Mark:

How are you, sir?

Justin:

I’m good, how are you?

Mark:

I’m well, thank you.

Justin:

Are you feeling excellent?

Mark:

Uh huh Huh. I’m I’m not necessarily feel I’m feeling very well. I’m I’m good. Yes.

Justin:

Very well Very good, but not excellent.

Mark:

I’m not sure uh yeah. Yeah excellence is one of those words that I’ll be honest. Excellence is one of those words that I struggle with.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, is that because well, why is that, Mark? Give me give me some reasons.

Mark:

Well, I think of excellence in some ways like perfection.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That there is this

Justin:

synonymous.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. That there is this point that I’ve could could reach. That I have arrived, if you will. And I think there’s something to be said for doing things with excellence. And yet, like perfection, it’s like It can make what is what is good seem insufficient Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Justin:

Yeah, so it’s interesting what you just said in the sense that you kinda feel like excellence is something you can achieve. That’s kinda what you’re saying.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um I feel like my struggle is kind of the opposite in the sense that excellence feels like a sliding scale to where it is unachievable.

Mark:

Oh okay.

Justin:

And

Mark:

like once you r reach a mark or a point, it moves.

Justin:

It moves, yeah.

Mark:

I gotcha. The bar just got higher.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I achieved excellence. What I thought was excellence. Now excellence has gone even higher.

Justin:

It’s like that carrot on a stick.

Mark:

Yeah. Right? Yeah, bring it back to the stick. I understand.

Justin:

Always the stick, Mark. This time there’s a carrot too. So

Mark:

I gotcha. Yeah. But

Justin:

you know the carrot on a stick stuck to your back, right? Or whatever. So it’s like always dangling in front of you and you’re Yeah. You’re chasing after it and then you think you got it and then it’s nope, it’s the same distance away and you gotta take a break for a minute. That’s kinda how I

Mark:

See we’re we’re already looking at this one word from a from polarizing.

Justin:

And yet we’re both in the same place of like, yeah, it’s a uh a word to struggle with or

Mark:

sure a trick

Justin:

triggering word, maybe.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which I here’s why I think that’s a little bit ironic. Um well I I won’t speak for myself. Um, I’ll let you tell I’m I’m excellent. But I was gonna say Mark is definitely a guy who pursues excellence in the things that he does. I I can attest to that from my perspective. Um he’s not uh he’s not gonna sit on his haunches and and saying, Well, good enough or whatever and you know We we gotta talk about that too because

Mark:

I’ll let you share your point of view. Yeah, because

Justin:

sometimes that decision to do that is actually excellent because it’s about you know, m uh priorities. But again, it really comes down to the definition of excellence. But I think of you as somebody who cares about your work and wants to do the best you can do. which each each thing that you’re tackling, which I think is excellence. Well

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Go ahead.

Mark:

Yeah, I d I you know Thank you.

Justin:

Good job. I can see your head getting bigger.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

No, no, that that was just a If you haven’t listened to the Pride episode, Mark doesn’t take compliments well. So his thank you is actually a very huge achievement. I would consider that excellent Excellent growth there, Martin.

Mark:

Thank you. But moving right along in that in that process, I think, you know Excellence is gonna be one of those things that is gonna be viewed. You’re gonna And here again, you shared how you see me. I share, you know, I would see you in that dynamic as well, you know, based on what you do for you know, your job and, you know, I see you as the the IT guy, you know, and I think I think of perfection even more so because in that context if the if the scripting, the the stuff you do, you know, has one error in it, it’s not gonna work. So, you know, you I respect I respect

Justin:

I wish that was true.

Mark:

Well, that’s how I see it, you know. And from a programming perspective

Justin:

Yeah. I’ll let you finish.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s how I see it, and I extend that to you as well. And yet I also realize that everybody is gonna bring a different perspective of what excellence is and some of that is going to be you know related to related occupationally I think that’s where we’re gonna, you know, tend to view a desire for excellence. And I think, you know, some things that might be More important like my family relationship with God, I might not necessarily put the same effort into that I do what other people might see. You you you follow me? It’s it’s it’s probably far easier to be excellent or t strive for excellence in the areas of occupation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I think we are continually, or there is that that standard.

Justin:

Measurement.

Mark:

That measurement, yes. That basically says, okay, this is what we’re looking for. And I think that’s simpler to be able to achieve. And yet at the same time, that’s not always, you know, where our best energy I don’t know. Should. You know, it’s not always where our best energy that’s not always our best priority.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

In that where my energy goes. And I and I think for me, excellence and energy kind of relate to one another. Because I think it takes a certain amount of energy to achieve excellence. And sometimes the difference is, well, I just don’t want to put that effort, that much effort into it.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, y is you were talking about um occupation and measurement. It kind of made me think about how someone or often and pro people like me in particular who care about approval, we optimize for approval. So we’re gonna you know, excellence, we’re gonna pursue, you know, and this is something I have tried to mature in, right? But like work towards opt you know, demonstrating excellence where the measurement happens and not so much where it doesn’t, which is why Um I c you know, I I would get my priorities out of whack sometimes and optimize for that approval instead of Like for instance, my family is to me my most important job, but sometimes I forget that, you know to the degree where I’m not I’m optimizing for the approval of others to put my excellence somewhere where you know.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that’s go ahead.

