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[Music]

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let's get a get C get that out some out there you go there I hear that sound yeah scooting

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that and like occasionally when I'm editing and I know exactly what it's

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pretty fun you good I'm good did we switch

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chairs how did we do that yeah give you that chair oh I don't mind I'm happy to take I'm hey we're going that's cool too

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we need to get another comfy chair that's what we need to do man we we have a list I know yeah well we're that's cuz

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we need our our listeners to start paying up for all this good content

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we're putting on I shouldn't laugh quite so loud but I

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do that's right they're not listening Oh wait we're recording there you go

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[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

1:06
Pratt and J Sternberg this is a podcast that works to countercultural

1:13
polarization through thoughtful [Music]

1:18
conversations yeah so how were your holidays Justin they were good yeah good

1:24
yeah I would say they were restful oh nice yeah nice how how about you it was

1:31
good it was good it was uh it seemed longer than normal okay by the time good

1:37
way yeah it was good and we uh like you say we went up and uh got Lizzy you know

1:43
PRI as she wrapped up her semester and then you know both families and and we

1:49
had some a neat time at the uh the Bible Museum that was a cool that was a cool

1:54
part of our trip that we just said you know okay let's take a little family time you know for our family christas

2:00
type stuff and we did that in DC and that's when you drove back from that was on the trip home yeah to where we were

2:05
back we left on the 16th and we're back on the 23rd I believe it was yeah 20

2:12
yeah so that was good actually 22nd maybe that Thursday either way but that we don't typically you know run that

2:20
long kind of you know family Dynamics are what family Dynamics are you know we

2:25
just kind of uh have recognized the the need to have some you know time as family but yeah not

2:33
necessarily make it any longer and than works for everyone I think is a way to

2:38
true yeah you know it's good yeah so it was good and then just to have the four of us here you know in town over

2:46
Christmas and through the week and yeah and then Lizzy's rolling back today so

2:51
yeah it's it went quick the front part seemed long but when we got back here it seemed to go by

2:59
rather quickly do you usually kind of split the break into two chunks like that split the traveling and then here

3:06
yeah we'll routinely uh more so lately like you say We'll routinely catch both families

3:14
either one side or the other of Christmas like we try to typically you know work a weekend or something you

3:21
know to where it's not so difficult for people to get off and spend time with us

3:26
cuz that's that's always the the the tricky part you know and I've been on

3:32
both sides of it you know it's like when family if you're if you're kind of the

3:38
resident and family comes into town it almost seems it can seem like you know

3:45
well we got to jump through the Hoops cuz so on and so forth are here and they're only here so we have to get

3:51
together with them while they're here MH so it can seem like an obligation for

3:56
those who are local you know for when the visitors come in and and at the same

4:04
time now we're on that visitor end and it's like you know people are saying you know well we can't necessarily do that I

4:11
don't want to have to take a day off work you know to catch up with you guys on a Monday or you know a Thursday or

4:17
whatever and it's like well you know we're taking an entire week off you know to kind of make sure we have time with

4:24
family so it's kind of interesting it can be that polarizing Dynamic again you know like the ability to see okay yeah

4:32
when people come into town and they're visiting they're you know kind of putting their life on hold to to set

4:37
this time apart yeah and yet you know the resident people you know have a

4:44
schedule they have their you know their things in place their things they're doing so when you know people come it

4:50
can almost seem like well well you're asking us to drop everything just to spend time with you and I and it's it's

4:56
a neat Dynamic to be able to experience both sides of that yeah so yeah neither

5:02
one right or wrong but it's just it's just a a an interesting Dynamic of

5:07
family yeah yeah yeah and it can be yeah we we experienced kind of the opposite

5:13
where we stayed and my parents came and we were the resident and they were the the visitor sure and kind of the similar

5:19
situation where um you know we kind of planned it a little bit later than I guess a trip normally would be played so

5:25
we kind of already had a schedule laid out for the holidays and they were able to kind of fold into it pretty well

5:32
they're flexible in that way which is cool sure um but yeah kind of the same thing there's a couple days I still had

5:38
to work and things like that and um so yeah it's it is and you do you do what

5:43
you can but it's not like you can completely stop work you know I mean that that time of year sometimes with

5:49
the week after it's a little easier flexibility and like you say I would I would say our families did a fabulous

5:56
job you know as far as that goes this year you know as far as really Takens we had some really you know quality time

6:02
with both families because people were willing to set that time aside and I think you know the the sooner we talk

6:09
about it you know as families the easier it is to kind of get that schedule like

6:14
if we can talk about it you know long before December you know and I think you

6:20
know set expectation exactly and I think as our as we get older you know our our

6:27
children become more adults and they have their own schedules they have their own hous you know so it's it's more

6:34
coordinating you know what that time's going to look like with other people's families and it just uh yeah it's it's a

6:42
it's a good time and it's a worthwhile Endeavor and yet it takes some takes

6:47
some uh communication MH yeah and I'm glad you had a good time with your family yeah yeah it was good yeah you

6:55
also see how uh you know as as all families get older and you know the

7:01
patriarch matriarch get older that how that it becomes a little more dwindled

7:07
and you know like for those same reasons you just described where well now the

