0:06
you have no issues no issues there there there there is that where you can see it

0:12
cuz I'm okay if you slide that over because there's no use that being near me no offense you know I am offended

0:19
yeah well you're might easily offended this morning Justin I'm offended every time you use

0:26
the term no offense is that is that what offends you itself yes yeah of itself is

0:32
understood it's my trigger so here's so here's your uh here's here's the bait for the morning Justin how are you I'm

0:40
Dandy nice well done I'm glad you're

0:46
Dandy uh besides being Dandy I'm a little sleepy oh yeah but but but but

0:52
wow can't get that but but but but but good Dandy I'm glad to hear you Dandy

0:58
yeah how are you I am well I'm excited for the day it's just uh I think you

1:03
know these These springier Days yeah have that tendency give you a little spring in your step yeah exactly yeah

1:10
yeah same yep yes oh there's oh we're keeping Justin

1:16
up he's ready to go back to bed uh I'm sure I could I'm sure I could

1:22
unlike uh unlike you Mark I know once I'm up man I tell you I'm ready to go

1:27
yeah I'm usually that way yeah I would [Music]

1:36
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:43
a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful

1:49
[Music] conversations so today yeah we're going

1:56
to cover a pretty polarizing subject yeah um I think it gets even more

2:03
polarizing when you get into the Evangelical or you know the kind of I

2:08
guess Christian Perspective right sure um and that subject is divorce yeah so

2:17
when I say divorce what's the first thing that comes to mind honestly for me

2:26
um I had a mentor a close friend like you say and his son actually it was

2:33
a it was a couple that separated that basically I think I mentioned them

2:39
in the when I talked about last one of the podcasts back about holy discontent

2:46
there was a couple that separated Yep this uh this man that was my

2:53
mentor his son was the individual getting divorced and and we really got

3:01
into I mean in hindsight it wasn't necessarily a uh uh it was it was too

3:09
close to both of us to really discuss you know what was going on well yeah you

3:17
know because it was just too personal it was too raw yeah and I so I remember

3:22
when you mentioned divorce that's that's really what comes to mind for me was

3:27
that conversation and that interaction with him um cuz we had moved to North

3:32
Carolina and I made the mistake of sending him a letter with my thoughts in it and that just wasn't the right thing

3:40
to do and you know and we got back together and he shared his thoughts with me in a face Toof face confrontation

3:46
which was far more you know mature on his part but yeah I just I just remember

3:54
you know and and it taught me a lot yeah you know because I think we can

4:00
recognize that what from what it taught me was I was able to recognize I'm not

4:05
in this I'm not going through this so for me to kind of step back to the side

4:11
or sit back and just kind of judge from my vantage point wasn't beneficial MH

4:19
and you know and I think we can have that t like so many things you know it's

4:25
like I can I can judge it from a distance but when when it's the people

4:30
near me it's when it's my my marriage when it's you know my you know

4:36
significant friend or family member I think that's that's a helpful thing when

4:43
we're able to recognize how personal that Dynamic is because I do believe no

4:49
one desires to get divorced from the altar people don't get married in order

4:56
to be divorced or else they wouldn't do that thing called vows yeah yeah yeah

5:01
yeah so I'm sorry that's a that's a long question long answer to your question but that's what comes to mind about you

5:09
well you may me think about you know because you're basically talking about when you can't be objective you're

5:15
naturally subjective sure right to to a subject and it kind of makes me think of

5:21
those Vision tests where it's like you know if if you're what is it farsighted if something's too close to you it's not

5:28
in focus right blurry and so you kind of have to move it further away before it

5:33
kind of comes into Focus or in vice versa if you're you're nearsighted like

5:38
it needs to be pretty close for you to be able to focus on it and any further it starts to sure and I feel like

5:44
there's some you know it's it's a pretty good analogy for um requiring objective

5:50
eyes to be able to speak into a subject for that Focus right for that Clarity

5:57
and sometimes we're just too darn close I need to pull it back or I you know I just have to recognize I don't have the

6:04
required level of objectivity to speak into a thing yeah that's something I've

6:12
hard learned as well Mark is like speaking into things I had no business

6:18
doing because I was too close and so my my vision of it is like oh that's got to

6:24
be an e and an f and a two like oh no actually it was an A and A B you know

6:30
yeah and there's been many times that exactly that situation happened was like I had it all summed up and based on the

6:36
blurry version I saw I was pretty sure it was this yeah spoke into it and I was like yeah I kind of missed the Mark I

6:42
don't know if that's what the kind of thing here it's it's to the point of being able to recognize that when I am

6:50
looking at something not to use the near and far but when I'm looking at something from a distance I can have it

6:56
pretty well figured out yeah but when I go in when I'm actually in the box if

7:02
you will or in you know when I interact with those people it's like okay yeah

7:07
this is this is different than I thought it was and I think even even scripturally you know when the Pharisees

7:15
addressed divorce with Jesus you know and he was able you know and Jesus you

7:21
know shared you know it's because of your hardness of your heart that's what

7:26
Jesus shared from my perspective scripturally you know know as they're defining divorce I recognize there's a lot of

7:34
hurt that goes with that hardening it's not that people just choose and I Think

7:40
Jesus understood this yeah you know we see his compassion for you know for the

7:45
Samaritan woman the woman at the well who had been married five times you know and yet at the same time and and the guy

7:52
she was currently living with is not her husband so you know she had experienced that rejection that divorce five times

8:00
and got to the point where she was basically recognizing okay I'm just not good at this I'm going to give up mhm

8:07
and yeah I I need a guy around but at the same time you know and I and I and

