0:04
[Music] we're going yes we are good morning good

0:09
morning how are you I am well it's a weird weird morning for me cuz my my

0:16
phone did not charge and on top of not charging also

0:22
died wow so i' you know I've had it happen before where it didn't quite sit on the wireless charger right oh okay

0:29
because it it does that with conductive charging or whatever and if you don't sit it right sometimes you oh but I've

0:34
never had it also die while charge it while on the charger yeah that does seem like an ironic thing

0:41
if it's not on the charger right it's the same as not being plugged in I suppose so so I didn't get any of Mark's

0:46
texts trying to wake me up I didn't send any text Mark didn't send any text because he didn't have his phone this

0:53
morning I didn't even check my phone woke up at typical time and got here

0:58
didn't even look at my phone I've probably been up for an hour and a half I just not something that I typically do

1:03
till about 7:30 or

1:09
[Music] so welcome to how I see it with me Mark

1:15
PR and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to countercultural

1:22
polarization through thoughtful [Music]

1:28
conversations yeah so just a weird morning so we're getting a little bit of a late start it is but not so late we

1:34
can't say good morning Mark good morning Justin it was a beautiful sunrise this morning was it you missed it I missed it

1:40
I missed it I I I barely got to my Justin rise fortunately Megan was involved so

1:47
yeah yeah that's right she woke me up aren't you supposed to be doing something I was like doing what you're

1:55
still taking up you're still taking up half the bed come on now don't you have a place to go used to having the rest of

2:00
the bed by now that's right that's a good point uh but yeah we got here yes

2:06
and we have a surprise topic surprise topic to me at least that's right yes I

2:11
won't be surprised because I picked it oh cool yeah all right so the topic that

2:17
I want to talk about completely completely out of the blue completely out of the BL blue are you ready Mark I

2:23
am what is it you don't have a wait you don't have a like a leadin question for me before Oh well

2:30
I I you know the leading question yes is what do you think the definition of

2:37
gaslighting is oh yeah that's a good one um basically

2:42
gaslighting from my perspective is when

2:48
I conduct myself in such a way to make you think that you have a

2:56
certain diagnosis if you will from a from my clinical Viewpoint I know there

3:01
there's a you know the urban definition of gaslighting and so forth but as it's as it's become my understanding of it is

3:09
the fact that yeah I'm trying to convince you that you have a diagnosis

3:14
like you are narcissistic would be a good one you know it's like you're a narcissist you

3:20
know don't you see you do this you do this you do this you're a narcissist when in reality it may very well be that

3:26
other person that is the narcissist but yet there is this ability to want to

3:31
convince you that you are indeed the issue the problem that kind of thing

3:37
that would be my definition that's pretty good well like you said the reason what would you like to add to

3:44
that definition well the reason I bring this subject up is because it's very culturally relevant right now for a lot

3:51
of reasons which I think most listeners would know but for the particular reason that I chose this topic today is because

3:57
Miriam Webster chose it as their word of the Year oh wow yeah and so they they do

4:03
this based on um it being the most searched word within a given year so

4:10
it's databased that's how they pick it so I would dare say narcissism is close

4:16
behind lookups yeah just I'd be curious I'd be curious

4:22
to see that list of words it wasn't in the list that they showed okay but what

4:27
they like they showed they showed like I think okay yeah so no I just yeah yeah

4:33
so um it was searched on their website 1,740 per more in 2022 than in the

4:40
previous year oh wow yeah okay so so so I thought hey this is a good culturally

4:46
relevant sure polarizing word I mean it is a polarizing word in the sense that when it's used it's used to polarize

4:53
right it's usually used to separate further two individuals or parties or

4:59
whatever um was flying monkeys on the list as well yeah I'm sure oh I'm just

5:05
curious I'm going to read their little excerpt from their their post about their word of the Year thing if that's

5:10
cool yeah in this age of Mis misinformation of fake news conspiracy

5:16
theories Twitter trolls and deep fakes gaslighting has emerged as a word for our time a driver of disorientation and

5:24
mistrust gaslighting is the this uh let's see yeah the act or practice of

5:30
grossly misleading someone especially for one's own Advantage so 2022 saw uh

5:36
one you know 1,740 per increase in lookups for gaslighting with high interest throughout the year the modern

5:43
definition of gaslighting this is cool dates back to the 1938 do you know what

5:48
it it was a movie nice well it started as a play but it was adapted to a movie

5:55
Yes uh yeah do you know what the plot was yeah it was it was to the point that

6:00
a guy was trying to make his wife think she was basically crazy because he had

6:05
orchestrated away for the lights to come on you know the gas lights to come on I was hoping to stump you a little bit

6:11
with the surprise topic but I feel like you read all this stff all right so let me read this but yeah you nailed it um

6:18
it's Bas it dates back to the 1938 hit play gas light the onstage th Thriller and its two screen

6:25
adaptations uh Chronicle a man's diabolical attempts to convince his wife that she's going insane by telling her

6:31
that she's imagining the dimming of the gas lights in their apartment sure yeah yeah so when gaslighting was first used

6:38
in the mid 20th century it referred to a kind of deception uh like that in the movie we uh we Define this use as