7:12
parents you know maybe they have you know their kids are coming in from college and so they can't quite get away

7:18
or or you know even the kids start having babies of their own it's like well now we're going to kind of hunker

7:23
down yeah you know and it's you start reestablishing that core Where You Are

7:29
yes no longer going back to the the other core and that core starts to dwindle yeah you can definitely see

7:36
those patterns and you know all families too it's kind of yeah it is interesting

7:42
and I think in some cases you know that is a more modern phenomena you know as

7:49
our families have you know tended to move more more um not diverse but you

7:56
know we live in different geographically speaking we live further apart than a lot of

8:02
families used to MH you know and I I'm thinking about it from that perspective

8:07
too you know it's like we've become um when we travel further away for jobs

8:14
nomic not yeah that's close enough but yeah it's to the point of yes dispersed

8:22
you know our families don't just live all in one geographic area quite so much

8:28
and I think you know that makes it tougher mhm you know I mean all of the

8:33
family that I saw you know short of us was in Pennsylvania but you know my my wife's

8:41
family you Chris's family you know well they were in Wisconsin and so

8:47
forth I have a daughter you know my Chris's niece would have been in Wisconsin now they're in Virginia you know it's just you know as as adult

8:54
children grow you know majority of Chris's family is in New York still but you know they have now her sister's

9:01
daughter is moving further away and you know that adds to that complexity and

9:07
it's just an interesting Dynamic yeah yeah and I think it's a natural Dynamic

9:14
sure the most part more sobly healthy yeah if you you know I imagine it would be difficult

9:21
again as probably the patriarch or matriarch of a family to kind of start to see those things dwindle in those

9:29
itions uh not quite align like they used to yeah but at the same time you know to

9:37
be healthy you you want that for your kids you want them you know them to start building their own you know units

9:43
and traditions and Y and understanding too that now they're in charge of their

9:50
you know now they they're becoming the matriarch andar of their particular unit

9:55
you know which is and yet that new tradition if you will as you referred to it you know is is different than the

10:02
Traditions that we've kind of grown up with and that I can respect that as a

10:08
you know a different Dynamic to adjust to yeah it's modified and morphed and

10:13
yeah yeah and then of course you add in that you know aging Dynamic that goes along with that you know as our parents

10:20
age you know it's part of that it's like okay cuz you know at times we would meet

10:27
at my brother's house mhm you know you know and we just realized this year in particular and it was part of our

10:33
adjustment you know it's like know Mom and Dad aren't able to travel yeah

10:38
anymore like they once did you know so we're going to do it there and everybody's going to chip in and you

10:44
know and bring what they can to to make it you know as easy on my parents as we

10:49
can you know or Chris's mom that kind of thing to be able to say yeah we're GNA come but we're gonna help out and you

10:56
know so I think that's a that's a good thing to be able to kind of offset that

11:02
load for our parents that as children you know we didn't necessarily think about you know offsetting so it's just

11:09
kind of neat you know to revisit these family Dynamics you know especially

11:15
around this time of year and yet I also realize there's there's wrestling that goes into it and you know with that

11:22
changing and the circumstances change yeah it's a it's a neat opportunity to

11:29
to learn yeah and observe what are some of the difficult aspects for you mark in

11:35
the you know kind of that seasonal family get together you know type of

11:41
thing yeah I what you can actually say on the air yeah no I can speak about it

11:46
all I mean yeah um I think there's all for me for Chris

11:52
and I I'll say you know it's always been a desire to create balance you know cuz

12:01
when we go up you know it's a desire to catch up with both families yeah and you

12:07
know and I I realized this year you know and I and I even as far as my parents

12:15
were concerned the fact that Chris's dad Ernie passed away you know we recognized

12:20
this was going to be a different Christmas yeah you know and it and it was it was good you know in it in its

12:27
difference because it was you know it was just a a neat time to be able to you know gather together and share those

12:33
memories and it was kind of neat cuz uh we accidentally when we set the the table we accidentally set one extra

12:40
plate yeah you know and that was kind of a neat time to reflect you know and say yeah you know Ernie's still here with us

12:47
in memory you know and yet inadvertently you know it was like there was a place

12:52
set and so that was kind of neat but I think you know to create I think making

12:57
sure that time is as balanced as it can be under the circumstances MH you know

13:05
and I think that's a that's just um it's not

13:10
necessarily it's it's a it's a priority it's not necessarily always hard but it takes effort to make that a priority and

13:17
I think you and it can be stressful too it yeah yep and and I recognize part of

13:23
that Dynamic for us is I have and on my side of the family um a number of

13:29
pastors mhm so you know Sundays are kind of off limits you know as far as you

13:36
know being able to get everybody together yeah you know and so that's that's part of that that balancing

13:42
Dynamic and you know that makes it tough because then typically my family you know gets that prioritized Friday

13:49
Saturday Spot and you know Chris's brother is also a pastor but that kind of puts them in that Sunday Monday spot

13:56
which can be tough for him but then again we typically attend church with them while we're up there so I think you

14:01
know my parents have you know and they were you know the first to say yeah make sure you're you know allowing enough

14:07
time to you know spend time with Linda and because this is going to be different and but I think that was a and

