0:00
[Music] how are you Mr Mark I am well yes indeed

0:09
Good Feeling uh a little bit busy but like you say it is it is well mhm I am

0:16
good yeah we uh go ahead you're no you're set we were discussing kombucha

0:22
this morning yes indeed Cuz Mr Mark got me congratulations yes thank you he got

0:28
me started Brewing my own quiet time Kucha and I and as a as a sample yes

0:34
it's nice job very good thank you thank you yeah it's really uh I would say

0:42
cathartic oh wow yeah yeah that may be overstated but slightly enjoyable I

0:49
guess yeah where cathartic feels more therapeutic maybe yeah but there's a point where maybe that's true it offers

0:55
you a sense of relaxation or just kind of a mind fulness to be able to kind of

1:02
do a thing that is different and [Music]

1:11
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:18
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

1:23
thoughtful [Music] conversations and I've started so this

1:29
is is my second week of bottling so you know it's oh cool um yeah so I've been

1:35
doing the flavors Mark suggested raspberry ginger there you go but I also did a few raspberry lemon also very good

1:44
almost you know very lemon yeah yeah yeah I bet for the amount of lemon I put in it was surprising yeah um and I

1:52
started Googling like all these other flavors and I got a bunch of oh there's a bunch fun ideas yeah oh yeah sure yeah

1:59
yeah so thank you Mark thanks for turning me on to that it is a weird hobby I hear you the scobby thing man if

2:05
you don't if you don't know look it up um or or if you need one let us know I

2:11
was going to say yeah if you need one you want to start your own kabuchi let us know we can hook you up with a scobby

2:17
and the syrup to start it all yeah yeah absolutely it's really crazy and cool

2:22
that that's a thing and and the neat part of it is it's like you can make a bunch yeah for very little expense in

2:31
comparison if you're really a Kucha consumer yeah yeah you can you can you

2:37
can make six bottles for what one would cost yeah you know if you're basically

2:42
buying it retail that kind of thing yeah or maybe more well I guess I mean it

2:47
would depend on the flavorings you use and if you count you know the cost of each teab bag and that kind of thing but

2:53
yeah well you buy those tea bags in bulk and they get real cheap yeah no there's no doubt there but like you say I mean

3:00
you know and and granted even the flavorings that you think of you know you can probably get two batches out of

3:06
those you know even raspberries you know yeah it's not like they don't cost you anything but that's right yeah yeah it's

3:13
not and I also in my learnings you know you can use frozen fruits so then it's

3:18
going to last and you know cheaper too um the key they said is just make sure it's th before you put it in but sure

3:25
but that that yeah so then your expense goes down even more I think true that very it's very it's very cool yeah well

3:32
congratulations on your first your first batch it's got to be kind of a rewarding experience especially and and I think

3:39
that it's neat you know in that process we I think in some ways as a culture we don't wait for much

3:45
anymore like I had to wait a a week right yeah well two well two totally you

3:52
wouldn't have to wait two weeks but yeah for the for the uh carbonation we three

3:57
days is or whatever exactly you're at least 10 days give or take yeah so that was uh that was tough yeah I was like I

4:04
want to really want to try it but I also did cuz it looked weird and gross I'm like I'm just I'm not too excited about

4:12
it but I also it was uh yeah anyway uh good times and then oh I used home my

4:18
homegrown Ginger cuz I have some ginger plant out there and um so that's also fun just kind of using your own so that

4:24
that also saves on the the cost right you're using your own stuff exactly yeah

4:29
I got some lemons about to be ripe so I'll be using those yeah so yeah that's what this episode's about

4:37
kombucha we've done some muscadine as well with just the grapes and that's yeah it's a very sweet good idea yeah

4:43
put some ginger in with that to add a little tartness but yeah just just the muscadines themselves made it very sweet

4:49
I bet yeah yeah I'm not a a sweet sweet person if it tastes like Kool-Aid I'm not a big fan you know don't drink the

4:56
Kool-Aid see I feel like mine kind of tastes like Kool-Aid and I but it's a good Kool-Aid it is a good Koolaid yeah

5:02
Ginger does kind of help moderate the yeah yeah so when you think of other things that take a process of time yes

5:10
that's very well you know things that are very difficult to do instantly what comes to

5:17
mind uh it's funny because Mark bass's really

5:22
wonderful segueway leading question I know what the topic is and uh so I know

5:28
that's the answer yeah no no I'm not I'm not asking for that answer I'm honestly

5:33
asking this happens very fairly regularly I'm like I gotta think of an answer that I would try and think of

5:41
anyway can you think of anything one more time ask the question when you think of things that take time and you

5:47
can't get away are help you know that's something that's a process of time it takes a process of time you know what

5:55
comes to mind well you know it goes it reminds me of our planting Things episode we talked a lot about growing

6:02
things grow growth takes time seeds grow generally yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a

6:10
that's a good example I also think um prayer answers to prayer okay often

6:18
you know sure we have to wait yeah at times to see yeah the fruition either of

6:25
of prayer or answers to prayer or you know or you know clarity in Direction

6:31
yeah making jokes a lot of times that um she'll pray about something and then say

6:36
all right now what do you want me to do and then you know she'll kind of uh try and take on the job of of doing the work

6:43
of doing yeah versus being yeah rather than waiting yeah yeah so yeah and I I

6:49
relate to that very much too sure the best prayers is the ones where you you

6:54
ask for you know help and you ask for direction or whatever and then you just wait that I find in my life those are

