Justin:

We’re going.

Mark:

Yes, we are. Good morning.

Justin:

Good morning. How are you?

Mark:

I am well. So

Justin:

weird. Weird morning for me because my my phone did not charge. And on top of not charging also died.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

So I’ve you know, I’ve had it happen before where it didn’t quite sit on the wireless charger right.

Mark:

Oh, okay.

Justin:

‘Cause it it does that with conductive charging and whatever and if you don’t sit it right sometimes you’ll But I’ve never had it also die.

Mark:

While while charger while on the charger. Yeah, that does seem like an ironic thing. Yeah. If it’s not on the charger right, it’s the same as not being plugged in, I suppose. So

Justin:

I didn’t get any of Mark’s text trying to wake me up.

Mark:

I didn’t send any text.

Justin:

Mark didn’t send any text because he didn’t have his phone this morning.

Mark:

I didn’t even check my phone. Woke up it Typical time. Yeah. Didn’t even look at my phone. I’d probably been up for an hour and a half. That’s just not something that I typically do till about 7. 30 or so. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s just a weird morning. So we’re gonna get a little bit of a late start. But not so late. We can say good morning, Mark.

Mark:

Good morning, Justin. It was beautiful sunrise. this morning. Was it? You missed it.

Justin:

I missed it. I missed it. I I I barely got to my Justin rise.

Mark:

Fortunately Megan was involved.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s right. She woke me up.

Mark:

Aren’t you supposed to be Doing something?

Justin:

I was like, doing what?

Mark:

You’re still taking up you’re still taking up half the bed. Come on now. Don’t you have a place to go?

Justin:

I’m used to having the rest of the bed by now.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

That’s a good point. Uh but yeah, we got here.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And we have a surprise topic.

Mark:

Surprise topic to me at least.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

I won’t be surprised because I picked it.

Mark:

Oh cool. Yeah.

Justin:

Alright, so the topic that I want to talk about.

Mark:

Completely completely out of the blue.

Justin:

Completely out of the blue. Are you ready, Mark?

Mark:

I am. What is it? You don’t have a qu wait. You don’t have a like a lead-in question for me before?

Justin:

Oh, well.

Mark:

I I, you know.

Justin:

The lead-in question is What do you think the definition of gaslighting is?

Mark:

Oh yeah, that’s a good one. Um basically gaslighting from my perspective is when I Conduct myself in such a way to make you think that you have a certain Diagnosis, if you will, from a from my clinical viewpoint. I know there’s there’s a you know the urban definition of gaslighting and so forth, but as it’s as it’s become my understanding of it, is the fact that, yeah, I’m trying to convince you that you have a diagnosis. Like you are Narcissistic would be a good one. You know, it’s like you’re a narcissist. When in reality it may very well be that other person that is the narcissist, but yeah, there is this ability to want to convince you. that you are indeed the issue, the problem, that kind of thing. That would be my definition.

Justin:

That’s pretty good.

Mark:

Well, like you say.

Justin:

The reason

Mark:

what would you like to add to that?

Justin:

Well, the reason I bring this subject up is because it’s very culturally relevant right now for a lot of reasons which I think most listeners would know. But for the particular reason that I chose this topic today is because Merriam Webster chose it as their word of the year.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah. And so they they do this based on um It being the most searched word within a given year. So that it’s databased, that’s how they pick it. So

Mark:

I would dare say narcissism is close behind.

Justin:

Lookups?

Mark:

Yeah. Did you just I’d be curious I’d be curious to see that list of words.

Justin:

It wasn’t in the list. that they showed.

Mark:

Okay. But what they should like to say show five.

Justin:

They showed like five, I think.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

So could you

Mark:

No, I’ve just yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

So, um, it was searched on their website a thousand seven hundred and forty percent more in twenty twenty-two than in the previous year.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah. Okay. So it so so I thought, hey, this is a good culturally relevant polarizing word. I mean, it is a polarizing word in the sense that when it’s used, it’s used to polarize, right? It’s usually used to s separate further two individuals or parties or whatever. Um

Mark:

was Flying Monkeys on the list as well?

Justin:

Yeah, I’m sure. Oh, I’m just curious. I’m gonna read their little excerpt from their their post about their word of the year thing if that’s cool. Yeah. In this age of mis misinformation, of fake news, conspiracy theories, Twitter trolls, and deep fakes, gaslighting has emerged as a word for our time, a driver of disorientation and mistrust. Gaslighting is The this is um let’s see. Yeah, the act or practice of grossly misleading someone, especially for one’s own advantage. So 2020 Jesus saw uh one you know set 1740 percent increase in lookups for gaslighting with high interest throughout the year The modern definition of gaslighting, this is cool, dates back to the 1938 hit do you know what it

Mark:

It was a movie.

Justin:

Oh nice Well, it started as a play, but it was adapted to a movie.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Uh yeah. Do you know what the plot was?

Mark:

Yeah, it was it was to the point that a guy was trying to make his wife think she was basically crazy because he had orchestrated away for the lights to come on, you know, the gas lights to come on.

