Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg.

Justin:

This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization. Through thoughtful conversations. Hey, it’s running.

Mark:

That’s right. It’s running.

Justin:

The numbers are counting up. It’s a good sign.

Mark:

We’re gonna remember that for a while.

Justin:

You know what you should say. You should say, I hear ya.

Mark:

I hear ya. I hear ya. I hear ya. I hear ya. Oh, I hear you.

Justin:

We uh we just listened uh just a little bit of the past episode and uh

Mark:

Yeah. Recognizing some uh

Justin:

Mark heard me a lot.

Mark:

I did I was trying to think of what that’s called when you say something too much. A euphemism is it?

Justin:

Well we call it Markisms.

Mark:

Markisms. Yes, because Mark has too many isms where he does have Catchphrases on the case. Catch phrases. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. It’s like

Justin:

it’s like uh yeah, like one of those old timey detective shows. You know, you got a catchphrase or whatever yours is I hear ya.

Mark:

I am working on it though And I think that’s another part of this.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think it’s like teaching, it’s like anything like that. You have to be able to do it. You do it. And then you recognize what you can improve on.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because we haven’t arrived yet.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I uh I as I think about it I hear you has meaning to me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But when it’s used too often, it becomes redundant.

Justin:

It loses meaning.

Mark:

Yes, and I think it it started even some ways from early on and maybe even counseling to a degree of the ability to say I’m acknowledging what you said, but I may not necessarily agree with you.

Justin:

I hear you.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s different. It’s because when we say okay That can sound like affirmation when and then someone might be saying, I just beat my dog, and we want to hear them. And recognize that that happened and I think that was my way of adjusting to not being able to say okay.

Justin:

That was Mark’s way of the typical like uh like psychologists like nodding their head and going, mmm and then writing in their notebook.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s your version of that.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Like shoving their glasses up on their nose and then writing on their That was your version. I hear ya.

Mark:

Yes. Yes. I like it. May maybe not quite the the affirmatively, but yes. Yes.

Justin:

No, just you know, the scribbling in their notebook and you’re like what you saying about me that whole thing. Oh you’re just saying I hear you.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because I think there can be a certain empathy that’s there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But I have to admit I can overuse

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And that’s part of this.

Justin:

What’s the other one we like to pick on?

Mark:

Uh for me?

Justin:

Like I say.

Mark:

Like I say.

Justin:

That’s honestly one of my favorite things to do. So I hope you don’t. give up on the

Mark:

I’m I I d I it’s not a matter of giving up

Justin:

it’s an ism that I enjoy.

Mark:

But it’s how often you use it, I think. Yeah. I agree with that. So yeah. So this is how I see it. There’s a little bit of how I see it right there. That’s good. Where that came from.

Justin:

We also recognize the past episode there was a few awkward pauses there, little breaks. At least for me. But we

Mark:

did that. Yeah, but we realized if you listen to it in fast time.

Justin:

Yeah, you swe sound brilliant.

Mark:

Everyone

Justin:

should do that. When you listen to our podcast, just Go to two X and we will sound

Mark:

much faster.

Justin:

So smart.

Mark:

And it’ll fly by.

Justin:

It will fly by, yeah. Yeah. This double benefit. That’s actually how I listen to podcasts.

Mark:

Is it?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay

Justin:

Yeah. And then when I listen at normal speed I’m like they don’t sound as smart. It’s weird. Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

But I know they’re smart because that’s why I listen. But it’s That’s

Mark:

it. That’s how you see it. You’ve learned.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

No, at the at the beginning of the last episode I said, This is Mark Pratt and I got a little worried that everyone, since they couldn’t see me looking at you saying, This is Mark Pratt, that they were thinking it was me saying, I’m Mark Pratt. I could never carry the Mark Pratt name.

Mark:

You don’t want it.

Justin:

No, I don’t want it.

Mark:

You be Justin.

Justin:

I’ll be Justin.

Mark:

That’s right. You’d be your good Justin.

Justin:

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Thank you.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

You’re also a good Mark.

