0:00
[Music]

0:06
so what other uh we're abing that's right what other polarizing

0:12
topics come to mind is gender

0:18
polarizing based on our culture well by Nature it

0:24
is like uh physically and uh yeah just

0:29
like it is interest an interesting choice of words because we are made to be like different polar in terms of how

0:37
we fit together and I that's physically but I think that's true from the top to

0:42
to the bottom you know sure um you know that's why

0:48
neurologically whole nine yards [Music]

0:57
yeah welcome to how I I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:04
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

1:09
thoughtful [Music]

1:15
conversations that of course I don't mean you know a woman can't do a man's

1:21
job or a man can't do a woman's job you know job quote unquote right sure um

1:27
capability right capability is is not same and of course watching the Olympics it's like there are some women that can

1:35
far surpass anything I could ever do and yet we still have our separation in the

1:41
Olympics right sure which you know of course with transgenderism and stuff like that it's they're it's blurring a

1:48
little bit sure in some cases and it's like well what's fair right but the

1:54
reason they're asking what's fair even in saying should a man who switch to a

2:00
woman you know be able to participate with the women right why are we even asking if that's fair well because we

2:07
recognize there is the there is a clear difference between the amount that's

2:14
able to be accomplished in a men's sport versus a the same Sport with a woman and that's why there's separation in most

2:21
sports do I think no women could compete on a man's level no of course not that's not but there is a distinction there

2:28
that we've come to agree and internalize from the beginning of time and I don't know

2:37
that I don't know anyone who would want to obliterate that completely right and

2:43
yet sometimes that could be the struggle is it's all the same there's no

2:50
different like you don't know anyone who

2:55
wants men and women to be completely equal

3:05
um no I I think I think

3:11
equal rights equal I mean that's kind of obvious but equal opportunities uhhuh

3:19
um but yeah I don't I don't I can't think of anyone that that I believe

3:25
would really say I think everything should be on equal plane across every

3:31
aspect every you know so bathrooms are shared you know whatever I don't know like every single thing the the store

3:38
you shouldn't have a men's of whim section you know it should all just be one area or I I don't think I can so

3:46
where does that picture anyone who would want to flatten that completely where does that agenda come from then which

3:52
one for the fact that you know in the past while we've had this desire to do

4:00
away with that difference

4:07
well I think well I think there's a couple reasons and I think I you know

4:13
obviously I want to hear what you think and just a disclaimer and we've been talking about this that everything we

4:19
say here is how I see it right and and so there's an understanding that we're we're we're just conversating

4:27
about things that we think about and we process sure and sometimes the things

4:33
that we say or we think they're Half Baked right like you'll ask a question on the spot and now I'll have to process

4:40
it and what comes out might be less than half baked it might be raw you know have

4:46
a little Sal vanilla in it and that's okay um because that is

4:51
kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is to like present ideas from a a single

4:57
perspective yeah and then have a conversation from you know the opposite perspective in some cases in some cases

5:03
we we have the same perspective but well I think it's important to be able to say

5:09
yeah some things I feel very strongly about in how I see and that may come

5:14
across as arrogant or it may come across as I'm the one that has the answer and

5:22
and that's not our desire in this context like you said we're having a

5:28
conversation in such a way challenges one another and we might even have strong opinions that come

5:34
across it sometimes but it's in a it's in a desire to share and say okay this

5:40
is how I see it tell me how you see it right and am I am I able to is this the

5:45
whole picture or is this just a side of the end of the elephant if you will I

5:52
see a trunk you see a tail M so you know at that point is it even an elephant if

5:59
what you see is so much different than I do and I think that's where these you know topics come into play yeah is

6:06
there's so much broader than we can do in a you know 20 40 minute segment but

6:12
yet there's a desire to have that conversation yes well said I amum I'm a

6:20
software developer I've been doing that for a little over a decade now and

6:26
there's been this there's this concept or this saying that I've heard in software development that I've kind of

6:33
that kind of applies here and it's uh it's it's strong op strong opinions held

6:40
Loosely so essentially like in software development there are paradigms for how

6:45
you code how you develop you know how you build things and they are very you know depending on the Paradigm you're

6:52
following most of them are strong opinions right like it should always be this way you should write your code in

