Mark:

Oh yeah, I am live.

Justin:

Actually, we’re never quite live.

Mark:

No?

Justin:

Well we’re not.

Mark:

Oh, it’s recorded, yeah. But right now.

Justin:

We’re recording live.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

We are recording live.

Justin:

We are recording live.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’re not dead

Mark:

That’s true.

Justin:

And we are recording.

Mark:

It’s just not uh

Justin:

live broadcasting.

Mark:

Live broadcasting.

Justin:

We should do that sometime.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yeah, we can do that through something like um The real Instagram

Mark:

Are you planning on using your mic this morning?

Justin:

Oh Hello? You know I sh maybe sometimes I should just not have a microphone that forces me to

Mark:

The funny part was you were looking directly at me.

Justin:

Never so been so uninhibited. Now I got this in my face.

Mark:

There you go. Now you’re good.

Justin:

Good call though.

Mark:

Thank you. I try. I try. I’m not real technical, but occasionally I I can spot something, you know? I’m a noticer.

Justin:

Yeah. Good thing we weren’t doing this live. Uh anyway, we should that’d be fun sometime to do that. I don’t know if we have anybody watching, but we could we could try.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

Alright.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So what what are we talking about today, Mark? Do you have any preamble?

Mark:

A preamble? No, I don’t have a preamble this

Justin:

morning. Podcast.

Mark:

But I was thinking about it in the context we were uh we were talking about, you know, Mia and you know, just kind of thinking about years ahead And I was curious based on your late teens, okay, as far as what pressure did you feel To have an occupation Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

I mean I think it’s I think it’s part of the the process of growing up. you get asked, what do you want to do after school?

Justin:

Yeah. I um one thing that was nice is w basically as soon as I turned sixteen I started painting in the summers.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And so that was good in the sense of it relieved some tension in terms of I have to figure it out. Um Which I actually think helped me to decide more easily, if that makes sense.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um but no, I had a mentor, a friend who kind of advised me based on some of my specific skill sets I had already exhibited um which and he basically said I should look into graphic design, that kind of thing and I s I was like I don’t think I would have ever pegged myself for that except for that advice. And then once that bug was said, I was like, yeah, I really, really want to do that. And yeah.

Mark:

So that was something you were thinking about before graduation, is the graphic design stuff. Okay.

Justin:

Yep. Yeah, to the degree where I was trying to do some at home college stuff even before graduating.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Um

Mark:

cool.

Justin:

Yeah. And I ended up I can’t remember why that’s I can’t remember exactly how that went down, but it ended up not doing the rest of it because it I think it just wasn’t a very good

Mark:

number’s material. Yeah, I gotcha.

Justin:

Um So yeah, I mean f uh I don’t know if I might I have a good answer for that.

Mark:

It’s okay.

Justin:

What about you? Um

Mark:

I can remember, you know, I can remember a variety of answers to that question, you know, from early you know, kind of like adolescence up through, you know, my mentor was a rifle smith, so I was gonna be a rifle smith. There was a while there that I was gonna be a helicopter pilot, and then there was a while there I was gonna be a marine and then you know So all all that kind of stuff.

Justin:

How many of those did you do?

Mark:

Those are those are still on the chat. Those are still on the bucket list, I guess, if you really if I really come down to it. But um And it’s kinda interesting you were talking about, you know, your painting.

Justin:

You think the Marines will take you now?

Mark:

I don’t think so. I think I’m I’m aged out.

Justin:

You might want to cross that out publicly.

Mark:

I think yeah, over fifty. Uh you know, I think I just

Justin:

be like a chaplain. I

Mark:

pa I don’t know. Possibly. I’ve been asked to be a chaplain.

Justin:

Put it back on the buggy. Why didn’t you do it? Did you do it? No. I mean, nothing’s off the table.

Mark:

Nothing’s off the table. But no, that was like for the sheriff’s department type thing, you know. Yeah. But it was it was a it was a thought.

Justin:

That’d be an interesting other conversation.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Chaplain C because I don’t understand it.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

Anyway.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So all those things.

Mark:

But those things were all on the table. And um for me, you know um I can remember this conflict growing up, you know, as far as what I was gonna do. And I also knew based on who my parents were, you know, and their requirements, that I was not going to leave the Pratt household without a form of college education.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

That was definitely, you know, I would I was not you know, looking forward to college. But yet, you know, in school there was a definite amount of pressure you know, a lot of your, you know, all your SATs and, you know, you take all these tests to be able to, you know get into college and, you know, get your tuitions. And the I can remember that kind of, you know, pressure and comparison, you know, what you got on your SAT scores and you know, the only reason that I was um able to kind of I shouldn’t say get out of the house, but you know, um I talked my mom into uh basically construction. I was allowed to go to a two-year school, you know, uh a trade school, if you will. And that sufficed that requirement as far as getting an education before I left the house, you know, because I had looked in I’d actually looked into uh I actually went and tour to school to be a uh a phys ed teacher even.

Justin:

Oh wow.

Mark:

Yeah, and it and you know From my perspective at that point it was like too much like having not who I mean who doesn’t like gym class. Yeah. But at the same time it’s like this is continual gym class, you know, and it seems kinda it didn’t seem like something I wanted to necessarily be doing, but at the same time, you know, it was one of those things I was checking off and visited schools. You know, I visited schools, that kind of thing. But uh yeah, and uh it was just uh it was one of those things that I just had really very little interest in further education at that point just because of who I was.