Mark:

Well, either way.

Justin:

And if you weren’t Mark, we wouldn’t have Markism, so

Mark:

That’s true.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s true. But that brings us to our topic for today.

Justin:

It does.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s not really a good segue, but it’s

Mark:

Well it is.

Justin:

Is it? Let’s not

Mark:

in the sense of who we are. Is very much developed by our sense of or the our ability to exhibit integrity.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So yeah.

Justin:

Today we’re gonna talk a little bit about integrity. And um we’re gonna just explore it a little bit, um, talk about what it is, um kinda some questions around integrity and um maybe maybe even dispel some myths. Hopefully.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh about integrity.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’ll see.

Mark:

Yeah. No doubt. So as we uh as we think about integrity, um What makes it important to you, Justin?

Justin:

Um So before we get to why it’s important, do you mind if we talk about what it is?

Mark:

A little bit? In some ways, yes. But that’s okay. Are you asking me what it is from my perspective?

Justin:

Uh yeah. I would like to know what what is, you know, in your Mark’s dictionary.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What is integrity?

Mark:

And I think uh for me integrity is what I’m saying And what I’m doing most often tend to match. That I’m not necessarily saying Um I’ll be there, I’ll show up, and then I don’t. And I think for me, um that can even actually be a pet peeve of mine.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is when someone says they’re going to do something and they don’t.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I find myself At times, even I’ll be honest, you know, if if a person does that routinely, I will tend to distance myself from them. Because you know it’s it it’s at that point I realize how important integrity is. Because if I’m depending on you, I’m asking you to for help. And you’re either not showing up or consistently late. I’m not saying that, you know, but it’s like I don’t want to make myself or put myself in a vulnerable situation to have needed help or asked for help and That person isn’t there. That that’s kind of what that’s my perspective. And granted, it’s personal, but I think integrity is a personal thing.

Justin:

Yeah, and so there it it’s some some key um topics that kind of tie into it would be um vulnerability and trust. If I think those things kinda uh are the two outcomes of

Mark:

sure

Justin:

having integrity versus not maybe

Mark:

consequences if you will.

Justin:

Yeah consequences yeah

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

um

Mark:

What is it for you?

Justin:

For me, so this this topic is kind of a hobby horse of mine, right? We’ve talked about this before. and um uh uh the integrity w the way I kinda understood it um for you know m most of my life was this idea of this stuffy, you know, buttons uh buttoned all the way top of your collar or whatever. It just kinda like you do everything right, you look down on people who don’t, you know, it’s just like goody goody kind of thing. And um so I’ve kind of morphed my understanding of it into more of what uh you know kind of the structural integrity So if you think about in terms of a foundation of a of a building, right? And how if that foundation isn’t built well, it doesn’t have structural integrity. integrity, well none of you know none of the structure built on top of it will have structural integrity. And so you’ll have issues arise in different parts of your house because it’s you know, the foundation isn’t structurally sound, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um, you might have leaks, you might have, you know you know, settling issues or whatever.

Mark:

Cracks.

Justin:

Cracks. Exactly. Um, and so integrity to me is the the structural soundness

Mark:

mm

Justin:

uh between like what you were saying, what you say and what you do, but I think more importantly what you think is aligned with what you say and what you do.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

So, you know, basically you don’t have this vision of who you think you should be and then this this other version of who you are. and integrity to me is aligning those two m uh instead of it being a Venn diagram, right? Like here’s who I think I should be and here’s who I am, you have those two side those two ends of the V Venn diagram Instead bringing that closer and closer together to where hopefully there’s not a Venn diagram, they’re the same thing. To me that’s integrity

Mark:

Do your your two circles, if you will, overlap.

Justin:

Yes. As much as possible.

Mark:

Yeah, to where what I think Is really kind of who I am. Even if people might disagree.