Justin:

I was hoping to stump you a little bit with this surprise topic, but I feel like you read all this stuff. Alright, so let me read this. But yeah, you nailed it. He space it dates back to the nineteen thirty-eight hit play gaslight, the onstage thr thriller and its two screen ad adaptations

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Uh, chronicle a man’s diabolical attempts to convince his wife that she’s going insane by telling her that she’s imagining the dimming of the gas lights in their apartment.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So when gaslighting was first used in the mid-20th century, it referred to a kind of deception uh like that in the movie. We uh we define this use as psychological manipulation of a person, usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories, and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence, and self-esteem. uncertainty of one’s emotional or mental stability and the dependency on the perpetrator. But in recent years we have seen the meaning of gaslighting refer also to something simpler and broader. the act or practice of grossly misleading someone, especially for a personal advantage. Phew.

Mark:

Nice stuff.

Justin:

It’s good stuff.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Sounds like that sounds like a good topic for Mark to enlighten us about.

Mark:

Ooh, enlighten. That’s uh

Justin:

enlighten us, Mark. Now so a couple thoughts

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That I I thought would be interesting to discuss. Um as far as like where you’ve seen it maybe recently in the media or like kind of that. where you’ve seen it truly or where you’ve seen it called out or maybe it didn’t feel that way. Um and then as we continue to talk, I kinda want to talk about uh false positives or how, you know, like w ways you can um I’ve heard the word gaslighting used as a way to gaslight

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

You’re gaslighting.

Mark:

It’s like, sure.

Justin:

No, that person’s arguing for their viewpoint. Now, um, I found this really well, we won’t go there again. ‘Cause I got some more stuff.

Mark:

You got some tempo you want to build in here.

Justin:

So first just I’d love to hear a little bit about if

Mark:

you where I’ve experienced it, where I’ve seen it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Sure. Um As a therapist, there’s a at times, well as a as a marriage for therapist. Um I routinely will not see a couple individually It’s just it’s just not necessarily a practice of mine. Unless I mean unless unless there is an aspect of abuse. You follow me? And you know, there’s a point where they’re not willing to gather together as a couple You know, but quite often, if or in those circumstances when I do make an exception based on what’s going on, you know, one partner doesn’t want to see me You know, but one partner is willing, that kind of thing. You know, I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll always start there. You know, if somebody’s willing to see me, I’m always willing because I do believe, you know. in the in the system. Change in on one half of one part of the system begets change throughout the entire system. So that’s typically where I’m going to run into it. is I’m gonna one person kind of reminds me of Proverbs at times because it’s like the first person to share their viewpoint seems correct until someone else comes along and shares their perspective. So, you know, I will hear words like gaslighting, you know, used with couples. I will hear words like narcissism, you know, and it’s just interesting from my perspective how a lot of these cultural, you know, terminologies will interface with yes, they’ll interface to a certain degree with the therapeutic world as well. Yeah, that kind of thing because that’s that’s where it’s kind of been adopted.

Justin:

Sure. So

Mark:

yeah, and it’s funny because even the word bipolar the bip bipolar became a diagnosis uh in the early l before uh before I was a therapist. So I mean like you say I’ve been doing this almost ten years And I can remember hearing the word bipolar from a therapist or, you know, someone in mental health industry. Um early nineties.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? But but now it describes someone who just gets angry

Justin:

You know. Or

Mark:

you get angry or you get angry.

Justin:

Multiple emotions

Mark:

within

Justin:

any amount of time. It could be one year.

Mark:

And it’s completely, you know Yeah, completely different than the original bi, you know, bipolar diagnosis type thing.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s which

Justin:

is very like quite c clinical and

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. But the but the culture but culture has basically taken on that. What are you looking for? I’m sorry.

Justin:

The beginning of bipolar.

Mark:

Ooh, yes. That’s when I first heard it. I’ll c I’ll put it that way.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

But I wouldn’t I honestly don’t know when it uh hmm it would like you say

Justin:

This is not a quick answer. They have a number, 1851.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

That is a French guy coming up with a French word which translates to circular insanity, which apparently was a beginning of the idea, but I was actually looking for

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, I just wanted to I just wanted a sound bite guys. Come on.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Sorry, couldn’t you?

Mark:

But you’re gonna yeah, you’re

Justin:

1957.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

Subclassification of bipolar disorder was first proposed by German psychiatrist Karl Lienhardt in 1957.

Mark:

Wow. So yeah.

Justin:

He was also the first to introduce the terms bipolar and something I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s the snippet in Google folks.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

That’s all you get. That’s all we need, really.

Mark:

So yeah. I didn’t mean to sidetrack, but there it’s it’s interesting to me how

Justin:

I did mean to, but I apologize.

Mark:

It’s okay. It’s interesting how, you know, our clinical world will you know, we’ll grab it and it’ll become something completely different in a c in our cultural world.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

By definition.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yes, back to gaslighting. That’s how I have experienced it. And it’s just been an interesting and

Justin:

gaslighting went the other way around, which is Well, I mean I guess it’s never truly been a psychological term. Yeah. Right.

Mark:

Yeah. No, I would agree with that. It’s not in a DSM anyway, you know.

Justin:

It really should be. I feel like they’re gaslighting as much.

Mark:

It might very well be. Yes.

Justin:

I’m just gonna start using that in all of our conversations.

Mark:

I’m I’m sensing that it was.

Justin:

When I listen to anything that doesn’t agree with me, MSA. I’m pretty sure they’re gaslighting you, Mark.

Mark:

Me.

Justin:

You. I’m just I’m not listening.

Mark:

That is not true. But uh

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, I will I will likely fall for it in the context of gaslighting. Yes.

Justin:

How have you experienced that in like cultural things, politics, whatever? I don’t know.