14:13
I appreciate you know my parents doing so or communicating that cuz I think you know it can be difficult you know

14:21
between you know parental families to say hey yeah you know well we didn't get

14:26
as much time or you know and I and fortunately we haven't necessarily ran

14:31
into that but I think part of it is on our part we try to make that effort you know we were able to plus it worked this

14:38
year we were going up so that's easy to catch my family in PA go to New York and then we got to come back down so I did

14:44
actually do some work on my parents house and you know Chris was very gracious there saying yeah that's a

14:50
that's a worthwhile investment as far as our time and so yeah I was that but I think that's the the the work part is is

14:59
striving to keep a balance MH and you know and recognizing yeah sometimes we

15:05
need a little extra you know or circumstances require a little extra you

15:10
know based on and you know just being able to be mindful in that way yeah and

15:17
that's excuse me even a little challenging for you not having kind of a

15:23
codependent nature or people pleasing you know just imagine the difficulty you

15:30
know of that you know for people in that camp I hear you you're managing you know

15:37
trying to keep everybody happy right yeah and that's like your number one

15:43
goal and of course it's not possible to keep everyone happy some people aren't going to be happy no matter what you do

15:49
you and uh we all have family members right with that right where they're just going to be can tiners no matter how you

15:56
you know whatever are you one of the can on I think probably I'm going to work at that being

16:03
more caners make sure I'm going to get that stamp done I got you but yeah no so

16:09
I think that you know just imagine the difficulties there and yeah I think

16:15
holidays can be start to become a traumatic time for you know what I mean no and I and that's and I think that's

16:21
the interesting part because I I run into that a lot you know in you know in

16:26
my work and so forth and you know it is that ability to you

16:31
know be healthily differentiated you know that process of being that healthy

16:37
individual family that says okay yeah I'm thankful for what my family is giving me but yet um I have moved away

16:44
from that and we have created our own family and our own traditions and our own you know times to be able to say

16:52
yeah okay we can include this but we're also adding this and if you know and and

16:58
that's where I think for Chris and I you know it's been our desire to you know kind of make establish that Christmas

17:05
morning time for our family you know and I think that was fundamental early on

17:12
and I want to think about it you know when John and Lizzy were young you know we kind of established that and I'm

17:18
thankful we did because now people understand yeah okay and and I think it's like with my brother or you know

17:25
Chris's you know siblings you know they understand that cuz they want their own you know so then there's that yeah

17:34
yeah but I think you know that brings up you know another family Dynamic that can

17:40
be difficult to adjust to you know in at this time of year yeah and I think you

17:47
know it's it's it's different too and I think it's a different perspective on it

17:53
you know when we go back we see things like I see how my parents have aged you

18:01
know in some ways where you know my brother who's there routinely I'm sure he sees it but yeah it's it's a gradual

18:09
it's more gradual for him than it is for me you know considering it's probably been you know maybe six months you know

18:16
since I've actually seen my parents so you know some of it is that a little bit

18:21
of shock you know that oh wow you know yeah there's a there's a reality to our

18:28
lives being finite and you know in this aging process so that's you know

18:33
something that's that's uh you know new to do with let alone you know thinking about it from you know uh Linda's

18:41
perspective as far as you know how her circumstances have changed yeah you know

18:46
you know being without her husband you know holidays and the whole house to take care of and those kind of things so

18:53
those are the things that we see and I and I think it adds to the perspective that you know is different and like from

18:59
Chris's siblings who are right in that area so yeah it's just a a neat time

19:07
yeah and you you use the term differentiated which we you know you've used before it's kind of just another

19:14
way to talk about you know about having boundaries right having proper boundaries around what you consider to

19:19
be your your yourself and your family unit and the you know the broader family

19:24
sure that yes and no differentiate ated is is

19:30
when I grow up in a family system I have I adopt or I am typically assigned or

19:37
given roles you know like you shared about the people pleaser kind of that Dynamic okay that's a role and there's

19:44
different roles there's you know depending on what's what system you you know what theory you're operating on you

19:51
know there can be an old school there was you know the black sheep you know or the hero comp you know those kind of

19:57
things so those roles are assigned within our family system a

20:03
differentiated individual is able to grow up in that system move away from it and therefore

20:13
if if they're differentiated they can go back into that system and not take on

20:19
those old family roles but that's hard yes that's why

20:25
there's a word for it because it's like you get you start driving back home and

20:31
you just naturally your car finds those old ruts and now you're in those old ruts and it's almost a little bit

20:38
comfortable and you find yourself like oh I'm stuck yes you know I'm using that

20:43
as a metaphor I mean it's very true though like I often find myself going

20:48
back you know when I go back to family haven't been around or whatever you kind of fall into those old patterns with

20:54
everybody where they start doing that so you start doing this and because you're doing thisly there and you just have

21:00
this yeah yes these ruts you fall into and you stay stuck so and that's why

21:05
there's a word to describe when you don't do that any longer yeah because it

21:12
is so much of our you know our makeup that okay they just did that well then

21:17
and and I think you know I think there's levels of differentiated sure you know I

21:23
think there's angry differentiation where I'm just going to go in and I'm G to you know blow things