Mark:

In a in a place where we desire affirmation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s where we ‘re going to be able to do that. Or

Justin:

we can see the measurement numbers. And it’s it’s much clearer. Right. So it’s like, okay, today I gotta win.

Mark:

It’s easy to quantify.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. I think mm, yeah, it’s a good one. Quantif quantification and excellence. You know, I think often can go hand in hand.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

In that pursuit. Yeah. Sure. That’s good.

Mark:

And I think there’s that point where, you know, personality will come into play. I think, you know, uh when you when you were sharing your um your aspect of approval, you know, your desire for approval. I think of, you know, as we’ve talked about before, the love styles, you know, the pleaser. You know, that person that just wants to be able to get it right, do it right, you know, so that they are viewed as pleasing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think it I think at times it is more difficult for that personality style. you know, to wrestle with excellence because I think it is that m that moving carrot type thing. You know, it’s like, well, I did it the way you wanted it done, you know, but it still wasn’t good enough.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and the moving carrot thing a lot of times is from others, but also a lot of times it’s from ourselves where It feels like, oh, if I achieve that, it must not be hard enough. Almost like so you so you so that carrot continues to sta stay stuck to your own back. So every time you move you kinda move your own goal.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, ’cause it’s like, well, that wasn’t good enough or whatever. I think ’cause I I do think some people are self driven in that way to where that becomes a problem.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where they’re it’s never good enough. And actually, you know It’s a stick in the sense that it it can be problematic in someone’s life, but it can also drive them to excellence where they’re truly outstanding in their field, whatever that is. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So help me understand from your perspective the difference between excellence and perfection.

Justin:

Yeah. So that’s a good one. So because like you said, they’re kind of become synonymous where I think the reason they feel connected is because perfection is without flaw and excellence is a moving target. So in order to feel like you achieved excellence, you have to be able to say there can be nothing better, right? Therefore you know, excellence, that moving care in front of you hits a wall of perfection and you can catch it now.

Mark:

Wow, okay.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah, no, I I see it differently. I see I I see excellence as a ninety five, ninety-eight. Whereas perfection is the 100.

Justin:

Well, no, I agree with you.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

I guess what I’m saying is

Mark:

I think we journey through excellence to get to perfection.

Justin:

Yeah, I agree with that. I guess yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Mark:

No, it’s okay. But I think but I there again We’re not gonna always achieve perfection.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so uh uh that’s that’s the difficult part and where Where is it to the point of and I think this is part of the wrestling for many people as well. You know, it’s like, well, if I can’t get there uh or if I see myself as being unable to get there, um, there’s no use bothering. Mm-hmm. So I won’t even necessarily try at times. I won’t necessarily put the effort into learn because if I can’t do it at that level, then there’s no use even Trying.

Justin:

That reminds me of Frisbee last night, Mark.

Mark:

How so, Justin?

Justin:

So Mark and I played Ultimate Frisbee last night. It was very fun. Yes indeed. And one of our good friends, Will, was on my team and he was throwing in such a way last night to where it was If okay, so what often happens is someone will really believe in you. And I’ll throw the frisbee way too far.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you look at it and you go, Nope. Right?

Mark:

Sure. You make that instant judgment.

Justin:

Right, right. And it’s just like kinda like what you’re saying. Well I can’t reach there so I’m just gonna stop here.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Like not even I’m not even gonna try to

Mark:

already made up your mind.

Justin:

Right. Or maybe I’m gonna, you know, give s like a half hearted effort and be like, well it was your fault. See how I tried. Kind of I don’t know. Sometimes you can do the opposite where you don’t believe enough and so y you know, it’s like I can’t shoot for excellence because I’m not given the opportunities, right? But I think the perfect throw Is the one that I have to bust my butt to get to that frisbee.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

The chances that the person guarding me is gonna get to it before me is slim because it’s It’s out there in front of both of us. And I’m closer, you know, I’m I’m on my excellence comes into play is like It drives you to go beyond maybe what you think you can do, just beyond that limit, and it causes you to go further than you would. Um and I th I feel like that can be a good motivation for excellence. You know. But I do think you’re right. Sometimes we put those standards so far out in front of a person to where they either don’t try or they give it, you know, kind of half hearted effort and go, Well, look at how look how far I came and look how far you threw it. Like clearly you’re the one at fault here, you know what I mean?

Mark:

No, I hear ya

Justin:

I don’t know. It just made me think about it.