7:01
the best but they're also much harder difficult just going all right I think I

7:06
have the game plan God thanks exactly you know yeah I think parenting is a matter of time yeah you know it's like

7:15
yeah it's kind of like an investment right yeah in some ways I mean of course you can become a parent not that you

7:21
become a parent well you can become a you become a parent instantly you know

7:26
in some ways but yet you still have to wait N9 months for the you know for a

7:32
child to arrive you know that kind that's longer than my one week for kombucha that's for sure sure is that

7:38
process takes a lot longer all right speaking of a parent a parent is this obvious to see is that what you mean by

7:45
a parent dad joke for okay go for it when does a joke become a dad joke when

7:51
a dad tells it no oh when the joke becomes apparent ah I hear you yes yes

7:58
the the when you said the word apparent I should have I should have I should have yes but that's a good dad joke yes

8:06
I think Morgan and her small group shared that with me so I'm very very thankful for her sure shout out to

8:11
Morgan there you go yeah yes anyway other things that take a process of time

8:18
yeah so do you want to say the thing that oh completely up to you I have no

8:24
issues I want go ahead okay and I and I think I want to see how you I want to see you connected

8:30
oh well the reality of it is I think forgiveness is also you know something

8:35
that we can offer you know this uh a you

8:41
know instantaneous thing but at times I also think it becomes a process of time

8:47
to where I think sometimes depending on the level of hurt you know forgiveness

8:53
can be you know a matter of having to revisit that desire over and over again

9:02
in such a way that says yeah I I've forgiven this person but at the same

9:09
time kind of like that prayer you were talking about I have to kind of come back to God again on that issue because

9:17
it's like and I and I think it's important in the process of talking

9:22
about forgiveness to recognize the difference um between forgiving and

9:28
forgetting yeah you know I think we can tend to get those two confused yeah to the point of

9:36
and I think people struggle with well have I really forgiven this person or it keeps coming up in my mind yeah yeah

9:45
yeah this is this is going to be a good topic um it's actually a a great like uh

9:50
book end to the apology Styles right uh oh sure we were trying to figure out if we did this topic before we we tend to

9:58
look through our list before we commit to a topic cuz at this point 80 some in it's like you know we could have a part

10:05
two and not know it right but um but yeah we hadn't done forgiveness but as you were just talking I was like oh

10:11
right we talked about apology though which is not the same that is the that's

10:16
again it's like the book end right so this will be I would encourage you to listen to that one because I think this will uh bookend that one pretty nicely

10:23
but um yeah I think to forgiveness sometimes can take time on the receiving

10:29
end which is kind of goes into the apology love you know apology Styles thing where your version of forgiveness

10:37
um you might expect a type of response um you know immediately sure

10:44
that you might not get depending on how someone apologies apologies apologizes

10:51
or whatever I don't know yeah yeah I don't know and I and I think you know the ability to

10:58
forgive you know isn't necessarily I think sometimes we can get

11:03
it confused when uh forgiveness isn't necessarily reciprocal yeah I ask you to

11:10
forgive me and yet just because I'm in that space I'm in that awareness that I

11:16
need to ask for your forgiveness that doesn't mean you're in the same space of offering that at the moment yeah and

11:22
that can be a difficult Dynamic I think forgiveness is something like most

11:27
things that we talk about or you know just most things that takes practice to get good at right and um if you're if

11:37
you tend to resist forgiveness or you know tend to you know stick to the kind of the resentment side of things or

11:43
whatever holding a grudge right and you maybe you maybe you're starting to transition to I want to be more

11:49
forgiving or whatever you might have some expectations about what forgiveness looks like sure and I think what you

11:56
just described was probably one where you would assum well if I'm going to stoop this low you know and I'm going to

12:02
forgive like and I'm I'm going to go there yeah and I better Dar and receive

12:07
it but you know they forgive me for my stuff or what do you hear there when

12:13
Pride yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think go ahead that's the antithesis right of

12:19
sure forgiveness I would say but go ahead no that's exactly what because I think you know so often that that desire

12:26
or the willingness if you will to humble ourselves to the point of asking for

12:31
forgiveness is like you say the antidote if you will to Pride yeah because it's

12:36
like you know we can easily say well I was justified or we can you know we can

12:41
we can talk about the things that I that you did that that quote unquote made me do that type thing you know and I that's

12:50
where I was definitely thinking about it from that aspect of you know what does what does forgiveness look like and how

12:57
do we do it well well we uh I recently heard a teaching on this by our good

13:02
friend Karen and um she said and I agree that

13:08
forgiveness um the the enemy to forgiveness is pride whether you're trying to give forgiveness or request it

13:15
right sure when you're trying to forgive someone your in natural desires like we

13:21
were I just saying like to have that resentment to say you know they don't deserve forgiveness so why should I give

13:27
it kind of thing that that's that Pride or vice versa like well that's it's

13:33
their fault too why should I apologize that kind of thing and I think it's the enemy of forgiveness I'm in both

13:38
directions prior but yes yeah yeah um in Celebrate Recovery

13:46
we have a step called am men's mhm and um it's essentially a forgiveness step

13:52
um the desires you know real quick breakdown of the steps simplified

13:58
version like you kind of enter the program and we work through some denial and some powerless steps to kind of

14:03
figure out like I don't have it I need help MH I have bigger problems than I

14:08
realize that kind of thing and then we move into kind of some hope and higher

14:13
power in this idea that okay now that I recognize I don't have what it takes there is something that does and it's