Mark:

I’m gonna say I’m not sure that I have necessarily, you know, from uh I’ll I’ll see

Justin:

It’s because you don’t check your phone.

Mark:

I don’t. I don’t check my phone. I rarely check my phone.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Uh I’ll be honest, you know, anything that uh I I will say. that uh like Apple News when it comes up with that line of the that tagline of that says basically things you need to know. That actually frustrates me.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Because it’s like as if my life will not go on if I don’t know what they want.

Justin:

Apple says you need

Mark:

this about politics, about culture, you know, it’s like so yeah, that’s That’s how I would equate it in similar ways. It’s like, yeah, you just don’t know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You just don’t know what you need to know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I would I would dare say in a loose terminology, that’s in some ways gaslighting. But there again, it’s like, no, wait a second.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

What what what allows you the you know the audacity, if I may say so, to define the things that I need to know in the process of my day? So yeah. How about you? How would you say you are subject to it?

Justin:

Well, I have some personal kind of thoughts on it and then cultural too. My brain is I’ve been trying to think of this term while you were talking and I can’t think of it so you can help me. I just look stupid for the audience, but um The recent not recent in the last ten years where women have come out as saying, Hey, me too? Yes, thank you.

Mark:

Oh

Justin:

You’ve saved me. Don’t you hate that when you

Mark:

You did that pretty we did that pretty well. That was like in ten words or less.

Justin:

That was good. That was good. That happens fairly regularly. You bail me up. It’s gets good.

Mark:

Vice versa as well.

Justin:

So yeah, the Me Too movement, you know, there’s a that term was used a lot in that in for for good reasons, I think.

Mark:

Um

Justin:

I um You know, the Me Too movement was very heartbreaking for me because I think it it is um that was part of what where my passion came from when we talked about the um uh power stuff and just kind of uh the the hierarchy, the way it’s set up, a patriarchal society and Kind of the

Mark:

male dominance. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Toxic masculinity. Um kind of a lot of my take on that has just come from hearing the stories of women who, you know, dealt with those things. And you think about uh like the gymnasts in the Olympics and it’s just heartbreaking for me to not like they’re giving a hundred and fifty two percent of themselves to this sport and just so extremely dedicated to it that they don’t know that there are lines that are crossed because that’s part of the hundred and fifty two percent you give. You know, it’s you you allow them to do things that they shouldn’t or whatever. And, you know, the whole the gaslighting is what’s happening there where this this person is grooming them to say, hey, you need this in order to whatever, to achieve this result. You need me to be able to whatever. Whatever I’m manipulating to. And it’s gaslighting. It’s essentially saying, you’re crazy if you do you know, it’s it’s that same idea of like if you don’t do this, you’re not gonna be at your peak.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yeah. I like the word you use manipulation.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s old fashioned, but still, yeah.

Justin:

No, but I mean that’s the underpinnings, right? Of um of the term gaslighting is manipulation. Yep, exactly. And

Mark:

for my benefit.

Justin:

Yep. And then same thing with actresses and stuff like that. And you know, I I think Just to balance slightly, I know that there’s not even gonna go there. I don’t I don’t care care about that. I was gonna say

Mark:

we don’t care about balance.

Justin:

Yeah I was gonna say that I I know the Me Too movement has brought a lot of things to light

Mark:

and

Justin:

most of it is really good. I I don’t know that there aren’t some um some friendly fire or not friendly fire, but um some misfires or some things happening where um it’s based on this movement. There’s a lot more credibility given than maybe should be, but overall I guess like I’m saying I’m not Too sad that um you know it that uh many women are able to come to light and find some healing and also help establish some change in some of these industries that are so geared for allowing gaslighting to happen, you know? Um but yeah just think about actresses too and like a lot of their stories in order, you know, th there’s this perception That is, I would argue, probably given by the gaslighters to say that you cannot succeed in this industry without doing some favors, without whatever. without, you know, making you know, some choices. Yeah, it’s about who you know, it’s about how much they like you, you know, it’s about how much that you’re in with them. And so again, if you if you’re giving 152% to your career, then that fifty-two percent that’s over a hundred is doing things that maybe later you go, you know, that probably didn’t need to be in there. Right. Um anyway, th so those are some of the cultural things that come to mind that for me are just very heartbreaking and kind of true examples of castlighting. You know what I mean? Um, yeah, and then personally, um, like Megan and I have had discussions where um, you know, I’ve I’ve been a part of Celebrate Recovery working on uh my own self, you know, for ten plus years. Right? So it’s uh the cool thing about Celebrate Covery is it’s not just about fixing your addiction, that one thing you came in the door for. I’m an alcoholic, so I gotta go get that s fixed and then I’ll be perfectly normal functioning human being. Sure, if you think so, you know. But it’s really about peeling back the layers of onion and just keep fig you know working on the next thing that you find, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

For me, you know, one of those layers was uh the way that our relationship operated. And there was on my part some gaslighting, some like basically in arguments or whatever when I would get um frustrated or whatever, the way that I would try and get through or get the conversation to get come to my side is like trying to convince her her view was crazy. It’s crazy because here’s why, you know, this kind of idea. And as I read have read some resources or even even before reading about gaslighting, I started to recognize some of those patterns that were just wrong and also Megan alongside me has been part of Celebrate Recovery for those same number of years and been doing her own work to recognize you know, because ’cause part there’s two parts to gaslighting. There’s the gaslighter and this the person being gaslit and if that person can get wise counsel and can get You know, whatever.