8:12
what I what I see in that if if I may from our perspective is I see that Jesus

8:19
understood that Hardness of Heart that comes you know with with hurt in

8:26
relationship but yet un like us there's not a

8:32
condemnation right necessarily in that and I think and I think you know when

8:37
God talks about um God talks about the fact that you know basically the

8:43
children of Israel divorced him you know they turned their backs on him so I I I

8:50
take that from an aspect that says Okay God completely understands what couples

8:56
who are going through divorce feel like and he has compassion for them he

9:02
doesn't necessarily desire that you know he doesn't necessarily but yeah it's

9:08
it's not a condemnation and I think so often from

9:14
and even even just bringing up that topic it's like well we we should we almost need a divorce person in the room

9:20
you know to to speak to that but yet that's kind of where I come back to is you know God understands that and from

9:29
some times from our married vantage point it's easy to say well this this

9:34
and this MH and when we get into that level of oh okay yeah I didn't see it

9:41
that way and recognize you know that no one chooses that that that's that's where it becomes

9:49
you know that aspect of the polarizing Dynamics come a little more into balance

9:54
MH does that make sense yeah it does absolutely I think um

10:01
yeah I I I think part of the reason it's good to talk about it even from our

10:08
perspective is because um I think there's some there it's important to

10:13
basically come to a place of compassion that you said that aligns with God's level of compassion as people who you

10:20
know are happily married and trying to consult with or help those who are considering divorce I think sometimes uh

10:28
especially in the Chris chrisan World it can be like well that's the nuclear option and you should never choose it

10:33
you know yeah and man that's a hard one to figure out

10:39
and that's why you know that's why it's polarizing like I said especially in the Christian Community because we're we're

10:45
pretty clear on what God's word says about it right yeah and yet um I read this pretty good article

10:52
yesterday um by a friend a friend of a friend basically um and they discuss

10:58
some issues in their previous marriage where there was some abuse um abuse verbally and abuse you know some

11:05
different levels of abuse and on top of it some uh hidden addiction and different things like that and um not

11:12
providing for the family different things like there there's pretty significant list of things and it was a

11:20
little bit sad to me to hear her have to try and like go to court like here's my

11:26
reasons that you know I I needed to do this sure defending herself defend

11:32
herself yeah and when you know she's was already spending years and years defending herself against her own

11:37
husband you know that kind of thing and then um like you said you know the Bible

11:42
says therefore there is no condemnation for those who are Christ Jesus um and when he approached that woman at the

11:49
well the purpose of him calling out you know all of her past marriage

11:56
indiscretions was to point to make a very clear point to her that what you're

12:02
seeking is empty sure what you're seeking is not filling your thirst sure you know there wasn't condemnation in

12:08
that you know and if you ever get a chance to watch The Chosen oh yeah you know I think the very last episode of

12:14
the first season it is that scene sure and uh it you know it's very much aligns

12:20
with the biblical story yeah uh but just to kind of see the way their expressions play out their you know like it's just

12:27
beautiful to see how um there wasn't condemnation in jesus'

12:33
words but instead Freedom yeah spirit and Truth spirit and Truth yeah yes yes

12:39
yeah yeah to be able to recognize that yeah there isn't that that

12:45
condemnation but yet you know and and Jesus desires to minister to our hearts MH yeah first

12:53
and foremost I guess I would say in some ways you know I mean I think that's the holy of holies in ways our in our body

13:00
is is our heart and you know to be able to recognize that you know God cares

13:06
about the heart and those who follow him you know you know their hearts are

13:11
transformed by his presence so yeah I I I still want to bring that back to the

13:17
whole divorce and I'm sorry like I say that's it's interesting because I think

13:23
what you bring up about what happens in marriage you know in the process of I

13:31
think sometimes we want to kind of smooth over all that and I

13:39
think you know so often it does come down to us being able to walk with that individual just like Jesus did you know

13:46
and say you know it it's not that and that and I think that's what I learned from that letter I you know when I wrote

13:53
that letter it was a blanket statement that said all divorce is because of this

13:58
hardness of heart you follow me and I I didn't have the compassion for

14:04
individuals at that point who are experiencing you know Addiction in

14:11
relationship you know abuse in relationship because I do believe you

14:16
know marriage you know as even as I would see it or as I believe God sees it

14:22
you know marriage is um well it's an opportunity for use but not abuse mhm so

14:30
my body doesn't necessarily belong to me it belongs to my spouse when we enter

14:36
into marriage and vice versa we become one yeah and so therefore I do you know

14:42
it's like draw there there are I believe there are boundaries yes I believe there

14:48
has to be boundaries to be able to say okay you know this is this is too far

14:54
and we need and I and I I routinely work with you know individuals who even may

14:59
need to separate and I have no issue with separation you know in a in a way

15:06
that is able to repair or reunify in some ways you know as we deal with our

15:12
own individual behaviors to be able to come back but I also recognize that that's not going to necessarily work

15:19
with every couple MH and my heart you know goes out to those couples and and

15:24
even this lady you know who's basically having to defend herself because I think you know that becomes a in what was her

15:31
role what was in like in the church she was she was a worship leader okay sure

15:38
yep and you know her story is pretty significant in that there's more more

15:43
than that in her life you know she struggled with various kinds of sexual

15:48
abuse from different leaders in the church and things like that sure so

15:54
there's certainly a pattern there that I think you know tied into to the fact

15:59
that I'm supposed to play this role you know of a submissive person whatever

16:04
that is and I think yeah it's it's just a really sad situation and it's like you

16:09
read that and go no you're not suppos yeah get out you know whatever um but

