Mark:

Let’s get it.

Justin:

Yeah,

Mark:

get that out so we’re not there we go. That

Justin:

‘s that There I hear that sound scootin’ uh in s like er occasionally when I’m editing and I know exactly what it ‘s pretty fun. You

Mark:

did?

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

I uh did we switch chairs, so how did we do that? Yeah ,

Justin:

I can give you that chair something.

Mark:

Oh, I don’t mind. I’m happy to take um hey We’re going. Let’s go too.

Justin:

We need to get another comfy chair. That’s what we need to do.

Mark:

Man, we we have a list.

Justin:

For all this good content we’re putting on.

Mark:

I shouldn’t laugh quite so loud, but I do.

Justin:

That’s right, they’re not listening. Oh wait, we’re recording.

Mark:

There you go. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Yeah. So how were your holidays, Justin?

Justin:

They were good. Yeah, good, yeah. I would say they were restful.

Mark:

Oh nice.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Nice.

Justin:

How about you?

Mark:

It was good. It was good. It was uh it seemed longer. Than normal?

Justin:

Okay. By the time?

Mark:

Yeah, it was good. And we uh like you say, we went up and uh got Lizzie You know, pri well as she wrapped up her semester and then, you know, both families and and we had some a neat time at the uh the Bible Museum. That was uh cool. That was a cool Part of our trip that we just said, you know, okay, let’s take a little family time, you know, for our family Christmas type stuff, and we did that in DC

Justin:

That’s when you drove back from

Mark:

That was on the trip home, yeah, to where we were back. We left on the 16th and we’re back on the 23rd, I believe it was.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

20. Yeah. So that was good. Actually 22nd, maybe that Thursday. Either way. But that we don’t typically, you know, run that long, kinda, you know. family dynamics are what family dynamics are, you know, we just kind of uh have recognized the the need to have some You know, time as family, but yeah, not necessarily make it any longer than than works for everyone, I think, is a way to Yeah, so it was good. And then just to have the four of us here, you know, in town over Christmas and do the week and yeah, and then Lizzie’s rolling back today, so Yeah, it’s it went quick. The front part seemed long, but when we got back here it seemed to go by rather quickly.

Justin:

Do you usually kind of split the break into two chunks like that?

Mark:

Split travel.

Justin:

Traveling and then here.

Mark:

Yeah, we’ll routinely uh more so lately, like you say, we’ll routinely catch both families. either one side or the other of Christmas. Like we try to typically, you know, work a weekend or something, you know, to where it’s not so difficult for people to get off and spend time with us because that’s that’s always the the the tricky part, you know, is and I’ve been on both sides of it. You know, it’s like when family if you’re if you’re kind of the resident and family comes into town it almost seems uh it can seem like, you know, well we gotta jump through the hoops ’cause so on and so forth are here. And they’re only here so we have to get together with them while they’re here. Mm-hmm. So it can seem like an obligation. for those who are local, you know, for when the visitors come in and and at the same time now we’re on that visitor end And it’s like, you know, people are saying, you know, well, we can’t necessarily do that. I don’t want to have to take a day off work, you know, to catch up with you guys on a Monday or, you know, a Thursday or whatever. And it’s like, well You know, we’re taking an entire week off, you know, to kinda make sure we have time with family. So it’s kinda interesting. It can be that polarizing dynamic again, you know, it’s like the ability to see, okay Yeah, when people come into town and they’re visiting, they’re, you know, kind of putting their life on hold to to set this time apart.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet, you know, the resident people, you know, have a schedule. They have their s you know, their things in place, their things they’re doing. So when, you know, people come, it can almost seem like, well, well you’re asking us to drop everything. just to spend time with you. And I and it it’s it’s a neat dynamic to be able to experience both sides of that.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, neither one right or wrong, but it’s just, it’s just uh uh uh interesting dynamic of family.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and it can be yeah. We we experienced kind of the opposite where we stayed and my parents came and we were the resident and they were the the visitors. Okay, sure And kind of the similar situation where um you know, we kinda planned it a little bit later than I guess a trip normally would be planned. So we kinda already had a a schedule laid out for the holidays. Okay. And they were able to kind of fold into it pretty well. They’re flexible in that way, which was cool.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, but yeah, kinda the same thing. There’s a couple of days I still had to work

Mark:

and Yeah.

Justin:

Things like that. And So yeah, it’s it is.

Mark:

And you do you do what you can, but it’s not like you can completely stop work. You know, depend I mean that that time of year, sometimes with the week after. It’s a little easy.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

And like you say, I would I would say our families did a fabulous job, you know, as far as that goes this year, you know, as far as really taking s we had some really you know, quality time with both families because people were willing to set that time aside. And I think, you know, the the sooner we talk about it you know, as families, the easier it is to kind of get that schedules like if we can talk about it, you know, long before December. You know, and then I think you know

Justin:

set expectation.

