Justin:

Yes. You probably don’t want to listen to this with your small children because there may be some spoilers. Good point.

Mark:

Some adults though. Some adults.

Justin:

Yeah. Well, you know, at this point. If you haven’t heard the dissenting dissent dissenting opinions?

Mark:

Oh, dissenting.

Justin:

Dissenting, thank you. Dissenting opinions about Santa. I’m impressed that you’re listening to this podcast. That’s true. And also grateful and spoilers coming.

Mark:

Yes. We just we just want to make sure that we’re putting that out there to be uh

Justin:

That was good insight.

Mark:

I try. I try. Welcome to How I See It With me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. Morning, Justin.

Justin:

Good morning, Mr. Mark.

Mark:

How are you, sir?

Justin:

I am well.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yes. Um I don’t know. It will be quite a ways after. No, no, no. We’re posting this one soon. Yeah. So, happy anniversary.

Mark:

Hey, why thank you.

Justin:

Twenty-six years.

Mark:

Twenty-six years.

Justin:

Twenty-six years. Woo!

Mark:

Yeah. It’s been good.

Justin:

That’s awesome.

Mark:

Um uh Chris is actually, and I I realize maybe I shouldn’t even be saying this, Chris is actually

Justin:

Do you want me to pause you?

Mark:

Well, it’s gonna tell you a little bit about Chris. But uh which we normally keep confidential. But Chris is uh has officially been married half as long as she’s been alive.

Justin:

Okay

Mark:

So that’s kind of a cool milestone. I have to wait till next year.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But next year I will have been married half as half of my life, basically.

Justin:

cool.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s kind of interesting to think about from that context.

Justin:

It is. I’m trying to now I’m trying to figure out what that math works. Um I’m not going to do that. Next year for me.

Mark:

Will be our 27th And I’ll be 54.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So that that’s how the math works. No, I mean I know

Justin:

I get your math. I’m trying to figure out math for mine. I don’t want to figure that out.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

When did you how old were you when you got married?

Mark:

27.

Justin:

Oh, okay. So that’ll be actually sooner for me.

Mark:

Yeah, I had ten years, not you.

Justin:

Yeah. I think five. Six.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

Why are we doing math? It’s too early for that. Make it stop.

Mark:

We’re good for it. We’re gonna shift over. We’ll shift over soon. Okay, let’s shift over. But yes, thank you.

Justin:

Yeah. It’s awesome.

Mark:

It’s good. Yeah.

Justin:

Um, we are gonna talk a little bit about some Christmassy stuff because

Mark:

So we need to have our listeners be aware of age-appropriate listening because we may be talking about Santa.

Justin:

Oh, ho ho. We yes. You probably don’t want to listen to this with your small children because there may be some spoilers.

Mark:

Yes. That’s exactly what I was thinking about.

Justin:

Good point.

Mark:

Some adults though. Some adults.

Justin:

Yeah Well, you know, at this point if you haven’t heard the dissenting dissent dissenting opinions?

Mark:

Oh, dissenting.

Justin:

Dissenting thank you. Dissenting opinions about say it then I’m impressed that you’re listening to this podcast. That’s true. And also grateful and spoilers coming.

Mark:

Yes. We just we just want to make sure that we’re putting that out there to be uh

Justin:

That was good insight.

Mark:

I try.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I try. So

Justin:

I got a little

Mark:

bit of I I was a little leery on how to broach the subject with you to be perfectly honest, you know? It’s like man , I haven’t I haven’t officially broached this subject with Justin.

Justin:

This is very polarizing. Are you trying to say no? Alright, we’ll get to that in a minute.

Mark:

I’m just s I’m just sensitive.

Justin:

Yeah. All right, we got a a Christmas puzzle for you.

Mark:

Yeah?

Justin:

Yeah. I got joke first.

Mark:

My joke first?

Justin:

Yeah. Only if it’s

Mark:

What vehicle. What vehicle did the wise men drive?

Justin:

Cam camel I’m trying to camouflage?

Mark:

No.

Justin:

That isn’t making sense.

Mark:

It was a Honda. Because they arrived in one accord. You get it?

Justin:

That’s good. That’s that’s real good. I gotta put that one in the old memory banks.

Mark:

Well, don’t worry about it too much.

Justin:

They arrived in one accord.

Mark:

Yes, they arrived in one.

Justin:

Well done, Mark. Well done. Alright, so I’m gonna do a mad lib with you.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And you can’t look at the screen because I

Mark:

Ooh, okay. I won’t look at the screen.

Justin:

Alright, the first thing I need from you is a I can’t read it. Month.

Mark:

You want my glasses.

Justin:

Yeah. No, I’m good.

Mark:

Oh, December, of course.

Justin:

December.

Mark:

Yes. Anniversaries.

Justin:

We’re going real literal. Literal.

Mark:

That’s just the one that comes to my mind right now.

Justin:

That’s good. December, got it. Um, and a verb?

Mark:

Verb

Justin:

run. Run. Okay. And I need a place.

Mark:

I’m gonna go with Chicago.

Justin:

Chicago.

Mark:

It’s just fun to say.

Justin:

Chicago Yeah, I agree. All right. How about an adjective?

Mark:

Adjective. Kind.

Justin:

Kind, yes. Okay. And another place.

Mark:

It’s kind of adjective.

Justin:

Kinds.

Mark:

Okay, that’s yeah, I was thinking about that. But yes. Yeah, okay, I’m good with that. Yep.

Justin:

He ran he ran kindly. Doesn’t work, so it’s not an an adverb.

Mark:

Yes. Thank you. Nice job. I ‘m

Justin:

I mean maybe he did

Mark:

But either way.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Alright, let’s get to this. Uh where were we? I got uh I need another place.

Mark:

Need another place. Let’s go with Baton Rouge Are we are you should? That

Justin:

and rouge. Yeah, I’m losing my place. Alright. I need another adjective.

Mark:

Another adjective. Round.

