Today, we discuss the confusing and potentially polarizing world of hypnosis, including the differences between stage and clinical hypnosis used for therapy. Clinical hypnosis can help people process trauma safely by altering mental states. We talk about hypnotism as a “gateway” similar to meditation and controlled breathing for shifting brain patterns. As with most “gateways”, the key is using these tools responsibly to help people gain positive shifts in their mental state and self-control.

Show Notes

• Huberman Labs episode discussed in the show (video version)
• https://www.gotquestions.org/hypnosis-Christian.html

Transcript

So the mic I can talk I don’t know whether I can talk out of the mic, but I suppose if I move my head all the way over here It is out of the mic and then this is in the mic.

So yeah, it’s a good way to describe the Glad we got that clear.

So just in case No pun intended Because my name is Justin.

That’s right.

Yeah, you’re feeling a little stiff this morning.

I am and you got Slipping the got a shul nine disc.

Oh, yeah Looks like you’re doing a shoulder torque over there or something.

You know, you’re trying to work it out How do you how do you stretch that one?

You need that you need those cross over the arms and pick yourself up by your elbows.

Yeah, that would that’s right.

Yeah, yeah Stop making me think about it How are you Mark?

I am well no a vertebrae Spothering you in the sky.

That’s good.

I didn’t get my stretching out the done this morning, but typically I get my stretches I didn’t know yeah, that’s because I gave you homework.

Yeah, you gave me homework and I was prepping I didn’t get my stretches in this morning my bad.

That’s okay.

I am good Do you have your quiet time kombucha?

I did I did I had my quiet time like say that was that was 330 so Had to make time for the other the prep so you know, but I was I was thought I was ready to go So yeah, we’ll quiet time kombucha the dogs just kind of laid at my feet and said hey This is a little early work.

Yeah, we’re glad to eat but now we’re just gonna lay down and finish the rest of our sleeping.

So yeah Yeah, but it’s good.

It’s good I If I would have done it at 9 30 last night when I received the tax they wouldn’t have been any right would have been Non-beneficial.

Yeah, so yeah, but it’s good.

It’s good to see you speaking of quiet time kombucha.

You got me Yeah, how’s that going?

Well, I think it’s going all right.

Yeah, you got a kombucha.

You got a scobe growing.

Yeah, okay Yeah, then you’re good.

It’s it’s doing its thing It’s a little bit hard to keep it at the temperature.

They’re saying, you know, 74 to 80 or whatever Yeah, it’s like well.

It just got cool out.

So yeah, no, I hear you Little heater mat that is like a foot heater.

Oh, yeah, I got it on that Is that working it’s working good.

It’s it kicks off on its own.

Oh, okay, so it can regulate it at a temperature Yeah, well, no, it doesn’t ever come back on.

Oh It doesn’t like cycle on right.

Okay.

Yeah, so it’s kind of one of those anyway.

Yeah New learning thing But it’s good good for you.

I’m looking forward to the reward.

It’s what we desired offer is new learning That’s right.

Oh, and speaking a new learner I made a mistake the other day other than the other well more probably more than one but in the podcast I was Chris brought to my attention.

I was using the term whole milk in place of raw milk.

Oh So for anybody, you know, that was confused by that Basically whole milk just means all of the fat is in it’s typically 4% But raw milk is non pasteurized, right?

So all of the bacteria and the enzymes that I believe are Designed in it.

Yeah, are available to our digestive system and when we pasteurize it We take out some of the good bugs with the What is not good, you know term not good bugs, you know, it’s like the balance is gone at that point So like say I’ve that was my bad because I was using whole Milk in place of raw milk in the podcast.

Yeah, and there’s what we’re talking about you were saying that You were saying home, but raw milk has a certain benefit or oh, yeah, raw milk has the actually the because we talking about so much lactose intolerance You know today in our in our food chain and that kind of thing and what happens is many of the Enzymes that are in raw milk are killed in the pasteurization process So many people who would consider themselves lactose intolerant can actually drink raw milk without the side effects Right.

Yep.

Oh, of milk and that kind of because the the digestion of the fat particles and so forth So yeah, that was a bad move on my part, but like say That’s all right.

Should we talk about pasteurization?

Not this morning, but yeah, I don’t I guess apparently that can be a polarizing topic.

Yeah, we’re gonna find out That’s my whole goal is to find out right.

That’s right.

Yeah But that’s actually not what we’re gonna have about this morning, right?

No, it’s not that’s not what you got up to do your homework That’s not that’s not But I did appreciate the opportunity to do the homework.

It was fun.

Yeah, it was fun.

It’s an interesting topic.

So yeah It’s about hypnotism.

We’re gonna talk a little bit about that.

Yeah in Depending on who you are what you’ve heard about or whatever it might be a very you might be on a polar side of whether you think it’s Boudou and evil or yeah, I think it’s a viable thing or or whatever, you know, so we’re gonna talk a little bit about that I first Heard a podcast on Huberman labs which I really like that podcast He talks a lot a lot about kind of some cutting edge science and stuff like that And I think we referenced him before I think more sure like when we talk about neuropathizity and neuropathways.

Yeah, yep And so this is you know kind of falls in a similar groove in terms of sure changing your brain.

Yeah But yeah, he yeah, it’s a good podcast Generally, I feel like it’s a it’s a solid one Yeah, but yeah I listen to one where he talked about hypnotism with a doctor who that’s been his focus his whole life And in fact his father was also that was his primary focus.

It was kind of cool doctors like Siegel Psychoanalyst Yeah, with the combination of hypnotism in that process.

