0:00
[Music] welcome to how I see it with me Mark

0:06
Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

0:11
countercultural polarization through thoughtful [Music]

0:19
conversations hello welcome back to the how I see it podcast if you're tuning in

0:24
for the first time we are so happy to have you um if you've been around a little bit we'd love for you to show

0:30
your support for this podcast through doing things like recommending us on your social networks this could be as

0:36
simple as just you know share one of the episodes you really enjoyed um we also it help it's helpful when you like our

0:43
social media posts share those um and especially when you subscribe to the podcast through whatever podcast or

0:50
music playing service that you use you might be surprised to know that when you

0:55
do these things um this this is what they call engagement uh these algorithms

1:00
really care about this stuff so when you show that you care about what we're producing here it's more likely that the

1:06
various social networks will will promote what we're doing and share it because there's engagement there so we

1:11
love it when you support us in that way uh last week we shared with you the first part of our chat with judge Jason

1:18
disbro and we've heard so much great feedback on that episode we're really happy to share with you today the

1:24
continuation of this interview uh where the conversation veers in a more personal Direction so we hope you

1:32
enjoy and I think it's a good thing that the motion get us 20 days for failing to

1:38
pay a fine as opposed to you're driving with your license revoked because you've been convicted of driving while impaired

1:44
there should be different levels of punishment and those should be different misdemeanor so the legislature made that change another change the legislature

1:51
made uh possession of of marijuana possession of marijuana

1:57
paraphernalia uh possession of drug paraphernalia depending on the

2:02
paraphernalia was a class one mometer anything used to be a class one Miser

2:08
now possession of marijuana paraphernalia is a class three misdemeanor sure a lower

2:14
level again Lower punishment yeah possession of marijuana is a class

2:20
three misdemeanor depending on the amount so there's a and of course there's a move

2:27
across the the nation to to legalize marijuana all together and with with

2:32
medical marijuana uh being legal in many many states and will probably be legal

2:38
in North Carolina at some point w the legislature is they're taking these

2:45
steps I I think to almost get them to the point of civil

2:51
penalties where as opposed to making it criminal you you pay a $50 civil penalty and that's not what it is currently but

2:58
that's it we seem to be moving towards that in North Carolina and in many other

3:03
states across the country where it's not only is it not criminal but there's no civil penalty as well and that I'm not

3:10
implying that I agree with that philosophy but I certainly understand

3:16
that Philosophy from a legislative perspective yeah also fighting the tide

3:21
seems like a losing battle in many ways fiscally for instance I mean the amount

3:27
of uh you know just general speaking right that's one of the complaints

3:32
against the drug the War on Drugs right is like how much resources we put into that and so the idea that marijuana is

3:40
legalizing you know across the country and we're trying to keep this I mean it seems pretty

3:46
irresponsible to try and hold that line um that that's just my armchair how

3:53
I see it sure yeah no I I think a lot of folks I think a lot of folks see it that same way Justin which

4:01
I think this is somewhat of the compromise that our legislature has made uh with it thus far

4:07
and and like I said I I think you'll see further further compromise yeah that is

4:13
a tremendous change that's basically occurred within the past yeah years yeah well within the past decade for

4:20
sure of of decreasing yeah the the criminal aspect of that and there's

4:26
specifically marijuana yes more so than yes and then I'll give you you know one more area that comes to mind of what I

4:33
what I think a significant change in North Carolina are uh expungements okay

4:39
uh an expungement is it's basically wiping your record clean okay when I

4:44
first started practicing law back in 1998 it was very limited what you could

4:51
expunge what what decided I mean as far as those limitations the law the legisl decided

4:58
these type of cases you from your record U very few felonies

5:03
could be exped okay it was mainly misdemeanors a lot of times there were

5:08
age limitations that you had to be convicted between you know 18 and and 21

5:14
depending on the crime again that has been expanded

5:19
wow significantly uh tenfold where now you can be uh you can expunge nonviolent

5:26
felonies after 10 years W uh some of them you know 15year weight

5:33
significant yeah felonies okay and I but you said nonviolent correct nonviolent

5:41
yeah the violent felonies yeah yeah you're going to have a hard time getting a armed robbery con that's drug

5:47
trafficking you know things like that are not going to be expunged

5:54
but this type of this wave of change that that I've seen from the from the

5:59
legal perspective that that comes from our legislature and really is again a push across the country I think

6:06
is it shows Grace on our part as as people yeah I was going to ask what's

6:11
your take on how do you what do you how do you see that like I think it's a great

