Mark:

The mic I can talk. I don’t know whether I can talk out of the mic, but I suppose if I move my head all the way over here, this is out of the mic, and then this is in the mic.

Justin:

So yeah. It’s a good way to describe. Glad we got that clarified.

Mark:

Just in case. No pun intended. Uh

Justin:

’cause my name is Justin.

Mark:

That’s right.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. You’re feeling a little stiff this morning.

Justin:

I am, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, you got a slip in the

Justin:

G9 disc or something. Oh yeah.

Mark:

Looks like you’re doing a shoulder twerk over there or something, you know, you’re trying to work it out.

Justin:

I was like, how do you how do you stretch that one?

Mark:

You need those cross over the arms and pick yourself up by your elbows if that would happen.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Stop making me think about it. Uh how are you, Mark?

Mark:

I am well.

Justin:

No uh vertebrates bothering you this morning. Nah. That’s good.

Mark:

I didn’t get my stretching out the done this morning, but typically I get my stretching out I did not. Yeah.

Justin:

That’s because I gave you homework.

Mark:

Yeah, you gave me homework and I was prepping. I didn’t get my stretches in this morning. That’s okay. I am good.

Justin:

Did you have your quiet time, kombucha?

Mark:

I did. I did. I had my quiet time. Like say That was that was 3 30, so I just had to make time for the other the the prep, so you know. But I was I was up. I was ready to go, so yeah. Little quiet time gebucha. The dogs just kinda laid at my feet and said, Hey, this is a little early. We’re uh we’re glad to eat, but now we’re just gonna lay down and finish the rest of our sleeping. So

Justin:

that’s nuts.

Mark:

But it’s good. It’s good. If I would have done it at 9 30 last night when I received the text, it wouldn’t have been any would have been non-beneficial.

Justin:

Yep, I hear that.

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Mark:

So yeah, but it’s good. It’s good to see ya.

Justin:

Speaking of quiet time kombucha, you got me uh on a Yeah, how’s that going? Well, I think it’s going all right.

Mark:

Yeah? You got a Kabucha, you got a SCOBY growing

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah. Then you’re good.

Justin:

It’s it’s doing its thing. Um it’s a little bit hard to keep it at the temperature they’re saying, you know, seventy-four to eighty or whatever.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s like, well, it just got cool out, so

Mark:

Yeah. No, I hear you. I ‘m not sure. Is that working?

Justin:

It’s working. Good. It’s it kicks off on its own. Oh

Mark:

like I am. So it can regulate it at a temperature.

Justin:

Yeah. Well no, it doesn’t ever come back on.

Mark:

Oh, it doesn’t like cycle on or off. Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

So it’s kind of one of those Anyway.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Well

Mark:

good for you.

Justin:

I’m looking forward to the reward.

Mark:

It’s what uh we desire to offer is new learning.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Oh, and speaking of new learning, I made a mistake the other day, other the other well, probably more than one, but in the podcast I was uh Chris brought to my attention, I was using the term whole milk in place of raw milk.

Justin:

Oh.

Mark:

So for anybody, you know, that was confused by that, uh basically whole milk just means all of the fat is in it. It’s typically four percent. But raw milk is non pasteurized.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So all of the bacteria and the enzymes that I believe are designed in it are available to our digestive system. And when we pasteurize it we take out some of the good bugs with the

Justin:

with the price.

Mark:

You know, term not good bugs. You know, it’s like The balance is gone at that point. So like say I’ve uh that was my bad ’cause I was using whole milk in place of raw milk in the podcast.

Justin:

Yeah, and there was what we were talking about, you were saying that Raw you were saying Holman, but raw milk has a certain benefit or

Mark:

raw milk has the actually the because we’re talking about uh so much lactose intolerance uh you know today in our in our food chain and that kind of thing and what happens is many of the enzymes that are in raw milk are killed in the pasteurization process. So many people who would consider themselves lactose intolerant can actually drink raw milk without the side effects of of of milk and that kind of because the the digestion of the fat particles and so forth. So Yeah, that was a bad move on my part, but like say

Justin:

That’s all right. Should we talk about pasteurization?

Mark:

Not this morning. But yeah.

Justin:

I don’t uh That I guess apparently that can be a polarizing topic.

Mark:

Yeah, we’re gonna find out. That’s my whole goal is to find out.

Justin:

That’s right, that’s right.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Oh. But that’s actually not what we’re gonna have about this morning, right?

Mark:

No, it’s not.

Justin:

That’s not what you got up to do your homework for

Mark:

That’s not. That’s not But I did appreciate the opportunity to do the homework. It was fun.

Justin:

Yeah. It was fun. It’s an interesting topic. So it’s about hypnotism. We’re gonna talk a little bit about that. Yeah. And uh depending on who you are, what you’ve heard about or whatever, it might be a very you might be on a polar side of whether you think it’s voodoo and evil or you think it’s a viable thing or or whatever, you know, so we’re we’re gonna talk a little bit about that. Um I first um heard a podcast on Huberman Labs, which I really like that podcast. He he talks a lot a lot about kind of some cutting edge science and stuff like that. Um And I think we referenced him before. I think more like when we talk about neuropathways.

Mark:

Neuroplasticity and neuropathways. Yep. Yeah. Yep.

Justin:

Um and so this is, you know, kind of falls in a similar groove in terms of changing your brain.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um But yeah, he he he he yeah. It’s a it’s a good podcast, um, generally. Um, I feel like it’s uh it’s a solid one. Yeah. Um but yeah, I I listened to one where he talked about hypnotism with a a doctor who that’s been his focus his whole life and in fact his Father was also f it that was his primary focus and was kinda cool. Doctor Spiegel Spiegel

Mark:

psychoanalysts Basically with the combination of hypnotism in that process. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Even even that uh psychoanalyst can have kind of its own connotation. You kind of can go to the Freudian side of things, you know, and you think from a, you know, a therapy standpoint. You know, so it’s just it’s just interesting to think about, you know, as as as the two come together. For me personally, is because I think, you know, we can have all of their our different views. And I think that’s a that’s a good part of the hypnotism, is basically, you know, we tend to look at things on a on a continuum. And one side might be uh one might we you know, somebody that looks at, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy or something, you know, CBT versus, you know, psychoanalysis type stuff, you know. It’s it’s gonna it’s gonna have a differing viewpoint to certain people based on that aspect of vulnerability and control and those kind of things that tend to create polarizing Topics.

