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[Music]

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I'm live actually we're never quite live no well we're not oh it's recorded but

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right now we're recording live that's right that's right we are recording live we are recording live yeah we're not

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dead that's true and we are recording it's just not uh live

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broadcast live broadcast there you go we should do that sometime yeah yeah we can do that through something like um the

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real Instagram what they call that are you planning on using your mic this morning oh

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hello you know I maybe sometimes I should just not have a microphone that forces me to the funny part was you were

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looking directly at me it's like the vision was so clear never so been so

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uninhibited now I got this in my face there you go now you're good good call

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though there I try I try I'm not real technical but casely I I can spot

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something you know I'm a noticer yeah good thing we weren't doing this

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live uh anyway we should that'd be fun sometime to do that I don't know if we

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have anybody watching but we could we could try there you go all right yeah so

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what what are we talking about today Mark well I was thinking about what uh do you have any preamble a preamble no I

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don't have a preamble this morning podcast but I was thinking about it in the context we were uh we were talking

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about you know Mia and you know just kind of thinking about years ahead and I

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was curious based on your late teens okay as far as what pressure did

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you feel to have an occupation [Music]

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welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a

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podcast that works to countercultural polarization through thoughtful

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[Music] conversations I mean I think it's I

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think it's part of the the process of growing up you get asked what do you

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want to do after school yeah I um one thing that was nice

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is basically as soon as I turned 16 I started painting in the Summers okay and

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so that was good in the sense of it relieved some tension in terms of I have

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to figure it out um which I actually think helped me to decide more easily

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that makesense sure um but no I had a mentor a friend who kind of advised me

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based on some of my specific skill sets I had already exhibited um which and he

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basically said I should look into graphic design that kind of thing and I I was like I don't think I would have

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ever pegged myself for that except for that advice and then once that bug was

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said I was like yeah I really really want to do that and oh wow yeah so that

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was something you were thinking about before graduation is the graphic design

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stuff okay yep yeah to the degree where I was trying to do some at home College

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stuff even before graduating okay um cool yeah and I ended up I can't

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remember why that's I can't remember exactly how that went down but it ended up not doing the rest of it cuz it I

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think it just wasn't a very good okay the material I gotta um so yeah I mean

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I don't know if I'm I have a good answer for that it's okay what about you um I can remember you know I can

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remember a variety of answers to that question you know from early you know

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kind of like adolescence up through you know my mentor was a rifle Smith so I was going to be a rifle Smith there

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there was a while there that I was going to be a helicopter pilot and then there was a while there I was going to be a marine and then you know

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so all all that kind of stuff how many of those did you

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do those are those are still on the chat those are still on the bucket list I guess if you really if I really come

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down to it but um and it's kind of interesting you were talking about you know your painting you think the Marines

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will take you now I don't think so I think I'm I'm aged out you might want to cross that

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up I think yeah over 50 you know I think I just be like a chaplain

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I I don't know possibly I've been asked to be a chap put back on you really yeah

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yeah y why didn't you do it did you do it I mean nothing's off the table nothing's off the table but no that was

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like for the sheriff's department type thing you know yeah but it was it was a it was a thought that'd be an

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interesting other conversation yeah chapy cuz I don't understand it I got you anyway yeah so all those but those

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things were all on the table and um for me you know

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um I can remember this conflict growing up you

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know as far as what I was going to do and I also knew based on who my parents

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were you know and their requirements that I was not going to

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leave the Pratt household without a form of college education okay that was

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definitely you know I I was not you know looking forward to college but

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yet you know in school there was a definite amount of pressure you know a

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lot of your you know all your SATs and you know you take all these tests to be

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able to you know get into college and you know get your tuitions and that I

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can remember that kind of you know pressure and comparison you know what you got on your SAT scores and you know

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the only reason that I was um able to kind of I shouldn't say get out of the house

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but you know um I talked my mom into uh basically construction I was allowed to

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go to a 2-year school you know uh a trade school if you will and that

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sufficed that requirement as far as getting an education before I left the house you know cuz I had looked in I had

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actually looked into uh went and tour to school to be a uh a Fed teacher even oh

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wow yeah and it and you know from my perspective at that point it was like too much like having I mean who doesn't

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like gym class but at the same time it's like this is continual gym class you

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know and it seems kind of that's right it didn't seem like something I wanted to necessarily be doing but at the same

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time you know it was one of those things I was checking off and visited schools you know I visited schools that kind of

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thing but uh yeah and it was just it was one of those things that I just had

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really very little interest in further education at that point just because of

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who I was so and if that was not an interest then what was your mindset of

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like well I would just do this I'd rather not go to school cuz I I have a I'd like to do this thing yeah it's a

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helicopter pilot all those things you mentioned except for the Marines I guess would have to require have some school

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right uh yeah I mean an education of sorts yes okay but at the same time my

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the the the mentor that I had you know I kind of saw him as that ability to go through like a a journeyman process type