So yeah, yeah, yeah Even that cycle analyst can have kind of its own connotation You kind of can go to the Freudian side of things, you know, and you think from a you know a therapy standpoint You know, so it’s just it’s just interesting to think about you know as the two come together for me personally is because I think you know We can have all of their are different views and I think that’s a that’s a good part of the hypnotism is Basically, you know, we tend to look at things on a on a continuum and one side might be one might we you know Somebody that looks at you know cognitive behavioral therapy or something, you know CBT Versus, you know cycle analysis type stuff, you know, it’s it’s gonna it’s gonna have a differing viewpoint Yeah to certain people based on that aspect of vulnerability and control and those kind of things that tend to create polarizing topics so yours I mean, I think you’re speaking from like a we’re all in on this and understand Volatile so I’ll just I’m gonna tease it out a little bit.

That’s plain to me because it sounds like you’re saying CBT cognitive behavioral therapy is one and a Potentially some sort of continuum where psycho analysis.

Maybe is that what you’re saying?

Yeah, my big Yeah, other in other words in other words when we think of psycho analysis We tend to think of Freudian and all of his and you know, if you will his flawed research based on you know Over focusing on sexualization, you know that kind of thing, you know that I believe they’re what he Found You know in many cases, you know these complexes if you will I think some of that is real in our in our Human experience, but the foundation that is all about being a sexual being Isn’t necessarily you know, yeah original and that’s not and that’s that’s not to give psycho analysis a bad rap In that process.

It’s just that individual and it’s also probably Correct me from wrong fear to say that that’s just one Yes, one Focus of yes, okay.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, what are some other and like well when you think of like CBT cognitive Neurotherapy, you know, we’re basically you know focusing on how I think You know in that process of being able to recognize Well quite often like you and I will talk about the always in the never’s yeah, you know that that process of the the flexibility of my thinking tends to Help me recognize whether whether I have the ability to be fluid in a changing Environment or whether I’m gonna maintain a Tied to your script.

Yeah, uh an unhealthy rigidity if you will I think you know Rigidity can be mislabeled as well.

I think you know, there’s something to be said for you know I think we need to have some flexibility in life now Yeah, nuts and you know, we’ve talked about that with open-mindedness Yeah, you know and and hypnosis for me is is a is a similar dynamic Granted for me personally, it’s I See it as another another gateway If you will to you know the mind and I and I For me, I do see it is very similar.

I have you know clients who have Experienced ketamine, you know ketamine therapy Hyperbaric chambers, you know where you’re where you’re floating in yeah salt water You know and you’re kind of given this weightlessness and you know and even some in you know and much of these processes and that’s like a Sensory deprivation type.

Yeah It’s yeah, right it’s creating what we what I would call a mindfulness Not so much even the ketamine experience Goes through a mindfulness process, you know where you you know, you’re listening to certain songs You know, you’re focusing on things, you know, and I think that’s So much of what for me hypnosis can be is this ability to shift?

States of mind or you know and it’s a guided focused process, you know I’m not saying that that can’t have Adverse, you know dynamics and you know that being said I really like the way they developed, you know clinical You know hypnosis apart from stages hypnosis.

Yeah So I was gonna bring yeah I mentioned that in the podcast episode They kind of dealing delineated between those two right sure in this idea that stage hope hypnosis is kind of the version of You know hypnosis that we all think of her.

Yeah Somebody’s clocking like a chicken and going across the stage kind of embarrassing Dangling the watch and yeah, and then you see the little Circle thing.

Yeah, and it and for me and here again I appreciate I think this is kind of where I come from I appreciate solid research Yeah, because I don’t think we have anything to be scared of yeah When when we have solid research the research that frustrates me, you know is when we’re Basically doing research, but we’re just ignoring all these other things to kind of promote the idea, you know I Would say even the vaccines, you know We’re a part of that we need to have this out and we need to create this safety You know so we’re gonna push this stuff through and we’re not we weren’t necessarily given credibility so some of these alternative issues That might be I’m not saying they are but you know we we can see there’s some core Relation between this so like you say that’s I’m all in favor of solid research And like you say you brim and labs I seem to you know I appreciate what he’s able to share in the context of the questions and that kind of thing I think you know, yeah, it’s it’s solid stuff from my perspective Yeah, I mean from the yeah the two or whatever.

Yeah, who I you know, it’s like I’m certainly not gonna argue With what those guys are saying you know, they you know, they use more of what are those you like?

labels like Cnpr JPD you know, it’s like and they know what all that stands for and it’s like if they say it out It’s like okay.

I might know one part of that You know and that and that sounds like you know sing a let and all that stuff, you know, yeah Yeah, Andrew Huberman is a professor at NYU or something Stanford, isn’t he sir anyway, the point is he’s a smart guy.

Yeah, and then he has on these you know World renowned scientists to talk about stuff was pretty pretty cool But anyway The re one of the reasons I wanted to chat about it here is because of the maybe more of the theological side of it and in fact There was a message at our church maybe six months ago or something and Our pastor was just making the point about do whatever you need to do to get you know healthy From certain addictions.

He said you know, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was something about Do anything do counseling or hypnotic Hypnotizing or whatever you need to do and I think maybe it was a little tongue-in-cheek.

I don’t really know but Someone asked me about that like what do you think about that?

Yeah, like what is That that doesn’t seem right.

Well, you know, why would that be said from you know the pulpit kind of thing and I was What do you do in circumstances like that?

Who which one people are asking you because I think I run into that myself.

Yeah, you know, and I I’m all I’m kind of it’s like at what point You’re able to express.

I’m not trying to shift the subject, but no it’s you know because I think In our day and age and our you know, it’s like people can’t necessarily approach The pastor every time in every circumstance with you know 13th hundred people in attendance, you know, yeah, and so other people I find myself in that situation where it’s like what do you think about that?

Yeah, and it’s like You know, it’s an honest question.

Yeah, and it’s interesting because like you say I might not always find myself in agreement, but Well, I mean I think about it like what you just shared about the milk, right?

Okay, like out of all the podcast episodes 85 to be exact have been released There’s there’s a good chance.

There’s a lot of stuff in there that isn’t quite accurate, right?

