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[Music]

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can you repeat your uh fantasy quote sure I can because uh I think it's important to recognize that uh gratitude

0:13
is an attitude that's good why did you say that well because I think it's something

0:20
that can be developed even in the midst of our

0:26
cultural circumstances at times I think you know there is I guess what I come

0:32
back to is regardless of social media news outlets you know friends family I

0:40
think there is a a dynamic that makes it difficult at times to remain grateful or

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[Music]

0:56
thankful welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:03
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

1:11
[Music] conversations and I think that is a choice that you know in the midst of our

1:18
circumstances where you know uh what's going wrong tends to be what is focused

1:26
on at times you know social media that kind of thing and I think you know there is that aspect of how how do we offset

1:35
that in our personal lives in such a way because uh I guess I just I just see a

1:42
lot of in what I do I just see a lot of the anxiety that comes with the fear you

1:49
know and I'm not I'm not saying those people or people who

1:54
struggle with anxiety have an attitude problem that's I'm not not going there

2:01
and yet I can also recognize how when individuals make a practice or have a

2:09
discipline of gratitude it does kind of transform the way I view my life there's

2:16
a lot of research I didn't necessarily bring but there's a lot of research you know connected to you know

2:23
neuroplasticity and you know and gratitude and those kind of things and I

2:28
and I think that is that can become an

2:34
transformative attitude that we have your thoughts yeah I uh you mentioned

2:41
science and there's a a science podcast I like to listen to sometimes called the hberman labs I think I've referenced it

2:48
before but um he actually talked about this once um he calls it a gratitude

2:53
practice okay he talked about he's a professor he he's super smart I'm not

2:59
going to cral I don't remember what they but they're pretty significant and he you know he kind of does these Deep dive

3:06
episodes on different aspects of our health okay and so he did one on gratitude and he called it a having a

3:12
gratitude practice is significantly impactful to your health in your mental health and he talked about all the

3:18
different ways basically the chemicals and all these things sure that are happening the neuroplasticity that you

3:25
mentioned all these things and so we can link to that in the show notes but show notes but the point is there are science

3:31
to prove that gratitude is healthy sure you know in so many aspects of our our

3:38
our health not just our physical health but our mental health as well and almost

3:44
any practice of recovering right whether it's recovery like from addiction or

3:51
recovery in terms of counseling recovery from from trauma or whatever involves

3:57
some sort of gratitude practice some of listing good and focusing on good right

4:03
yeah in in my experience do you feel that way too yeah yeah I think we have to and and I I think it's important to

4:11
clarify is gratitude isn't just a polyana type thing positive you know

4:18
thinking Dynamic you follow me that ignores all the bad right and you know

4:25
to but it's a it's in spite of all the that is negative or unhealthy I can see

4:34
that there's also good and you know and I recognize you

4:39
know it's not necessarily always you know in people you know and and recognizing that God is good you know in

4:46
that process and yet in the midst of this difficult circumstances there are

4:53
these Silver Linings if you will you know behind the gray clouds that we can

5:00
tend to be able to see if we want to look for them and I and I think you know

5:06
the for me I think it becomes a a dynamic that I see routinely even in you

5:13
know relationship or marital relationship of how difficult it becomes

5:19
to overcome negative interactions you know once we've

5:24
developed a blame cycle or you know once we're into this aspect of Defense iess

5:30
it's very difficult to shift that in such a way well even here again

5:36
statistically you know it's takes five to 10 positive interactions John gotman

5:43
and his research you know there's different people it's anywhere's between 5 to 15 but usually I'll use 5 to 10 5

5:51
to 10 positive interactions to offset one negative or one complaint and when I

5:59
think about that I think about you know in our conflicted relationships how

6:05
often has it shifted to the opposite we focus on well if you do this if you do

6:11
this if you did this well why didn't you do that and it's like oh you did that well I yeah I kind of noticed but you

6:16
should have been doing that anyways you follow me it's we we have this tendency to offset now we have a tendency to Get

6:24
It reversed is what we do yeah and we think we're going to improve something by focusing on the negative

6:31
characteristics of it and I think that's where gratitude comes into play yeah that's good when

6:38
we're able to shift that in such a way that says oh wow you mowed the lawn

6:43
today thanks I just noticed when I came in or you know hey thanks for doing the dishes or you know hey it was a good day

6:51
it was a long day but yet there was a lot of good work that was done today

6:56
even in the the length of it I may be tired but the the tiredness was a aspect of

