do. And, you know, and then we got back together and he shared his thoughts with me in a face-to-face confrontation, which was far more, you know, mature on his part. But yeah, I just I just remember, you know And it taught me a lot.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I think we can recognize that what from what it taught me was I was able to recognize I’m not in this. I’m not going through this. So for me to kind of step back to the side or sit back and just kind of judge from my vantage point wasn’t beneficial. And, you know, and I think we can have that ten like so many things, you know, it’s like I can I can judge it from a distance, but when it’s the people near me, it’s when it’s my my marriage, when it’s you know my s you know significant friend or family member. I think that’s that’s a helpful thing when we’re able to recognize how personal that dynamic is because I do believe no one desires to get divorced from the altar. People don’t get married in order to be divorced.

Justin:

Or else they wouldn’t do that thing called vows.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. So

Mark:

I’m sorry, that’s a that’s a long question answer to your question, but that’s what comes to mind.

Justin:

What about you? Well, you made me think about, you know, because you’re basically talking about when you can’t be objective, you’re naturally subjective

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Right. To a to a subject. And it kinda makes me think of those vision tests where it’s like, you know, if if you’re m what is it, far sighted, if something’s too close to you It’s not in focus.

Mark:

Sure. Right? And

Justin:

blurry and so you kinda have to move it further away before it kinda comes into focus Yeah. Or and vice versa, if you’re you’re nearsighted, like it needs to be pretty close for you to be able to focus on it any further it starts to

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I feel like there’s some you know it’s it’s a pretty good analogy for um n requiring objective eyes to be able to speak into a a subject for that focus, right? For that clarity. And sometimes we’re just too darn close. I need to pull it back or I need you know, I just have to recognize I don’t have the required level of objectivity to speak into a thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s something I’ve lear hard learned as well, Mark. Like speaking into things I had no business doing because I was too close. And so my my vision of it, it was like, oh, that’s gotta be an E and an and an F and a two. Right. Like, oh no, actually it was an A and a B, you know Yeah And there’s been many times that exactly that situation happened where it’s like I had it all summed up and based on the blurry version I saw I was pretty sure it was this

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Spoke into it and it was like, mm, yeah, I kind of missed the mark. I don’t know if that’s what the kind of thing you’re doing.

Mark:

When I am looking at something, not to use the near and far, but when I’m looking at something from a distance, I can have it pretty well figured out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But when I go in and when I’m actually in the box, if you will, or in you know, when I interact with those people It’s like, okay, yeah, this is this is different than I thought it was. Because and I think even even scripturally, you know when the Pharisees addressed divorce with Jesus, you know, and he was able, you know, and Jesus, you know, shared You know, it’s because of your hardness of your heart. That’s what Jesus shared from my perspective scripturally, you know, as they’re defining divorce. I recognize there’s a lot of hurt that goes with that hardening. It’s not that people just choose, and I think Jesus understood this. Yeah. You know, we see his compassion for, you know for the Samaritan woman, the woman at the well, who had been married five times, you know, and yet at the same time and it and the guy she was currently living with is not her husband. So, you know, she had experienced that rejection that divorce five times and got to the point where she was basically recognizing, Okay, I’m just not good at this. I’m gonna give up. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I get I need a guy around, but at the same time You know, and I and I and what I what I see in that, if I if I may, from our perspective, is I see that Jesus understood that hardness of heart that comes. you know, with with hurts in relationship, but yet unlike us, there’s not a condemnation.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Necessarily in that. And I think and I think, you know, when God talks about um God talks about the fact that, you know, basically the children of Israel divorced him You know, they turned their backs on him. So I I I take that from an aspect that says, okay, God completely understands what couples who are going through divorce feel like. And he has compassion for them. them. He doesn’t necessarily desire that, you know, he doesn’t necessarily, but yeah, it’s it’s not a condemnation. And I think so often from and uh even even just bringing up that topic. It’s like, well, we we should we almost need a divorce person in the room.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to to speak to that. But yet yeah, that’s kind of where I come back to is you know, God understands that. And from sometimes from our married vantage point, it’s easy to say, well This, this, and this. And when we get into that level of, oh, okay, yeah, I didn’t see it that way, and recognize, you know, that no one chooses that. That that’s what that’s where it becomes, you know, that aspect of the polarizing dynamics come a little more into balance. Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah, it does. Absolutely. I think um Yeah, I I I think part of the reason it’s good to talk about it even from our perspective is because Um, I think there’s some there it’s important to basically come to a place of compassion that you said that aligns with God’s level of compassion. as people who, you know, are happily married and trying to consult with or help those who are considering divorce, I think sometimes Uh, especially in the Christian world it can be like, well, that’s the nuclear option and you should never choose it, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And Man, that’s a hard one to figure out and that’s why you know, that’s why it’s polarizing is like I said, especially in the Christian community, because we’re we’re pretty clear on what God’s word says about it, right? Yeah. And yet Um, I read this pretty good article yesterday um by a friend s a friend of a friend basically, um, and they discuss Some issues in their previous marriage where there was some abuse. Um abuse verbally and abuse you know, some different levels of abuse And on top of it some uh hidden addiction and different things like that and um not providing for the family, different things like there they’re just pretty significant list of things. And it was a little bit sad to me uh to hear her have to try and like go to court. Like, here’s my reasons that you know, I I I needed to do this. Sure.