21:31
up yeah you know and I would I would argue that's not necessarily differentiated you know in a healthy

21:38
sense but yet it's that same desire it's like I don't want to do it the way I've

21:43
always done it right and yet how do I do it differently so yeah that's uh that's

21:49
definitely a wrestling that you know can occur and I think it's something that you know from speaking speaking

21:58
personally you know I see it now in our family you

22:03
know even with my with our adult children you know what I'm saying because you know Lizzy's gone away to

22:10
college Jon's gone away to the Air Force you know theyve both had their times away and now they're coming back

22:16
sometimes and when they come back they're different people so you know that's part of that you know they they

22:22
don't they don't accept their roles well especially when the other sibling is trying to put them in that role you know

22:29
it's just you've you've experienced that with

22:34
frisbee even you know just yeah yeah it's it's it's kind of that mean with

22:40
the between John and Lizzy you know Buck their roll exactly yeah no it's it's

22:46
great yeah yeah that's funny but that that's

22:52
and then you know so when I see that it's like yeah I can recognize how my brother and I you know we've shifted you

22:59
know as we' become our own families and you know yeah it's a Well if you're

23:05
doing life right you're growing and you're changing and you're you know doing all these you know all these

23:10
things we talk about in the podcast if you sure if you're working at all those like you're you're moving you know and

23:17
so the role you played in the the person you were growing up it shouldn't match

23:24
you know it shouldn't that same role and I think you know even for me when I when

23:30
we when I would go back to my family and my sister and all that and we kind of all get together for a long time it was

23:36
just again those ruts I would just slide back into those ruts and The more I've

23:41
changed the more doing that was be became unacceptable to my spouse sure

23:48
who now knows who I can be yes right and knows what I'm capable of and am on a

23:56
fairly regular basis and to see me kind of slide into Old Habits or old behaviors yeah that aren't healthy for

24:03
her you know like that that don't honor her the way they should or you know whatever you know it's it's not

24:09
acceptable like you know and I've that's been kind of the journey the last I know

24:14
whatever let's say 12 years whatever to to become differentiated to understand

24:20
that when I slide back into those situations I don't slide back into those

24:26
ruts right like yeah yeah yeah and I think you know it it's difficult on you

24:33
know our I'll put it you know our relationships with our spouses when we

24:39
go back and we slip into that role because it you know it re prioritizes to

24:45
a certain degree you know it it can seem to me if Chris falls into her role

24:51
within her family it's like hang on here you know the priorities have just shifted you're taking on yeah the rules

24:58
from that you know your prior family and you know but yet part of that is just so

25:04
much of a systems Dynamic that when we're in that system we operate in that role and like you're saying I think

25:11
that's part of the growth that needs to occur is to be able to say no I don't

25:16
always have to accept that same role now am I going to am I going to operate

25:22
within my family in a certain way yeah likely so but it doesn't mean that I

25:28
have to abandon my spouse for the sake of you know my older sibling and you know my parents I can still say okay how

25:36
do we you know yeah how do we remain our unit while still being within this

25:42
family dynamic in such a way that because I think it can be very difficult

25:48
when couples aren't able to do that you know and it leads to that kind of dread

25:55
yeah yeah that can come with the holidays and spending time with family it's like I don't even want to go there

26:02
you know because one of us and you know me or my spouse you know becomes

26:08
different yeah and it's just kind of awkward and it leads to the conflict and

26:14
I thought we were going to do it this way you know and it's like oh shocks I

26:20
did it again you know if we're if we're willing to admit that if we're not then

26:25
it's just makes it more difficult no I didn't you know it's like oh you know you always get this way when we come you

26:32
know when we you know and it just yeah and I think that's

26:37
the part of the the it's just a makes an awkward Dynamic at times you know around

26:45
the holidays and it's really unfortunate and what's interesting too is like just how much so we're talking

26:52
you know kind of a lot about some of the difficult Parts but of course

26:58
you know almost everybody has this nostalgic idea of entering the home you

27:04
know fireplaces crackling you know presents what is Christmas yeah catching up with the

27:10
family hugging everybody yep so there is this Comfort right that that comes with

27:18
coming back to the that familiar yep um The Challenge comes in the extended you

27:24
know time where okay now that we've all settled in up now everyone get get to your places yes right yes so that we can

27:32
resume as we all understand this thing to be you know and I think that's where the struggles start to come in and you

27:39
hate to like you said you get you know it can quickly become something where you dread the holidays M which is just

27:47
so sad because there is so much you know uh opportunity sure sure there is

27:57
opportunity guess what I'm saying there's also a lot of just comfort in you know coming back to familiar faces

28:03
and catching being together yeah and and it's a it's a great opportunity yes yeah

28:09
um but it's a it can be a great opportunity to embrace who everybody has

28:14
become yeah but it's not natural for that to happen yep right it's more natural to kind of go okay now that I

28:21
know who you quote unquote are get back to your spot of who I know you who you actually are or whatever yeah you know I

28:28
mean kind of has that that feel to it I think a lot of times in a lot of families and I think I think that

28:34
feeling can come and go yeah you know it's like in that time beforehand you

28:40
know there can be that dread but then once we go through the door it's good to see everyone you know and then you're