Justin:

So in if that was not an interest, then what was your mindset of like, well uh well, I would just do this. I’d rather not go to school ’cause I’d I have a I’d like to do this thing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

All those things you mentioned, except for the Marines, I guess. Would have to require have some school, right?

Mark:

Uh yeah, I mean an education of sorts, yes.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

But at the same time my the the the mentor that I had, you know, I kind of saw him as that ability to go through like a a journeyman process type, you know

Justin:

thing

Mark:

that that probably

Justin:

Like a Padawan. What’s the word for that?

Mark:

You got me on Padawan. I’m thinking Star Wars now at this point.

Justin:

I know. It jumped the trap. Apprentice. Apprentice. Yeah, I’m sorry. Apprenticeship. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Yes. Journey then apprentice.

Justin:

So that was kind of like top of mind for you.

Mark:

That was an option. And and granted, the the helicopter pilot was through a military. you know, option. It wasn’t necessarily, you know, something that I was gonna

Justin:

How’d your parents feel about the military idea? Um

Mark:

mom wasn’t necessarily as supportive of it. You know, she was a little more fearful of it. Dad

Justin:

feel like most moms.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s that’s probably

Mark:

and then dad my dad had been in the military, so of course he would have been. Yeah. He was, you know, he was in the army. He was actually uh he was actually in Um, that’s kind of a neat story of uh found out about Christmas. Um He was actually in between the Korean War and the Vietnam War. Mm-hmm. And back then he was actu he was, you know, and some of his buddies, of course, they were actually drafted. My dad was, you know, part of the draft in that era. Yeah. And um it was kind of neat because he did his two years. They had drafted, they were he was drafted for two years. And um he basically said, you know what, I I felt a calling, he said, to stay in the military. And he actually, you know, a lot of his buddies got out. in their two years, but he re-signed for another three years and just stayed in. But he did say, you know, by the time um Vietnam was starting to heat up. He was starting to sweat it a little bit. You know, that he might get, you know, extended um, you know, for the Vietnam War. And he wasn’t necessarily looking forward to that, but at the same time he uh he, you know, did his three years, you know, total five years and then got out and he wasn’t extended or anything like that. But Yeah, it was just so he had uh you know, he would definitely have a different he would have had no issues with me being in the military, that kind of thing. But yeah, mom wasn’t necessarily didn’t share that viewpoint.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To the same degree.

Justin:

Yeah, it makes sense.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. So she wasn’t, you know, anti-military or anything. It was just that concern of, yeah. So it might happen.

Justin:

What route did you take?

Mark:

What route did I take? I ended up um I ended up going and getting a degree uh in uh And carpentry and building constructions technologies.

Justin:

Well then

Mark:

it’s like I don’t think you can make a carpenter sound more complicated than that. You know, really is what it was. But um Yeah, it was uh I had a I had a great that was a great experience for me. Oh it really was. I

Justin:

Why? Just very hands-on.

Mark:

Very hands-on.

Justin:

Yeah, apprenticeship. style.

Mark:

Yep, to where, you know, we, uh, it w it was definitely apprenticeship style. We had I st I make my kids, they still hear the stories, you know, and They still my the kids my kids know names of people they’ve never met just because the stories are that way, you know. And then uh actually was able to catch up with a buddy of mine, Dean Dunkelberger.

Justin:

Dunkle Burger. Yeah. Wow.

Mark:

Yeah, over uh over Christmas. We hadn’t seen each other.

Justin:

Dunkle Burger.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah, that was his name. Dunk, you know, that kind of thing. But um I actually actually was able to catch up with him. He’s still in the trades.

Justin:

He’s not fictional, right?

Mark:

No, he’s not fictional. Yeah. Yep. But uh

Justin:

don’t go burger. It’s a good name.

Mark:

It is. It’s a solid name. Yeah. And uh so yeah, him and I were great friends. He he was uh he was actually a tradesman. I mean he he just When you think of craftsman, you know, he’s that kind of person in my era. You know what I’m saying? I mean, I don’t I I don’t say that lightly I just think when I look back at like post-beam construction when you were bit bracing everything, you know, and uh using a hand you know, uh when you were drilling and you had to hew things by hand, you know, with uh ads or, you know, when you’re actually those guys were craftsmen in my opinion.

Justin:

Okay, got it.

Mark:

You know what I’m saying? Too when you when you have power tools. But I’m the I’m just I just recognize that my era has a lot of the blessings of power tools. Yeah and you can buy lumber, you know, yeah, you know, milled

Justin:

dimensional

Mark:

Yeah, dimensional lumber, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, that kind of thing. So I that’s I for me, you know, it’s

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, I I hear I hear what you’re saying.