Justin:

So yours I mean, I think you’re speaking from like uh we’re all in on this and understand what it’s saying. So I’ll just g I’m gonna tease it out a little bit, but explain to me because yeah, it sounds like you’re saying uh CBT cognitive behavioral therapy is one end of p uh potentially some sort of continuum where psychoanalysis maybe is that what you’re saying?

Mark:

In other words In other words, when we think of psychoanalysis, we tend to think of Freudian and all of his, you know, i if you will, his flawed research based on, you know over focusing on sexualization, you know, that kind of thing, you know, that I I believe they’re what he found you know, m in many cases, you know, these complexes, if you will. I think some of that is real in our in our human experience, but the foundation that it’s all about being a sexual being isn’t necessarily, you know, original. And and that’s not and that that’s That’s not to give psychoanalysis a bad rap in that process. It’s just that individual.

Justin:

And it’s also probably Correct me if I’m wrong, fair to say that that’s just one focus of psychoanalysis. Exactly.

Mark:

Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

What are some other focuses?

Mark:

Well when you think of like CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, we’re basically, you know, focusing on how I think. you know, in that process of being able to recognize well, quite often like you and I will talk about the always and the nevers.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that that process of the the flexibility of my thinking tends to help me recognize whether whether I have the ability to be fluid in a changing environment or whether I’m gonna maintain a

Justin:

You’re tied to your script.

Mark:

Yeah. Uh an unhealthy rigidity, if you will. I think, you know rigidity can be mislabeled as well. I think, you know, there’s something to be said for, you know, I think we need to have some flexibility in life. Not that not s and, you know, we’ve talked about that with open mindedness. You know, and And hypnosis for me is is a is a similar dynamic. Um granted, uh for me personally, it’s I see it as another another gateway, um, if you will, to, you know, the mind. And I and I For me, I I do see it as very similar. I have, you know, clients who have uh experienced ketamine, you know, ketamine therapy. Um uh hyperbaric chambers, you know, where you’re where you’re floating in salt water, you know, and you’re kind of given this weightlessness and You know, and even some in you know and much of these processes

Justin:

And that’s like a a sensory deprivation type

Mark:

process

Justin:

Yeah. Right.

Mark:

It’s creating what we’d what I would call a mindfulness, not so much even the ketamine experience. Um goes through a mindfulness process, you know, where you you know, you’re listening to certain songs You know, you’re focusing on things, you know, and I think that’s so much of what for me hypnosis can be is this ability to shift. uh states of mind or you know and it and it’s a guided focused process. You know I’m not saying that that can’t have adverse, you know, dynamics. And, you know, that being said, I really like the way they developed, you know, clinical you know, hypnosis apart from stage hy hypnosis.

Justin:

So I was gonna bring yeah, mention that in the podcast episode. They kind of deline delineated between those two, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

In this idea that stage ho hypnosis is kind of The the version of you know hypnosis that we all think of or you know as kind of

Mark:

where somebody’s clucking like a chicken and going across the stage kind of embarrassing themselves.

Justin:

The circle thing.

Mark:

Yeah. And it and it and for me and and here again I I appreciate I think this is kind of where I’m com where I come from. I appreciate solid research.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I don’t think we have anything to be scared of.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

When when we have solid research. The research that frustrates me you know, is when we’re basically doing research, but we’re just ignoring all these other things to kind of promote the idea, you know, um I would say even the uh vaccines, you know, were a part of that. We need to have this out and we need to create this safety you know, so we’re gonna push this stuff through. And we’re not we weren’t necessarily given credibility to some of these alternative issues that might be I’m not saying they are, but you know, we we can see there’s some correlation between this. So like you say, that’s I’m a all in favor of solid research and and like you say, Uberman Labs, I seem to you know, I I appreciate what he’s able to share in the context of the questions and that kind of thing. I think, you know, yeah. It’s it’s solid stuff. From my perspective.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean from the yeah, the two or whatever. Yeah, who wan

Mark:

you know, it’s like I’m I’m certainly not gonna argue with what those guys are saying. You know, they they you know, they use more uh what are those like uh labels like C N B R G A P D D you know and it’s like and they know what all that stands for and it’s like If they say it out or it’s like, okay, I might know one part of that, you know, and that m that sounds like, you know, singlet and all that stuff, you know. Yeah

Justin:

Yeah, Andrew Huberman is a professor at NYU or or something. I don’t remember

Mark:

Stanford, isn’t he?

Justin:

Sir Stanford. Uh anyway, the point is he’s he’s a smart guy. Yeah. And then he has on these, you know. pr world renowned scientists to talk about stuff is pretty pretty cool. Um but anyway, uh the re one of the reasons I wanted to chat about it here is just because of the maybe more of the theological side of it and um in fact um there was a message uh at our church maybe six months ago or something And uh our pastor was m just making the point about do whatever you need to do to get, you know, healthy from certain addictions. He said if you you know, I c I can’t remember exactly what he said, but it was something about um do anything. Do counseling or hypnoti hypnotizing or whatever you need to do. And I think maybe it was a little tongue in cheek. I don’t really know, but um um someone asked me about that. Like w what do you think about that? Yeah, like what is

Mark:

What do you do in circumstances like that?

Justin:

Who wh whi which what?

Mark:

When people are asking you, because I think I run into that myself.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know? And I and I’m I’m all I’m I’m kinda it’s like at what point you’re able to express. I’m not trying to shift the subject, but it you know, because I think in our day and age in our you know, it’s like people can’t necessarily approach the pastor every time in every circumstance with you know thirteen hundred people in attendance, you know.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And so other people I find myself in that situation where it’s like, what do you think about that? Yeah. And it’s like You know, it’s an honest question.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it’s interesting because like you say, I might not always find myself in agreement. But

Justin:

Well I mean I think about it like what you just shared about the milk, right? Like out of all the podcast episodes, uh eighty five to be exact have been released. Like there’s there’s a good chance there’s a lot of stuff in there that isn’t quite accurate, right? Okay. But the but but our goal isn’t necessarily to be a hundred percent accurate. In fact we called it how I see it so that we don’t have to be accurate.