Justin:

Round. Okay. Uh man, I could uh You

Mark:

want my glasses?

Justin:

No, it’s just that I don’t actually have the mad lib sheet, so I’m trying to figure out where I am using this puzzle. Um one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, three. But then you’ll see it.

Mark:

I can

Justin:

Alright, verb.

Mark:

Verb. Um let’s go with hit.

Justin:

Okay? And we need a noun.

Mark:

Noun sneaker.

Justin:

Oh good one. Uh another verb.

Mark:

Another verb. Jump.

Justin:

Jumped. Good one. Alright. Now we need a noun.

Mark:

A noun.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Candy bar.

Justin:

Good one. Alright. And we need an adjective.

Mark:

Adjective I’m gonna go with thin.

Justin:

Then I hope this is gonna be good. I hope there’s a big reveal for you guys. I’m trying to get it a little more out of the box. Alright, adjective.

Mark:

Adjective Um hairy.

Justin:

Harry. Thought you were gonna go boxy. Alright, color.

Mark:

Color turquoise.

Justin:

Oh. Good one. Trying to make me smell tur spelled turquoise. Okay. Uh adjective.

Mark:

Adjective is man, there’s a lot of those adjectives.

Justin:

There are.

Mark:

I’m gonna go Um slip, okay

Justin:

And verb. We’re almost done.

Mark:

Verb.

Justin:

Sorry, listener. We’re almost there.

Mark:

Rolled.

Justin:

Rolled. And now.

Mark:

Now chimney. No, I want to change that. Chimney’s too Christmassy. It’s coming to see how you I’m thinking this Christmas stuff.

Justin:

That’s okay. We can Mix it up. Chicago Christmas.

Mark:

I wanna go with a train.

Justin:

Train.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

That’s a good one. Um and two more ex an exclamation like

Mark:

Yo baby, yo baby, yo babe.

Justin:

Alright, I gotta write that down here I can’t wait to read this. Alright. And holiday.

Mark:

Holiday. This

Justin:

one you can be literal if you want.

Mark:

Let’s go with Christmas.

Justin:

Sorry, hey. Alright.

Mark:

Alright.

Justin:

We’re ready.

Mark:

I’m ready.

Justin:

Let’s try not to mess this up.

Mark:

Do you need me to read and then you fill in or you got it? Yeah, let’s do it that way. That’s a good idea. I can look at this now

Justin:

Every December

Mark:

we

Justin:

run

Mark:

to a tree. To a tree. We run to a tree.

Justin:

Chicago. That doesn’t make sense. Isn’t that place?

Mark:

I don’t know. I have to put my glasses back on. But either way, far away. Not just every

Justin:

yeah every December we run to a tree Chicago far away.

Mark:

Nice not just any

Justin:

kind

Mark:

Farm a

Justin:

round

Mark:

tree

Justin:

Baton Rouge. This this is a terrible

Mark:

You pick this. My my dad and I

Justin:

hit

Mark:

on to the

Justin:

sneaker

Mark:

to

Justin:

jump

Mark:

for the perfect

Justin:

Candy bar?

Mark:

Some people like them

Justin:

thin

Mark:

and

Justin:

hairy.

Mark:

And some like them

Justin:

tall

Mark:

and fat

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

We are searching for a tall and

Justin:

slipped

Mark:

one. Over there, I exclaimed. Dad, it’s over there. Off we

Justin:

rolled.

Mark:

Saw in hand to Uh

Justin:

yeah, I have one now. Uh let’s just say to roll.

Mark:

This year’s

Justin:

train

Mark:

down.

Justin:

Here’s your exclamation

Mark:

exclamation. Hubba hubba baby.

Justin:

No, yo baby, yo baby, yo babe. It’s Christmas finally.

Mark:

Nice job. Oh That was almost painful.

Justin:

That was I would dare say that was painful. We we might have to cut that hole thing. No, I’m gonna leave it. I’m sorry listeners. You’re gonna have to hear it. This is this is what we do for fun these days. Alright, so what are we talking about? Something about spoilers and spoilers saying uh

Mark:

So when you think of polarizing this time of year, oh polarizing.

Justin:

I think of the North Pole.

Mark:

Yes. Do you think of the North Pole?

Justin:

No.

Mark:

No.

Justin:

I mean, I guess. Christmas movies.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

There are.

Justin:

That have Santa in them.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

For obvious reasons.

Mark:

No doubt.

Justin:

That’s where the toy workshop is

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

So you gotta see it.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s what we’re talking about.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Christmas.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But not necessarily just Santa.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Because I think we can get

Justin:

what’s the other pole The

Mark:

South Pole, of course.

Justin:

And that’s where Jesus lives.

Mark:

Well, I

Justin:

uh

Mark:

never quite heard it that way, but uh Yeah.

Justin:

Those are the two poles that we’re talking about. Santa and Jesus. Although, mmm, you know, I would say they’re not necessarily poles in that they’re I think uh uh the polls that we’re likely w referring to is how we celebrate and the the focus and that ‘s

Mark:

where the focus begins.

Justin:

But I but I dare say they can be complementary.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think most families I know really strive to balance that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Uh

Mark:

and I think I think this time of year is always a good opportunity to reflect on how we balance.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, and I and I’m I’m looking back, thinking about it, you know, in the context of young family, young kids, you know, all the excitement and everything that go went along with that. And again, granted I think, you know, every couple, you know, who has kids needs to wrestle.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Or not, you know, probably does wrestle. with how involved yeah are we gonna make Santa into our you know Christmas season if you will

Justin:

and even

Mark:

and how do we go ahead.

Justin:

I was gonna say even with or without Santa. There’s also the balance of presents and how how many presents too many, how many is too little, how many afford them this year What will the kids think if we can’t afford them and we get fewer or whatever? Or wh are we spoiling them if we give ’em all these, you know, like the balance balance? Maybe balance is the key word here.