Mark:

Defending herself.

Justin:

Defend herself. Yeah. And when you know, she’s was already spending years and years defending herself against her own husband. You know, that kind of thing. And then Um, like you said, you know, the Bible says, therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Um and when he approached that woman at the well The purpose of him calling out the you know, all of her past marriage d indiscretions was to point to her uh make a very clear point to her that What you’re seeking is empty.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What you’re seeking is not filling your thirst.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, there wasn’t condemnation in that, you know. And if you ever get a chance to watch The Chosen, you know, I think the very last episode of the first season. it is that scene.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And uh it you know, it’s very much aligns with the biblical story.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh but just to kind of see the way their expressions play out, they’re you know, like it’s just beautiful to see how Um there wasn’t condemnation in Jesus’ words, but instead freedom.

Mark:

Yeah. Spirit and truth.

Justin:

Spirit and truth, yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To be able to recognize that yeah, there isn’t that that condemnation, but yet, you know, and and Jesus desires to minister to our hearts.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

First and foremost, I guess I would say in some ways. You know, I mean I think that’s the holy of holies in some ways our in our body is is our heart. And, you know, to be able to recognize that, you know, God cares about the heart and those who follow him, you know, tr you know, their hearts are transformed. uh by his presence. So yeah, I I’m I still wanna bring that back to the whole divorce. And I’m sorry, like I say, that’s it’s interesting Because I think what you bring up about what happens in marriage, you know, in the process of I think sometimes we want to kind of smooth over all that And I think, you know, so often it does come down to us being able to walk with that individual just like Jesus did, you know, and say, you know, it it it’s not that And that and I think that’s what I learned from that letter. I, you know, when I wrote that letter, it was a blanket statement that said, all divorce is because of this hardness of heart. You follow me? And I I didn’t have the compassion for individuals at that point who are experiencing, you know addiction in relationship, you know, abuse in relationship. Because I do believe, you know, marriage, you know, as even as I would s see it or I as I believe God sees it, you know, marriage is Um, well, it’s an opportunity for use but not abuse. So my body doesn’t necessarily belong to me It belongs to my spouse when we enter into marriage and vice versa.

Justin:

We become one.

Mark:

Yeah. And so therefore I do, you know, it’s like uh draw there it there are I believe there are boundaries. Yes. I believe there has to be boundaries to be able to say, okay you know, this is this is too far and we need and I’ll and I I routinely work with, you know, individuals who even may need to separate. And I have no issue with separation, you know, in a in a way that is able to repair Or reunify in some ways, you know, as we deal with our own individual behaviors to be able to come back. But I also recognize that that’s not gonna necessarily work with every couple. Yeah, and my heart, you know, goes out to those couples. And and even this lady, you know, who’s basically having to defend herself because I think, you know that becomes a d in the what was her role? What was in uh like in the church she was

Justin:

She was a worship leader.

Mark:

Okay. Sure.

Justin:

Yep. And you know, her story’s pretty significant in that there’s more more than that in her life. various kinds of sexual abuse from different leaders in the church and things like that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So th there’s certainly a pattern there that I think uh you know, t tied into the fact that I’m supposed to play this role, you know, of a submissive person, whatever that is, and I think Yeah, it’s it’s just a really sad situation and it’s like you read that and go, No, you’re not spoiled, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Get out, you know, whatever. Um, but there’s man, there’s this balance, right? So Obviously marriage in terms of covenant is higher than like a job, right? Because the you literally stand before each other and y you vow, you know, and that God says a lot about vows and So I think we we we’re supposed to take them very seriously and um and we do, you know, in in marriage generally. Um but but I think about it like in a job, you know Very often immature people will say this job sucks and I want out and they’ll explain all the reasons why. And if they’re able to consult with the Someone who’s had some years uh, you know, in the job world or whatever, has a little bit of wisdom, some experience under their their belt, they’re able to say, you know what? Some of this is true, but some of this is you. You know? And jobs are hard and perseverance is very important in career, right? Like learning how to be diligent, learning how to persevere through difficult circumstances. Learning the tools required to address conflict. Like there’s just so many important things that you have to learn early on early on in your career. um to establish being able to be a good employee, you know. And that being said, there are c caustic job environments, right? Where it’s like, no, you shouldn’t stay in that. Sure. You know And determining where that line is is very difficult. And yet we we don’t then, when someone leaves a job, go, Mm, I th pretty sure you sinned. Sinned hard. Like that that’s a big no no in the big book. You you left that job, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Where divorce, obviously, there’s some significant, you know, verbiage in the Bible that can make it Very condemning. And I think that’s that’s the thing that’s so obviously so polarizing is as Um Christians who want to counsel others, it’s not like a job or like, well, you need to stick it out, you need to persevere until a certain point, and then it’s like, okay, and then maybe it’s time to look for a new job and that’s okay You can’t say that, right? It’s like, have you ever said that, Martin? Like, you need to stick it out, persevere, do your best, do this, this is but if it doesn’t work out, it’s okay. Just Find another one.

Mark:

Yeah. Another job.