Mark:

Yeah, individuality.

Justin:

Yep. Yep. Gain some healthy individuality through supports. Yep. Then they can figure out how to get out of that or start recognizing you calling me crazy doesn’t make me crazy. And so Megan’s been doing that same work, so we’ve kind of come to some crossroads where and it’s been hard because it’s like, you know

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What used to work it doesn’t work anymore. The way we used to deal with things can’t work anymore. And we’ve had to work through that or whatever. Um, and I would almost say that it almost felt like it went full circle like too far to where I stopped trying to argue for my side because I f I didn’t want that Gaslighting thing. And it became to where I could not it almost came to where I was like, am I crazy? Maybe I’m crazy. And that wasn’t the right place to land either. True. And it makes it wasn’t gaslighting me. I’m not gonna say that at all. Like that’s not what it’s about. It was just about. There is a place for each person’s opinions and working them out together.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And um

Mark:

being able to value the differences because they are real. in such a way that doesn’t devalue them. I think that’s a lot of what, you know, coupling, good marriage, good coupling is, is that ability to value who you are and that difference. When I’m able to do that, I believe your relationship can kind of go to the next level. But when I see you your differences as being wrong that that’s handicapping to good relationship.

Justin:

Yeah. And in some cases, obviously, the differences are wrong. Like there is a problem that needs to be resolved, right?

Mark:

Yeah, I’ll I’ll I t the the word wrong um I’m gonna wrestle with. Let’s

Justin:

let’s give an example

Mark:

I’m gonna say there is aspects of un When so let’s let’s put it this way. If I am very insecure, so every time you know my wife talks with a a male person, if I get jealous. Okay, that’s my issue.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Uh you know, I’ll be perfectly honest, but you know, the fact that if if my wife were to basically have a different view where our children are concerned, I believe that’s healthy.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I think that’s part of, and you know, not to, you know, sound sexist, but you know, she is just more nurturing than I am. As a female, I believe she is more nurturing than I am. And I and I think that difference, when I can value that she is just different, designed differently, then I think that’s healthy.

Justin:

You just have too much toxic masculinity flowing through your

Mark:

face. At times, possibly. But that’s not what that was about.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah. No, it’s all good But yeah, I think, you know, so I I appreciate the clarification, you know, to be able to use an example, but

Justin:

Well I have I have an example

Mark:

Sure, go for it.

Justin:

Uh so if like let’s say as the dad, um if my kids do anything wrong, my default response.

Mark:

If your kids do something wrong, I think it’s that’s that’s my that’s my What are we defining as wrong?

Justin:

Um I don’t think um I personally don’t think that’s important for where I’m going.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

But let’s say

Mark:

let’s say unhealthy.

Justin:

Let’s say Let’s say we said they could not do X and when we weren’t looking they did it anyway.

Mark:

Fair enough.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Uh all right. So they did something wrong and that was what it was.

Mark:

All right.

Justin:

And Uh, one of the spouses, usually you know, usually the male is the one in this that does these kinds of things. I know I’ve been guilty of it, but uh not to the degree that I’m about to say. But basically every time they do something wrong, the male goes off He yells top, you know, not top of his lungs, but he’s just yelling and harping every single time. And you see, and the spouse sees that and sees the child’s countenance. you know, lowering and f like basically a whimpering dog. Every single time the kid does something wrong, that same cycle happens, right? Now That needs to be addressed between spouses. I would encourage a wife to say, hey, that’s not acceptable. We we need to correct our children. We need to train them up in the way they should go. We need a discipline. But that’s not working. That’s not the right way to do it. And we need to figure out a way to do it better.

Mark:

That’s a wise, wise wife right there.

Justin:

That is a wise wife, yeah. And then

Mark:

tell him he was doing something wrong.

Justin:

I know, I know. She really picked her words

Mark:

about her words and her behavior. Yes

Justin:

She’s a Proverbs 31 woman for sure. Just to be clear, we’re talking about my wife. So she she’s done this for me. You know, she’s she’s gotten on me about the ways that I’ve um gotten on our kids, you know. And I don’t even know how we are setting all this up, but I think it has to do it sometimes the difference there is a wrong side

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And it and I’m so using this example, there have been times where Megan has said, I don’t think that that way is the right way. And she was right.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I looked at it and said, You’re right. And Um gaslighting is this idea of saying you don’t see X, Y, and Z and Z, you know, A, B, C, you know, all these things. So you can’t even speak to it You know, if you could see all these things that I see, you would uh you would respond the way I am and uh think that it is correct. But unfortunately for you, and I’m sorry, but you don’t see those things and I don’t think you probably can because you don’t have My maleness, whatever it is, you don’t have the X factor that I do. Maybe someday, maybe I can teach you. I don’t know. Like that.

Mark:

And that’s exactly where narcissism will come into play.

Justin:

Sure.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s why manipulation narcissistic

Justin:

are very uh tangential, right? Like and gaslighting is just a way to get there quickly, I think, in today’s culture. But yeah, exactly.

Mark:

Too quickly. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because it’s polarizing again. So

Justin:

you agree it’s a polarizing topic.