6:58
this manner you should use this and not that this is the correct way right mm um

7:04
and I think you know the ethos is let's hold to this until something's better MH

7:10
because it provides structure it provides um uh consistency across the

7:17
codebase etc etc anyway software aside I feel that same

7:23
way about life in general like I have strong opinions mhm but I like to

7:30
I like to pretend they're loosely held I like to assume I'm willing to have this conversation right Mark that we have and

7:37
we can come to a new understanding we can modify that strong opinion or even back

7:44
down on it you know as has happened in the past between us where it's like oh that's a good point that I haven't

7:51
thought about that and um I think sometimes strong opinions can can scare

7:57
people off right like it can be whoo whoa whoa I don't need you telling me

8:03
what it is or whatever and I'm not sure that's how I I don't feel that way at all like there there's so many things

8:09
that I have such a strong opinion about but I'm like but I could be completely full of it right I like I could be

8:16
making this I am making this up wait a second but I still feel it strongly I

8:21
Intuit it and um my personality type I've taken a few personality tests and

8:27
intuition is pretty high that doesn't mean I know everything just so everyone knows I

8:33
don't know everything um no but it's there this idea that a person doesn't necessarily know all the things but they

8:40
have an intuition about which direction to go which direction to head if that makes sense and of course intuition can

8:47
be wrong so often and but that's but I lean on that and then I run with it and

8:53
it's treated me pretty well in my life in terms of progression and in terms of

8:58
relationship sh and in terms of most things I can't I can't think of

9:03
a part of my life where my intuition has uh like drastically failed me except

9:11
in areas of resentment okay uh that has failed me there plenty of times where I go I know

9:17
what this person is thinking and I know and and so I've learned to go I don't

9:22
really trust you intuition here um but for most things I

9:28
I'm willing to trust my because your intuition is multifaceted yeah you have it in C you may have intuition where

9:35
Finance is concerned you may have a certain intuition where spirituality thing spiritual things are concerned um

9:42
even a relationship to a certain degree but there may be those areas and and I and I'm I think in our culture as I

9:50
think about you know areas where intuition um as we talk about gender even

9:56
pornography can be an area where my intuition may be completely off based on my

10:02
exposure mhm because it it becomes tainted Y and I and I'm and I'm and I

10:09
guess that's where I'm at to a certain degree is how has gender the aspect that

10:16
we are created if I may say so male and female how how has that becomes such a

10:24
tainted area in our culture MH or is it it is it

10:30
an area that maybe isn't that tainted most people from your intuition

10:36
perspective hold to the fact that yes there are benefits and yet at the same time it

10:44
seems like there's this conflict you know Y and and I and I

10:50
think I see it and I'm here again I don't want to

10:55
overgeneralize but I think I see it more so in the adolescence that I worked

11:02
with yeah this confusion that is there over you know

11:09
gender and at times you know even even sexual preference playing into that that

11:16
there's a what I would call there's a well I think there's a

11:22
healthy confusion you know from an adolescent

11:27
perspective that's qu qu unquote normal but I think our our culture has made it

11:33
to where you know yeah that confusion is normal but at the same time I think our

11:39
culture has taken that confusion and said well then you might need to consider that you're you know you need

11:46
to consider an alternative lifestyle at this point in this confusion and I think

11:51
it it brings to that point the um the intuition how that's counter to the fact

11:57
that yeah growing up adolescence is tough and I think there

12:03
are parts of our human human design that

12:09
are counter to well this is the way that it is and yet it where we always look for

12:17
that option that says okay but it's not the way that it has to be and sometimes

12:23
that can lead us down a road towards greater confusion than the ability to say okay I

12:30
see the structure I see the design I see the purpose I'm not sure I completely

12:35
understand it all but I can recognize there might be a greater purpose in this than I'm realizing in the moment MH does

12:44
that make sense it does yeah I think I think in some ways and I I I'll look to

12:49
you at this um I see it in some ways like a tattoo you follow me because I think as

12:58
as a person who has many tattoos you know I I can look at and say okay yeah those all have meaning to you and yet to

13:06
go out and get you know make up my mind that I'm going to get a tattoo at 13 14

13:12
15 that might not be the most beneficial time for me to make that decision

13:18
because there's going to be a lot of life that is going to be made you know decisions that I might make that I think