Mark:

It made me think of the way as you were describing that, it makes me think about good goals.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I think, you know, goals do tend to help motivate us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But l too lofty of a goal Is debilitating as well because it’s like now discouraging, yes, that’s a better word. But being able to recognize, okay, yeah. And I think it’s interesting because When I think of, you know, um excellence, perfection, typically for me, certain people come to mind. You know, people that I r respect. in their, you know, occupational world or, you know and and and granted, sometimes when I think of, you know, perfection I think of, you know, people will will quite often use, you know, the terminology O C D, you know, that kind of thing. And I It’s it’s interesting as we’re having this topic how many different people will tend to come to mind in that process that I might respect from an excellence and then others that I think you know, from my perspective, get caught up in, you know, trying to be perfec perfectionistic, having certain things just certain ways. And it’s like that effort from my perspective can seem futile as in a striving for perfection to where nothing can be Out of order.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And I it’s just uh yeah, it’s funny how this this topic is just bringing a you know a a multitude of thoughts to mind. Yeah, in that process. People, circumstances.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it and it’s it’s interesting how it is, you know I and I I think uh what I another part that comes to mind is basically, you know, the CR dynamic. Of being able to recognize, no, we’re just he because I think I s so often excellence or perfection can be masks we wear.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? In that in that desire to do the things.

Justin:

In an attempt to be bulletproof.

Mark:

Yes. Yeah. Whereas, you know CR that that safe place, you come as you are, you’re there, you know, you don’t have to have that armor on, if you will, that says, okay, I’m bulletproof and I’ll show up and I’ll do my duty and then I go home recognizing Nah, I’m not that person. Or I may not be that person that everybody thinks I am.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

I think that’s a that’s a a real struggle at times. And I, you know, that’s where Because you know, it’s not that people won’t have well just like you shared about myself even, you know, it’s like, eh, not sure I fully agree with that. And yet that’s where you come from. That’s that’s your perspective And in that you can say, hm I’m wondering, you know, if other people or to the degree other people see you as that way can can make it seem like Okay, they just don’t know me like I know myself, even though that includes my perspective of myself. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that becomes the wrestling as well. Part of the wrestling. Does that make sense?

Justin:

It does make sense. Okay. It makes a lot of sense. I think again, excellence is such a squishy topic, right? So it’s like One one person’s perception of excellence could be another ver person’s perception of incompetence or or l missing the mark or whatever. So That’s another thing where uh a lot of high performers, someone will say, Yeah, I’ve never seen someone be better at that than you or you know, they’ll get a lot and they’ll just be like, You have no idea. This is terrible. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that’s like Like a tiger woods. Like no one’s gonna compliment him because he’s he’s inner critic is already saying no, you don’t understand. It’s not it’s not anything like you thought it. Like you’re wrong. Yeah what I mean? And so I feel like that’s that’s one thing about excellences it’s a squishy topic too and um I also say like excellence, the pursuit of excellence can become uh debil debilitating. I like what you said to the degree well, I don’t know if debilitating isn’t it isn’t what I’m going for. It it can become uh a labyrinth. So you’re never gonna reach the the exit because you’re lost in this labyrinth of excellence and you’re y you know, you’re you’re I gotta fix that imperfection and it’s like you look to your lap, Oh, I gotta fix that imperfection and so I I also think, you know, because I th I I kinda hear what you’re saying about even your own perception of yourself, Mark. And the fact is you get stuff done. Which that doesn’t come with a perfectionist. Does that make sense? Like being able to to churn through and get things done and you know every day you can see you’re moving towards completion, right? Okay. I feel like a perfectionist, they get lost in that labyrinth to the degree where you know finishing maybe isn’t on the radar.

Mark:

I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin:

You get what I’m saying?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So again it depends on what you view excellence as as well because I think there are some trade-offs in our everyday work that says Am I gonna perfect this or am I gonna get it done?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Oh

Mark:

yeah, yeah. That’s part of your quantification, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think excellence looks like getting things done, right? In in the real world, that’s what excellence looks like. But again, I think someone who’s a perfectionist sees excellence as mess yeah, perfection, right? Like in I don’t know.

Mark:

Tiger Woods, the name, excuse me, the name Tiger Woods. As you were as you were describing or we were talking about that, Robin Williams comes to mind for me.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, someone, and I and I think that’s it it might be the combination of someone who I perceived as being excellent in their craft. And yet I think maybe he got at times lost in that labyrinth of not being able to see his worth in the other things he was. And here again, I’m not speaking of him. I just I I value, you know, who Robin Williams was as an actor. And I and to me it was a sad thing that he, you know, ended up taking his life. And I think it was that pursuit, if you will, and that ability to have a level of okay, yeah, I do this I do this one thing well and that doesn’t mean that I’m a terrible, awful person in these other things. And I and I think y as you were describing that dynamic that came to mind for me. And I think at times, and you can speak to this maybe as well. When we have such lofty dynamics, then the the labyrinth that you refer to can lead to that depression, disappointment. You know, it’s like So I I think that’s another I I’m just thinking about m that excellence and how it can be

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

difficult.