Mark:

Exactly And I think as our as we get older, you know, our our children become more adults and they have their own schedules, they have their own houses, you know, so it’s it’s more coordinating You know, what that time’s gonna look like with other people’s families. And it just uh yeah. It’s it’s a it’s a good time and it’s a worthwhile endeavor, and yet It takes some takes some uh communication. Yeah. And I’m glad you had a good time with your family.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, it was good.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You also see how uh you know as as f all families get older and you know the patriarch matriarch get older that how the it becomes a little more dwindled and you know like yeah for those same reasons you just described where Well now the parents, you know, maybe they have you know, their kids are coming in from college and so they can’t quite get away or Or, you know, even the kids start having babies of their own. It’s like, well now we’re gonna kinda hunker down.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, and it’s you just start re-establishing that core. where you are, no longer going back to the the other core and that core starts to dwindle.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You can definitely see those patterns in you know all families too. It’s kinda

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It is interesting.

Mark:

And I think in some cases, you know, that is a more modern phenomena, you know, as our families have you know, tended to move more more um div not diverse, but you know, we live in different g geographically speaking. We live further apart than a lot of families used to. You know, and I I’m thinking about it from that perspective too. You know, it’s like we’ve become um When we travel further away for jobs.

Justin:

Nomadic. Not

Mark:

yeah, that’s close enough. But yeah, it’s it’s to the point of Yes. Dispersed. You know, our families don’t just live all in one geographic area quite so much. And I think that, you know, that makes it tougher. You know, I mean All of the family that I saw, you know, short of us, was in Pennsylvania. But, you know, my my wife’s family, you know, Chris’s family, you know. you know, they were in Wisconsin and so forth. Yeah, I have a daughter, you know, my Chris’s niece would have been in Wisconsin, now they’re in Virginia, you know, it’s just you know, as as adult children grow You know, the majority of Chris’s family’s in New York still, but you know, they have n now her sister’s daughter is moving further away. And it, you know, that adds to that complexity. And it’s just a interesting dynamic Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think it’s a natural dynamic. Sure. For the most part. More so I think it’s really healthy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

If you you know I I imagine it would be difficult, again, as pr probably the patriarch or matriarch of the family to kind of start to see those things dwindle in those

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

traditions uh not quite align like they used to.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But at the same time, you know, uh to be healthy you you want that for your kids. You want them to you know them to start building their own you know, units and traditions and understanding too that now they’re in charge of their Yeah. Now they they’re becoming the matriarch and patriarch of their particular unit, you know, which is

Mark:

And yet that new tradition, if you will, as you referred to it, you know, is is different. than the traditions that we’ve kind of grown up with. And that I can respect that as a, you know, a different dynamic to adjust to.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s modified and morphed and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then of course you add in that, you know, aging dynamic that goes along with that, you know, as our parents age, you know, it’s part of that. It’s like, okay, ’cause, you know w at times we would meet at my brother’s house. You know, and we just realized this year in particular, and it was part of our adjustment, you know, it’s like, no, mom and dad aren’t able to travel.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Anymore like they once did, you know. So we’re gonna do it there and everybody’s gonna chip in and you know and bring what they can to to make it. you know, as easy on my parents as we can, you know, or Chris’s mom, that kind of thing, to be able to say, Yeah, we’re gonna come but we’re gonna help out and you know, so I think that’s a that’s a good thing to be able to kind of offset that load for our parents that as children, you know, we didn’t necessarily think about, you know, offsetting. So it’s just kind of neat. you know, to revisit these family dynamics, you know, especially around this time of year. And yet I also realize there’s there’s wrestling that goes into it and, you know, with that changing and the circumstances change. Yeah, it’s a it’s a neat opportunity to to learn.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And observe.

Justin:

What are some of the difficult aspects for you, Mark, in the you know, kind of that seasonal family get together you know type of thing.

Mark:

Yeah, I think

Justin:

to what you can actually say on the air.

Mark:

Yeah, no, I can speak about it all. I mean, yeah. Um I think there’s all for me, for Chris and I, I’ll say, you know, it’s always been a desire to create balance. You know, because when we go up, you know, it’s a desire to catch up with both families.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and I I realized this year, you know And uh and uh even as far as my parents were concerned, the fact that Chris’s dad, Ernie, passed away, you know, we recognized this was gonna be a different Christmas.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. Yeah. And it and it was, it was good, you know, in the in its difference because it was, you know, it was just a a neat time to be able to, you know, gather together and share those memories and It was kind of neat ’cause uh we accidentally when we set the the table we accidentally set one extra plate.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and that was kind of a neat time to reflect, you know, and say, Yeah, you know, Ernie ‘s still here with us in memory, you know, and yet Inadvertently, you know, it was like there was a place set. And so that was kind of neat. But I think, you know, to create, I think making sure that the time is as balanced as it can be under the circumstances. You know, and I think that’s a that’s just um It’s not necessarily. It’s not necessarily always hard, but it takes effort to make that a priority. And I think

Justin:

it can be stressful to be. Yeah.