16:16
there's man there's this balance right so obviously marriage in terms of

16:21
Covenant is higher than like a job right cuz you literally stand before each

16:27
other and you vow you know that God says a lot about vows and so I think we we we're supposed to take them very

16:33
seriously and and we do you know in marriage generally um but I think about

16:39
it like in a job you know very often immature people will say this job sucks

16:45
and I want out and they'll explain all the reasons why and if they're able to

16:50
consult with the someone who's had some years you know in the job world or whatever has a little bit of wisdom some

16:57
experience under their they're belt they're able to say you know what some of this is true but some of this is you

17:04
you know and jobs are hard and perseverance is very important in career

17:10
right like learning how to be diligent learning how to persevere through difficult circumstances learning the

17:15
tools required to address conflict like there's just so many important things that you have to learn early early on in

17:22
your career um to establish being able to be

17:27
a good employee you know and that being said there are costic job environments

17:33
right where it's like no you shouldn't stay in that you know and determining where that line is is very difficult and

17:40
yet we we don't then when someone leaves a job go pretty sure you send send hard

17:47
like that that's a big no no in the big book you you left that job you know yeah

17:53
where divorce obviously there's some significant you know verbiage in the Bible that can make it very condemning

18:01
and I think that's that's the thing that's so obviously so polarizing is as

18:08
um Christians who want to counsel others it's not like a job we like well you need to stick it out you need to

18:14
persevere until a certain point and then it's like okay then maybe it's time to look for a new job and that's okay you can't say that right it's like

18:22
have you ever said that Mar you need stick it out persevere do your best do this but if it doesn't work out it's

18:27
okay you just find another one yeah another job another no another spouse

18:33
another spouse yeah I I've never said that say yeah I don't I doubt that's ever come up in Mark's marriage counseling although you know maybe

18:41
tomorrow just we think we've seen it all but maybe not quite yes I hear you but

18:48
you know what I'm saying like it's uh I feel like the job thing is a good correlation in terms of you don't just

18:56
counsel someone to leave a job you know typically yeah but if you know a person

19:02
well and you know what they're capable of and you know their work e you know you know you know them pretty well you

19:08
know what they've been through you know the other jobs they've stuck out whatever U it's much easier to consult

19:13
them to say yeah this looks like a no- win situation sure and one that's not

19:19
healthy for you and it's easy to consult them yeah you probably should look for another job you know and it's just so

19:25
natural and easy to advise someone in that situation however in that same situation in

19:31
marriage all those same things being true I I understand this person I understand their perseverance I

19:36
understand their work ethic I understand their experience in their life and what they you know what theyve worked through

19:42
and those kinds of things and I look at this situation I said yeah it's probably unhealthy for you it's probably not

19:48
going to be a situation that can recover and my advice would be to move on dang

19:55
right yeah and it's interesting and we're and I recogniz this is an analogy

20:00
yes so I think it's interesting from my perspective as you

20:06
you you have that dialogue if you will it's always interesting to hear the so

20:12
in a job you have an employee and then you have the job the

20:20
the the thing they do the people they work for MH so in your analogy that would be like the husband and wife in my

20:27
opinion Okay so it's like typically I'll say you know there's three sides to every story MH because there's your

20:35
truth my truth and not you know marks no and the and the whole truth the real

20:42
truth the real truth you know because you might have some yes the true truth because there's certain aspects that you

20:49
will see that are true according to the the third perspective and I'll have some

20:55
truth and but what I'm going to share isn't all truth truth just like what you're sharing isn't all truth that's

21:01
where the third side comes into play and I think you know in that dialogue that

21:06
you share so often you know it's it is that scriptural Dynamic that comes to

21:12
play you know in in Proverbs where it talks about um the first person to share

21:17
their point of view seems right until the other person comes into play and questions them you know and I think so

21:24
often in that counseling you know of it's like well what about this what

21:31
about you know well how many times were you late you know if somebody's if if

21:38
somebody's getting on you you know how many times did you not show up for work

21:43
he yells at me every single day when I get to work it's just every day is on my back it's so negative are you on

21:51
time yeah how many days did you miss last week you know that just the two the

21:56
normal two just Monday and Tuesday cuzz I don't like those days and I think there are

22:03
those dynamics that factor into relationship the you know the I'll call

22:10
it the the unhealthy behaviors that I have that I bring with me to

22:17
relationship and I think some of those you know are well I think they're all human

22:24
dynamics yeah you know that everyone brings into relationship and yet you know and that's

22:32
and that's where that I think where you were coming from you know I married the quote unquote wrong person you know so

22:39
often it's as much what I contribute you know to that to that um dissatisfaction

22:48
if I may as what the other person does you know and what I think in my mind

22:54
where and I do believe you know negative patterns develop quickly

22:59
or they can you know based on what I look for I think that's a large part of

23:06
what can be even even when I just well right now even so many of we're doing

23:13
the marriage on the Rock class MH and you know I'm just it saddens me

23:18
sometimes when I think about how many people are in that class based on a

23:24
second relationship second marriage second and you know and and what they

23:29
share you know in that class is this aspect of oh I wish I had known this

23:37
previously and you know i s i when I'm hearing that person say that it's like

23:44
oh that's got a sting to be sitting next to that person you know currently and

23:49
saying man I think if I'd known this I could have maybe done something

23:57
different with that previous relationship you know and I and I sit with that and I when I hear that and

24:03
it's like that's sad to me yeah you know because I you know that person is saying

24:10
this might have made a difference yeah and that's and I guess that's where my

24:16
part of my passion comes from is a desire to communicate with people and

24:21
and help maintain current relationships so that they don't have to say and and granted