Justin:

Another no, another spouse.

Mark:

Another spouse. Yeah, I I’ve never said that.

Justin:

Although, you know, maybe tomorrow We think we we

Mark:

think we’ve seen it all, but maybe not quite. Yes.

Justin:

But you know what I’m saying? Like it’s uh I feel like the job thing is a good correlation in terms of you don’t just counsel someone to leave a job, you know, typically.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But if you know a person well and you know what they’re capable of and you know their work ethic, you know you you know you know them pretty well, you know what they’ve been through, you know the other jobs they’ve stuck out, whatever. Um, it’s much easier to consult them to say, yeah, this looks like a no win situation.

Mark:

Sure. And

Justin:

one that’s not healthy for you. And it’s easy to consult them to yeah, you probably should look for another job, you know And it’s just so natural and easy to advise someone in that situation. However, in that same situation in marriage, all those same things being true, I I understand this person, I understand their perseverance, I understand their work ethic, I understand their experience in their life and what they you know, what they’ve worked through and those kinds of things. And I look at the situation I say, Yeah, it’s probably unhealthy for you. It’s probably not gonna be a situation that can recover and my advice would be to move on. Dang, right?

Mark:

Yeah, and it’s interesting and we’re and I recognize this as an analogy.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

So I think it’s interesting from my perspective as we you you you have that dialogue, if you will. It’s always interesting to hear the so in a job you have an employee And then you have the job, the the the thing they do, the people they work for. So in your analogy, that would be like the husband and wife, in my opinion.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

So it’s like uh typically I’ll say, you know, there’s three sides to every story because there’s your truth, my truth, and uh No. And the r and the whole truth.

Justin:

The real truth. The real truth.

Mark:

You know, because you might have some yes, the true truth, because there’s certain aspects that you will see that are true according to the the third perspective and I’ll have some truth in but what I’m gonna share isn’t all truth just like what you’re sharing isn’t all truth that’s where the third side comes into play And I think, you know, in that dialogue that you share, so often, you know, it’s it is that scriptural dynamic that comes to play, you know, in in Proverbs where it talks about um the first person to share their point of view seems right until the other person comes into play and questions them, you know. And I think so often in that counseling, you know, of it’s like Well, what about this? What about, you know, well how many times were you late? You know, if somebody’s if If if somebody’s getting on you, you know, how many times did you not show up for work?

Justin:

He yells at me every single day when I get to work.

Mark:

It’s so negative.

Justin:

Are you on time?

Mark:

How many days did you miss last week? You know that

Justin:

‘s the two, the normal two. Just Monday and Tuesday because I don’t like those days.

Mark:

And I think there are those dynamics that factor into relationship. the, you know, the, I’ll call it the the unhealthy behaviors that I have that I bring with me to relationship. And I think some of those, you know, are, well, I think they’re all human dynamics, you know, that everyone brings into relationship. And yet, you know, and that but that’s and that’s where that I think where you were coming from, you know, I married the quote unquote wrong person You know, so often it’s as much what I contribute, you know, to that to that um dissatisfaction, if I may. as what the other person does. You know, and what I think in my mind where, and I do believe, you know, negative patterns develop quickly. or they can, you know, based on what I look for. I think that’s a large part of what can be even even when I just well right now even, so many of we’re doing the Mary John the Rock class. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I’m just it saddens me sometimes when I think about how many people are in that class based on a second relationship, second marriage, second and you know, and and what they share, you know, in that class is this aspect of Oh, I wish I had known this previously. And you know, I I sit I when I’m hearing that person say that, it’s like Ooh, that’s gotta sting to be sitting next to that person, you know, currently, and saying, man, I think if I’d known this, I could have maybe done something different with that previous relationship.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I and I sit with that and and I he when I hear that and it’s like That’s sad to me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because I b you know that person is saying this might have made a difference.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s and I guess that’s where my part of my passion comes from is a desire to communicate with people and and help maintain current relationships so that they don’t have to say and and and granted that’s not to say that some you know couples who you know marry people who with addiction and the or you know that kind of thing. I have nothing against them. But yeah, I’m also were able to recognize that’s not everybody’s circumstance who went through divorce. And I just that’s I I I like your line analogy because I believe there is a line because they’re, you know, healthy boundaries, you know, and it’s like, okay, is this something that we can, you know, we can relearn, you know, in the when I’m putting up my right and my left hand as a as a healthy boundary type dynamic because I believe My right hand is the ability to represent closeness. Okay? And my left hand is what represents um individuality. Independence. So I would I see healthy relationship as this ability to experience closeness, yet but yet we go to work and we can interact with other people in an independent manner that’s healthy. But yet we still kind of we so we sway back and forth, you know, in the process of a week through this experience of coming together in closeness. and separating in independence or interdependence that you know we know where each other are at, we know what you’re doing, that kind of thing that’s, you know But yet there’s typically this opportunity to come back together and yet not so far that my problems are your problems and your problems are my problems. You know, we’re not enmeshed. But yet we’re able to be interdependent and help one another. Ooh, do you need me to fix that or do you need me to just listen? You know, those kind of things. That’s that closeness. But then on the other end So I I say all that in a process of being able to recognize that from my perspective, divorce tends to go outside that boundary. where I’m just gonna go into isolation because that’s the only option I have left. Or I’m gonna lean towards this other person who understands me and meets these needs and accepts me just the way I am, you know, because because they’re willing to accept my problems. My spouse isn’t necessarily they just say, well, you’re you’re making excuses.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But this other person and it so I I recognize when we step outside of those boundaries we are far more likely to head towards divorce just based on that isolation or, you know, having quote unquote needs met outside of relationship because I don’t it’s it’s difficult it’s getting to a point where it’s difficult to turn back to relationship, so turn back towards my spouse. So I tend to turn towards other things or other people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Like you’re saying, like you said with Jesus, that well. that thirst. So sometimes I can recognize that I mean in in my own life my my well might be striving. You know, I work harder, I work harder, I work harder. But I need to recognize no, you know, five minutes with with God in prayer can do far more than five hours on my own.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, but I don’t always think that way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m not trying to confuse it, but I think, you know, that that well, that empty well or that well that we go to that we think is going to offer us, you know, satisfaction. It it doesn’t.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we’re and in that way we’re no different than this, you know, the Samaritan woman when we have those other wells. And I think it at times that can be the beginning of the end as far as relationship, you know, that leads towards that divorce when we’re dealing with issues of comfort. Because I think some of that comes back to I’ve just learned to be uncomfortable in this relationship.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think, you know, so often, um , even even as affairs can happen, you know in my mind, I’ve said all I can say, the only way that I know how to say it, and it still hasn’t created this change that I’m looking for.