7:06
blessing because of a good day of productivity or of sorts for depending

7:11
on you know what you do for your living I guess is where I'm coming from yeah

7:17
you so that's one aspect of practicing gratitude is doing the mental work

7:24
sometimes mental gymnastics to figure out the good the good of the situation you're looking

7:31
kind of the Redemptive qualities and and speaking to the Redemptive qualities

7:37
of your shoulder need a little redeeming this morning I'm not going to complain about

7:42
my shoulder I'm going to talk about the goodness that is playing frisbee the ability the health you have to run and

7:49
throw and be and even feel a little stiff the next morning your body is

7:55
working well this is see you see that that was masterful that's how you do it

8:01
but it's interesting as I I'm thinking about this in the you know because I I guess I just see it so much it's that

8:07
Dynamic of you know a couple comes in and you know they're really focused on

8:14
all the problems that their relationship has you know and what you don't do and

8:20
our finances and you know and our you know our sex life and your in-laws and

8:26
you know or my in-laws however you want to say it you that kind of thing and it's and it's become negatively focused

8:35
and it's interesting when you create a shift and you you can just you can just

8:42
observe it you know it's it's visible tangible even almost you know when you

8:48
say okay well if this is the situation you know what What attracted you to this

8:55
person in the beginning oh well you know they were caring they were kind and you

9:01
know and they really you know seem to want to know where I am I say well is

9:07
that person still there well yeah that's they're still the same person and you

9:13
know and it's like this switch occurs it's like oh yeah I've gotten to this

9:19
point where I just focus on what's wrong with our relationship or what's wrong

9:26
with you you know and when I can write recognize that I have a role in that you

9:33
know if I'm focusing on what's wrong with you you're likely to focus on what's wrong with you as well oh and

9:40
definitely to in a defensive mode you're going to start focusing on what's wrong with me oh but you do I do and we well

9:49
we don't even get to that point of saying well yeah I did that but you do this you know that can be a cycle as

9:55
well but I think that Pro that ability to reflect the fact that okay yes this

10:01
is a stage this is a cycle and yes our kids you know are in this adolescent era

10:09
and it and it's there's divis yeah division between us that at times makes

10:16
it difficult to be United and yet when we can recognize okay yeah you're still

10:21
the same person I like being on your team what can we do what are what what

10:27
are you what are the thoughts that you have to contribute you know as far as you know problem solving brainstorming

10:34
and and valuing our you know Partners influence or other people's influence in a way

10:41
that isn't dismissive but that that basically says okay wow I hadn't thought about it that

10:47
way before and I think gratitude is that ability it's it's the ability to say

10:52
okay I don't know it all and yet there's there's good to be seen or heard in what

11:01
you're contributing and there's good to be valued in your perspective your

11:09
influence and that doesn't it doesn't it translates Beyond marital relationship

11:15
it translates to you know those things that create polarity between us you know

11:21
and being able to say okay yeah that's a that is a that's a way I haven't seen it

11:27
before and I think gratitude is a way sometimes that we need to be able to see

11:32
things yeah yeah it's good I I guess one

11:37
one question I would have for you is when what do you do when you're stuck right and um I can even speak from

11:44
personal experience where there sometimes a relationship gets to the point where you it's like popey you I

11:52
can stands what I can stand and I can't stand it no more whatever that phrase is right and it's I am who I am yes that

11:59
I'm stuck yeah yeah it's this idea that you get to a point where all right now I'm going to eat my spinach and we're

12:05
going to war or whatever and it's because stuff built up long enough and

12:10
and it's time to do something it's like but there still needs to be gratitude there but it tends to be set on a shelf

12:18
because now it's time for war or whatever and again speaking from personal experience I think it sometimes

12:24
it's hard to shift gears or do the mental gymnastics to be Greatful

12:29
but I guess my question would be how do you see that you know how do you and I and I think that's kind of coming back

12:37
to the Gratitude as an attitude type thing and I from my perspective I equate

12:43
it to um I'd equate it to turning the

12:50
Titanic okay because I can see what's in front of me and I don't like it there's

12:56
an iceberg there and you know and it and I'm willing to do the work even at times

13:04
but I'm turning and I'm turning and I'm turning and it doesn't seem to change anything you follow me the change is so

13:11
slow that it's like I'm just going to hit the iceberg anyways

13:16
because so you're saying we should go rearrange the deck chairs on the D no

13:23
but I am saying when it seems slow don't give up don't become frustrated that I'm

13:31
doing this and it doesn't work because it's it's going to be something that

13:36
comes with time it's not I mean and granted yes um for people who are stuck I would