6:44
psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the

6:49
validity of their own thoughts perception of reality or memories and typically leads to confusion loss of

6:56
confidence and self-esteem uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability and the dependency

7:02
on the perpetrator but in recent years we have seen the meaning of gaslighting refer also to something simpler and broader

7:09
the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for a personal Advantage pH nice sound it's

7:17
good stuff yeah sounds like that sounds like a good topic for Mark to Enlighten us about oh Enlightenment that's a

7:25
Enlighten this right now so a couple thoughts sure that I thought would be

7:31
interesting to discuss um it's first like where you've seen it maybe recently

7:38
um in the media or like kind of the where you've seen it truly or where you've seen it called out or maybe it

7:44
didn't feel that way um and then as we continue to talk I kind of want to talk

7:49
about uh false positives or how you know like ways you can

7:56
um I've heard the word gaslighting use used as a way to gas light you're

8:02
gaslighting it's like sure no that person's arguing for their Viewpoint now

8:09
um I found this really well we won't go there yet because I I got some more

8:14
stuff but got you got some Tempo you want to build in here Tempo so first just I'd love to hear a

8:21
little bit about if where I've experienced it where I've seen it yeah sure [Music]

8:27
um as a therapist there's a at times

8:32
well as a as a marriage therapist um I

8:38
routinely will not see a couple individually it's just it's just not

8:45
necessarily a practice of mine unless I mean unless unless there is an aspect of

8:50
abuse you follow me and you know there's a point where they're not willing to gather together as a couple you know but

8:58
quite often if or in those circumstances when I do make an exception based on what's going

9:05
on you know one partner doesn't want to see me you know but one partner is willing that kind of thing you know I

9:13
I'll I I'll always start there you know if somebody's willing to see me I'm always willing because I do believe you

9:19
know in the in the system changing on one half one part of a system to gets change throughout the entire system so

9:28
that's typically where I'm going to run into it is I'm going to one person kind

9:34
of reminds me of Proverbs at times because it's like the first person to share their Viewpoint seems correct

9:42
until someone else comes along and shares their perspective so you know I will hear words like gaslighting you

9:49
know used with couples I will hear words like narcissism you know and and it's

9:54
just interesting from my perspective how a lot of the

10:00
cultural you know terminologies will interface with yes they'll interface to

10:06
a certain degree with the therapeutic world as well you know that kind of

10:11
thing because that's that's where it's kind of been adopted because culture gives us the uh vocabulary sure so yeah

10:19
and it's funny because even the word bipolar the B bipolar became a

10:26
diagnosis uh in the early before before I was a therapist so I

10:33
mean like you say I've been doing this almost 10 years and I can remember hearing the word bipolar from a

10:41
therapist or you know someone in mental health industry um early

10:47
90s yeah you follow me but but now it describes someone who just gets angry

10:53
you know or you get angry or you get mulle emotions within any amount of time

10:59
it could be one year and it's completely you know yeah completely different than

11:05
the original bi you know bipolar diagnosis type right so yeah that's which is very like quite clinical in

11:13
sure yeah yeah but the but the cult but culture has basically taken on that what

11:19
are you looking for I'm sorry the beginning of bipolar oh yes

11:26
that's when I first heard it I'll I'll put it that way yeah yeah yeah but I wouldn't I honestly

11:32
don't know when it uh it would like you say this is not a quick

11:41
answer they have a number 1851 as a french guy coming up with a

11:47
French word which translates to Circular Insanity which apparently was a

11:52
beginning of the idea but I was actually looking for yeah you know I just wanted to I

11:57
just wanted to sound guys come on yeah sorry could but you're gonna yeah you're

12:03
1957 okay yeah subclassification of bipolar disorder was first proposed by

12:09
German psychiatrist Carl leanard in 1957 wow so yeah he was also the first

12:15
to introduce the terms bipolar and something I yeah that's the snippet in Google folks that's all you get that's

12:21
all we need really so yeah I didn't mean to Sidetrack but there it's it's interesting to me how I did mean to but

12:27
I apologize it's all okay it's it's interesting how you know our clinical world will you know will grab it and

12:34
it'll become something completely different in in our cultural World Yeah by definition yeah so yes back to gas

12:40
lighting that's how I have experienced it and it's just been an interesting and gas liting went the other way around

12:47
which is well I mean I guess it's never truly been a psychological term yeah right yeah no I would agree with that

12:53
yes it's not in DSM anyway you know it really should be

12:59
they gaslighting it might very well be yes I'm just going to start using that

13:04
in all of our conversations I'm I'm sensing that when I listen to anything that doesn't agree with me on I'm pretty

13:10
sure they're gaslighting you mark me you I'm just I'm not listening you're you're

13:16
likely able to see that that is not true but yeah yeah I I will likely Fall

13:23
forward in the context of gaslighting yes how have you experienced that in

13:29
like cultural things politics whatever I don't know I'm going to

13:35
say I'm not sure that I have necessarily you know from a I I'll see that's

13:41
because you don't check your phone I don't I don't check my phone I rarely check my phone yeah uh I'll be honest

13:48
you know anything that uh I I will say that uh like Apple news when it comes up

13:56
with that line of that tagline of that says basically things you need to know

14:03
that actually frustrates me yeah yeah because it's like as if my life will not