Mark:

That’s our disclaimer. Our title is our disclaimer.

Justin:

That’s right, exactly. It’s right in there. Um Joking aside, like, you know, we do our best, but you know , big mistakes, word slips, whatever you want to say, you know. And I ‘m I remember the one that I keep bringing up about talking about homeschoolers and whatever that emotional is what was it? Intelligence. Intelligence, yeah. Like how I I’ve been you know uh eating those words ever since and that kind of thing. But that’s like a perfect example of Something that, you know, came out one way that didn’t necessarily mean and um so I you know, that’s that’s one perspective fell off in Grant is like, well, I mean We can’t expect our pastor to be batting a thousand you know, like he’s not gonna never say something wrong or slip or whatever. Sure. And so that’s kind of number one, right? Exactly. And then beyond that it’s about the specific thing. So in this case I I was like, well, I totally get his point and I agree with this point, which is like do what you have to do. Like think like that y like for me being involved in CR for a long time It’s not until someone says I’ll do whatever it takes that they’re willing to do whatever it takes. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um and I think that was kind of his point is about being willing to do whatever it takes. As to that exact thing about hypnotism, I mean I think that’s a very interesting and interesting question and I had ac uh actually just listened to this episode

Mark:

Honey

Justin:

you know, n not not too much long before that I heard the same message. I didn’t remember hearing that point. So to me it didn’t stand out as like, you know, mind blowing or whatever. But I I I imagine for someone who has um you know, maybe heard about or read about or, you know, has a particular bent uh theologically that it’s wrong for many you know, for whatever reason. That would be like dwing, you know, it’d stand right out in the message. Um I understand that. Um and this person sent me a link to uh got questions dot org which generally I I really respect that website. It’s really cool about tackling I mean it’s kinda like kind of like what we try and do tackling hard questions, polarizing questions from a biblical perspective. Um and so they’re, you know, asking about hypnosis and they have their answer and it’s very much hypnosis is wrong for, you know, one, two, three, four, five reasons.

Mark:

Yep

Justin:

Um, all of which are good reasons, you know. I think I think it’s a solid argument. Um I came away from re from reading it. I mean you you briefly mentioned something about um opening our mind to influence, right?

Mark:

Sure. Gateways.

Justin:

Yes, gateway gateways, yeah. That’s good. And I and I was thinking about w some of those points sound exact if you didn’t know they were talking about hypnotism, you you could think about them talking about Um you get like catfishing, you know, catfishing, right? Or um someone who’s in the influence of somebody they shouldn’t be and how, you know, influential that can be and how they can basically change their brain to say you know, weird creepy people like us are trustworthy and everyone else is not, you know, and kinda some of that stuff that can happen, right? It made me think about how and I and of course that the author of that article wouldn’t argue that those are good situations either. I guess I was just saying like the way they described it didn’t sound that different from other ways to be influenced that if you are not entering it with a wise mind and uh the desi you know, yeah and healthy desires, it can be really problematic.

Mark:

Sure. And I think even even as I, you know, uh it’s funny ’cause you bring that up. It’s like even as I was talking about research and, you know, and and smart people, you know the whole uh and it’s definitely the beginning of Romans, maybe it’s not Romans one. But you know, where it talks about, you know they they gave themselves over basically to intelligence, you know, these knowledgeable people and they still did, you know, they to uh A depraved mind, if you will. You follow me? And I’m I’m not

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m not at that point where I’m saying, you know, all all science is is all good. All research is all good. But I think we do have to be mindful or be aware. um that there are many things about I think there are many things about our body, about our mind-body connection that we are really unaware of or have been unaware of. And so much, you know, research is being done in such a way that there is a greater awareness. And I and I’d still say some of these things, you know, like mindfulness, if you want to take it, you know, from a Um Eastern mysticism type perspective, you know, where, you know, I am emptying myself.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

you know, and the you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I’m not I’m not for that, but uh the the process of mindfulness in being focused and even I would even dare say, you know, um some of what I do in a devotional, you know, Christ-centered devotion is part of mindfulness. My ability to get up at a certain time and have certain routines and certain structures. I believe that’s mindfulness for me.

Justin:

Well you uh Yeah, I feel like that’s a good parallel, right? This idea so meditation, right. It can it can go two directions. It can go to that eastern meditation and empty your brain, that kind of thing, and it can go you know, w that’s the term we often use in in Christian circles to talk about, you know, quiet time or whatever. It’s kind of meditation or whatever. Sure. And the difference being, you know, trying to empty your brain versus trying to focus your brain.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And I feel like that is a good correlation to the This concept of hypnosis where um you know kind of the stage hypnosis is trying to reset your brain state so that I can get you to do something I want you to do. Yep. Where clinical hypnosis is this idea to Uh first you start with focus, right? And it’s kinda similar to what you were saying about the ketamine therapy where they kind of set up right the s the

Mark:

Well in ketamine therapy you’re actually given the the drug

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

That kind of thing. But yes.

Justin:

Yeah, and this is essentially that but without the drug, right? Exactly. a setting up of an environment to to initiate a certain specific change. It’s therapy. It’s a this attempt to reframe your thinking about a particular thing. Usually it’s trauma, right? Like or maybe a strong addiction or phobias, yeah.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um and and this is very much in that vein, you know, according to what my understanding from this.

Mark:

No, no.

Justin:

Um where there’s this setup, there’s this focusing of your efforts towards this one thing. Yes. And then that brain state, you know, you you get into the state where you’re able to rethink things. And I thought that was pretty cool. But again, yeah. That correlation seemed to tie pretty well together, this idea of meditating for the sake of emptying your brain or meditating for the sake of focusing it.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Similar I think in the hypnosis thing. Like if you’re If your attempt is just to empty your brain or you know I don’t know.