Justin:

Even if I’m wrong.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Right. Um

Mark:

but and yeah, I’m still open to the ability that I can be wrong and I’m not just holding to something Because it’s it’s a hobby horse of mine.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I and I think it it’s uh interesting What I’ll I’ll I’m gonna kind of shift a little bit. Who are we talking to or what is our desire from having this conversation over integrity how do you see that or uh you want I can I can go with that or you can go with that. What’s your thoughts there?

Justin:

Um so when I think of uh uh this particular conversation And some z the people that I most would want to hear this and understand this are is me when I was younger. The 20-something year old me who had these lofty visions of who I was and who I was meant to be, but my practical output of who I was was not matching. it and so um you know I was very defensive and um I I thought it was responsible but I actually wasn’t and when I failed my responsibilities rather than taking ownership with Which to me is integrity, saying, yes, I messed up. That is integrity. Again, this goes back to my original definition. Integrity was someone who didn’t mess up. That’s not what I believe anymore. Right all

Mark:

together image, if you will.

Justin:

Exactly But I’ve I’ve learned to understand that integrity is saying sometimes I mess up and when I do I will take ownership of that and I will deal with the consequences. I will take responsibility for those consequences in and deal with that. And that’s something that I did not do well in my early twenties. I I blamed others if something came to me I’d be like, Well, I wouldn’t have done that if it wasn’t for this thing or this situation or this person. Um, it’s just, you know, and and but at the same time I thought I had integrity. I thought I was honest and true and But looking back, I just see how the ver the vision of myself I had in my head was not aligning with the vision that everyone else got. The version that everyone else

Mark:

And I think you bring up a good point the difference between my image and my integrity. I may desire to portray a certain image. that I have it together, but yeah I think that becomes counter to our integrity to the point of being able to say, yeah, I don’t have it all together. Mm-hmm. And that’s part of who I am. And I think that I think that is a a strong dynamic of of leadership. integrity when I’m able to say I don’t have it all figured out and I need your help versus maintaining an image that says Or like you might have desired to portray that I have it all together.

Justin:

I mean you you mentioned that being a strong trait of leadership. Well then then that means we have to have a whole episode on leadership and what true leadership is because you know there’s a lot of leadership that’s exhibited. most leadership I would say in in the public eye that does not exhibit they it’s about being strong, it’s about looking strong, it’s about hiding all flaws. And that’s not the kind of leadership that I embrace or I I uh believe in. I want to see a leader who can admit when they’re wrong, who can be vulnerable.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Um so y but that’s it Yeah, it’s all right.

Mark:

And I think that’s where I that’s where I draw the line between image and integrity. Because if I want to portray that I’m powerful Just for the sake of that, I I think that’s empty, like image can be. But I think we can through integrity, we can develop an image that matches to where people say, okay, yeah, it oh Justin Sternberg, yeah, he’ll he’ll do what he says he’s gonna do and and he’ll have honest conversations with you. If he if he sees something or you invite him into your life, you’re gonna hear You know what he sees, and likely you’ll find out that okay, that’s helpful in your gaining truth about who you are. Does that make sense? And I think that’s part of it’s bigger than image. But yet it becomes who we are.

Justin:

when I think about um you know when you mention image versus integrity or whatever Um, I think h I I think of the word duplicitous, right? Like uh we have a tendency to be Right. It’s it’s that separation of who we are from who we think we are and or who we’re projecting to be in. Um you know it’s it’s biblical, right? The Bible says a a double double minded man is unstable in all his way. ways, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

No, that’s yeah.

Justin:

Um and it’s true because it’s so difficult to maintain both of those things.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And so it’s so much better if we can just say let’s stop maintaining both and l maintain one. But let’s make who I actually am improve.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Versus like projecting that I’m better than I am. No, let’s work on the core issues, you know what I mean?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Like

Mark:

And I think what uh you you you were stating almost what I had in mind as far as you know if if we view ourselves as believers as being one thing on Sunday and then another thing throughout the week that’s that’s duplicitous. That’s religion, if you will.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Versus the relationship that says, no, I I bring who I am as a believer to all aspects of my life and that’s you know it is that fundamental dynamic of my character as a believer that that I personally hold to integrity being important as part of that. So that I would not be duplicitous in the way I live my life.