13:45
even recommend you know like even a gratitude Journal you know where I take a certain

13:52
amount of time whether it's the end of my day the beginning of my day and I'm writing three to five things down that

13:57
I'm thankful for about my day MH now granted is that going to change tomorrow

14:04
MH right now likely not but over time as

14:10
I continue to write things down and I believe writing them down is an important thing because it it it kind of

14:18
ingrains them in my mind in my thoughts and I'm able to see it as well so when

14:27
I'm writing it down when I'm looking at it on paper I'm able to see that in the

14:33
process of my day MH so I'm thankful for another day I'm thankful for the sunrise

14:39
this morning it was you know that kind of thing and so then tomorrow morning

14:46
when the sunrise comes there's still an aspect of gratitude that's residual from

14:53
writing it down from today MH you follow me and I think that's it's there isn't

15:00
there isn't a quick fix Band-Aid no Magic Bullets no magic wands no Magic

15:05
Bullets and that and I think that's where you know it is an attitude that

15:11
is developed yeah that's the word I want to use but you know nurtured that kind of

15:18
thing over time it's not something you're just going to choose to do it's like anything you have to learn to do in

15:25
some ways yeah and it has to be something

15:31
that I learn as a process of time and I have to continue in that learning even

15:39
when I reach a point you know it's like when that pressure goes away when that

15:46
circumstance changes ah okay I'm good now you know we can as humans we can do

15:53
that it's like okay I don't need to do that anymore cuz that pressure went away

15:58
no now's the time when we can really practice it and maybe the pressure went away cuz you were practicing that and

16:04
that's how you keep the pressure away there's a yeah yeah it's like well I

16:10
changed the oil and the cars running fine so I guess I don't need to change the oil anymore exactly kind of thing I

16:16
I was thinking too like you mentioned five to 10 positive things to counteract and negative and so even applying that

16:22
gratitude practice to the specific relationship or situation you know int intentionally

16:29
thinking of five good things about that situation let's say you're unhappy at work for instance and but you're not

16:36
quite sure where to you know what to do about or move on or what uh you just know you're disgruntled yeah but make

16:43
taking the time in the effort to think you know to that gratitude practice journaling writing it down uh five good

16:51
things yeah a day or whatever to come back however number of bad things that you encountered so that because even in

16:58
that case like let in the case of this actually is bad and needs to be dealt with like you know my manager is not

17:06
treating me well or whatever the situation if you go into that room or that situation in Conflict like we

17:12
talked about but you've balanced these struggles with the Gratitude and are able to bring that

17:20
into your perspective in a conversation with your manager or whatever you you'd be

17:26
flabbergasted at the difference that conversation could look like no doubt when you come with an attitude of

17:32
gratitude you know to use your phrase attitude gratitude I I think it can make a

17:38
drastic difference when you walk up to your manager and say we really need to talk here here's some things I've been

17:44
really thankful for here and I I just really love that we do this and this is really this is one of my favorite things

17:50
about working here but this is one thing that just really is a problem for me you

17:55
know yeah and your manager is going to go huh yeah I want to hear this you know

18:00
sure versus you know the way it usually goes where we finally build up the courage to say something or do something

18:08
and it's just vomit right it's like they feel like they just got puked up on and they got to go clean off you

18:14
know there's not this idea of like I truly want to hear and and empathize you

18:20
know uh and not every manager is like that or every spouse or whatever and I think but I do think that a interesting

18:28
idea and not just do gratitude in a general sense which I also think is important sure cuz it's a practice right

18:34
but also use it as a weapon towards a specific situation to say which I want

18:40
to try this this is this is an interesting idea for me but like I like your terminology of

18:46
weapon how about a tool how about a tool it's my spinach I'm poy remember yes

18:53
okay I got you you're going to war I hear you now I'm I'm I'm following the theme yes

18:59
but it it can be a resource yes yes but I'm interested in seeing you know trying

19:05
that see applying at the specific situations to sure and what and I think

19:10
what it does is it a when we go in with that

19:15
defensive frame of mind it's going to elicit defensiveness you're right but when we

19:22
can go in with a gratitude that says hey here's some here's some things we're doing well and and yet there's also this

19:30
aspect for improvement that I see what are your thoughts on that MH you know because I'm willing to

19:37
recognize there's some good stuff going on here this isn't you know this isn't terrible nobody likes working here

19:43
you're terrible this you know that kind of that's not going anywhere yeah but

19:49
yet when we can recognize okay and and I'm not saying here again there's a fine line there I'm not saying that gratitude