Mark:

And it and uh I’ll be honest, in the got questions perspective, it’s not that I disagreed with anything of that. But it definitely and um and I think it brings up um that that context of hypnosable versus non-hypnosable. Yeah. You know hypnosable people will be able to have this connection of if I if I may say so without using the brain parts, you know, that there isn’t this conflict. this inner brain conflict, you know, and that allows them to be hypnosed.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, to the to the point of being you know, brought into this state where I’m open to this gateway and then there’s a influence that’s provided there.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

Well it’s cool. Yeah, that’s he he talked pretty much at length about hypnotizability, which is which you’re talking about, and this idea that you know something there’s uh a g wide swath of you know, people and how hypnotizable they are and some are some are very, you know, uh uh uh Hypnotizable and some are not. Sure. You said that just has a lot to do with kind of your brain makeup and how you think about things.

Mark:

The conflict.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, the conflict. Whether you can disassociate you know, competing idea, you know, or whatever.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Yeah. And um but yeah, I I that may I think that’s pretty interesting. And I think uh I’ll be I’d be curious to know Essentially, I feel like a lot of times trauma can reframe our brain to think a certain way, right? Like it’s kind of a forcing of neural pathways to be inserted into our brain. That’s an an unhealthy pattern, but it’s it’s due to this kind of sheer force of the brain through trauma, right? Experience. Yeah.

Mark:

I like to think of it and this is how I think of it. I tend to think of, you know, our brain, we have these neural pathways, okay? and they’re very similar to what I what I used to call a crick, but it’s actually a creek. You know, these these smaller pathways. Okay. Well when when we experience trauma Okay, it’s like a huge flood comes through. And now all those little individual creeks

Justin:

are

Mark:

and tributaries that you know just kind of meandered Now there’s this this cutting force that has gone through and in many cases rewired those neuropathways. So instead of having these individual, you know, tributaries that can kind of filter, you know, certain things out, you know, now we have this big river that’s gone through And now it it makes it seem as if everything is connected to that one thing.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because they don’t have these little parts that can kind of filter out where, uh , we went this way. We used to go this way, then that way. You know, now it’s all one pathway. That’s that’s that’s the analogy that I would typically use.

Justin:

I like that analogy a lot, yeah.

Mark:

So

Justin:

to add nuance back in so that you can And that’s, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy is about like let’s think through this thing and think about right? Uh yeah. Yeah. Uh let’s let’s process this river and start to tease out these tributaries a little bit to see if we can say, well is this thing always in that same river? It’s no sometimes it’s not. So you can start to separate these strands back out theoretically over. And that was one of the things they said in this episode too, like that’s effective in that cognitive you know, therapy of that sort. He they d they said hypnotism is just a lot faster. It’s essentially the same process, just a lot faster, which I thought was interesting. But it’s this idea that you can get someone into a state where they’re more able to accept um these the suggestions, right? Influence. The influence, yeah. And if the goal

Mark:

yeah, go ahead, sorry.

Justin:

If the goal of that influence is to, you know, address to those the specific trauma or whatever, it can be really uh s you know, according to them and according to how hypnopi hypnotizable you are. It can be very effective in terms of just getting right to the root of the issue, teasing it out, working it out, doing it in a safe way. Sure. One of the things they mentioned is that um when they pre prep you for it, they give you all the tools to be in control of it. So you can turn it on, you can turn it off, and then essentially their goal is to make it something reproducible. So whenever you need to like you know, reframe your brain again ’cause you feel like it’s starting to go back to that river state. You could enter that state of hypnotism self You know, whatever hypnotism to be able to kind of read go through these um, you know, the process of whatever it is and anyway, I thought that was interesting. Uh essentially they’re saying like it’s a it’s a way to kind of uh quickly or I guess maybe short circuit the thing. The pro the normal process, yeah.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Which anytime you hear a shortcut, you know, that’s that can be a uh you should be weary of shortcuts for many reasons. Sure. But

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Your thoughts.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s what that’s what and I and I think, you know, even the word therapy for years in general, you know, it’s like, no. And I think and I think what makes that difference is my viewpoint. And granted, you know, I was I sh I shifted. I’m not saying, you know, I mean I remember you know, seeing people staged in my personal life, you know, on a you know, from a hypnotic standpoint, you know, I’ve I’ve I’ve experienced that, seen that. You know, and it’s like and I and I do feel uh they sh talked about it in the uh the podcast too, you know. I I think that’s that k that’s irresponsible you know, in some ways to use that and I think

Justin:

Can you explain that?

Mark:

In other words, I’ve I’ve I’ve s seen hypnotists hired hired hypnotists come into a oh yeah.

Justin:

Like you’ve been present for the experience.

Mark:

Yeah, I’ve been present for the experience. I’ve s

Justin:

Tell me more.

Mark:

Well, it’s like I said, you know, it’s like you can take a grown, you know fifty year old respectable individual and turn them into a laughing stock because every time you know you say a word they’ll cluck like a chicken.

Justin:

Was that the purpose like What was the event that the that the

Mark:

It was like a uh a conference?

Justin:

Okay. You know as part of training or

Mark:

It it was like the evening entertainment or you know, like your you know, your two o’clock break or whatever, you know, when everybody’s falling asleep. You know, you bring in you bring in the keynote, you know, the yeah, you bring in the, you know the the entertainment if you Okay. I believe it was actually I believe it was actually like evening entertainment, like the the you know, the gala or whatever. You know. And so, you know, they’d take individuals, of course, that you know were actually, you know, managers or higher up people and put them on this stage and, you know, make them look like laughing stocks, which of course, from a you know, a group mentality. It’s like, yeah, we’re all for this, you know, put it to the man type stuff. But I uh it wasn’t in, you know, it was in the podcast, you know, that they brought up, you know, sometimes, you know, in this process of staging and entertainment. Of course, you know, we’re we’re putting people in this state, but we’re not always mindful of bringing them out. And I thought, you know, that’s I d uh I’ll be honest, there was a lot of parallels in my perspective with what I do, you know, and how and how being a being responsible for people’s time br taking them into a state because I believe therapy and hypnosis and other things does come back to the responsibility of the person to put safeguards in place. It has to be safe. ‘Cause if it’s not safe, nothing’s gonna change, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Yeah, I I like what you’re saying about time and and responsible for this essentially the session because I I think what you’re getting at is this idea that you can you could work ’em all up and get ’em all riled up right to the end of the session and that’s what they’re leaving ’cause their brain has been you know, their state has been changed to be in this very irritable state and unwilling to You know, maybe just con be confront yeah, whatever. Kind of leaving in a an in a not great state. And so you you see it as your responsibility to kind of bring them into his a place and then bring them back to uh yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Which it also makes a lot of sense what you know, as far as what they’re saying about um short circuiting some of that process to be able, Okay, let’s get right back to you know, the work and then get right back out of it, you know Um