Justin:

Yeah, and I I would also say too like the more like the more that we are duplicitous the easier it is to be du duplicitous, right? So um if to your to your I guess the concept of church, right? Like if I’m one way on Sunday and another way on Friday night, right?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Um and I wouldn’t want s my Sunday peeps to see me on Friday night. night and vice versa.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, there’s a good chance that’s not the only way that I’m lacking in integrity. Does that make sense? Because the the more you’re trying to maintain two versions of yourself, the easier it is to maintain those two versions, you know, like not e easier the wrong word. I don’t think it’s ever easy. I think it’s all we’re not meant to do that, so it’s always difficult. But there’s something natural to that, right? Like Uh well I’ve already got this persona going over here, so I can do this in this persona.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

And I can also probably do this in this persona, and I can also probably do this in this person. But this other persona I I can’t and I have to be this way and not do those things and Yeah.

Mark:

And I think part of what I think exactly what you’re saying there is what makes this topic for us important to younger individuals because I think we are developing that lifestyle habit. if you will, that basically says, okay, I can be this way here with these people, or I can be this way here with these people. And It’s it’s about who it’s it’s more about who I surround myself with or who I am currently around versus who I am, regardless of who’s around me

Justin:

Yeah. Well we were talking about this a little bit before um before we re were recording, but as children, like I was saying, like a large part of what w happens as children is that we are programmed, right?

Mark:

Like

Justin:

And that sounds so sinister, but but it’s not. Like we’re teaching our children to live a certain way. We expect them to abide by certain cultural norms or whatever and like we program to be them to be a mini version of us as much as we can, right?

Mark:

Well it’s help me understand the difference when you say programmed be difference between programmed and teaching or learning for you?

Justin:

Uh I’m using programming as a hyperbolic term for teaching and learning. Like I think no matter how much you try and teach or train your children, uh cor correctly, whatever that looks like, they will come out of being a child with certain beliefs held only because it was given to them. That’s what I mean by programming. And I don’t mean the adults are doing the bad things. I’m just saying like that’s the nature of being a child is you adopt beliefs. They are programmed into you, you would take them in, and there’s no reason to to remove them or whatever or to question them. You’re a child, you just take it as true and you move on with your life, right?

Mark:

I would and I said just as I say it here, I still he heard that, but I was I was thinking about it from the aspect of What, in other words, as a parent, what I’m teaching is what I’m doing. If I’m teaching with my words, but my actions. aren’t the same, I’m I can see that as being a programming, if you will. Because I’m actually conveying that my words and my actions don’t have to align, which may actually be counter to what I may desire to teach. Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Mark:

And I so I I when I think about that difference, I think any area where I desire to teach something that’s different than my actions Um actually offering confusion.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Instead of programming

Justin:

and and

Mark:

or learning

Justin:

to kind of get back to what we we’re talking about why this matters uh is again, no m no matter how gr good a job you do as a parent, your child will come to a place when they’re no longer a child and they have to figure out what the heck do I believe.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

What the heck do I agree with. you know, and figure out what parts of the programming they keep, what parts they discard.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know w how to reprogram, right? In some cases I’m not who I thought I was. I’m actually different or whatever. Um and so that that time that you’re referring to, right? The the young adult period is when all of that crazy stuff’s happening. That twenty year old version of me, that’s when all that’s happening, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And it is a hard time because you’re figuring it all out and and figuring out what’s true, what’s not and sometimes you’re testing the waters to see, you know, I think about uh uh like drugs and alcohol, right?

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

It’s like I’ve been told my whole life these things are bad and dare to say no and all that. Well what’s the harm? Some I wanna see, you know, and so it’s so easy to try it and and and and go down that road because it’s like My parents were wrong about this thing. Why wouldn’t they be wrong about this thing?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um, and and that’s the whole thing, uh coming back to integrity I would want them to understand, me to understand that The actions that you do aren’t aren’t what define you, right? And so

Mark:

What do you mean by that?