Mark:

It would be like it’d be like comparing uh baseball players pre-steroids, you know, to some you know, those those records and so forth. But either way, yeah, he was he is, you know, uh what I would consider a craftsman in my generation, you know, as far as that goes. But uh so yeah, I went there, um ended up Going there for two years, um, like say we built city buildings. It was a it was it was actually um it’s now Pen Pentec or Pennsylvania College of Technology. Um, it was based in William Sport, PA. And we had in the school, what was really neat, the school had a really good the um the administration at the school had built uh an alliance with the city of Williamsport. Okay. So we actually did city buildings. We built city projects. You know, I I remember working on, you know, bus garages, land blocks and you know, and putting roofs on and pouring flat work for the concrete in the garages, you know. So it was really a good partnership. I don’t know how the labor worked out or the insurance, you know, worked for the but Yeah, I can remember, you know, just doing a lot of stuff like that to where it was really hands-on. And then, you know, we’d actually go like um the logging, there was a logging part of the school as well and we’d go up and build up their buildings, you know, when they needed to and that kind of thing, whenever there was an expansion, you know. So yeah, it was it was it was a really hands-on thing and you know

Justin:

Well what’s what’s cool about that idea going to school for carpentry, right? Sure is you’re gonna learn from someone who wants to teach.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I just think about a lot of trades, you know, you kinda enter in as a d you know, a junior green greenhorn, right? And you’re immediately met with the ornary seniors who just don’t want you there. You’re just slowing them down and you know, like I think that Honestly, I think, you know, when you talk about trades versus you know, non trades, whatever. Um, I feel like a lot of people are turned off to trades because of that. Really? Yeah, where they did that in the summers as a kid or whatever, but like

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Then it, you know, they they moved on to bigger, better things, quote unquote, went to college or whatever because there was no appeal to spend any more real time in that. Sure. There’s not an idea that this could be a career because who wants to be in an environment like that. ‘Cause that I think that is one of the you know, we’re if we’re talking about trades versus what do we call the other side, I don’t know.

Mark:

Higher education maybe?

Justin:

Sure. Yeah. Sure. Whatever those jobs are white collar, blue collar maybe. Okay. Maybe. I don’t know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, but I do feel like there’s uh But actually it c aga that’s true on both sides. Obviously you can have your corporate jerks, you know, too. But um I don’t know. I definitely worked with some jerks as a painter. But they also taught me a lot and you know, there were some fun times, but also there was some like just just beat down times where you know they were in a bad mood so there was nothing you could do right. You know what I mean? And I just feel like that’s that’s not a good way to teach someone the value of a trade and and to be you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um so I feel like what you’re describing, actually going to school for carpentry, that sounds like I don’t know that I’ve ever heard anyone.

Mark:

And I think so much I’m I’m I’m thinking about it, you know, and I think it’s kinda sad in my opinion. I think, you know, w when I grew up, granted there’s a lot of things that have changed, but you know, we had this uh vocational aspect that was part of school. You know, in other words, you had

Justin:

rifleman thing?

Mark:

No, no, no. That was Sportsman’s Club. But you know, Vol um VOAG was like FFA or Future Farmers of America, that kind of thing. Um, and then you still had like a formal shop class.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or you had, you know, metallurgy type stuff, you know, where you were actually equipping people, you know, to have to go into trades, you know, and that kind of thing, which I think is is a valuable thing. And I think, you know, we’ve given so much Uh we’ve we’ve taken so much focus to higher education. I think some of that has gone away.

Justin:

Well, I think it’s

Mark:

that there’s still a need.

Justin:

Yeah. I think it shifted actually. I think there’s a lot more computer classes. Which is kind of our you know, generations version of what you’re describing.

Mark:

Sure. No, I can’t.

Justin:

You know what I mean? Where we’re prepping them to understand how computers work and because, you know, we’re prepping them for the the work world, which is you know computers is a big part and now phones obviously, but

Mark:

sure.

Justin:

Um so I think I think it still happens, it just looks different.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And there’s less shop classes and more computer rooms. You know what I mean?

Mark:

No, I hear you there.

Justin:

But

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But yeah, there’s a second.

Mark:

And then I think there’s th there’s still that aspect of, you know, the I th or maybe um uh a myth, if you will, you know, you have to go to college to, you know get a good education in order to be a successful person.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

I guess I you know, I would see that as part of the myth that, you know, I grew up under in some ways.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know. And by all means when I say that, I’m not anti, you know, higher education, that kind of thing.

Justin:

See.

Mark:

And yet I also recognize, you know, I think there’s a an ability to I think it’s and it and I I don’t want to necessarily just break it down to, you know income. You know, I think I think, you know, different people are designed with different abilities for different reasons and for purpose.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and to basically say and and It’s a little other I can remember a uh one of the constru uh you know construction people is like, so you know, you wanna be you wanna be a carpenter, you wanna be in construction, grab a shovel You know, ’cause I mean th that was that’s the reality in some cases. You know, it’s like you’re gonna start out in the ground and you gotta build your way up. You know, that was the you know, everybody wanted to, yeah, I’m gonna grab a hammer or you know, that kind of thing. But it’s for me today, you know, I it’s just it’s just fun when I can grab a shovel and start digging in the ground. That’s just part of who I am. you know, in that process. I don’t mind and even, you know, even John, you know, he doesn’t mind like digging a ditch. Not that we want to dig a ditch all day, but it’s like one of those things that you c you just it’s kinda like mowing the lawn It’s very therapeutic for me to be able to just dig, you know, with a shovel. And I you know, I think that’s just part of my makeup.

Justin:

Call it shovel therapy.