Mark:

and I think and I think that’s where, you know, they mentioned uh well, you mentioned it as far as, you know, we all have different schemas. you know, as far as what one word may mean to you is far different than what it may money. For example.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, what does that mean when I say the word money alone, what does that say to you, you know, versus what it means to me? And likely we’re gonna view that very differently. Well, it they they mentioned the, you know, the one lady who had been part of a stage dynamic. And, you know, she was supposed to hold a little bird.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and she saw herself as a uh as a trophy wife who was the bird in the gilded cage. And You know, and that that state was never recognized and she wasn’t transitioned out. And that’s irresponsible on my part. You know to be able to take someone to that state and then you know not be able to you know reprocess that state in such a way that says okay we’re coming back because I believe Yeah, that’s a that’s a a lot of what therapy is from my perspective is this exposure.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Not not I’m not an exposure therapist, but we’re able to talk about things. It has to be a safe environment for me to go into this mental state. of feeling safe enough to talk about that traumatic experience. And I think what I w I think what hypnotism does in this clinical sense of hypnotism is it is able to get me into that state quicker. And I think there again, I think we have multiple, not multiple, but I think we have more gateways as I refer to them than just, you know, the cognitive behavioral thinking pathway. You know, I think there is a mindfulness type dynamic. you know, and I also, you know, like EMDR and and these other and chemically induced, you know, gateways. I’m not it it’s it’s funny ’cause and uh I go clear back, you know, not clear back. I’m not, but just in the research, and this is this is what makes it interesting, is I believe this is how complex we are That some things work for some people that won’t work for other people. That’s all there is to it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, um, I’m no I’m not sure I’ve mentioned it in here or not in the podcast, but there’s a great book. Uh Vanderkalk is his last name. uh Norwegian sounding kind of guy. But uh the body keeps the score. And he’s probably done the most research compared to or at least written so much on uh the whole trauma experience. And you know, he goes through this process, and uh and this is kind of what connects it to hypnosis for me. He goes through that, and at the end of this book He goes through all of the different dynamics that have been used to treat trauma because there just really isn’t one cookie cutter size thing to be able to deal with trauma. And yes, you know, th yoga works for some people. Mindfulness works for talk therapy works for some people. You know, but ultimately I think at the basis of all of it is this ability to recognize that I’m not just a uh a hand um I’m not just a a body full of triggers.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

You follow me? I’m not, I’m not re I don’t have to react. Exactly. I don’t have to react to everything. And I’m able to learn, and I would say this for even from a scriptural standpoint, there would be, I suppose you could you could shift it like most things you can shift them into a non-scriptural perspective or a non-biblical perspective but From my perspective, I don’t have an issue. I th one’s the fruits of the spirit. Self-control You follow me? In in that dynamic, I’m learning that when I experience that, and that we see that with phobias. Phobias would be a good example. you know, I see a snake. Well, is it healthy for me to have a reaction to a snake? Yes, probably so. But yeah, you know, now and if I’ve been bitten by a dog You know, I’m I’m gonna but is that to say all dogs are mean and nasty? You know, and they’re gonna bite me in the face. No. So, you know, that ability that I have, and I think that’s where, as they were talking about the clinical hypnosis, it’s able to take me to that point where I’m shifting my thoughts about that conflict, the the dog represents pain and you know hospitalization for me. All dogs represent that. That creates a conflict. And then being able to kind of have that exposure that says, okay, you know, is every experience been this way? And how would you interact, you know? Is this the way you act interact with everything that has hurt you? You know, that it’s like, no. You know, I’ve been hurt by other people. Or, you know, I’ve been hurt by you know, sticks, but yeah, I still you know, stones and you know

Justin:

, yeah, and this is idea uh um I really like kind of what they’re saying. They they chatted a little bit at one point about how, um, you know, we try to avoid pain and we try to avoid any kind of s you know, stress.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right. And they’re saying, well, stress is part of life and and we have to learn how to deal with strife, not avoid it, because you You just can’t you can’t avoid stress. So the more work you do at canceling everybody and and cle creating a clean room of stress or whatever.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

The more stressed you’ll be. Like the more you know that the the every little thing will be that much more stressful.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um and so they’re they use the term of s the or they re reference the term called stress inoculation. Yep Which is done in some studies with some chimps. Uh this idea of taking them away from their mother for a bit of time, uh a little bit a day would actually make them two hours a day. It would actually make them more uh resilient to to stressors

Mark:

In the future.

Justin:

In the future, yeah.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um which

Mark:

trust tolerance is basically

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But um I like what they’re saying. They’re basically saying if you want to heal trauma, there’s no way to heal it without going to it

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Without you know, going back to that stressor and re examining it and and that’s kinda th the point of what you’re saying, kind of the point of what they’re saying is like No matter what, that’s what you gotta do.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Now some people c can do it through ketamine therapy. Some people you know, even y you’ve heard of psilocybin with mushrooms, that kind of thing. Like that’s um I’ve I read this article about um vets who come back and are, you know, PTSD, depression, you know, anger episodes, that kind of thing, and there’s a clinic I think in Mexico or something. Obviously it’s kind of shady this shady thing, right?