Okay, but but but our goal isn’t necessarily to be a hundred percent accurate in fact We called it how I see it so that we don’t have the accurate.

It’s our disclaimer Our title is our disclaimer.

That’s right exactly.

It’s right in there Joking aside like you know, we do our best, but you know mistakes word slips whatever you want to say, you know And yeah, I remember the one that I keep bringing up about talking about homeschoolers and yeah, whatever the emotional Intelligence yeah I mean, you know Eating those words ever since and that kind of thing with that’s like a perfect example of Something that you know came out one way that didn’t necessarily mean and so I you know That’s that’s one perspective.

Yeah often grant is like well I mean we can’t expect our pastor to be batting a thousand You know, he’s not gonna never say something wrong or slip or whatever Sure, and so that’s kind of number one right exactly and then beyond that it’s about the specific thing so in this case I was like well I totally get his point and I agree with this point which is like Do what you have to do like think like that like for me being involved in CR for a long time It’s not until someone says I’ll do whatever it takes that they’re willing to do whatever it takes I got you.

Yeah.

Yeah And I think that was kind of his point is about being willing sure whatever it takes as to that exact thing about hypnotism I mean, I think that’s a very interesting and interesting question and I had actually just listened to this episode Honey, you know, not not too much long before that.

I heard the same message I didn’t remember hearing that point so to me it didn’t stand out as yeah, you know mind-blowing or whatever but I imagine for someone who as You know, maybe heard about or read about or you know has a particular bent Theologically that it’s wrong for many, you know for whatever reason that would be like doing, you know Let’s stand right out in the message.

Yeah, like I understand that And this person sent me a link to a got questions Dot org which generally I really respect that website.

It’s really cool about tackling I mean, it’s kind of like kind of like what we try and do tackling hard questions polarize your questions from a biblical perspective And so they’re you know asking about hypnosis and they have their answer and it’s very much Hypnosis is wrong for you know one two three four five reasons.

Yep All of which are good reasons, you know, I think sure it’s a solid argument I came away from reading it.

I mean you you briefly mentioned something about Opening our mind to influence right sure.

They waste.

Yes gate Good and I was thinking about some of those points sound exactly if you didn’t know they were talking about hypnotism You could think about them talking about You get like catfishing, you know catfishing right or Someone who’s in the Influence of somebody they shouldn’t be and how you know influential that can be and how they can basically change their brain to say You know weird creepy people like us are trustworthy and everyone else is not you know and kind of some of that stuff that can happen Right and made me think about how and I and of course that You know author of that article wouldn’t argue that those are good situations either I guess I was just saying like the way they described it didn’t sound that different from other ways to be influenced that if you are not Entering it with a wise mind and the desire, you know, yeah in healthy desires.

It can be really problematic sure And I think even even as I you know It’s funny because you bring that up It’s like even as I was talking about research and you know and and smart people, you know the whole It’s definitely the beginning of Romans.

Maybe it’s not Romans one, but you know where it talks about, you know They they gave themselves over basically to intelligence, you know these knowledgeable people and they still did you know they to a Depraved mind if you will you follow me and I’m not yeah, I’m not at that point where I’m saying, you know All all science is is all good all research is all good But I think we do have to be mindful or be aware that there are many things about I think there are many things about our body about our mind body connection that we are really unaware of yeah or have been unaware of and So much, you know research is being done in such a way that there is a greater awareness And I’d still say some of these things you know like mindfulness if you want to take it, you know from a Eastern mysticism type perspective, you know where you know I am emptying myself You know and the you know that kind of thing yeah, I’m not I’m not for that but the the process of mindfulness in being focused and even I would even dare say you know I’m some of What I do in a devotional You know Christ centered devotion is part of mindfulness Yes, my ability to get up at a certain time and have certain routines and certain structures I believe that’s mindfulness for me.

Well you uh, yeah, I feel like that’s a good parallel right this idea So meditation right sure you can go two directions It can go to that Eastern meditation and empty your brain that kind of thing and it can go You know that’s the term we often use in in Christian circles just talk about you know Quiet time whatever it’s a kind of meditation or whatever sure and the difference being you know trying to empty your brain versus trying to focus your brain Yes, and I feel like that is a good correlation to this concept of hypnosis where You know kind of this stage of no sis is trying to reset your brain state so that I can get you to do something I want you to do.

Yep, where clinical hypnosis is this idea to First you start with focus right and it’s kind of similar to what you’re saying about the ketamine Therapy where they kind of set up right this it the well in ketamine therapy.

You’re actually given the the drug Yeah, yeah, which creates a gateway.

Yeah that kind of thing, but yes Yeah, and this is essentially that but without the drug exactly basically you’re trying But but you were describing a setting up of an environment Yep to initiate a certain specific change its therapy It’s a this attempt to reframe your thinking about a particular thing.

Usually it’s trauma right like sure or maybe a strong addiction or phobias Yeah, yeah, and and this is very much in that vein You know according to what my understanding from no no Where there’s this setup?

There’s this focusing of your efforts towards this one thing Yes, and then that brain state, you know, you you get into the state where you’re able to rethink things And I thought that was pretty cool, but again, yeah that correlation seemed to Tie pretty well together the site of meditating for the sake of emptying your brain or meditating for the sake of focusing it Yes similar I think in the hypnosis thing like if you’re if your attempt is just to empty your brain or I don’t know And I’ll be honest in the got questions perspective.

It’s not that I disagreed with anything of that But it definitely and I’m and I think it brings up That that context of hypnosis versus non hypnosis.

Yeah, you know Hypnosis people will be able to have this Connection of if I if I may say so without using the brain parts, you know that there isn’t this conflict This inner brain conflict, you know, and that allows them to be hypnosed Yeah, you know to the to the point of being you know, brought into this state where I’m open to this Gateway and then there’s an influence that’s provided there.