Mark:

Shovel therapy. But yeah, you know, to where I and I think people are designed differently, you know, and yeah. I th I think there are people who, you know, higher education, you know, college education is definitely their thing. You know. Yeah. And I think, you know, there may have been a time and I’m I’m, you know, I’m thinking about it a little more where, you know, we’ve taken kids and made them say, well, you know You gotta you gotta get a college education. And I don’t think that’s necessarily for everyone. And I think in that process we’ve kind of minimized some of the opportunities to have a broader, you know, and I Yeah.

Justin:

I th I think too often uh I mean we can be a little bit deterministic Like some people are good at this and other people are good at that, and I think while that’s true, and I definitely think there are specific bents. Sure. I’m not disbandling that idea. But I do think we’re capable of doing way more than any one of us think we are. And the people who say, Well, I’m I’d never be good at going to college and I I’m I can’t learn that kind of stuff. It’s like, well But you did because what you’re doing right now required a lot of learning, a lot of skill, you know, a lot of dedication. And again, I’m I’m not saying it’s the same thing. I understand sitting behind in in a de at a desk in a classroom or whatever, I understand that’s different. Um and and and vice versa, you know, people who go to college or whatever and they never get their hands dirty and just think, Man, I could never dig a ditch and it’s like mm yeah you could, there’s a trouble and there’s dirt. Like you certainly could and

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um so I think part of what I don’t like about the push for college andor trades or whatever is just this idea that people can be good at one thing or the other. And I think I think we’re actually better uh if we can have some well rounded experiences. I think that’s gonna provide us a better path in our life if we can realize I can dig a ditch, I can swing a hammer, and I can also sit behind a desk and I can also read a book.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And having that ability to do both sides of that equation, I think is actually going to provide uh equip you to be Have a bigger tool set for dealing with life.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Is that fair? Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, that’s more that’s yeah. A broad range of Ability. Yeah is basically what to be able and I and I think you bring up a good point so often, you know, I think we can become judgmental.

Justin:

Yeah. On

Mark:

the other end, or, you know, those Neanderthals on the other end, you know, undeveloped, unthought, you know, and But yeah, there’s something to be able to be said for, yeah, doing a trade, but yet still getting further qualifications or, you know, or going to a, you know something that you learn from. I remember when we we did our houses uh when we did when I was building, you know, I we I went to like um A training, if you will, you know, to be able to do the arcs blocked is uh the concrete form construction CFCs It’s like where you see yeah. It’s basically big

Justin:

Yeah, building a form to pour concrete. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And you know, I don’t remember and that that was a fun time. I can remember, you know Just going in and, you know, and I so I enjoyed learning about new yeah technologies in the construction industry, you know, and I think that was beneficial. You know, to where it’s not like you’re not continuing to grow in your education.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think it’s just the format that tends to be off putting at times. Yeah. When we think about it true in a dramatic sense.

Justin:

Yeah, I d I don’t blame anyone who thinks about the idea of going to college and Yeah. Wants to puke. This idea of kind of the construct that you have to follow. And I also don’t blame anyone who said thinks about digging ditches or do swinging a hammer and being told to pick up a shovel and like kind of that degrading idea. You know what I mean? I I I don’t it all makes sense. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Um Uh you may be think have you ever heard of the Shelter Institute?

Mark:

The Shelter Institute? No.

Justin:

It’s uh where they teach how to um Ah, shoot. Hang on. I g I gotta go Google it ’cause I can’t remember the term. Shelter Institute.

Mark:

You’re it’s

Justin:

timber framing.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

It’s where they they do hands-on uh workshops to teach timber framing.

Mark:

Oh wow, cool.

Justin:

Well I when you were talking about the concrete form construction and learning new things, uh my brain went to thinking about learning old things, which is what that is, essentially learn learning the old school ways of timber framing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh sorry, that was a complete trail, but

Mark:

yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

I was wondering if you heard of it.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

Anyway, that to me sounds really cool, this idea of going somewhere for this. It’s I think a week long or two week long workshop where you actually construct uh some sort of barn frame or something in with like twenty, thirty people and you’re all learning how to use these tools and

Mark:

The old barn raisings and I um I forget where we were. I want to say it was someplace in Texas, but you know, whenever you go to uh some of these historical places. They’ll actually have, you know, workshops.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that teach you how to, you know, make a cradle or something. You know, something that people did with, you know crude, I’ll call it crude, but you know, hand planes, you know, that kind of thing to be able to, you know, actually mill something, make something out of something. But yeah, it’s a

Justin:

You know, there’s this new hybrid uh uh path you can take. It’s not necessarily a trade, it’s not necessarily college. Yeah to YouTuber I’m kind of joking, but there’s actually this whole realm of career options that Your generation and my generation don’t even think about what chase. Well, I could learn how to do a thing and show, you know, demonstr you know, video it or whatever and and and that combination of skills is actually very lucrative too. Right? Like if you can figure it out and whatever. I’m not advocating for that. I’m just saying There’s there’s realms that we don’t even think about. Another one is a real thing is gamers, right? People who game and they video it and they live stream it and people, you know, they can make money out that. Like that’s a real thing. I know. It’s mind blowing. It really is.

Mark:

I’m glad it’s mind blowing for you.

