0:01
[Music]

0:06
yeah we yes you probably don't want to listen to this with your small children because there may be some spoilers yes

0:14
that's exactly what I was thinking about good point that some adults though some adults oh yeah well you know at this

0:22
point if you haven't heard the desending descend descending opinions is that oh

0:27
dissenting dissenting thank you dissenting opinions about Santa then I'm

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impressed that you're listening to this podcast that's true and also grateful and spoilers coming yes we just we just

0:40
want to make sure that we're putting that out there to be uh that was good Insight I try I

0:48
[Music] try welcome to how I see it with me Mark

0:56
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

1:02
countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

1:09
conversations morning Justin good morning Mr Mark how are you sir I am well yeah

1:16
yes um I don't know it will be quite a ways after no no no we're posting this

1:22
one soon yeah so happy anniversary hey well thank you 26 years 26 six years

1:31
years woo yeah and it's been good that's awesome um uh Chris is actually and I I

1:37
realize maybe I shouldn't even be saying this Chris is actually you want me to pause you well it's going to tell you a

1:43
little bit about Chris but uh which we normally keep confidential but Chris is has officially been married half as long

1:51
as she's been alive okay so that's kind of a cool Milestone I have to wait till

1:57
next year yeah but next year I will have been married half is half of my life

2:04
basically that's cool yeah it's kind of interesting to think about from that context that is I'm trying to now I'm

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trying to figure out what that math work um I'm not going to do that next year for me will be our 27th and I'll be 54

2:17
yeah so that that's how the math works this I mean I get your math I'm trying to figure out math for mine I don't want

2:24
to figure that out it'll probably be similar when did you how old were you when you got married 27 oh okay so it'll

2:30
be sooner for me I had 10 years on you yeah not 10 I think five six okay why

2:39
are we doing math it's too early for now you know we're good for it make it stop we're good for it we're going to shift over we'll shift over soon about it but

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yes thank you yeah it's awesome it's good yeah uh we are going to talk a little bit about some Christmasy stuff

2:54
because so we need to have our listeners be aware of age appropriate listening

3:00
because we may be talking about Santa ho ho ho yeah we yes you probably don't

3:06
want to listen to this with your small children because there may be some spoilers yes that's exactly what I was

3:13
thinking about good point that some adults though some adults oh yeah well

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you know at this point if you haven't heard the descending descend descending

3:23
opinions is that oh dissenting dissenting thank you dissenting opinions about s I'm impressed that you're

3:30
listening to this podcast that's true and also grateful and spoilers coming

3:36
yes we just we just want to make sure that we're putting that out there to be uh that was good Insight I try I try so

3:44
I got a little I I was a little leery on how to broach the subject with you to be perfectly honest you know it's like man

3:51
what what I haven't I haven't officially broached this subject Justin this is very polarizing all right

3:57
you trying to say no all right well we'll get to that in a minute I'm just I'm just

4:03
sensitive yeah all right I got a Christmas puzzle

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for you yeah yeah I got joke for you if you want it oh let's have that one first I joke first yeah only if it's what

4:16
vehicle it's a dad bad dad what vehicle did the wise men

4:24
Drive camel I'm trying camouflage no

4:30
that doesn't make any sense it was a Honda cuz they arrived in one

4:37
Accord you get it that's good that's that's real good I got to put that one

4:42
in the old memory banks well don't worry about it too much they arrived in one Accord yes they arrived in Well Done

4:49
Mark well done all right so I'm going to do a Mad Lib with you okay and you can't

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look at the screen cuz oh okay I won't look at the screen all right the first thing I need from you is is a I can't

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read it month you want my glasses yeah no I'm good oh December of course December yes birthday anniversaries

5:09
we're going real literal literal W that's just the one that comes to my mind right now that's good December got

5:14
it um and a verb verb run run okay and I need a

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place I'm going to go with Chicago Chicago

5:30
it's just fun to say Chicago yeah I agree all right how about an adjective

5:38
[Music] adjective kind kind yes

5:47
okay and another place is kind of adjective kind okay that's yeah I was

5:54
thinking about that first is an adverb but yes yeah okay I'm good with that yep he ran he ran kindly doesn't work so

6:03
it's not an adverb yes thank you nice job

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I yes I mean maybe he did but either way yeah yeah all right let's get through

6:15
this uh where were we I got uh I need another place need another place let's go

6:21
with Baton Rouge are we are you sure Rouge yeah I'm

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losing my place all right I need another add another adjective round round

6:36
okay uh man I canot you want my glasses no

6:42
it's just that I don't actually have the Mad Lib sheet so I'm trying to figure out where I am in this puzzle uh one two

6:49
three four five six you want me to hold my finger on the screen but then you'll

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see it no I can all right verb verb

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um let's go with hit okay and we need a noun noun sneaker oh good one uh need

7:10
another verb another verb jumped jumped good one all right

7:18
now we need a noun a noun yep candy bar

7:23
good one all right and we need an adjective adjective

7:30
I'm G to go with thin

7:36
thin I hope this is going to be good I hope there's a big reveal for you guys

7:41
I'm understand I'm trying to get it a little more out of the box all right adjective

7:48
adjective um Harry hary thought you were going to go boxy

7:54
all right color color turquoise oh

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good one trying to make me smell spell turquoise okay uh