Yeah Yeah, go ahead.

Well, it’s cool Yeah, that’s he he talked pretty much at length about hypnotizability, which is sure which your time out in this idea that you know, some there’s a wide swath of you know, people and how Tizable they are and some are some are very, you know, uh, Hypnotizable and some are not sure you said that just has a lot to do with kind of your brain makeup and how you think about it The kind of you’re saying conflict.

Yeah.

Yeah, the conflict whether you can disassociate You know competing idea, you know, whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah, and um, but yeah, I think that’s pretty interesting.

I think I’d be curious to know Essentially, I feel like a lot of times trauma Can reframe our brain to think a certain way, right?

Like it’s kind of a forcing of neural pathways to be inserted into our brain That’s an unhealthy pattern, but it’s it’s due to this kind of sheer force of the brain for trauma, right?

Yeah, I like to think of it in his style I think of it.

I tend to think of you know, our brain we have these neural pathways Okay, and they’re very similar to what I what I used to call a crick But it’s actually a creek, you know, these these smaller pathways, okay Well when when we experience trauma Okay, it’s like a huge flood comes through and now all those little individual creeks Tributaries are in tributaries that you know, just kind of meandered now There’s this this cutting force that has gone through and in many cases rewired Those neural pathways.

Yeah, so instead of having these individual You know tributaries that can kind of filter, you know certain things out, you know now we have this big river.

Yeah, it’s gone through and now it makes it seem as if Everything is connected to that one thing Yeah, because they don’t have these little parts that can kind of filter out where we went this way We used to go this way then that way, you know now.

It’s all one pathway.

Yeah That’s that’s that’s the analogy that I would typically use.

I like that analogy a lot Yeah, so yeah, and the goal of a lot of therapy is to add nuance back in so that you can And that’s you know cognitive behavioral therapy is about like let’s think through this thing and think about right?

Yeah Yeah, let’s let’s process this river and start to tease out these tributaries a little bit to see if we can say Well, is this thing always in that same river?

It’s not sometimes is not so you can start to separate these strands back out Yeah, theoretically over and that was one of the things they said in this episode too like that’s effective in that cognitive You know the therapy of that sort he they said hypnotism is just a lot faster Yes, essentially the same process just a lot faster, which I thought was interesting But it’s this idea that you can get someone into a state where they’re more able to accept these the suggestions right influence yeah and And they’re yeah, go ahead.

Sorry if the goal of that influence is to you know address to those the specific trauma or whatever it can be really You know according to them and according to how hypnotizable you are it can be very effective in terms of just getting right to the Rooted the issue teasing it out working it out doing it in a safe way sure one of the things they mentioned is that When they prep you for it they give you all the tools to be in control of it You can turn it on you can turn off and then essentially their goal is to make it something reproducible So whenever you need to like you know reframe your brain again because you feel like it’s starting to go back to that river state You could enter that state of hypnotism self, you know whatever hypnotism to be able to kind of read go through these You know the process of whatever it is and Anyway, I thought that was interesting essentially they’re saying like it’s a way to kind of Quickly I guess maybe short circuit the thing the by the normal process.

Yeah sure Which anytime you hear shortcut, you know, that’s that can be a You should be weary of shortcuts for many reasons sure but yeah You thought you know, that’s what that’s what and I and I think you know Even the word therapy for years in general, you know, it’s like no and I think and I think What makes that difference is my viewpoint and granted, you know, I was I shifted I’m not saying, you know, I mean I remember, you know seeing people staged in my personal life You know on a you know from a hypnotic standpoint, you know, I’ve I’ve experienced that seeing that You know, and it’s like and I and I do feel they talked about it in the podcast, too You know, I I think that’s that that’s irresponsible You know in some ways to use that and I think Can you explain that you saw you experience what now in other words?

I’ve I’ve seen Hypnotist you’ve hired hired hypnotist come into a oh, yeah, you’ve been present for the yeah I’ve been present for the experience.

I’ve tell me more Well, it’s like I said, you know, it’s like you can take a grown, you know 50 year old respectable individual and turn them into a laughing stock because every time, you know You say a word they’ll cluck like a chicken was that the perfect like what was the event that that it was like a a conference Okay, you know, it’s part of yeah like a comedian training or It was like the evening entertainment or you know, like your you know You’re two o’clock break or whatever, you know when everybody’s falling asleep.

Okay.

Yeah, you know You bring in you bring in the pino, you know, yeah, you bring in the you know, yeah The entertainment if you will.

Okay, I believe it was actually I believe it was actually like evening entertainment like yeah You know the gala or whatever, you know, and so, you know, they take individuals of course that you know We’re actually You know managers or higher up people and put them on this stage and you know make them look like laughing stocks Which of course from a you know a group Mentality, it’s like yeah, we’re all four things, you know put it to the man type stuff But I it wasn’t and you know, it was in the podcast, you know that they brought up, you know Sometimes, you know in this process of staging and entertainment of course, you know We’re we’re putting people in this state, but we’re not always mindful of bringing them out and I thought you know, that’s I’ll be honest.

There was a lot of parallels in my perspective with what I do, you know And how and how being a being responsible for people’s time Taking them into a state because I believe therapy and hypnosis and other things Does come back to the responsibility of the person to put safeguards in place it has to be safe Yes, because if it’s not safe, nothing’s gonna change that kind of thing.

Yeah, I like what you’re saying about time and responsible for this essentially the session because I think what you’re Getting at is this idea that you can you could work them all up and get them all riled up right to the end of the session And that’s what they’re leaving you so their brain is But you know their state has been changed to be in this very irritable state and unwilling to You know, maybe just come be confront.

Yeah, whatever Okay, kind of leaving in and and and not great state and you see it as your responsibility to kind of bring them into a place And then bring them back to yeah, it makes a lot of sense, which it also makes a lot of sense What you know as far as what they’re saying about?