Justin:

It is. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Like even my like our gener I’m in an older generation at this point, Mark. Like as much as uh I like to think I’m young, I’m not. Uh I hear you. So I mean there’s there’s whole career options now that we’re not even you know twinkling our parents’ eyes.

Mark:

No, I hear

Justin:

my eye.

Mark:

And I think that’s the I I will say I think that is kind of the beauty, if I may say so, or one of the advantages of a college education. It’s not that you necessarily have to get an education in a specific arena and go into that arena. I would you know I know there’s probably statistics out there I didn’t look ’em up, but you know, Vera I would say, you know, the minority are actually using their education you know, based on

Justin:

Do you think that’s directly proportional to the amount of money you spent?

Mark:

I don’t know.

Justin:

Like lawyer school, right? Or like

Mark:

you mean like a doctor Harvard. The more the more you spend on your education, the more likely you are to be in that. I h I hear where you’re coming from. I could yeah. I could see that.

Justin:

I interrupted you.

Mark:

No, it’s okay. But I was thinking about it in that context as far as, you know so often it’s about completing something, you know, and going through the process of being able to say, okay, I can commit to this learning process. Therefore, I can commit to this, you know, opportunity and I am a dependable individual that can be counted on to complete a project.

Justin:

Yep. Yeah, I that’s a great point. I think there’s a lot of things to be learned by going to college um that aren’t exactly the thing you’re learning. Exactly.

Mark:

Outside of your what do you what do you call that? Um your Curriculum.

Justin:

Degree. Your degree. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And I mean uh that I also we were briefly talking about the military a little bit, but I think that’s true of that avenue as well.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think both of those directions are a way to short circuit some maturity.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think. You know what I mean?

Mark:

To build it, you mean? The build maturity.

Justin:

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Mark:

You said short circuit mature.

Justin:

Short circuit to yeah, getting to some mature mindsets of how the world works and you know, you gotta show up and do what they ask you to do. I think

Mark:

whether you feel like it or not.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. I think that’s a that’s you know, a four year way or two year, depending on where you go, whether military or whatever, but like you’re gonna learn that pretty quick.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um and I think that’s a very valuable thing to get out of those.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

Um yeah.

Mark:

And I would say, you know, that that eighteen to twenty two year time frame is a good op good time to develop that, you know. Yeah. I think it’s important to be able to kind of step away, you know, maybe from some of the family systems and learn how to you know, think independently. Yep. Not that I don’t accept influence, but yeah, that’s a

Justin:

good

Mark:

that’s a good life cycle stage development, you know, in that process.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

So as you m as you think about it and granted kinda I think part of another part of the college thing your or pressure I felt early on was, you know, it was it was gonna be impossible to, you know, have a good income to support a family on, I think was another thought that kind of went to the the only way to really make a living. The really only way to really make a living is to get a college education.

Justin:

Yeah, I remember that old school thinking of like, you got don’t you want to support your family? Well, you better get to college, you know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think, you know, we’re, you know I don’t think that’s necessarily mm realistic, you know, when when we think about, you know, the kind of money that it takes to go to school now.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, and I think about, you know, as I’m as I’m you know, uh working with younger kids, not younger kids, but young adults, you know, recognizing the the level of um indebtedness they have to school, I feel I you know, that’s That’s difficult for someone from my perspective to to stomach in such a way that says, okay, you know, we have a We have basically what we could buy a house for into a four-year education or that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it just doesn’t seem like it should be that way.

Justin:

Which Number one, I’m fully agreeing with you.

Mark:

But you can disagree as well.

Justin:

But secondarily, I think it’s an investment, right? Like that’s the whole idea. And so if You know, the argument it it’s not that difficult to combat the argument you just made, even though I fall on your side of it. To say yeah, but Does that mean you shouldn’t start investing right now for retirement?

Mark:

No, yeah. Right? Like

Justin:

of course you should. Like yeah, it’s gonna pay you’re gonna pay money right now for something you’re not gonna see. For years and years and years and years and years, right? Like and so uh you know, obviously the argument can be made. Yeah. You’re relying on that as I

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

All right, fair enough. Uh but yeah, I mean uh education absolutely it’s that’s how it’s sold and I think there is truth to it depending on where you went, what you you know, whatever, what you got out of it. Um so you you can’t discount that that side of it either.

Mark:

So just out of curiosity, along that that that line, um, do you think where you got your education makes a difference? Say Harvard versus you know, what’s your take on that?

Justin:

I mean, I’ve actually uh I feel like I’ve heard heard a lot of different podcasts about this kind of thing. I I listen to Malcolm Gladwell a lot.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Uh you’re familiar with him.

Mark:

I know of the name.

Justin:

He really likes to dismantle the idea of certain c prestige of certain colleges and he there’s this one report. that comes out every year.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Of the rankings of schools. And he just talks about how corrupt that process is and how Columbia got n to number two and they basically just lied about everything.

Mark:

Oh wow. And therefore

Justin:

got to number two and he just Yeah, it it was a very good, very good episode. Oh wow. to it even more.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

That being said, there is a lot of value in the networking opportunities. And that’s what Malcolm Gladwell would say, like That education in Harvard, is it worth more than education at Penn State or whatever? Probably not. I mean, depending on who you’re learning from, there might be some Professors that truly do are excellent, you know, whatever.

Mark:

Realistically that networking process is available at either school.