24:29
that's not to say that some you know couples who you know marry people who with addiction or you know that kind of

24:36
thing I have nothing against them but yet I'm also able to recognize that's not everybody's circumstance who went

24:45
through divorce MH and I just that's yeah I I I like your line analogy

24:52
because I believe there is a line because there you know healthy boundaries you know and it's like

24:58
okay is this something that we can you know we can relearn you know in the when

25:05
I'm putting up my right and my left hand as a as a healthy boundary type dynamic because I believe my my right hand is

25:13
the ability to represent closeness okay and my left hand is what

25:20
represents um individuality Independence so I would I

25:25
see healthy relationship as this ability to experience closeness yet but yet we

25:31
go to work and we can interact with other people in an independent manner that's healthy but yet we still kind of

25:38
we so we sway back and forth you know in the process of a week through this

25:43
experience of coming together in closeness and separating in Independence

25:49
or interdependence that you know we know where each other at we know what you're doing that kind of thing that's you know

25:56
but yet there's typically this opportunity to come back together and yet not so far that my problems are your

26:04
problems and your problems are my problems you know we're not in meshed but yet we're able to be interdependent

26:10
and help one another ooh you need me to fix that or do you need me to just

26:17
listen you know those kind of things that's that closeness but then on the other end so I I say all that in a

26:24
process of being able to recognize that from my perspective

26:29
divorce tends to go outside that boundary where I'm just going to go into

26:35
isolation because that's the only option I have left or I'm going to lean towards

26:41
this other person who understands me and meets these needs and accepts me just

26:48
the way I am you know because because they're willing to accept my problems my

26:54
spouse isn't necessarily they just say well you're you're making excuses yeah but this other person and so I

27:01
recognize when we step outside of those boundaries we are far more likely to

27:08
head towards divorce just based on that isolation or you know having quotee

27:15
unquote needs met outside of relationship because I don't it's it's

27:20
diff it's getting to a point where it's difficult to turn back to relationship

27:25
so turn back towards my spouse so I tend to turn towards other things or other people yeah like you're saying like you

27:32
said with Jesus that well mhm that thirst MH so sometimes I can recognize

27:38
that I mean in in my own life my my well might be striving you know I work harder

27:44
I work harder I work harder but I need to recognize no you know five minutes with with God

27:52
and prayer can do far more than five hours on my own yeah you know but I

27:57
don't always think that way yeah and I'm not trying to confuse it but I think you know that that well that empty well or

28:04
that well that we go to that we think is going to offer us you know

28:10
satisfaction it it doesn't yeah and we're and in that way we're no different

28:16
than the you know the Samaritan woman when we have those other Wells and I think it at times that can be the

28:23
beginning of the end as far as relationship you know that leads towards that divorce

28:29
when we're dealing with issues of comfort mhm because I think

28:36
some of that comes back to I've just learned to be uncomfortable in this

28:42
relationship yeah and I and I think you know so often um even even as Affairs

28:49
can happen you know in my mind I've said all I can say the only way that I know

28:57
how to say it and it still hasn't created this change that I'm looking for I've done

29:04
everything I can essentially yeah yeah yeah and you know obviously adding another person into the mix in other

29:11
words an affair or someone you know like even if even if it's not a full-blown Affair someone that's able to provide

29:18
for you some of the needs that you have that you're longing for in your marriage mhm I mean that just complicates it to

29:25
the nth degree right and um you

29:31
know dealing with the or advising for against divorce or however that looks

29:36
like becomes almost impossible with that in the picture sure and so it's kind of

29:42
like let's not even go there in terms of yeah how to counsel that but or or think

29:48
about that or or you know yeah yeah how to address that cuz I think the number

29:53
one step there is well you get that thing out of the picture first because

29:59
until it's out of the picture the clouding will continue yeah and the kind of the the faux version of reality that

30:07
you see there is going to continue to draw tug at you and say this is what it

30:12
could be like yeah when reality is like you said second divorces look a lot like you or second marriages look a lot like

30:18
the first one because I go with it you know I go to the next relationship and if I didn't resolve some of my personal

30:25
issues in the first one well I'm going to be left to resolve them in the second one well you know or the third one or

30:32
you know never or the fourth one or you know and um like like you're saying

30:38
ultimately there are some P some struggles that we have individually that we're going to bring into every

30:43
relationship and until we address those divorce is going to look like the appealing option because it's it's about

30:51
them right so how is it yeah the blame yep yeah and yeah I the other thing too about

30:59
divorce I've realized is that it's so much it's very easy for us to do the

31:05
Forgiveness versus permission thing you know it's easier to ask for forgiveness and permission uh on the other side of

31:11
that not being the person getting divorced but being you know on the it's so easy for me personally to offer Grace

31:18
to those who have been divorced cuz it's in the past it's like that decision is done I don't have to think about that

31:24
you know or like advis for that or not none of that all I need to do is just

31:30
walk with that person in their current reality and show Grace like we're supposed to so that becomes easy and I I

31:37
have no problem with that I don't have any problem with people divorc I we have a lot of friends who are divorced and

31:42
remarried and all that and um yeah I just see how God's grace is so real in

31:47
their life just as much as mine you know and but really it just comes down to

31:53
someone's in the middle of it and you know in the situations where it's like you know feels like divorce is the right

32:01
option here it's so hard and I don't know if this is right and I don't know if this is wrong and I don't know where

32:06
the line is to say yes that looks like something that is unhealthy and you need

32:12
to leave that you know like it never quite feels right to say that sure and I

32:19
guess I'd love to get your take on that Mark um and a little context for The

32:24
Listener which you probably already know which is Mark and Chris are some of the biggest advocates for marriage that I