Justin:

I really like what you’re saying about excellence being that ninety-eight You know, percent kind of thing, and I think that’s really something we should all embrace. But again, I I think it gets lost and we translate it for perfection or Or sometimes we think of excellence as the hundred and one, like the extra credit, right? And it’s like went above and beyond. That’s excellent. And So that can be uh getting lost in that pursuit of well, I have to go ab above what’s expected in order to be excellent, which is uh I think can become problematic. But when you think about you know, that pursuit of excellence and people who are at the top, Robin Williams being an example.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, the stamina it’s required to stay at the top is Un unbelievable. Like I don’t people who aren’t at the top cannot understand the amount of effort it takes to stay at the you know, king of the hill, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I think Someone I I can think of Tiger Woods again, like how long he’s been on the top and how long he’s been clawing to stay at the top. Like he gets in this major accident, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

breaks things, whatever, and now he’s clawed his way back to the top. And you gotta imagine it’s just so draining. And then you can also see how It takes everything in him to stay there to the degree where he doesn’t have much left to maintain his family in some of those dynamics where he’s had issues relationally, some pretty significant ones that um tend to get kind of forgotten about as he claws back to the top of excellence in in the world of golf. Um, but I think just the amount uh going back to your term energy, the amount of energy it takes to stay at the top of a thing is more you know, so much more than the amount of energy it takes to stay two two rungs below that ladder.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And it’s like, well they’re not that far, so it can’t be that m no, you don’t understand. Every rung closer to the top Right, is gonna be that exponentially harder.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so I think of Robin Williams too, like your example, like you’re only gonna no matter how good you are. Tiger Woods, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Michael Jordan. Robin Williams. You cannot stay at the top forever. You can’t. Because you’re gonna die for one. Right? Like there’s a there’s a natural limit to your your abilities. But the uh off chance like y I should say, if you started at the top young, the chances that you’re gonna stay at the top the rest of your life are pretty slim. So what do you do once you slip down those rungs? Is that who you were? You know, and I feel like in a lot of cases you start to see how lives crumble when that’s no longer something they can claim, you know And Robin Williams, I think, might be an example of that. I know he also had some uh like mental health sicknesses. Sure. Like Louis body dementia or something. Was that him?

Mark:

Not that I recall, but I’m not saying I’m I yeah.

Justin:

I think

Mark:

you definitely had some mental health dynamics in play. You brought it up, you’re gonna have to check it.

Justin:

You want me to look right now? I will.

Mark:

No, no. You can you can I I mean I’m okay either way.

Justin:

I don’t I don’t wanna say that if it’s not true But I I think that ‘s

Mark:

we’re saying we’re not sure that it might be him.

Justin:

Yeah. But anyway. Yeah, in his in his life I can see how staying at the top became, you know, impossible and he kind of slipped down and and then that became something that was Hard to not see on a daily basis. I’m no longer up there and I want to want to be maybe. Um where again you see someone like Tiger Woods was like Probably to be healthy he could have slipped from the top by now. You know, and maybe a few times he has, but he just always has to climb right back up there to the degree where I don’t know, it kind of just like I admire it, but I also feel like maybe not the healthiest individual.

Mark:

So let’s let’s bring this back to a personal dynamic then.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Do you, other than the ultimate frisbee, do you have an area that you might be striving to put too much energy in excellence. Do you have an area where you might be maybe you’re operating at the ninety-eight, but maybe that needs to adjust some.

Justin:

Yeah, I think

Mark:

I’m not a I d I think it it that reminds me of like um Andy Stanley choosing to cheat.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

That’s kind of that that process that comes to mind.

Justin:

Yeah. And just uh

Mark:

go ahead and clarify that. Yeah.

Justin:

Catch the uh Linda up. Our listener Linda. Uh, if you don’t know. Uh choosing to cheat, I think it was a book, but it’s definitely a sermon by Andy Stanley is this idea that if you’re gonna cheat somewhere, you cheat the ministry, not your family. That was that was like one of his primary cr you know, like points is a lot of points.

Mark:

Right. In the prioritizing we do.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And he was saying a lot of ministers fail in the sense that they prioritize the ministry over their family and therefore lose their family. Or l you know, or whatever, right? And uh so h his concept of choosing to cheap is really about just priorities and learning how to prioritize the right things over the things that feel like the right thing. Sure. Right Uh

Mark:

and that’s where my question to you comes from is like is there an area that you know you might be in your personal dynamic putting more energy than you need to in that pursuit of excellence for someone else?