19:57
becomes a form of manipulation either you know yeah but it

20:03
is it is it needs to be genuine right the the idea of gratitude is that it

20:09
transforms you when you have the conversation it doesn't transform yeah

20:14
the conversation or the other person exactly in an attempt to manipulate yeah that's a good good good way to put it I

20:21
also think to like um gratitude is very much a a practice of Focus right it's

20:30
about what you look at and what you see sure yeah and I think about I don't know for some reason

20:36
this uh analogy came to mind when you were talking about uh gold miners right

20:42
like U you know panhandlers yeah sure yeah like there's a gold rush to California because they they'd find

20:49
these little glints of gold in the river right and get these pans and you know it's all about looking for that gold

20:55
among right the rest and I do think gratitude sometimes can be like that

21:00
where you got to get your pan out you got to start looking and you can you can

21:05
get an eye for it yeah you know and if you do well you can get rich I gotta you

21:12
know rich in gratitude yes I it just made me think of that like that idea of

21:17
the focus and I also think too um the the reverse Focus can happen

21:25
right where we're focused on the negative and that can be with that particular relationship as you described

21:31
and is you know important to remember it can be in a particular situation if it's your job or whatever U it can also just

21:38
be a negative outlook on life and uh I read this quote which I really like um

21:45
by historian and author Howard Zin on the importance of what you choose to emphasize he says to be hopeful in bad

21:53
times is not just foolishly romantic it is based on the fact that human history is history not only of Cruelty but also

22:00
of compassion sacrifice courage and kindness what we choose to emphasize in

22:06
this complex history will determine our lives if we see only the worst it destroys our capacity to do something if

22:14
we remember those times and places and there are so many where people have behaved magnificently this gives us the

22:20
energy to act and at least the possibility of sending uh this spinning

22:26
top of a world in a different direction m and if we do act in however small a

22:31
way we don't have to wait for some Grand utopian future the future is an infinite succession of presence and to live now

22:39
as we think the human beings should live in Defiance of all that is B bad around us is itself a marvelous Victory uh and

22:46
that's from his book you can't be neutral on a moving train yeah um but

22:52
man I don't love that quote and it's this idea that if you do your part and you stay

23:01
you know have that attitude of gratitude and operate from it you can make a

23:06
significant impact on this world and guess what if you don't at least your world is magnificently improved right

23:14
yeah you're you're not required to live in the worst version of the world that

23:20
you're in yeah like we really do have that choice right you know no and as I

23:27
was thinking as you were sharing this it it reminds me of the uh maybe I've shared it here

23:34
before with you even but the the uh the I guess it's a quote the the man in the

23:41
arena oh yeah you know yeah and I and I think you know that

23:46
gratitude does give us the ability to go forward you know in that process and we

23:53
don't have to be so encumbered with what other people think

23:59
you follow me or the the because it is the person who tried valiantly and may

24:05
have even failed but still continues and how much better that is than just being

24:12
the person standing on the sidelines as a spectator complaining you follow me

24:18
that that and I I think those two kind of go hand inand when I think about you know yeah it's easy to it's easy to be a

24:27
spectator and just complain and say well if You' done that if you'd done that you

24:33
know I would have done this yeah but yet that person who is basically able to say

24:39
okay yeah I can go forward because I think gratitude maybe even is

24:46
connected with my ability to have faith that things can work out for a good

24:54
regardless of the circumstance and the at the end was that you know yeah human

25:00
history is not only cruelty but compassion sacrifice courage and

25:06
kindness you know and we can demonstrate that when others would just want to

25:12
complain about the circumstance well you can't do that you well you're going to always have poor people so why bother

25:19
even helping anyone you know I might as well just you know keep it yeah that

25:26
kind of thing you know I'm not going to pay my taxes cuz I can do it better than the government well maybe that's true

25:31
too but at the same time there is benefits being you know given that kind

25:37
of thing and yeah yeah I think too like

25:42
uh I wrote that quote down and specifically in thinking of in terms of

25:48
watching the news because for me uh so much of news now is intentionally

25:53
polarized and intentionally negative because both of those things create

25:58
a natural vacuum in you to like need more because if I know things are bad I

26:04
need to know what's next right I need to know what I'm looking for and also if I

26:10
feel like I'm hearing yeah everything is bad on that side but you're good because you're on the good side then there's

26:16
this this this it feeds so many natural aspects of our our longings right and it

26:22
creates this addiction really to the news and a lot I'm sure we know a lot of