32:30
know you know they're doing marriage on the Rock like every other week basically

32:36
right now they're in a like leading 50 some people or something through this program right like and you guys do this

32:42
on a regular basis and Mark as a marriage and family therapist and like

32:47
so they are some of the biggest advocates for marriage that I know and yet I also know that you know Mark

32:53
you've dealt with a lot of people going through this struggle and working through that and I just I want to know is there a line

33:01
Mark that you found or is there no line and it's

33:07
like I guess maybe to bury the lead or whatever is you mentioned walking with that person MH can you speak to that is

33:15
you know when do you get to that Tipping Point have you gotten to that Tipping Point how do you wrestle with that

33:22
personally huh that's those are those are a bunch of questions these are the polarizing hard stuff um for me

33:32
personally um as I'm going to start from the back the last question towards the

33:38
front where is that well no the first one was like where is that line for me and then the last was kind of the

33:43
Tipping Point as far as that goes um for me personally um I believe there is

33:50
always hope okay and what here here's here's

33:56
where I draw that line cuz I'm I'm blessed in some ways by the

34:02
ability to be a quote unquote professional okay so some of those lines

34:10
some of that walking through with people is a line that they

34:17
choose okay so when a couple basically says okay we're going to stop coming for

34:25
therapy okay that's a line mind that I have no choice over and that's and

34:31
that's okay it's not preferential but it is okay with me because people have

34:38
recognized okay this either to their perspective isn't helpful any longer or

34:44
we've made up our mind and we're going in a different direction and I don't have any control over that you know if

34:51
people want to continue to work with me and they're recognizing that yes this is

34:57
helping and this is and we're open to this and transformation is occurring then I'm

35:02
then I'm there I'm in so you does that make sense sometimes that line is drawn

35:09
for me by the individuals I work with but if a couple okay and here's

35:17
here's where it comes back to for me personally I believe there is always hope and hope is an anchor you know to

35:24
where there is hope for the individual who whose spouse there is hope I'm I'm

35:32
just putting it out there there is hope for that individual to be able to overcome

35:38
addiction okay now granted are we get and I think where where people get it

35:43
confused and from my perspective is Hope just means I'm going to keep

35:50
doing what I've always done and something is going to change okay that's not always what hope

35:57
looks like like hope can sometimes be no I'm going to separate from this because

36:04
it's reactive and it's unhealthy you know from for my kids somebody may get

36:10
hurt okay now when I speak of hurt I'm talking more often you know a physical

36:16
Dynamic of abuse okay and that's not to

36:21
say that that person pulling away and establishing a healthy boundary that

36:27
says no I'm not subjecting myself and I'm not subjecting our children to abuse

36:32
okay now does that mean the person that's being separated from isn't going to experience some hurt no it doesn't

36:39
they're going to they're going to experience a different hurt but that I

36:44
I'll call it pain if you will you know I believe is part of God's ability to have

36:51
a disciplinary process MH you follow me yeah that and so that's that to where

36:58
from my perspective personally I just I just am

37:03
that hopeful there there used to be a um um a theory or an operation it was a hope

37:11
focused marriage counseling you know and I just I just believe that's where my

37:18
heart is that there's hope when I'm willing to recognize that what I do and

37:23
it's not about always blaming okay I'm willing to recog recognize there's some things that I do that contribute to you

37:33
know this Dynamic and I would even say even in marriage quite often there are

37:39
things that spouses do that contribute to not that it's their fault but it is

37:46
there is this word enabling for a reason because sometimes you know I recognize

37:52
you have an addiction and I don't want you getting mad at me so I'll buy

37:58
whatever you want to keep you from getting mad at me you follow me and it and it promotes that cycle so yes there

38:06
may be a need where you have to deal with that codependency on your part and

38:11
say no in order for you to get healthy I need to go step back I need to get

38:17
myself healthy in such a way that says okay if you get mad that's okay and I'm okay

38:25
with you getting mad but if you getting mad if I can't handle or if I'm

38:31
overwhelmed or you know motivated by the fact that you might get angry therefore

38:36
I'm contributing then I'm I'm culpable MH you follow me in that that so that's

38:44
that's kind of so that so the fact that there is a

38:50
opportunity for change you know and then yes if a person I think there is a point

38:56
where if a person just continues to choose you know their addictive

39:01
lifestyle you know after we've entered into this separation then yeah I I believe you

39:08
know that becomes problematic you know is that not to say that that person but

39:14
I I have known people you know who have basically tried that for years you know

39:21
and it didn't work out and you know they've gone on to marry other people and you know that but typically once it

39:29
gets to that point people quit seeing me yeah so take off therapist hat Mark you

39:38
know and approach it from you know a personal D Dynamic of I mean I think at

39:45
some point it does become too close and we talked about that already right sure

39:50
but um yeah let's assume it's someone that you know and you love and they're asking for your Counsel on a personal

39:57
from a personal aspect as your friend as your whatever right and they're they're not walking away you

40:05
know like yeah again I just want to know Mark you want a line where's that line is there a

40:12
line is it just I guess I have an assumption of

40:17
what kind of what your thoughts are what you know so maybe I need to ask maybe I need to ask this Justin where is your

40:24
line all right here here's my thoughts yeah so I I I've had some different

40:30
situations where we've counseled people and struggle in a marriage or whatever and one of the most recent ones was a

40:35
guy that I met with for quite a while and um the thing with this situation was

40:41
there was a lot of stuff in the relationship that were because of his own Hurts Habits and Hang-Ups right and

40:48
you know he was doing celebrate cover he was working through this stuff and really came to a place of you know