8:07
adjective adjective is man there's a lot of those adjectives there are I'm going to

8:14
go man tall okay uh verb

8:21
verb um slipped okay and verb we're almost done verb

8:29
sorry listener we're almost there rolled

8:35
rolled and now now chimney no I want to change that

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chimney's too Christmasy it's coming see yeah I'm thinking this Christmas stuff okay we could mix it up Chicago

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Christmas I want to go with a train train yes it's a good

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one um and two more X an

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exclamation

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like yo baby yo baby yo

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babe all right I got to write that down

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here I can't wait to read this all right and holiday holiday this one you can be

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literal if you want let's go with Christmas sorry all right all right we're ready

9:33
I'm ready this let's try not to mess you need me to read and then you fill in or

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you got it you going to be able let's that way that's a good idea I can look at this now every December we run to a

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tree to a tree we run to a tree Chicago that doesn't make sense isn't

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that place I don't know I have to put my glasses back on but either way far away not just

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any every December we run to a tree Chicago far away nice not just any kind

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Farm a round tree baton rad this this is a

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Terri you picked this my my dad and I hit onto the sneaker

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to J for the perfect candy

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bar some people like them thin and

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hairy and some like them tall and fat yep we are searching for a tall and slip

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one over there I exclaim Dad it's over there off we he rolled saw in hand

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to Herb yeah I have one now uh let's just say to

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roll this year's train down here's your ex exclamation hubba

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hubba baby no y baby y baby y babe it's Christmas finally nice job oh my almost

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painful that was I would dare say that was painful we might have to cut that whole

11:35
thing no I'm going to leave it I'm sorry listeners you're going to have to hear it this is this is what we do for fun

11:41
these days all right so what are we talking about something about spoilers Anders

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Santa yeah so when you think of polarizing this time of year oh

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polarizing I think of the North Pole yes do you think of the North Pole

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no no I mean I guess in Christmas movies yeah yeah in a lot of Christmas movies

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there are that have Santa in them yeah for obvious reasons no doubt that's where the toy Workshop is yes so you got

12:13
to see it yes yeah so yeah that's what we're talking about yeah Christmas yeah

12:19
but not necessarily just Santa right cuz I think we can get what's the other pole

12:25
the South Pole of course and that's where Jesus Lives

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well I never quite that heard it that way but uh yeah those are the two polls that

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we're talking about Santa and Jesus although you know I would say they're

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not necessarily polls in that there I think uh the polls that were likely

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referring to is how we celebrating the focus where the focus becomes but I but

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I dare say they can be complimentary yeah and I think most families I know really strive to balance

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that yeah uh and I think I think this time of year is always a good

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opportunity to reflect on how we balance MH you know and I and I'm I'm looking

13:20
back thinking about it you know in the context of young family young kids you know all the excitement and everything

13:28
that went along with that and and granted I think you know every couple

13:34
you know who has kids needs to wrestle yeah or not you know probably does

13:40
wrestle with how involved are we going to make Santa into our you know

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Christmas season if you will and how do we go ahead I was going to say

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even with or without Santa you there's also the balance of presence and yeah

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yeah how how how many presents too many how many is too little can we afford them this year what what will the kids

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think that we can't afford them and we get fewer whatever or are we spoiling them if we give them all these you know

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like the B balance maybe balance is the key word here maybe in this season and

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I'm still thinking about it in the context of even you know the energy that is exerted for the perfect gift H you

14:28
know mhm and I think you know that that's a of course an opportunity where

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I Think Jesus does need to come into the you know onto the scene of sorts MH that

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you know yeah this is and I yeah I guess that's where I've been as I've been thinking about it you

14:48
know just personally lately you know about that difference as time goes by and that

14:56
where Santa fits in or has the ability we have the ability to fit him in you

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know and yet do we lose sight or how often do I lose sight of Jesus in the

15:10
midst of the Christmas season that's kind of where I've been at that's good

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yeah I would love to hear a little just a little snippet of some of your I guess

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nostalgic favorite moments in you know with Christmas or like some of the

15:27
things that stand out um i' like to you know I'm happy to share mine as well but just like what are some things as you're

15:34
growing up and you know it's you know been 26 years married now yeah and 20

15:40
some of those years obviously a parent and yeah prior to that you know a child yourself and you know just like what are

15:47
some things about Christ Christmas that stand out to you to be just joyful moments or sure does that make sense oh

15:54
yeah it makes perfect sense I actually the peaks in the timeline I guess yeah and I guess

15:59
as I thinking as I was thinking back you know as I about childhood um of course there were the

16:07
season the Christmases with the uh you know the big items that I remember you

16:13
know and and I think initi to be honest with you initially if you were to ask me

16:18
about Christmas Christmas was about my families you know we would always we would always literally you know when I

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was growing up span Christmas Eve with my mom's parents my grandparents but yeah on my

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mom's side and I think you know just being able to they lived on a farm so there

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was something about all of the family gathering together to do chores you know

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and you know it even kind of brought that whole cuz we were feeding cows before we opened gifts you know so it

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kind of brings that whole manger scene to mind you know and I can still remember you know at times going up in

17:00
the the hay M to throw down hay you know

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and it's just it's just cold up there cuz all that dampness is up there from the cows below but it's cold outside so

17:12
there's no heat and it just it just really kind of had that ability to take