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you know yeah thing that that probably like a Padawan what's the word for that you got

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me on Padawan I'm thinking Star Wars now at this point I know jump the track

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Apprentice I'm Sor yeah yes Journey an apprentice so that was kind of like top

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of mind for you I could just that was an option and and granted the the helicopter pilot was through a military

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you know option it wasn't necessarily you know something that I was going to how didd your parents feel about the

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military idea um Mom wasn't necessarily as supportive of it you know she was a

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little more fearful of it Dad I feel like most moms yeah that's that's probably and then dad my dad had been in

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the military so of course he would have yeah he was you know he was in the Army he was actually uh he was actually

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in um that's kind of a neat story I found out about Christmas um he was

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actually in between the Korean War and the Vietnam War MH and back then he was

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actually he was you know and some of his buddies of course they were actually drafted my dad was you know part of the

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draft and that ER yeah and um it was kind of neat because he did his two

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years they drafted they were he was drafted for two years and um he

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basically said you know what I I felt a calling he said to stay in the military

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and he actually you know a lot of his buddies got out in their two years but he resigned for another three years and

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just stayed in but he did say you know by the time um Vietnam was starting

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heat up he was starting to sweat it a little bit you know that he might get you know

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extended um you know for the Vietnam War and he wasn't necessarily looking

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forward to that but at the same time he uh he you know did his threeyear you know total of five years and then got

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out and he wasn't extended or anything like that but yeah it was just so he had

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the you know he would definitely have a different he would have had no issues with me being in the military that kind

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of thing but yeah Mom wasn't necessarily didn't share that Viewpoint

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yeah to the same degree yeah makes sense yeah

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yeah she wasn't you know anti-military or anything it was just that concern of

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yeah so what might happen what route did you take what route did I take I ended up um I ended up going and getting a

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degree uh in uh in carpentry and building constructions Technologies well

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done it's like I don't think you can make a carpenter sound more complicated

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than that you know really is what it was but um yeah it was uh I had a I had a

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great that was a great experience for me oh it really was I why just very Hands-On very Hands-On apprentiship

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style yep to where you know we you know it it was definitely apprenticeship style we had I I me my kids they still

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hear the stories you know and they still my the kids my kids know names of people

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they've never met just because the stories are that way you know and then I actually was able to catch up with a

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buddy of mine Dean dunkleberger dunberger yeah wow yeah over um a good

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name over Christmas we hadn't seen each other dle BG exactly yeah that was his

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name dunk you know that kind of thing but um I actually was able to catch up

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with him he's still into trades he's not fictional right no he's not fictional yeah yeah yep but uh dle B it's a good

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name it is it's a solid name solid yeah and uh so yeah him and I were great friends he he was uh he was actually a

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Tradesman I mean he he just when you think of Craftsman you know he's that

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kind of person in my era you know what I'm saying I mean I don't I I don't say

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that lightly I just think when I look back at like post beam construction when

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you were bit bracing everything you know and uh using a hand you know uh when you

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were Drilling and you had to Hue things by hand you know with the ads or you know when you're actually those guys

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were Craftsmen in my opinion okay you know what I'm saying to when you when you have power tools you don't watch

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enough YouTube videos but I'm I'm just I just

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recognize that my era has a lot of the blessings of power tools and you can buy

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lumber you know you know M Dimension yeah dimensional Lumber you know yeah

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and you know that kind of thing so I that's I for me you know it's yeah yeah

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I I hear what you're saying it would be like it' be like comparing uh baseball players pre- steroids you know to some

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you know those those records and so forth but either way yeah he was he is

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you know what I would consider a Craftsman in my generation you know as

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far as that goes but uh so yeah I went there um um ended

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up going there for 2 years um like I say we built City buildings it was a it was

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it was actually um it's now pen pentech or Pennsylvania College of Technology um

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it was based in Williamsport PA and we and the school what was really neat the

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school had a really good the um the administration at the school had built

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uh an alliance with the city of Williamsport so we actually did City buildings we

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built City projects you know I remember working on you know bus garages lay blocks and you know and putting roofs on

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and pouring flat work for the concrete in the garages you know so it was really a good

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partnership I I don't know how the labor worked out or the insurance you know worked for the but yeah I can remember

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you know just doing a lot of stuff like that to where it was really handson and then you know we'd actually go like um

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the logging there was a logging part of the school as well and we'd go up and build up their buildings you know when

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they needed to and that kind of thing whenever there was an expansion you know

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so yeah it was it was it was a really Hands-On yeah thing and you know well

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what's what's cool about that idea going to school for carpentry right sure is

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you're going to learn from someone who wants to teach sure I just think about a lot of trade you know you kind of enter

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in as a you know a junior green green horn right and you're immediately met

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with the orary seniors who just don't want you there you're just slowing them down and you know like I think that