13:25
are wonderful or great right now but that might not benefit me long term and

13:32
it may not even be something that I want to have as a part of my life you know

13:37
years down the road yeah and trying to remove it at that point is painful yes

13:44
and yeah and there are many people who already know you with that tattoo like

13:49
yeah and you can't escape that version of yourself you know if you decide to change or you know like remove the

13:57
tattoo yeah you know yeah it's

14:02
tough yeah and you you're your question earlier was you

14:08
know what where's this coming from and I think the answer is way too multifaceted

14:15
to cover in a single session but I think there are some pieces of it that I I

14:21
would like to speak to and one is the poisoning of the well right where the

14:26
structure as it is has has worked well for many things

14:31
okay and then there are places where it's failed and that's normal and then

14:36
there are places where it's just down downright evil right and because we're

14:43
human and we're we sin and we have a sinful nature we tend to take anything

14:49
good and and we can make bad out of it that's that's that's part of part of our un unfortunate uh nature

14:58
and so I think you know the patriarchy right this whole idea has been like that's

15:06
that's a big rallying cry down with the patriarch

15:11
right this idea that this structure as it is needs to change and I do think it

15:16
has a lot to do with the poison in the well and like you said hurt people hurt people and hurt people who have been

15:23
hurt tend to run in different directions we said earlier and I think

15:29
again there have been so many men in throughout the course of history and even so many men I know in my own life

15:36
through stories and testimonies that celebrate recovery and all kinds of things that have abused their

15:43
position and as a result done evil in one way or another and it can be taking

15:49
advantage of someone financially as a boss it could be uh you know as evil as

15:56
rape it could be uh in a marriage set up where there's a codependency

16:02
there and and the man has full control and he's unwilling to relent with some

16:07
of that it could be you know you name it right it could be the bullies in the schoolyard who's you know like I guess I

16:14
have to play this roll out I'm a bully who beats people up or else you know what am I kind of thing I don't know

16:20
like there's so many places where the structure as it is has been Twisted to

16:26
become evil and as a result if you're the victim of that evil you want that

16:31
thing to go away from the top to the bottom and and redo it in a way that's

16:36
safe and so I think that's a big part of it and there's so much of that that of

16:41
course I agree with the doing away with doing away with some of the structures

16:47
that allow that evil to persist now I I'm not I don't believe

16:54
that there's no value in the patriarchical system right of like

16:59
um I don't believe there's no value there but I can understand someone who does believe there's no value there if

17:05
that makes sense if I can empathize with their position and go yeah this this

17:10
system has done nothing good for you well I can totally understand the perspective that has done nothing good

17:17
for you right while also understanding that everything has nuance and so we

17:24
tend to take it take for granted the the things of the current system that

17:30
benefit us and not necessarily give credit to it for being that system

17:36
gotcha and so we say we this whole system has to go away and there's many

17:42
examples in history where where we where we said that right someone made that

17:47
stand someone made that de declaration waged war against the current system they won and guess what they lost the

17:54
benefits of the past system now they gained some of the benefits of their new one but recognizing like oh that whole

18:02
benefit came as a result of that system and we can't reproduce it in this one does that make sense I'm I'm being very

18:08
vague in general but I I believe intuitively that this is a thing that has occurred throughout history and even

18:15
between regimes of government right or um you know someone comes in and takes

18:20
over a government and says we're going to redo it this way and they have these rallying cries and then they they change

18:26
the system to mod modify it towards that understanding and belief and it then the impression moves from this corner of the

18:33
country to this corner yeah right yeah and I and um and as you're saying that

18:38
as we're you know kind of walking through this this gender Dynamic you're

18:44
um you know feminism may become one of those things that kind of comes to mind to kind of bring it back to the gender

18:51
dynamic because if I and and I think that even itself you know as a father of

18:59
a young girl you know a young adult yeah you know I think of you know how I think

19:07
of feminism on a Continuum if you will it's not that you know it has to all be

19:15
one end where we just rail against everything and we want to wipe out ma

19:22
everything masculine mhm and I think like you were saying earlier so much of