14:19
called My higher power in Jesus Christ you know and and in that process we then enter into what we call the inventory

14:25
process where all right now that we know we have something above ourselves I can help us through this you know um oh and

14:31
then there's also a development of community step that says all right start building a team of accountability Partners or sponsor you know that kind

14:38
of thing and then you start working through your inventory which is basically you know dig up all the dirty

14:44
laundry from your your past you know unroll all the rugs you swept stuff

14:49
under you know open all the closet doors open all the closet doors yeah peel back the Band-Aids that got festering wounds

14:55
in them you like do all the things uh and and do you know do it as thorough a

15:01
job as you can kind of digging all that stuff up and get it written down in a

15:07
clear way you know systematically we have this systematic approach then you move into the fifth step which is giving

15:14
your inventory to someone else which sounds appalling and if if you've never heard of recovery and kind of the steps

15:19
you might go why would you do that you know even the the inventory part like why would you go back and dig up old

15:25
stuff you know um just trust me s but after you

15:31
get to that you know you kind of as you give your uh inventory you start to process your part in in these things

15:39
because in almost everything you know maybe abuse being uh the exception

15:45
sometimes he accept sometimes right depending on which side of the abuse you were on right but as as someone who's

15:51
abused U I've definitely heard uh testimonies from people who admitted that they were asking for now don't this

15:58
is a this is a scary thing to say right because you never want to put the victim in a place of blame but I'm just saying

16:04
I've heard people acknowledge their side in that sure and there's healing that comes from that um anyway I don't even

16:11
want to say that I feel like that's that's a I hear where you come from but anyway as you process through all these

16:16
things you get to a place of okay it's a men's time it's time for me to make the

16:21
apologies I need to make and give forgiveness I need to forgive and um so

16:27
that's where that teaching we recent re recently heard was from M um one of

16:34
my favorite aspects to that teaching and that principle mhm is we say not for

16:40
them sure and it's just one little sentence we say it it gets included in

16:45
the material and every time that taught and it means so much is this idea that

16:50
when I ask for forgiveness or you know when I apologize apologizing and asking for

16:56
forgiveness aren't exactly the same thing right I hear you um I mean they

17:01
can be but I'm saying like they can be one in the same but they don't have to be correct yeah so uh kind of the amend

17:08
step is more focused on the apology than the asking for for in other words I'm not asking anything from you I'm doing

17:16
this for my side of the street clean up my side of the street and so I'm going to apologize and take full ownership and

17:21
responsibility of my part kind of a confession if you will yeah that's a good way to put it yeah um but in a way

17:28
that does ask for forgiveness but doesn't expect it sure um and it's the

17:33
idea is and we say not for them it means when I go to a apologize I'm not trying to make you better sure because that's

17:41
the tendency that's the desire and again if you're not good at this whole thing of amends that would be your kind of

17:48
first expectation is that this is going to make them feel better and they'll forgive me and we'll have you know this

17:55
magical moment and we're it's really trying to set up this idea that and a

18:00
lot of times when you're in recovery the people you heard that's one little apology you know it maybe very heartfelt

18:07
right sure uh is isn't necessarily going to release all the binds you know or you

18:12
know repair all the broken strands and the relationship that you've caused over

18:18
the years and whatever and I think that's the difficult part to see it's like you know yes you're you're offering

18:24
this am men but it's like you've done this for years and I'm supposed to just forgive you because now you've come to

18:31
recognize it and this heart has been you know this hurt has been in inflicted

18:37
upon me for a long time you know so yeah being able to recognize that yeah that

18:42
forgiveness peace can be a process of time if we're looking at it in a

18:48
reciprocal Manner and yet you know there is a there is a freedom there is a I won't I don't

18:56
like the word instantaneous necessarily but there is a instantaneous Dynamic to being able to ask forgiveness you know

19:04
that is is part of that process but it's not giving it yeah yeah it doesn't make it necessarily immediate in a reciprocal

19:12
manner yeah that's good I like yeah I like what you're saying because there's

19:17
two benefits there's the short term and the long term because in most cases but

19:23
you know again the the the material and the the process would explain to you

19:29
sometimes you won't get the short term and so you shouldn't expect that that's kind of what the KN for them is is right

19:35
but there's still if you're doing it for the right reasons a certain release that can happen in your own

19:42
Integrity I I'm make making this thing right and this is where it starts you

19:48
know yeah but long term is this is where it starts right yeah um especially if it's someone that's actively in your

19:54
life there now there might be amends you make to someone that's kind of an impassive Ty of and it's it's a

20:01
oneandone deal and they're like okay all right I hear you no problem dude they

20:07
they're like it doesn't matter to them but it matter to you and that's why you do it you know right but for most people

20:12
it's a short term all right I started the journey you know with with with the process but yeah like you said at the

20:18
very beginning time that cuz like again like you said they're they're thinking

20:25
about all the times that we messed up and all the the the ways and so it's

20:30
going to take time to prove that's not the person I am anymore sure and that's true of all forgiveness in all you know

20:38
asking for forgiveness whether you're in recovery or not like it doesn't mean a whole lot if your intention is not to

20:45
change sure right yeah in fact it can actually Rel see that I think that is a

20:51
part of forgiveness you know um that there is there is also this aspect of

20:59
turning away from that action that I had before you know and that's another step

21:06
in the process is that turning you know that says okay yeah you can see that my

21:13
desire to be forgiven as heartfelt because I'm really making a conscious effort not to interact in that way

21:20
anymore yeah not that I might not have to ask forgiveness again when I slip or