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honestly I think you know when you talk about trades versus you know non- trades whatever um I feel like a lot of people

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are turned off to trades because of that you yeah where they did that in the Summers as a kid or whatever but like

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sure they you know they they moved on to bigger better things quote unquote went to college or whatever because there was

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no appeal to spend any more real time in that that there was there was not an

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idea that this could be a career because who wants to be you know in an environment like that cuz I think that

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is one of the you know if we're talking about trades versus what do we call the other side I don't know higher education

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maybe sure yeah whatever those jobs are white collar Blue Collar maybe maybe I

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don't know um but I do feel like 's uh there could be some rough

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characters but actually that's true on both sides obviously you can have your corporate jerks you know too but um I

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don't know I definitely work with some jerks as a painter but they also taught me a lot and you know there was some fun

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times but also there was some like just just beat down times where you know they were in a bad mood so there was nothing

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you could do right you know I mean and I just feel like that's that's not a good way to to teach someone the value of a

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trade and and to be you know what I mean yeah um so I feel like what you're describing actually going to school for

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carpentry that sounds like a novel concept I don't know that I've ever heard anyone I'm sure that's a thing

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I've just never heard of it and I think so much I'm I'm I'm thinking about it you know and I think it's kind of sad in

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my opinion I think you know when I grew up granted there's a lot of things have changed but you know we had this uh

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vocational aspect that was part of school you know in other words you had thing no

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no no that was Sportsman's Club but you know v um vag was like FFA or Future

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Farmers of America that kind of thing um and then you still had like a formal shop class yeah or you had you know

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metalurgy type stuff you know where you were actually equipping people you know

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to have to go into trades you know and that kind of thing which I think is is a

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valuable thing and I think you know we've given so much we've we've taken so

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much Focus to higher education I think some of that has gone away and yet there's still a need I

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think it's shifted actually I think there's a lot more computer classes which is kind of our you know

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Generations version of what you're describing sure no I where we're prepping them to understand how

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computers work and because you know we're prepping them for the the the Work World which is you know computers is a

18:01
big part and now phones obviously but sure um so I think I think it still happens it just looks different sure and

18:08
there's less shop classes and more computer rooms you know what I mean no I hear you there but yeah but yeah there's

18:15
a and I think there's there's still that aspect of you know the or maybe um uh a

18:24
myth if you will you know you have to go to college to you know get a good

18:31
education in order to be a successful person right I guess I you know I would see that as part of the myth that you

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know I grew up under in some ways yeah you know and by all means when I say

18:43
that I'm not anti you know higher education that kind of thing see and yet

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I also recognize you know I think there's a an ability

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to I think it's and and I I don't want to necessarily just break it down to you

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know income you know I think I think you know different people are designed with

19:08
different abilities for different reasons and for purpose yeah you know and to basically say

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and it's a I can remember a uh one of the constu you know construction people

19:22
like so you know you want to be you want to be a carpenter you want to be in construction grab a shot shovel you know

19:30
cuz I mean that was that's the reality in some cases you know it's like you're going to start out in the ground and you

19:36
got to build your way up you know that was the you know everybody wanted to yeah I would grab a hammer you know that

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kind of thing but it's for me today you know I

19:48
it's just it's just fun when I can grab a shovel and start digging in the ground that's just part of who I am you know in

19:55
that process I don't mind and even you know even John you know he doesn't mind like digging a ditch not that we want to

20:01
dig a ditch all day but it's like one of those things that you you just it's kind of like mowing the lawn it's very

20:08
therapeutic for me to be able to just dig you know with a shovel and I you

20:14
know I think that's just part of my makeup call it shovel therapy shovel

20:19
therapy but yeah you know to where I and I think people are designed differently

20:27
you know and you know I think there are people who you know higher education you know

20:34
college education is definitely their thing you know yeah and I think you

20:40
know there may have been a time and I'm I'm you know I'm thinking about a little more where you know we've taken kids and

20:48
made them say well you know you got to you got to get a college education and I don't think that's necessarily for

20:54
everyone and I think in that process we've kind of minimized some of the opportunities to have a broader you know

21:03
and I yeah I I think too often uh I mean we can be a little bit

21:11
deterministic like some people are good at this and other people are good at that and I think while that's true and I

21:17
definitely think there are specific bents sure I'm not disbanding that idea

21:23
but I do think we're capable of doing way more than any one of us think we are

21:28
who say well I'm I'd never be good at going to college and I I can't learn that kind of stuff it's like well but

21:34
you did because what you're doing right now required a lot of learning a lot of skill you know a lot of dedication and

21:41
again I'm not saying it's the same thing I understand sitting behind in at a desk

21:46
classroom or whatever I understand that's different um and and and vice versa you know people who go to college

21:53
or whatever and they never get their hands dirty and just think man I could never dig a ditch and it's like you

21:59
could there's a shov and there's like you certainly could and yeah um so I

22:04
think part of what I don't like about the push for college and oror trades or whatever it's just this idea that people