Justin:

No, no, no, no. He would say the networking networking opportunities you get through Harvard are much greater.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Much greater because of the people that you’re rubbing elbows with have opp influence or know people with higher influence and you basically the the the trajectory of coming out of Harvard is much higher than coming out of some other ones. not necessarily because you’re learning more, but because you’re rich people you know, hanging out with rich people who know other rich people.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah, no, I was that’s where I was that’s why I was kinda because when you were saying, you know, I figure, you know Like when you said Penn State and Columbia.

Justin:

Correct. But they’re not gonna know the present level of the IBM, right? Like or you know what I’m saying?

Mark:

No, no, I hear you.

Justin:

So yes, you might s you’ll still That’s I would say that’s an advantage of going to college, period, is you there are networking opportunities you gain through that, whether it’s from class, you know, co classmen and yeah or you know, professors or whatever. certainly there’s there’s some networking opportunities there that you probably can’t get, you know, without doing that. So I think there’s value in that too. I think there’s a lot of value in in higher education. I that’s why I was saying I would never argue there isn’t, but I’m very much with you in the sense of we don’t need to shove it, force it down our our kids’ throat. Like There are other ways to get the same opportunities.

Mark:

So now realistically, I’m understanding there’s other ways to

Justin:

She didn’t say the same opportun But you know what I’m saying? There’s other ways to get opportunity.

Mark:

So I realize there’s other ways to, you know, pay there’s you know, different ways to pay for your education as well. Yeah. You know, in that process based. Hard knots, you know. But as we were, you know, kind of looking into the topics you think uh you know roughly the average cost, you know, for uh for in state was like a hundred and twenty thousand And then, you know, a private school is like 220,000. And then, you know, your Harvard education was like 330,000 in that process for four years.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And when I think about that, it’s like, can you really offset that difference? And granted, I’m simple thoughts in that process, you know, when I’m looking at how how much and and granted Does does everyone who goes to that university still have all of that same networking opportunity even?

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know, that’s the other part of it, I guess, is, you know, you I think about it and it’s like where where do you draw the line? And granted, I, you know, me personally, I think, you know an education shouldn’t ca I’m not I’m not a socialist, but yet there’s a part of me that is able to recognize, okay Where does this line, you know, where do we draw this line as far as how much we saddle the next generation with this, you know, this educational

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Dynamic. And granted, that’s probably another topic for another um, you know, discussion as far as, you know, educational costs, that kind of thing. Where does that, how much of that is

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

How’s that derived in a in a way that, you know, doesn’t just say, well, you know, if the government’s gonna pay for this you know, we just keep going, you know. Yeah, you can get

Justin:

going north.

Mark:

Yeah. You can get loans and but yet somebody ultimately is gonna pay someday, you know, that kind of thing. But Different.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Where do you draw that line? I guess is what I’m coming back to.

Justin:

Well

Mark:

if you

Justin:

the older I get.

Mark:

Okay. Fair enough.

Justin:

The more the less I see that there are lines, the more I see that uh so much of the world we live in is uh make believe.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Right? Like the value of our dollar.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

It’s not backed by anything anymore.

Mark:

Agreed.

Justin:

Hasn’t been for decades. It’s a make-believe number that’s based on what some you know, someone says and we believe. If we stop believing it, well the value goes down.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

And that’s that’s

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

You know, Harvard, everyone says Harvard’s good, so we believe Harvard’s good, so we go there and everyone who goes there is believed to be smarter because they went there.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

They have higher opportunities because they went there. You know what I mean? It’s all kind of just I’m and again, I’m not saying there’s no truth to it, but I am saying uh, you know, you ask where the line is. I don’t know. I don’t think there I feel like it’s just all so abstract and arbitrary already. So how could we say that there’s a line?

Mark:

I gotcha. So uh I’m gonna I’m gonna bring it back to a little more practical aspect. Um, Mia comes home and basically says, I want to go here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Blank. And you’re starting to automatically those numbers that we just talked about are going through your head. It’s like, okay, whoo, that’s a good choice. That’s on the That’s on the hundred hundred, you know, version. Or oh my goodness, she actually picked that choice.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

That’s that’s the three hundred thousand dollar version.

Justin:

Right. Well

Mark:

what’s your next conversation gonna sound like

Justin:

it’s gonna sound like uh I mean it’s just gonna be a conversation with Mia about the reality if you you choose that or not paying for that We there’s no way we can afford that. Or you know what I mean? We’re not we’re not gonna take it on that.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

If you can figure out how to get, you know Scholarships, whatever, th certainly that’s amazing. Certainly we we can we’ll do our best to help, but we can’t.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’re we’re not a Harvard family. I’m sorry. We’re not. And if that’s the direction you want to go. you’re gonna require some supernatural help that comes from way beyond your parents. You feel me? Yeah. So that’s that conversation. Understand. But honestly, this is a brand new conversation. Yeah. Probably should have been talking about a much more before now, but Megan and I are just beginning the conversations about what that looks like. And um And yeah, I’m kind of more in the camp of Yeah, I th I um I’m gonna I think the kids are gonna have to figure out more than than than they’re they’re gonna want to. We’re not gonna be able to afford to put three kids through college, like a hundred thousand dollar college.

Mark:

I gotcha.