Mark:

I do. I do. It’s a polarizing topic. Yes, it is. So yeah, I think it is and yet I think in some ways it comes back to that aspect of manipulation. You know, whether it’s you know, husband-wife, whether it’s me too movement, you know, there is this power dynamic that we want to establish. And unfortunately, we’re not always good at that. Sometimes even the people, you know, even you use a male example, there are wives that may do the same thing. You know, even in the Me Too movement, there are people who will use that movement and just to hurt someone, you know, and that’s that’s the unfortunate part because it calls the whole thing into question.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know what I mean?

Justin:

It discredits it.

Mark:

It discredits it when when in reality I’m in agreement, you know, there there are some cultural dynamics that need to that we need to be aware of and we need to address And I think, you know, it’s it’s very similar, even it kind of brings we we talked about uh gun control, but you know, I still previously, but it’s still the same dynamic. I think those with more responsibility are responsible for protecting those with less responsibility. You follow me? The the the it’s like adults should protect children.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

That kind of thing.

Justin:

Coaches should respect You know, players.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Uh yeah.

Mark:

To where it’s not some

Justin:

directors should

Mark:

I think there is a healthy higher

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and and you know, you can spin that however you want to, but I think, yeah, all those aspects, those doctors were not protecting, you know, the people under their care. You know, and that that is unhealthy. That’s, you know, and that’s where, yeah, I can really feel for those people. And you know, and unfortunately, it will be there will be those who use that system, and there may be, you know, certain doctors who are discredited. you know, wrongly because someone chose to see that as an opportunity for their personal gain.

Justin:

Yeah. Well and to your point too, like there are gonna be examples and have been.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

of people who, like you said, they hear this movement and it’s a good enough fill-in for what their problem is. Like they don’t necessarily have the tools to resolve the issue in their life

Mark:

Or

Justin:

or they would have. And this comes along and you go, you know what, that’s exactly what this is and they redraw the parameters to fit and then they use this thing as the tool for for dealing with their uh conflict. It’s their conflict r resolution mechanism and trigger. And to your point, like that’s not Correct. That’s it you you they’re drawing on something that doesn’t quite fit and making it fit, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh and it’s gonna be unhealthy. Unfortunately, they weren’t healthy enough to resolve the conflict Anyway.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, so it’s like there there is some dime dynamics there where that’s always gonna happen where whatever’s in the what is it, Shaden Freud, the current cultural Dynamic.

Mark:

You got me there.

Justin:

That might not be the word.

Mark:

But it could be.

Justin:

Someone fat curtain. Let’s say it is. Okay. No. Um Anyway, whatever’s in the current cultural dynamic like that the they’re always they’re always gonna latch on to those things as a a way to resolve conflict if they see it working, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So me too is like, well me too. You know, I don’t know that for an example. But

Mark:

But I’m thinking about it in that context whenever there is a form of Uh here again, manipulation, power, control, dynamics in play, you know, I’m gonna use what I have. And if that’s blackmail, if I may use an older terminology, you know, it’s like Okay, I I’m rearranging it because I think you wronged me, so therefore I’m gonna use what I might know about

Justin:

you

Mark:

in such a way that I can shift that power control dynamic and it puts me back in control. You know, and I think, you know, that’s that’s where I think it is healthy to have other people involved, you know. It it and I think that’s what makes marriage difficult is because it’s just two people. Well, our culture sees it as just two people. I believe God’s always involved, you know, from a from a aspect, uh, he’s not always involved, but uh he desires to be involved. You know, and I think, you know, that’s when we can find a source of truth in all the midst of the manipulation and the gaslighting. and we’re able to say, okay, that’s not how I see it. This is how I see it. And how can you recognize that my viewpoint is as important as yours. And we’re able to recognize that As as it will say, if I am in control, I am being the narcissist, and I’m telling you, you know, it’s like you have that ability to come to me and say, hey. Help me understand where all this pride and arrogance comes from that you see you know, granted that wouldn’t be the good way to deal with it, but you know, to be able to address it in a straightforward manner and maybe even bring some other people along. Who are basically able to say, yeah, this is what I’m seeing. You know, and I think that’s where I come into play at times with couples because it’s that ability to have two people. and and bring mediation into it in such a way that minimizes the manipulation, identifies those patterns and cycles that you describe that were unhealthy. And I think, you know, gaslighting is definitely one of those areas where, okay, why what is the purpose behind me trying to convince you so harshly that my way is right?

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Because I believe that’s where that’s the basis for it. Because I want my way.

Justin:

Or that your way is wrong. Like

Mark:

if you’re trying to Yeah, true s I’m trying to convince someone else.

Justin:

I just realized like as you were talking, I was thinking about some of the you know, times in the past where Megan and I would struggle and I would, you know, attempt when the that manipulation, that gaslighting was when I wanted her to think her way was wrong because it was hurting me.

Mark:

Mm, sure.

Justin:

And so uh, you know, it’s easy to say that now but Gaslighting is definitely not the right way to deal with being hurt, you know. But that but that was part of, you know, my thing is like you know, the way you’re doing this is wrong and crazy, you know kind of thing.