Mark:

Yep. And uh and I recognize part of that dynamic for us is I have an on my side of the family, um a number of pastors. So, you know, Sundays are kind of off limits, you know, as far as, you know, being able to get everybody together.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And so that’s that’s part of that that balancing dynamic. And you know, that makes it tough because then typically my family, you know, gets that prioritized Friday-Saturday spot. And you know, Chris’s brother is also a pastor, but that kind of puts them in that Sunday-Munday spot, which can be tough for him. But then again, we typically attend church with them while we’re up there. So I think, you know, my parents have have, you know, and they were, you know, the first to say, yeah, make sure you’re, you know, allowing enough time to, you know, spend time with Linda and because this is gonna be different. different and but I think that was a and I appreciate you know my parents doing so or communicating that because I think you know it can be difficult you know between you know, parental families to say, hey, yeah, you know, well we didn’t get as much time or, you know, and I’ve unfortunately we haven’t necessarily ran into that, but I think part of it is on our part we try to make that effort. You know, we were able to plus it worked this year, we were going up, so that’s easy to catch my family and PA go to New York and then we gotta come back down. So I did actually do some work on my parents’ house and you know Chris was very gracious there saying yeah that’s a that’s a worthwhile investment as far as our time and so yeah I was that but I think that’s the the the work part is is striving to keep a balance and you know and recognizing yeah sometimes we need a little extra you know, or circumstances require a little extra, you know, based on, and you know, just being able to be mindful in that way.

Justin:

Yeah, and that’s excuse me. Even a little challenging for you not having kind of a codependent nature or people pleasing. you know, just imagine the difficulty, you know, of that you know, for people in that p camp. Sure.

Mark:

No, I hear ya.

Justin:

You’re managing you know, trying to keep everybody happy, right?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

And That’s like your number one goal and of course it’s not possible to keep everyone happy. Some people aren’t gonna be happy no matter what you do. Yeah. And uh we all have family members right would take that, right, where they’re just gonna be cantankerous no matter how you you know, whatever

Mark:

Are you one of the cantankerous ones?

Justin:

I think probably. I’m gonna work at that to be in more cantangers. Make sure I’m gonna get that stamp.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

But yeah, no, I s I think that you know, just imagine the difficulties yeah and

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

I think holidays can be start to become a traumatic time for them. You know what I mean?

Mark:

No, and I and that’s and I think that’s the interesting part ’cause I I run into that a lot, you know in you know, in my work and so forth. And, you know, it is that ability to you know uh be healthily differentiated, you know, that process of being that healthy individual family that says, okay, yeah, I’m thankful for what my family is giving me, but yet um I have moved away from that and we have created our own family and our own traditions and our own, you know, times to be able to say, yeah, okay. we can include this but we’re also adding this and if you know and and that that’s where I think for Chris and I you know it’s been our desire to, you know, kind of make establish that Christmas morning time for our family. You know, and and I think that was fundamental early on. And when I think about it, you know, w when John and Lizzie were young. You know, we kind of established that and I’m thankful we did, because now uh people understand, yeah, okay. And and I think it’s like with my brother or, you know, Chris’s, you know, siblings. You know, they understand that ’cause they want their own. You know, so then there’s that

Justin:

the natural.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, that brings up, you know, another family dynamic that can be difficult to adjust to, you know, in the at this time of year.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, it’s di it’s it’s different too, and I think it’s a different perspective on it, you know, when we go back We see things like I see how my parents have aged, you know, in some ways where, you know, my brother who’s there routinely, I’m sure he sees it. But yeah It’s it’s a gradual it’s more gradual for him than it is for me, you know, considering it’s probably been, you know, maybe six months, you know, since I’ve actually seen my parents. So it, you know, some of it is that a little bit of shock, you know, yeah that, oh wow, you know, yeah. There’s a there’s a reality to our lives being finite and, you know, in this aging process. So that’s, you know something that’s that’s uh you know new to deal with let alone you know thinking about it from you know uh Linda’s perspective as far as you know how her circumstances have changed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, uh you know, being without her husband, you know, holidays and the whole house to take care of and those kind of things. So Those are the things that we see, and I and I think that adds to the perspective that you know is different than like from Chris’s siblings who are right in that area. So yeah, it’s just uh a neat time.

Justin:

Yeah, and y you you use the term differentiated, which we’ve s you know, you’ve used before. Probably. It’s kind of Just another way to talk about you know, about having boundaries, right? Having proper boundaries around what you consider to be your your yourself and your family unit and the you know, the the broader family sure

Mark:

that the Yes and no. Okay. Differentiated is is when I grow up in a family system, I have I adopt or I am typically assigned or given roles You know, like you shared about the people pleaser, kind of that dynamic, okay? That’s a role. And there’s different roles. There’s, you know, depending on what’s what systems you know, you know, what theory you’re operating on. You know, there can be in old school there was, you know, the black sheep, you know, or the hero complex, you know, those kind of things. So those roles are assigned within our family system. A differentiated individual is able to grow up in that system, move away from it. And therefore, if if they’re differentiated, they can go back into that system and not take on those old family roles.

Justin:

Uh but that’s hard.

Mark:

Yes. That’s why there’s a word for it.