28:46
still processing the changes that you see automatically you know it's like oh

28:52
okay you know Mom and Dad are this now and they it seems you know they're a

28:57
little slower or they you know part of that aging process you know and yet it

29:03
kind of it can kind of take you in that direction to say okay maybe I need to uh

29:09
you know offer a little more Assistance or do you know some other things not in a um codependent manner but just in a

29:16
way that says okay how can I be of help you know and what things can I do while

29:21
I'm here that would be helpful maybe even longterm you know that kind of thing and I think you know that becomes

29:28
an opportunity MH and to be able to you know just offset some of that load you

29:35
know that they carry you know or you know even helping out where we can you know with with Linda while we're there

29:40
you know doing some projects or you know just little things that make their lives

29:46
easier and I think that is an opportunity and you know there's a there's a blessing that comes with that

29:53
and you know I think here again I think it's it's a change and the dynamic it's like when

30:01
we're kids you know I think it can be a lot about you know the presence and you

30:07
know that that that tree if you will and all the presence around the tree you know and what that and the lights and

30:14
and I think you know there is that change and you know I'll even see it in our adult kids you know it's like yeah

30:23
now it's about being able they were able to sit down with you know my parents and and just play cards one evening you know

30:30
and just after you know my some of my other relatives had left you know and I that was just a a wonderful gift to me

30:37
to be able to see my kids having that one-on-one time with their grandparents in such a way that it was just they were

30:43
just having fun together and it was like it was like you know my

30:49
parents just became younger in that moment you know because it was like they were just laughing and having fun and

30:56
just enjoying you know their grandkid and you know that that had its own blessing in it as well and yeah we did

31:03
you know there was the you know the the one gift everybody brought and you could what is it where you can steal it dirty

31:10
Tana that's what we call it is that what you call I thought I think you call it white elephant or it's a white elephant

31:18
is a pink elephant or no either way a white elephant but dirty Santa is where you can

31:23
steal okay yeah we can I'm not going with d I'm not I'm not sure I'm yeah I

31:30
know our family had I know our family had a different name okay no it was probably a white elephant it could have been could but either way yeah you where

31:36
you're able to steal but you could only steal it three times is that well I think see everybody has their limits but

31:43
yeah usually there's so yeah and to watch you know my parents you know kind of interact and you know get excited

31:49
about a gift and yet get disappointed when it's pulled away you know that kind of thing but you know that's fun that's

31:57
a great it is it is it is and you know and it it's it allows that opportunity to say

32:04
Hey you know I'm thinking about you you know and I contributed this and this is a part of you know how I see you know my

32:11
family and you know there can still be a personal Dynamic to it you know when you think of other people and oh yeah that

32:18
person really likes those peanut covered M&M's you know and it's going to be fun to throw this into the mix and see what

32:24
happens you know that kind of thing so the way you guys did it would you did you basically pick a name and get nope

32:31
it was just you brought something everybody yeah every person is

32:36
responsible for you know a gift and cuz I've seen it done both ways and you still do the same thing I you go around

32:43
people can steal but it's like you didn't get this one for them but you knew yeah and it and it's fun you know

32:51
with you when you think about the age differences you know young kids to you know my parents and so forth the young

32:58
kids then too um I you're asking me to remember yes the young kids are there um

33:05
you know my parents will do small gifts for the young kids but you know yeah for

33:10
the most part yeah we you know it's boxes of oranges and you know and trail mix and you know my mom or dad may make

33:18
some Google oaf you know German you know nut bread type stuff you know so it's that kind of thing you know that you can

33:24
you know peanut brittle that my dad made some peanut brittle you know those are the things I remember we took a box of oranges so you know that's good for

33:31
little kids and stuff like that and families and so yeah it just makes it fun there's quite often a variety no

33:37
doubt it's fun yeah uh how about you I'm sorry I'm uh I

33:43
how did what what I guess since we've talked about

33:49
you know the difficulty what we wrestle with and you know and the opportunities um wrestling between you

33:56
and Megan and opportunities cuz I think I'm not asking you just but I think you know it helps to be able to share some

34:03
of these wrestling cuz I think it's common you know yeah I think in in our

34:08
Dynamic I guess the thing that I was sort of referencing earlier is that growing up I was the youngest I mean it

34:14
was just me and my sister so Holly yes Holly exactly there's no

34:22
mistleto I will remember her name at Christmas no doubt good good um but yeah

34:28
so it's because we were so close in age and there's just two of us the younger older thing was a little bit different

34:35
than maybe normal I don't know but how so uh well I don't I don't feel like uh

34:40
I don't like a lot of those younger older Dynamics I feel like I have some of the older and some of the younger

34:46
ones oh wow okay in terms of things doesn't matter but in growing up I

34:51
definitely was the youngest and that you know but I don't remember being treated like the way we treat my son who was the

34:58
youngest who kind of gets out of doing a lot of stuff okay it wasn't that way it

35:03
was basically everything was kind of split between me and my sister obviously you know we were only 13 months apart so

35:09
okay yeah you know it's not like I was the baby baby of the family but the point is and when it comes to roles you

35:16
know I definitely was the youngest of the whole family four of us right sure and so for the longest time it was