Justin:

I’ve done everything I can, essentially, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And you know, obviously adding another person into the mix, in other words an affair or someone, you know, like even if even if it’s not a full blown affair, someone that’s able to provide for you some of the needs that you have that you’re longing for in your marriage. I mean that just complicates it to the nth degree, right. Sure. And um you know adv d dealing with the or advising for or against divorce or however that looks like becomes almost impossible with that in the picture.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And s so it’s kinda like, let’s not even go there in terms of

Mark:

Yeah. How

Justin:

to counsel that but or think about that or or, you know Yeah. Yeah, how to address that. Because I think the number one step there is well, you ha get that thing out of the picture first because until it’s out of the picture. the clouding will continue.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And the kind of the f the faux version of reality that you see there is gonna continue to draw. tug at you and say this is what it could be like.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

When the reality is like you said, second divorces look a lot like you know or second marriages look a lot like the first one because I go with it. You know, I sure I go to the next relationship and if I didn’t resolve some of my personal issues in the first one, well, I’m gonna be left to resolve them in the second one. Well, you know, or the third one or you know never or the fourth one or Yeah. You know, and um like like you’re saying, ultimately there are some pers some struggles that we have individually that we’re gonna bring into every relationship and until we address those divorces gonna look like the appealing option because it’s it’s about them, right? It’s always a another yeah.

Mark:

The blame.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I the other thing too about divorce I’ve realized is that it’s so mu it’s very easy for us to do the forgiveness versus permission thing, you know, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Uh on the other side of that, not being the person d getting divorced, but being, you know, on the it’s so easy for me personally to offer grace to those who’ve been divorced. Because it’s in the past. It’s like that decision is done I don’t have to think about that, you know, or like advise for that or n none of that. All I need to do is just walk with that person in their current reality and show grace like we’re supposed to. So that becomes easy and I I have no problem with that. I don’t have any problem with people who divorced. I I uh we have a lot of friends who are divorced and remarried and all that and Um yeah, I just see how God’s grace is so real in their life just as much as mine, you know, and but really th it just comes down to someone’s in the middle of it and you know i in the situations where it’s like, you know, feels like divorce is the right option here. It’s so hard and I don’t know if this is right and I don’t know if this is wrong and I don’t know where the line is to say yes that looks like something that is unhealthy and you need to leave that. You know, like it never quite feels right to say that. Sure. And I guess I’d love to get your take on that, Mark. Um And a little context for the listener, which you probably already know, which is Mark and Chris are some of the biggest advocates for marriage that I know. You know, they’re doing marriage on the rock like every other week basically. Right now they’re in a like leading uh fifty some people or something through this program, right? Like And you guys do this on a regular basis and Mark is a marriage and family therapist and like and so they are some of the biggest advocates for marriage that I know. And yet I also know that m you know, Mark, you’ve dealt with a lot of people going through this struggle and working through that. And I just I wanna know, is there a line mark that you found or Is there no line? And it’s like at I guess maybe to bury the lead or whatever is you mentioned walking with that person. Can you speak to that? Is it you know when do you get to that tipping point? Have you gotten to that tipping point? How do you wrestle with that personally? Huh. Isn’t the polarizing hard stuff?