Short circuiting some of that process to be able.

Okay, let’s get right back to you know The work and then get right back out of it, you know And I think that’s interesting and I think that’s where you know, they mentioned well you mentioned it as far as you know We all have different schemas, you know as far as what?

One word may mean to you is far different than what it made money For example, yeah, you know, what does that meet when I say the word money alone?

What does that say to you, you know versus what it means to me and likely we’re gonna view that very differently Well, they they mentioned the you know, the one lady who had been part of a stage dynamic Yeah, and you know, she was supposed to hold a little bird Yeah, you know and she saw herself as a as a trophy wife who was the bird in the gilded cage And you know and that that state was never recognized and she wasn’t transitioned out and that’s irresponsible in my part You know to be able to take someone to that state and then you know not be able to You know reprocess that state in such a way that says okay, we’re coming back because I believe Yeah, that’s a that’s a a lot of what therapy is from my perspective is this exposure Yes, not not I’m not an exposure therapist But we’re able to talk about things it has to be a safe environment for me to go into this mental state of feeling safe enough to talk about that traumatic experience And I think what I think what hypnotism does in this clinical sense of hypnotism is It is able to get me into that state quicker and I think there again I think we have multiple not multiple, but I think we have more Gateways as I refer to them then just you know the cognitive behavioral thinking Pathway, you know, I think there is a mindfulness type dynamic You know and I also you know like EMD are and and these other and chemically induced, you know gateways I’m not it’s it’s funny because and I Go clear back, you know not clear back.

I’m not but Just in the research and this is this is what makes it interesting is I believe this is how complex we are that Some things work for some people that won’t work for other people.

Yeah, that’s all there is to it.

Yeah, and you know I’m not sure I’ve mentioned it in here on the podcast, but there’s a great book Vanderkalke is his last name No region sounding kind of guy, but the body keeps the score And he’s probably done the most research Compared to or at least written so much on the whole trauma experience and You know he goes through this process and this is kind of what connects it to hypnosis for me He goes through and at the end of this book He goes through all of the different dynamics that have been used to treat trauma Because there just really isn’t one cookie cutter size thing to be able to deal with trauma And yes, you know yoga works for some people Mindfulness works for talk therapy works for some people, you know, but ultimately I think at the basis of all of it is this ability to recognize that I’m not just a a hand I’m not just a body full of triggers.

Yeah, you follow me.

I’m not I’m not re I don’t have to Exactly.

I don’t have to react to everything and I’m able to learn And I would say this for even from a scriptural standpoint There would be I suppose you could you could shift it like most things you can shift them into a Scriptural perspective or non-biblical perspective, but from my perspective.

I don’t have an issue I’ve won the fruits of the spirit self control You follow me in in that dynamic.

I’m learning that When I experience that and then we see that with phobias phobias would be a good example You know, I see a snake.

Well, is it healthy for me to have a reaction to a snake?

Yes, probably so But yeah, you know now and if I’ve been bitten by a dog You know, I’m gonna but is that to say all dogs are mean and nasty?

You know and they’re gonna bite me in the face no So, you know that ability to die have and I think that’s where as they were talking about the clinical hypnosis It’s able to take me to that point where I’m shifting my thoughts about that Conflict that the dog represents pain and you know hospitalization for me.

Yeah all dogs represent that That creates a conflict and then being able to kind of have that exposure that says okay, you know Is every experience been this way and how would you interact?

You know, is this the way you interact with everything that has hurt you?

You know that it’s like no You know, I’ve been hurt by other people or you know, I’ve been hurt by you know sticks, but yeah I still you know stones and yeah Yeah, and this is idea I Really like kind of what they’re saying they they chat a little bit at one point about how You know, we try to avoid pain and we try to avoid any kind of You know stress sure right and they’re saying well stress is part of life And we have to learn how to deal with strife not avoid it because you you just can’t you can’t avoid stress So yeah, the more work you do at canceling everybody and and click creating a clean room of stress or whatever Yeah, the more stressed you’ll be like the more exactly, you know that every little thing will be that much more stressful Yeah, and so there they use the term or they reference a term called stress inoculation Yeah, which is done in some studies with some chimps this idea of taking them away from their mother for a bit of time A little bit a day would actually make them two hours a day.

I would actually make them more resilient to stressors in the future in the future.

Yeah, which just tolerance is basically yeah, yeah but I Like what they’re saying they’re basically saying if you want to heal trauma There’s no way to heal it without going to it.

Yeah without you know going back to that stressor and reexamining it and and that’s kind of The point of what you’re saying kind of the point of what they’re saying is like no matter what that’s what you got it Do sure now some people can do it through ketamine therapy some people, you know, even you heard a psilocybin Mushrooms like I think like that’s a I read this article about vets who come back in our you know PTSD depression, you know anger episodes that kind of thing and there’s a clinic I think in Mexico or something obviously it’s kind of shady the shady thing, right?

Yup crossing the border.

Yeah, exactly because it’s not legal here You know he said that the way they were doing it where they would go and they would do this psilocybin therapy And come back and you know be able to live a normal life that kind of thing There’s that there’s hypnosis again, but the goal of all of these things if done in a therapeutic You know a session is this attempt to take you right back to that trauma and start to peel apart these tributaries again, right?

So you’re in the room.

What was it like?

You know and describing the situation But if you’re in this the whole thing with again what I understand about hypnosis is alright We’re gonna do this thing here’s here’s how you’re in control Like you’re gonna look at it You’re gonna enter the state and you’re gonna look at the screen on your left the screen on your left is gonna be the Trauma situation the screen on your right is gonna be some buttons that you can control it You know and so when you’re you know when you reach a state where you’re not comfortable You just hit this button to stop and then we’ll pop back out and we’ll be in a safe place or whatever and Just the ability to project in your mind onto screens Just the ability to say it’s not a real thing It’s this thing that’s replaying in front of me that I can control Sure allows you to go back into that memory and kind of rewind fast forward pause You know and work through that and say now when this happened what what was the situation?