35:23
natural to kind of fall into that role of being the youngest and kind of

35:29
just going with the flow and um kind of just I don't know almost being lazy like

35:37
you know and as I've gotten older recognizing like you know that I need to contribute

35:44
obviously but also um again with the thing with Megan is just her seeing me

35:50
be change and grow and and become you know the kind of husband and dad that I

35:55
need to be and then then to kind of settle back into that those roles is

36:01
just it's not acceptable you know and not only that it ends up leaving her kind of exposed is the way she feels you

36:08
know what I mean where she's not doesn't quite feel like I'm the same Ally you know kind like what you were describing

36:13
earlier where you kind of slide back into the roles but maybe the spouse who wasn't grow didn't grow up in that is

36:19
now kind of out on the edge you know yeah and so that Dynamic has happened many times in the past and you know it's

36:26
still I don't I I wouldn't say it's one we struggle with anymore I think by this time by this point we're we're more

36:34
cohesive than than that family so it's I'm more likely to be um kind of on her

36:40
side but that the struggle then becomes okay and now I see it how you see it and now I have to work through this where

36:47
it's much easier to just kind of slide over there and not see what you know and like not have to address the be

36:54
comfortable yeah exactly yeah yeah so I think that's probably the best word to use actually is to say it's less

37:01
comfortable now because I don't have to be more right sure in in a good way it's

37:08
it's important but um I I think that's where it it becomes a little challenging

37:14
and it's not quite as relaxing as you like as you'd like it to be or whatever just cuz you're having to be yeah uh not

37:22
as comfortable okay um and you know I you know I think we talked about

37:29
differentiated like that takes work like you said that even that balance that takes work all of these things they take

37:36
intentional effort and without that intentional effort is when you kind of slide back in sure and that intentional

37:43
effort can be uh fatiguing right yeah um to just be kind of always looking and

37:49
always paying attention and always trying to be on your best behavior and always trying to not do the thing you

37:56
would do unless it's the right thing and be like is yeah it's fine uh so yeah it can be very fatiguing

38:04
I think and but also like I said it is there's also that kind of nostalgic

38:10
beautiful kind of come together where it's just so nice to see everyone it's nice to catch up and it's nice to for

38:18
everyone to have an opportunity to catch up see my kids you know showing off different things that they've done or

38:24
their in our our house or whatever you know yeah so I don't know

38:30
it's there's a lot to say I don't know what but but part of that is I'm hearing

38:36
it it's like you have to have different conversations in that process yeah

38:42
because as you initially alluded to you know differentiation and the ability to

38:48
build boundaries you know we have to establish new boundaries sometimes and I

38:54
think that that can be the uncomfortable part opposed to the comfortable part it's

39:00
like no things have to be redefined and we're going to have to have you know some difficult conversations or you know

39:08
and I think that's part of that healthy process yeah and I think the older I get

39:13
the more I recognize too to just

39:19
change in those circumstances and not have those healthy conversations is

39:26
produces other healthy Dynamic so you're now not meeting the expectations of your those family

39:33
members or whatever and so now there's some Schism there sure because I'm

39:39
changing but and I you know I'm becoming differentiated I'm not allowing you to put me in those roles or I'm not

39:45
allowing myself to slide into those roles MH but it's like but you're different and you're not the say you

39:52
know like are you you know are you cranky are you whatever I don't know right all various things and I recognize

39:59
that sometime almost every time change requires those conversations sure to be

40:07
able to say hey it used to be this way now it's this way yeah and I I you know I don't I don't I'm not willing to slide

40:14
into that comfort zone at the expense of these things you know and so those

40:19
conversations like you said again can be uncomfortable they can be fatiguing they can be you know yeah U but I do think

40:26
it's important to have them and I think if you have you know kind of difficult family Dynamics partly because you're

40:35
trying to stay differentiated part of what might make that easier hopefully in future years is

40:42
having some healthy conversations in love to say sure hey I want to be this

40:48
way now you know yeah and in in my life outside of this environment I'm I'm

40:53
getting there like I'm Different you I am this way mhm but when I come here you

40:59
know there's this expectation that I put on myself that I kind of fall into these roles and I'm not comfortable in that

41:05
role anymore yeah you know I don't know who you have to have those conversations with it might have to be everybody I

41:10
don't know but uh as uncomfortable as that is there's a greater chance of you

41:17
know yeah the next season being you know yeah I don't know no I and I think you

41:23
bring up a great point because I think at times we can put a lot of pressure on the

41:30
holiday to you know re reconnect and yet it can it can go south

41:39
because we haven't necessarily made an intentional opportunity to kind of stay connected throughout the year you know

41:46
and I think part of that being able to stay connected is yeah I desire to know

41:52
and I and therefore I do know you you know I know know what's going on

41:58
with you throughout the year as we've stayed connected so therefore when we're able to come back together it's not like

42:06
oh you're so different you know because we've had this we've had conversations

42:12
before I understand I understand where you are politically even you know some

42:18
of those Dynamics are difficult or can create you know the you know um disagreements between family members you

42:25
know it's like okay yeah I'm going in knowing where you know my parents my brother you know other nieces nephews

42:31
you know where they stand politically and so forth because we've even had those conversations prior to you know or