21:25
if I slip I should say but at the same time that you can see that there's a

21:32
sincerity that says yeah I'm I'm really working to create a change here and I'm

21:40
recognizing and I think that there again that becomes part of humility that ability to say okay yep I did that thing

21:48
again and I realize it has an impact on you and you know and I think that I

21:54
think that's what makes it I think that's when scripture talks about you know well how many time should we forgive someone you know because I think

22:02
there is this process that wants to say yeah well you know yeah you ask for you

22:08
ask me for forgiveness every time you're sorry you know yeah and I think we can

22:13
kind of you know that the word can get you know overused in such a way that you

22:20
know questions the sincerity of the action so yeah it's just a which could

22:27
go to the apology styles again like sure yeah yeah but yeah uh what was that

22:34
quote you had a quote Oh I did have a quote from more of our uh Mark is doing

22:39
a very rare thing I am I'm looking looking at his phone in the midst of I

22:44
is it fair usually that's my uh is it fair to say this would be a first I believe so it'd be pretty close either

22:52
way yeah usually his phone's like in his truck or something ruger's making phone

23:00
exactly but uh this is from Ruth uh Ruth Ruth Bel Graham said a happy marriage is

23:07
the union of two forgivers if you truly want Christ at

23:12
the center of your marriage forgiveness must be ready and waiting that's good

23:18
yeah that was shared by someone in our small group and I and I and I was thinking about it in that quoting our

23:24
quoters in our small group there you go Ruth grah Bell indirectly yeah yeah Ruth

23:29
Bell Graham I guess is the way yeah but either way someone related to Jimmy no

23:38
not Jim yeah Jimmy Graham Billy Graham Billy Graham Billy Graham sorry Billy Jimmy see I get Jimmy mixed up with

23:44
Billy sometimes Jimmy and our small group because he just reminds me of Billy yeah Billy

23:50
Graham he's a preacher he's a preacher yeah but yeah that that as I like that

23:56
because I've always heard you know the marriages um you know the best marriages are two servants in love and you know to

24:04
think about it two forgivers in love because you you realize I mean I realize

24:09
in a lot of cases you're married to a human being an imperfect person yeah so

24:15
to recognize that yeah there won't be any flaws in our that's the those

24:23
expectations are too high yeah so to be able to recognize at times that you I'm

24:28
going to make mistakes so and you're going to make mistakes so therefore you

24:34
know this this desire to be a forgiver helps me extend Grace you know to you

24:42
and recognize I need your grace you know at times when I when I'm the one that

24:47
you know made the mistake type thing and I like that context because you think about it if if humility is the basis of

24:58
forgiveness or the desire it keeps Pride from like creating that division because

25:05
what you when you think about what Pride does in a relationship that's that's basically all

25:11
it does is create division yep you know and I think about that in that context you know that Satan's desire is to

25:18
divide and conquer type thing you know and I think pride is that one of those

25:23
one of those tools that he can use to create that division and you know and

25:31
therefore CU I think you know the I think we can tend to think about forgiveness as something like you know

25:39
you know in a in a relationship at times you know we can think about well you know I'm sorry I didn't you know I

25:45
spattered toothpaste on the mirror you know but in reality there's a lot of

25:52
deeper things that are far more difficult to forgive when we think of you know infidelity or you know just

25:59
those those deeper things of the heart it's like you there is that part of us that

26:06
would if we rustle with that or you know if we have rustled with that it's like

26:11
okay what does that forgiveness look like and how do I offer that you know in

26:18
the midst of unfaithfulness or you know you know

26:24
deception or lies or you know those kind of things because you you you have a choice MH at

26:32
that moment and it's like if if I if I forgive I'm actually putting myself back

26:41
in a vulnerable position again yeah and yet I think you know we and I think we

26:47
have talked about vulnerability before you know and the power of it yeah but

26:52
yet in our culture that's not necessarily something that's viewed as valuable right it's also complated with

27:00
weakness which sure I think we talked about in that episode that sometimes if

27:06
you learn to be vulnerable in you know a certain way it becomes a form of

27:12
strength yes I believe no doubt you know and so being able to forgive someone and put yourself back in that you know

27:18
vulnerable state of connection again um is a strength that's much stronger than

27:24
not forgiving and you know yeah yeah but it feels much weak you know like you're

27:30
much weaker doubt in some senses that that makes sense but I'm just saying like that's a strength that I I think a

27:36
lot a lot of people maybe never even taste that strength of vulnerability

27:42
sure to be able to say I'm going to in other words when I'm vulnerable I'm not

27:48
um losing a support that I was leaning on right like I can still stand straight

27:53
while being vulnerable sure and that takes I think practice and maybe skill even to to learn that yeah that I can be

28:00
vulnerable without falling over yeah does that make sense and and well I think in some ways it it it helps Define

28:08
a relationship in a healthy manner that basically says you know I'm not dependent upon you I am in I am

28:16
interdependent you know with Christ to be able to have a strength that says okay if you forgive me or you don't

28:23
forgive me I'm still going to be okay and I'm G to you know I can move

28:28
forward you know and I'm okay if even

28:33
I'm okay even if this relationship experience some momentary distance yeah

28:39
because you know we're processing this Dynamic of forgiveness and you know kind of the strength of forgiveness or you

28:47
know that vulnerability piece it reminds me of that that quote what uh forgiveness is like drinking poison and

28:53
expecting somebody else to expecting the rat to die exactly yeah not forgiving