Mark:

Um for me personally Um as I’m gonna start from the back, the last question towards the front. Where is that well no the first one was like where is that line for me? And then the last was kind of the tipping point as far as that goes Um, for me personally, um, I believe there is always hope. Okay. And what here here’s here’s where I draw that line because uh I’m I’m blessed in some ways by the ability to be a quote unquote professional. Okay. So some of those lines, some of that walking through with people Is a line that they choose. Okay, so when a couple basically says, okay, we’re gonna stop coming for therapy. Okay, that’s a line that I have no choice over. And that’s and that’s okay. It’s not preferential, but it is okay with me. Because people have recognized, okay, this either to their perspective isn’t helpful any longer, or we’ve made up our mind and we’re going in a different direction. And I don’t have any control over that. You know, if people want to continue to work with me and they’re recognizing that yes, this is helping and this is and we’re open to this and transformation is occurring, then I’m then I’m there. I’m in So you you does that make sense? Sometimes that line is drawn for me by the individuals I work with. But if a couple, okay, and here’s here’s where it comes back to for me personally, I believe there is always hope, and hope is an anchor you know, to where there is hope for the individual whose whose spouse there is hope. I’m I’m just putting it out there. There is hope for that individual to be able to overcome addiction. Okay. Now granted, are we get and I think where where people get it confused in from my perspective is hope just means I’m gonna keep doing what I’ve always done and something is gonna change. Okay? That’s not always what hope looks like. Hope can sometimes be, no, I’m gonna separate from this because it’s reactive and it’s unhealthy, you know, from for my kids. Somebody may get hurt. Okay, now when I speak of hurt, I’m talking more often, you know, of physical dynamic of abuse. Okay. And That’s not to say that that person pulling away and establishing a healthy boundary that says, no, I’m not subjecting myself and I’m not subjecting our children to abuse. Okay, now does that mean the person that’s being separated from isn’t going to experience some hurt? No, it doesn’t. They’re gonna they’re gonna experience a different hurt. But that I I’ll call it pain, if you will. You know, I believe is part of God’s ability to have a disciplinary process. You follow me?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That and so that’s that’s to where from my perspective, uh, personally, I just I just am that hopeful. Uh there there used to be a um um a theory or an operation it was all hope-focused marriage counseling, you know? And I just I just believe that’s where my heart is. That there’s hope when I’m willing to recognize that what I do, and it’s not about always blaming, okay? I’m willing to recognize there’s some things that I do. that contribute to, you know, this dynamic. And I would even say even in marriage, quite often there are things that spouses do that contribute to, not that it’s their fault, But it is there is this word enabling for a reason because sometimes, you know, I recognize you having an addiction. And I don’t want you getting mad at me, so I’ll buy whatever you want to keep you from getting mad at me. You follow me? And it and it promotes that cycle. So yes, there may be a need where you have to deal with that codependency on your part and say, no, in order for you to get healthy, I need to go step back. I need to get myself healthy. in such a way that says, okay, if you get mad, that’s okay. And I’m okay with you getting mad. But if you getting mad, if I can’t handle or if I’m overwhelmed or, you know, motivated by the fact that you might get angry, therefore I’m contributing, then I’m I’m culpable. You follow me? So that’s that’s kind of so that. So the fact that there is a opportunity for change. You know, and then yes, if a person I think there is a point where if a person just continues to choose you know, their addictive lifestyle, you know, after we’ve entered into this separation, then yeah, I I believe, you know, that becomes problematic. You know, is that not to say that that person, but I I have known people, you know, who have basically tried that for years. You know, and it didn’t work out and you know, but they’ve gone on to marry other people and you know that but typically once it gets to that point people quit seeing me.

Justin:

Yeah. So take off therapist hat. Yeah. You know, and approach it from, you know, a personal dynam dynamic of I mean, I I think at some point it does become too close, and we talked about that already, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But um Yeah, let’s assume it’s someone that you know and you love and they’re asking for your counsel on a personal from a personal aspect as your friend, as your whatever.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

And They’re they’re not walking away, you know, like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Again, I just want to know, Mark.

Mark:

You want a line.

Justin:

Where’s that line? Yeah. Is there a line? Is it just I I guess I have an a s assumption of what kind of what your thoughts are you what you know but So maybe I need to ask

Mark:

maybe I need to ask this, Justin, where is your line?

Justin:

All right. Here here’s my thoughts.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

So I I I’ve had some different situations where we’ve counseled people struggling in marriage or whatever. And one of the most recent ones was a guy that I met with for quite a while. And um The thing with his situation was there was a lot of stuff in the m relationship that were because of his own hurts habits and hang ups, right? Sure. And, you know, he was doing celebrate cover. He was working through this stuff and really came to a place of you know, victory for over these things, um, you know, to a a large degree.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To where I looked at him and go, You’re a pretty normal husband now. You know, it’s like And no and you now you just have the normal flaws.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But also all the baggage, right? Sure. So that that came with the the the previous addictions and stuff and um and resulting pains that came with that, you know? Um and the marriage f just kept feeling um helpless like Like hopeless probably where the wife would only stay with him because sh She didn’t know why really and kept saying, I don’t know if I want to be with you and it just really felt hopeless. But and so he would come in kind of you know, we would get together and he he would be very despairing. Often and I’m like, I don’t blame you, man, oof, that’s hard. I said, there might be a day where it’s time But based on this, this and this, I don’t think today is that day.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it was kinda like that was how the conversation went until we stopped meeting, you know. And it never got to the point where I had to say, you know, where I felt like, yeah, it’s pretty clear, you know. Mm-hmm. And that’s kind of where I’m at. It’s like I don’t know where my line is. I think

Mark:

where I’m going to be.