Mark:

Crossing the border.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. Um and come back and you know, be able to live a normal life, that kind of thing. Um there’s that, there’s hypnosis again, but the goal of all of these things if done in a therapeutic you know, a session is this attempt to take you right back to that trauma and start to peel apart these tributaries again. Right? So you’re in the room. What what was it like? uh why you know and describing the situation um but if you’re in this the whole thing with again what I understand about hypnosis is All right, we’re gonna do this thing. Here’s how here’s how you’re in control. Like you’re gonna look at it you’re gonna enter the state and you’re gonna look at the screen on your left. The screen on your left is gonna be the s the trauma situation. The screen on your right’s gonna be some buttons that you can control it, you know. And so when you’re you know, when you reach a state where you’re not comfortable, you just hit this button to stop and then we’ll pop back out and we’ll be in a safe place or whatever. Um And just the b ability to project in your mind onto screens. Sure. Just the ability to say, it’s not a real thing, it’s this thing that’s replaying in front of me that I can control. Sure. Allows you to go back into that memory and kind of rewind, fast forward, pause, you know, and work through that And say, now when this happened, what what was the situation? What mean and they use this one example of this lady who had uh been assaulted and She kinda came away from it as she zoomed into the situation and kind of relived it, going, Wow, it could have been way worse. Like he could have murdered me. Um and you know, the the takeaway was w what did you find about that? You know, I think actually uh he didn’t expect me to fight. Like I think I was stronger than he thought I was, and I ended up being able to get out of that situation And so the result of this therapy was to go back and go, you know, you’re not as vulnerable as it made you feel. Like you were actually very strong in that situation and managed to escape or whatever it was. And that allowed her to start reframing some of those insecurities to say, you know, I’m pretty strong and you know I don’t know, it’s kind of uh interesting uh situation that they set up, but I like this idea of creating the safe construct to then go into the thing.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Because from my understanding and from our conversation just, you know There’s no other way to deal with trauma but to deal with it. Like to go to it and work through it, tease it apart. Is that

Mark:

No, it’s and it’s it’s interesting because I I think and um I’m talking uh at times, you know, as as we’re talking, I’m thinking, you know, I use the terminology gateways and so on and so forth. But, you know, I would dare say you know, sex and sexuality, you know, are basically our God-given design to be able to have sex as another way, another gateway of influence, if you will. And I think, you know, so often it is when it’s used out of context that, you know, it becomes damaging.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But in God’s design for it It’s very, you know, comforting. It’s very, you know, it it builds relationship, bonding. Yes. There’s a design for it.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think sometimes, you know, that’s that’s what you know, in that process and w think uh when you when we even think of the word uh charisma or someone who’s charismatic. You know, we can think of, you know, Jim Jones or somebody like that who or Dave Koresh who, you know, led many people away, you know, and you know, to uh in in an occult type dynamic, you know, cause that I think that would be one thing that most cult leaders would have you know, but you can take someone else who like like Jimmy Evans or somebody who just has a passion for marriage or somebody like that and and leads multiple people in a in a in a godly, you know, biblical direction, doesn’t have to maintain that following for a false sense of pride. But yeah, they have a following. You know, people have a following. Who’s the who uh ol um Olstein, you know, he has a following. You know, and I think, you know, so we have to be careful from my perspective about saying, oh, that’s that. That’s that’s of the occult. you know, charisma, that’s all, you know, people who are charismatic just lead people astray. Huh? Not always, you know We all we all know and well your your mentor was a very charismatic, you know, as you described Keith in that process. You know, someone who could lead people. Granted, maybe he was he didn’t deal with his own pride issues of self. But yet it’s not that what he did didn’t have an impact for the kingdom either.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I think that’s where I come from kind of with this, you know, it’s it’s the brick. Or it’s the money thing, you know, we can wanna shift quickly to, you know, money’s the root of all evil. Well, no, the love of money is the root of all evil. You know, and a brick can be used to be pitched through a window, but yet it can also build, you know, up

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

schools and educational facilities, you know, that kind of thing. It’s and that that’s how I see so much of what you know part of what God has given us in these different gateways to be able to shift that influence in some ways. And and it’s and uh and here again, uh I’m j I’m just thinking of it as as I was going through that. It’s it’s not about me in this process, but I would dare say I have my you know, mindfulness practices. Like um the the one that came to mind for me is um i there’s no no secret I’ll take naps sometimes, you know, in in my office in the process of a day if I have a break or something. And it’s like I’ve been able to go to sleep, you know, three times in seven minutes before. Just because I can go to sleep that quickly and you know, a dream might wake me up or something. But part of my routine is I’ll I’ll have a routine. I’ll I’ll I lay down in a certain way. I, you know, and and then I start counting. You know, and that that just basically gives me a single-minded focus. I’m not saying, well, I got this client. What if my alarm doesn’t go off? What if this what if what all I’m doing is counting And by the time I’m to ten, I’m typically asleep. You know, because I’m not

Justin:

which

Mark:

in that divided.

Justin:

Very similar to hypnosis, right?

Mark:

In a lot of cases, yes. And like EMDR You know, uh eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. Whew. Oh yeah, well, like you say, it’s uh I sometimes get restructuring, but it’s reprocessing. And basically, you know, that’s that’s another gateway, if you will. And I th then, you know, they mentioned it in there. But I think it it it’s basically my ability to move my eyes back and forth. in such a way and um you know it was it was noticed by a lady who was walking through a park, you know, as the founder of that that process and you know it’s like and we have these abilities sometimes you know when we tend to look up to the left you know it kind of signifies part of our design, there’s a purpose for that. There’s like a conscious, you know, I’m I’m tapping into my self-conscious when I’m looking up, either to the right or to the left. I don’t have that part down, I’ll be honest with you. But Our eyes do certain things, you know, when we’re processing, you know, and it’s and it’s you know it’s so That’s another, if I wa if I may say, you know, I’m using the term loosely a little bit this morning, but another gateway that we have to be able to be open to these processes of influence and being able to minimize pain. It was that that lady recognized that, you know, as she moved her eyes in a specific way You know, and it had s and it had uh, as I’m recalling a little more, it had something to do with the way the light was coming through the trees. So if you think about it, some people, um, especially um seizures, people who are given to seizures, a strobing effect. can bring on seizures for people.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And that’s what it was for her. It was like a sunset and passing through trees in this process and she recognized she was moving her eyes in a certain way and she suddenly recognized that she what was once a painful thought or memory was n l had lost its significance. So, you know, it’s like, and from my perspective, that’s not, you know, that’s not seancing, that’s not trans, you know, transcendental m meditation. You know, I mean it’s just that was an experience and it created an awareness and she looked to develop that in a way that helped other people find that relief from those painful memories as well.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And so granted, yeah.

Justin:

And you know, the brick analogy is great, right? Every tool can be used to hurt her to a harm or to to help and Yep.