28:59
actually yeah is like drinking poison holding a grudge a a grudge is like drinking poison expecting the rat to die

29:07
or someone else yes yeah and so I think about it and that when you were talking about taste you know that's what kind of

29:14
comes to mind it's like yeah it can be a bitter thing yeah you know but yet there

29:20
is a freedom that's available in that that it can eventually overcome the

29:27
bitterness yeah yeah absolutely and and will yes um well you know if if you

29:33
don't let the pride kind of get back in there exactly work your way back into your previous state or double it cuz

29:40
yeah so that's the thing a lot of times do with forgiveness that's why I saying I think it takes practice sure to get good at it

29:47
because again maybe as you your first few foray into Tru you know like for

29:52
giving a significant thing against you you would have this expectation all right that's behind us here sure you

29:58
know where you know like you said we're imperfect humans and by imperfect we

30:04
have habits yep and those habits tend to surface and hurt others in the same way

30:10
yeah you know over and over like and you know your toothpaste spattered on the the wall right like or on the mirror

30:17
thing I think is a good example of that like that can really you know and like that's just a one example but socks on

30:24
the floor you know whatever it is um it can become this grading thing

30:30
right that becomes bigger and bigger and then other things start getting attached to it or it gets attached to other

30:35
things like you don't care for me because if you did I would see it through things like yeah the toothpaste

30:41
spattered on the mirror you wipe it off the mirror right you just you know it takes no effort clearly it's very clear

30:46
that there you don't care right and and so now I know and that's why you did this other thing too it's cuz you don't

30:53
care right and it starts to build and grow and fester and and then we might come to this come to Jesus moment where

30:59
we say I'm going to forgive him with my good heart and we go forgive him or her

31:04
and say I forgive you for that and I know you're just human and all whatever and and again if you're

31:11
unpracticed they're likely will be this expectation that we've gained new

31:19
ground that's only true on the forgiver side if you mean it right like there's

31:27
not like again not for them there shouldn't be an expectation that that person then is

31:32
going to go man I'm so thankful that they're willing to forgive me for that and I'm really I'm really going to

31:37
change my ways here and start wiping the toothpaste off the mirror whatever um

31:43
that's very unlikely with the first forgiveness session right like they

31:48
you're probably going to find it maybe you'll maybe it'll be clean for a week or two yeah and I think I I I recognize

31:54
or I I it's interesting as you think about that cuz quite often I'll when I'm working with couples I'll you know I'll

32:02
address that you know that process of okay yeah there's been this offense

32:07
whether it's pornography or you know this kind of thing and and and there's this aspect where I I kind of it's

32:14
almost like a gauge for me that basically kind of says like the skill

32:20
level assessment yeah it's like it's it's kind of but I'm actually gauging the willingness of the individual to

32:27
forgive it's like okay and I'm recognizing that I don't want we don't want this to

32:34
happen again but what if it does yeah you know in this process of change

32:40
because it's not a this isn't going to be or likely won't be you know it rarely

32:46
is something a cold turkey quit you know whether it's smoking alcohol you know pornography and I and I think about it

32:53
in that context because not that I'm excusing the behavior at all but yet to basically change a

33:03
cycle you know to to turn that is rarely going to happen in just one instant yeah

33:10
you know we think of when I think of my own mistakes my own failures it's like

33:15
rarely are the times when I failed once I asked for forgiveness and I moved on and was done right not that there wasn't

33:21
a desire to turn and you know and I think it's interesting too because there's

33:26
another Dynamic that I've seen you know in relationship especially where you know like infidelity or you know it's

33:35
very when where infidelity is involved I think it's very important to be able to

33:42
be mindful of who I tell about that because it it's interesting even with

33:47
even with divorce and things like that I've seen where the two individuals you

33:54
know who experience you know husband and wife you know who get divorced their ability to forgive one another is

34:01
far greater than their family's ability to forgive the ex spouse you know that

34:09
that my siblings you know would have a much harder time you know for giving my

34:14
ex spouse and I don't I think that's something that it's always been fascinating to me you know how when

34:22
someone hurts someone who is close to us how difficult that process is to forgive

34:28
when you when when you think about you know yeah someone who hurts your kids or

34:34
someone who hurts you know yeah you know it's just there there's a there's a deeper level there yeah that you know

34:42
it's just it's it's it's fascinating and Powerful at the same time yeah wow a

34:48
good good thought and it's not like you know we it's sometimes we just don't recognize that how far those things go

34:57
right you know the consequences of sin if you will yeah you know we don't recognize how many people are impacted

35:03
and so yeah yeah there's um yeah it makes me think of uh again as as as part

35:11
of my process of recovery and and things that I've learned that one of the things I need to continually process is

35:19
resentment and um and it it's just something I've learned you know it's a it's a weakness of mine to and and I can

35:26
see it almost in a familial way of like being passed down in a sense and various other family members were there's

35:33
there's a kind of a trait ATT tendency towards resentment and and yeah like

35:39
just really I would I would say being hurt by things more than it should be right like

35:46
that's kind of how I would Define the resentment so for me it's about the way I get back to a normal level of

35:53
understanding of how that situation did is processing it with someone else which I've learned over the years of recovery

35:59
or whatever that has to be a very safe environment very safe relationship where there's an understanding between us this

36:05
is never ever meant for you to be on my side you I have no desire for that at

36:11
all what I need is someone to push back on me and say have you considered this