Justin:

Where I would advise, yeah, it’s probably time. You know, you, your family it would all likely be more healthy if you if you, you know, divorced or whatever. Um and this is one very specific scenario. And but I guess that’s kinda where where I see it is where th they’re It’s kinda like kicking the can down the road until you can’t anymore.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know. That’s kind of my perspective. So is there a line? Uh not really and then he says you just keep kicking till you can’t anymore and then you know I don’t know. I was like it’s too hard of a question for me

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

To to give it a line. So that’s kind of where I’m at.

Mark:

Yeah. And that’s and that’s where I come back to. It’s gonna come down to an individual dynamic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Number one, for me, personally or professionally, I’m not gonna make that choice for someone.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because it and this this is this has happened to me more times than and I I respect the Yeah. It’s respect I respect the fact that I have a passion, but I’m no better at this than any other professional out there. And what the reason I say that is because I think sometimes in our professional dynamic And I’ve had this happen in my office. You know, a couple who’s been married for fifteen years, you know, or twenty years, uh, you know, they’ll come to me and say, Well, we went for counseling ten years ago. You know, and that therapist at that time told me that I should just go ahead and separate from it. It’s like Okay, I’m I’m not I’m not necessarily gonna make that decision for somebody, let alone tell them that. You know, I believe that’s something that they have to wrestle with, you know uh or am i g am i willing to walk with them in that and entertain and bring everybody together sure and yet there’s that part of me that says okay you’re back to see someone Now, ten years later, what’s going on right now?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

What’s what’s the circumstantial dynamic that creates this stress, this pressure this, you know, opportunity to where when we get to this level, we recognize we need help and we start thinking about separating. You follow me? Because realistically, we’ve had these 10 years and it and this happens a lot, you know, five years, ten years, you know, it’s like Well how how was this possible, you know, that yes, ten years ago you were thinking about separating, and then we’ve had this window, because evidently it hasn’t been just terrible all along. You follow me? We’re at this, we’ve we’ve we’ve come we’ve you know we’ve we’re in this deep, we’re in this valley moment now that we’re considering and we’re you know stress levels are high. So that that’s kind of where I draw that perspective from. And then that’s where I come back to, okay, well what what is it that keeps you in this relationship? What is it about him? What is it about her that y attracted you to that person? And I think so often it is about that ability to reshift, you know, from a negative focus to a positive focus as far as Well, like we talk about here, you know, we can look at the facets of an individual and label them, okay, based on those f negative facets, if you will, or those in our what we do here, the similar facets And so therefore they are blank. But yet there’s so many other facets of an individual that we either choose not to see. Or that are very similar to us, and therefore they don’t matter as much. And so I think, you know, in that process. So so coming back to your question about the line I think for me, there isn’t a specific line. There’s a general line that is able to identify, okay, healthy boundaries like and and granted boundaries boundaries aren’t boundaries are are fuzzy lines.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Yeah. Because, you know, so yeah, there is a there is a there is a crossing over And my spouse kind of gets to define that. But what looks like crossing a line for you in your relationship is going to be different than somebody else in their relationship. And you know, and so often I would as as you were talking about that couple, um And here again, I don’t I mean, I don’t know either individual. I just want to put that out there. But I think so often, you know, in that process of transformation, you know, resentment comes into play.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, where, you know, I’ve I’ve dealt with this so long or you know, this has been going on for twelve years and now you’ve become a a good husband and now what am I supposed to do with that? Why couldn’t you have done this? five years ago. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing and being and I here again, I don’t know these people, but you know, I can understand how that kind of resentment can come into play and yet I also recognize depending on a spiritual relationship with God I can overcome that resentment.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah there’s even resentment can surface once you see someone start to to heal and and move. Quite often. Yeah, because it’s like Wait a second, you’re saying I could have had this my whole life?

Mark:

Yes. Why where was this five years ago?

Justin:

Yeah, and so then it can just be that can be the shocking pull you out of denial on the s the other side to be able to Sure like, Well crap, it really was bad. And now all of the anger that was suppressed through, you know, coping mechanisms is starting to see seep out everywhere and And the other spouse is left going, but but but but I’m better. Like I’m doing the good stuff. Yeah. And it’s like

Mark:

Well why bother? At that point that person says, Why bother?

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And we can see how those cycles can be created. And it’s and the the interest here’s the other part of that. It’s um there’s this there is this dynamic called homeostasis. to where when I des when I do change, quite often my system resists me out of a desire to maintain homeostasis, maintain what status quo. And so yes, the what you’re what you’re describing is is part of systems to where yeah the system will fight.

Justin:

And the system needs to be reset, right? Like that equilibrium needs to shift. The homeostasis needs to shift.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And but that’s you know that’s That’s hard.

Mark:

Yes. Yeah. And that’s where both people have to actually relearn some of these psychodynamics that have taken, not taken, but have been established. over time and you do this and I do this. So when I’m trying to relearn, you have to relearn at the same time

Justin:

Yeah, it’s so hard. And the other the physics term that comes to mind is inertia, right? Like when something starts spinning and you stop you try and stop The thing that started it, it’s like but the inertia keeps the movement going and you’re fighting that, you know. So you know, you may have stopped the behavior that was Spinning the top, but the top keeps spinning and it’s like, Well wait a second, but I’m not doing it anymore. Yeah, there’s inertia there. That’s that homeostasis you’re talking about where the system’s already set in place and it takes a long time for a top to stop, right? Sure.