40:55
victory for over these things um you know to a large degree sure to where I

41:01
looked at him and go you're a pretty normal husband now you know like and now you just have the normal fla sure but

41:08
also all the yeah yeah but also all the baggage right so that that came with the

41:14
the the previous addictions and stuff and um and resulting pains that came

41:20
with that you know um and the marriage just kept feeling um helpless like like

41:30
hopeless probably where MH the wife would only stay with him

41:35
because she didn't know why really and kept saying I don't know if I want to be with you and MH it just really felt

41:42
hopeless but and so he would come in kind of you know we would get together and he he would be very despairing mhm

41:49
often and I'm like I don't blame you man o that's hard I said there might be a

41:55
day where it's time but based on this this and this I don't think today is that day sure and it was kind of like

42:01
that was how the conversation went until we stopped meeting you know and it never

42:08
got to the point where I had to say you know where I felt like yeah it's pretty clear you know MH and that's kind of

42:15
where I'm at is like I don't know where my line is I think where you had to say what they never got to a point where

42:21
where I would advise yeah it's probably time it's it's the health Dynamic has tipped to where mhm you know you your

42:28
family it would all likely be more healthy if you if you you know divorced

42:34
or whatever MH um and this is one very specific scenario but I guess that's

42:40
kind of where where I see it is where they're it's kind of like kicking the

42:47
can down the road until you can't anymore sure you know it's kind of my perspective so is there a line not

42:54
really I think it's just just keep kicking till you can't anymore and you I don't know I like it's too hard of a

43:00
question for me yeah to to give it a line so that's kind of where I'm at yeah and that's and that's where I come back

43:06
to it's going to come down to an individual Dynamic yeah number one for me personally or professionally I'm not

43:13
going to make that choice for someone yeah because right and this this is this has happened to me more times

43:21
than and I I respect yeah it's respect I respect the fact that I have a passion

43:28
but I'm no better at this than any other professional out there and what the

43:34
reason I say that is is because I think sometimes in our professional Dynamic

43:39
and I've had this happen in my office you know a couple who's been married for

43:45
15 years you know or 20 years you know they'll come to me and say well we went

43:50
for counseling 10 years ago you know and that therapist at that time told me that

43:56
I should just go ahead and separate from it it's like okay I'm I'm not I'm not

44:02
necessarily going to make that decision for somebody let alone tell them that

44:07
you know I believe that's something that they have to wrestle with you know or am I am I willing to walk with them in that

44:14
and entertain and bring everybody together sure and yet there's that part

44:20
of me that says okay you're back to see someone now 10 years later what's going

44:29
on right now yeah what's what's the circumstantial Dynamic that creates this

44:35
stress this pressure this you know opportunity to where when we get to this

44:41
level we recognize we need help and we start thinking about separating you

44:47
follow me because realistically we've had these 10 years and it and this

44:53
happens a lot you know five years 10 years you know it's like well how how was this possible you

45:02
know that yes 10 years ago you were thinking about separating and then we've

45:07
had this window because evidently it hasn't been just terrible all along you

45:12
follow me we're at this we've we've we've come we've you know we've we're in this deep we're in this Valley moment

45:19
now yeah that we're considering and we're you know stress levels are high so that's kind of where I draw that

45:26
perspective from and then that's where I come back to okay well what what is it that keeps you in this relationship what

45:32
is it about him what is it about her that attracted you to that person and I

45:38
think so often it is about that ability to reshift you know from a negative

45:43
Focus to a positive Focus as far as well like we talk about here you know we can

45:50
look at the facets of an individual and label them okay based on those negative

45:56
facets if if you will or those in our what we do here the similar facets and so therefore they are blank but yet

46:03
there's so many other facets of an individual that we either choose not to

46:10
see or that are very similar to us and therefore they don't matter as much and

46:17
so I think you know in that process so so coming back to your question about the

46:22
line I think for me there isn't a specific line there's a general line

46:28
that is able to identify okay healthy boundaries like and and granted

46:36
boundaries boundaries aren't boundaries are are fuzzy

46:44
lines yeah yeah you follow me because you know so yeah there is a there is a

46:51
there is a crossing over and my spouse kind of gets to Define that but what

46:58
looks like crossing a line for you in your relationship is going to be different than somebody else in their

47:06
relationship and you know and so often I as as you were talking about that couple

47:13
um and here again I don't I mean I don't know either individual I just want to put that out there but I think so often

47:20
you know in that process of transformation you know resentment comes

47:26
comes into play yeah you know where you know I've I've dealt with this so long

47:33
or you know this has been going on for 12 years and now you've become a a good

47:40
husband and now what am I supposed to do with that why couldn't you have done this five years ago yeah you know that

47:48
kind of thing and being and I here again I don't know these people but you know I can understand how that kind of

47:54
resentment can come into play and yet I also recognize depending on a spiritual

48:00
relationship with God I can overcome that resentment yeah there's even resentment can Surface

48:08
once you see someone start to heal and move often yeah because it's like wait a

48:14
second you're saying I could have had this my whole life yes why where was this five years ago yeah and so then it

48:20
can just be that can be the shocking pull you out of denial on the other side

48:27
to be able like well crap it really was bad and now all of the anger that was

48:33
suppressed through you know coping mechanisms is starting to see seep out everywhere and and the other spouse is

48:39
left going but but but but I'm better like I'm doing the good stuff and it's

48:46
like well why bother at that point that person says why bother yeah and and we can see how those Cycles can be created

48:54
and it's and the the interest here's the other part of that it's um there's there is this Dynamic called

49:00
homeostasis to where when I Des when I do change quite often my system resists