Justin:

Yeah, so this yes, I’ve struggled with that my whole life. Mm. The thing is I have a natural uh limit. that kicks in called depression.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

So what I find is when I pursue excellence and when I say excellence I mean the perfection version of excellence.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, in any one area, especi especially when it comes to trying to maintain or achieve approval, uh it’s not sustainable for me.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

It it becomes a task masker. It it it contributes greatly towards depression and when when those things start kicking in, thankfully, uh, I’ve learned over my life that that’s a natural limit or that’s like a natural sign that, hey, maybe this thing you need to stop or scale way back or whatever. And so I’ve had periods of that in my life. I think um I think I’ve talked about this before, but for a while I was leading the celebrate recovery ministry at our church and recognized um that pursuit of excellence there, um, took more out of me than I eventually had. Right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And other things started to take more of me, both my family and work. to the degree that what I had left to give at CR never felt like enough. It always felt like it was I was falling short. And y you know th I’m not saying that’s even true. I’m just saying my perception of it and my struggle with this word excellence and yeah you know it’s like you can always look around kind of that labyrinth idea. You can always look around and say, oh look that’s not excellent and therefore I need to work harder. Um and sometimes you look at that and you go Whew, I just don’t have the energy today. So not today but tomorrow. And that not today but tomorrow I really need to fix that can drain you of energy over the course of time, right? Like um whether you’re doing the thing or you’re not doing the thing, the fact that you feel like you should be doing the thing can really be draining. Um and so for me it became Yeah, just a daunting daunting thing that g I was never gonna get to excellent because there’s too many too many uh cracks where thing you know, excellence was leaking out.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

I no longer could had this idea that I could reach excellence. It was more like we’re losing excellen I’m getting further from excellence because of these cracks leaking and again, very much a perception thing and a r a subjective thing Um, ’cause I think I would hope you could look at the ministry outside and say, No, it was great. It’s doing great. You know, like it’s healthy, it’s whatever. it it would had more to do with m me and my view. So that’s kind of uh long winded long winded answer. I also wanted to talk about uh code and programming because you did mention Um I mean your idea is like it’s perfection or not. It’s one or it’s zero. It’s it’s working or it’s not. I gotcha. I would say it’s more like building a house.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right? Like you can build a house a hundred thousand ways, right? And it by the when it’s up and constructed and you drive by, it can look That’s done. That’s complete. It looks good. It is excellent. Right? Okay. And you would know as a builder, like, just because something looks done and complete and perfect from the outside doesn’t mean it works correctly or it’s gonna stand the test of time. Or you know, you you walk in the front door and it like blocks the kitchen. Like you can’t get to the kitchen or whatever. You know, it’s like weird choices where you’re like, ah It worked in this one case.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, you walk in the front door and yeah, the front door works, you can get in. But then you realize, well, what if someone’s in that room, you just they can’t get out now? Yeah. Whatever. You know what I mean? Like some of those things that require experience and design and you know things like that um start to break down over time or or in certain uses that weren’t considered in the beginning. Sure. Or Something can be under engineered and start to fall apart apart over a little bit of use, right? Or something can be overengineered to where it’s like Hey, we want to replace this hardwood floor with s or l we wanna replace this carpet with hardwood or whatever. And you start to try and pull the carpet up and it’s got a cajillion staples or those cases where something is over nailed or whatever. Right? Code is very much like that in all those ways. Hmm. Where yes, you can get it to where it’s working, but that doesn’t mean it won’t break When this person does that while you’re doing this, right? Or doesn’t mean it won’t break after repeated use or let’s say it worked for two people coming in the door, but when you got twenty two people coming through the door, all of a sudden it breaks because it’s you know what I mean?

Mark:

Sure, I hear you there.

Justin:

So it’s it’s very much like I would say building a house in that sense. And perfection in that world can look like Overbuilding.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right? Sure. And that’s one thing I struggle with sometimes is like that pursuit of perfection of like this will be built perfectly. But it comes at the expense of it being built. Right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And you go around and around, you rebuild things and you go, No, that’s not s you know, that doesn’t s square enough with this other door jam. I’m gonna take take them all down and start over.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And so you can kind of get lost in that reprogramming things, refactoring is what we call it. You know

Mark:

you can get stuck in that loop of refactoring.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. And there’s there’s been many times in my career where I just get lost in that. And yet, um There’s this healthy balance. There really is about pursuing excellence but also being willing to say, but it’s done and it’s working and I believe it’s done well. You know, that ninety-eight percent to where you’re actually getting things done moving forward. Um but that it can be hard.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

How about you?

Mark:

How about me

Justin:

where you potentially What was the question? Is that like struggle with

Mark:

Excellence?

Justin:

Excellence, or it’s caused you to push too far or something. Sure.

Mark:

I think I think my my personal area would tend to be, you know, work or even even I know you y you’ll use the word performance. Um But that aspect of getting things done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I at times that will be, you know, I can admit. And I think Uh I think it can be cyclical as far as, you know, based on my other relationships, you know, like my relationship to Chris or the kids or that kind of thing. Because I think those relationships are the ones like like where you’re sharing that aspect of energy helps you recognize when your excellence is out of priority, mine is my family or, you know, the relationships that I have. To the point of, you know, if I’m not doing what I said I would do with them And, you know, because for me I think even even as the as different as male and female, I think, you know, we can tend to I can tend to You know, put my excellence towards work because I see that as being a provider for my family type thing.