Justin:

That’s my perspective right now. Sure. Um But yeah. So I I honestly I it really comes down to hey is that really the kind of debt you want to settle yourself with. And having those conversations and advising them uh maybe I wouldn’t do that if I were you, but if you believe that You know, ’cause that’s the thing too. Kids at Mia’s age and that’s part of what Megan’s been saying, is just like she she can’t know right now. As smart as she is, as intuitive as she is Like she’s sixteen.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Things are chang gonna change so many times I mean, like you, helicopter pilot to rifleman to to you know military to all those things is a perfect example of uh kind of what this time of life looks like. Is the size the limit and I have, you know twenty two ideas and all of them could be amazing and I’ll do great in any of them and reality starts to set in and um so there there’s some of that too where Why would I why would I encourage my kid to saddle themselves with a hundred thousand dollar debt when I’m not convinced they’ll use it? You know what I mean? And um so yeah, I I just

Mark:

And yeah, there is that part that says, okay, there’s a process here. And and you know, when we’re we’re getting an education for a job that may not even exist, you know, right now. But at the same time, yeah, you you think about it. And then on the other hand, you think about I do think about it from that that trade perspective, you know, to where, yeah, it’s for that same I’d say that same four years.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

you know, you don’t necessarily have the you know, the indebtedness.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And yet you can I think

Justin:

you could inverse the situation essentially, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

From what we’re looking at with the numbers

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Pretty close to that.

Mark:

On average on average in a in the trade you’re able to, you know, make around fifty thousand dollars a year, give or take. On average.

Justin:

So in four years you’ve doubled And again, we’re we’re discounting the investment side of that, right? Um

Mark:

Well we’re we’re acknowledging there is a investment, but you’re not paying out of you’re not paying funds for it, you’re giving of your time in such a way that says, okay, I am learning a process, I am learning a trade, and therefore I can take that forward. Yeah. And I and the only and I think for me the uh the only drawback to that is it’s it’s less transferable.

Justin:

Trades.

Mark:

Trades.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s true. Um I would but I I think that’s often packaged as its own benefit.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh not not the not transferable part, but the kind of the the cousin to that argument is this thing will always be around.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And I think that’s kind of the sold as a benefit to the trades is you should you should just go this route because d everyone’s always gonna need their hair cut. Everyone’s gonna always gonna need their clo pipes cleared. You know, that kind of thing where, you know, what you’re going to school for. You know, might not be a thing in five years. Exactly. But like you said, there’s a transferable education seems to be a little more transferable when you’re Interesting.

Mark:

When you th and and that’s what that’s where, you know, to where that four year investment I may not necessarily be able to recoup. If I decide that, okay, yeah, I’ve done my four years in this and, you know, I don’t see myself being able to do this you know, indefinitely. Yeah. So I may need to, you know, get a little higher education to be able to add to that and recognize, okay. I didn’t have I d I had an investment, but at least I’m not in debt in this point and I have some resources to be able to put towards my education or I build my education in a slower manner.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And therefore, you know, I can avoid some of that indebtedness. you know, versus just going through the the process of getting a degree in four years and being able to say, Oh shucks.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

There’s also the the m it’s a kind of Complementing the maturity argument about being forced into a institutional thing can it kind of help uh increase maturity. But also The the nature of having no money during the time where you’re just learning how to be a mature adult is I think in some ways beneficial, where if you give someone, you know, fifty thousand dollars a year and they’re twenty , mm, where does that go? It goes into new shiny things probably. Right? I think there’s there’s

Mark:

not as far as an income if you’re actually making that versus giving uh when you were saying a college, I was thinking tuition Paying your tuition.

Justin:

I’m saying being a poor college student is probably uh a a safer way to be in that at that age than being given fifty thousand dollars a year and and saying you know, be wise and ‘Cause I was thinking about again the investment side of things and how college is an investment and um if you entered the trades and started making decent money and you started to invest that, you’d probably outpace the college people no matter what. Sure. Because uh um What’s the word? Compounding interest. Like you could you could definitely in theory, right?

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Could it certainly in theory, I think, outpace a lot of college students because you’re just that far ahead of the game and you could start investing that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that happen? No.

Mark:

Rarely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean

Justin:

you’d have to have some some significant upbringing to really enforce that into you and or just be bent a certain way. Certain people obviously would be, but Right? But does that make sense? Like I think if you could somehow manage to train that, then they they you could definitely outpace the college. Most you know, uh again we’re talking about averages or whatever.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um I also think too, I’ve thought a a lot about this a lot in my life, how opportunity isn’t always tied to, you know, what Whatever your s your skill set, whatever you have under your belt isn’t always tied to opportunity. Sometimes opportunity just looks like hard work or looks like um having character.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And so and and sometimes not. Sometimes sometimes it’s tied to you look shady and we need some shady but uh but I think More than anything, whether you go to trades or whether you go to college, building that character and building those, you know, m mental models to be able to think and deal with life. That’s what’s most important, I think, in both directions because opportunities are gonna come to those who are prepared for it. You know what I mean? Sure. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So Yeah. I just went several different directions and came back.

Mark:

That’s all right.

Justin:

I know. No, no.