49:09
me out of a desire to maintain homeostasis maintain what status quo

49:15
status quo and so yes what you're what you're describing is is part of systems

49:22
to where yeah the system will fight and the needs to be reset right that

49:28
equilibrium needs to shift the homeostasis needs to shift yes and but that's you know that's that's hard yes

49:36
and that's where both people have to actually relearn some of these psycho dynamics that have taken not taken but

49:44
have been established over time and you do this and I do this so when I'm trying

49:50
to re learn you have to relearn at the same time yeah it's so hard and the

49:55
other the phys term that comes to mind is inertia right like once something starts spinning and you stop you try and

50:02
stop the thing that started it it's like but the inertia keeps the movement going and you're fighting that you know so you

50:09
know you may have stopped the behavior that was spinning the top but the top keeps spinning and it's like wa wait a

50:15
second but I'm not doing it anymore yeah there's inertia there that's that homeostasis you're talking about where the systems already set in place and it

50:22
takes a long time for a top to stop right sure and that's where I'll run into it you know with with people it's

50:28
like okay it's been years that we've been living with this cycle dynamic and

50:34
we just want it fixed now so it should only take like five sessions and we can

50:39
you know complet it's like no you know we're not going to you know it's been

50:44
five years to establish this we're not going to stop it in five minutes type stuff and I think that can be a you know

50:50
it's expectation so I and I guess that's as I as I think about our topic of

50:55
divorce I know we we've kind of made it about boundaries but I I I want to put that I

51:02
want to offer that hope to people and as I think about

51:09
that I can think what I guess what it comes back to to me and I guess part of my passion is when I think about

51:18
it divorce tends to be very isolating and what I enjoy about the

51:26
group Dynamics well even CR but what I enjoy about the group dynamic of you

51:31
know the classes we do it's like I'm able to sit in that room with other people and hear oh my goodness you deal

51:41
with that too you'll experience that in your relationship too and from my

51:49
perspective divorce you know is that Dynamic that leads to isolation

51:56
where I can't in some ways I can't talk with you you know in a in a relationship

52:02
Dynamic so I I may talk with a few other people some of those people may just

52:09
be encouraging me to separate you know and I don't necessarily have people who

52:16
are giving me that advice that would basically say well help me understand how you're contributing to this yeah you

52:23
know and really challenging that and I think support is is really helpful

52:29
healthy support yes is very helpful in avoiding some of those pitfalls that

52:36
lead to divorce yeah and yet I think a lot of people I and I admire people who are

52:44
able to say yeah I want to get it right this time MH because I've experienced

52:49
that hurt and I see how it's affected you know my spouse I see how it's

52:55
affecting our children you know and I want to get it right this time and I I just admire people who are

53:02
able to say okay yeah that's what I did and that's how I contribute and I want

53:08
to change that in me because I realize if I could have dealt with that maybe a

53:13
while back it could have changed things for us yeah I'm sorry I didn't mean it you

53:19
had the thought there in that process no I just I'm just I can't help but keep

53:26
thinking about that person who there's always hope right I agree with you on

53:32
that but there's also that person who's just dead tired and yep due to the

53:39
dysfunction in their relationship yep they are wiped out and you say all you

53:44
have to do is get back up and run a mile it's no you don't understand no I got

53:50
you you know and I I just have my mind keeps coming back to that and I'm I

53:55
guess just you know I just feel that compassion for that person is like it's

54:01
going to be work it's going to be hard you're going to have to learn some new skills you're going to you know

54:07
basically you have to go to boot camp you know and it's like I just feel like I got done running a marathon with a

54:14
broken leg in the rain you know just beat up beat down and I don't when you

54:21
say more work it makes me want to just give up yeah you know and that's that's

54:28
the part that's so hard yeah I mean I don't I don't know

54:35
how you but but I I also believe there's always hope and I believe that the Holy Spirit can Infuse them with what they

54:42
need and I believe that we people around them can be the ones to help them to

54:47
stand up and kind of put our arm around their shoulder help them limp across the Finish Line right I believe that there's

54:53
opportunities there but I just want to recognize that it's not as simple as well you just got to do some work and

54:59
you got to do some changes and part of this is your fault and I agree and and

55:05
and I appreciate what you share um because I want to I want to

55:10
recognize there's a tremendous difference between hope and optimism

55:17
MH hope and expectation yeah you follow me and um I apologize uh T the the the

55:26
the the part that's coming to mind is it it wasn't seven habits I think it was it

55:32
seven no it's the red I can picture the book it's got a red cover on it highly Hab of

55:41
successful people Seven Habits of Highly affected no that's stepen cubby yeah what's the the Collins is his name oh

55:48
either way it was it was one of those business books yeah the the bus one nope

55:54
not the bus one but either way it talked about and this this is what it's it's it's yeah the Collins book that's read

56:02
guys yeah that one um he talks about uh

56:07
a p camp and the

56:13
individual in the camp the the kind of the leader that survived that camp um

56:21
basically said you know forget about optimism he says cuz here's what happens

56:28
he says when you have the idea you know you can maintain optimism for about so

56:34
long but when Christmas comes if your Hope was that when Christmas comes we'll

56:41
be out he said at that point when Christmas comes I can uh you're you will

56:47
be defeated and therefore you will die yeah your optim optimism swings to the

56:52
other side yes because I missed my expect expectation was that it would happen by here you follow me or you know

57:01
and and I I apologize because it's so vivid in my mind good to Great yes yes

57:07
who wrote good to great well I think colins because that's what yes it's good to great I'll look it up it's good to

57:13
Great yes thank you I appreciate that now now now there's other people that are you're welcome