Justin:

Because it’s like you get you start driving back home and you just naturally your car finds those old rut Yes. And now you’re in those old ruts and it’s almost a little bit comfortable and you find yourself like, oh, I’m stuck.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

You know, I’m using that as a metaphor. I mean it’s very true though, like I often find myself going back you know, when I go back to family I haven’t been around or whatever. Where they start doing that, so you start doing this and because you’re doing this they ‘re And you just have this, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

These ruts you fall into and you stay stuck. So

Mark:

And that’s why there’s a word to describe when you don’t do that any longer.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Because it is so much of our, you know, our makeup that okay, they just did that. Well then and and I think, you know I think there’s levels of differentiated.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

You know, I think there’s angry differentiation where I’m just gonna go in and I’m gonna you know, blow things up. You know, and I would I would argue that’s not necessarily differentiated, you know, in a healthy sense. But yet it’s that same desire and it’s like I don’t want to do it the way I’ve always done it.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And yet, how do I do it differently? So yeah, that’s uh that’s definitely a wrestling that, you know, can occur. And I think it’s something that, you know, uh from speaking speaking personally, you know, I see it now in our family, you know, even with my with our adult children. You know what I’m saying? Cause you know, Lizzie ‘s gone away to college, Jonathan’s gone away to the Air Force, you know, they both had their times away. And now they’re coming back sometimes and when they come back they’re different people. Yeah. So you know that’s part of that, you know, they They don’t they don’t accept their roles well, especially when the other sibling is trying to put them in that role. You know, it’s just You’ve you’ve experienced that with Frisbee even, you know, just Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s it’s kind of that between John and Lizzie. Yeah.

Justin:

Seeing them buck their roles.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah, no, it’s it’s great.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah That’s funny.

Mark:

But the that’s and then you you know, so when I see that it’s like, yeah, I can recognize how my brother and I, you know, we’ve shifted, you know, as we’ve become our own families and you know, yeah. It’s a

Justin:

If you’re doing life right, you’re growing and you’re changing and you’re you know doing all these you know all these things we talk about in the podcast. If you

Mark:

sure

Justin:

if you’re working on all those things, like you’re you’re moving, you know? Yeah and so the the role you played in the the person you were growing up sh it shouldn’t match. You know, it shouldn’t match that same role. And I think you know, even for me uh when I when we when I would go back to my family and my sister and all that and we’d kinda all get together for a long time it was just again those ruts I we I would just slide back into those ruts and the more I’ve changed the more doing that was become became unacceptable to my spouse.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Who now knows who I can be.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right? And knows what I’m capable of and am on a fairly regular basis and to see me kind of slide into old habits or old behaviors that aren’t healthy for her, you know, like that that don’t honor her the way they should or you know, just whatever. you know, it’s it’s not acceptable. Like you know, and I’ve that’s been kind of the journey the last I don’t know whatever, let’s say twelve years. Sure. Whatever. To become differentiated, to understand that when I slide back into those situations I don’t slide back into those ruts, right? Like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, and I think, you know, it it’s difficult on you know our I’ll put it you know our relationships with our spouses when we go back And we slip into that role because it, you know, it reprioritizes to a certain degree. You know, it it can seem to me, if Chris falls into her role within her family, it’s like Hang on here, you know, the priorities have just shifted. You’re taking on the roles from that, you know, your prior family And you know, but yet part of that is just so much of a systems dynamic that when we’re in that system, we operate in that role. And like you’re saying, I think that’s part of the growth. that needs to occur is to be able to say no I don’t always have to accept that same role. Now am I gonna am I gonna operate within my family in a certain way Yeah, likely so, but it doesn’t mean that I have to abandon my spouse for the sake of, you know, my older sibling and, you know, my parents. Yeah. I can still say, okay, how do we you know, yeah, how do we remain our unit while still being within this family dynamic in such a way that Because I think it can be very difficult when couples aren’t able to do that, you know, and it it leads to that kind of dread.

Justin:

Yeah. Yep.

Mark:

That can come with the holidays and spending time with family. It’s like, I don’t even want to go there. You know, because one of us and you know, me or my spouse, you know becomes different. Yeah. And it’s just kind of awkward and it leads to the conflict and I thought we were gonna do it this way. You know, and it’s like, oh Shocks, I did it again, you know, if we’re if we’re willing to admit that. If we’re not, then it’s just makes it more difficult. No, I didn’t. You know? It’s like, oh, you know, you always get this way when we come, you know, when we you know and it just Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think that’s the part of the the it’s just uh makes an awkward dynamic at times, you know, w around the holidays. And it’s really unfortunate

Justin:

And what’s interesting too is like just how much so we’re talking, you know, kind of a lot about some of the difficult parts. Mm. But of course, you know almost everybody has this nostalgic idea of entering the home, you know fireplace is crackling, sure, you know, presents of the city. What is Christmas? Yeah, yeah. Catching up with the family, hugging everybody.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

So There is this comfort, right, that that comes with coming back to the that familiar.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um the challenge comes in the extended you know time where, okay, now that we’ve all settled in and caught up, now everyone get get to your places.

Mark:

Yes. Right? Yes.

Justin:

So that we can resume as we all understand this thing to be. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that’s where the struggles start to come in. And you hate to like you said, you get you know, it can quickly become something where you dread the holidays. Which is just so sad because there is so much g you know g Uh

Mark:

opportunity?

Justin:

Sure. Sure. There is opportunity. I guess I’m saying there’s also a lot of discomfort in Sure. You know, coming back to familiar faces and

Mark:

being together.