Mark:

Maybe

Justin:

in this season

Mark:

And I’m still thinking about it in the context of even, you know, the energy that is exerted for the perfect gift. You know? And I think, you know, that That’s a of course an opportunity where I think Jesus does need to come into the, you know, onto the scene of sorts.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

That, you know, yeah, this is and I yeah, I guess that’s where I’ve been As I’ve been thinking about it, you know, just personally lately, you know, about that difference as time goes by and that where Santa fits in or has the ability, we have the ability to fit him in. You know, and yeah, do we lose sight, or how often do I lose sight, of Jesus in the midst of

Justin:

Hmm.

Mark:

The Christmas season. That’s kind of where I’ve been at.

Justin:

That’s good. Yeah. I would love to hear a little just a little snippet of some of your I guess nostalgic favorite moments up in hi you know, with Christmas or like some of the things that stand out, um, and I’d like to s you know, I’m happy to share mine as well, but just like What are some things as you’re growing up and you know, it’s you know, been twenty six years married now.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And twenty some of those years obviously a parent and yeah. Prior to that, you know, a child yourself and you know, just like What are some things about Chris that Christmas that stand out to you to be just joyful moments or does that make sense?

Mark:

Oh yeah, it makes perfect sense. I actually

Justin:

it’s the peaks in the timeline, I guess.

Mark:

Yeah, and I guess As I think and as I was thinking back, you know, as I about childhood, um of course there were the seasons, the Christmases with the uh, you know, the big items that I remember You know, and I think initially to be honest with you, initially, if you were to ask me about Christmas, Christmas was about my families. You know, we would always we would always literally you know when I was growing up spend Christmas Eve with my mom’s parents. My grandparents, but yeah, on my mom’s side And I think, you know, just being able to, they lived on a farm. So there was something about all of the family. gathering together to do chores, you know. And you know, it even kind of brought that whole because we were feeding cows before we opened gifts, you know, so it kind of brings that whole manger scene. to mind, you know, and I can still remember, you know, at times going up in the the haymal to throw down hay Yeah. And it’s just it’s just cold up there because all that dampness is up there from the cows below, but it’s cold outside, so there’s no heat. And it just it just really kind of had that ability to take

Justin:

so sensory, you know. Yes

Mark:

the smell of hay and you can hear the cattle lowing and you know it really was kind of a a neat opportunity. as a kid. And then there was this family and I can still remember, you know, the snow, of course, in the in the north. You know, I can remember the Christmases where it actually snowed Christmas Eve. And how that would kinda add to the you know. I remember there was one, you know, year where it came down and it was like snowball size snowflakes, you know. It was like all you know, of course once you touch them they pop up, but it was so Yeah, it was, you know, and so that that’s kind of cool. And then of course, you know, so those are memories and you know, and I remember Looking back, I remember gifts and recognizing how much my parents had to sacrifice or scrimp, you know, growing up. We didn’t know that, you know, we didn’t have much.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But, you know, it was only later on and only in comparison to looking now, you know, how much, you know, blessed, how blessed we are.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That kind of thing. So I’m I’m mindful of those gifts. And um So yeah, that’s kinda but family was definitely a part of that.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good.

Mark:

And being able to include, and I think, you know, for us for and then that became Chris and I you know, and our own little traditions that we bring into it. You know, and I I remember we when we built our first house in New York State, um We we were able to move in. We got moved in like on the 19th of December. Wow. You know, to be able, and I can still remember You know, we had this big cathedral ceiling and you know, two-story cathedral ceiling in the front porch and we went and got this seemed like a 14-foot-tall Christmas tree. But it was he it was big. It was big and we were so excited to bring it into the house that we brought it in and you know and I shook it off on the front porch, but there was still snow on it, you know, and we had this brand new floor. You know, that we had uh you know, hardwood floor and it and it started leaking, you know. Oh yeah. Drip dri to where we ended up having to get towels and yeah, you know, and a whole nine yards. But that was is still a fun memory. It was still a fun memory, you know, that that tree just, you know. It was like a tropical rainforest, you know, drip, drip, drip off a off a yeah. But yeah, those were those were fun. And then, you know, the kids growing up and you know, and we when we moved to North Carolina A lot of our Christmases had have well, we’ve tried to be home on Christmas Day, but I still remember some s where somewhere we’d travel to places and spend time as a family like at you know Great Wolf Lodge or or something like that to try and make the you know, Christmas Christmas special for our kids even though we might be on the road, you know, that kind of thing. And and John, of course, is born that his birthday is the 28th. So trying to be able to, you know, have that separate from Christmas too

Justin:

in December as well.

Mark:

But yeah, it’s it’s

Justin:

Christmas babies My sister is also December 9th.

Mark:

Oh, okay. So yeah, that’s kinda so yeah, that’s that’s

Justin:

her name is Holly.

Mark:

Oh Wow.

Justin:

Should have named you Holly.

Mark:

No. I wouldn’t.

Justin:

Is there a man version of that?

Mark:

I don’t know.

Justin:

Holland.

Mark:

Holland? Yeah. Yeah, call Noelle doesn’t even work, does it? No.

Justin:

That’s my uh niece’s name.

Mark:

Oh wow. Holly Holly’s daughter is Noelle.

Justin:

It was born December 8th.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Wow. Is there any mistletoe in the family?

Justin:

Not yet.

Mark:

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Justin:

I’m looking forward to them here in the

Mark:

What about you

Justin:

Yeah, well but right before we do that, I had a specific question I wanted to ask. Do you have a specific memory, good memory, of a Santa themed, a Santa themed memory? Red white, red and white, you know, candy cane stripes, that whole world. And or do you have specific Jesus themed memory, right? Like the the manger and the, you know, nativity scene and kind of you know, they’re kind of like those poles, right? When you think about

Mark:

ironically, my probably most vivid memory of Santa was the in the church growing up.

Justin:

Wow.