6:18
thing we all make mistakes and and I realize we all don't make mistakes and necessarily violate the law but I think

6:26
it's shameful for us as a country country if a 24y old kid because there's

6:33
still a kid in my eyes um does something stupid and is

6:39
convicted of uh possession of cocaine possession of marijuana whatever it is

6:44
name your felony and they have that scarlet letter for the rest of their

6:50
life uh I see a lot of good people in the courtroom that who come before me and I

6:57
know that that may shock a lot of people they're good people yeah who are

7:02
struggling with addiction um who are are in this

7:09
position because they've gone through a a horrible divorce and they just they they just fell apart uh who didn't have

7:17
a dad in their house since they were six years old and haven't had any guidance or didn't have a mother

7:24
around have been hanging out with the uh uh the wrong crowd for the past few years

7:31
those people you know we all deserve a chance to to show that we can we can get

7:36
this thing right and all crimes are not created equal MH

7:44
you know we all come from different environments and I I think it's

7:51
important that we we remember Grace and and we remember

7:58
uh that I you know I think we're a country of Second Chances and I think that we we

8:06
have a justice system that is a justice system of second chances I mean most people put on probation MH to me that's

8:13
giving you a second chance to get it right so demonstrating your willingness to want to change that's right that's

8:20
right it doesn't mean you don't get punished sure but it means the punishment is not what it could be because we're going to give you an

8:26
opportunity to to get this thing straight out you know for instance someone comes in and um they're in a

8:34
domest they're in a relationship and they commit domestic violence against their wife yeah uh now that's tough for

8:41
me because I was I was brought up you'd never put your hands on on a female period doesn't matter what they do to you they you know they they kick you in

8:47
the privates you take it and you move on that's how I was taught so I I've got some bias towards that and I and I

8:55
recognize that that I've gotten an implicit bias so I have to check myself but you know often times we we order folks

9:03
we give them a suspended sentence for you know for this assault if it's their first first offense sure we order them

9:11
into what's called a domestic violence offender program that is 26 weeks it's it's pretty expensive I think it's

9:17
$1,000 for somebody to pay so they go through it's a of their personal money their personal money one hour a week

9:23
they go to this class and they learn about uh you know domestic violence and and how to control your temper I'll I'll

9:30
leave that to to the expert Mark the counselor but you know they they learn Tools in order to deal with that and we

9:37
we give them community service to do as opposed to putting them in jail for 30 days and saying okay you're done with

9:43
your sentence because at the end of the day I'm not sure that really fixes anything right if we haven't given them

9:49
any tools to maybe prevent this behavior in the future yeah then am I have I

9:56
really done my job as a judge to help this community make this Community better M now look if the individual is

10:03
put on probation refuses to go to the domestic violence offender program classes doesn't do his community service

10:10
and picks up a new charge he's going to prison you know we're going to activate a sentence he go to prison because he's

10:16
refused to do his probation but that that's on him yeah yeah yeah given the

10:21
opportunity correct that's correct you can extend Grace if they don't yeah if they don't appreciate and take advantage

10:28
of that Grace well okay that that's something that they have to deal with that that's not that's

10:34
not really an issue that that I have to deal with that's like what I tell my kids like you're choosing your

10:39
consequence that's right I tell you up front what'll happen if you do the thing if you do the thing you choose that

10:45
consequence that's your that's your choice okay you chose it that you know at that point yeah but it's interesting

10:52
that you and I think that's part of the the polarization to a certain degree it's like by implementing consequences

10:58
you're the mean dad you know what I'm saying in our culture in our world it's like well

11:03
that's just being mean CU I just want I just want continued Grace Grace Grace Grace Grace and Overlook it whether it's

11:10
an expungement right or whatever I'm not saying that that's wrong don't get me wrong but it's interesting that in that

11:16
mindset and I think that's a part of it you know it's like I don't I don't really want the law in my life until

11:26
something somebody offends me sure then I want want the law in my life because I

11:31
want Justice that's exactly right and I think you know how often that translates

11:36
into how polarizing the law can become because it's it's interesting you know

11:41
you and I know of each other I've been in your courtroom before you know what's that because you're attitude

11:48
yeah forgot no but I would have clients or you know that would you know and and it's interesting because you know I

11:55
would always or I would routinely hear well that judge disbo he was connected

12:01
with this person and he's just in that person's pocket you know that kind of thing and it was always an interesting

12:06
role for me because it's like actually's yeah that's that's probably not true but