14:08
go on if I don't know what they want Apple says you need to know yes this about politics about culture you know

14:16
it's like so yeah that's that's how I would equate it in similar ways it's like yeah you just don't know yeah you

14:23
just don't know what you need to know yeah I would I would dare say in a loose

14:28
term ology that's in some ways gaslighting but there again it's like no

14:34
wait a second yeah what what what allows you the you know the audacity if I may

14:40
say so to define the things that I need to know in the process of my day so yeah

14:47
what's how about you how how would you say you are subject to it well I have

14:54
some personal kind of thoughts on it and then cultural too and my brain is I've

15:00
been trying to think of this term while you were talking and I can't think of it so you can help me I'll just look stupid

15:05
for the audience but um the recent not recent in the last 10 years where women

15:11
have come out as saying hey me too yes thank you oh you've saved

15:19
me don't you don't you hate that when you get you do that for we did that pretty well that was like in 10 words or

15:25
less that was good that was good that happens fairly regularly you bail me out

15:30
it's it's good vice versa as well so yeah the me too movement you know there's a that term was used a lot in

15:37
that and for for good reasons I think um I um you know the me too movement was

15:43
very heartbreaking for me because I think it is um that was part of where my

15:50
passion came from when we talked about the um uh Power stuff and just kind of uh the the

15:59
hierarchy the way it set up a patriarchical society and kind of the male dominance all that kind of Stu yeah

16:06
toxic masculinity um kind of a lot of my take

16:11
on that has just come from hearing the stories of women who you know dealt with those things and you think about like

16:17
the gymnasts in the Olympics and it's just heartbreaking for me to know like

16:23
they're giving 152% of themselves to the sport and just so extremely dedicated to

16:31
it that they don't know that there are lines that are crossed because that's part of the 152% you get you know you

16:38
you allow them to do things that they shouldn't or whatever and you know the

16:44
the gaslighting is what's happening there where this this person is grooming them to say hey you need this in order

16:51
to whatever to achieve this result you need me to be able to whatever whatever

16:57
I'm manipulating to and it's gaslighting it's essentially saying you're crazy if

17:02
you you know it's it's that same idea of like if you don't do this you're not going to be at your Peak sure you know

17:08
yeah I like the word you use manipulation yeah it's old fashioned but still yeah no but I mean that's the

17:14
underpinnings right of um of the term gaslighting is manipulation yep exactly

17:20
and for my benefit yep and then same thing with actresses and stuff like that and you know I I think just to balance

17:29
slightly I know that there's I'm not even going to go there I don't I don't care about that I was

17:35
going to say we don't care about balance yeah I was going to say that I know the me to movement has brought a lot of

17:42
things to light and most of it is really good I I don't know that there aren't some

17:47
um some friendly fire or not friendly fire but um some misfires some things

17:53
happening where um it's based on this movement there's a lot more credibility

17:59
given that maybe should be but overall I guess like I'm saying I'm not too sad that um you know it that a many women

18:07
are able to come to light and find some healing and also help establish some change in some of these industries that

18:13
are so Geared for allowing gaslighting to happen you know um but yeah I just

18:20
think about actresses too and like a lot of their stories in order you know there's this perception that is I would argue

18:29
given by the gaslighters to say that you cannot succeed in this industry without

18:34
doing some favors without whatever without you know making you know some

18:40
choices you know yeah it's about who you know it's about how much they like you you know it's about how much that you're

18:45
in with them and so again if you if you're giving 152% to your career then

18:52
that 52% that's over 100 is doing things that maybe later you go you know that

18:57
probably didn't need to be in there right um anyway so those are some of the

19:02
cultural things that come to mind that for me are just very heartbreaking and kind of true examples of gaslighting you

19:08
know what I mean um yeah and then personally um like Megan and I have had

19:14
discussions where U you know I've been a part of Celebrate Recovery working on uh

19:20
my own self you know for 10 plus years right so it's the cool thing about

19:25
Celebrate Recovery is it's not just about fixing your addiction that one thing you came in the door for I'm an

19:32
alcoholic so I got to go get pets fixed and then I'll be perfectly normal functioning human being sure if you

19:38
think so you know but it's really about peeling back the layers of onion and just keep you know working on the next

19:45
thing that you find you know and for me you know one of those layers was uh the

19:52
way that our relationship operated and there was on my part some gaslighting

19:58
some like basically in arguments or whatever when

20:04
I would get um frustrated or whatever the way that I would try and get through

20:10
or get the conversation to get come to my side is like try and convince her her view was crazy it's crazy because here's

20:17
why you know this kind of idea and as I read have read some resources or even

20:23
even before reading about gaslighting I started to recognize some of those patterns that were just wrong

20:29
and also Megan alongside me has been part of celebrate recovery for those same number of years and been doing her

20:35
own work to recognize you know because part there's two parts to gaslighting there's the gaslighter and that's the

20:41
person being gas lit and if that person can get wise counsel and can get you

20:48
know whatever yeah individuality yep yep gain some healthy individuality through

20:54
supports yep then they can figure out how to get out of that or start recognizing you calling me crazy doesn't

21:00
make me crazy and so Megan's been doing that same work so we've kind of come to