26:29
people like that grandparents or whatever who stay glued to the TV for you know 24/7 and it's on CNN or it's

26:36
Fox News whatever their brand is right or their flavor um the flavor yeah and

26:42
you know it just feeds that yes those inner needs that they have and I think

26:48
we're much better served filling those needs with gratitude right and

26:54
those Outlets are not going to produce that sure um yeah they might they might do a well

27:03
not even five minutes they might do the gazelle you know talking with people I always enjoy the last three minutes of

27:09
the news because at least there's a they they do try to spin it up with a you know one positive characteristic I can

27:15
even hear their tone in my mind yeah and in other news yes the polar

27:22
bear yeah Someone Saved a whale someone saved the polar bear you know that kind

27:27
of thing yeah but and and that's a good thing too don't get me I'm not but it's

27:33
it's that very contrast that we're talking about of how much to how little yeah depending on

27:42
your Viewpoint and I think it is important even even in CR you know recognize my hurts from the past but

27:49
also recognize balance that with what good things happened to me what who who

27:55
did I have in my corner who did support me in the process and it's not that you

28:00
know everything was bad that's the kind of thing that and I was

28:05
um in that in that new as you as you mentioned the news feed too I'm uh I'm

28:12
mindful of how it when that becomes so focused it is

28:19
the it's difficult to find other areas of common ground because you hear the

28:25
same talking point at time to where at time you can tell where someone's coming

28:31
from based on the talking points you hear and I do I do value individuals and

28:38
people who are who when I talk with them they I hear that balance in them you

28:47
know that basically yeah they're willing to acknowledge the talking point and yet

28:52
they're willing to also go to the other side in other words you can hear CNN and fox in both sides of their speech and

29:00
their ability to say okay yeah and this is another source that I went to and this is and this is what you know the

29:06
post said and this is what the New York Times you know and being able to say okay yeah this person is actually

29:13
pursuing truth you know at a cost it's they're willing to invest and I think

29:19
you know when we're willing to go that extra mile to look for what is good to

29:27
look for to recognize that yeah there's conflict but even that has the ability

29:34
to create intimacy and Draw Me Closer to that individual when I understand where

29:40
they're coming from yeah and to try and you know kind of pull this back into gratitude too I

29:47
think there is an aspect of uh recognizing I mean kind of like this quote said that when you are fed a

29:55
certain piece of information from a certain source it's not the full picture and there can

30:01
be hope in that right there can be hope in that you know yeah there's saying

30:06
this is happening but at the same time there's likely some

30:11
in intentional leaving out of certain parts sure which would make this feel a

30:16
little less bad if I knew it but they want you to act on this feeling bad or whatever whatever the point is uh

30:24
there's reason to hope there's reason to have gratitude that okay I know this isn't the full picture

30:31
yeah and um again I think I don't think there's anything

30:36
inherently wrong with the news if you're able to consume it in a way that is able to keep that balance with gratitude I'm

30:43
just not sure how you can feed on a steady diet of it and maintain gratitude it's very difficult because it's it's

30:50
very much in their best interest financially to get you to stop thinking

30:56
from gratitude and from positiv and think negatively that's what brings you back and there's lots of science

31:02
behind the way news Works um that kind of prove that sure U so while I have

31:09
nothing against news I don't watch it because I know what it does to me it brings anxiety it brings discouragement

31:15
it brings so many things that are not healthy for me personally and I know I'm

31:21
a better fit in my world when I am not thinking from those perspectives of I

31:29
guess dwelling on the negative sure and um gratitude is essentially the fighting

31:35
back against that tide yeah that's why I was using some of those uh you know fighting words or whatever because I do

31:42
think it is an a fight sure because it's an ongoing tide of negativity whether

31:48
it's co-workers whether it's the news whether it's politics whether it's whatever the thing is we have to do the

31:56
work personally no one's going to do it for us yeah to fight that back with

32:01
gratitude to say yes but yes but you know that may be true but also this is

32:07
true that may be true but also this is true and if you know coming from a perspective of a Believer we have uh we

32:15
believe in a god that is supremely powerful and in control and even when negative things are happening in our

32:22
planet I never worry that he's missing this piece and I can come back to that

32:28
and have gratitude that I know he's got the whole world in his hands right and

32:34
that might be naive to some people and I would say maybe okay try it yeah you

32:40
know yeah try naivity once you you might find out that you again are a better fit

32:47
in your world when you have a little bit of naivity towards all the negative all

32:53
the bad and just have some blind hope you know mhm um I I think it's so easy