What mean they use this one example of this lady who had been assaulted and She kind of came away from it as she zoomed into the situation and kind of relived it going wow It could have been way worse like he could have murdered me And you know the takeaway was what did you find about that?

You know I think actually he didn’t expect me to fight like I think I was stronger than he thought it was and I ended up being able to get Out of that situation and so the result of this therapy was to go back and go You know you’re not as vulnerable as it made you feel like you were actually very strong in that situation and managed to escape or whatever it was And that allowed her to start reframing some of those insecurities to say you know I’m pretty strong and you know, I don’t know.

It’s kind of interesting situation that they set up but I like this idea of creating the safe Construct to then go into the thing sure because from my understanding and from our conversation Just you know there’s no other way to deal with drama but to deal with it like to go to it and work through it Tees it apart is that no, it’s and it’s interesting because I think and I’m Talking at times, you know as we’re talking I’m thinking you know I use the terminology gateways and so on so forth, but you know, I would dare say You know sex and sexuality, you know or basically our God given design To be able to have sex is another way another gateway of influence if you will and I think you know So often it is when it’s used out of context That you know, it becomes damaging.

Yeah, but in God’s design for it.

It’s very, you know comforting It’s very, you know, it builds relationship bonding.

Yes.

There’s a design for it Yeah, and I think sometimes you know, that’s that’s what you know in that process and Think it when you when we even think of the word charisma or someone who’s charismatic You know, we can think of you know, Jim Jones or somebody like that who or Dave Krasch who you know led many people away You know and you know to an in an occult Type dynamic, you know, cuz that I think that would be one thing that most cult leaders would have You know, but you can take someone else who like like Jimmy Evans or somebody who just has a passion For marriage or somebody like that and and leads multiple people in a in a in a godly You know biblical direction doesn’t have to maintain that following for a false sense of pride But yet they have a following, you know, people have a following who’s the who oh oh I’m Olstein, you know, he has a following, you know, and I think you know, so we have to be careful from my perspective About saying oh that’s that that’s that’s of the occult You know charisma.

That’s all, you know, people who are charismatic just lead people astray.

Oh Not always, you know, we all we all know and you well your your mentor was a very charismatic You know as you described key in that process, you know, someone who could lead people granted Maybe he was he didn’t deal with his own pride issues of self But yet it’s not that what he did didn’t have an impact for the kingdom either Yeah, you know, and I think that’s where I come from kind of with this You know, it’s it’s the brick or it’s the money thing, you know We can want to shift quickly to you know, money’s the root of all evil Well, no, the love of money is the root of all evil You know and a brick can be used to be pitched through a window, but yet it can also build, you know, up Yeah schools and educational facilities, you know, that kind of thing It’s and that’s how I see so much of what you know Part of what God has given us in these different gateways to be able to shift that influence in some ways Yeah, and it’s and here again I’m just thinking of it as I was going through that it’s it’s not about me in this process But I would dare say I have my you know, mindfulness practices like though the one that came to mind for me is There’s no no secret.

I’ll take naps sometimes, you know And in my office in the process of a day if I have a break or something And it’s like I’ve been able to go to sleep, you know three times in seven minutes before Just because I can go to sleep that quickly and you know a dream might wake me up or something But part of my routine is I’ll have a routine.

I’ll I lay down in a certain way I you know and and then I start counting You know and that that just basically gives me a single-minded focus I’m not saying well, I got this client.

What if my alarm doesn’t go off?

What if this that would have would have would have what all I’m doing is counting and by the time I’m to 10 I’m typically asleep You know because I’m not which in that divided very similar to hypnosis In a lot of cases.

Yes, and like EMDR You know, I movement desensitization and reprocessing whoo All right Yeah, well like you say it’s a I sometimes get restructuring but it’s reprocessing And basically, you know, that’s that’s another gateway if you will and I think you know, they mentioned it in there But I think it’s basically my ability to move my eyes back and forth in such a way and um, you know, it was it was Notice by a lady who was walking through a park, you know as the founder of that that process And you know, it’s like and we have these abilities sometimes, you know when we tend to look up to the left You know, it kind of signifies Part of our design.

There’s a purpose for that.

There’s like a conscious You know, I’m I’m tapping into myself conscious when I’m looking up either to the right or to the left I don’t have that part down.

I’ll be honest with you, but Our eyes do certain things, you know when we’re processing You know and it’s and it’s you know, it’s so that’s another if I if I may say, you know I’m using the term loosely a little bit this morning, but another gateway That we have to be able to be open to these processes of influence and Being able to minimize pain.

Yeah, that was that that lady recognized that You know as she moved her eyes in a specific way You know and it had and it had uh as i’m recalling a little more It had something to do with the way the light was coming through the trees So if you think about it some people um, especially um Seizures people who are given to seizures a strobing Effect can bring on seizures for people.

Yeah, you follow me and that’s what it was for her It was like a sunset and she passing through trees In this process and she recognized she was moving her eyes in a certain way And she suddenly recognized that she what was once a painful thought or memory was Had lost its significance So, you know, it’s like and from my perspective That’s not you know, that’s not seancing.

That’s not trans and you know trans and dental meditation, you know, I mean It’s just that was an experience and it created an awareness And she looked to develop that in a way that helped other people find that relief From those painful memories as well.

Yeah, and so granted.

Yeah And you know the brick analogy is great, right?

Every tool can be used to hurt or to sure you know harm or to to help in You know tear down build up.

Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things I really enjoyed about this particular podcast Episode was hearing this dr.

Spiegel kind of talking about how His life’s work has been about trying to figure out the best way to help people and he said this seems to be the best way And I really enjoy seeing this tool be used to help people and Um, so that kind of helped uh reframe the brick a little bit for me, right to kind of hear that perspective and Oh, that tool can be used in that way and and it’s been effective in helping to build the house, right?