42:37
you know what's going on in their life to where it's like okay yeah we're

42:43
that's going to be a part of our conversation you know coming into this holiday and I think it's you know it's

42:50
tough if I you know if you're in a a family where it's like we don't

42:56
necessarily m maintain a connectedness and yet we want to get together in the H get everybody together in the holidays

43:02
it can be tough yeah and I think you know we have to be intentional have to be but I think it's most helpful you

43:10
know when we're able to be intentional about really staying connected and I think that can add to that desire to be

43:20
together around the holiday and it minimizes what can be dread for some families it's like you know I don't

43:27
really like that person why would I want to go spend Christmas with that person but yet if I've maintained a

43:35
relationship and I've you know and that you know it's been reciprocal for the most part I'm caring about them they're

43:41
caring about me you know then it's like I look forward to you know being able to

43:47
have some face- Toof face time and that's my perspective you know cuz it's like you know I just don't see I mean we

43:53
see our families of not often you know but routinely I'll say and you know so

43:59
when we're able to give those hugs and join together yeah it's it's good in that dynamic because there's still a

44:06
connectedness you know of being able to touch base on a you know a routine basis

44:12
I'll say yeah yeah and I think I think that's a great point and I think I think

44:19
when and where you can Embrace those opportunities um it's a healthy thing to

44:26
do because yeah like me and my sister we didn't grow up particularly close which

44:32
is ironic cuz we were again close in age and kind of shared all responsibilities

44:38
and but for some reason we just never quite had a bond you know uh it was just

44:43
kind of like you know she did her thing I did my thing and occasionally they were in the same place but it's I don't

44:50
know we just didn't really have a bond and it stayed that way pretty much through our adult years until I want to

44:57
say a few years ago and um I don't remember it might have been her initiate

45:02
I can't remember who initiated but we just started having conversations about why don't we have this Bond and what can we do to oh wow to rectify this you know

45:10
how can we and we had to work through some like baggage sure from years of

45:16
just not really having a connection and kind of perception issues from both

45:21
sides of things and like it took a little bit of effort but we both wanted to do that effort and we wanted the

45:28
result of a bond and and a closer relationship between our two families

45:33
because I mean our families have always gotten along really well and even when

45:40
uh her and my brother-in-law Phil like brother-in-law her brother-in-law Phil was one of my best friends in high

45:47
school few years older than me he was kind of like a mentor SL friend of mine

45:52
and then I was his best man in our W their wedding oh nice and then when me and Megan got married

45:58
he was my best man so you know when they were engaged and everything I hung out

46:04
with them uhhuh but it was Phil you know sure my brother-in-law and then when they got married like I would go over

46:10
there and then me and Megan we would hang out at their house and just have a good time so we always had a good

46:15
relationship in that it was just me and Holly for some reason my sister who didn't quite have that Bond uh but Megan

46:23
and Holly get get along really well me and Phil really well and then as our kids started being born you know Noel

46:30
was the oldest um and so she she was there several years before and so she was kind of our you know our niece she

46:37
kind of got the baby thing and then uh Mia and rean were both born within s

46:43
days I want to say so w they started having cids we started having kids and they kind of aligned in a lot of ways

46:48
age-wise and so the connection just continued to grow but again it was just me and Holly were kind of missing that

46:54
connection um so we're like we want to continue to build this bond with our

47:00
families but we want it to be more regular and more intentional and part of that you know is going to be healing

47:07
some of these wounds and or working to build that relationship that we never truly tried to build sure you know um

47:16
and so that's been awesome just as we've grown closer and we've had really good convers it's to the point where she and

47:22
I will call each other sometimes and talk about stuff it's like to me that was not part of the equation ever that

47:29
was never going to be a thing sure yet now it is know and where you know other families is like you don't call your

47:35
sister like or you know whatever and yeah um so yeah it's been cool to have that and so I guess I say all that to

47:42
say if you have relationships in your family that you believe are worth that

47:48
effort and we are additive to your life or should be additive I think is worth

47:55
working on but I also think there are times to say it's okay to not engage

48:01
this person throughout the year and just let the holidays be what they're going to be sure because not every

48:06
relationship is going to be additive there's going to be some unhealthy dynamics that aren't worth hashing out

48:13
maybe and also you only have so many connection spots right you know yes we

48:20
use the Lego you know I've heard that illustration some of us are eight piece

48:25
Lego some of us are you know whatever those Big Flats right you just stick every you know they can connect with

48:32
hundreds of people some of us are just the little one you know what I'm saying and so we

48:37
all have our we have a finite amount of connectors MH and so you have to

48:43
determine if you're in a completely different geographic region trying to build roots in that region it makes

48:49
sense that your connectors start to fill up in that region and there's fewer left for you know second Cousin Eddie sure

48:58
right where maybe growing up you were close but now it's like not really and I haven't talked to him and I don't know

49:04
so I guess there's some healthy you know intentions intentional decisions that

49:10
need to happen in your family relationships and even recognizing as people grow and change and morph maybe

49:17
who they're changing and growing into isn't necessarily someone you want to align your life with is that bad I I

49:24
don't think so I think it's naturally part of of growth and change and kind of