33:01
to write that off as bad and I would argue Maybe not maybe that's the better

33:06
way maybe faith of a child right sure is blotted and uh the whole idea that

33:15
having all this knowledge and uh knowing the ways of the world or whatever is going to keep you protected from it it's

33:22
just not accurate like you know what I mean yeah what are your thoughts uh

33:27
there's a couple um I was thinking about it when you shared initially when you

33:33
shared you know how things lead to you know that focusing on the news leads to anxiety

33:40
and I would dare say you know what we experience this isn't a political statement but I think what we

33:46
experienced with covid you know this this isolating you know everyone staying

33:53
home you know and most many people turning to you know news and government and you

34:00
know news to find out what people were saying you know that kind of thing I think you know it's it's no surprise

34:08
that that led to a tremendous amount of anxiety you know culturally you know and

34:16
and that's so you know when I look at you know politics and culture we're able

34:21
to see how some of these things just mesh together they're connected yes they

34:27
go hand in hand and I was thinking about that and I want to I want to bring it back to that positive Dynamic it's you

34:33
know the ability to engage with other people and to you know still have

34:39
interaction or the people that even in some ways chose to push the boundary if

34:46
I may say so a little bit tended to maintain a little more mental health

34:52
dynamic because of that balance they were able to see you know yes it's it's

34:58
not that everyone is if I make air quotes everyone is going to die type

35:05
thing and yet okay yeah and I'm I'm I'm I'm hurt I'm mourning the loss of my

35:12
friends my personal loved ones and yet yeah I want to be safer and yet I can

35:18
recognize that if I go too far towards this Focus then I'm not able to see any of

35:28
the positive it everything becomes darker at that point and I think what you share you know is a light our

35:35
ability to have gratitude does become a light and I think you know even when you

35:42
know in and I guess that's that's where I'm at is is gratitude has the ability

35:48
to shine a light in the darkness yeah where it just seems Bleak where it

35:56
it seems like I can hard see my way I don't know where I'm going I don't know

36:01
what to do you know gratitude becomes a light that helps me see through or in

36:09
the darkness and you know I I think there's no it's not an accident that you

36:15
know from my perspective Jesus Compares himself or God's word is a lamp unto our

36:20
feet and a light unto our path you know and it is that ability and even you know God himself says you know enter my court

36:27
with Thanksgiving and praise you know negative people I'm not saying God

36:33
doesn't love them but you know it's like that's not the way we enter God's presence yes and if you

36:41
aren't there isn't a negativity door it's not door number one and door

36:48
number two I mean maybe I mean I think you complain to God you certainly can hear you I agree I agree say that but

36:55
yeah but there's an aspect of entering his courts there's a benefit if I may

37:03
that basically says okay yes there's a reason the model prayer starts with holy

37:09
is is the name you know that kind of thing to where I'm thinking about things in a way that lifts God up lifts other

37:19
people up you know I think that's even can be a part of his kingdom on earth

37:25
when we're able to see what is good and go ahead well you made me think

37:31
of the Elijah or Elisha uh where Elijah came first yeah I just don't remember

37:38
which one it was but they're you know they're camped and that's the he has a servant with them a yes all of a sudden

37:44
there's you know an army surrounding them and they're supposed to take them back to the king and it's not going to be good things for them right and the

37:52
servant is just shaking in his boots and Elisha or Elijah MH

37:58
I think it's Elisha you were gonna say Elijah I'm I'm with you on Elisha the

38:04
servant's name was began with an a yeah yeah he's the guy that yeah I know this

38:09
this is how we see it good luck finding this is a little Loosely interpreted but you know it can

38:16
generally be found in a specific area of the Old Testament no but he so you know the

38:23
servant is just shaking like well they're going to kill us they're going to do bad things whatever and you know I

38:29
think I just see Elijah kind of smiling you know knowingly smiling it doesn't

38:34
say that but I just picture it you know and he says a prayer that says hey God why don't you show him what I can see

38:41
and all of a sudden you know he looks around the mountains and they're full of Chariots and and AR you know uh angels

38:49
and basically this idea that this little puny Army in front of us is completely

38:54
outnumbered all around us you know sure and so whatever is going to happen is

38:59
fully in control you know and it's this idea of it didn't the thing about that story

39:06
that I love is it didn't remove the truth in front of them sure right the

39:11
Army was still there with bad intent yep it just changed the uh perspective sure

39:19
of what where the control was MH and I think that was so important for me

39:26
during because in some senses you had to pay

39:32
attention to the news in order to know when can I leave my house in order to know when when and where do we get