19:28
that depends on my view of masculinity based on how I've been

19:35
treated by males yeah and if I desire to

19:41
you know if I if I had a negative experience I might desire to you know

19:48
emasculate all things male from my Arena mhm and I don't think that's

19:55
always healthy like you're saying you know to do away with one at the cost of

20:01
the other and I and I guess that's the that's the part of me that that wrestles

20:06
with okay how can we take this uh I'll call it healthy design of being created

20:15
male and female how can we take that and make

20:21
it not necessarily just palatable but how and and and maybe even

20:28
make it is the wrong word but have it be

20:34
appealing in in a such a way that says okay there is a purpose in this there is

20:40
a design and that design is healthy when

20:45
we take these genders and view them from a healthy design perspective not

20:52
necessarily a flawed human perspective which we live I realize I'm getting a

20:58
little maybe a little deeper philosophically but it's still something that I I wrestle with in this um and

21:07
this how I see it as a male and yet I desire for there when I'm working with

21:15
you know ladies or you know uh young girls who have been you know raped as

21:22
you said or you know abused in some way that completely affects that gender

21:29
perspective it makes perfect sense but yet there's a part of me that says okay

21:35
how can we recognize that you know it that's not everyone that's that there

21:43
are males out there who are human of course but yet desire to

21:50
Value the things that are feminine yeah and value that in such a way that says

21:56
okay you're unique you're special it's not that you were just created for my

22:02
specific enjoyment or the ability to abuse mhm because I think that's where

22:08
the hurt people just hurt people again yeah in that Dynamic and I and I and I I

22:14
guess for me where this comes from as I stop and think about it I uh probably

22:20
have a maybe a it's not a unique perspective but my perspective on the

22:26
genders are that God himself was just so is not was but I think about it from a

22:34
creation God is so big you know and there is so much of who God is that

22:43
cannot be just reflected in male or female the part of being created male

22:52
and female re reflects God's image in such a way that there's so much of him

23:01
it can be reflected in both male and female and that's and that's a wonderful

23:07
god-given design and I just I just it uh

23:13
frustrates me MH when that gets hijacked

23:18
in some way by our human design yeah or the intent to compress it into a

23:26
normalized middle ground yes loses some of the value of the the outer ground

23:32
right the immensity of it yeah yeah because I I you know and I and I

23:39
guess that's where you know and and so much of that rolls out from into you know identity and purpose and you know

23:47
even even just security and you know and even as I say those words I I think about how you know men and women would

23:57
hear those words and they'd look at them so completely differently yeah but yet

24:03
you know identity is a part of every person's role and how do we walk through

24:09
that and how do we embrace you know that god-given identity and yet in such a way that

24:17
values and and still recognize we live in a in a human Fallen World to a

24:23
certain degree that desires to hijack that design and I guess that's

24:29
where the passion for me comes from in that you know okay what do we do with

24:35
this yeah I um I mean you mentioned a few things and

24:44
well you know one of the buzz phrases that came to mind was toxic masculinity right yes and U yeah

24:53
I and also the other thing that I was thinking about is the me too movement right okay that happen

24:59
a couple years ago of course it's still going on but uh I saw some

25:06
unfortunate reactions to that and it really bummed me out especially coming

25:13
from people that I believe are you know Believers in Jesus and like they

25:21
follow and all that to say I was very much for this is good this is important

25:28
more speciic to happen um just like you know what the me too movement is right yeah so essentially um and you're

25:35
lumping the two together for the most part is that correct when you say toxic masculinity and me so that was kind of a

25:42
segue into the MEO Mo but yeah essentially there there toxic masculinity exists everywhere because

25:49
we're human and you know what I mean yeah um and so what I mean by toxic

25:55
masculinity I'll give a few examples and it exists where because we're human yeah

26:00
so when you say that there are males who will make the

26:07
masculine Dynamic distasteful because of their the way they treat other people when you say

26:14
it's everywhere help me understand a way that I can see toxic masculinity around me that's fair um well and what because

26:22
I think what it what it is to Define it is different than just having another

26:28
label right you follow me right yep that's what I want to that's good um and

26:34
by everywhere I don't necessarily mean every human being exhibits it what I

26:40
mean is it's pervasive and so bullies is a perfect example of that now not every