21:05
some Crossroads where and it's been hard because it's like you know yeah what

21:10
used to work it doesn't work anymore the way we used to deal with things can't

21:16
work anymore and we've had to work through that or whatever um and I would almost

21:22
say that it almost felt like it went full circle like too far to where I

21:28
stopped trying to argue for my side because I I didn't want that

21:34
gaslighting thing and it became to where I could not it almost came to where I was like

21:40
am I crazy maybe I'm crazy and that wasn't the right place to land either

21:47
and Megan wasn't gaslighting me I'm not going to say that at all like that's not what it's about it just about there is a

21:53
place for each person's opinions and working them out together sure and um

21:59
being able to Value the differences because they are real in such a way that

22:05
doesn't devalue them I think that's a lot of what you know coupling good

22:11
marriage good coupling is is that ability to Value who you are and that difference

22:18
when I'm able to do that I believe your relationship can kind of go to the next

22:23
level but when I see you your differences as being wrong

22:29
that that's handicapping to good relationship yeah and in some cases

22:36
obviously the differences are wrong like there is a problem that needs to be resolved right yeah I I'll I the word

22:45
wrong I'm I'm gonna wrestle with personally let analy I'm gonna say there

22:50
is aspects of un when so let's let's put it this way if I am very insecure

22:59
so every time you know my wife talks with a a a male person if I get

23:06
jealous okay that's my issue yeah you know I'll be perfectly

23:12
honest but you know the fact that if if my wife were to basically have a

23:20
different view where our children are concerned I believe that's healthy yeah

23:26
because I think that's part of and you know not to you know sound sexist but

23:32
you know she is just more nurturing than I am as a female I believe she is more nurturing than I am and I and I think

23:39
that difference when I can value that she is just different designed

23:45
differently then I think that's healthy you just had too much toxic masculinity

23:51
flowing through your B at times possibly but that's not what

23:56
that was about yes so yeah no it's all good but yeah I think you know so I I

24:02
appreciate the clarification you know to be able to use an example but well I have I have an example sure go for it uh

24:09
so if like let's say as the dad um if my kids do anything wrong my default

24:16
response hold hold there if your kids do something wrong I think it's that's that's my that's my what are we defining

24:23
as wrong um I don't think I personally I don't

24:28
think that's important for where I'm going okay but like the word let's say unhe let's say let's say we said they

24:36
could not do X and when we weren't looking they did it anyway fair enough okay yep uh all right so they did

24:43
something wrong and that was what it was all right and uh one of the spouses us

24:49
you know usually the male is the one in this that does these kinds of things I know I've been guilty of it but not to

24:55
the degree that I'm about to say but basically every time they do something wrong the male goes off he yells top you

25:02
know not top of his lungs but he's just yelling and harping every single time and you see and the spouse sees that and

25:10
sees the child's countenance you know lowering and like basically a whimpering

25:17
dog every single time the kid does something wrong that same cycle happens right now that needs to be addressed

25:25
sure between spouses the the I would encourage encourage a wife to say hey

25:30
that's not acceptable we need to correct our children we need to train them up in the

25:36
way they should go we need a discipline but that's not working that's not the right way to do it and we need to figure

25:42
out a way to do it better that's that's a Wise Wise wife right there that is a wise wife yeah and

25:49
she didn't even tell he was doing something wrong I know she really picked her words words and her behavior yes

25:57
she's a Proverbs 31 woman for sure just to be clear we're talking about my wife so she she's done this for me you know

26:04
she's she's gotten on me about the ways that I've um gotten on our kids you know

26:09
and I don't even know how we setting all this up but I think it had to do it sometimes the difference there is a

26:16
wrong side okay and and I'm so using this example there have been times where

26:22
Megan said I don't think that that way is the right way and she was right sure

26:28
and looked at and said you're right M and uh gaslighting is this idea of

26:34
saying you don't see X Y and Z and you know ABC you know all these things so

26:41
you can't even speak to it you know if you could see all these things that I

26:46
see you would you would respond the way I am and think that it is correct but unfortunately for you and I'm sorry but

26:53
you don't see those things and I don't think you probably can because you don't have my mess whatever it is you don't

27:00
have the X Factor that I do maybe someday maybe I can teach you I don't

27:05
know like that and that's exactly where narcissism will come into play sure yeah that's

27:11
where see those two words yeah yes are very tangential right like and gas

27:17
liting is just a way to get there quickly I think in today's culture but yeah exactly too

27:23
quickly yeah yeah because it's polarizing again you agree it's a

27:29
polarizing topic I do I do it's a polarizing topic yes it is so yeah I

27:35
think it is and yet I think in some ways it comes back to that aspect of

27:40
manipulation you know whether it's you know husband wife whether it's me tooo movement you know there is this power

27:47
Dynamic that we want to establish and unfortunately we're not always good at

27:54
that sometimes even the people you know even you use a male example there are

28:01
wives that may do the same thing you know even in the me too movement there are people who will use that movement

28:08
and just to yeah hurt someone you know and that's that's the unfortunate part

28:14
because it calls the whole thing into question yeah you know what I mean discredits it discredits it when when in

28:21
reality I'm in agreement you know there there are some cultural dynamics that