39:39
vaccines if you're you know up for that or whatever you know just various things you had to kind of be paying attention

39:46
you didn't you really didn't have to be glued to it you mean no I hear you it was very slow moving so you could find

39:51
out pretty easy but the point is you had to have some sense of what was going on

39:56
and I do feel like there was some Grace in my life to be able to remember that

40:01
idea of like this thing's worldwide and yet he created the universe and this

40:08
world's pretty small and he knows what's going on and he's got this under control

40:13
and people will die but I guarantee you there's there's not a shadow of doubt in

40:18
my mind that those people would die either way right and so and I know that

40:24
he has the days planned for each of us mm and that is you know how I see it

40:30
yeah and being able to look out and go yeah there's a whole Army of angels camped around us that and this thing's

40:38
under control was very important for me during those times when it if if it

40:44
wasn't for that it felt like things were completely out of control and like this

40:50
is unprecedented right The Whole World's on lockdown and we don't know if we can go outside and does This Thing carry on

40:57
the wind and like all these questions and yet for me there's definitely a

41:03
comfort and a gratitude in knowing that there was a a higher power at work you

41:11
know what I mean sure there's a greater plan yeah than just what I'm seeing MH

41:17
yeah how do you how do you maintain that in other aspects outside of a post in

41:26
this postco world as I hear the you know phrase routinely you know how are you

41:33
currently you know exhibiting or practicing gratitude for you

41:41
personally well I thought you were going to specifically ask about that perspective of being in control which is

41:48
to me distinct from gratitude but not separate but feel free to do both well I

41:54
was going to say for me events that are bigger ger than me I'm much better at doing this in

42:02
other words I wasn't fixing Co sure I got I mean you might have been had a plan in

42:08
your garage but I I I gave up I don't think I can fix this thing yeah I gotta

42:14
and so those kinds of events you know war in Ukraine and Russia just like you

42:19
know even who's going to be uh elected I can put my vote in right but I'm not in

42:25
control of that either you know sure all these things that I can very clearly see

42:31
are way outside of my jurisdiction right uh those things are much easier for me

42:37
to go to see that his plan's bigger and trust it when it comes to what part do I

42:45
play that's when it gets really hard for me because I know he's control but I also know I have a part to play and it's

42:51
hard for me sometimes to figure out what that is and to know what I'm supposed to do and then worry about like did I do

42:57
the right thing am I doing the right thing do I need a course correct you know kind of that whole thing so that's that's kind of a separate thing from

43:04
what you asked but um it I do think that's a distinct difference from some of those global things that are easier

43:10
for me than you know um yeah and then

43:16
but as far as gratitude goes I mean I definitely Journal Goa yeah as often as

43:23
I can uh it used to be pretty daily but I'd say it's more like couple times a weak kind of thing at this point but uh

43:29
for me a big part of that is gratitude is that refocusing on the good things in

43:36
my life but more specifically through the lens of his provision and what he's doing in my life and even the negative

43:43
to see I see that maybe you're doing this in me you know like you're you're breaking down this part of me that's not

43:50
so good or you know um yeah stuff like that creating discomfort at times right

43:57
and yeah I can still see that there's a benefit for me in that current

44:02
discomfort yeah back to what you were saying about writing things down or journaling or whatever write you know

44:08
writing gratitude for me I've always pictured it as when you're writing whether it's with

44:15
a pen or paper or you know typing on a keyboard if that if you're so inclined because I know some people think better

44:21
that way it's all about channeling all the thing all the thoughts in our brain into a single point on a piece of paper

44:28
or a single letter on the computer right where um it forces us to focus sure and

44:35
focus is really what we're talking about we're talking about gratitude right yeah so it's it's an intentional focused

44:41
practice sure on gratitude you know yeah yeah no what about

44:48
you yeah very much so postco uh gravitude practices postco gravit I the

44:55
the journaling is definitely a part of it for me you know as far as uh it's just my my own personal practice you

45:03
know if I'm if I'm writing out you know my prayer or my journal in the morning

45:08
you know I'm definitely focused that the first five

45:13
sentences at least are going to be thanking God for something he's done for you know provision for family you know

45:21
for circumstances you know those things and to where um that like your saying

45:27
I'm mindful I'm of the things that I have the blessings

45:33
I'm given before I just break into my and by the way I need I need I need I

45:38
want I want I want that kind of thing because I I think it transforms my perspective to be able to

45:47
see the blessings that I do have already and the fact that that I can be

45:54
content right now versus being able to say well you know I

46:00
just can't I just can't live without and I need you to do that and would you you