Justin:

What I mean is if you if you drink alcohol or you you you try drugs Like I would encourage you not to do that, especially the illegal, you know, way or whatever. Uh but if you do it, it doesn’t mean you now are that person.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And It’s such uh who we are is not defined by the actions that we’re doing or the people that we hang out. out with or all those things, which is what you were kind of saying. Like we tend to become whoever it is in whatever setting. And what I would want to be understood is that that’s not required.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You can rethink. You can go, is this who I am? No, it’s not. I won’t do that again.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know And I can do that at thirty-eight years old. Right. I can lose my temper at my kid, which happens sometimes, right? And I can go, that’s not who I want to be. I don’t want to do that again again.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And that’s the same you know I mean it’s it’s not that different um than those situations. Hopefully that makes sense when it’s

Mark:

Yeah, that makes sense. And that’s why I ask I guess I’m I’m just thinking about it from why this is important and how we want to yeah. Because like you were you were saying, it’s fundamental or foundational.

Justin:

Yeah. Hm.

Mark:

And I think, you know, being able to understand that our value is also important there. And we can tend to we we might sometimes lose sight of that in the midst of and I guess that’s what makes it important. and and and why it matters because we’re thinking about it from a developmental foundation.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Over time.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Which we’re kind of jumping around a little bit. That’s okay. Yeah. It gets me into the question about ’cause you said over time. M one of the questions we have How do you get integ integrity? Like you can’t just you know, walk into the general store and fill up a bottle of integrity, right? Yeah.

Mark:

Five gallon bucket full of give me a five gallon bucket full of integrity. I need it today.

Justin:

Right, right.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think it it for me, integrity, I think, is like Well, it’s a learning, but I think in some ways it’s it’s like an instrument. Because I think we learn how to do something by playing the wrong note, making mistakes, and then being able to recognize, oh wow, that didn’t sound quite like I wanted it to sound. And and being able to, because I don’t think I think it can be a misconception to think that I can just choose to have integrity. integrity and I will instantly have it. It’s a like it’s an instantaneous process. Because I think integrity is something that’s like like trust. It’s built over time through a process and I demonstrate it even when or especially when the stakes are high or the it may be very uncomfortable

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To demonstrate, but that’s how I know kind of to the degree when I learned it, how or to the degree that I’ve learned it is when I demonstrate it regardless. of what consequences I may face for having integrity.

Justin:

That’s good. You don’t just walk on the stage and play that hard piece, right? Um and same with integrity, like those difficult times are when you you when the proof is comes out, right? Like that you have integrity or you don’t.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But you don’t you don’t walk onto that stage and prove your integrity. You practiced it. In the little things. You know, and so like with music, you’re sitting in your room, no one’s paying attention, and you’re just going over that one part over and over. It doesn’t sound pretty, no one wants to hear that, you you know practice that one you know progression there five hundred times. No one wants to hear that.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

But it’s th that five hundred times that says when you get up on that stage, I can do that. this and do it well, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And integrity is very much like that where how do you get it? Well you start today and you don’t stop you know, like and you practice it in the little things. Um, you yeah, I don’t th I don’t I think it’s inaccurate to think you can practice it in the hard things because if you’re if you don’t have the the the strength from the conditioning when those hard things come, you’ll buckle. I mean it’s natural, it’s human. It’s it’s the nature of things, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um so

Mark:

and I even think about it from that th from, you know, the definitions of int integrity, you know, integral, one. I think about the two circles coming together as close as they can be to be one.

Justin:

Integrated

Mark:

Yes, to where I think about the 500 times that I’ve played a segment of that song or that music, that piece, to be able to play it once in its fullness. And I think, you know, that’s a that’s a definition of integrity is that wholeness that I’m not divided. But yeah, I’ve been divided or I’ve played a divided section enough to say, okay, this is what integrity looks like. And I can I can tend to, I’m not saying this in a judgmental fashion, but I can tend to see it at times in my own life, and I can tend to see it in others by the wholeness that I see.