Justin:

Yeah, and and it’s a it’s a great opportunity, yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, but it’s a it can be a great opportunity to embrace who everybody has become.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But it’s not natural for that to happen. Yep. Right? It’s more natural to kinda go, okay Now that I know who you quote unquote are, get back to your spot of who I know you who who you actually are or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Kind of has that that feel to it, I think, a lot of times. Yeah. In a lot of families

Mark:

And I think I think that feeling can come and go.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s like in that time beforehand You know, there can be that dread, but then once we go through the door it’s good to see everyone, you know, and then you’re still processing the changes that you see automatically. You know, it’s like, oh, okay, you know mom and dad or this now and they it seems you know they’re a little slower or they’re you know part of that aging process you know and yet It kind of it can kind of take you in that direction to say, okay, maybe I need to uh you know offer a little more assistance or do, you know, some other things. Not in a um codependent manner, but just in a way that says, okay, how can I be of help? You know, and what things can I do while I’m here that would be helpful maybe even long term, you know, that kind of thing. And I think, you know, that becomes an opportunity. And to be able to, you know, just offset some of that load, you know, that they carry, you know, or, you know, even helping out where we can, you know, with with Linda while we’re there, you know, doing some projects or, you know, just little things that make their lives easier. And I think that is an opportunity. And you know there’s a there’s a blessing that comes with that. And you know, I think Here again, I think it’s a change and the dynamic. It’s like when we’re kids, you know, I think it can be a lot about, you know, the presence and you know that that that tree if you will. And all the presence around the tree, you know, and what that and the lights and and I think, you know, there is that change. And I, you know, I’ll even see it in our adult kids, you know, it’s like Yeah, now it’s about being able uh they were able to sit down with, you know, my parents and and just play cards one evening, you know, and just after, you know, my some of my other relatives had left, you know, and I that was just a a wonderful gift to me to be able to see my kids having that one-on-one time with their grandparents in such a way that it was just they were just having fun together. And it was like it was like, you know, my parents just became younger in that moment, you know, because it was like they were just laughing and having fun and just enjoying, you know, their grandkids. And you know that that had its own blessing in it as well. And yeah, we did, you know, there was the, you know, the the one gift that everybody brought and you can what is it where you can steal it? Yeah dirty

Justin:

tanna That’s what we call it.

Mark:

Is that what you call it? I thought you I think you call it white elephant or

Justin:

So white elephant, this uh we’ll see.

Mark:

It’s a pink elephant or no either way.

Justin:

White elephant, but dirty san is where you can steal

Mark:

Okay. Yeah. We could I’m not going with dirty I’m not say I’m not sure I’m yeah, I I I I know our family ha I know our family had a different name. Okay. No.

Justin:

It was probably white elephant.

Mark:

It could have been. But either way, yeah, you’re where you’re able to steal, but you could only steal

Justin:

Well I think it’s everybody has their limits. But yes, uh usually there’s

Mark:

So yeah, and to to watch, you know my parents, you know, kind of interact and, you know, get excited about a gift and yet get disappointed when it’s pulled away, you know, that kind of thing. But you know.

Justin:

That’s fun. That’s a great game.

Mark:

It is. It is. It is fun. And you know, and it it’s it allows that opportunity to say, hey, you know uh I’m thinking about you, you know, and I contributed this and this is a part of, you know, how I see, you know, my family and you know, there can still be a personal dynamic to it, you know, when you think of other people and Oh yeah, that person really likes those peanut covered MMs, you know, and it’s gonna be fun to throw this into the mix and see what happens, you know, that kind of thing.

Justin:

So the way you guys did it, would you did you basically pick a name and get

Mark:

Nope.

Justin:

It was just you brought something everybody brought something. Yeah.

Mark:

Every person is responsible for, you know, a gift and

Justin:

done both ways. Yeah. And you still do the same thing. I got it. But it’s like you didn’t get this one for them, but you knew uh yeah that Yeah.

Mark:

And it and it’s fun, you know, with youth when you think about the age differences, you know, young kids to you know, my parents and so forth.

Justin:

So do you do it with the young kids then too?

Mark:

Um, I uh you’re asking me to remember. Yes, the young kids are there. Um, you know, my parents will do small gifts for the young kids, but you know. Yeah, for the most part, yeah, we you know, it’s boxes of oranges and, you know, and trail mix and, you know, my mom or dad may make some Google loaf, you know, German, you know, nut bread type stuff, you know. So it’s that kind of thing, you know, that you can You know, and peanut brittle that my dad made some peanut brittle, you know, those are the things I remember. We took a box of oranges. So, you know, that’s good for little kids and stuff like that and families. And so yeah, it just makes it fun. There’s quite often a variety, no doubt.

Justin:

It’s fun.

Mark:

Yeah. Uh How about you? I’m sorry, I’m uh I how did Wha what I guess since we’ve talked about, you know, the difficulty, what we wrestle with and, you know, and the opportunities um wrestlings between you and Megan and opportunities, ’cause I think I’m not asking you just but I think, you know It helps to be able to share some of these wrestlings because I think it’s common, you know?

Justin:

Yeah, I think in in our dynamic, I guess the thing that was sort of referencing earlier is that Growing up, I was the youngest. I mean it was just me and my sister, so it did I

Mark:

Holly.

Justin:

Yes, Holly, exactly. There’s no mistletoe. But yeah, so it’s because we were so close in age and there’s just two of us, the younger older thing was a little bit different than maybe normal. I don’t know but

Mark:

how so?