Like um So, you know, I think well, we’re definitely gonna We’ll link to these different resources.

Yeah.

Yeah, by all means.

Yeah, the podcast episode, you know, um, yeah, and I would Encourage any of you, you know listeners like read this stuff.

Yeah listen to stuff make your own, you know kind of decisions and yep and thoughts on it, but um Just a very it was very interesting to me to think about this and all of this stuff really is anything any you mentioned gateway, right?

Like yeah Any gateway to me is fascinating.

I got you this idea where You’re telling me I can get kind of like short circuit this process to get to this Brain change and the thing is I know brain change is possible and I know that there are Long pathways to get to that sure and that’s celebrate recovery, you know, like If you’re involved in a program like that for years and years you your brain will change for the better You know when you’re involved or if you have a good, you know Quality group of friends and you meet regularly or you have a mastermind Yeah, I heard that term like a business mastermind where you meet with other people in a similar business set, you know Sure and it’s all at this goal to hold each other accountable to learn and grow from each other Anything like that is this attempt to um, you know reframe your brain pathways to be more effective, you know We can even look at that as the early church model Coming to coming together small groups coming together, you know with a positive word, you know Word of encouragement a word from the you know or a song, you know that kind of thing church in general, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that’s the hope, you know And as as I was thinking about, you know as you were mentioning cr, you know from my perspective cr is a more complex Dynamic you follow me because you have the 12 steps, you know, you have this gatherer control Yeah, they offer people tools To be able to implement in such a way on a on a complex dynamic, you know, whether it’s hurts habits or hang ups But I think about it so often and I um, I tend to think about things somewhat in a fundamental way And um the breathing was another one that came to mind, you know, because breathing exercises, yeah For me, that’s a fundamental You know to where when I speak because that’s a god-given You know auto automatic nervous system type thing to be able to say once that I’m I’m floating down that river again And I’m feeling all these things from a somatic, you know My body is feeling these things at a certain level And it’s like I can still engage my prefrontal cortex in such a way that says okay I’m feeling this but it doesn’t have to be the same Yeah, as it was and I can and I can start, you know that diaphragmatic breathing That that takes back the control of my body, you know from my um prefrontal cortex, uh, uh Primary primary function, you know, I’m taking um Um bypassing my flight or fight mechanisms In such a way that i’m re-engaging my body I’m able to take that because like I say my uh primary function is strong because it’s designed to keep me alive But it’s not real smart, right?

So fireworks and gunfire are very similar Yeah, so I have to engage my prefrontal cortex to be able to decipher that difference Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and so when i’m able to breathe i’m able to keep that function online That says okay, you know, this is fourth of july.

This is in afghanistan again Yeah, you follow me and I think that’s and that’s and I think that’s part of that hypnosis when I can go to that state Um, and I think it like you’re saying it bypasses in such a way that I can get that influence quicker and yeah, I can still maintain a certain level of self control You know not that we’re all in control You know what I mean?

Yeah, because control can have a negative context just like any other word if it if it goes too far If I have to think that i’m god and I maintain ultimate control Then i’m going to rip the reins away and he’s around.

Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, no, yeah, that’s yeah, it’s really all Good stuff that it makes me think of something that’s been really front of mine and actually that’s a that’s a pun to for about what i’m about to say but like i’ve been talking about this recently a lot specifically um In regards to some conversations with some friends I have um, you know, I work with sexual addiction a lot, right and that’s something in my background So I like I I work with others to try and work through that and there’s this one concept that we that we call bouncing eyes Okay, it’s this idea that um, you know instead of keeps fixating on a woman as she walks the door Maybe she’s you know scantily clad or whatever instead of fixating on that like bounce, you know, I notice I move on right?

Um, but the big kind of the premise behind that from my perspective is bringing something from the subconscious up into the consciousness So it’s kind of taking it from the primary function of oo sex need it, you know into this front this Frontal cortex area where I go.

Yeah, but that’s that’s that’s a woman.

I respect her I don’t you know, that’s not she’s not mind to have She’s not a possession.

Yeah, exactly.

She’s not even an object.

She’s a human being.

She has a She has parents.

She might have kid, you know, like just bringing it up into the the consciousness Instead of leaving it and I feel like so much of addiction and problematic behavior is because it’s left in the subconscious So a lot of work of recovery is like let’s let’s bump it up into the consciousness So let’s be focused on this thing instead of not thinking about this thing and that’s why there’s so much uh repetitive behavior and recovery and sure, you know Consistent environments consistent people places things that you do is it’s to keep this thing up in the In the frontal cortex instead of letting it fall back to primary functions of like that thing solves my needs I need more, you know And I don’t know for some reason that’s come up in conversations like several times in that past couple weeks that made me think of that but this idea of like Separating it, you know bring it up out of the self-con subconscious to sure to actually operate on it Yep to be able to think about it roll it around in your hand like i’m holding my hands in front of me Right?

This is the idea in front of me.

I can look at it.

I can turn it.

I can move it I can do what I need to do with it.

Yep instead of just letting it control me subconsciously Um, and I feel like that’s a lot of what these gateways allow you to do Is like take this thing from that primary side of just Flight or flight.

Yeah, sure conscious and bring it up into the consciousness where you can Hold it in your hand roll it around look at it.

Um in some ways in a short-circuited fashion where You know holding that thing in your hand might You might be like I can’t do that.