Mark:

And I think that’s a good

Justin:

rather than be like you’re hurting me,

Mark:

which

Justin:

felt would feel m emasculating, which is dumb. Like we should be able to communicate that as men It’s, you know, you’re doing a crazy thing. You know, you’re a crazy, you know, like I even think about like a lot of uh You know, like those daytime talk shows, like how they just you’re crazy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

She threw a frying pan at my head. She’s crazy, you know? Instead of saying, you know, you hurt me or whatever. I think that that that so in other words, it’s not just about saying, uh, I’m right. Sometimes it’s about saying you’re wrong. It can be used for a tool for both of those, right? Which

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Are they different? I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah. But I think it what I what I like in that is the fact that you guys were able to talk about that. And I And I like the aspect of being able to recognize when hurt is involved. You you described it yourself, depending on how Megan addressed that. Okay. that aspect of being identified as crazy will quite often shift me to the other end of the spectrum, even though that I’m so so let’s do it. I’ll use an example. Let’s do it this way. Um I’ll put aggressive on one end and passive on the other. Okay? In the middle would be assertive. There’s boundaries, there’s lines. I’m putting my hands up in the air to define this this assertive the ability to say what I see and how I see it is assertive. Okay, but if I’m aggressive, I’m gonna come across you, you, you, you, you did this, you did this, you did this. And a passive person is gonna say, yeah, you’re right, that’s my fault. Neither one healthy Okay, but the the interesting part is if I’ve been hurt by aggression That’s gonna tend to make me a little more passive. But in order for me to become more healthy, toward to move towards the middle for assertiveness, I’m gonna have to appear A little more aggressive, even to get to assertive. You follow me? So and I think that’s the difficult part when we’ve been labeled crazy. you know, and one end or the other, it’s very difficult to start shifting because that’s counter to what I’m comfortable with. That’s counter to what I’m used to. And so when you described that between you and Megan, and she was basically able to say, hey, you know what? The way you’re addressing our kids is a little bit aggressive. That hurts. So the the tendency can be very, well, then I’m just not gonna say anything to our kids at all via the term passive aggressive

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You all, because we have a hard time finding that middle ground that says, okay the the fact that I was wrong and I can promptly admit it. You know, we don’t necessarily do that well. Because the of the hurt that’s involved. when someone is assertive and identifies an issue in us. So, you know, our tendency in human in our humanness is to say, well, I’ll just never do that again.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, but then in in reality that that’s short lived and we’ll quite often go right back to the same old cycle and we’ll be back to being aggressive.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s how even if you stayed over there, like fine. Um button out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s what your new reality is. That’s no more healthy

Mark:

than

Justin:

the other side. We just jumped the shark.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

It’s not the right term, but I like that term. Throwing out.

Mark:

Just has been researching terminology, eh?

Justin:

We need a fact checker on our shows that can be saying you use that term wrong and you jump the shark. Do you know that term?

Mark:

I do not. I wouldn’t see assertiveness as a shark even, but I believe you know what you know what came to mind for me? This is this is a little age fact check. Evil and evil.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

When he ‘s close the I know he uh like jumped a pool in Las Vegas or something.

Justin:

The origin of Jump the Shark comes from happy days when what’s his name? The main character.

Mark:

Fonzi.

Justin:

Fonzi jumps a shark with a motorcycle. And it wasn’t far. But it’s meant to describe the moment a show peaked. and cannot like it’s or even maybe slightly past the peak where it’s like, okay, they jumped the shark. This is this is a little too far. You know, that kind of thing. It used to be better and now it’s trying too hard can’t think.

Mark:

I gotcha. So it’s a drunk trying to ride a horse

Justin:

No. That’s another term though.

Mark:

Yeah. Cause you when you’ve you’ve been on one side, a drunk trying to ride a horse, it’s very difficult for them to stay in the center of the saddle.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

They will typically lean to one side or the other.

Justin:

This is the etymology show. Etymology?

Mark:

It’s uh like analogies.

Justin:

Or it’s not the origin. Orgins.

Mark:

Yes. Sorry. Is it etymology?

Justin:

We just did the etymology of it.

Mark:

What’s the difference between the study of bugs?

Justin:

I don’t know what the study of bugs is, but I’m going to talk about etymology because

Mark:

Are you still?

Justin:

I’m fact checking myself right now.

Mark:

ED E D?

Justin:

No, E-T-Y. Yeah, that’s right. Study of the origin of words. Etymology.

Mark:

Gotcha. Gotcha.

Justin:

We just did etymology on etymology. That’s how etymological this episode is What was that balance on the drunk?

Mark:

Drunk trying to ride a horse.

Justin:

Okay. Is this idea vacillating back and forth? Okay. Interesting.

Mark:

Between passive and aggressive.

Justin:

I think this episode has jumped the shark. Just kidding. I have uh so have you ever heard of Dr. Caroline Leaf?

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

It’s fine if you have.

Mark:

No, well there’s a there’s a person that comes to mind that deals with thought stoppage, but it might not be her.

Justin:

She’s a psychological psychologicalist.

Mark:

Psychologist.

Justin:

Oh, I lost my link. One second. So she she has a great Instagram account where she posts cool things. Sure. Helpful wisdom, that kind of thing. And I came across this one um a while back and I had to redig it up for this when I when I when I want to do this. Um but it’s gaslighting versus disagreement.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

And um which is really cool. So Um and if you’re not familiar with her, she’s great. You should follow her on Instagram, very good advice. A lot of stuff we talk about. She has Great.

Mark:

Already talked about.

Justin:

Yeah, in much better ways. In fact, when I was looking up Essie, I went to her Instagram page and I messaged her and I said we could use you as a guest. Wow. We need you to come talk about some polarized subjects.

Mark:

Cool.

Justin:

She’s not gonna come because she’s much busier than we are.

Mark:

Did she reply?

Justin:

No.

Mark:

Oh no.

Justin:

I don’t think that’s true.

Mark:

Then you don’t know that she’s not gonna come.