Justin:

Uh well I don’t I don’t feel like uh I don’t like a lot of those younger older dynamics. I feel like I have some of the older and some of the younger ones. Oh wow okay in terms of things. Doesn’t matter. The but in growing up I definitely was the youngest and that you know but I don’t remember being treated like the way we treat my son who’s the youngest. Oh kinda gets out of doing a lot of stuff

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Yeah, it it wasn’t that way. It was basically everything was kind of split between me and my sister, obviously. You know, we were only thirteen months apart. So

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

You know, it’s not like I was the baby baby of the family. But the point is in when it comes to roles You know, I definitely was the youngest of the whole family. Sure. Four of us, right? Sure. And so for the longest time it was natural to kind of fall into that role of being the youngest and kind of just going with the flow and um kind of just I don’t know almost being lazy like you know and as I’ve gotten older recognizing like mm you know, that I need to contribute, obviously. But also, um, again with the thing with Megan is just her seeing me be change and grow and and become you know the kind of husband and dad that I need to be and then to kind of settle back into that. those roles is just it’s not acceptable. You know. Sure. And not only that, it ends up leaving her kind of exposed is the way she feels, you know what I mean? Where she’s not doesn’t quite feel like I’m the same ally, f you know, kinda like what you were describing earlier. where you kind of slide back into the roles of but maybe the spouse who wasn’t gro didn’t grow up in that is now kind of out on the edge, you know. Yeah. And so that dynamic has happened many a times in the past and you know, it’s still I don’t I don’t I wouldn’t say it’s one we struggle with any more. I think by this time by this point we’re we’re more cohesive than than that family is so it’s it’s more I’m more likely to be Um kind of on her side, but that the struggle then becomes okay and now I see it how you see it and now I have to work through this where it’s much easier to just kind of slide over there and not see what you know and like not have to address the people to be comfortable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that’s probably the best word to use actually is to say it’s less comfortable now because I don’t have to be more, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

In in a good way. It’s it’s important. But Um I I think that’s where it it becomes a little challenging and it’s not quite as relaxing as you like as you’d like it to be or whatever. Just ’cause you’re having to be yeah, uh not as comfortable.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um and you know, I y you know, I think we talked about differentiated like that takes work. Like you said that even that balance, that takes work. All of these things they take intentional effort and without that intentional effort is when you kind of slide back in.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that intentional effort can be uh fatiguing. Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um just be kind of always looking and always paying attention and always trying to be on your best behavior and always trying to not do the thing you would do unless it’s the right thing. And be like, oh yeah, it’s fine. Yeah. Uh so yeah, it can be very fatiguing. Yeah. I think and But also like I said it is there’s also that kind of nostalgic beautiful kind of come together where it’s just so nice to see everyone it’s nice to catch up and it’s nice to for everyone to have an opportunity to catch up, see my kids, you know, kind of showing off different things that they’ve done or they’re h in our our house or whatever, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I don’t know. It’s There’s a lot to say. I don’t know what, but

Mark:

part of that as I’m hearing it, it’s like you have to have different conversations in that process.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because as you initially alluded to, you know, differentiation and the ability to build boundaries, you know, we have to establish new boundaries sometimes. And I think that that can be the uncomfortable part opposed to the comfortable part. It’s like, no, things have to be redefined and we’re gonna have to have you know, some difficult conversations or you know, and I think that’s part of that healthy process.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think the older I get the more I recognize too to just change. in those circumstances and not have those healthy conversations is produces other unhealthy dynamics. So you’re not not meeting the expectations. of your th those family members or whatever, and so now there’s some schism there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because I’m changing but and I you know, I’m becoming differentiated. I’m not allowing you to put me in those roles or I’m not allowing myself to slide into those roles. But it’s like, but you’re different and you’re not the same you know, like w are you you know, are you cranky or are you whatever I don’t know what right all these various things and I recognize that sometime or m almost every time Change requires those conversations.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

To be able to say, hey, it used to be this way, now it’s this way.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I I you know I don’t I d I’m not willing to slide into that comfort zone at the expense of these things, you know? Yeah. And so those conversations, like you said, again can be uncomfortable, they can be fatiguing, they can be, you know.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Uh, but I do think it’s important to have them and I think if you have, you know, kind of difficult family dynamics, partly because you’re Trying to stay differentiated part of what might make that easier, hopefully in future years, is having some healthy conversations in love to say hey I wanna be this way now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And in in my life outside of this environment, I’m I’m getting there. Like I’m I’m different. And I I am this way. But when I come here, I you know, there’s this expectation that I put on myself that I kind of fall into these roles and I’m not comfortable in that role anymore.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know? I don’t know who you have to have those conversations with. It might have to be everybody. I don’t know. But it’s uh as uncomfortable as that is, there’s a greater chance of you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The next season being, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know.