22:12
can be good at one thing or the other and I think I think we're actually better uh if we can have some

22:18
well-rounded experiences I think that's going to provide us a better path in our

22:23
life if we can realize I can dig a ditch I can swing a hammer and I can also sit behind a desk and I can can also read a

22:29
book yeah and having that ability to do both sides of that equation I think is

22:35
actually going to provide uh equip you to be have a bigger tool set for dealing

22:42
with life sure is that fair that's that's yeah a broad range of ability is

22:50
basically what to be able and I and I think you bring up a good point so often you know I think we can become

22:56
judgmental from one end of the spectrum and saying you know those nerds on the

23:01
other end or you know those neanderthals on the other end you know undeveloped

23:06
unthought you know and but yeah there's something to be able to be said for yeah

23:12
doing a trade but yet still getting further qualifications or you know or

23:18
going to a you know something that you learn from I remember when we we did our houses uh when we when I was building

23:25
you know we I went to like um a training if you will you know to be

23:31
able to do the arcs block those uh the concrete Form Construction cfc's it's

23:37
like where you see yeah it's basically big yeah building a formed to poor concrete yeah yeah yeah and you know and

23:44
remember and that was a fun time I can remember you know just going in and you know and I so I enjoyed learning about

23:51
new technologies in the construction industry you know and I think that was

23:56
beneficial you know so where it's not like you're not continuing to grow in

24:02
your education I think it's just a format that tends to be off-putting at

24:08
times when we think about it in a dramatic sense yeah I I don't blame

24:13
anyone who thinks about the idea of going to college and wants to puke you know mean like this idea of kind of the

24:19
construct that you have to follow and I also don't blame anyone thinks about

24:25
digging ditches or Y do swinging a hammer and being told to pick a shovel and like kind of that degrading idea you

24:32
know what I mean I I don't it all makes sense I don't know yeah

24:37
um you maybe think have you ever heard of the shelter Institute the shelter Institute no it's a where they teach how

24:45
to um ah shoot hang on I I gotta Google Google it because I can't remember the

24:52
term shelter Institute you're it's it Timber framing

24:59
okay it's where they they do Hands-On uh workshops to teach Timber framing oh wow cool well I when you were talking about

25:06
the concrete Form Construction and learning new things U my brain went to thinking about learning old things which

25:12
is what that is essentially learning the old school ways of Timber framing yeah U sorry that was a complete Trail but yeah

25:21
I was wondering if you heard of it anyway that to me sounds really cool this idea of going somewhere for this

25:26
it's I think a week long or two week long Workshop where you actually construct some sort of barn frame or

25:32
something in with like 20 30 people and you're all learning how to use these tools and the old barn raisings and yeah

25:39
yeah it's cool and I um I forget where we were I want to say it was someplace in Texas but you know whenever you go to

25:45
uh some of these historical places they'll actually have you know workshops

25:52
you know that teach you how to you know make a cradle or something you know something that people did with you know

25:59
crude I'll call it crude but you know hand planes you know that kind of thing

26:04
to be able to you know actually Mill something make something out of

26:10
something but yeah it's a yeah you know there's this new hybrid uh uh path you

26:16
can take it's not necessarily a trade it's not necessarily College it's a

26:24
YouTuber I'm kind of joking but there's actually this whole realm of career

26:30
options that your generation and my generation don't even think about which is well I could learn how to do a thing

26:38
and show you know demon you know video it or whatever and and and that

26:43
combination of skills yeah is actually very lucrative too right like if you can figure it out and whatever I'm not

26:50
advocating for that I'm just saying there's there's Realms that we don't even think of another one is a real

26:56
thing is Gamers right people who game and they video it and they live stream

27:02
it and people you know they can make money out that like that's a real thing

27:07
I know it's mindblowing it really is I'm glad it's mind-blowing for you it is yeah that's what I'm saying like even my

27:13
like our gen I'm an older generation at this point mark like as much as I like

27:18
to think I'm young I'm not I hear so I mean there's there's whole career options now that were not even yeah you

27:26
know a twinkle in our parents eyes no I hear you and I think that's the I I will

27:32
say I think that is kind of the beauty if I may say so or one of the advantages

27:38
of a college education okay it's not that you necessarily have to get an education in

27:45
a specific Arena and go into that Arena I would you know I know there's probably

27:51
statistics out there I didn't look them up but you know very I would say you know the minority are actually using

27:57
their education yeah you know based on you think that's directly proportional to the amount of money you spent I don't

28:05
know like lawyer school right or like you mean like a doctor the more the more

28:12
you spend on your education the more likely you are to be in that yeah that's my question I I hear where you're coming

28:18
from I could yeah I could see that no it's okay but I was thinking

28:24
about it in that context as far as you know so often it's about completing

28:31
something you know and going through the process of being able to say okay I can