Mark:

We yeah it is. We would have on for the part of the Christmas program in the church, they would have Santa come in and I still remember receiving like an orange

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

From Santa. And you know, and that whole aspect of, you know, at that time, me trying to figure out, okay, who’s Santa?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Who is this person you know in this role as you as I may, you know, to where I can remember that.

Justin:

So you were past the just like, oh yeah, Santa and there’s Jesus. Yeah.

Mark:

Not yeah. Definitely past. I I can’t remember a time, I really can’t remember a time that I held fast to the Santa notion, I’ll be honest with you.

Justin:

Yeah. I can’t either, but um yeah.

Mark:

And even, you know, for Chris and I it was more a matter of, yeah. And and uh it’s not that my parents didn’t do, you know, the Santa gifts and Chris and I, even with our kids, you know, the stocking stuff or stuff.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That was all Santa.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

But it wasn’t anything that we definitely promoted promoted, you know, and it was kind of a Yeah, I’m just looking back.

Justin:

Low-key.

Mark:

I can’t I’m not saying we didn’t have ever have our pictures as a family taken with Santa, but I can’t remember any. But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, okay, that’s fair. And then

Mark:

and then the the Jesus uh nativity part, when you put the nativity, I can remember, you know, as a young adult you know, being part of a live nativity, you know, which is kind of a neat thing, you know, especially in the north you’re kind of freezing, but it’s hot chocolate. And you know, there’s You know, you i it’s good.

Justin:

Again, all those sensory memories stand up.

Mark:

Yeah, but I that’s what I’m saying. I think I think growing up on the farm you know, on my grandparents’ farm, that that spending Chris that would probably be my most reflective Jesus moments, you know At Christmas time.

Justin:

Because you were in a barn?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. What made you think of that? Like your brain at that time was thinking these things. That’s cool.

Mark:

Having heard those stories of, you know, Mary and Joseph and the main plan and Jesus, you know, and you know, I just, you know, cause there it ‘s My grandparents, of course, you know, in front of the cows there’s a concrete trough.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

You know, that and that’s you know, that’s where you fed ’em.

Justin:

That’s where you

Mark:

and you know, and it’s like, man

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think about that. You know, granted, we think of the, you know, the conjured up kind of cr cross buck wood slap thing that we, you know, think of as a manger. But for me, I guess looking at it in that form, that really had a crude feel to it.

Justin:

Yeah. Well, because the the cross butt thing that we’re used to seeing is representative of Jesus at this point. It doesn’t represent a food trough for animals to us.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

As we like it’s ingrained for centuries that that’s a Jesus carrier.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

So it has this quaint, beautiful look to it. But really it’s not Yes and no, yeah. No, what I’m saying is that it it’s

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

We’ve we can’t even disconnect that picture to go back to its rudimentary form. And that’s

Mark:

the way it’s a good thing.

Justin:

Oh Yeah. You know, that’s that’s that’s cool.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, we need to replace that picture with just a concrete slab or something, you know, a bucket.

Mark:

But yeah, that’s what it’s l that’s what it’s like, you know. Yeah. And it’s so it was neat to to think about it from that that cold yet warm, you know, as the cow, you know, the animals create the heat in that building. You know, it’s not like you know, modern day buildings where oh it’s a little chilly in here. You know, let’s turn up the heat.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I just that’s that’s kind of a stuff that comes to mind for me. How about you?

Justin:

Yeah, um, no, just thinking about it, there’s I just always remember joy at Christmas You know, ’cause you know, I’ve we’ve talked about depression pr before in this podcast. You know, that that’s kind of a thing that I struggle with throughout my whole life at some point, you know.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I never remember that really being a thing at Christmas time. I just always remember joy. And My picture of it, kind of that fuzzy picture as you look back in your past, includes all of it. The red and white and the you know, the the Santo Ho ho ho and the Jesus and the manger. It’s it’s like It all counts, you know what I mean?

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

And I don’t remember the like the emphasis of one overshadowing the emphasis emphasis of another. It’s kind of they both were very important or, you know, pretty key parts of my upbringing in terms of just the joy part and the fun.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Um, but again, I also don’t remember ever quote unquote believing in Santa, but just the I you know, kind of that whole view and picture of that.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, uh ho ho ho culture.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Whatever.

Mark:

Yeah. You know

Justin:

the whole whole culture.

Mark:

There’s a there’s a hashtag.

Justin:

That is a good hashtag Uh yeah, so like in yeah, and then specific memories I have. I mean, I have good memories of Christmases and then I have some that are aren’t as good. I remember one Christmas uh because of finances or poor planning or whatever it was, our Christmas tree was our uh lazy boy chair. This is black like pleather, you know, fake fake leather like uh pivoting lazy boy chair thing. So we just put the presents on there and some of the presents were not quite wrapped great. It was like just a not a well planned Christmas, if you know what I mean.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I just remember thinking You know, this isn’t how it’s supposed to be. Yeah, so I think that’s kind of the bummerist, you know, memory that I have, but at the same time I was it What didn’t feel that bad. But just looking at that chair going, That’s not a tree.

Mark:

Yeah. We can imagine all we want, but that’s not a tree.

Justin:

It’s not working. Yeah.

Mark:

Wow. Um

Justin:

but then I remember another Christmas um I got uh my first mountain bike. And prior to this, you know, I had always had hand-me-down bikes. In fact, the one I rode the most was a banana seat bike.

Mark:

Oh sure.

Justin:

And even at that age, like, banana seat bikes weren’t no not a thing anymore. Like you could find ’em, right? And that’s kind of So mine kinda had a classic look to it. I kinda liked it. It’s kinda had uh

Mark:

C bar on the back, a lot of tricks.

Justin:

Yeah, and it was orange and had like orange wrap around the handlebar. It was kinda cool. Like I was like that’s kinda retro cool, so I I didn’t mind it. Did that

Mark:

have the little tassels coming out the end of the handle? Oh good.