Mark:

No, I and I think you bring up a great point because I think at times we can put a lot of pressure on the holiday. to you know re reconnect and yet it can it can go south because we haven’t necessarily made an intentional opportunity to kind of stay connected throughout the year. You know, and I think part of that Being able to stay connected is yeah, I desire to know and I and therefore I do know you You know, I know what’s going on with you throughout the year as we’ve stayed connected. So therefore, when we’re able to come back together, it’s not like, oh You’re so different, you know, because we’ve had this we’ve had conversations before. I understand. I understand where you are politically even. You know, some of those dynamics are difficult or can create, you know, d you know, um disagreements between family members, you know, it’s like Okay, yeah, I’m going in knowing where, you know, my parents, my brother, you know, other nieces, nephews, you know, where they stand politically and so forth, because we’ve even had those conversations prior to. you know, or you know, what’s going on in their life to where it’s like, okay, yeah, we’re that’s gonna be a part of our conversation, you know, coming into this holiday. And I think it’s you know it’s tough. If I, you know, if you’re in a s a family where it’s like we don’t necessarily maintain a connectedness and yet we want to get together in the holida get everybody together in the holidays. it can be tough.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, we have to be intentional, have to be. But I think it’s most helpful, you know, when we’re able to be intentional about really staying connected. And I think that can add to that desire to be together around the holiday. And it minimizes what can be dread for some families. It’s like, you know I don’t really like that person. Why would I want to go spend Christmas with that person? But yet if I’ve maintained a relationship and I’ve, you know And that you know it’s been reciprocal for the most part. I’m caring about them, they’re caring about me, you know. Then it’s like I look forward to you know being able to have some face to face time. And that’s my perspective, you know, because it’s like you know, I just don’t see I mean we see our families of not often, you know, but routinely I’ll say. And you know, so when we’re able to give those hugs and join together, yeah, it’s it’s good in that dynamic. Because there’s still a connectedness, you know, of being able to touch base on a, you know, a routine basis, I’ll say.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think that’s great a great point and I think I think when and where you can embrace those opportunities um it’s a healthy thing to do. Because Like me and my sister, we didn’t grow up particularly close, which is ironic because we were, again, close in age and kind of shared all responsibilities and But for some reason we just never quite had a bond, you know. Uh it was just kinda like you know, she did her thing, I did my thing and occasionally they were in the same place, but it’s I don’t know, we just didn’t really have a bond. And it stayed that way pretty much through our adult years until I wanna say a few years ago. Mm-hmm. And um I don’t rem it might have been her initi I can’t remember who initiated, but we just started having conversations about why don’t we have this bond and what can we do to Oh wow to rectify this? You know, how can we and we had to work through some like baggage from years of just not really having a connection and kind of perception issues from both sides of things and Like it took a little bit of effort, but we both wanted to do the effort and w we wanted the result of a bond and a and a closer relationship between our two families.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I mean, our families are have always gotten along really well and even when uh her and my brother in law Phil like brother in law her brother in law Phil was one of my best friends in high school Few years older than me, he was kind of like a mentor slash friend of mine. And then I was his best man in our wet their wedding.

Mark:

Oh nice

Justin:

And then when me and Megan got married he was my best man. Oh so you know when they were engaged in everything, I hung out with them

Mark:

Uh-huh. But

Justin:

it was Phil, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then when they got married, like I would go over there and then me and Megan we would hang out at their house and just have a good time. So we always had a good relationship in that. It was just me and Holly for some reason my sister who didn’t quite have that bond. Um but Megan and Holly get al get along really well, me and Phil really well. And then as our kids started being born, you know, n Noelle was the oldest. Um And so she c she was there several years before it even so she was kind of our you know our niece or she kinda got the baby thing. And then uh Mia and Regan were both born within seven days, I want to say. So They started kids, we started having kids and they kind of aligned in a lot of ways age-wise and so the connection just continued to grow. Sure. But again, it was just me and Holly were kind of missing that connection. So we’re like, we wanna continue to build this bond with our families, but we want it to be more regular and more intentional and part of that is, you know, is gonna be we’re healing some of these wounds andor working to build that relationship that we never truly tried to build.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and so that’s been awesome. Just as we’ve grown closer and we’ve had really good conversations. It’s to the point where she and I will call each other sometimes and talk about stuff. It’s like to me That was not part of the equation ever. That was never gonna be a thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yet now it is. Yeah. And where you know, other families it’s like You don’t call your sister, like or you know whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um so yeah, it it’s been cool to have that. And so I I guess I say all that to say if you have relationships in your family that you believe are worth the effort and were are additive to your life or should be additive. I think is worth working on. But I also think there are times to say it’s okay to not engage this person throughout the year and just let the holidays be what they’re gonna be.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

Because not every relationship is going to be additive, there’s gonna be some unhealthy dynamics that aren’t worth hashing out, maybe. And also you only have so many connection spots, right? Receptors. Yes, we can use the Lego. You know, I’ve heard that.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Illustration. Some of us are eight-piece Legos, some of us are, you know, whatever, those big flats, right? You can just stick every you know, they can connect with hundreds of people. Some of us are just the little one. Sure. You know what I’m saying? And so we all have our us we have a finite amount of connectors. And so you have to determine it’s if you’re in a completely different geographic region trying to build roots in that region, it makes sense that your connectors start to fill up in that region and there’s fewer left for, you know. Second cousin Eddie.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Sure. Where maybe growing up you were close, but now it’s like, not really, and I haven’t talked to him and I don’t know. So I guess there’s some healthy, you know, intentions, intentional decisions that need to happen in your friendly relationships. even recognizing as people grow and change and morph. Maybe who they’re changing and growing into isn’t necessarily someone you want to align your life with. Is that bad? I d I don’t think so. I think it’s naturally part of growth and change in kind of that yeah, that natural family systems where you start to move the centrality of your family into kind of a different core, you know?