28:36
commit to this learning process therefore I can commit to this you know

28:43
opportunity and I am a Dependable individual that can be counted on to

28:49
complete a project yep yeah I that's great point I think there's a lot of

28:54
things to be learned by going to college um that aren't exactly the thing you're learning right exactly outside of your

29:02
what do you what do you call that um your curriculum degree your degree yeah

29:07
yeah and I mean that I also we were briefly talking about the military a little bit but I think that's true of

29:13
that Avenue as well is sure I think both of those directions are a way to Short

29:18
Circuit some maturity sure I think you know what I mean to build it you mean to

29:24
build maturity yes you said short circuit maturity Short Circuit to yeah getting to some mature mindsets of how

29:31
the world works and you know you got to show up and do what they ask you to do I think whether you feel like it or not

29:37
yeah exactly I think that's a that's you know a fouryear way or twoyear depending on where you go military or whatever but

29:45
like you're going to learn that pretty quick sure um and I think that's a very valuable thing to get out of those

29:51
agreed um yeah and I would say you know that that 18 to 22e time frame is a good good

30:00
time to develop that you know I think it's important to be able to kind of step away you know maybe from some of

30:07
the family systems and learn how to you know think independently not that I

30:13
don't accept influence but yeah that's a that's a good life cycle stage

30:18
development you know in that process yeah yeah so as you as you think about

30:26
it and granted kind of I think part of another part of the college thing or pressure I felt early

30:34
on was you know it was it was going to be impossible to you know have a good

30:42
income to support a family on I think was another thought that kind of went to the the only way to really make a living

30:49
the really only way to really make a living is to get a college education yeah I remember that old school thinking

30:55
of like y you got don't you want support your family well you better get to College you know exactly yeah and I

31:02
think you know we're you know I don't think that's

31:07
necessarily realistic you know when when we think about you know the kind of money that it takes to go to school now

31:15
and you know and I think about you know as I'm as I'm you know uh working with

31:21
younger kids not younger kids but young adults you know recognizing the the

31:26
level of um indebtedness they have to school I feel I you know that's that's

31:34
difficult for someone from my perspective to to stomach in such a way that says okay you know we have a We

31:41
have basically what we could buy a house for into a four-year education or that

31:46
kind of thing and it just doesn't seem like it should be that way

31:52
which number one I'm fully agreeing with you but you can disagree as well but

31:58
secondarily I think it's an investment right like that's the whole idea and so

32:03
if you know the argument it it's not that difficult to

32:09
combat the argument you just made even though I fall on your side of it to say yeah but does that mean you shouldn't

32:15
start investing right now for retirement right like of course you should like yeah it's going to you're going to pay

32:21
money right now for something you're not going to see for years and years and years and years and years right like and

32:26
so uh you know obv the arum can be made yeah you're relying on that is yeah yeah

32:34
all right fair enough uh but yeah I mean education absolutely is that's how it's

32:39
sold and I think there is truth to it depending on where you went what you you know whatever what you got out of it um

32:46
so you can't discount that that side of it either so just out of curiosity along that that that line um do you think

32:54
where you got your education makes a difference ha uh say Harvard

33:02
versus you know what you take on that I mean I've actually I feel like i' heard

33:09
a lot of different podcasts about this kind of thing I listen to molm Gladwell a lot okay uh you're familiar with him I

33:17
know of the name he really likes to dismantle the idea of certain Prestige

33:22
of certain colleges and he there's this one report that comes out every year

33:28
okay of the rankings of schools and he just talks about how corrupt that process is and how Columbia got to

33:34
number two and they basically just lied about everything oh wow and therefore got to number two and he just yeah it it

33:41
was a very good very good episode oh wow really enjoyed it and so when I hear

33:46
intellectuals like Malcolm Gladwell kind of busting on the system of Education it

33:51
really sour me to to it even more okay that being said there is a lot of value

33:59
in the networking opportunities and that's what Malcolm glidewell would say like that education Harvard is it worth

34:06
more than education at Penn State or whatever probably not I mean depending

34:11
on who you're learning from there might be some professors that truly do are excellent you know whatever

34:17
realistically that networking process is available at either School no no no no

34:23
he would say the network networking opportunities you get through Harvard are much greater okay much greater

34:30
because the people that you're rubbing elbows with have OPP influence or know people with higher influence and you

34:38
basically the the the trajectory of coming out of Harvard is much higher than coming out of some other ones not

34:44
necessarily because you're learning more but because you're rich people you know hanging out with rich people who know

34:50
other rich people okay does that make sense yeah no I was that's where I was that's why I was kind of cuz when you

34:55
were saying you know I figure you know like when you said Penn State and Columbia you know your your people at

35:03
Penn State would still know other people correct but they're not going to know the president IBM right like or you know

35:10
what I'm saying no no I hear you so yes you might you'll still that's I would say that's an advantage of going to