Justin:

Yeah But

Mark:

I also realize there are times when I could pull back in that area to be more available for Chris and the kids type stuff. You know, and I think that’s the that’s the part And I think there are times when it is more cyclical, you know, and in those in those areas at those times of our, you know, where where Chris and I are related, you know, when when maybe when she’s off school you know, and she has more time available, you know, it seems like I’m just going away and working all the time more so. And that and that’s a that’s a cyclical dynamic, you know, it’s not that her opinion isn’t important or you know that I’m completely out, but being able to accept that influence from other people to be able to say, Okay, yeah, is it is it that I’m gone that much more or is it that we’re you know, one of us doesn’t have the same um things that were, you know, kind of same diversions, if you will. That kind of thing. To where I think that can play into it for me personally is being able to say, okay, yeah, I am able to recognize I’m putting too much energy towards this. And then we’re also able to have that conversation that says, okay, is this typically the routine energy? And is it the fact that there’s something else going on that tends to that’s tending to view this dynamic differently. You know, and I and I think that’s the that’s the where the that’s the difficult part of excellence based on two different standpoints.

Justin:

Yeah. Well, ’cause I mean you kinda you know, hit on a very important point, which is needs change, seasons shift again. What looked like excellence in one season may not look like excellence in another, and yet our only measuring stick is our past. successes and and achievements a lot of time I shouldn’t say only I mean it can become that way to where I’m not as I’m not getting as much done as I was previously And that’s our only measuring stick instead of recognizing yes, but I’m doing also increasing my energy over here.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And that matters. So this is an important Deduction in excellence in this area because it I’ve moved it over to this other area. And if we’re short sighted

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

You know, we can we can not see that connection and and it can cause problems one way or another. Whether we we go we s we step away from the thing we should be diverting energy to, or we just get down on ourself and beat ourselves up because we’re not producing over in this other area like we used to.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, it can be detrimental if we’re not able to step back and see those connections and and do it intentionally. Sure.

Mark:

And that’s the thing too that I’m referring to. It’s like, and I don’t mean to make it seem as if, you know, my work’s always the most important, but yet I’m also I’m learning to understand that there’s a value in being able to take advantage, well, a healthy awareness of those cycles to be able to say, okay, yeah. during this time when there might be more time for Chris in a schedule, I can pull back some to be more available because there is gonna time be a a coming season where we’re both kind of consumed with the, you know, occupational dynamics as they restart. And I, you know, um I think part of excellence, if you will, is being able to take those seasons into consideration. To know, you know, kind of the season to be able to say, okay, this is our time to you know, this is our time to reap and this is our time to sow. Yeah. You know, type dynamic. Because I think so often and I think Huh. This is a uh I’m a I’m not trying to shift in a different direction, but it it may sound that way for a moment, but let me bring back. Um Is

Justin:

Frisbee again?

Mark:

No, definitely not. I think I think so often we are very as as individuals we are very unaware of how many cycles are operating all the time. In other words, we’ve talked about, you know, creation and you know, but I think I just think and I think in our mechanized world you know, there’s there’s typically a focus on being able to purchase something to do that job and we don’t and at times we ignore many of the cycles that I think are designed into the creation, if you will. And I think for me, growing in awareness of the cycles and how to Not benefit, but yeah, ultimately that awareness allows me to see that cycle and be able to adjust accordingly Because if I’m not aware of the cycle, I just continue to do the same thing because I’ve always done it that way.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

In this mechanized way. This is how you do it. Boom. And I think there is a a part of excellence that’s complete that’s aware of the cycles and the changes and because I mean I’m I guess it’s just uh that’s a passion for me that you know being able to identify like life cycle stages and all the things that happen with that because like you said There’s gonna come a day when we’re we’re gonna die. So how am I living my life now in such a way to be able to make that transition? and do it well to where I’m training or bringing up other people in the things that I know how to do in such a way that promotes that cycle living that says, okay, when and granted, there again, culture has changed to where We don’t necessarily have that transgenerational handing down of some information, but I think that is a that is a helpful part of living in excellence is when I can take that that sage um wisdom, if you will, that says, well, you know, have you thought about it this way?

Justin:

Should we mention the fact that we’re I’m

Mark:

I’m okay with that.

Justin:

We’re uh picking up on this conversation about excellence. Right as Mark was about to say some amazing stuff, the recording stopped in true excellent form.

Mark:

We are exposing our excellence, our level of excellence.