57:20
Linda but yes good to great in that process and um you could it's in that

57:25
book and like you say I know it's highlighted in my definitely R yeah yeah I'm visual

57:32
that's that's what you know but Jim Collins yes thank well done between the two of us we we know that book I don't

57:38
think I've read it but I remember when the church staff was I will I will uh send that to you to be able to put it in

57:45
if you would like to as a as a link you know a page and copy type thing but but it was just really good and I think so

57:52
often we can get hope mixed up with optimism and when those times come it's easy to

57:59
lose my optimism and then I become bitter yeah I think for me I just want

58:05
to convey some compassion there it's it's the main thing to just I agree with you if that this is your struggle man I

58:12
feel I feel you and it like I don't it's just I have no desire to just say well

58:17
you just got to yeah and I by all means I agree with you this is not a polarizing issue where

58:24
we're concerned yeah because I want to recognize yeah it's not getting up and

58:29
running a mile and and sometimes even just the next step can seem like a

58:35
marathon yeah I think about it very similar to how we've talked about depression mhm because you're just

58:42
telling me to to move on and just do this just do this and everything will change and yet you don't understand yeah

58:50
and I think that's where it comes back to that ability to say okay yeah I

58:55
respect that's where you are and I'm willing to be your friend right here

59:00
right now in the midst of this yep yep yeah and you know back to this specific

59:07
person in this specific TR struggle too that's one of the things one of the

59:14
primary Tools in recovery for how do I get through today like how do I get through this current wave of uh desire

59:22
craving like to not go back to that substance or that that solution and we

59:28
always say it's one day at a time one moment at a time right and 10 minutes at a time exactly so if that means you know

59:36
stay there on the ground take another breath sure just get through this moment we're not asking you to get up right now

59:42
yeah you know but you know as well as anyone else out here like eventually you got to get up yeah one way or another

59:47
but right now take that Mo you know get through this moment yeah you know and I

59:52
think hope is better better when the future's left in the

59:59
hands of a higher power sure and we take on the present moment and that's where

1:00:05
the Hope lives the Bible says we have enough Grace Just For Today sure he's

1:00:12
given us a very specific dose for today sure and sometimes we borrow we take

1:00:19
take from to we try attempt to take from tomorrow's dose or we attempt to use today's dose to to work through tomor

1:00:26
tomorrow's problems and guess what the the ration doesn't quite hold up in that scenario sure right and I think that's

1:00:34
the thing when they're in that sit because even if you're heading towards divorce you know even if that's the the

1:00:40
quote unquote solution to the issue you're not going to make that decision this minute most often right like right

1:00:48
um is you got to you know I mean obviously there's there's always a moment where then that sometimes yeah when we entertain that option yeah start

1:00:56
thinking that way but yes I'm hearing where you're coming from yeah I guess I'm just saying it is about the moments

1:01:02
it is especially in traumatic situations or in the case of recovery and addiction

1:01:08
and in those like those moments that are pulling at you so hard can you get

1:01:13
through this minute right to then report on it you know okay you did it can you

1:01:18
get through the next minute can you get like you said the next 10 minutes can we get to the end of the day sure you know

1:01:25
and that that's what that's about when you're just exhausted you have nothing else you know to do is but can you can

1:01:32
you can you sit there yeah can you rest can you get up and walk a few steps and sit back down you know that that that

1:01:40
would be my I guess take on someone who's in that position is like well let's rest a

1:01:47
little bit first before we yeah you know run the marathon out of this whichever

1:01:52
direction you go it's going to be a marathon like that's the thing to understand about divorce is often it's

1:01:59
perceived as the easy way out and you can interview literally anybody who's been divorced and they will tell you

1:02:05
that was not an easy way out yeah you know I hear you because it's hard and it

1:02:11
and I and as you're sharing like you say I want to offer compassion and I think at times you know so often the

1:02:18
individual that is just exhausted um has found themselves in the

1:02:24
process of doing it all you follow me in that they and they are exhausted and my first my first

1:02:33
thing to them would be okay step back a little bit you don't have to do it all

1:02:39
if you're doing it all in this relationship you have to pull back even

1:02:44
in some ways just to make room for someone else to help you have to make a vacuum in some ways for that other

1:02:51
individual to step in and until you do they're not going to there's no

1:02:58
need so I'm with you in that process of being able to say yeah it's okay to pull

1:03:05
back so yeah I think I appreciate you bringing up the topic this morning

1:03:10
Justin and like you say I'm not I don't necessarily feel that uh we uh dealt

1:03:15
well with just that topic of divorce but well I I I appreciate the ability to talk about it in a polarizing way that

1:03:23
hopefully offers encouragement MH for you know couples who are wrestling and I

1:03:29
with that and I also hope that basically we've been able to convey a compassion

1:03:36
for people who have experienced divorce and the ability to say okay yeah what

1:03:43
you know going forward what does it look like for me to be a healthy individual

1:03:48
in the next time yeah yeah I think compassion like you

1:03:53
said and understanding that man I I just yeah I wish that they didn't have

1:04:00
to come out on the other side and then deal with not only the struggles of a new life but also defending that choice

1:04:06
and it's like but that's why it's a personal choice like you said ultimately it's going to come down to your

1:04:12
individual choice and the reality of you know what you're going to have to live with after that what whatever that looks

1:04:18
like right including the did I do the wrong thing and defending it and all that it's like but at the same time

1:04:24
there's no condemnation for those are in Christ Jesus and yes let's move forward and use what's behind us to propel us

1:04:31
forward and yeah know and that's pretty much how I see it and that's how I see

1:04:36
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