Justin:

No. If I did I would have cut ’em off ’cause you know. But no, I remember I got a mountain bike and it had been s you know, snowed a few times that year and then it had uh frozen rain on top of the snow. So I actually took my bike out in my yard and I rode her on top of the snow.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

And I had a f Flip and blast. I bet you like it was the best time. I bet you got every once a while you’re tired sinking and almost fly over the handlebar.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I just remember that being the best thing ever, just riding my bike in the middle of winter, out on top of the snow, you know, the frozen snow is pretty that was that was a fun thing.

Mark:

I do remember a new sled Yeah.

Justin:

Oh yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. It was the early 70s and and still riding that on top of the crust that came. Yeah. So where you get a eight inch snow and then you know it would melt and you’re you’d get a rainy and it would get cold.

Justin:

Yeah. Harden down. Yeah. You’d basically be sledding on ice.

Mark:

The runner sleds. They were they were yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I love those things.

Justin:

They were tillers.

Mark:

They were

Justin:

they were good.

Mark:

They were fast. They were fast. As long as you were not on cinders or didn’t break through the crust, you were good to go.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah

Justin:

Yeah. So yeah, I guess plenty of good mem memories. I also remember, um, in terms of gifts go gifts just always being slightly underwhelmed because uh you know, I had these expectations about, oh, if they just get that, you know.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

It’s a pretty narrow list And the chances someone’s gonna read your mind get that, you know. So that’s one thing like I can just recognize over the years, dropping the those expectations to literally saying, I don’t care, you know, in a good way. Um, but at the same time, you know, some at we’ve kind of morphed a little bit. Culturally, I

Mark:

think

Justin:

where everyone’s got has a list and you send someone your list and you make it easy on the person getting gifts, you know Which is great for the person buying gifts. I feel I feel better for them not having to like guess for but it certainly loses some of the charm of, you know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But at the same time it’s like It’s not like anyone’s buying someone the perfect gift. You’re always you know, it’s like y you have this idea of a perfect gift and it goes back to loving, which is what I think you’re gonna love, Mark Yeah, it might not hit home for you the the way it would hit home if I got that gift, but sure. Usually we get from a place of, oh man, I would love that, so I bet they you know

Mark:

Hmm, I would love that. I don’t know.

Justin:

Yeah. I don’t know you didn’t.

Mark:

I and I drink

Justin:

that I know some bad gifts. Most people do try and get gifts based on what they think that person will like. I yeah, I’m not that that I don’t think that’s true that they’re always given from a placement. But I I do think it’s really hard to hit the nail on the head. No

Mark:

good no doubt.

Justin:

And so the more excited you are about giving this gift and you’re like waiting to see him open it, and it’s like There’s so much pressure and y you better like it, Mark. You know, it’s like, Well, this is cool. I have three of these but or I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Or like I really like my old one that’s half broken, but I guess I’ll use this new one, whatever, you know what I mean? Like

Mark:

It creates some of those those awkward moments of recognizing. And I think that can be part of that downside. It’s like shucks. I thought that would be better.

Justin:

Yeah. And

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Cause I I I I really know some I mean I’m fortunate because, you know, I have a lot of good gift givers in our family.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Yeah. I’m just I’m

Justin:

always pleased or not you know like

Mark:

open your gifts and like

Justin:

wow nice job like

Mark:

Yeah yeah and the way that they think of me and I g I re I can respect the fact that I’m not that good. at gift giving in comparison to those people.

Justin:

I got to. Yeah.

Mark:

And so

Justin:

gift giving is hard.

Mark:

Yeah. And

Justin:

zombie.

Mark:

Well I think it takes a definite amount of time and energy, which I’m not sure were always good. at investing.

Justin:

That’s true.

Mark:

But I think those people that are good at it are good at it, but yet they also take the time and the energy and they’re they’re willing to search a little bit and uh oh maybe you know and think about it and until they come to the aha moment

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

you know as I watch those people

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

you know I’m recognizing that I think in some ways that’s what they do.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And they’re observers.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, so gifts are that’s another potentially polarizing subject in regards to this season, but Um I was trying to think of the Santa versus Jesus. And again, I like I said, my memories just kind they kinda blend together in terms of the Christmas movies we had watched and just the joy and fun that that would bring and then the nativity events that we have at church and the joy abundant that would bring as well.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But I also really have always embraced and loved kind of the sobering nature of the nativity story when they you know when you come to those sobering moments and those sobering songs kind of the you know um softer quieter silent night type song. I always appreciated that And looking back, it’s not like I was thinking this, but I just really value that side of Christmas too.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

As well as the ho ho ho, jingle, jingle, jingle. You know, like the loud and in your face and joyful and boisterous. It was like There’s such a nice balance in the way I grew up with that balance culture of the Santa and you know, that whole side of things as well as the Jesus side of things and the Timothy and I I think I don’t know, I think it just happened to be perfect for my um

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

potential way of thinking, uh, the way that I grew up in terms of that balance. To have both. A lot of joy but also have some sob sobering, quiet, reflective. You know, just that balance. I don’t know.

Mark:

Yeah And I think that for me, uh this Christmas I’ve been more mindful of even that balance. Not that I’m getting it right. But when we think when I think of the Christmas story, I’m I’m so mindful, I guess, of you know, we went to uh a a service the other evening and they they had, you know uh a person recite kind of uh a shepherd’s story.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

You know, and how he came, you know, how, you know Jesus came, you know, first to the shepherds, the lowly people, yeah, you know, to announce who he was. And you know, and I think that’s kind of a polarizing dynamic of the first Christmas. You know how and there was this whole angel army that showed up, you know, when he arrived. And I think of that balance in the context of the history of it too, that within two years there were, you know, also a whole bunch of people who lost their firstborn child. You know, in that context of Christmas, you know, that

Justin:

joyful.

Mark:

They weren’t. They weren’t. There wasn’t joy in that because there was You know, there was a battle taking place.

Justin:

Infant infanticide.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Crazy.