Mark:

And that’s where I’ll run into it, you know, with with people, it’s like, okay, it’s been years that we’ve been living with this cycle dynamic And we just want it fixed now. So it should only take like five sessions and we can, you know, complete it’s like, no, you know, we’re not gonna, you know it’s been five years to establish this, we’re not gonna stop it in five minutes type stuff. And I think that can be a you know, it’s expectation. So I and I guess that’s w as I as I think about our topic of divorce, I know we’ve kinda made it about boundaries. But I I want to put that, I want to offer that hope to people. And as I think about that I can think what well, I guess what it comes back to to me, and I guess part of my passion is when I think about it. Divorce tends to be very isolating. And what I enjoy about the group dynamics, well, even CR, but what I enjoy about the group dynamics of you know, the classes we do, it’s like I’m able to sit in that room with other people and hear, oh my goodness, you deal with that too? You’ll experience that in your relationship too. And from my perspective, divorce, you know, is that dynamic that leads to isolation. Where I can’t in some ways I can’t talk with you, you know, in a in a relationship dynamic. So I I may talk with a few other people. Some of those people may just be encouraging me to separate, you know, and I don’t necessarily have people who are giving me that advice that would basically say, well Help me understand how you’re contributing to this.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and really challenging that. And I think support is is really helpful. Healthy support.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

is very helpful in avoiding some of those pitfalls that lead to divorce.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I think a lot of people I and I admire people who are able to say, yeah, I want to get it right this time. Because I’ve experienced that hurt and I see how it’s affected you know, my spouse, I see how it’s affecting our children, you know, and I want to get it right this time. And I I just admire people who are able to say Okay, yeah, that’s what I did, and that’s how I contribute. And I want to change that in me because I realize if I could have dealt with that maybe a while back, it could have changed things for us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it. You had the thought there in that process.

Justin:

No, I just I’m just I can’t help but keep thinking about that person who There’s always hope, right? I agree with you on that. But there’s also that person who’s just Dead tired. And due to the dysfunction in their relationship, they are wiped out. And you say, all you have to do is get back up and run a mile. It’s like No, you don’t understand.

Mark:

No, I gotcha.

Justin:

You know, and I I just have my mind keeps coming back to that and I’m I guess just you know, I just feel that compassion for that person is like It’s gonna be work. It’s gonna be hard. You’re gonna have to learn some new skills. You’re gonna ha you know basically you have to go to boot camp. You know, and it’s like I just feel like I got done running a marathon with a broken leg in the rain, you know, just beat up, beat down, and I don’t when you say more work, it makes me want to just Give up.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? And that’s that’s the part that’s so hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I don’t I don’t know how you but but I I also believe there’s always hope and I believe that the Holy Spirit can infuse them with what they need and I believe that we, the people around them, can be the ones to help them to stand up and kind of put our arm around their shoulder and help them limp across the finish line, right? Sure. I believe that there’s opportunities there. But I just want to recognize that it’s not as simple as Well, you just gotta do some work and you gotta do some changes and part of this is your fault and I agree. Yeah

Mark:

and and I and I appreciate what you share. Um, because I wanna I wanna recognize there’s a tremendous difference between hope and optimism. Hope and expectation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And um I I apologize. Uh tet the the the the the the the part that’s coming to mind Is it what it wasn’t seven habits? I think it was it seven no. It’s the red it’s I can picture the book, it’s got a red cover on it. Highly hab of successful people. Seven

Justin:

habits of highly effective people.

Mark:

No, that’s Stephen Covey.

Justin:

Yeah. What’s the

Mark:

The Collins is his name. Either way. It was it was one of those business books.

Justin:

Yeah, the the bus one.

Mark:

Nope, not the bus one. But either way, it talked about and is this is what it ‘s it’s it’s yeah.

Justin:

The Collins book that’s read, guys.

Mark:

Yeah, that one. Um he talks about uh a POW camp and the individual in the camp, the the kind of the leader that survived that camp um basically said, you know, forget about optimism. He says, because here’s what happens. He says, when you have the idea, you know, you can maintain optimism for about so long. But when Christmas comes, if your hope was that when Christmas comes we’ll be out, he said, at that point, when Christmas comes I can uh you’re you will be defeated and therefore you will die.

Justin:

Yeah. Your optism optimism swings to the other side.

Mark:

Yes, because I missed uh my expectation was that it would happen by here You follow me. Or you know, and and I I apologize because it’s so vivid in my mind.

Justin:

Good to great?

Mark:

Yes. Yes. Who wrote Good to Great?

Justin:

Well, I think Collins, because that’s what

Mark:

Yes, it’s good to great.

Justin:

I’ll look it up.

Mark:

It’s good to great. Yes, thank you. I appreciate that. Now no now there’s other people too.

Justin:

You’re welcome, Linda.

Mark:

But yeah, some good to great in that process. And um uh you could the it’s in that book. And like you say, I know it’s highlighted in my comic. Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s what you know. But

Justin:

Jim Collins.