36:16
and you know that kind of thing um because kind of like what you're saying

36:22
like uh there's a danger there in sharing our hurts and our resentments

36:27
with someone else and then them carrying that burden and then me going okay now my burden's lighter I can move on with

36:32
my life but now they're carrying it right it's like now I can forgive my spouse because I told my all my siblings

36:38
and you know I feel better and I'm ready to move onh and they're all left holding

36:44
this baggage you know saying kind of Poison the Well type thing you would prefer to I was thinking about that in

36:50
the context of as you mention and here again I'm I'm curious on your

36:57
perspective because you bring it up from that transgenerational Dynamic of you

37:02
know resentment being handed down how would you say that has affected your

37:09
ability to forgive extend forgiveness in other words do you see that I mean I'm

37:15
not looking for an obvious answer I'm looking for the you know how has

37:20
that well I mean without working on it it makes it way harder to forgive is

37:25
that what you're at I guess that's that would be that would be my thought I I guess I'm just saying that's not

37:32
something that I wrestle with not that I don't have plenty of other things that I do wrestle with but resentment isn't

37:38
necessarily one of those things I find myself on that side jealous well I struggle with jealousy

37:44
so but it's like you know and I guess that's that's why I'm asking the question you know because I'm thinking

37:50
about it in a context of people who wrestle with that resentment to be able to speak with to that I mean I I could

37:58
certainly speak to it um I'll say it makes forgiveness way harder I mean

38:04
cuz it's kind of that toothpaste batter concept that I was saying like when you see that toothpaste batter you associate

38:12
it with a much bigger nefarious you know kind of thing going on um you know so

38:19
you in some ways it's not only the toothpaste but it

38:24
explains why they did that and that and that and that and they just don't

38:32
they just don't care about you well does It Go I mean um like a ruminating type

38:38
thing yes so I've you know there's there's kind of two sides to us our

38:45
emotional side and our brain side I would say you know when it comes to kind of processing things like this and for

38:51
me it's it's definitely the emotional side is the side that's triggered which you know I I I don't I don't like to

38:58
admit that makes me like a you know an emotional man right like but I've just learned that that's true like it's the

39:04
emotions that are triggered most often a sense of insecurity probably is the most

39:09
probably the most triggering one um and so you know all these emotions

39:15
flare up and it starts those emotions trigger my thinking and my thinking about why would they do that and kind of

39:20
processing all these things but at the end of the day being in in CR long enough and seeing just seeing truth play

39:28
out recognizing like there's it's probably not as evil right like more

39:33
than likely they are like me and that they are centered on themselves and the

39:39
actions that are you know the things that are happening as a result of them not necessarily considering me mhm which

39:45
is not the same thing as they don't want me to succeed or they want me to you

39:51
know fail what whatever the thing is you know uh they they don't or they don't like they don't care about you um it

39:58
yeah or even that like I look at you and I don't care it's not that it's more

40:04
like no I'm looking at me and I'm trying to take care of my stuff and I got all these and I don't even mean that in like

40:10
a self-set selfish way I mean like they're work they their life is hard too and they they're F focused on solving

40:16
their own life's problems and they're not necessarily always aware of the fact

40:21
that it's impacting me right sure so there's this brain emotion battle that

40:27
kind of goes back and forth and usually I don't have uh I shouldn't say usually

40:33
I'm getting better at like kind of coming to a resolution but um I've needed for a long time the ability to

40:39
process with someone else and kind of work through it and even just talking through it often will give bring me to a

40:45
a good conclusion of okay it's probably not some evil thing it's probably just

40:50
this and I can forgive that you know what I mean um but the other thing that

40:55
struggle is some who struggles with resentment is that you do all that work

41:01
and it takes you know some effort and then you see the toothpaste patter again and you're you kind of have to do it all

41:08
again I hear you but now you have the tools you have the pattern you can work through all of that and go kind of

41:14
arrive at the same conclusion but then you see it again maybe I was wrong maybe there is something to this they're evil

41:21
you know kind yeah and it's uh that's that that's that time process really the combination of growth and being able to

41:29
forgive and move beyond the resentment yeah yeah but I guess back to very

41:35
beginning of the conversation um forgiveness is ongoing you know and that toothpast

41:42
there's no guarantee that toothpaste is not going to be spattered you know yeah and uh obviously that's a metaphor right

41:49
for whatever the thing is but there's no guarantee that this session of

41:55
forgiveness is going to be the last one so that's part of the process too is recognizing more of that the coming to a

42:02
resolution in my mind that is more pattern-based and saying therefore they

42:07
are there's a good chance that this will happen again but I can understand it

42:12
right does that make sense yeah and I think that's the that's why I was thinking as you were sharing a lot of what you were sharing in the resentment

42:19
has to do with the way that I think about that other person who has offended me yeah and yet I'm also willing to

42:27
recognize on the other half of the resentment is the person who's holding on to it and maybe in some ways

42:36
that I'm not inability is the wrong word but you know that that selfawareness

42:42
I'll call it that basically says well I have this other thing that I do because

42:49
I think in that aspect of resentment I can see myself as elevated yes and I'm

42:56
you know I'm the on the throne who has been offended yeah and I I was thinking about that in that context of you know

43:03
because I think a lot of what we're talking about takes both self-awareness

43:08
and others awareness you know and being able to say okay that's how I think about them but

43:15
wait a second what does that really say about me and what how am I looking at this and what is my advantage in that

43:22
process yeah I'm really glad you said that because I I didn't really make that clear but that's certainly been and I'm

43:29
not accusing you of having it elevated I apologize I would say that's exactly what happens in the flare up right it's