Mark:

And I think, you know, at times we can lose sight of that. in the in the Christmas story.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Or I lo I should say I lose sight of that. But this year it’s kind of been a little more. I think this year’s been a little different just because of, you know, the way I think about it, you know, this will be the first year, you know, without Chris’s dad. You know, and how that has changed Christmas. And I, you know, have people People that I work with, you know, who have lost significant relatives and I think about them and I think about that balance uh like we’re talking about, that there’s a there’s a tremendous joy And yet at the same time there’s there’s joy around those memories, but then those memories create that sadness and that longing for that individual that is no longer here. You know, and uh it just that How there is still such a diversity of about uh you know a polarizing feeling that can be connected with this the season.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think from my perspective, that’s what brings, you know, the importance of Jesus for to the season. To be able to recognize how, yes, he understands both sides and is there to comfort us or to enjoy with us. in the midst of the joy and in the midst of the sorrow, you know. And I and I think, you know, not to be, you know, mean spirited, but you know, I think that’s where the difference for me comes from, you know, this this Jesus presence versus this holy

Justin:

unrelenting. Ho ho ho this yeah uh uh What is it? Toxic joy?

Mark:

Yes, I hear where you’re coming from.

Justin:

Toxic positivity? No.

Mark:

But that aspect of December 26th. You know, that okay, Santa’s back up north now , taking all next year to prepare for the ride again, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s like No , Jesus is here on the 26 in the in the loneliness or in the in the sorrow or in the joy, in the quiet. Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good. I

Mark:

and I think that it it’s kind of interesting because it brings me to another I can s I can remember as times as a kid you know, walking from, you know, building to building in the wintertime and looking up at the stars and thinking about the star of Bethlehem too. You know, that was you know, on those cold, crisp winter nights, it’s like those stars are just as bright, you know. I can always remember you know, my grandmother would, you know, point out Orion to me, you know, and we’d look for the Big Dipper and, you know, the North Star and you think about those guys journeying in, you know, two years or so, give or take.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s just kind of a I need context to add to that.

Justin:

Did you look for Santa in the sky while you were thinking of the star?

Mark:

I I can’t say as if I did. Yeah, I’m still, you know, we s we still watch Elf as part of you know a family. you know, tradition type stuff. But

Justin:

that’s way to bring Christmas cheers. Singing loud for all to hear,

Mark:

Yes, that’s what they say. I’m not sure of it, but that might be an alphism.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. From the movie. But yes.

Justin:

Great movie

Mark:

Yes. And

Justin:

yeah, it’s very

Mark:

What about you, the Jesus part for

Justin:

Yeah, so uh well that first thing I was thinking about when you were saying you know, Jesus is still for you and

Mark:

s

Justin:

the joy and the whatever is, you know.

Mark:

On the twenty sixth and therefore.

Justin:

Or even leading up to it. Like, I guess just the point like Christmas is joyful because of his coming to a dark world

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

And so that is true always, universally, no matter your situation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And I feel like, um I wanna say in the last five years maybe, I feel like it’s kind of been a theme that I’ve been hearing s somewhat regularly where we become more sensitive to those who are having a tough time in Christmas. And so we talk about that. Like at church where we’re talking about we talk about that in different contexts where it’s like I reck we recognize Christmas might not be a joyful season for you, so we talk about how to bring it back to joy or whatever. Um and that’s Seems like a new concept to me within five years. Again, I’m just making that number up. Where it kinda was just almost that toxic positivity, like joy and joy to the world and all just happy, happy, happy. Where I feel like we’re balancing that more now. I don’t know why, I don’t know, you know, you know what’s that word? Uh the spirit of the time?

Mark:

Zeitgeist.

Justin:

Zeitgeist, yeah. I don’t know why it took place in the Zeitgeist that kind of brought that to the culture. But But I’m thankful for it because not not not to be downers to those who are having joy, but to remember that there are those who aren’t. but also to s c point them to the source of hope.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And even when you think about that situation, you know, when Jesus was born into this very dark world, this oppressive regime was over, you know, the the land and even the death of all the infants to try and kill Jesus.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Was only emphasizing the dark that needed this light.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So when these shepherds and these angels showed up, you know, s especially the shepherds, those who were in the culture at the time, even the wise men there recognizing like this world is so dark and if you represent the lightness that we think you do, like my goodness. Right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think that same sentiment can continue for all eternity. Right? Like for those who don’t know Jesus and don’t know of that, but to come to that manger and go, if you represent the light that it seems like they’re saying you do in this dark time where everyone’s joyful but I’m not or whatever or you know, someone I love died and it this season no longer means to me what it used to. If you represent what I understand you to be I can still find my hope and my joy in you. And I think you can’t you can’t do that with Santa. Of course. You know what I mean?

Mark:

Oh, I agree.

Justin:

Um Now don’t get me wrong, you know, there’s nothing wrong with a little pep and happiness that can lift your spirits. I’m not saying that, but I am saying there is the truest version of joy and hope is found in Jesus.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know?

Mark:

And I and I think that’s where my heart I you as you were sharing that uh that worship song you guys did at CR is Anne Wilson that you know what what was it it was that

Justin:

I’d have to look it up.

Mark:

It’s no, I don’t really have to look it up. But it was about the fact even though it’s Christmas.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that we can have this joy even if it’s even During Christmas, you know, and it because we don’t have to and I think there is a good awareness that

Justin:

I want to read one of the lyrics to it in it ’cause it’s just and keep talking about it. No, no, that’s fine.