Mark:

Tear down, build up.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things I really enjoyed about this particular podcast episode was hearing this Dr. Spiegel kind of talk about how his life’s work has been about trying to figure out the best way to help people and he said this seems to be the best way and I really enjoy seeing this tool be used to help people and Um so that kind of helped uh reframe the brick a little bit for me, right? To kind of hear that perspective and yeah, oh, that tool can be used in that way and and it’s been effective in helping to build the house, right? Like Um so yeah, I think we’ll we’re definitely gonna we’ll link to these different resources. Yeah, by all means. Yeah, the podcast episode, you know. Um yeah, and I would encourage any of you, you know, listeners, like read this stuff. Yeah. Listen to the stuff. Make your own, you know, kind of decisions and and and thoughts on it. But Um, just a very it was very interesting to me to think about this. And all of this stuff really is. Anything any you mentioned gateway, right? Like the any gateway to me is fascinating. I got this idea where you’re telling me I can get kind of sh like short circuit this process to get to this uh brain change. And the thing is I know brain change is possible and I know that there are long pathways to get to that. Sure. And that’s Celebrate recovery, you know, like if you’re involved in a program like that for years and years, you your brain will change for the better, you know, i when you’re invol or if you have a good, you know, quality group of friends and you meet regularly Or you have a mastermind. You have you heard that term like a business mastermind where you meet with other people in a similar business set, you know, sure. And th it’s all at this goal to hold each other accountable to learn and grow from each other. Yep. Anything like that is this attempt to um re you know, reframe your brain pathways to be more effective, you know.

Mark:

We can even look at that as the early church model. Coming coming together, small groups coming together, you know, with a positive word, you know, a word of encouragement, a a word from the you know, or a a song, you know, that kind of thing.

Justin:

Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mark:

That’s the hope, you know. And and as As a I was thinking about, you know, as you were mentioning CR, you know, from my perspective, CR is a more complex dynamic. You follow me because you have the twelve steps, you know, you have this gathering. Yeah. That offer people tools. to be able to implement in such a way on a on a complex dynamic, you know, whether it’s Hertz, habits, or hang ups. But I th I think about it so often and I um I tend to think about things somewhat in a fundamental way. And um the breathing was another one that came to mind, you know.

Justin:

Breathing exercise. Yeah.

Mark:

For me that’s a fundamental, you know, to where when I exp because that’s a God given you know, auto automatic nervous system type thing to be able to say once that w I’m I’m I’m floating down that river again And I’m feeling all these things from a somatic, you know, my body is feeling these things at a certain level. And it’s like I can still engage my prefrontal cortex in such a way that says, okay I’m feeling this, but it doesn’t have to be the same.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

As it was. And I can and I can start, you know, that diaphragmatic breathing. that r that takes back the control of my body, you know, from my um prefrontal codex. Uh huh Primary primary function. You know, I’m taking I’m taking I’m um bypassing my flight or fight mechanisms. in such a way that I’m re-engaging my body. I’m able to take that because like you say, my uh primary function is strong because it’s designed to keep me alive, but it’s not real smart.

Justin:

Right

Mark:

So fireworks and gunfire are very similar.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I have to engage my prefrontal cortex to be able to decipher that difference.

Justin:

To tease them out, yeah.

Mark:

Exactly. And so when I’m able to breathe, I’m able to keep that function online that says, okay, you know, this is Fourth of July. This isn’t Afghanistan again.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? And I think that’s and that’s and I think that’s part of that hypnosis when I can go to that state and um and I think it like you’re saying it bypasses in such a way. that I can get that influence quicker and yet I can still maintain a certain level of self control. You know, not that we’re all in control. You know what I mean? any other word if it’s if it goes too far. If I have to think that I’m God and I maintain ultimate control, then I’m going too far.

Justin:

Exactly.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. No, yeah, that’s yeah, it’s really all good stuff. That it makes me think of something that’s been really front of mine and actually that’s a that’s a pun for about what I’m about to say. But like uh I’ve been talking about this recently a lot, specifically um in regards to some conversations with some friends, I have um, you know, I I work with sexual addiction a lot, right? And that’s something in my background. So I like I I I work with others to try and work through that. And there’s this one concept that we c that we call bouncing eyes.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

It’s this idea that um, you know, instead of keeps fixating on a woman as she walks through the door. Maybe she’s, you know, scantily clad or whatever, instead of fixating on that, like bounce, you know, I notice, I move on, right? Um, but the big kind of the premise behind that from my perspective is bringing something from the subconscious up into the consciousness. So it’s kind of r taking it from the primary function of ooh sex, need it you know, into this front this uh frontal cortex area where you go, Yeah, but that’s that’s that’s a woman. I respect her. I don’t you know, that’s not She’s not mine to have. Yep.

Mark:

She’s not a possession.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. She’s not even an object. She’s a human being. She has a m a she has parents. She might have kids. Bringing it up into the the consciousness instead of leaving it. And I feel like so much of addiction and and problematic behavior is because it’s left in the subconscious. So a lot of the work of recovery is like let’s let’s bump it up into the consciousness. So let’s be focused on this thing instead of not thinking about this thing. And that’s why there’s so much uh repetitive behavior and recovery and sure you know consistent environments, consistent people, places, things that you do is is is to keep this thing up in the in the frontal cortex instead of letting it fall back to primary functions of like that thing solves my needs, I need more, you know Um, and I I I don’t know, for some reason that’s come up in conversations like several times in that past couple weeks, so it made me think of that. But this idea of like separating it, you know, bring it up out of the self-conscious subconscious to be able to actually operate on it.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

To be able to think about it, roll it around in your hand like I’m I’m holding my hands in front of me, right? This is the idea in front of me I can look at it, I can turn it, I can move it, I can do what I need to do with it, instead of just letting it control me subconsciously Um, and I feel like that’s a lot of what these gateways allow you to do is like take this thing from that primary side of just Fight or play, yeah, subconscious and bring it up into the consciousness where you can ro hold it in your hand, roll it around, look at it, um in in some ways in a short circuited fashion where you know holding that thing in your hand might f you y you might be like, I can’t do that. It’s gonna burn my hands or whatever. It’s just like this like sphere. You can kinda jump into that in a in a expedited form, whether it’s through chemical or hypnosis or whatever to where you’re now you’re able to operate with it safely.