Justin:

That’s true. I’m trying to shame her into coming. Well, partly ’cause she’s not gonna hear this episode.

Mark:

But back to

Justin:

I digress. Yes. So I’m gonna kind of walk through some of these differences. It’s in this Instagram post, it’ll be in the show notes, but and you can look at it. It’s nicer visually, but it you’ll get the point. So gaslighting versus disagreement. So she has basically this Vendag Venn diagram, except the circles are not connected, right? So there’s there’s gaslighting which is one thing and disagreement on the other side. So um On the left, she has gaslighting, which is manipulates you into questioning your reality and your sanity.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s the dangerous part of it.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Where disagreement looks like seeing things differently, but recognizing and respecting your perspective.

Mark:

the the person has been gaslighted so much they second guess themselves most of the time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s not just in that one area. It’s like They’re talking with me about what they’re seeing and it’s like, is that crazy?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is that crazy? You know, because they’re second guessing themselves. And and I don’t think we always recognize how I’ll call it diabolical.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that that dynamic can be in relationship if I’m so convinced

Justin:

you’re crazy to think it’s crazy.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s not crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s tough. And it can even happen without a gaslighter. Like some people are naturally gaslight they just gaslight themselves because of the Well how the environment they grew up in, right? May maybe at some point. Some guess

Mark:

themselves.

Justin:

Right. Uh I don’t know.

Mark:

Insecurity.

Justin:

Yep. Could be due to lack of self-esteem and security. It could be for many reasons. It does There doesn’t always have to be a gaslighter, although it certainly helps. Alright, so the next slide. Gaslighting is when they present opinions as facts and the only correct way to look at things. Which again kind of ties in your narcissism. Where disagreement is they are open to learning about your perspective. So it’s here’s how I see it. How do you see it, Mark?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

Yep. Healthy and unhealthy.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

The next slide. They shut down the conversation. This is gaslighters. And blame you for getting too emotional to handle it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Versus they notice things are getting heated and suggest taking a break to cool down.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah

Justin:

Gaslighting is when they attack your perspective and blame you. And disagreement is when they are able to agree to disagree.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? Uh last what? Uh gaslighting is the the goal is to make you question your sanity. And disagreement. Yeah, it does work. And disagreement is the goal is to come to an agreement or have their perspective seen.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So yeah, that’s a really good clear distinction. Like if you if in either side of that equation, um we’ve talked about this before, it’s much easier for someone who’s being gaslit for them to hear us saying, hey listen, if this is happening Pay attention and figure out whether they’re you’re being gaslit or you’re being disagreed with. You know, that sure for someone who’s doing the gaslighting, I would also encourage the same thing, but It’s less likely they’ll listen, right? Kind of that same perspective. But you know, look at that Instagram post and look at how you do your arguments and if you fall more in that left category I would encourage you to work on that and try and shift to that right, you know, that right side of that those diagrams to where you’re you’re learning how to disagree without gaslighting.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um because I also think That is a tool that we learn, gaslighting, that works. It’s like, oh, once they question their sanity, it’s much easier to get my point across and much easier to get the what I want, which I always think is the right thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

So, in our mind Most most people. Mark’s Mark’s thinking about that. He’s like, I don’t know about that though. I think for most of us, right, we’re not We always think we’re right. That’s that’s the tendency is to think my position is the correct one. Everyone else is kinda outside of that. They’re either in line with my perspective or not. And if they’re not, they’re wrong. Instead of the natur the more healthy perspective to say I’m probably right on some things. I probably got some things wrong.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But even if you have the healthy perspective, you have to mostly trust that you have the right perspective, right? Like that’s integrity.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Right. It’s this idea of believ believing what you think and thinking what you believe and acting on what you believe and all that.

Mark:

But I think a person could also just come into a conversation and say, this is what I’m thinking. I’m not sure. Without necessarily saying because I think that person is actually able to hear someone because if a person is a hundred percent convinced that they’re right, they’re likely not asking for influence.

Justin:

Right. So so here’s what I was trying to get to. I was I was gonna say the healthiest individuals believe they’re right. That there’s nothing wrong with believing you’re right. You should believe that you’re right. That that’s that I was trying to say that.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

So that being true, where we all think we’re right, right? Just baseline or else you wouldn’t do what you’re doing. You would change. I get

Mark:

I’m good with it. Keep going.

Justin:

He keeps giving me these looks. Like, I don’t know if I’d go that far. Um, no, it’s good. Yeah, it’s good moderation. But the point is

Mark:

you know, naturally we we mostly think that we’re in the rightally do things that we believe are wrong.

Justin:

Right. Our position we can do

Mark:

we quite often do things. Yeah.

Justin:

That we believe are wrong. Yeah. No.

Mark:

That we think are right when they are. So yeah, I’m don’t mean that.

Justin:

So the point is if that’s true, we all want to you know, believe that we’re right and we want to hold that line, some of us are gonna find unhealthy ways to to accomplish that. And if they’re effective In our mind, they’re not unhealthy because they accomplished the truth. My way.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And then you reinforce those feelings of I’m right when you see others admit they’re wrong because they now think they’re crazy or whatever. And it only reinforces that right so it reinforces this in this thought that I’m always right and other everyone else is wrong because look when when I say this they admit they’re wrong

Mark:

right

Justin:

so clearly I’m more and more right and I need to continue to show everybody how right I am and how wrong they are. Because clearly I’m getting more and more of a monopoly on the truth.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

It’s a it’s kind of a form of bullying.