Mark:

I understand what you’re doing. And but I w I’m thinking about it in that context because I think when we get it out of balance and you know and the gifts and the busyness and the the ho ho ho you know become the focus, I think there is a a down shift. There is a emptiness that comes into our hearts that it’s like, oh shucks. I I I put too much focus on that this year. And I’ve been, you know, I think it’s I’ve I think I can honestly say I’ve been there, you know to where, you know, I’ve gotten it mixed up. But I think as I’ve, you know, maybe aged to a certain degree It’s like that that reality of yeah, Jesus’ 365 and you know 66 in a leap year, you know, that kind of thing always there. And regardless, and I think, you know, even the the unique part, you know, I’ve been thinking about even from the context of anniversary ‘Cause you know, the you know, the this this past

Justin:

happy anniversary

Mark:

but this past year, you know, has had you know, you know, two years has had difficulty, you know, John being out of the States, you know, just these trials, you know, his father and you know and being Being able to recognize, yeah, this is this is you know Jesus is faithful.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don’t I’m not I’m not talking with Santa Claus on June 26th, you know. And saying, Okay, help

Justin:

That’s when you’re supposed to be writing your letters. Yeah.

Mark:

Starting I suppose. But you know, help me with this or you know, keep my son safe in a you know, foreign country, you know, and you know, just that kind of thing. I’ve just really been I I think that’s where I’ve been and I just I feel for people who aren’t able to or don’t imagine

Justin:

this whole picture.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. It’s just, you know, well that’s just a part of the sea another part of the season, you know. Church, I mean Christmas and Easter, you know, these are these two times a year I go to church, you know, but the relationship is available all year round. And you know, that’s that’s that’s

Justin:

Yeah and it’s in there in that mindset, right? Um Jesus is It’s equivalent to Santa and Easter Bunny. It’s kind of this once a year thing that’s kind of a quaint idea that makes you feel good, you know, whatever.

Mark:

But I liked it. I also liked what you shared uh the other evening too on the whole maybe it was Sunday morning.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

On, you know, the timeline split.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, anodomini type stuff you know, because of his birth. Mm-hmm. And I think, you know, when we think about it, well, when we can think about well, he was a good prophet or he was a good teacher or, you know, he was here. We’re not gonna deny that, you know he had uh a historical presence on the earth type thing, but when we’re not able to recognize there’s a personal relationship available because of that historical aspect I think, you know, that’s that’s where I I feel for people, especially this time of year, to be able to find the joy even in the darkness as the days are shorter and you know those kind of things. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s why desire

Mark:

to offer hope.

Justin:

That’s why I love the opportunity of Christmas being involved s significantly in church ministry. Is it’s kind of a it’s a really big opportunity for people to come through the doors looking for that joy, happy sin and ho ho ho. Sure. You know, Jesus added on top. And then to hear some of those truths of the peace of Christmas and the true joy and the true meaning of hope. And, you know, it’s just uh I I I think has always been throughout history as we celebrated Christmas an opportunity for, you know, believers to spread that truth and that joy and that love. And some a lot of and often So I was thinking about how two two sides of this where um Santa can draw us away from Jesus and also culture Um, but also redemption is a common theme, right? That’s uh what’s one of uh Jesus and God’s best characteristics is how they can redeem things and I also think that Santa has been redeemed by churches for years and years. You think about you like you said, growing up and there was Santa church. Well, for some people the draw was Santa. Right? And even in you know a lot of the big events that we have at at churches these days where it’s like come for the cocoa and the pajamas and you know whatever is Just the draw.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right? And because we’re so excited about this opportunity we have every year. to get you in the door with some joy, some fun, even cultural relevance or whatever, because we have we get to introduce you to the true meaning of Christmas and As cliche as that sounds, it’s such a wonderful time of year to be able to do that.

Mark:

No, it’s a it’s an interesting point because I can r I can remember as a child, you know, being in the Christmas production of sorts and I can still remember all the parents who would come for that one production. Yeah. Who you might not get to the church the rest of the year.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, because their child was in was a wise man. Their child, you know, I and I think about that in the in the light of what you’re saying.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, how yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and

Mark:

this is still about the redemption business.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Meaning he can take things that can be bad and use them for good. And I think that’s as cool. And I I’m not saying Santa’s bad. No. And that’s not my polarized viewpoint. I’m actually very happy with the complementary idea where um you know but like you were saying uh for those who that emptiness occurs, that’s what this season represents to a church is opportunity to Hey

Mark:

Hm you

Justin:

know how much this Santa side is fun? Well just imagine, you know, the truth, you know, some some true hope and some true joy.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Let’s talk about that. And it’s an opportunity that I think is pretty great.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um I was also thinking about um ’cause w you know, talking about Jesus and Santa how oh as we teach our children both.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And at some point we go, Well, the jig’s up. This one’s a fairy tale. Not this one though. You should you should keep believing this one, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think that is such an interesting I think that’s where uh Santa can become a tool of the dark side, right? Where it it is an opportunity to say, yeah, they’re both fairy tales and as you grow out of the Santa. You know, you’re thinking about your upbringing and how it’s like, well, you know, or not your up just it normal upbringing of like we celebrate Santa, he brings gifts. and whatever and they kind of trick us into Santa ‘s here, look, there’s crumbs from the cookies that he ate.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And then the next day we go to the nativity scene at church and we watch that production. And at some point they go, ha ha, Jig’s up. Santa’s not really real, but don’t spoil it for your sister. And they’re like, but we’re still going to the nativity. And and you’re like It feels like they’re in the same category. I c you know, I think a lot of people have come to that point of maturity to go, Santa’s not real and also this Jesus thing is also a fairy tale. But a lot more people believe this one, but come on guys. You know

Mark:

And I think that’s the part that I’ve I remember wrestling with early on is that that balancing the truth Of you know, Jesus is real. And even, you know, to promote the fairy tale of Santa, I always had that in the back of my mind, okay Is there gonna be anything else that I want to convey to my kids as truth? And granted, we chose to kind of let the kids have their perspective based on more so on culture, but I can’t say we did promote it with the gift type dynamic. But I was it was typically in the back of my mind, it’s like, okay, is there gonna come a day when I wanna convey a truth And it’s gonna get confused with this fairy tale. Is that is there anything else that my parents allowed me to believe and didn’t tell me is true? You know, that was Now I can remember that wrestling in that dynamic.

Justin:

As a child, you mean?