Mark:

Yeah. And I think it’s interesting because I’ll I’ll what you’re talking about in the subconscious. You know, I’ll typically identify those as files. In other words, we have a multitude of files in our subconscious that we typically when someone asks us a question or we’re posed with a conflict we’ll we typically well it’s about eight seconds average is about eight seconds most decisions we have about seven to ten seconds to be able to formulize a decision. And so often our tendency is to not even bring it so much to the to the conscious. We leave it in the we we just make that decision based on those prior files of family, sex, you know, whatever you know, we need to combine I pull it out of those files to be able to make that decision. And it’s just funny because, you know, when you think about eight seconds, eight seconds can be a long time if you’re riding a bull. Yeah. You know, but it can be a instant if you’re trying to, you know, if you’re just following a habit.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So I like that what you’re saying.

Justin:

Right. So probably most things you we pull from the cash and we move on and Oh yeah, that’s what I’m saying. But you

Mark:

we have We still have seven to ten seconds, give or take, you know, eight seconds to make a different decision in that process. When we have that to in order to bring it from the subconscious. to the conscious, we still have like like on TV, we have that eight second delay or whatever to be able to say, no, I’m not gonna do that. And that’s just a conscious decision and being able to make that in such a way that gives me a level of self-control can make all the difference.

Justin:

So if I Reframe what you’re saying or or try and understand a little bit more. Essentially if I struggle with uh compulsive behavior uh maybe one one particular tool to use is say whenever you have a compulsion to do that thing, think about it for eight seconds.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Or ten. Go for ten just before I do that. And if you still Gotta have that cookie. Well, you know, whatever. But if you can do every single time you have a compulsion, you give it that 10 second focused thought.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Do I need it? Can I wait can I wait, you know, twenty minutes, you know, go through the ten seconds is a long time to think about all the things. And at the end if you’re like, No, I gotta have it, well, h help yourself. But if you can get you know, if if in the course of that here I feel like it’s a good tool, is that kind of

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

No doubt. And then I think too, you know, in this process, not getting frustrated with ourselves.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I think, you know, well, I shouldn’t have done that. You know, da da da. I’m terrible. I shouldn’t, you know, that thought came to my mind. Here again, I’m

Justin:

Yeah, we need to do an episode on Shane.

Mark:

Yeah. I think we have.

Justin:

At this point you gotta you gotta understand. It’s it’s hard to remember more.

Mark:

But at this at the same time I’m I’m thinking about it in that context of, you know. How things come to my mind and I have the ability to process it. I have to have the ability to take my thoughts captive, self-control, those kind of things. When I’m able to engage that, and that’s where um In some ways, I don’t have an issue, you know, with a physical exercise of like yoga.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I think it it it’s another form of being able to exercise a level of self-control. That what I wasn’t able to do, I didn’t have this flexibility before You know, now I’ve basically worked on it and now I have this ability. And that’s just a from my perspective a healthy form of self-control.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And when I can exercise that, then I’m able to apply that to other areas of my life as well.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s it’s like learning how to yeah. It’s like a safe way to learn how to reprogram, right? Yeah.

Mark:

Even though in that circumstance, like when you mentioned the woman, you know, who was, you know, experienced sexual abuse, that kind of thing, you know, sh it’s a matter of that relearning you know, that I may not have had control in that situation, full control. I didn’t may not have had a hundred percent, but I had certain controls.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m able to see that better.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m able to recognize that in life I still have certain controls and I’m working to in uh you know, increase those controls that that are available to me.

Justin:

Yeah, we just recently had an episode on the serenity prayer, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um and that’s a You know, while you’re talking about control, the other half of this equation is where we don’t and learning the difference. And I feel like that’s where we get stuck ’cause it is important to know when you don’t have control.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

And it’s and it’s and there’s something to be said for accepting that as well.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, so we don’t have to re-tease the serenity prayer, but I d I do think that’s a as much as we talk about needing to learn control It’s also important to understand what you don’t have control over. You don’t have control over someone else’s behavior, for instance. And so you know, that’s where codependence needs some reprogramming to be able to say, no, I can’t im you know, I can’t make that person do what I want to make them do.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

No matter what my behavior is, even if I get them to do what I’m trying to make them do, it’s gonna be based on my efforts, not their own. You know, and So like, yeah, understanding the difference between what I have control over and what I don’t is is a pretty important skill to have. Um but yeah.

Mark:

And I as I was thinking about what you were saying too, I think you know, that that scripture about um you know all everything’s permissible

Justin:

You’re playing my guitar.

Mark:

I’m playing your guitar by turning your chair.

Justin:

I don’t know if you’ll you’ll hear that, but if you do, you’ll understand.

Mark:

Yeah. But uh in that process of you know, everything except um How’s how’s that going?

Justin:

Yeah, everything is permissible, but not everything. Everything is beneficial.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think about that. I I would extend that to all of our listeners who may disagree on the topic of hip hypnosis. If it’s not Something, you know, I’m not saying everybody needs to do it by any means, but you know, if it’s something that you feel is wrong you know, uh that’s okay. Yeah. And for you it is wrong at that point.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and uh, you know, I think that’s that’s part of how I see it and being able to recognize, okay As I learn though that there are differences between, you know, what I’ve experienced or what I think I think, you know, there’s something to be said for that awareness that says, okay, yeah. I’m um this this that has less conflict in my mind, not that I’m accepting all things, but I’m willing to filter in such a way that says, okay, God. I can talk with you about this subject and you know anything that I can talk with God about is healthy from my perspective.

Justin:

You know, right.

Mark:

That awareness.

Justin:

There’s no subject off limits with him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, which is very Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right. Right Uh you James four seventeen says remember to send to know what you ought to do and then not to do it. And vice versa, to to know you shouldn’t do something and then to do it. So I think that applies here in the sense like

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. We’re not encouraging anyone to do something that they don’t believe is right, but it’s it’s definitely an opportunity to kind of think about these things from a um maybe a more healthy perspective instead of the traditional stage version um to be able to think about it from uh yeah potentially offering help to people who need help.

Mark:

Yeah. Nope. That’s uh that’s uh what I guess what we desire to do.

Justin:

That’s right.

Mark:

Is offer the ability to offer help in such a way that says, hey. This is this is something we’re aware of and we might as well talk about it because it can seem to be polarizing at times.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Because that’s how we see it.

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.