17:17
so sensory you know yes the smell of hay and you can hear the cattle Lo and you

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know it really was kind of a a neat opportunity as a kid and then there was

17:29
this family and I can still remember you know the snow of course in the in the

17:35
north you know I can remember the Christmases where it actually snowed Christmas Eve and how that would kind of

17:42
add to you know I remember there was one you know year where it came down and it was like snowball siiz snowflakes you

17:48
know it was like all you know of course once you touch them they pop but it was so magic yeah it was you know and so

17:55
that that's kind of cool and then of course you know so those are memories and you know and I

18:00
remember looking back I remember gifts and recognizing how much my parents had

18:06
to sacrifice or scrimp you know growing up that we didn't know that you know we

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didn't have much yeah but you know it only later on and only in comparison to

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looking now you know how much you know blessed how blessed we are that kind of thing so I'm I'm mindful of those gifts

18:26
and um so yeah that's kind of but family was definitely a part of that yeah

18:32
that's good and being able to include and I think you know for us for and then that became Chris and I you know and our

18:40
own little Traditions that we'd bring into it you know and I I remember we

18:45
when we built our first house in New York state um we we were able to move in

18:53
we got moved in like on the 19th of December you know to be able and I can

18:58
still remember you know we had this big cathedral ceiling in you know two-story cathedral ceiling in the front porch and

19:04
we went and got this seemed like a 14ot tall Christmas tree but it was it was big it was big and we were so excited to

19:11
bring it into the house it that we brought it in and you know and I shook it off on the front porch but there was

19:17
still snow on it you know and we had this brand new floor you know that we had uh you know hardwood floor and it

19:23
and it started leaking you know drip to where we ended up having to get towels and you you know on a whole nine yards

19:30
but that was it's still a fun it was still a fun memory you know that that tree just you know it was like a

19:36
tropical rainforest you know drip drip drip off a off a uh but yeah those were those were fun and then you know the

19:41
kids growing up and you know and we when we moved to North Carolina a lot of our Christmases had

19:50
have well we've tried to be home on Christmas day but I still remember some where somewhere we travel to places and

19:58
spend time as a family like it you know Great Wolf Lodge or or something like that to try and make the you know

20:06
Christmas Christmas special for our kids even though we might be on the road you

20:11
know that kind of thing and and John of course is born his birthday is the 28th so trying to be able to you know have

20:18
that separate from Christmas 2 yours is mine's December as well but yeah it's

20:24
Christmas baby my sister is also December 9th okay yeah so yeah that's

20:30
kind of so yeah that's that's her name is Holly oh wow should have named you

20:35
Holly no I man version of that I don't know Holland Holland yeah yeah call Noel

20:44
doesn't even work does it no that's my niece's name oh wow Holly Holly's daughter is Noel was born December 8th

20:51
oh wow yeah wow is there a mistletoe in the family not yet okay okay

21:00
yeah I'm looking forward to them heing what about you yeah well but right before we do that I had a specific

21:07
question I want to ask do you have a specific memory good memory of a santa themed a Santa themed memory red white

21:15
red and white you know Candy Cane Stripes that whole world Andor do you

21:21
have specific Jesus themed memory right like the the manger and the you know

21:26
nativity scene and kind of you know they're kind of like those poles right when you think about

21:33
ironically my probably most vivid memory of

21:41
Santa was in the church growing up wow yeah right we yeah it is we would have

21:48
on for the part of the Christmas program in the church they would have Santa come

21:53
in and I still remember receiving like an orange yeah from Santa you know and

21:59
that whole aspect of you know at that time me trying to figure out okay who's

22:05
Santa you know yeah who is this person you know in this role as you as I may

22:12
you know to where I can remember that so you were past the just like oh look there Santa and there's Jesus not yeah

22:19
definitely pass I I can't remember remember a time I really can't remember

22:25
a time that I held fast to the Santa notion I'll be honest with

22:31
you yeah I can't either but um yeah and

22:36
even you know for Chris and I it was more a matter of yeah and and it's not that my parents didn't do you know the

22:42
Santa gifts and Chris and I even with our kids you know the stocking stuffer stuff yeah that was all Santa yeah yeah

22:51
but it wasn't anything that we definitely promoted promoted you know and it was kind of a

22:59
yeah I'm just looking back I can't I'm not saying we didn't have ever have our pictures as a family taken with Santa

23:06
but I can't remember any you know but yeah yeah okay that's fair and and then

23:13
the the Jesus uh Nativity part when you put the Nativity I can remember you know

23:19
as a young adult you know being part of a live nativity you know which is kind

23:24
of a neat thing you know especially in the north you're kind of freezing but it's hot chocolate you know there's you

23:29
know you it's good again all those sensory memories stand up yeah but that's what I'm saying I think I think

23:35
growing up on the farm you know on my grandparents farm that that spending Chris that would probably be my most

23:42
reflective Jesus moments you know at Christmas time because you were in a

23:48
barn yeah yeah made you think of that I mean there well you're literally you know like your brain at that time was

23:54
thinking these thoughts that's cool having heard those stories of you know

24:00
Mary and Joseph and Jesus you know and you know I just you know cuz there my

24:07
grandparents of course you know in front of the cow there's a concrete tro yeah

24:12
yeah you know that and that's you know that's where you fed him that's where he and you know and it's like man yeah I