43:36
like this definitely this elevated you know you you mess with my Throne or whatever kind of yeah and I would say

43:42
that what you just described is definitely part of the tool set um to kind of recognize my part in it and how

43:50
could I've contributed to this and is there maybe I'm doing something that hurts them that causes them to do that

43:56
I'm not aware of it and kind of processing through maybe I did maybe I said that a certain way and kind of

44:02
trying to take more of it onto myself and I would even say for a while maybe I

44:07
went too far that way I gotta right where I would take i' be like well it's it's my fault okay I feel better my

44:14
fault and I wouldn't I wouldn't I it wasn't like I was beating myself up about it it just gave me some release in

44:21
the situation okay all right that's fine it's my fault all right good let's move on kind of thing um but again I think I

44:27
that became a crutch too I gotta and it started to become clear like you know it's not always my fault yeah you know

44:34
and having to learn how to forgive when it isn't my fault yes and so that's been

44:39
a journey too you know and now it's and finding that balance if you will and I

44:45
know you know when we do an inventory that kind of thing they encourage you to have a balanced inventory you know it's

44:51
not all about the people that have offended me and it's not all about the people that I have offended it's this

44:56
combin thereof and I think that's helpful in this process of forgiveness

45:01
to be able to recognize that yes there are some people I whether a person asks

45:07
me for forgiveness or not I can extend that you know quite often I'll wrestle

45:13
with that with people you know in session about you know uh you know maybe

45:19
parents or somebody who has passed away you know and I think there's a tremendous power in that ability to be

45:26
able to say yeah you can't talk with that person you can't ask that but you can still extend

45:31
forgiveness you know even even you know postmortem type thing that you know says

45:37
hey yeah this is something that I'm holding on to and it's beneficial for me

45:43
to let go of that yeah even though it will have no effect on that other

45:48
individual whatsoever it had you know yeah one of the things that's in the a

45:54
men's teaching that's super important to I think anytime you talk about forgiveness it's important to talk about

46:00
this that forgiveness is not um excusing someone's Behavior sure and again that's another conflation that happens it's

46:06
like well if I forgive this them then that means it's okay what they did no absolutely doesn't yeah it does not

46:12
they're not the same thing yeah and forgiveness is not condoning or accepting poor Behavior yeah it's saying

46:21
I forgive you it's a very distinct action that's not should not be

46:27
and I think it's interesting even if I may to take that one step further when Jesus was on the cross to be able to say

46:34
you know in his prayer he's basically saying father forgive them for they know not what they do you know in that

46:42
process it's like and sometimes that's that's what those you know small eggan

46:48
like the toothpaste are you know it's like the person doesn't even know it sometimes and we can Harbor that you

46:54
know and we don't want to necessarily say anything to dependent on personality style but yet you know or other time on

47:00
the other end you can nag and nag and you know and it doesn't so it's like you know for and I was that's what reminded

47:06
me of it's like forgive them for they know not what they do and being able to recognize I have some things that I

47:12
don't know that I'm doing to other people as well right you know it's not a

47:18
it's not a nefarious type you know Endeavor on my part to be able to say well yeah I'm more important it's just a

47:26
matter of me being me and sometimes being clueless mhm so yeah yeah yeah

47:33
and yeah there's there's so many directions to go with this I think about

47:38
uh new Leeds too and I think you know going back to what we were saying

47:44
earlier the hard thing there becomes these patterns start to become apparent and again depending on everyone grew up

47:52
in different family situations so when you join together you come in with that baggage and those expectations of this is how families do family right right

48:00
and this person doesn't do family like we do family and therefore they don't care they you know it's like it's so

48:06
easy to quickly conflate that with uh you know they don't love me the way I thought they love me or whatever

48:12
different is wrong yeah yeah and there's just this learning process of

48:18
forgiveness of all these little offenses but also learning where boundar should

48:23
be and where we say you know the toothpaste thing that's something that really bothers me I'd really like you to

48:29
do better there and like have trying to have a boundary there and then when they don't say all right I'll clean it you

48:35
know I don't know it's like it's a this hard balance to figure out what battles are worth fighting and when you I want

48:41
to say you know newly was I think it could be difficult it feels like every battle is worth fighting because every

48:47
battle represents winning or losing the war almost right like well you think about that that how can we be married if

48:54
you do it like that yeah yeah yeah parenting is another well you know you got to pick your battles yeah to that to

49:01
that degree and like you're saying in you know early early marriage Newly Weds

49:06
you know it's like everything can seem like an offense yeah and being able to recognize no that's not the case it's

49:13
just you know two people who grew up differently and I think that's you know coming back again to that quote two

49:19
forgivers in marriage two servants it's like okay yep I hear I you know one

49:25
servant can say I hear you in that process and you're valuable to me and yes I can do something about that you

49:32
know that's a wicked difference between you know what's the big deal for crying out loud get over it yeah you know and I

49:40
think you know that's that's that's the if you know that's that Pride you know

49:45
humility you know difference personified if you will to a certain degree in a

49:51
simplified version of course but yeah you know how do we go through the whole

49:57
thing about forgiveness and not talking about Jesus quote about how many times I for did we I mentioned that earlier but

50:02
seven times seven okay sorry we did me that's how you don't we can't you can't get through it without mentioning we

50:08
already did so we're going to add it twice but yeah this is I love that context of you know someone asking how

50:15
many times I have to forgive someone who offends me seven times he says 70 times

50:21
you know it's kind of this exponential concept of you know just keep for yeah