It’s gonna burn my hands or whatever It’s like this like sphere or you can kind of jump into that in a you know Expedited form whether it’s through a chemical or hypnosis or whatever to where you now you’re able to operate with it safely Yeah, and I think it’s interesting because I’ll what you’re talking about in the subconscious You know, I’ll typically identify those as files In other words, we have a multitude of files in our subconscious that we typically when someone asks us a question or we’re posed with a conflict Will we typically well it’s around eight seconds average is about eight seconds most decisions We have about seven to ten seconds to be able to formulaize a decision And so often our tendency is to not even bring it so much to the to the conscious We leave it in the we we just make that decision based on those prior files of Family sex, you know, whatever, you know We need to combine to pull it out to those files to be able to make that decision And it’s just funny because you know that when you think about eight seconds Eight seconds can be a long time if you’re right in a bowl You know, but it can be an instant if you’re trying to you know if you’re just following a habit You know Yeah, so I like that what you’re saying.

It’s the upper limit, right?

So probably most things you we pull from the cash and we move on and oh, yeah, that’s what i’m saying But we have we still have seven to ten seconds give or take, you know, eight seconds to make a different decision In that process when we have that to in order to bring it from the subconscious to the conscious We still have like like on tv we have that eight second delay or whatever To be able to say no, i’m not going to do that And that’s just a conscious decision and being able to make that In such a way that gives me a level of self control Can make all the difference so if I reframe what you’re saying or trying Understand a little bit more essentially if I struggle with the compulsive behavior Maybe one one particular tool to use is say whenever you have a compulsion to do that thing Think about it for eight seconds or ten Over ten just before I do that seconds and if you still got to have that cookie Well, you know, whatever but if you can every single time you have a compulsion you give it that ten second Focus thought right do I need it?

Can I wait can I wait?

You know 20 minutes, you know go through the ten seconds a long time to think about all the things And at the end of being like no, I gotta have it Help yourself, but if you can get you know if if in the course of that here I feel like that’s a good tool is that kind of yeah?

No doubt and then I think too, you know in this process not getting frustrated with ourselves Yeah, you know, I think you know, well, I shouldn’t have done that You know that I’m terrible.

I should you know that thought came to my mind here again.

I’m Yeah, we need to do an episode on shame Yeah, I think we have always seems like we have Sometimes it’s 85 85th episode this week.

So At this point you got it.

You got to understand it’s hard to remember But at the same time I’m thinking about it in that context of you know How things come to my mind and I have the ability to process it I have to have the ability to take my thoughts captive Self-control those kind of things when I’m able to engage that and that’s where um In some ways I don’t have an issue, you know with a physical exercise of like yoga Yeah Because I think it it’s another form of being able to exercise a level of self-control That what I wasn’t able to do I didn’t have this flexibility before You know now I’ve basically worked on it and now I have this ability and that’s just a From my perspective a healthy form of self-control Yeah, and when I can exercise that then I’m able to apply that to other areas of my life as well.

Yeah, it’s it’s like learning how to Yeah, it’s like a safe way to learn how to reprogram right?

Yeah, because I’m I’m being able to recognize that even though in that Circumstance like when you mentioned the woman, you know who is you know experienced sexual abuse that kind of thing, you know It’s a matter of that relearning You know that I may not have had control in that situation Full control I didn’t may not have had a hundred percent.

Yeah, but I had certain controls Yeah, and I’m able to see that better Yeah, and I’m able to recognize that in life I still have certain controls and I’m working to you know increase those controls Yeah, that are available to me Yeah, and we just recently had an episode on the serenity prayer, right?

Yeah and that’s a You know while you’re talking about control the other half of this equation is where we don’t and learning the difference And I feel like that’s where we get stuck because it is important to know when you don’t have control Yep, right and it’s and it’s and there’s something to be said for accepting that as well.

Yes Yes, yeah, so we don’t have to re-tease the serenity prayer, but I do think that’s a As much as we talk about needing to learn control over those behaviors It’s also important to understand what you don’t have control over you don’t have control over someone else’s behavior for instance and so You know that’s where codependence needs some reprogramming to be able to say no I can and you know, I can’t make that person do what I want to make them do Right no matter what my behavior is even if I get them to do what I’m trying to make them do It’s going to be based on my efforts not their own, you know, and so like yeah Understand the difference between what I have control over what I don’t is is a pretty important skill to have But yeah, and as I was thinking about what you were saying too, I think you know that that scripture about You know All everything’s permissible You’re playing my guitar by turning your chair and I was like where did that tell him come from?

Now I know you’ll hear that but if you do you’ll understand yeah, but in that process of you know everything acceptable How’s that going?

Yeah, everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial Yeah, and I and I think about that I I would extend that to all of our listeners who may disagree on the topic of hypnosis If it’s not Something, you know, I’m not saying everybody needs to do it by any means But you know if it’s something that you feel is wrong You know That’s okay.

Yeah, and for you it is wrong at that point.

Yeah, you know, and uh, you know I think that’s that’s part of how I see it and being able to recognize okay As I learn though that there are differences between you know, what I’ve experienced or What I think I think you know, there’s something to be said for that awareness that says, okay, yeah Um, um this this has less conflict in my mind not that i’m accepting all things But I’m willing to filter.

Yeah in such a way that says, okay, god I can talk with you about this subject and you know Anything that I can talk with god about is healthy from my perspective.

You know, right that awareness There’s no subject off limits with him.

Yeah, which is very Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

Yeah, if there is something that I can’t talk with god about it’s probably not beneficial Right You James for some deans is remembered is send to know what you ought to do and then not to do it And advice versus to to know you shouldn’t do something and then to do it So I think that applies here in the sense like yeah Yeah, we’re not encouraging anyone to do something that they don’t believe is right But it’s definitely an opportunity to kind of think about these things from a um Maybe a more healthy perspective instead of the traditional stage version To be able to think about it from a Yeah, potentially offering help to people who need help.

Yeah Nope, that’s uh, that’s uh, well, I guess what we desire to do That’s right Is offer the ability to offer help in such a way that says hey This is this is something we’re aware of and we might as well talk about it because it can seem to be polarizing at times Yeah, because that’s how we see it.

That’s how we see it