28:26
need to that we need to be aware of and we need to address and I think you know it's it's very similar even it kind of

28:34
brings we we talked about uh gun control but you know I still previously but it's still the same Dynamic I think those

28:41
with more responsibility are responsible for protecting those with

28:48
less responsibility you follow me the the the it's like adults should protect

28:54
children yes that kind of thing coaches should respect you players yes uh yeah

29:00
to where it's not some directors should I think there is a healthy hierarchy actors yeah yeah and and and you know

29:07
you can spin that however you want to but I think yeah all those aspects those doctors were not protecting you know the

29:15
people under their care you know and that that is unhealthy that's you know

29:22
and that's where yeah I can really feel for those people and you know and unfort

29:28
Ely it will be there will be those who use that system and there may be you know certain doctors who were

29:35
discredited you know wrongly because someone chose to see that as an opportunity for their personal gain yeah

29:44
and to your point too like there are going to be examples and have been

29:50
sure of people who like you said they hear this movement and it's a good

29:55
enough fill in for what their problem is like they don't necessarily have the tools to resolve the issue in their life

30:03
or or they would have and this comes along and you go you know what that's exactly what this is and they redraw the

30:10
parameters to fit and then they use this thing as the tool for for dealing with

30:16
their uh conflict right it's their conflict resolution mechanism and Trigger and to your point like that's

30:23
not correct that's you they're drawing on something that doesn't quite fit and making it fit right yeah U and it's

30:30
going to be unhealthy Unfortunately they weren't healthy enough to resolve the conflict anyway sure you know so it's

30:37
like yeah there there is some D Dynamics there where that's always going to happen where whatever's in the what is

30:43
it Shaden fry the current cultural Dynamic you got me there that

30:49
might not be the word but it could be someone fat current let's say it is okay

30:54
um anyway whatever's in the current cultural Dynamic like that that they're always they're always gonna latch on to

31:00
those things as a a way to resolve conflict if they see it working right yeah so me too it's like well me too you

31:07
know I don't know that for an example but but I'm thinking about it in that context Whenever there is a form

31:16
of uh here again manipulation power control Dynamics in play you know I'm

31:22
going to use what I have and if that's blackmail if I may use an older terminology you know it's like okay I

31:29
I'm re rearranging it because I think you wrong me so therefore I'm G to use

31:35
what I might know about you in such a way that I can shift that power control

31:43
Dynamic and it puts me back in control you know and I think you know that's that's where I think it is healthy to

31:50
have other people involved you know is and I think that's what makes marriage

31:55
difficult is because it's just to two people well our culture sees it is just

32:00
two people I believe God's always involved you know from a from a aspect H

32:06
he's not always involved but he desires to be involved you know and I think you know that's when we can find a source of

32:13
Truth in all the midst of the manipulation and the gaslighting and we're able to say okay

32:21
that's not how I see it this is how I see it and how can you recognize

32:29
that my viewpoint is as important as

32:34
yours and we're able to recognize that as as it will say if I am in control I

32:42
am being the narcissist and I'm telling you you know it's like you have that ability to come to me and say hey help

32:48
me understand where all this pride and arrogance comes from that you see you know granted that wouldn't be a good way

32:54
to deal with it but you know to be able to address it in a straight forward Manner and maybe even bring some other

32:59
people along who are basically able to say yeah this is what I'm seeing you

33:06
know and I think that's where I come into play at times with couples because it's that ability to have two people and

33:14
and bring mediation into it in such a way that minimizes the manipulation

33:19
identifies those patterns and cycles that you describe that were unhealthy

33:24
and I think you know gas Ling is definitely one of those areas is where okay why what is the purpose behind me

33:33
trying to convince you so harshly that my way is

33:38
right because I believe that's where that's the basis for it is I want my way or that your way is

33:46
wrong like if you're trying yeah to I'm trying to convince someone else I just realized like as you were talking I was

33:52
thinking about some of the you know times in the past where Megan and I would struggle and I would you know attempt man that manipulation that

33:59
gaslighting was when I wanted her to think her way was wrong because it was hurting me sure and so uh you know it's

34:06
easy to say that now but gaslighting is definitely not the right way to deal with being hurt you know that that was

34:13
part of you know my thing is like you know the way you're doing this is wrong and crazy you know kind of thing and I

34:20
think that's a rather than be like you're hurting me which felt would feel emasculating which is dumb like we

34:26
should be able to communicate that as men it's you know you're doing a crazy

34:32
thing you know you're a crazy you know like I even think about like a lot of uh

34:37
you know like those daytime talk shows like how they just yeah you're crazy she threw a frying pan at my head she's

34:44
crazy you know instead of saying you know you hurt me or whatever right I

34:50
think that that that so in other words it's not just about saying uh I'm right sometimes it's about saying you're wrong

34:56
it can be used for a tool for both of those right which sure are they different I don't know yeah but I think

35:02
what I what I like in that is the fact that you guys were able to talk about that and I and I like the aspect of

35:09
being able to recognize when hurt is involved you you described it yourself

35:14
depending on how Megan addressed that

35:20
okay that aspect of being identified is crazy will quite often shift me to the

35:26
other end of the Spectrum even though that I'm so so let's do it I'll use an