24:19
think about that you know granted we think of the you know the conjured up kind of crossbuck wood slap thing that

24:26
we you know think of as a main but for me I guess looking at it in that

24:32
form that really had a crude yeah feel to it yeah well it's because the the

24:39
crossb thing that we're used to seeing is representative of Jesus at this point it doesn't represent a food trough for

24:47
animals to us sure as like it's ingrained for centuries that that's a

24:52
Jesus carrier so it has this quaint beautiful look to it but really it's not

24:59
no what I'm saying is it's we we can't even disconnect that picture to go back

25:05
to its rudimentary form and where con yeah you could look at that version of

25:10
it and go oh yeah you know that's that's that's cool yeah yeah we need to replace

25:16
that picture with like just a concrete slab or something bucket but yeah that's

25:21
what it's that's what it's like you know and I yeah and so it was neat to to

25:26
think about it from that that cold yet warm you know as the cow you know the

25:31
animals create the heat in that building you know it's not like you know modern

25:37
day buildings where oh it's a little chilly in here you know let's turn up the heat you know it's just that's

25:43
that's kind of the stuff that comes to mind for me how about you yeah uh no just thinking about it there's I just

25:51
always remember Joy at Christmas you know cuz you know we've talked about

25:57
depression before in this podcast you know that that's kind of a thing that I've struggle with throughout my whole

26:02
life at some points you know but I never remember that really being a thing at

26:07
Christmas time I just always remember joy and my picture of It kind of that

26:13
fuzzy picture you look back in your past includes all of it the red and white and you know the the Santo ho ho ho and the

26:22
Jesus and the manger it's it's like it all counts you know what I mean I hear you and I don't remember that like the

26:29
emphasis of one overshadowing the emphasis emphasis of another is kind of they both were very important or you

26:36
know pretty key parts of my upbringing in terms of just the joy part and the fun um but again I also don't remember

26:43
ever quote unquote believing in Santa but just the you know kind of that whole

26:49
View and picture of that sure you know ho ho ho culture whatever yeah you know

26:56
ho ho ho culture there's a there's a has there you go that is a good head yeah so

27:02
like and yeah and then specific memories I have I mean I have good memories of Christmases and then I have some that

27:08
aren't as good I remember one Christmas uh because of finances or poor planning or whatever it was our Christmas tree

27:15
was our uh Lazy Boy chair oh wow this black like pleather you know fake

27:21
leather like pivoting Lazy Boy chair thing so we just put the presents on

27:27
there and some of the presents were not quite wrapped great it was like just not a well planned Christmas if you know

27:33
what I mean yeah and I just remember thinking you know this isn't how it's supposed to be wow yeah so I think that's kind of

27:40
the bummer you know memory that I have but at the same time I it what didn't feel that bad but yeah just looking at

27:47
that chair going that's not a tree yeah we can imagine all we want but that's

27:53
not a tree it's not working yeah wow um but then I remember other Christmas um I

27:59
got uh my first mountain bike and prior to this you know I had always had hand me- down bikes in fact the one I rode

28:06
the most was a banana seat bike oh sure and even at that age like banana seat bikes were no not a thing anymore like

28:14
oh really you could find them right and that's kind of so mine kind of had a classic look to it I kind of like it

28:19
kind of had orang bar on the back loud tricks yeah it was orange and had like

28:24
orange wrap around the handlebar it was kind of cool like I was like that's kind of retro cool so I I didn't mind it you

28:31
have the little tassels coming out the end of the handle oh good no if I did I would have cut them off you know but no

28:38
I remember I got a mountain bike and it had been you know snowed a few times that year and then it had uh frozen rain

28:47
on top of the snow so I actually took my bike out in my yard and I rode around on

28:53
top of the snow oh wow and I had a flipping blast I bet was the best time

28:59
you know every once in a while you're tired sinking to almost Fly Over The Handlebar sure that I just remember that

29:05
being the best thing ever just riding my bike in the middle of winter out on top of the snow you know the frozen snow was

29:12
pretty that was that was a fun I do remember a new sled do you yeah oh yeah yeah it was the early 70s and and still

29:20
riding that on top of the crust that came you know would you get an 8 in snow

29:25
and then you know it would melt and you get a rainy and get cold Harden down

29:31
basically be sledding on ice the runner sleds they were they were yeah yeah I love those things they were killers they

29:38
were good they were fast they were fast as long as you were not on Cinders or

29:43
didn't break through the crust you were good to go yeah yeah yeah so yeah I mean

29:48
it's plenty of good memories I also remember um in terms of gifts go gifts

29:55
just always being slightly under welmed because you know I had these

30:02
expectations about oh if they just get that you know it's a pretty narrow list

30:08
and the Chance is someone's going to read your mind get that you know so that's one thing like I can just recognize over the years dropping those

30:16
expectations to literally saying I don't care you know in a good way um but at

30:21
the same time you know some we've kind of morphed a little bit culturally I

30:28
think where everyone got has a list you send someone your list and you make it easy on the person getting gifts you

30:34
know which is great for the person buying gifts I feel I feel better for them not having like guess but it

30:41
certainly loses some of the charm of you know yeah but at the same time it's like

30:48
it's not like anyone's buying someone the perfect gift you're how you know it's like you have this idea of a

30:54
perfect gift and it goes back to loveling which is what I think you're going to love Mark it might not hit home