Mark:

Yes. Thank you.

Justin:

Between the two of us. We we know that book. I don’t think I’ve read it, but I remember when the chart staff was

Mark:

I will I will uh send that to you to be able to put it in if you would like to as a as a link, you know, a page and copy type thing. Cool. But it but it was just really good and I think so often we can get hope mixed up with optimism. And when those times come, it’s easy to lose my optimism and then I become bitter.

Justin:

Yeah. I think For me, I just want to convey some compassion there. It’s it’s the main thing to just I agree with you. If that this is your struggle, man, I feel I feel you and it I I don’t it’s just I have no desire to just say, well, you just gotta do that.

Mark:

Yeah, and I I I by all means I agree with you. Yeah. This is not a polarizing issue where we’re concerned.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I want to recognize, yeah It’s not getting up and running a mile. And and sometimes even just the next step can seem like a marathon.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think about it very similar to how we’ve talked about depression. Mm-hmm. Because you’re just telling me to to move on and just do this, just do this and everything will change. And yet you don’t understand.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s where it comes back to that ability to say, okay Yeah, I respect that’s where you are and I’m willing to be your friend right here, yeah, right now, in the midst of this.

Justin:

Yep. Yep. Yeah, and you know, back to this specific person in this specific strugg struggle too it That’s one of the things one of the primary tools in recovery for how do I get through today? Like how do I get through this current wave of uh desire, craving, like to not go back to that substance or that that solution. And we always say it’s one day at a time, one moment at a time, right? And

Mark:

ten minutes at a time.

Justin:

Exactly. So if that means you know Stay there on the ground, take another breath.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Just get through this moment. We’re not asking you to get up right now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, but you know as well as anyone else out here, like eventually you gotta get up

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

One way or another, but right now, take that mo you know, get through this moment.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and I think hope Is better when the future is left in the hands of a higher power.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we take on the present moment And that’s where the hope lives. The Bible says we have enough grace just for today.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

He’s given us a very specific dose for today.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And sometimes we borrow w we take take from t we tr attempt to take from tomorrow’s dose or we attempt to use today’s dose to to work through tomorrow tomorrow’s problems and guess what? The r the ration doesn’t quite hold up in that scenario.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And I think that’s the thing when they’re in that situ because even if you’re heading towards divorce, you know, even if that’s the the quote unquote solution to the issue You’re not gonna make that decision this minute most often, right? Like um And so you gotta g you know, I mean obviously there’s there’s always a moment where then then.

Mark:

Sometimes, yeah, when we entertain that option Yeah, we start thinking that way. But yeah, so I’m hearing where you’re coming from.

Justin:

Yeah, I guess I’m just saying it is about the moments. It is especially in traumatic situations or in the case of recovery and addiction and in those like Those moments that are pulling at you so hard can you get through this minute to then report on it. You know, okay, you did it. Can you get through the next minute? Can you get like you said, the next ten minutes Can we get to the end of the day? You know? And that’s what that’s about when you’re just exhausted, you have nothing else, you know, to do is but can you Can you can you sit there? Can you rest? Can you s get up and walk a few steps and sit back down? You know? That that that would be my I guess take on someone who’s in that position is like, well let’s rest a little bit first before we

Mark:

Yeah You know, run

Justin:

the marathon out of this. Whichever direction you go, it’s gonna be a a marathon. Like that’s the other thing to understand about divorce is often it’s perceived as the easy way out. And you can interview literally anybody who’s been divorced and they will tell you that was not an easy way out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? Because it’s hard and it’s

Mark:

And I and as you’re sharing, like you say, I want to offer compassion. And I think at times, you know, so often the individual that is just exhausted. um has found themselves in the process of doing it all. You follow me in that? They and they are exhausted. And my first, my first thing to them would be, okay, step back a little bit. You don’t have to do it all If you’re doing it all in this relationship, you have to pull back even in some ways just to make room for someone else to help. You have to make a vacuum in some ways for that other individual to step in. And until you do, they’re not going to. There’s no need. So I’m with you in that process of being able to say, yeah, it’s okay to pull back. So yeah, I think I appreciate your bringing up the topic this morning, Justin. And like you say, I’m not I don’t necessarily feel that uh We uh dealt well with just that topic of divorce, but well, I I I appreciate the ability to talk about it in a polarizing way. that hopefully offers encouragement for you know couples who are wrestling and I with that and I also hope that basically we’ve been able to convey a compassion for people who have experienced divorce and the ability to say, okay, yeah, what you know, going forward, what does it look like for me to be a healthy individual in the next time?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, I think compassion, like you said, and and understanding that. Man, I I just Yeah. I wish that they didn’t have to come out on the other side and then deal with not only the struggles of a new life but also defending that choice. And it’s like but m but that’s the why it’s a personal choice. Like you said, ultimately it’s gonna come down to your individual choice. and the reality of what you know, what you’re gonna have to live with after that, what whatever that looks like, right? Including the did I do the wrong thing and defending it and all that. It’s like But at the same time, there’s no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And let’s move forward and use what’s behind us to propel us forward and that’s pretty much how I see it.

Mark:

And that’s how I see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.