35:33
example let's do it this way um I'll put aggressive on one end and passive on the

35:39
other okay in the middle would be assertive there's boundaries there's lines I'm putting my hands up in the air

35:45
to Define this this assertive my the ability to say what I see and how I see

35:50
it is assertive okay but if I'm aggressive I'm G to come across you you

35:56
you you you did this you did this you did this and a passive person is going

36:01
to say yeah you're right that's my fault neither one healthy okay but the the interesting

36:09
part is if I've been hurt by aggression that's going to tend to make

36:15
me a little more passive but in order for me to become more healthy to to to

36:22
move towards the middle for assertiveness I'm going to have to appear a little more aggressive even to

36:29
get to assertive you follow me so and I think that's the difficult part when

36:35
we've been labeled crazy you know and one end or the other it's very difficult

36:40
to start shifting because that's counter to what I'm comfortable with that's counter to what I'm used to and so when

36:48
you described that between you and Megan and she was basically able to say hey you know what the way you're addressing

36:54
our kids is a little bit aggressive that hurts MH MH so the tendency can be very

37:02
well then I'm just not going to say anything to our kids at all via the term

37:07
passive aggressive you know because we have a hard time yeah finding that

37:12
middle ground that says okay the the fact that I was wrong and I can promptly

37:18
admit it you know we don't necessarily do that well because the of the hurt

37:25
that's involved when someone is assertive and identifies an issue in

37:31
us so you know our tendency in human in our humanness is to say well I'll just

37:36
never do that again right you know but then in in reality that that's shortlived and we quite often go right

37:43
back to the same old cycle and we'll be back to being aggressive yeah and that's neither even if you stayed over there

37:49
like fine I'm button out that's what your new reality is

37:54
that's no more healthy yes than the other side we just jumped the shark

37:59
exactly it's not the right term but I like that term we're throwing out just just has

38:06
been researching terminology we need a fact checker on our shows say you use that term wrong

38:14
and jump the shark do you know that term I do not I wouldn't see assertiveness as

38:19
a shark even but I believe you know what you know what came to mind for me this is this is a little age fact check evil

38:26
pil okay when he didn't he jump the I know he like jumped a pool in Las Vegas or

38:34
something the origin of jump the shark comes from happy days when what's his name the main character Fon Fonzi jumps

38:40
a shark with a motorcycle and it was theyed yeah I know I know you might even

38:46
been thinking of F I don't know that it's meant to describe the moment a show

38:52
Peaks and cannot like it's or even maybe slightly past the peak where it's like

38:57
okay they jumped the shark this is this is a little too far you know that it

39:03
used to be better and now it's trying too hard kind of thing I gotta so it's a drunk trying to ride a horse no that's

39:10
another term though yeah because you when you you've been on one side a drunk

39:15
trying to ride a horse it's very difficult for them to stay in the center of the saddle okay they will typically

39:21
lean to one side or the other this is the emology show edmy

39:28
it's uh like analogies or or Orin yes

39:33
sorry is it emology he just did the etymology of what's the difference between the study of bugs I don't know

39:39
what the study of bugs is but I'm gonna look atmology because are you saying I'm fact checking myself right now Ed E no e

39:48
y stud yeah that's right study of the original words etymology gotcha gotcha

39:54
we just did etymology on atmology that's how etm logical this episode

40:00
is what that on the drunk drunk trying to ride a horse okay is this idea of

40:06
vacillating back and forth okay interesting between passive and aggressive I think this episode has

40:11
jumped the Shar just kidding I have uh so have you

40:16
ever heard of Dr Caroline Leaf it's fine if you no well there's a

40:23
there's a person that comes to mind that deals with thought stoppage but it she's a psych

40:30
psychologist psychologist I lost my link one second

40:35
so she she has a a great Instagram account where she posts okay cool things

40:41
you know helpful wisdom that kind of thing and I came across this one um a

40:46
while back and I had to redig it up for this when I when I when I wanted to do this um but it's gaslighting versus

40:54
disagreement and um which is really cool so um and if you're not familiar with her

40:59
she's great you should follow her on Instagram very good advice a lot of stuff we talk about she has great

41:05
already talked about yeah in much better ways in fact when I was looking up that I went to her Instagram page and I

41:12
messaged her and I said we could use you as a guest now I see it podcast we need

41:17
you to come talk about some polarized subjects cool she's not gonna come because she's much busier than we are

41:24
did she reply no oh no I don't think that's know that she's not going to come that's true I'm trying to shame her into

41:31
coming she's going to hear this episode going to work well my friend well partly because she's not GNA hear this

41:38
episode but back to I digress yes so I'm

41:43
gonna kind of walk through some of these differences it's in this Instagram post it'll be in the show notes but and you

41:50
can look at it it's nicer visually but you'll get that point so gaslighting versus disagreement so she has B

41:57
basically this vend vend diagram except the circles are not connected right so there's there's gaslighting which is one

42:03
thing and disagreement on the other side so um on the left she has gaslighting which is manipulates you into

42:10
questioning your reality and your sanity yeah that's the dangerous part of it

42:16
where disagreement looks like seeing things differently but recognizing and respecting your perspective because I

42:24
this is this will quite often happen you know in even if in that indiv the the