46:06
know that kind of thing so yeah that's just a that's just a personal thing for me can I put you on this bot question of

46:13
course what's your distinction between contentment and

46:19
gratitude is there one is there a difference I between

46:27
contentment and gratitude I believe that yes there is a

46:33
difference but I think it's very subtle in other words um

46:43
gratitude gratitude has the is is the aspect of being

46:49
grateful for what I do have currently and I think that helps create create

46:58
contentment when I'm able to recognize what I have right now is

47:05
sufficient you follow me and I and I think I think in some ways that is

47:11
counter to anxiety because when I am content I'm

47:18
not living in scarcity and scarcity says well how do I

47:23
get that how do I get mine who's going to provide it what do I need to know you

47:30
know if the other shoe falls you know and I think in some ways that thinking

47:36
is driven by scarcity when I don't think I have

47:42
enough of anything any one thing or multiple things and it's my

47:48
responsibility to generate it it's within my control to get what I need I

47:57
think that's what at the heart I think in many ways that drives anxiety yeah

48:02
because I have to know more information at that point so I think what I'm hearing and I think

48:10
kind of how I'm seeing it is that contentment is essentially uh a scale or a

48:18
balance healthy equilibrium and gratitude pushes down on one this side of the scale anxiety

48:24
pushes down on this side of the scale and contentment is kind of that healthy balance in the Middle where the there's

48:31
we're never going to get rid of the negative like it's not possible until we're redeemed completely right right

48:37
but at the same time we have to balance that on this side of the scale with gratitude and recognition of good right

48:44
yeah and that creates that balance in the middle called content contentment

48:49
sure that seem I know just the way you described it made me think of that kind of picture I'm I'm good with that with

48:56
with contentment being a balance yes and if I tend to focus on

49:02
what I don't have then it starts to shift a little bit and anxiety tends to

49:08
be created but if I'm able to recognize all that I do have you know even in the

49:14
midst of Health circumstances or you know and I realize um you know we're

49:20
talking with people who are going through difficult things all the time

49:28
you know cancer loss of a spouse you know um

49:34
you know I'm just thinking of you know different people that I interact with who you know say Hey you know my

49:40
daughter you know has cancer or my daughter has leukemia and she's four years old those those are the people

49:46
that I realize we're talking to yeah so you know even in abusive

49:52
relationship yeah so I'm I just want to recognize that those people people are

49:58
in the back of my mind when I'm talking to this microphone type thing do you

50:03
follow me to where and I can at times I can see them

50:11
demonstrating this these same you know dynamics that we speak about even in the

50:18
midst of their circumstance yeah and that's that's there again I think that's

50:24
where hope kind of of Lies when I can recognize okay there is a purpose in this and me

50:32
tending to view the what is what is good and what

50:38
is well seems to help versus

50:43
just I have no control and I can't do anything and and granted not that that

50:48
isn't a healthy aspect too but I can recognize that someone still has control

50:55
and it's not my all all my responsibility MH because I think that is a isolating type thought yeah and

51:04
there's I mean I think we're talking a little bit about when you're in those

51:09
you know terrible places there is a balance to that terrible that comes from

51:15
gratitude that comes from faith that comes from hope you know that comes from all these things uh I think

51:21
interestingly gratitude you know on even on its own can say

51:27
everything's bad except that you know what I mean and you don't even have to hope have hope it's going to get better

51:32
to have gr like you can't they are distinct properties right hope faith sure and gratitude to where you can

51:41
say things are bad but that's good yeah you know and Hope just balances to say I

51:48
hope it gets better Faith balances to say I trust there's a bigger purpose in this you know what I mean so you put all

51:54
those things together and um on top of the Holy Spirit interacting inside of our hearts and our lives and

52:01
it starts to make sense how people can make it through those situations and still have you know a good attitude or

52:09
whatever um but yeah that's good yeah I'm thankful for you Mark and I'm uh I'm

52:16
I'm I'm thankful for you I'm grateful for this opportunity and the opportunity

52:22
to do it with you yes microphone between us there you go yeah that's how I see it

52:27
it's a microphone we share it doesn't divide us no I'm just sometimes if we polarize yeah yeah

52:35
we're going to have to work on that a more we got we got to find a little more polarization I was going to try and do

52:41
it with politics when we pulled that out but that was still pretty similar it was I got another topic I got some other

52:46
topics all right let's go but yeah let's go let me get my spinach first well I think as far as this goes

52:53
this is how I see it

52:59
hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

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