35:16
college period is there are networking opportunities you gain through that whether it's from class you know co-

35:22
classman and yeah or you know professors or whatever certainly there's there's

35:27
some networking opportunities there that you probably can't get you know without

35:33
doing that so I think there's value in that too I think there's a lot of value in in higher education that's why I was

35:39
saying I would never argue there isn't but I'm very much with you in the sense of we don't need to shove it force it

35:45
down our kids throat like there are other ways to get the same opportunities

35:52
so now realistically I'm understanding there's other ways to I should say the same opportunities but you know what I'm

35:58
saying there's other ways to get opportunity so I realize there's other ways to you know pay there's you know

36:05
different ways to pay for your education as well yeah you know in that process B hard hard knocks you know but as we were

36:13
you know kind of looking into the topics you think you know roughly the average cost you know for

36:22
for instate was like 120,000 and then you know a private

36:27
school is like 220,000 and then you know your Harvard Education was like 330,000 yeah in that

36:36
process for four years yep and when I think about that it's like can you

36:42
really offset that right difference and granted I'm simple

36:49
thoughts in that process you know what I'm looking at how how much and and granted does does everyone who goes to

36:58
that University still have all of that same networking opportunity even right

37:04
you know that's the other part of it I guess is you know I think about it and it's like where where do you draw the

37:10
line and granted I you know me personally I think you know an education

37:17
shouldn't call I'm not I'm not a socialist but yet there's a part of me that is able to recognize okay where

37:24
does this line you know where do we draw this line as far as how much we saddle

37:30
the Next Generation with this you know this

37:35
educational yeah Dynamic and granted that's probably another topic for another um you know discussion as far as

37:43
you know educational cost that kind of thing where does that how much of that is yeah how's that derived in a way that

37:52
you know doesn't just say well you know if the government's going to pay for this you know we just keep going you

37:59
know yeah you can get going north yeah the prices yeah you can get loans and

38:04
but yet somebody ultimately is going to pay someday you know that kind of thing

38:10
but different yeah where do you draw that line I guess is what I'm coming back to well if you the older I get okay

38:20
fair enough the more the less I see that there are lines the more I see that uh

38:27
so much of the world we live in is uh make believe okay right the value of our

38:33
dollar okay it's not backed by anything anymore agreed hasn't been for decades

38:39
it's a makeb believe number that's based on what some you know someone says and

38:45
we believe if we stop believing it well the value goes down I gotta and that's that's you know so is that how you look

38:53
at education then uh in some ways yes I feel like okay you know Harvard everyone

38:58
says Harvard's good so we believe Harvard's good so we go there and everyone who goes there is believed to

39:03
be smarter because they went there sure they have higher opportunities because they went there you know what I mean it's all kind of

39:10
just and again I'm not saying there's no truth to it but I am saying you know you ask where the line

39:17
is I don't know I don't think there I feel like it's just all abstract and

39:23
arbitrary already so how could we say that there's a line got you so I'm I'm

39:29
going to bring it back to a little more practical okay aspect uh Mia comes home and basically

39:36
says I want to go here yeah

39:41
blank and you're starting to automatically those numbers that we just talked about are going through your head

39:48
it's like okay that's a good choice that's on the that's on the hundred 100 you know version or oh my goodness she

39:56
actually picked that choice right that's that's the $300,000 version

40:01
right well what's your next conversation going to sound like it's going to sound

40:08
like it's just going to be a conversation with Mia about's the reality of you choose that or not paying

40:14
for that we there no way we can afford that or you know what I mean we're not we're not takeing on that debt if you

40:21
can figure out how to get you know scholarships whatever certainly that's amazing certainly we we we can we'll do

40:28
our best to help but we can't yeah we're not a Harvard family I'm sorry we're not

40:33
and if that's the direction you want to go you're going to require some Supernatural help that comes from Way

40:39
Beyond your parents you know what I mean so that's that conversation understand

40:44
but honestly this is a brand new conversation yeah probably should have been talking about much more before now

40:50
but Megan and I are just beginning the conversations about what that looks like and

40:55
um and yeah I'm kind of more in the camp

41:01
of yeah I I'm going to I think the kids are going to have to figure out more

41:06
than than than they're going to want to we're not going to be able to afford to put three kids through college like

41:12
$100,000 College I got you that's my perspective right now sure

41:18
um but yeah so I honestly I it really comes down to hey is that really the

41:24
kind of debt you want to settle yourself with precis and Advising them maybe I wouldn't do

41:30
that if I were you but if you believe that you know cuz that's the thing too kids at me as age and that's part of

41:38
what Megan's been saying is just like she she can't know right now MH as smart

41:43
as she is as intuitive as she is MHM like she's 16 yep things are change

41:50
going to change so many time I mean like you helicopter pilot to Riflemen to to

41:56
you know to all those things is a perfect example

42:01
of kind of what this time of life looks like is the size the limit and I have