Mark:

Yeah And I think in some cases even that you bring up a good point in that, you know, as far as, you know, the ability to main contact with everybody, I think there are also people who I may not have been in contact with for years that I can fall right back into that same yeah, you know, routine. You know, it’s like I have, you know, the college friend Dean. I haven’t talked with him in years, you know, but at the same time you know, there’s no doubt in my mind it’s I can catch my brother’s that we don’t always talk, but you know, my brother’s another one. It’s like we can It’s like, yeah, we can fall right back in and you know we don’t have to maintain that all the time, but yet there’s always an opportunity to be able to So catch up real quick and just be, you know, glad to have that time together, you know. And I I think of those people, you know, that come to mind that are just, yeah I may not have talked with them. I’m just thinking of a skit that came to mind. I forget. I think it was uh who ‘s the the show with Tim Allen? Uh that he did later. Tim Natalie. Oh after that. Was it Last Man Standing?

Justin:

I actually don’t know.

Mark:

Okay, but he talks about, you know, difference between friends for him and friends for his wife, you know, and that kind of thing comes to mind. you know, sometimes there’s friends that you have that you haven’t had to have talked with for years, but yet you know they’re your friend. Yeah. You know, so yeah, that’s part of a skip, but part of a show, but that just came to mind.

Justin:

And those types of people I imagine hold their expectations of you loosely.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

And that’s why it’s easy to catch up. Right. It’s easy to kind of fall back in and have a good catch up conversation. Is they’re not expecting you to fall into that old role there.

Mark:

Sure. Or happy for anything.

Justin:

There’s something about your core that they can that they emb uh bond with.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That doesn’t need the outer stuff to stay the same

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean? I I do think there’s something about, you know, certain people where there’s just a core bonding that that can occur there

Mark:

No, it makes sense. And tipi I would say in in a lot of cases those people aren’t always necessarily gonna be family members.

Justin:

Right. Yeah. No, because I think family members the way kind of the outer version of you fits into this mold.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And when that changes the mold it breaks, right? Like so now it’s like, well who’s gonna play that role?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know that that it messes up the mold. So I d I definitely think you’re right in that.

Mark:

And I think that’s been, you know, if I m when I mentioned my brother, I think that’s been a difference too. you know, when kind of like with your sister, when that mold of who I was, you know, as a younger sibling kind of broke, you know, then our relationship was able to be developed You know, from that.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s kudos to him for being able to say, you know, I don’t need to stuff him into that younger brother role and and

Mark:

Right? So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, no doubt.

Justin:

Yeah, ’cause I think that can be yeah, it’s just yeah. It can be hard on all sides, right? Sure.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You you like you y you maybe would want, you know, that person in your life to stay where they were because that represented a certain amount of comfort or or um stability and when they shift it’s like no get back over there so I can feel stable again or whatever. I there’s some of that that that got that can go on too. And again can happen without That i when you’re not doing the intentional thing. Right? So in other words, when you slide back into ruts, you’re not trying to force your sibling back into their roles. You just do it because you’re in the rut.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Whereas some intentionality Because we’re mostly we’re talking about from our wor you know central worldview being me. So how everyone reacts to me, but the reality is that’s not how life works.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And so your your sister, your your brother, like they have a central universe of them. And your you know how you engage with them matters too. And there’s a very good chance that all these things we’re talking about you’re like you’re the bad guy. Right? I’m the bad guy.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

I’m shoving them trying to shove them back into that role that I think they belong in. And again, maybe because I’m in an unhealthy place Because I ran out.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

I ran out of the ability to be the right kind of Justin. And now I’m kind of falling into my ruts of being whatever it is. And now I’m trying to shove you back. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

So I think it’s important to think about this from both angles there to recognize that, you know, there’s y your parents too, like there’s some comfort in their family coming together and kind of fitting into this mold and there’s this comfort and stability and when that mold breaks that can re represent um It can be a painful moment for parents to see that what they built is no longer a thing. And it can be really good. But it might not feel that way.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? It might feel like what they worked for is gone.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

When the reality is it’s not gone, it’s just changed shape. Sure. Ideally good ways You know?

Mark:

Yeah. The potential is there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And if

Justin:

I can

Mark:

if I can see

Justin:

let’s say the potential’s there or let’s let’s say things change for the worse in some cases. Well You can’t ch shove it back into you know you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tooth, so how are you gonna deal with the mess on the counter? Well, you gotta figure out how to be a new kind of mom or dad in this situation, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That can accept, that can love, that can embrace.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah, I don’t that’s I don’t know, I’m not there yet.

Mark:

That will be another that’ll be another podcast. Yes. Yes

Justin:

Yeah, we need to have some parents of adults. Uh you know, adults with kids. There you go. Say that.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Have them tell us how to do it.

Mark:

There you go. Well Justin, I’m glad you had a good holiday.

Justin:

You too, Mark.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Another one in the books.

Mark:

Another one in the books. Looking forward to what lies ahead for 2023.

Justin:

That’s right. It’s gonna be hard to remember that.

Mark:

Yeah. To

Justin:

say that, you know, in the first month. It’s always 2022.

Mark:

I haven’t had to write a check yet. Yeah. But that’s always the big one. This is how I see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.