42:29
person has been gaslighted so much they second guess themselves most of the time it's not just in that one area it's like

42:37
they're talking with me about what they're seeing and it's like is that crazy yeah is that crazy you know

42:45
because they're second guessing themselves and and I don't think we always recognize how I'll call it

42:52
diabolical yeah you know that that dynamic can be in relationship

42:59
if I'm so convinced you're crazy to think it's crazy yeah it's not crazy yeah yeah yeah yeah it's tough and it

43:07
can even happen without a gaslighter like some people are naturally gasl they

43:12
just Gaslight themselves because of the how the environment they grew up in right maybe at some themselves right I

43:19
don't know in security yep could be due to lack of self-esteem insecurity could be for many reasons there doesn't always

43:26
have to be a guas lighter although it certainly helps all right so the next slide

43:31
gaslighting is when they present opinions as facts and the only correct way to look at things which again you

43:38
kind of ties into your narcissism uh where disagreement is they are open to learning about your

43:45
perspective so it's here's how I see it how do you see it Mark yeah you know yep

43:50
healthy and unhealthy yep yeah next slide they shut down the conversation

43:55
this is gaslighters and blame blame you for getting too emotional to handle it sure versus they notice things are

44:02
getting heated and suggest taking a break to cool down yeah yeah gaslighting

44:09
is when they attack your perspective and blame you and disagreement is when they are able to agree to disagree sure right

44:16
M uh last one uh gaslighting is the the goal is to make you question your

44:22
sanity and disagreement yeah it does work and dis agreement is the goal is to

44:28
come to an agreement or have their perspective seen sure so yeah that's a

44:33
really good clear distinction like if you if in either side of that equation

44:40
um we've talked about this before it's much easier for someone who's being gaset for them to hear us saying Hey listen if this is happening pay

44:47
attention and figure out whether they're you're being gaset or you're being disagreed with you know that sure for

44:54
someone who's doing the gaslighting I would also encourage the same thing thing but it's less likely they'll listen

44:59
right kind of that same perspective but you know look at that Instagram post and

45:05
look at how you do your arguments and if you fall more in that left category I would encourage you to work on that and

45:12
try and shift to that right you know that right side of that those diagrams to where you're you're learning how to

45:18
disagree without gaslighting sure um because I also think that is a tool that

45:24
we learn gaslighting that works it's like oh once they question their sanity

45:29
it's much easier to get my point across and much easier to get the what I want which I always think is the right thing

45:36
sure right yeah we wouldn't argue if we didn't think our side was right so in

45:42
our mind most most people Mark Mark's thinking about it he's like I don't know about that but I think for most of us

45:49
right we're not we always think we're right that's that's the tendency is to think my position is the correct one

45:56
everyone else is kind of outside of that they're either in line with my perspective or not and if they're not they're wrong instead of the natur the

46:03
more healthy perspective to say I'm probably right on some things I probably got some things wrong sure but even if

46:09
you have the healthy perspective you have to mostly trust that you have the right perspective right like that's

46:15
Integrity iar yeah right it's this idea believe believing what you think and thinking what you believe and acting and

46:21
what you believe and all that but I think a person could also just come into a conversation and say this is what I'm

46:28
thinking I'm not sure without necessarily saying because I think that person is actually able to hear someone

46:35
because if a person is 100% convinced that they're right they're likely not asking for influence right so so here's

46:42
what I was trying to get to I I was going to say the healthiest individuals believe they're right that there's nothing wrong with believing you're

46:48
right you should believe that you're right that that's that I was trying to say that I got you so that being true

46:54
where we all think we're right right just baseline or else you wouldn't do what you're doing you would CH you

47:01
again I'm good with it keep going he keeps giving me these looks like I don't know if I'd go that far um no it's good

47:09
it's good moderation but the point is you know naturally we we mostly think that we're in the race we don't

47:14
typically do things that we believe are wrong right our position we tend to we

47:21
quite often do things that that we believe or wrong yeah that we think are

47:27
right when they are so yeah I'm don't mean to so the point is if that's true

47:32
we all want to you know believe that we're right and we want to hold that

47:37
line some of us are going to find unhealthy ways to to accomplish that and if they're effective in our mind they're

47:45
not unhealthy because they accomplish the truth my way sure right and then you

47:51
reinforce those feelings of I'm right when you see others admit they're wrong

47:56
wrong because they now think they're crazy or whatever and it only reinforces that right so it reinforces this in this

48:03
thought that I'm always right and other everyone else is wrong because look when when I say this they admit they're wrong

48:10
right so clearly I'm more and more right I need to continue to show everybody how

48:15
right I am and how wrong they are because clearly I'm getting more and more of a monopoly on the truth sure

48:21
does that make sense it's kind of a form of bullying if you really boil it down right but again

48:27
you're you're like a social justice Warrior like everyone needs to know these truths because I have them and

48:33
they don't unfortunately and I'm going to help them sure I see by any means necessary I'm saying very it's very rare

48:41
where that person is thinking I'm a bully but I like it it's more often that

48:46
they think they are right they truly believe it and they think as more and

48:52
more they get reinforced in that belief the more they will tend towards bullying because it's for the greater good as