26:45
bully is a a man sure but there's this I

26:50
think that's a direct product of pro you know toxic masculinity where uh the

26:57
masculinity is is exhibited in terms of exerting strength over weaker people

27:02
right and when a Max masculinity is associated with that okay it's toxic

27:10
every time when you exert your strength over the weakness of another it's toxic

27:16
right or the never fail Dynamic of like I'm a man and I can't let you down or

27:23
whatever that is toxic because sometimes you have to fail sometimes you have to

27:28
drop to your knees sometimes you have to surrender and that's the most manly thing you can do but toxic masculinity

27:36
says never give up never die right um or uh competition right toxic masculinity

27:44
says if you win I lose and that's true of you know other men it's also true of

27:50
women it's true in the corporate ladder it's this idea that um I'll do what it takes to get ahead and I think again

27:57
that's not unique to toxic masculinity but I think there's I see larger

28:02
portions of it in in the masculine side than the feminine if that makes sense yeah I hear where you're coming from so

28:08
those are some just some examples does that yeah help when when it's just a

28:14
question that comes to mind when you see it in a feminine from a from a female is

28:21
it still toxic masculinity at that point I I mean nothing's Universal but I

28:26
definitely think there very clearly could be roots in it right okay where it was modeled and you

28:33
say if I want to get ahead I have to be like a man and a man does this right or

28:39
um and that could be a couple Generations removed where you're like my mom was this way you know what I mean

28:45
and so I have to be like that and potentially the mom you know got the transgenerational dynamic where it's

28:50
passed down yeah but I definitely think I I believe that more of it stems

28:56
from the male side than the female so in some ways if I'm hearing you correctly

29:01
it's like toxic masculinity has been well chanism MH to

29:07
a certain degree has been relabeled yeah yeah that's good because

29:14
I mean what we're talking about this moment like you say in a lot of cases wouldn't be any different than chauvinism where the corre the man just

29:21
knows best yeah yeah and there's there you know a woman's role is in the home

29:28
right and that's it that's all and and we clearly know that that's not all

29:34
right that females can do or in the in that phrase are good for okay not the

29:40
sound kind I'm just repeating the phrase clarification there that's the chauvinism right y right so in some ways

29:50
that has been relabeled but yet it's taken on a little

29:56
more Nuance perspective of toxic masculinity MH so and and and I

30:03
guess that's where as I'm processing this with you and I you know I I realize

30:09
people out there can't necessarily see my gears turning but I'm sure you can

30:14
but uh I'm if you turn a certain way I see him yeah but and I guess that's

30:19
where it comes back to maybe from this human design is you know yes maybe a

30:25
female may have learned that you know some transgenerational I could I could

30:31
pass toxic masculinity down to my daughter but does that make it you know

30:36
toxic masculinity for her or does that just make it pride and arrogance I think

30:41
that goes yeah sure what I think that I was going to say I think that that's

30:47
when you bring up the word patriarchy that's when the system is the problem

30:52
right like that's when it's pervasive throughout the system so the third generation still getting the result of

31:00
the system right and that's where they would say that's why we have to dismantle the system because even you

31:07
know even Daughters of a third generation are receiving the the the

31:15
problems of the system right um it reminds me of that scripture that says

31:20
you know sin to the fourth generation you know but there is a freedom that

31:26
comes through you know following Christ in in that Dynamic it just as you share

31:32
that just that that verse comes to mind I don't necessarily quote it well but yet I yeah how do being able to

31:41
recognize that yes what I don't deal with in my own life will have a

31:48
far-reaching impact probably greater than I realize in that momentary desire

31:54
to do things the way I've always done them because this is what I was taught to do y and that's why it's so important

32:03
to work to break that generational sin the generational curse so you know even

32:10
as like any men listening right this we need to understand that there are

32:16
aspects to the system that are wrong and we should not continue

32:22
to make them persu you know persist in our own lives we should work to fight

32:28
that we should work to say no I don't believe I'm better than a woman or I don't believe I have to um you know

32:35
stomp on people to get to the top or we have to fight those things that you know

32:40
chauvinism Andor toxic masculinity and I think I I love what you said about it's

32:46
just a rebranded chauvinism because I haven't heard that word in a long time right and I think you're right I think