Justin:

That’s a really good point because I think if you’re not practicing integrity, it’s difficult. to see a lack of it in others, which is can contribute to that the this pain cycle of pain, right? Like I’m around people who don’t have the best character, which causes me not to have the best character, which causes me to make bad choices, which puts me even more, you know, in like that kind of that cycle. Yeah, and it’s what what comes first chicken or egg? I don’t know. I think you do both, right? Like you try and separate from You know, those that will bring you down, that’s a key important thing. Um, but also practicing being who you’re meant to be around those people. Right? And like

Mark:

And even surrounding myself with people who I know

Justin:

are

Mark:

have integrity.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Versus people that I might not be able to trust. Yeah. And yeah. There again it becomes almost I hang around people who model it for me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s another way that I learn it.

Justin:

And and I would say if if if you if you don’t have a strong sense of integrity, you may not be able to see a lack of it very well. But it’s not that difficult to see it when it’s done well. Like, even when if you don’t have strong integrity, everyone knows who’s trustworthy. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like even if I’m not trustworthy and I I’m shifty and I don’t show up when I say ish and I I cheat p people out of their money or whatever. I know that guy has integrity. And I know if I want something and I want to trust somebody in a transaction, I’ll go to that guy. Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So even if you’re struggling with like I don’t know if these people are good for me or whatever, at least like you say, you can surround yourself with people that that are exhibiting that. You can seek out those types of relationships. Um the other thing I really like that you’re saying about playing the instrument and practicing is sometimes you make you know, you you play it wrong or you make mistakes or whatever. And that that’s kind of what I was trying to say earlier. Uh is practicing involves some ugliness, involves some bad choices or whatever. Uh and I don’t know if choices are the right term and t uh thing in terms of practicing, but um I guess that’s kind of what I’m saying. It’s like if you go to the bar this weekend with your friends from college and you realize this doesn’t really align with who I want to be. Again, that’s practicing. That’s that’s that’s going, oops, wrong note, let me try again.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Right? Or maybe you’re able to exhibit your integrity in that setting. I don’t know, I can’t speak for that, but I I can say, like you said, surrounding yourself with people who have integrity versus not is gonna produce that integrity uh more reliably.

Mark:

And I think in hearing what you’re saying, I also want to add that I don’t sit here myself recognizing that I haven’t messed up at times in integrity And and in some ways I have probably learned more from when my integrity has been lacking. Then or how important integrity is by doing it wrong and experiencing that disappointment in other people you know, when it’s like, oh you can’t trust Mark for that. You know, or oh, Mark said this. Uh and I th and I and I think about it even, you know, especially where my kids are concerned. concerned you know how important that is. And and for you, can you can you think of a moment in your time where it’s like In that moment, integrity became something you desired to acquire regardless of what it cost.

Justin:

Yeah, so um this gets very personal for me, but um, you know, as a teenage boy or whatever, I looked at pornography pretty regularly. And I would say I was addicted to it. And it got to a point where I mean this is why this is such a passionate topic for me. I there was two versions of me. There was the version who I knew I was, the person who couldn’t say no, and then there was a version I pr projected, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I didn’t know how to align those things. I had no I didn’t have the tools or understanding or training or what what have you to figure out how do I make these things become one. You know, and it wasn’t until just before we got married and my wife basically challenged me to say, hey, do you struggle with pornog pornography? was essentially the question. And in that moment I had a choice of whether to cover it up or whatever. You know, just do just do what most guys do. And I’d like to say I uh was too smart for that. I’m I I I’m not taking that credit. I think it was God’s grace in my life. But I was honest with her and I I confessed my struggles to her, knowing that if I didn’t, our future marriage could be jeopardized by my a addiction, my habit. Um also knowing that if I was honest with her, that could also jeopardize our relationship. Like she might not want to be with someone who’s like that. And at that moment, that was the first time I’d ever shared the truth of who I really was completely with another person. And the freedom that that brought. Well, first I’ll say she was very gracious. She forgave me. She she bowed to help me in our marriage and to be a partner in that. And that’s A huge part of this equation, of course, God’s grace on my life through that situation. But through that, I understood the value and the freedom that comes from smashing those two versions of myself into one and the value of confession, the value of accountability. And so a big part of integrity for me that helps me to maintain integrity and practice integrity and grow in integrity is accountability on a you know a regular basis. where I meet with people and I confess where I’m being wrong, you know, and saying this is these are things I want to work on. Um, if it wasn’t for that, then I would start to split again I’m fairly certain, right? Because I’m always wanting to be this this better version of myself. That’s not gonna change. That’s an important part of growth, I think. Or it’s just desiring to be a little bit better than you are, you know? But I’m never gonna be able to achieve that if I’m not measuring how I am. And that’s a a big part of what accountability is. But anyway, that moment in time was where, you know, the difference between having two versions of myself and then one understood by someone else, completely integrated, the value of that was fully understood. Um now obviously I was still had many years to come of being a young twenty-something and sure and not not exhibiting integrity in many other ways. And learning that that same benefit of integrity in the area of sexual integrity could also bring freedom in all these other areas of my life. you know, whether it’s comparing to others or um you know just approval addiction, you know, all those things. So uh