42:07
you know 22 ideas and all of them could be amazing and I'll do great in any of them and reality starts to set in and um

42:15
so there there's some of that too where why would I why would I encourage my kid

42:20
to sadle themselves with $100,000 debt when I'm not convinced they'll use it you know what I mean and um so yeah I I

42:29
just and yeah there is that part that says okay there's a process here and and

42:34
you know when we're we're getting education for a job that may not even exist you know right now but at the same

42:42
time yeah you think about it and then on the other hand you think about I do think about it from that that trade

42:48
perspective you know to where yeah for that same I'd say that same four years

42:55
yeah you know you don't necessar have the you know the

43:00
indebtedness and yet you can I think you could inverse the situation essentially

43:05
right sure from what we are looking at with the numbers sure pretty close to that on average on average in a in the

43:13
trade you're able to you know make around $50,000 a year give or take on average so in four years you've doubled

43:21
mhm and again we're we're discounting the investment side of that right um

43:27
well we're we're acknowledging there is a investment but you're not paying out

43:34
of you're not paying funds for it you're giving of your time in such a way that

43:39
says okay I am learning a process I am learning a trade and therefore I can

43:45
take that forward and I and the only and I think for me the the only drawback to

43:51
that is it's it's less transferable trades

43:57
yeah that's true um I would but I think that's often packaged as its own benefit

44:03
sure uh not not the not transferable part but the kind of the the cousin to

44:09
that argument is this thing will always be around sure right and I think that's

44:15
kind of the sold as a benefit to the trades is doubt you should you should just go this route because everyone's

44:21
always going to need their haircut everyone's always going to need their pipes cleared you know that kind of thing where you know what you're going

44:28
to school for you know might not be a thing in 5 years exactly but like you

44:33
said there's a transferable education seems to be a little more transferable when sure yeah

44:39
no yeah interesting when you and and that's that's where you know to where

44:45
that fouryear investment I may not necessarily be able to recoup if I

44:51
decide that okay yeah I've done my four years in this and you know I don't see

44:57
myself being able to do this you know indefinitely so I may need to you know

45:03
get a little higher education to be able to add to that yeah and recognize okay I

45:10
didn't have I I had an investment but at least I'm not in debt in this point and

45:15
I have some resources to be able to put towards my education or I build my

45:21
education in a slower manner yeah and therefore you know I can avoid some of that indeed

45:27
you know versus just going through the the process of getting a degree in four years and being able to say all Shucks

45:34
yeah yeah there's also the the a kind of

45:40
complimenting the maturity argument about being forced into a institutional

45:45
thing can kind of help uh increase maturity but also the the nature of

45:52
having no money during the time where you're just learning how to be mature adult is I think in some ways beneficial

46:00
where if you give someone you know $50,000 a year and they're 20 MH where does that go it goes into new

46:09
shiny things probably right like I think there's you mean as far as an income if

46:14
you're actually making that versus giving when you were saying a college I was thinking tuition paying the tuition

46:20
I'm saying being a poor college student is probably uh a safer way to be in that at

46:28
that age than being given $50,000 a year and and saying sure you know be wise and

46:34
cuz I was thinking about again the investment side of things and how college is an investment and

46:40
um if you entered the trades and started making decent money and you started to

46:45
invest that you'd probably outpace the college people no matter what because uh

46:52
um what's the word compounding like you could you could definitely

46:57
Theory right because you start that compounding interest sooner could certainly in theory I think outpace a

47:05
lot of college students because you're just that far ahead of the game and you could start investing that sure does that

47:10
happen no rarely yeah I me you'd have to have some some significant upbringing

47:19
sure to really enforce that into and yeah or just be bent a certain way certain people obviously would be but

47:27
does that make sense like I think if you could somehow manage to train that then

47:33
they you could definitely outpace the college most you know again we're talking about averages or whatever yep

47:38
um I also think too I've thought a lot about this a lot in my life how opportunity isn't always tied

47:46
to you know what whatever your your skill set whatever you have under your

47:51
belt isn't always tied to opportunity sometimes opportunity just looks like hard work or looks like um

48:01
having character sure right and so and and sometimes not sometimes sometimes

48:08
it's tied to you look shady and we need some shady but uh but I think more than

48:14
anything whether you go to trades or whether you go to college building that character and building those you know

48:22
mental models to be able to think and deal with life that's what's most important

48:27
I think in both directions because opportunities are going to come to those who are prepared for it you know what I

48:33
mean does that make sense yeah so yeah

48:40
yeah I just went several different directions and came back that's all right it was that was a pretty short

48:46
trip nice I know was like whichit no no so yeah it's just uh it's an interesting

48:52
thing to think about and I think about it it you know I guess when I think about okay what's the what's the purpose

48:59
of the podcast when you you know break it down I think there is a lot to be

49:04
said for you know getting a education and the ability to build off of that and