32:52
it's just a new generation's way of saying chauvinism right yeah uh which

32:57
which you go back a little bit you know further chivalry was the word and that

33:03
was the inverse right like don't be not chivalrous right like uh but I think

33:09
that that was the code if you will for being masculine is that you treat you you opened the door for ladies not that

33:16
they can't open the door for themselves but it was a a a not a show isn't the

33:23
right word but it was a demonstration of respect a difference yeah yes a

33:29
difference I like that word as well and it it's funny as as we as we think about

33:34
this this re shifting um adjacent

33:39
opportunity is what comes to mind and that's really a fancy way of saying uh adjacent opportunity would be what the

33:47
elevator was to skyscrapers in the 1920s okay so we wouldn't have had

33:53
skyscrapers for 200 stories if the elev hadn't been invented prior to that or

34:00
around that time you follow me I'm I'm because because one isn't going to

34:06
happen without the other that's the adjacent opportunity something happens

34:12
and I and I think for me that adjacent opportunity that our culture has is to

34:19
Value the differences in our genders right it wasn't I mean for me personally

34:26
it wasn't until I began to recognize the value in the difference the value in the

34:34
difference between my wife and I when I was under the when I was in that process

34:40
of saying man she's just weird and that's wrong that wasn't there was no benefit

34:47
there was no value but when I was able to see okay the fact that security is

34:52
important to her and that comes into finances and it comes and I'm not saying

34:57
females like that but to be able to value that security in such a way that

35:03
says okay she's not complaining she's not even really criticizing she's just

35:09
sharing a concern and when I can see that as a concern that's my adjacent

35:15
opportunity I have an ability to see things differently and there's so much

35:21
more opportunity there yeah uh it's a value Stephen he talks about that in

35:29
terms of synergy right it's 1+ 1 doesn't equal 2 1 plus 1 equals three right so

35:35
that's kind of similarity or adjacent opportunity but this idea that when we're together me and my wife we're so

35:41
much better than we're apart yeah and that's you know that gets into marriage or whatever but I I do believe that's

35:46
true and I think one thing you you slightly hinted at you said it's not to say that all women are good at that or

35:53
whatever I think that part especially when it comes to marriage is

35:59
like so many marriages fit together different ways right like yeah in some marriages the woman is better at doing

36:05
the finances and so she does and the man does other things and vice versa other marriages it's kind of flip-flopped and

36:13
um I yeah so I don't think any woman is the same or different or whatever

36:19
they're all different and so is every man sure and in some

36:24
cases there's value in the difference right and those differences can fit differently depending on the

36:30
relationship and that's okay too yeah cuz I think what you're if I may what you're describing are

36:37
roles yeah and roles don't necessarily define gender right right right because

36:44
we can enter into this relationship or we can actually value I have you know I

36:50
can remember you know many women that I grew up with you know from a

36:56
construction background who I would just as soon work with as many men you know and you know

37:03
to where yeah I'm I'm recognizing that yeah it's not a limiting factor and yet

37:10
there is this abundance of roles that both genders can have yeah and I think

37:18
that's where sometimes that that hijacking if you will wants to

37:23
take it and say no we can do do this but you can't you

37:29
can do I can do this but you can't you know and I think that's where we're

37:35
we're we're no longer talking about gender at that point we're talking about a role and I want to be the only one

37:43
that can do this when in reality yes you can do this as well as I can and maybe

37:50
even better which probably is part of that insecurity in me saying okay I have

37:56
to come back to this role that says you can't M and I think that becomes that chauvinism toxic

38:02
masculinity type thing that basically says okay there isn't room

38:08
enough and I and and I guess that's where I I

38:14
differ from I differ from our culture that says we have to be defined by rules

38:20
Goa yeah yep I there's a couple things I thought of when you're saying because

38:26
you were saying our there there are natural strengths to each gender right

38:31
sure you would argue I would argue and I I think most people intuitively would admit that right um but I also think

38:39
there are weaknesses you know and that's where the toxic masculinity can be born out of those weaknesses

38:46
right help me understand that when you say there are weaknesses can you get um

38:52
like it's as a result of a man being a man you're likely going to strugle

38:57
struggle with things that a woman won't you know or or

39:03
vice versa and so like a woman for example many many many many women

39:08
struggle with self value self-worth in terms of Beauty in terms of that and that's you know that's pervasive through