50:27
yeah and it's there's nothing magical about you know when you reach 77 it's like all right now you can be the hammer

50:35
down that's right that's right yeah it was this idea that whatever you think it is it's way more yeah you know so get

50:42
used to just doing it and stop counting basically and being able to recognize

50:47
that you know it's not ignoring the offense yeah it's it's still being able

50:55
to have the choice that I don't hold on to that resentment that builds while I'm

51:02
keeping track and I think you know it it there is a definite freedom in that ability to

51:08
be able to say okay yeah and and I'm not saying it's as nonchalant you know as

51:13
okay yeah I forgive you because some you know events you

51:19
know you know that's where the time comes in because it's like okay but you don't recognize this has happened before

51:27
you know this is happened you know and and to you know and I guess that's the

51:32
beauty of the life Jesus lived you know it's like he always forgave in the

51:38
process of an additional offense yeah you know this more and more and you know

51:44
it's like that's a that's a real heart dynamic because he recognizes the you

51:50
know the freedom that comes with that because if anybody could have held a a grudge it would be Jesus in that process

51:57
of perfection it's like you know but he didn't and yeah that's a that's

52:03
a a nugget you just you just lost your nugget your nugget fell out of your

52:10
pocket I could see it you had something you were ready to say and I went three

52:15
seconds too long and now you're going to have to go like another 18 hear about it was about

52:22
Jesus in the process of being able to forgive even though he was perfect he

52:28
still forgave and and freedom that comes from forgiveness for the individual

52:33
that's pressure I'm not going to be able to do it okay it'll come back that's all right although we I was going to say

52:38
maybe not in this program but no it was good I'm sure it was I'm sure it was yes

52:47
that's why I was nice job he found it it felt good enough that I was like I don't know if I want to end

52:53
without saying I remember all right so say it now the the the key to

52:58
forgiveness in from Jesus perspective is having a view on you know how much we've

53:04
been forgiven oh sure right and so I I can't really imagine how much more

53:11
difficult it it is to be a forgiving person if you really have this view of

53:17
being on the pedestal or the throne or like you know I'm kind of I'm you know the one human being in this world who

53:23
doesn't do all the bad things you know you think driving and so everyone else is a stupid driver right sure and you

53:31
know that's a funny thing but like we kind of do that like every person in our lives we kind of think you know I'm I'm

53:38
the Pinnacle of integrity and everyone else is kind of although you you might have a few bright lights in the distance

53:44
of people you look at and think well they're probably better than me but like MH I don't know we kind of have this

53:49
idea of I need to be forgiven less because the reasons I do things are obvious and you know I have these wounds

53:57
my intentions are good yeah exactly you you're able to justify you're able to give yourself plenty of forgiveness

54:02
funny you know um depending on what you did now there are some people struggle with forgiveness for themselves for

54:08
various you know I'm not going to go there but that's certainly a thing but what Jesus would speak about was you

54:14
know he gave this parable of this servant who went to this you know his you know the guy who borrowed money from

54:22
right and he said I'm sorry I don't have the money and the guy was pretty upset said well you know I'm going to throw

54:28
you in jail or whatever and he said please you know forgive me and um you

54:34
know I'll make it right or whatever and he said you know what I am going to forgive you and you don't have to make it right I forgive you 100% you don't

54:40
owe me we're good and they moved on with their life well a little bit later that same servant was forgiven that debt and

54:47
it was a large large debt like a life debt type of thing um he had his own

54:54
someone who borrowed money from him or something and it was a small much smaller amount and you know the person

55:00
said I'm sorry I can't pay it and he said you're in trouble and he threw him in jail right and he basically Jesus was

55:06
saying uh and what was the rest of that Parable does he he goes does the original person yeah in other words he

55:13
was kind of like coming out of the temple as it was and then other people who witnessed that Dynamic went and

55:19
reported it to the official that like Joe didn't forgive yeah you know Bill

55:26
because he had and so it got back to the official and the official resumed

55:31
resummoned him and basically said you know you Wicked fool you you know how are you to you know not forgive that

55:38
individual who you know offended you when I forgave you this lifetime of

55:45
indebtedness yeah and basically put all the debt back on him threw him in jail that kind of thing yeah so Jesus that

55:51
was the parable for essentially the amount of forgiveness that you know he has given us for the offenses that we've

55:59
done you know especially if we we've accepted his you know payment for our

56:04
sins sure and he's saying how can you with that debt paid then go and hold

56:10
your spouse that debt for the you know splatter on the mirror right like how

56:17
can you do that when not you've been forgiven this much and I think that's a really important perspective for someone

56:24
like me who struggles with resentment to get back to to say well you know what I messed up too and you know I've been

56:31
forgiven a lot and I not just by Jesus but by my spouse and by you know Mark

56:37
and by whoever right like these people that I tend to hurt with just my normal patterns in life you know um that I

56:44
think I can forgive this thing you know I think that's part one of the tools but yeah I just I felt like it important you

56:51
know I just really want to share that nugget it the one that fell on the floor I picked it back up and dusted it off but nice job finding it rather quickly

56:58
even yeah yeah that was thank you for rounding out the the parable I I was a little fuzzy on the the ending but you

57:05
you nailed it it's all good happy to be here Mark and Justin's version there you go yes yes

57:12
paraphrase yeah right so thanks for sharing on forgiveness Justin yeah yeah

57:17
welcome thanks for bringing the topic not a problem happy to do so yeah this is how we see it

57:26
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