30:59
for you the way it would hit home if I got that gift but usually we get from a place of oh man I would love that so I

31:06
bet they you know H I would love that I don't know yeah I don't know I and

31:12
I I think most people do try and get gifts based on what they think that

31:18
person will like I I'm not that that I don't think that's true that they're always given from a place but I I do

31:25
think it's really hard hard to hit the nail on the head no no doubt and so the

31:31
more excited you are about giving this gift and you're like waiting to see him open it and it's like there's so much

31:36
pressure and you better like it Mark you know it's like well this is cool I have three of these but whatever I don't know

31:43
yeah or like I really like my old one that's half broken but I guess I'll use this new one whatever you know I mean

31:49
like that creates some of those those awkward moments of recognizing and I think that can be part of that downside

31:56
it's like sucks I thought that would be better yeah and yeah yeah cuz I I I I

32:04
really know some I mean I'm fortunate cuz you know I have a lot of good gift

32:11
givers in our family yeah yeah I'm just you always pleased or not you know like

32:16
you open your gift wow nice job like yeah yeah in the way that they think of

32:23
me and I I re I can respect the fact that I'm not that good at

32:28
giving in comparison to those people yeah and so giving is hard

32:35
yeah well I think it takes a definite amount of time and

32:41
energy which I'm not sure we're always good at investing that's true but I

32:47
think those people that are good at it are good at it but yet they also the time and the energy and they're they're

32:54
willing to search a little bit and uh oh maybe you know and think about it and

33:01
until they come to the aha moment yeah you know as I watch those people you

33:06
know I'm recognizing that I think in some ways that's what they do yeah and they're observers yeah yeah yeah yeah so

33:16
gifts are that's another potentially polarizing subject in regards to this season but um I was trying to think of

33:22
the Santa versus Jesus and again like I said my memories just kind they kind of

33:27
blend together in terms of the Christmas movies we had watch and just the joy and fun that that would bring and then the

33:35
Nativity events that we have at church and and the joy and fun that that would bring as well sure but I also really

33:41
have always embraced and love kind of the sobering nature of the Nativity

33:46
Story when it you know when it come to those sobering moments and those sobering songs kind of the you know um

33:53
softer quieter Silent Night type song I always appreciated that

33:58
and looking back it's not like I was thinking this but I just really value that side of Christmas too as well as

34:04
the ho ho ho jingle jingle jingle you like loud and in your face and joyful and boisterous it was like there's such

34:12
a nice balance in the way I grew up with that balanced culture of the Santa and you know that

34:20
whole side of things as well as the Jesus side of things intivity I I think I don't know I think

34:26
it just happened to be be perfect for my potential way of thinking uh the way

34:32
that I grew up in terms of that balance to have both have a lot of Joy but also have some so sobering quiet reflective

34:40
you know just that balance I don't know yeah and I think that for me this Christmas I've been more mindful of even

34:47
that balance not that I'm getting it right but when we think when I think of

34:53
the Christmas story I'm I'm so mindful I guess of you know we went to a a service

35:00
the other evening and they they had you know a a person recite kind of uh a

35:06
Shepherd story mhm you know and how he came you know how you know Jesus came

35:12
you know first to the Shepherds the lowly people yeah you know to announce who he was and you know and I think

35:20
that's kind of a polarizing dyamic of the first Christmas you know how and there was

35:25
this whole Angel Army that showed up you know when he

35:31
arrived and I think of that balance in the context of the history of it too

35:36
that within two years there were you know also a whole bunch of people who

35:42
lost their firstborn child you know in that context of Christmas you know that

35:48
that that joyful they weren't they weren't there wasn't joy in that because there was you know there was a battle

35:56
taking place infanticide yes crazy and I think you

36:01
know at times we can lose sight of that in the in the Christmas story or I I

36:07
should say I lose sight of that but this year it's kind of been a little more I think this year's been a little

36:13
different just because of you know the way I think about it you know this will be the first year you know without

36:19
Chris's dad you know and how that has changed Christmas and I you know have people people that I work with you know

36:27
who have lost significant relatives and I think about them and I think about that balance like we're talking about

36:34
that there's a there's a tremendous joy and yet at the same time there's there's

36:40
joy around those memories but then those memories create that sadness and that longing for that individual that is no

36:47
longer here MH you know and it just that how there is still such a diversity

36:56
about you know a polarizing feeling that can be connected with this this season

37:02
yeah and I think from my perspective that's what brings you know the importance of Jesus for you know to the

37:10
season to be able to recognize how yes he understands both sides yeah and is

37:18
there to comfort us or to enjoy with us in the midst of the joy and in the midst

37:25
of the sorrow you know and I and I think you know not to be you

37:31
know mean-spirited but you know I think that's where the difference for me comes from you know this this Jesus presence

37:37
versus this ho ho unrelenting ho ho ho yeah what is it toxic

37:45
Joy yes I hear where you're coming from toxic positivity no but that aspect of December

37:52
26th you know the okay Santa's back up north now

37:58
taken all next year to prepare for the ride again you know that kind of thing and it's like no Jesus is here M on the

38:07
26 in the in the loneliness or in the in the sorrow or or the joy in the quiet

38:15
yes yeah yes yeah that's good I and I think that it's kind of interesting

38:21
because it brings me to another I can I can remember at times as a kid you know