39:14
our culture and I mean before I move too far into this we could totally blame the

39:20
patriarchy and say well it's because man has always demanded that women present

39:25
themselves you know whatever I hear the point is a man can just loaf around

39:31
wearing whatever he wants and doesn't care about his image and it's okay right

39:36
where a woman is like if I do that I feel like I'm slob you know and of

39:41
course again this is not all women we know that you know

39:46
but most women that I know of sure your experience how you my experience yes how

39:52
I see it right it is this struggle of like how do I present myself and how does it determine my worth you know

40:02
and yeah and and that's a that's a that's a struggle that's unique to that

40:08
gender gender and again I recognize that there could be listeners who would say yes but that's

40:14
only because of the system sure um I don't believe that's true but whatever and I think well and and if I may I

40:21
think the balance of that I agree with what you're saying you know how image can be you know something that females I

40:30
think power is another balance to that in men you know and I think of um John

40:36
eldrid his Wild at Heart you know and the wounds that are passed on the hurts

40:42
that are passed on basically a a female desire would be am I pretty enough am I

40:49
beautiful I'm twirling in my in my dress you know am I

40:55
attractive whereas I do think you know that that boy growing up am I strong

41:02
enough you know and I think those are the things that we wrestle with and I

41:08
think it's so important that you know I think it's so important to see how God

41:13
has designed us from this male female to say probably no I'm not strong enough as

41:19
a man so therefore I need some help and it's in recognizing that I'm not strong

41:25
enough that I can enter into to this relationship number one with God and yet

41:31
number two with other men who basically help me develop healthy

41:39
masculinity to be able to recognize no Mark that that's chauvinism

41:44
okay that's that's sin MH but yet being

41:49
able to be chivalrous to be able to value that there is this inherent

41:56
difference between being being male and female and it's not for me to exploit but for me to value and appreciate much

42:04
like God does any of his female design in that ability to say yes you are

42:10
valuable just the way you are made up not made up dressed up not dressed up

42:15
you're valuable just like you areh and it's not about being pretty enough for

42:23
anyone because I think you're beautiful just the way you are I've created you

42:28
that way and I think that's a that's a healthy thing for I think sometimes you

42:35
know as I'm even thinking about this I think God can factor into that that God

42:40
equation if I may factors in well he's just this and this and this and we put

42:45
him in that same bottle that says well you know and that's that's another topic

42:52
for another time but uh yeah so yeah I appreciate you sharing

42:57
on this this gender stuff because I think you know our culture has made it something

43:04
that can be polarizing MH and I just uh I guess that's that's the desire I have

43:12
is to be able to recognize the value in it and how both sides can recognize it

43:21
as a part of design and and see the value in it

43:27
well this is a great segue into the this the idea of this podcast or whatever is

43:34
so often we value our side and devalue the other side right whatever the

43:41
polarized topic found the difference I know I see that and so gender I mean

43:46
it's very much we've seen that you know obviously you know men have had the

43:52
upper hand in most right cultures and it's like this is the better side this

43:57
is we we want to pull things this direction or whatever and then vice versa you know I think no you guys are

44:05
toxic and it's all broken and we need to pull this way and the truth is somewhere

44:11
in the middle right which is there is value to both sides which is essentially

44:16
what you very eloquently said but that's so true of so many of these topics and

44:22
like you said they're on a Continuum and so the truth is not always right in the middle I hear you I recognize that right

44:31
um and in terms of the gender conversation I've heard a lot more

44:37
compelling arguments in the last 10 years about how there's some things that need to change on the masculine side

44:44
than the feminine side and so for me that Continuum is I'm a little on that

44:50
feminism side of like I support change I

44:56
support better educating our males to be

45:01
real men I support taking away those

45:07
implicit quote unquote rights they have to oppress and to be the bully in the

45:12
schoolyard you know I support dismantling some of that system for the

45:17
sake of teaching our men to be better men right sure but I I also recognize

45:24
and I guess I should say I am not willing to say the whole system needs to come down and and and that whole down

45:30
with the patriarchy or whatever there is so much value in the current system that