49:29
that yeah that natural family systems where you start to move the centrality

49:35
of your family into kind of a different core you know yeah and I think in some

49:40
cases even that you bring up a good point in that you know as far as you know the ability to main contact with

49:47
everybody I think there are also people who I may not have been in contact with

49:53
for years that I can fall right back into that same you know routine you know it's like I have you know college friend

50:00
Dean I haven't talked with him in years you know but at the same time you know there's no doubt in my mind it's I can

50:08
catch my brother is that we don't always talk but you know my brother's another one it's like we can it's like yeah we

50:13
can fall right back in and you know we don't have to maintain that all the time but yet there's always an opportunity to

50:20
be able to catch up real quick and just be you

50:25
know glad to have that time together you know and I I think of those people you

50:30
know that come to mind that are just yeah I may not have talked with them

50:36
there there there's a I'm just thinking of a skit that came to mind I forget I think it was uh who's this the show with

50:43
Tim Allen um that he did later the after that was it last man standing I actually

50:49
don't know okay but he talks about you know difference between friends for him and friends for his wife you know and

50:54
that kind of thing comes to mind how you know sometimes there's friends that you have that you haven't had to have talked

51:01
with for years but yet you know they're your friend you know so yeah that's part of a skip but part of a show but that

51:08
just came to mind and those types of people I imagine hold their expectations of you

51:13
Loosely oh sure and that's why it's easy to catch right it's easy to kind of fall back in and have a good catchup

51:20
conversation is they're not expecting you to fall into that old role there sure they're happy for anything

51:26
something your core that they can that they uh bond with sure that doesn't need

51:33
the outer stuff to stay the same sure you know what I mean I do think there's something about you know certain people

51:39
where there's just a core bonding that yep that can occur there that is that no

51:44
it makes sense and typ I would say in in a lot of cases those people aren't always necessarily going to be family

51:50
members right yeah no because I think family members the way kind of the outer

51:57
version of you fits into this mold sure and when that changes the mold it breaks

52:03
right like so now it's like well who's going to play that role sure you know that that it messes up the mold so I

52:10
definitely think you're right in that and I think that's been you know if I when I mentioned my brother I think

52:15
that's been a difference too you know when kind of like with your sister when that mold of who I was you know as a

52:24
younger SI sibling kind of broke you know then our relationship was able

52:30
to be developed you know from that and that's kudos to him for being able to say you know I don't need to stuff him

52:36
into that younger brother role and right so oh yeah yeah yeah no doubt

52:43
yeah cuz I think that can be yeah it's just yeah it can be hard on all sides right

52:49
sure yeah you like you you maybe would want you know that person in your life

52:56
to stay where they were because that represented a certain amount of comfort or or um stability and when they shift

53:03
it's like no get back over there so I can feel stable again or whatever I think there's some of that that that can

53:09
go on too and again can happen without that when you're not doing the

53:14
intentional thing right so in other words when you slide back into ruts you're not trying to force your sibling

53:21
back into their roles you just do it because you're in the Rut sure does that make sense yeah where some

53:28
intentionality cuz we're mostly we're talking about from our you know Central worldview being me so how everyone

53:34
reacts to me but the reality is that's not how life Works sure right and so you

53:40
your sister your your brother like they have a central Universe of them and

53:46
you're you know how you engage with them matters too and there's a very good

53:51
chance that all these things we're talking about like you're the bad guy right I'm the bad guy I gotta I'm

53:57
shoving them trying to shove them back into that role that I think they belong in and again maybe because I'm in an

54:03
unhealthy place because I ran out I got you I ran out of the ability to be the

54:08
right kind of Justin and now I'm kind of falling into my ruts of being whatever

54:14
it is and now I'm trying to shove you back you know what I mean yeah so I think it's important to think about this

54:19
from both angles there to recognize that you know your parents too like there's

54:26
some comfort in their family coming together and kind of fitting into this mold and there's this comfort and

54:31
stability and when that mold breaks that can represent um that can be a painful

54:38
moment for parents to see that what they built is no longer a thing mhm and it

54:44
can be really good but it might not feel that way sure right might feel like what

54:50
they worked for mhm is gone sure when the reality is it's not gone it's just

54:56
change shape ideally good ways you know yeah that potential is there yeah yeah

55:03
and if not if I can see let's say the potential is there or

55:09
let's let's say things change for the worst in some cases well you can't shove

55:14
it back into you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube so how are you going to deal with the mess on the counter well you got to figure out how

55:21
to be a new kind of mom or dad in this situation right yeah that can accept that can love that can Embrace sure yeah

55:29
I don't that's I don't know I'm not there

55:35
yet that will be that'll be another podcast yes yes yeah we need to have

55:41
some parents of adults uh you know adults with kids there you go we say that there you go have them tell us how

55:48
to do it there you go well Justin I'm glad you had a good holiday you too Mark yeah yeah yeah in

55:56
the books another one in the books looking forward to what lies ahead for 2023 that's right it's going to be hard

56:03
to remember that to say that you know the first month it's always 2022 I mean

56:08
I haven't had to write a check yet you know it's like you thankfully do we do those less and less yeah but that's

56:15
always the big one this is how I see [Music]

56:22
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