38:27
walking from you know building to building in the winter time and looking up at the stars and thinking about the

38:34
Star of Bethlehem too you know that was you know on those cold crisp winter nights it's like those stars are just as

38:41
bright you know I can always remember you know my grandmother would you know point out Orion to me you know and we'd

38:47
look for the Big Dipper and you know the North Star and you think about those guys journeying in you know two years or

38:55
so give or take yeah yeah it's just just kind of a a neat context to add to that

39:01
did you look for Santa in the sky while you were thinking of the star I I can't say as if I did reindeer yeah yeah

39:08
that's yeah I'm still you know we we still watch Elf as part of you know a family you know tradition type stuff but

39:15
best way to bring Christmas cheers singing loud for all to hear yes that's what they say I'm not sure of it but

39:22
that might be an alism Yeah Yeah from the movie but yes great movie yes and

39:28
yeah it's very what about you the Jesus part for yeah so well the first thing I

39:33
was thinking about when you were saying you know Jesus is still for you

39:38
and the joy and the whatever is you know on the 26 and therefore or even leading

39:44
up to it like I guess just the point like Christmas is joyful because of his

39:53
coming to a dark world and so that is true always

39:59
universally no matter your situation sure and I feel like um I want to say in

40:05
the last 5 years maybe I feel like it's kind of been a theme that I've been

40:11
hearing somewhat regularly where we've become more sensitive to those who are

40:17
having a tough time in Christmas and so we talk about that like at church where we're talking about we talk about that

40:23
in different contexts where it's like I we recognize Christmas might not be a joyful season for you so we talk about

40:30
how to bring it back to Joy or whatever um and that seems like a New Concept to me within 5 years again I'm just making

40:37
that number up where it kind of was just almost that toxic positivity like joy

40:42
and Joy to the World and all just happy happy happy where I feel like we're balancing that more now I don't know why

40:47
I don't know you know you know what's that word uh spirit of the time

40:53
Zeitgeist Zeitgeist yeah I don't know why it took place in the Zeitgeist that kind of brought that to the culture but

40:58
but I'm thankful for it because not not not to be downers to those who are having Joy but to remember that there

41:05
are those who aren't but also to point them to the source of Hope sure and even

41:12
when you think about that situation you know when Jesus was born into this very

41:18
dark world this oppressive regime was over you know the the land and even the

41:24
death of all the infants to try and kill Jesus yeah was only emphasizing the dark

41:30
that needed this light sure so when these Shepherds and these angels showed

41:36
up you know especially the Shepherds those who were in the culture at the time even the wise men recognizing like

41:43
this world is so dark and if you represent the lightness that we think you do like my goodness right yeah and I

41:52
think that same sentiment can continue for all eternity M right like for those

41:59
who don't know Jesus and don't know of that but to come to that manger and go if you represent the light that it seems

42:06
like they're saying you do in this dark time where everyone's joyful but I'm not or whatever or you know someone I love

42:14
died and this season no longer means to me what it used to if you represent what

42:20
I understand you to to be I can still find My Hope and my joy in you mhm and I

42:26
think you can you can't do that with Santa course you know what I mean oh I agree um now don't

42:32
get me wrong you know there's nothing wrong with a little pep and happiness to try and lift your spirits I'm not saying

42:39
that but I am saying there is the truest version of joy and hope is found in

42:46
Jesus yeah you know and I and I think that's where my heart I as you were

42:52
sharing that uh that worship song you guys did that CR is Anne Wilson M you

42:58
know what was it it was that i' have to look it up no don't really don't have to look it up but it was about the fact

43:04
even though it's Christmas yeah you know that we can have this Joy even if it's

43:11
even yeah during Christmas you know and it because we don't have to and I think

43:16
there is a good awareness that I want to read one of the lyrics to in it cuz it's just and keep

43:23
talking no no that's fine I understand what you're doing and but I would I'm thinking about it in that context

43:29
because I think when we get it out of

43:34
balance and you know and the gifts and the busyness and the the ho ho ho you

43:42
know become the focus I think there is a a

43:47
down shift there is a emptiness that comes into our hearts

43:54
that it's like oh shucks I I I put too much focus on that this year and I've

44:00
been you know I think it's I I think I can honestly say I've been there you

44:05
know to where you know I've gotten it mixed up but I think as I've you know

44:13
maybe age to a certain degree it's like that that reality of yeah Jesus is

44:21
365 you know 66 in a leap year you know that kind of thing all always there MH

44:29
and regardless and I think you know even the the unque part you know I've been thinking about even from the context of

44:36
anniversary because you know you know this this past happy anniversary but this past year you know

44:43
has had you know you know two years has had difficulty you know John being out of the States you know just these trials

44:49
you know Chris's father and you know and being able to recognize yeah this is

44:54
this is you know Jesus is faithful yeah I don't I'm not I'm not talking with

45:00
Santa Claus on June 26th you know and saying okay that's when you're supposed

45:05
to be writing your letters yeah I suppose but you know help me with this

45:11
or you know keep my sun safe in you know a foreign country you know and you know

45:16
just that kind of thing I've just really been I think that's where I've been and

45:21
I just I feel for people who are aren't

45:27
able to or don't have Jesus whole picture yes yeah yeah it's just you know

45:34
well that's just a part of the SE another part of the Season you know church I mean Christmas and Easter you