Justin:

That’s right. So you were saying

Mark:

Yes. I was talking about the life cycle stages and how having the benefit of seeing oh, you know That sage wisdom that comes from someone who has seen the cycles before, I think adds to our ability to live in excellence. Because if I’m just living my life in a mechanical way that does the same thing over and over again, and I’m not accepting influence from other people. Then I’m missing out.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s it’s kinda it’s even actually become a little more personal for me since that dynamic. you know, the since that day we recorded because since then uh my mom has passed away.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And what what it I’m I’m recognizing I’ve lost that opportunity you know, in some ways, but it’s interesting to me because as I as I remember the conversation we were having, you know, this process of excellence. I’ve thought about it in this context of Psalms 31, where I think the excuse me, not Psalms 31, Proverbs 31. Where we think of the Proverbs 31 woman. Okay? And that in and of itself has become a representation of what excellence is. You know, because here’s this woman out here, you know, that everyone should you know, follow after. You know, that’s the that’s the goal, if you will. And I’m thinking and as I’m thinking about that, rethinking that, you know, the actual Um proverb talks out, you know, who can find an excellent starts out who can find an excellent wife? Okay. Well the reality of it is I think that excellence comes with time.

Justin:

Mm.

Mark:

The ability to see ’cause ’cause I believe that that proverb was written about a specific woman at a specific time. That that writer actually knew a person.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think so often we can lose sight of that in the excellence. This is what you have to do. In comparison to that Proverbs thirty one person. I’m not measuring up. But yeah, if I’m able to say, if I’m able to have people coming into my life that are able to identify that and see, well , Are you doing this? Because I think that’s what it comes down to. Who can find excellence? I don’t think is something we attain at the snap of a finger. We can’t just become that. I think of I think of when I thought of that verse, I’m thinking of it in context of my parents actually, you know, I would say my dad found an excellent wife. Was she an excellent wife? sixty-three years ago? Probably not. Was the potential there? Of course. But I believe that excellence was something that they were that relationship was something they were able to build into near perfection to a certain degree by identifying the cycles and patterns of relationship over time and building on them. And I think that’s what having those people, those sage people in our lives that are able to say, yeah, but have you noticed this? And then when this happens, then you d excuse me, then you do that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s where and I think we can get lost In trying to attain that that upper excellence instantaneously and not allowing it to be a process of just living in daily obedience.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, and I think that’s where that that, if you will, over time, and I and I think, you know, there again culturally as we’ve become a little more divided, we’ve lost that ability to have that sage influence in our lives. And it and it I think we Miss out on the ability to walk in excellence every day by talking with God first and saying, okay. What would you have me to do? Not looking at other people saying, okay, that’s what excellence looks like.

Justin:

Or my past output.

Mark:

Yes. Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Not not allowing that to here again, when we go too far forward, I believe we’re in God’s territory, and we go too far backwards, I believe we’re in God’s territory. We have to recognize we can’t change the past and we can’t control the future. So our ability to basically stay in the moment and be doing the things that God would want me to do as a parent, as a husband, as a follower, not necessarily in that same order. But yeah, as a as a follower of Christ, how that influences me as a father, as a as a husband, as a father, and you know, from from there on down, a son, you know, those kind of things. It’s just that’s that’s w when I’m thinking about that, I think we can get lost in trying to make everything excellent right now. Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like there’s a maybe a crossover between wisdom and true excellence, right? So a lot of this episode is a basically talking about our conflation of excellence with perfectionism.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

When I think we’d best we’d be best off to conflate it with wisdom

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? This excellence looks like wisdom.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Because wisdom tells you the right thing to be doing at the right time.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And Proverbs 31 woman comes out of a Proverbs, the wisdom book, right? It follows up with excellence. And I do believe as you operate in wisdom, excellence will follow you.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But it’s not the goal. It’s not the thing that carried in front of you

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right. And I think that’s your point, is like we’re we’re about we should be about doing the things we should be about doing.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

In the context of what God’s called us to do on a daily basis. And some days, I mean, we just We just re-released the the white blank page.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

The encore.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But I as I think about that, that that applies to this in the sense that We need to reset. We need to blank that page and start over and think about what does excellence really look like? ‘Cause I thought it was gonna look like this.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Building the barns, the storage for mice, you know, like using that example that the Bible talks about. This guy this this Rich guy who had all these plans for building God basically said, You don’t have you that’s not that’s out of your control. That’s whatever that, you know, but like That’s what I thought it was when I started this week, but right now it feels like all that’s going awry. What is true excellence look like for me this week? Hm, I think maybe it looks like focusing my attention on you know, my children who just went back to school and they’re sh they’re maybe struggling. They’re not, but like maybe they’re struggling or whatever. It’s like that’s where that’s where excellence has shifted to this week.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And it and I think we can even recognize part of excellence if we want to include wisdom is also intentionality.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

you know, that ability to be aware and say, okay, what is it this week? Not in a reactive sense, but in a proactive sense that says, okay, this shift is coming. I’m aware of this. And I’m willing to have the the the preemptive conversation even, if you will, to be able to say, hey This is coming up. You know, how are you feeling? And then when we’re there, it’s like, hey, how’s it going? You know, that kind of thing. And I think that’s That’s the part of us when we’re in that authentic space to be able to live that way. You know, because as I’m as I’m reading about this probably, you know, there’s different parts where, you know ships and food and you know and it’s like I think I think every person and then definitely every woman has those characteristics and it’s just a matter of broadening that dynamic over a lifetime. You know, as I’m as I’m thinking about that in the context of eulogizing my mom, you know, all of these different things come to mind.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m and I’m recognizing they are, you know, laudable