Mark:

So yeah, it’s just uh it’s an interesting thing to think about. And I think about it it, you know, I guess when I think about okay, what’s the what’s the purpose of the podcast when you, you know, break it down. I think there is a lot to be said for, you know, getting a education and the ability to build off of that. And yeah, I’m I’m gonna recognize that’s not for everybody.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I think, you know, there you know I think our culture tends to, you know, value that maybe a little higher than we should in some cases that, you know, I’m gonna go off the college and I’m gonna uh the it remind me I’m gonna go off the college and then I’ll be able to get a career and be successful. And yeah, I think there’s also some character involved with that, as you were, you know, from my perspective, what I heard of you at the end, you know, it’s like, yeah, you know, still continue to recognize that who you are makes a difference in either process as far as what you do with those finances, whether you’re in um you know, you’re starting from a trade or whether you’re just basically saying, okay, yeah, I’m gonna go this much in debt. I think there’s, you know, two ends of a s of a spectrum there. And being able to say, okay Yeah. Do I need what I guess I’m I’m thinking about boiling down to, you know, what is the purpose You know, and do I wanna have money? I want to have lots of money right now, or you know, I wanna have lots of money in the future. Either way, I think you’re kind of looking at an empty, you know, life with that perspective.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And you know, being able to boil it down and say, okay, yeah. I may not I may not be feeling led to, you know, go to higher education. Not that you don’t accept influence from family and say, hey, you know But I also think there’s something to be learned in that process. You know, that there it’s it’s not a it’s not a end all be all as far as you know the education is concerned. But yeah, that’s just that’s I I guess I’m thinking about it in the as far as the the topic itself.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Being able to think about it in such a way that says, okay, what am I how what am I designed to do And being able to recognize that if I’m obedient in that process, by God’s grace, I will find success.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And I think so often we can tend to define success f by income. We can tend to want to define it that way. And I don’t think that’s always beneficial. I d I think that’s rarely beneficial.

Justin:

Or other income derived, you know, parameters. Sure. Like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. I agree. I think fulfillment in in what you do on a daily basis matters more than the amount of money you make. Sure. And if you are fulfilled in what you’re doing, you’ll likely make the money you need. You know what I mean? I do. And uh yeah, there are artists who make almost no money, but they’re happy and they do it and you know and and that’s all they need. And there are big corporate You know, lawyers who make a bajillion dollars and they’re feel unfulfilled and you know, there’s also fulfill ones who are fulfilled. I mean that you know, I think that’s also its own um caricature. And I

Mark:

and I think that’s a part of, you know, that that process of doing what I, you know, believe or feel I was designed to do. Yeah. And I think there’s something to be said for that.

Justin:

There’s also something to be said for influence, so you know, if If you have a desire to be the president, for instance, going to law school is not a bad idea. You know what I mean? Versus going to a trade school. Does that make sense? I think I think there there’s a there’s gonna be some You know, outside of providence and grace, there’s gonna be some natural limits to the amount of influence you have depending on the tracks you choose. So depending on what your I mean, but again, how do you uh do you do do presidents know they want to be a president when they’re in high school? I suppose there are probably a few that that felt that way. I don’t I think that’s a We’re gonna have to get some president ex presidents on here.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. How many are there now?

Mark:

Reagan’s not available anymore.

Justin:

I don’t think so.

Mark:

But I was thinking he he had a Hollywood career.

Justin:

Carter too, just

Mark:

oh yeah.

Justin:

Or was that his wife?

Mark:

Either way. I think so.

Justin:

I think he’s still.

Mark:

Okay. But yeah. We could get the bushes. They’re still all available.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. And Clinton. Clinton’s available.

Justin:

We’ll do that. Obama’s available.

Mark:

We’ll we’ll touch base with other people.

Justin:

Yeah. But just imagine if we went to Harvard and we both had lawyer degrees, maybe that’s in the realm of possibility.

Mark:

I hear ya.

Justin:

Probably not so much for whatever we’re uh the reality of who we are. But

Mark:

where we come from.

Justin:

That’s okay.

Mark:

Yeah Well appreciate the discussion, Justin.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s always good to chat about how we see it.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s a good and I think, you know, in some ways it’s a it’s a good life cycle sage, because that was I think that was another or probably even more so what prompted that was, you know, Dean and I, you know, have kids in Dunkelberger. Yeah, Dean Dunkelberger. And I were in the you know, we have kids in the same kind of era, you know, going to college, graduating from college. you know, working through the trades, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, being able to recognize, yeah, each of our kids is different, you know, and being able to recognize, okay, you know They’re gonna they’re gonna they’re gonna by God’s grace, they’re gonna get it figured out, you know. And if they’re just walking in that obedience to the design. you know, n they’ll be okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

By God’s grace. Yeah, absolutely. You know, that kind of thing. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And like I think from our perspective, it’s we see it’s more about the process than the actual

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Specific details.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um so it’s easy to go, well, if you choose a trade, it’ll be okay. If you choose college, it’ll be okay.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

But not not every parent has that perspective. I that it’s kinda like you have to do it the way I did it because that’s how it works.

Mark:

Because of the pressure I felt.

Justin:

Yeah, and I did it this way and it was six I was successful, therefore this is the path.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? This is the way.

Mark:

Yep. No doubt.

Justin:

It’s a Mandalorian reference.

Mark:

There you go.

Justin:

This is the way.

Mark:

There you go. This is how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do.

Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I-C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.