45:42
know these are these two times a year I go to church you know but the relationship is available all year

45:49
round and you know that's that's yeah and it's in there in that mindset right

45:56
um Jesus is equivalent to Santa and Easter bunny it's kind of this yeah once

46:02
a year thing that's kind of a quaint idea that makes you feel good you know whatever but I liked I also liked what

46:09
you shared uh the other evening too on the whole maybe Sunday morning on you know the timeline split yeah you know

46:18
anodi type stuff you know because of his birth and I think you know when we think

46:25
about it well when we can think about well he was a good Prophet or he was a

46:30
good teacher or you know he was here we're not going to deny that you know he had a a historical presence on the earth

46:38
type thing but when we're not able to recognize there's a personal relationship available because of that

46:46
historical aspect I think you know that's that's where I I feel for people

46:52
especially this time of year to be able to find the joy even in the darkness as

46:58
the days are shorter and you know those kind of things yeah yeah and that's desire to offer hope that's why I love

47:04
the opportunity of Christmas being involved significantly in church

47:10
ministry is it's kind of a it's a really big opportunity for people to come

47:15
through the doors looking for that joy happy Santa ho ho ho sure you know Jesus

47:21
added on top and then to hear some of those truths of the Peace of Christ and

47:27
the true joy and the true meaning of Hope and you know it's just I think has

47:35
always been throughout history as we celebrated Christmas an opportunity for

47:40
you know Believers to spread that truth and that joy and that love and some a

47:46
lot and often so I was thinking about how two two sides of this where um Santa

47:53
can draw us away from Jesus and also culture um but also Redemption is a

48:00
common theme right that's what one of uh Jesus and God's best characteristics is how they can redeem things and I also

48:07
think that Santa has been redeemed by churches for years and year you think about like you said growing up in there

48:13
was Santa at church well for some people the draw was Santa right and even in you know a lot

48:20
of the big events that we have at churches these days where it's like come for the cocoa and the pajamas you know

48:27
whatever is just the draw sure right and

48:32
because we're so excited about this opportunity we have every year to get you in the door with some Joy some fun

48:39
even cultural relevance or whatever because we have we get to introduce you

48:45
to the true meaning of Christmas and as cliche as that sounds it's such a

48:50
wonderful time of year to be able to do that no it's it's an interesting point

48:56
cuz I can I can remember as a child you know being in the Christmas production

49:03
of sorts and I can still remember all the parents who would come for that one

49:08
production yeah who you might not get to the church the rest of the year you know because their child was in was a wise

49:16
man their child you know I and I think about that in in the light of what you're saying you know how yeah Jesus is

49:24
still about the Redemption business yes yeah meaning he can take things that

49:31
can be bad and use them for good I think that's what's cool and not I'm not

49:36
saying s is bad and that's not my polarized Viewpoint I'm actually very

49:41
happy with the compliment idea where um you know but like you were saying uh for

49:47
those who that emptiness occurs that's what this season represents to a church

49:55
is opportunity to hey you know how much this Santa side is

50:00
fun well just imagine you know the truth you know some some true hope and some

50:06
true Joy let's talk about that and it's an opportunity that I think is pretty great yeah um I was also thinking about

50:14
um cuz you know talking about Jesus and Santa how as we teach her children both

50:22
yeah and at some point we go well the jigs up this one's a fairy tale not this

50:28
one though you should you should keep believing this one right and I think that is such an interesting I think

50:35
that's where uh Santa can become a tool of the dark side right where it is an

50:42
opportunity to say yeah they're both fairy tales and as you grow out of the Santa you know you're thinking about

50:48
your upbringing and how it's like well you know or not you're up just normal upbringing of like we celebrate Santa he

50:55
brings gifts and whatever and they kind of trick us us into Santa's here look there's Crumbs from the cookies that he ate and then the next day we go to the

51:01
nativity scene at church and we watch that production and at some point they go haha jigs up Santa's not really real

51:07
but don't spoil it for your sister and they're like but we're still going to the Nativity and and you're like it

51:13
feels like they're in the same category like you know I think a lot of people have come to that point of maturity to

51:19
go Santa's not real and also this Jesus thing is also a fairy tale but a lot more people believe this one but come on

51:25
guys you know and I think that's the part that I I remember wrestling with early on is that that balancing the

51:35
truth of you know Jesus is real and even you know to promote the fairy tale of

51:42
Santa I always had that in the back of my mind okay is there going to be anything else that I want to convey to

51:50
my kids as truth and granted we chose to kind of let the kids have their perspective based on more so on culture

51:57
but I can't say we did promote it with the gift type Dynamic but I was it was typically in the back of my mind it's

52:03
like okay is there going to come a day when I want to convey a truth and it's

52:09
going to get confused with this fairy tale is is there anything else that my

52:15
parents allowed me to believe and didn't tell me is true you know that was that I can remember that wrestling yeah you

52:21
know in that dynamic as a child you mean no as aent a parent aent

52:27
because I didn't want to promote something and then all the sudden kind of like the same thing as

52:33
what you're saying but by promoting that there is a Santa then suddenly oh well is this true or is this not true you

52:41
know that that that question is in and I've I've our kids have outgrown that of

52:48
course and I remember it as an era if they haven't and you're listening spoiler Santa is not real yeah and it'll

52:57
be interesting it'll be interesting as time goes by to see what our kids you know bring forward from those Traditions