45:35
gets lost in these conversations and the only way we're

45:41
going to find out some of those values is to dismantle it and go oops we

45:47
probably shouldn't have done that right yeah because I do believe there's purpose uh in in the design um and again

45:57
so you also mentioned adjacent opportunity and it made me think about opportunity right which is this idea

46:03
that I want there to be equal opportunity for my daughters and you you mentioned having a a young adult

46:09
daughter and just how that changes our perspective it changes how I see it right because now I look at the

46:16
opportunities available to my son versus my daughter and I go that doesn't seem right I want her to have the same

46:22
opportunities and thankfully I think she has every opportunity right and I I don't I

46:29
don't I don't even believe we have to let the system say Define what

46:35
opportunities we have I think we can still work hard like uh I was reading about a referee in the NFL as a woman

46:42
and she she got into that it's like she wasn't willing to let the system tell her she couldn't be a referee in the NFL

46:49
you know and that to me is so cool because it's like the system's always going to oppress somebody or keep

46:55
somebody down but we don't have have to honor that system we can fight to to

47:01
push through it right break break the glass ceiling whatever that is right is yeah yeah so I'm hopeful for my

47:10
daughter that she'll break a few glass ceilings that she'll get through kind of that perceived limit of what a woman can

47:16
do in a particular role and say nope she's going beyond that because there's no reason she should have to stop there

47:22
and she's going to fight for it she's going to work for it and she might have to work harder than my son and I'm

47:29
thankful for that for her because the character it's going to produce is going to be so valuable now at the same time

47:35
do I wish she didn't have to work as hard sure but I also recognize the value

47:40
in in it and it's just it's it's very nuanced right so you bring up a an

47:46
interesting design because you both you mentioned we were both um fathers of

47:51
females and like you say do you do you raise your son differently

47:57
because of that perspective well before having a son I

48:03
didn't think it would be that different I gotta and I think that's where you know the very clearly clear

48:11
designs come through when your son doesn't pick up dolls he picks up cars and no one taught him that yeah it's it

48:19
I that was that was very striking to me with my son because I had two daughters of course yeah and you know it was I

48:26
think my youngest was about three when we so and my oldest was seven um when we

48:33
had him something like that I don't want to do the math right now it's okay U so no one quote me on this Megan if you're

48:40
listening I'm sorry if I got when you listen when you listen that's right um

48:46
but yeah so when when he was born was like I had this pattern of parenting that I had developed right and it kind

48:52
of a lot of it changed and it was like this is different and and I wouldn't have guessed it and I certainly wasn't

48:59
trying to make it different and it certainly wasn't because of the culture he was in he was too young to be part of

49:04
any culture if that makes sense he wasn't in any systems yet you know and just seeing how parenting shifted in

49:12
some ways where there were some things you had to say less with him and some things you had to say a lot more with him right sure that than than my

49:19
daughters it's just it's very fascinating so yeah that I don't know if that answered your question no it does I

49:24
mean and I but when you said it I was I was just thinking about us both having females and you know I have a son as

49:32
well and I and I guess in some ways I would say that that has impacted the way

49:39
that I raised my son yes because I want him to be able to value and I and I for

49:47
me that I look at that as a gift because if I if I had had two sons I might have

49:53
missed out I I mean I grew up as one of two two boys my parents had and I and I

50:00
just think about how you know a female in that equation would have made it different not right or wrong but just

50:07
different and I'm and I'm thankful you know but yet I think there's something to be said even if I would have had two

50:13
boys that there's a value in being able to say okay and I'll just use you know a

50:21
Joe as a son's name you know it's like Joe okay this isn't that's that's not the way we treat treat you know girls

50:28
it's not the way we treat ladies you know in a way that values them and I and

50:34
I would have hoped that I would have shared that you know when I saw it and you know whether I had two sons or

50:41
whether I had a son and a daughter or whether I had two girls you know this this ability to as I see it

50:49
value the other gender mhm so that's how I see it that's how I

50:56
see it it thanks

51:02
[Music] Mark hey thank you for listening to our

51:09
podcast if you like how I see it please do all the things that podcasts tell you

51:15
to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

51:20
and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out the email

51:26
is is us at how I see it doclick yep I said dot click as in dot c l i c k

51:37
please tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

51:43
[Music]