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet I’m also recognizing that’s not likely who my dad married. I know it’s not who my dad married sixty-three years ago. You know, that kind of thing. So I that’s where that that that thought of excellence and the sage and you know, because I do think, you know, so much that it reminds me I hope I didn’t mention it in the first bet, but it reminds me of that country song where the the the guy talks about I hear voices And it’s and it’s basically I hear my grandfather say, I hear my dad say, I hear voices all the time. You know, it’s not a it’s not a mental health issue, but it’s the fact that I have these sage You know, thoughts that go through my mind, you know, don’t do this, do that. And I think when God or you know is that voice and when I’m walking in obedience I think the excellence if you will follows over a lifetime

Justin:

So then you could also say uh wis d uh the the excellence we’re defining is closer to wisdom, closer to maturity.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? In the the w the excellence that’s a attained through maturing and maturing is not a process that can be expedited.

Mark:

Yes, I agree.

Justin:

It comes with what it comes with.

Mark:

Like a seed.

Justin:

Yes. And today you know, maybe your version of excellence is is not your ultimate excellent standpoint, but it is what you have today and but trusting the process of maturity times. And that comes with that daily

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And being able and I think when we started the the podcast, you know, w when we did You know, I think we were talking about, you know, the context of excellence and perfection.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and recognizing there’s only ever been one perfect person.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, and so therefore my desire to attain perfection Is is futile. It’s futile.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And yet there is that process of being able to say, okay Am I gonna am I gonna live today to its fullest? And I’m gonna am I gonna, you know, make the most of the opportunities I have? Sure. But yet I’m gonna trust God for the difference versus my ability to, you know, say, okay, I’m gonna get I’m gonna get there today.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s gonna happen today.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And I think that’s where, you know, I I think the as I’m sharing on that, I’m reminded of that scripture that talks about, you know, those these guys say, hey, we’re gonna go to this town and we’re gonna do this. And it’s like No, you you guys just don’t get it. You know, you can’t be guaranteed what tomorrow says, so you know, don’t go there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Kind of like your guy with the barn, you know, same, same context. I know what’s gonna happen. No.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Today’s what I get. Today’s what I need to live in authentic relationship with Christ in such a way that I’m doing what he would call me to do.

Justin:

And that’s where we get if the good Lord wills and the creek don’t rise.

Mark:

There you go. There you go. I like your use of the word creek. I have I’ve I’ve had the I’m almost having to challenge myself to say it that same way. But yeah Over over much learning.

Justin:

I only say it in that specific phrase.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Otherwise it’s creepy.

Mark:

That used to be that used to be the way I said it all the time.

Justin:

Crick. That’s Pennsylvania.

Mark:

Oh yeah. No that was uh

Justin:

I thought that was a southern thing.

Mark:

No, that was uh uh I yeah. I would say that I would say crick. My family will pick on me. There’s a few words that I have learned to re-say. And crick to creek would be one of them.

Justin:

Bolt is one for me.

Mark:

Parler is one and I still have to say it. I still have to enunciate. Yeah, I have to watch Alice because I’ll say, yeah, I’ll say it differently. Um that’s that’s my uh that’s my transition. Part of my transition

Justin:

in growth. That’s right.

Mark:

That’s right. Yes.

Justin:

You say parlor correctly. That’s part of excellence.

Mark:

You said that very well, by the way. If I could say it quite like that, I’d be I’d be uh Happy but

Justin:

I think you did, Mike. I think you know I w

Mark:

I know I uh emphasized that P A R part.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

yeah, very much still air. Yeah

Justin:

Yeah, it felt excellent. Well, thank you to me the way you said it.

Mark:

So yeah, so thanks very thanks. That’s right. And I appreciate the uh the reminder for the wrap-up and I think that was a I do think that was a good

Justin:

Yeah. Intentional.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Unintentional, but uh

Mark:

It was a good reminder that we don’t have to necessarily walk in excellence.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

On a daily basis. I mean

Justin:

And also a good reminder that sometimes the creek rises.

Mark:

Yes, it does.

Justin:

The recording stops.

Mark:

That’s right. As as we think about uh we might have a storm here in the next couple of days that uh we’re gonna probably experience some creek rising.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

But either way, Justin, thank you for your time. Thank you for all you do on uh to make this podcast possible. So

Justin:

Thank you.

Mark:

Yeah, if it had been up to me, I probably would have just released it as it was, and it’s like people would have been saying, Hey, what the hell what was Mark trying to say there? We lost it. The sage wisdom, and then we didn’t get it. We didn’t get it. You’re not gonna get it from me, I’ll be honest with you. But those are those people who have lived before us.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah. But so that’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I -C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.