Mark:

on that along that line um I’m recognizing that in your experience when you demonstrated integrity in that moment and Megan demonstrated acceptance, um that trajectory, if you will, went well , what what would you say? We’re fine. What would you say would what would you say to someone Who desires to demonstrate integrity, but when they tried it, it didn’t work well. They experienced, they they lost an opportunity. You follow me? I do

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

They were honest on a resume and they didn’t get the job. They were honest in an interview and What would you say to someone a d a young adult?

Justin:

Yeah. I mean, that’s hard. That’s that’s a hard thing to say, Well just do it anyway and have integrity and um I think to walk over to that their side and step into their shoes, I would think, I mean that’s what you’re getting at. Like, how is this possibly worth it? And at that point, you kind of just have to trust those who have come before, right? Like Who have said, I’ve done it both ways and having integrity is so much better, and here’s why. And that’s where those relationships come back into play. And so that would be my encouragement is if you’re in that situation, is to seek out a Mark Pratt, you know, or someone in your life who Is further along the journey than you are and they can say here’s why what you did matters. Here’s why what you did is important. And here’s why if you would make a different choice or change uh to to not have integrity in that area, here’s what likely will occur in your life. You know? Um I think that’s I think it’s a very difficult situation, but I do think having those relationships in your life are so important for that. It’s again, comes back to accountability, someone to say, here’s an objective perspective on what you’re going through and Uh yeah. What would you say to that? Or what what are your thoughts on that?

Mark:

Well it’s a and I and I think that’s what kind of brings it to mind is The fact that we will not integrity is learned over time because we will not, it’s not an instantaneous process. just because I’m demonstrating integrity in this moment doesn’t mean that I’ll suddenly find find the the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow instantaneously.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

And I think and I think being able to recognize there is a benefit, a long-term benefit. to demonstrating short-term integrity on a daily basis. And I don’t think I think it’s it’s kind of similar to planting anything.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

We don’t we don’t we plant an apple seed, but we don’t get uh an apple at the end of the day. And I think we can t as we continue to Plant the apple seeds of integrity in consciously making the small integritist choice. We plant an orchard over time, but we’re not gonna reap the benefits of that fruit instantaneously.

Justin:

Yeah It’s the reaping and sowing principle.

Mark:

Yes, precisely. And I think that’s that’s and I think that’s what makes the difference in my desire to demonstrate integrity, even if it doesn’t instantaneously pay off, that I recognize, yeah, there’s gonna be some some difficulty I’m gonna lose some friendships, you know, in that journey towards integrity. But yet there is a looking back, you know, it’s it’s the times when I demonstrated integrity that are more more beneficial even even though the short term didn’t make it seem so

Justin:

Yeah, and we when you ask the question, it just makes me think of like my own daughter. She’s fourteen years old, almost fifteen. And like there are some things, like in terms of integrity or or whatever, where it’s like I know I’m asking her some her to do something or to f believe something that she doesn’t yet have proof of in her life. Right? So like when I think of that person who’s just entering the workforce and the resume thing. whatever that situation it’s like it’s I can understand the difficulty because they don’t have the the past to look back on and say this works And so that’s to me that’s where it becomes difficult. It becomes much easier as you start reaping what you sow. Right? Either direction really. I mean if you if if if you uh sow the lack of integrity and you reap the consequences, it’s easier to go maybe I should do this right next time, although that doesn’t always happen either. But um and vice versa, like if you sow integrity in this situation and you continue to do it, you will see the benefits. There’s not a doubt in anybody’s mind, right? Um And I can certainly say from my own life, just seeing just the benefits of having integr of living out integrity. Now again, I don’t wanna be I don’t want this to be heard as someone who’s like stuffy shirt that whole thing. But as someone who consistently tries to be real. And so even in my own career, to be able to say, I can’t do that thing you asked me to do, I don’t know how to do it, but I’d like to learn, right?

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

That’s real. Like I don’t know how to do this thing. I’d love to be like, oh yeah, I got this or whatever, but I don’t I don’t know how to do it. But at the same time, you’re my boss, you want me to do it, so how can I It’s the little things like that. You know, and I see that so often in some of the younger guys in in my career, where I work and stuff, where it’s like they project that they can do more than they can thinking that somehow that buys them some credibility when really you borrow from future uh credibility, you know? And you don’t have it yet. And then when it cut turns out you can’t do the thing Well now it’s all gone. Like your credibility is below whatever it could have been. Yeah, you’re in debt, exactly. And uh and I’ve d I’ve lived through my period of that for sure. but kind of turning the corner to saying, you know what, it’s okay, I’m not perfect at everything and when I’m I’m gonna just be real I’ve seen the benefits of that in my career from from then till now, you know? And uh Yeah. ‘Cause number one, you seek out uh opportunities where you your integrity is appreciated. You know? It’s it’s usually a good uh guide it’s a it’s it helps guide you in away from bad opportunities and towards good opportunities because you’re not going to look for uh you know, like an Enron type of I mean I made that one up. I’m sure most people there didn’t have a clue that that was a thing. But I’m just saying like um your integrity will guide you to good opportunities because your integrity will be rewarded.

Mark:

So what’s the difference between integrity and wisdom as far as you’re concerned?

Justin:

Yeah, so I feel like integrity is kind of the practical outworking of having wisdom. Right? I feel like it’s very difficult to have integrity if you aren’t attaining wisdom or if you don’t have wisdom. Um I’m not sure they’re

Mark:

wisdom may tend to allow you to see the benefits of integrity.

Justin:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mark:

Over time.

Justin:

That’s very true, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing all those uh Insights on integrity. I mean really. Yeah.

Justin:

Like I said, it’s my hobby heart horse. Yeah, I was just

Mark:

I was thinking of that same phrase and then uh so as we wrap up What would you like what’s what’s your final thought on uh the importance of your hobby horse?

Justin:

Uh I mean I guess my thought would be that if you are struggling in this area of integrity and it can be any any any any end of this spectrum, right? It can be like I I talked about I struggle with pornography, you know. That could be that’s likely a large portion of our audience, all two of ’em You know? Uh I mean that’s a very common issue. Or it could be just at work, like you tend to fudge the numbers once in a while, or taxes, right? It’s like the government doesn’t deserve my money, so I’m gonna hide whatever. Like, it can be any number of things. What I would encourage you to do is just start trying integrity. Just just just try it. And keep I mean, you can’t just try it and then the neck like you said, the next day look in in the pot and say, Oh, there’s no plant you know, you you gotta let it grow. But start planting integrity and just see what happens. Because I guarantee you will reap benefits from it. It’s a guarantee

Mark:

That’s fair enough. The reaping and sowing.

Justin:

You don’t often get a guarantee on this podcast.

Mark:

Yes, indeed. So that’s how we see it

Justin:

I love it. Good job. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot click Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.