53:05
or how they develop or you know yeah I so I think the key here though is to as

53:13
parents to disambiguate dis remove the ambiguity sure so to make

53:20
clear the difference between Jesus and Santa so use these opportunities when your kids are young to do that I saw I

53:27
wish I had it and I I don't even know how to find it but I saw maybe it was Facebook or something where someone said

53:33
hey here's a good way to talk about Santa oh wow when it comes to Jesus you know and it was just a beautifully

53:40
written thing that would be wonderful to share I didn't keep it I didn't save it cuz my kids are past that but I was like

53:46
this is really great I should have kept it it's okay if I can find it it will be in the show not show notes um but

53:53
whether we find it or not this idea where she basically said or he Santa is

53:59
a wonderful picture of the joy that we want to share with you and she basically

54:05
painted this whole picture of how all of this points us to the true joy and the

54:10
true hope you know and it it allows us to feel Joy in a way that maybe we

54:16
couldn't otherwise so it's it's an opportunity to kind of bring some joy and happiness so that you can get a

54:23
picture of the joy and happiness that we are allowed to have that we are we were created to have but not just at this

54:30
season we can carry that through because of the true source of that Jo and she

54:36
just or he again I think it was a she had but basically just did a beautiful job of saying let's paint the Santa

54:42
business as kind of a a a front uh

54:48
curtain in front of the stage sure does that make sense yeah and it's interesting you you think about painting

54:54
you mention painting the picture cuz I've been thinking about this week as a color match you know and I I'll I'll draw the

55:01
analogy because it's like I've been working on a white ceiling and I've been

55:07
trying to find a color match and it's like Jesus is the the white ceiling and

55:12
Santa is the color match it's just very you're you're not going to get it

55:17
perfect every time you know what I mean and it's like there's just so much

55:23
because when I look at Jesus trying to make the I know and it's it's Vivid in my mind because it's so difficult yeah

55:31
to get one small aspect of a whole ceiling that doesn't stand out when you

55:37
look at it from a certain angle yeah you know and I think that's I got some tips for you well I'm I'm open to that but

55:45
it's funny because well there's another in case the listeners don't know I I painted a lot and that that was that was

55:52
honestly one of the most difficult challenges was touching on spot on the ceiling yes on white especially I think

55:59
I'm understanding that difficulty of yes and I and I think it's difficult for a

56:04
reason yeah because it's not the same not the same it's not the same the you

56:09
know the time you know the circumstances it just doesn't yeah it

56:15
just it's not the same thing and I think you that's that's kind of where I was coming from you know was that aspect of

56:22
yeah when I look at Santa there's going to be a part of it that's missing that's

56:28
not that doesn't match up to the fullness of who Jesus is and I think

56:33
that's what you know that's why Jesus came yeah is that regardless you know he

56:40
would be sufficient for those moments when my life may not match up you know

56:47
but yet he covers over that in such a way that whether it's a difficult time

56:53
whether it's a joyful time his presence he desire desires that relationship with us and that's why he came and he desires

57:00
it without uh exception and without um pre you know cleaning up you know you

57:08
think about so many Santa movies where you know ends with everybody laughing and joyful and singing loud for all to

57:14
hear to bring Christmas cheer and Santa does as much as we want that to happen

57:20
it he doesn't transform people that that's a fairy tale every movie you watch where they end every enjoy now

57:27
don't get me wrong some quirky thing can happen at Christmas where everyone ends up laughing that's great I'm just saying

57:34
it's always trying to get us to a place that only Jesus can get us to and Jesus

57:41
gets us there through humility and uh acceptance and belief and faith in him

57:48
as the source sure where Santa always tries to bring it out of us and say you

57:54
have goodness in you bring it out let the world see it when we're all you know

58:00
showing our goodness together look at the joy we can bring sure uh when the facts are Jesus says no the true source

58:07
of joy and goodness is me yeah and the sooner we all reflect on that we can

58:13
become a reflection of him which is a much better representation of Joy um

58:20
anyway I yeah so I think the balance of the two yeah is in my opinion pretty

58:26
good place to be yeah I'm hearing that I'm I'm not trying to be dogmatic this year

58:34
it just kind of in that whole aspect but I think for me this year has just

58:42
been more more difficult yeah in the journey and so therefore I am clinging

58:50
yes to the truth to the truth yes which is which which and and and tend probably

58:57
in some ways to let go of some of the dyamics the fluff yes that come along

59:04
with Christmas so yeah it's been fun to be able to chat and you had some you had one other thing yeah the lyrics to that

59:10
I'm going to post the lyrics in the show notes or post a link to the Ann Wilson song um specifically the lines um

59:17
because it's it's a pretty be beautiful song but it's basically what we're talking about if you're struggling with

59:22
fine and joy at Christmas it's called just because it's Christmas and you know she just talks about the

59:28
same exact thing where in this season you're meant to find your joy in him and

59:34
and her lyrics beautifully paint why you know even saying Emanuel already knows

59:39
and Emanuel is a neighb for he is with us sure so he knows you know yeah anyway

59:46
I'll post the yeah so Merry Christmas one and all Merry Christmas ho ho ho

59:53
Merry Christmas Jesus loves you yes yes I know yes

59:58
indeed uh yeah hope en joy to you that's how we see it that's how we see

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