48:59
they see it as they see it of course yeah of course you're coming yeah so

49:05
they get stuck in these patterns of doing whatever it takes because as I found it works and when it works I'm

49:13
proven to be right sure and it's this reinforcing cycle right sure just like chauvinism or any other thing yeah

49:20
exactly it's kind of that power Dynamic where if your power Works to gain you more power it's like and and again most

49:29
people believe they're they're right in their position so as you gain more power the more you can assert your rightness

49:36
everywhere in in your mind that's it's all justified by the means you know the

49:41
means is Justified because of the result which is more and more people getting right my way yeah yeah so I think I

49:50
think part of that side of gaslighting is this mechanism that works that

49:56
reinforces is itself M so someone who gaslights is going to continue to do so and probably more and more throughout

50:02
their life with this particular individual but also if it works there there's no reason they're not going to

50:07
continue to try it in more and more situations you know yeah that's my thought no I hear you you see it Mike

50:14
well I think I people as as you're describing that yeah um I feel for the

50:21
people around that person yeah in long-term relationship and yet also thinking of

50:28
people those individuals who have that characteristic you know and their

50:33
ability to maintain long-term relationships because if they engage with other healthy people who know how

50:40
to do recognize the difference between gaslighting and disagreement they aren't going to necessarily have a lot of

50:46
long-term relationships it's going to be the people healthy ones yes exactly the

50:51
people that it's going to be the people that I can you know manipulate shortterm to get what I want shortterm and it

50:58
misses the long-term opportunities of healthy relationship yeah and the thing

51:04
about it this the kind of the Diabolical part of this is it also depends on your

51:11
charisma so that's where you know some of the the wine sign right I I don't

51:17
know anything about him I assume he had a lot of Charisma to be that popular in

51:22
all the Hollywood circles like if you read about that like he was t dog

51:28
everyone you know people who didn't weren't a part of the manipulation respected him and the people that were

51:35
also respected sure like so to me that speaks to some Dynamic level of Charisma

51:41
on top of the dynamic we just talked about right so the one we you just mentioned is more about someone who

51:47
lacks the Polish of Charisma sure and so they're going to their their friend group's going to dwindle dwindle and

51:53
their relation their healthy relationship is going to dwindle in the case of you add a lot of great Charisma

52:00
on top of that now again their healthy relationships are going to dwindle as well same same thing but their actual

52:06
relationship relationships are likely going to grow sure as people want to be in that Circle yeah and that's even more

52:14
diabolical in the sense that it's more convincing that they're doing the right thing although I'd argue that someone

52:20
with a small circle just says well it's everyone else's fault you know I don't know I guess they're both bad when you

52:27
think when you bring that kind of terminology into I do think it's a grooming that goes into you know play

52:33
yeah you know as I you know have a certain Charisma everybody everybody likes me you know and then those other

52:40
individuals who you are trying to manipulate see all of these other people

52:45
yeah and they think this person's wonderful and at the same time they're not must be crazy to think they're not

52:52
yeah and that's and that's what all the you know that's what a lot of you

52:57
current CIS type shows are about you know where this person was able to groom

53:03
all of these people yeah and yet they still had this ring of I'll just call it

53:08
Terror in general you know over certain individuals that they were using to

53:14
their yeah benefit yeah yeah yeah it's

53:19
it's sad because it's a real thing sure I mean again Nasser the Olympics coach

53:27
Weinstein Hollywood I mean those are the two examples we've been talking about today but it's it's very common in

53:35
certain circles um and it's just so sad because of our human nature can allow

53:41
both of those things to happen yeah it can allow us to become gas lighters and it can allow us to be gasl and

53:47
manipulated and our human nature is just so fickle yeah I do I hear you and I and

53:53
I think you know it's always in hindsight in some ways I think you know the parents of those athletes and so

53:58
forth you know it's typically in hindsight that you know I feel so terrible because I recognize that I was

54:06
manipulated yeah right which adds to the shamey my and my my

54:13
my my tendency to now second guess myself across the board yeah I was wrong

54:20
here once or I was wrong in this s situation I probably can't make any

54:25
decisions now right and you can understand how again how dangerous that

54:30
is and how yeah when that trust is finally recognized that it

54:36
wasn't yeah just trust not because you've already been half

54:41
destroyed sure now this kind of knocks the rest of the blocks out yeah yeah in

54:47
those situations the big biggest and best advice I think we can offer is get counsel get you know get counseling CU

54:54
they you have to be rebuilt sure you know at that point and you're not going to do it alone yeah so the

55:02
healthiest way to accomplish that is to get counseling I but you know there's other environments for that supports but

55:07
supports y yep support environment support groups yeah so yeah well done Justin

55:15
thanks for thanks for bringing that to our attention appreciate Le accommodating me with the for the

55:20
learning today oh yeah I'm always good for a surprise topic yeah all right yeah all right it's your turn next next

55:26
surprise topic o that's fair enough so that's how we see

55:32
[Music] it hey thank you for listening to our

55:39
podcast if you like how I see it please do all the things that podcasts tell you

55:45
to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

55:50
and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out the email

55:56
is us at how I see it doclick yep I said dot click as in dot c i c k

56:06
please tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

56:12
[Music]