49:10
yet I'm I'm going to recognize that's not for everybody yes and I think you know there you know I think our culture

49:19
tends to you know value that may be a little higher than we should in some

49:25
cases that you know I'm going to go off the college and I'm going to it reminded

49:31
me I'm going to go off the college and then I'll be able to get a career and be successful and yet I think there's also

49:37
some character involved with that as you were you know from my perspective what I heard of you at the end you know it's

49:42
like yeah you know still continue to recognize that who you are makes a

49:48
difference in either process as far as what you do with those finances whether

49:54
you're in a you know you're starting from a trade or whether you're just basically saying okay yeah I'm going to

50:00
go this much in debt I think there's you know two ends of a of a spectrum there and being able to say okay yeah do I

50:08
need what I guess I'm I'm thinking about boiling down to you know what is the

50:14
purpose you know and do I want to have money I want to have lots of money right

50:20
now or you know I want to have lots of money in the future either way I think

50:25
you're kind of looking at an empty you know life with that perspective yes and

50:32
you know being able to boil it down and say okay yeah I may not I may not be

50:38
feeling led to you know go to higher education not that you don't accept influence from family and say Hey you

50:43
know but I also think there's something to be learned in that process you know that there it's it's not a it's not an

50:51
end all Beall as far as you know the education is concerned but but yeah

50:57
that's just that's I I guess I'm thinking about it in the as far as the the topic itself yeah being able to

51:04
think about it in such a way that says okay what am I what am I designed to do and being able to recognize that if I'm

51:13
obedient in that process by God's grace I will find

51:19
success yes you know yes and I think so often we can tend to Define SU ESS from by income

51:29
we can tend to want to Define it that way and I don't think that's always beneficial I I think that's rarely

51:36
beneficial or other income derived you know parameters sure like yeah yeah I

51:43
agree I think fulfillment in in what you're do on a daily basis matters more

51:48
than the amount of money you make sure and if you are fulfilled in what you're doing you likely make the money you need

51:55
you know what I mean and uh yeah there are artists who make almost no money but they're happy and they do it and you

52:02
know and and that's all they need there are corporate you know lawyers who make

52:07
a bajillion dollars and they're feel unfulfilled and yep you know there's also fulfill ones who are fulfilled and

52:14
that you know I think that's also its own yep um caricature and I and I think

52:19
that's a part of you know that that process of doing what I you know believe

52:26
or feel I was designed to do and I think there's something to be said for that

52:32
there's also something to be said for influence so you know if if you have a

52:39
desire to be the president for instance yeah going to law school is not a bad idea understood you know what I mean

52:45
versus going to a trade school does that make sense I think I think there there's a there's going to be some you know

52:52
outside of Providence and Grace there's going to be some natural limits to the amount of infuence you have depending on

52:57
the tracks you choose so depending on what you're I mean but again how do you do do

53:04
do presidents know they want to be a president when they're in high school I suppose there are probably a few that I

53:10
hear you that felt that way I don't that's it we're going to have to get some president ex presidents on here

53:16
yeah yeah how many are there now re's not available anymore I don't think so but I was thinking he he had a Hollywood

53:22
career Carter too just oh yeah or was that his wife either way that was his wife I think so I think he's still okay

53:30
but yeah we could get the bushes they're still all available yeah yeah Clinton

53:35
Clinton's available we'll do that Obama's available we'll we'll touch base with our people

53:43
yeah but just imagine if we went to Harvard and we both had lawyer degrees

53:48
maybe that's in the realm of possibility I hear you probably not so much for the

53:54
reality of who we are but yeah where we come from that's okay yeah okay well

53:59
appreciate the discussion Justin yeah yeah yeah it's always good to chat about how we see it yeah it's a good and I

54:06
think you know in some ways it's a it's a good life cycle Sage because that was I think that was another probably even

54:11
more so what prompted that was you know Dean and I you know have kids in dun

54:17
yeah Dean dunberger and I were in the you know we have kids in the same kind of era you know going to college

54:24
graduating from college you know working through the trades you know yeah and you

54:29
know being able to recognize yeah each of our kids is different you know and being able to recognize okay you know

54:37
they're gonna they're going to they're going to by God's grace they're going to get it figured out you know and if

54:43
they're just walking in that obedience to the design you

54:48
know they'll be okay yeah by God's grace absolutely you know that kind of thing

54:54
so yeah yeah like I think from our perspective it's we see it's more about

54:59
the process than the actual sure specific details yep um so it's easy to

55:05
go well if you choose a trade it'll be okay if you choose College it'll be okay exactly but not not every parent has

55:10
that perspective I it's kind of like you have to do it the way I did it because that's how it works you know yeah

55:16
because of the pressure I felt yeah and I did it this way and it was I was successful therefore this is the path

55:22
sure right this is the way yep no doubt so yeah Mandalorian reference there you

55:28
go this is the way there you go this is how we see [Music]

55:35
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