Mark:

No, as a parent. As a parent. Because I didn’t want to promote something and then all of a sudden Kind of like the same thing as what you’re saying, but by promoting that there is a Santa, then suddenly, oh well is this true or is this not true?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know that that that question is in and I’ve I’ve our kids have outgrown that, of course, and I remember it as an era.

Justin:

If they haven’t and you’re listening, spoiler, Santa is not. Real.

Mark:

Yeah, and it’ll be interesting. It’ll be interesting as time goes by to see what our kids bring forward from those traditions or how they develop or You know, yeah.

Justin:

I so I think the key here though is to as parents to disambiguate, disambigu remove the ambiguity.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

So to make clear the difference between Jesus and Santa. So use these opportunities when your kids are young to do that. I saw I wish I had it and I I don’t even know how to find it, but I saw maybe it was Facebook or something Where someone said, Hey, here’s a good way to talk about Santa when it comes to Jesus, you know. And it was just a beautifully written thing that would be wonderful to share. I didn’t keep it, I didn’t save it because my kids are past that and I was like, this is really great. I should have kept it.

Mark:

It’s okay.

Justin:

If I can find it, it will be in the show notes. Um but whether we find it or not, this idea where she basically said or he Santa is a wonderful picture of the joy that we want to share with you. And she basically painted this whole picture of how all of this points us to the true joy and the true hope, you know, and it it allows us to feel joy in a way that maybe we couldn’t otherwise. So it’s a it’s an opportunity to kind of bring some joy and happiness So that you can s get a picture of the joy and happiness that we are allowed to have, that we are we we are created to have, but not just at this season we can carry that through because of the true source of that joy. And she just or he again, I think it was a sheet, but basically just did a beautiful job of saying Let’s paint the Santa business as kind of a uh a front uh curtain in front of the stage

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Does that make sense?

Mark:

Yeah, and it’s interesting you you think about painting the you mentioned painting the picture because I’ve been thinking about it this week as a color match. You know, and I I’ll I’ll draw the analogy because it’s like I’ve been working on a white ceiling and I’ve been trying to find a color match. And it’s like Jesus is the the white ceiling and Santa is the color match. It’s just very, you’re not gonna get it perfect every time. You know what I mean? And it’s like There’s just so much because when I look at Jesus

Justin:

trying to make the case

Mark:

I know and it’s it ‘s vivid in my mind because it’s so difficult

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

To get one small aspect of a whole ceiling that doesn’t stand out when you look at it from a certain angle.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

You know, and I think that’s

Justin:

I got some tips for you.

Mark:

Well, I’m I’m open to that, but it’s funny because well there’s another one.

Justin:

In case the listeners don’t know, I I painted a lot in that that was that was Honestly, one of the most difficult challenges was touching up spots on the ceiling.

Mark:

Yes, on white especially.

Justin:

I think I’m understanding that.

Mark:

Yes, and I think and I think it’s difficult for a reason.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because it’s not the same. It’s not the same. The ex you know, the time, you know, the circumstances It just doesn’t

Justin:

yeah.

Mark:

It just it’s not the same thing. And I think it that’s that’s kind of where I was coming from, you know, is that aspect of yeah, when I look at Santa There’s gonna be a part of it that’s missing. That’s not that doesn’t match up to the fullness of who Jesus is. And I think that’s what you know That’s why Jesus came.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Is that regardless, you know, he would be sufficient for those moments when My life may not match up, you know, but yet he covers over that in such a way that whether it’s a difficult time, whether it’s a joyful time, his presence, he desires that relationship with us and that’s why he came.

Justin:

And he desires it without exception and without pre you know cleaning up, heating up. you think about so many Santa movies where, you know, ends with everybody laughing and joyful and singing loud for all to hear to bring chis Christmas cheer. And Santa does as much as we want that to happen, it does he doesn’t transform people.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That that’s a fairy tale. Every movie you watch where they end everyone enjoy Now, don’t get me wrong, some quirky thing can happen at Christmas where everyone ends up laughing and that’s great. I’m just saying. It’s always trying to get us to a place that only Jesus can get us to. And Jesus gets us there through humility. and uh acceptance and belief and faith in him as the source.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Where Santa always tries to bring it out of us and say, you have goodness in you Bring it out, let the world see it. When we’re all ex you know, showing our goodness together, look at the joy we can bring.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Uh when the facts are Jesus says no the true source of joy and goodness is me. And the sooner we all reflect on that, we can become a reflection of him , which is a much better representation of joy. Um anyway, I d yeah, so I think the balance of the two is in my opinion a pretty good place to be.

Mark:

Yeah I’m hearing that. I’m I’m not trying to be dogmatic this year. It just kinda in that whole aspect of but I think for me this year has just been more more difficult

Justin:

yeah

Mark:

in the journey and so therefore I am

Justin:

clinging

Mark:

yes

Justin:

to the Truth.

Mark:

To the truth, yes. Which which and and and tending probably in some ways to let go of some of the dynamics to fluff, yes, that come along with Christmas. So yeah, it’s been fun to be able to chat. And did you had some you had one other thing

Justin:

Yeah, the lyrics to that. I’m gonna post the lyrics in the show notes. Um ‘Cause it’s it’s a pretty beauti beautiful song, but it’s basically what we’re talking about uh if you’re struggling with finding joy at Christmas. It’s called Just Because It’s Christmas and she you know, she just talks about the same exact thing where in this season you’re meant to find your joy in him and in sh her lyrics beautifully paint why, you know, even saying Emmanuel already knows and Emmanuel is a name for he is with us.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So he knows, you know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Anyway, I’ll post the

Mark:

Yeah. So Merry Christmas, one and all.

Justin:

Merry Christmas! Just ho ho ho. Merry Christmas. Jesus loves you.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yes, I know. Yes, indeed. Uh yeah.

Mark:

Hope and joy to you. That’s how we see it.

Justin:

That’s how we see it. Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us, uh, and or talk nicely about us on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C L I C K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.