Justin:

Right, but it again uh you’re you’re like a social justice warrior. Like everyone needs to know these truths because I have them and they don’t unfortunately, and I’m gonna help them. Sure, I see by any means necessary. I’m saying very it’s very rare where that person is thinking I’m a bully, but I like it. It’s more often that they think they are right. They truly believe it. And they think as more and more they get reinforced in that belief, the more they will tend towards bullying because it’s for the greater good.

Mark:

As they see it.

Justin:

As they see it, of course, yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So they get stuck in the these patterns of doing whatever it takes because as I found it works. And when it works I’m proven to be right.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And it’s this reinforcing cycle, right?

Mark:

Sure. Just like chauvinism or something.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. It’s kind of that power dynamic where if your power works to gain you more power, it’s like And and again, most people believe they’re they’re right in their position, so as you ha gain more power the more you can assert your rightness everywhere. In in your mind, that’s it’s all justified by the means. You know, the means is justified because of the result, which is more and more people getting right.

Mark:

my way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So I think I think part of that side of gaslighting is this mechanism that works. that reinforces itself. And so someone who gaslights is gonna continue to do so and probably more and more throughout their life with this particular individual. But also if it works there, there’s no reason they’re not gonna continue to try it in more and more situations. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s my thought.

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

And you see it, Mark.

Mark:

Well, I think I people as you as you’re describing that, yeah. um I feel for the people around that person in long term relationship and yet I’m also thinking of people those individuals who have that characteristic you know, and their ability to maintain long term relationships. Because if they engage with other healthy people Who know how to do recognize the difference between gaslighting and disagreement, they aren’t going to necessarily have a lot of long-term relationships. It’s gonna be the people that

Justin:

‘s the healthy ones.

Mark:

Yes, exactly. The people that it’s gonna be the people that I can you know manipulate short term to get what I want short term and it misses the long term opportunities of healthy relationship.

Justin:

Yeah. And the thing about it, this the kind of the diabolical part of this is it also depends on your charisma.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

So that’s where, you know, some of the uh the Weinstein. Okay. I I I don’t know anything about him. I assume he had a lot of charisma to be that popular in all of the Hollywood circles. Like if you read about that. Like he was top dog. Everyone you know people who didn’t weren’t a part of the manipulation respected him. And the people that were also respected.

Mark:

Sure. Sure.

Justin:

Charisma on top of the dynamic we just talked about.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

So the one we you just mentioned is more about someone who lacks the polish of charisma.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And so they’re gonna their their friend group’s gonna dwindle dwindle and their relations their s healthy relationship is gonna dwindle. in the case of you add a lot of great charisma on top of that. Sure. Now again, their healthy relationships are gonna dwindle as well. Same same thing. But their actual relationship relationships are likely gonna grow.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

as people want to be in that circle.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And that’s even more diabolical in the sense that it’s more convincing that they’re doing the right thing. Although I’d argue that someone with a small circle just says, well, it’s everyone else’s fault. You know, I don’t know. I guess they’re both bad.

Mark:

And I think when you think when when you bring that kind of terminology into it, I do think it’s a grooming that goes into you know play.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, as I, you know, have a certain charisma. Everybody everybody likes me, you know, and then those other individuals who you are trying to manipulate. see all of these other people and they think this person’s wonderful and at the same time they’re not.

Justin:

So I must be crazy to think they’re not.

Mark:

Yeah. And that’s and that’s what all the you know that’s what a lot of your current CIS type shows are about, you know, where this person was able to groom all of these people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet they still had this ring of I’ll just call it terror in general, you know, over certain individuals that they were using to their yeah benefit.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s it’s Sad. Because it’s a real thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I mean, again, Nasser, the Olympics coach, Weinstein, Hollywood. I mean, those are the two examples we’ve been talking about today. But it’s it’s very common in certain circles. Um and it’s just so sad.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Because of a our human nature can allow both of those things to happen.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It can allow us to become gas lighters and it can allow us to be gas lit and manipulated and our human nature is just so fickle. Yeah.

Mark:

I do, I hear you. And I and I think, you know, it’s always in hindsight. in some ways. I think, you know, the parents of those athletes and so forth. You know, it’s typically in hindsight that, you know, I feel so terrible because I recognize that I was manipulated.

Justin:

Yeah. Right. Which adds to the shame cycle.

Mark:

My tendency to now second guess myself across the board.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I was wrong here once, or I was wrong in this six situation, I probably can’t make any decisions now.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

And you can understand how again, how dangerous that is and how Yeah. When that trust is finally recognized that it wasn’t

Justin:

Yeah, just be trust.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because you’ve already been half destroyed.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Now this kind of knocks the rest of the blocks out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, in those situations, the bit biggest and best advice I think we can offer is get counsel, get you know, get counseling, because they ha you have to be rebuilt.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, at that point. And you’re not gonna do it alone.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So the healthiest way to accomplish that is get counseling, I think. But you know, there’s other environments for that.

Mark:

Supports. But

Justin:

supports, yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yep, support environments, support groups. Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah. Well done, Justin. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Justin:

Thank you for learning. Thank you for the learning today.

Mark:

Oh yeah, I’m always good for a surprise topic.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Alright, yeah.

Justin:

Alright, your turn, next surprise topic.

Mark:

Ooh. That’s fair enough. So that’s how we see it

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit dot click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.