12:13
you know and I think how often those kind of Dynamics and it leads to that ignorance that you're talking about

12:19
because you know it's like my view of me getting in trouble is you and I'm even

12:26
I'm even mindful of how not not equating you to God but yet from a spiritual

12:32
Dynamic I can see a correlation you know how God extends Grace absolutely through

12:39
Jesus but yet at the same time there is a way you know and and I so I it's kind

12:45
of neat to think about that when we're talking about our desire to extend Grace

12:51
but yet we got to recognize there's a way that that occurs and I think it's

12:57
neat when you think about our forefathers and legislation that we live in this country

13:03
that we do and have this opportunity to talk about these things like this and

13:09
how that models or you know and I think I think if I may say your heart is to

13:14
emulate that that Grace that I compassion well I I appreciate that I I

13:27
think I think at times maybe judges can be scared to to use the

13:33
word grace and mercy you know but I you know My Philosophy do what is right love

13:40
mercy be humble sure that carries over that that should absolutely carry

13:47
over into my role as a judge I tell people you know Mercy's a big word sure

13:53
sometimes the most merciful thing I can do for somebody and I do it is put them in prison sure yeah

13:59
is is send them to rehab facility for 90 days yeah yeah is to not give them a

14:04
bond or to give them a very high Bond you know I I preside over our treatment courts sure when a young person comes in

14:11
and tests positive for for fentanyl yeah I generally will put them in jail not

14:16
because I'm punishing them because I'm trying to save their life yeah and I think that's the most merciful thing I

14:22
can do for a 19yearold boy yep who is addicted yep and his mom can actually

14:29
sleep now that exactly right because she knows her son is actually safe that's

14:35
right and and she's not waiting on that phone call from the police to say we found your son I'm okay with that boy

14:41
hating me for the rest of his life yeah I can lay my head down just fine at night yeah cuz for those four or five

14:48
days where he's drying out yeah we're in the background finding an inpatient facility

14:55
for him to get the help that he needs that he doesn't think he needs to give

15:01
him some tools to maybe have a life where he's living clean and sober yeah and I think

15:08
you know these treatment courts we haven't talked much about that but those being around these

15:16
participants seeing how they struggle and the reason they're struggling is

15:21
because of one thing addiction right what most people going back to the

15:27
ignorance what most people don't understand about court the justice system most

15:34
people who come before me and it's a high percentage 60 70 80% M it's because of drugs and drugs Andor

15:42
alcohol gotcha yeah I mean it's just the reality you know sober people don't do

15:49
as much dumb stuff in quotation marks impaired as as people as people who are

15:54
impaired you know from my own perspective some of the stupidest stuff

16:00
I have done is when I had too much to drink in my life sure you know my younger days and I think many men would

16:08
say the same thing and women would say the same thing when you're dealing with more significant

16:16
uh addictions sure not that alcohol is not significant but you when you're

16:21
dealing with an opiate addiction that that's when individuals are are they're

16:26
chasing their next high yeah they're breaking into a house not because they

16:32
need a television to watch right they're breaking into a house they're not trying to harm anybody

16:38
that they need some money to to get their fix um you know they're they're hanging

16:46
out with people who are addicts bad things happen when we hang

16:52
out with people are addicts you know we we also use drugs when we're hanging out with addicts or we we go along for ride

16:59
to the with the person who's going to buy the drugs and we're we're then charged with with possession of the

17:07
cocaine or possession of the the schedule three controlled substance whatever it is that that the individual

17:14
purchased in the car with us so if

17:20
we if we try to treat the real the root of the problem yeah maybe we do get

17:26
somewhere you know maybe we maybe we actually fix the problem at least for that person mhm and that's why these

17:34
treatment courts are so important and not just treatment courts that's why probation can be really important sure

17:39
if you can hook these folks up with the right resources MH you can change the

17:45
trajectory of their life no doubt absolutely two degree change today is tremendous down the road and it's not

17:51
just and I tell this is what I talk about in the community we're not just changing that person's life

17:59
sure that's great in and of itself I think worth it I yep changing one

18:05
person's life is fantastic but if you let's say that you got a defendant who's been suffering

18:10
from addiction for 25 years been in and out of his children's

18:16
lives two or three wives you know Mom and Dad you know Dad's probably thrown in the towel a long time ago Mama never

18:23
leaves usually mhm uh because that's just how they're made by God's grace correct thank

18:29
goodness yeah but you change that you give a tool for

18:35
that man who's been suffering from addiction for 25 years now all of a sudden his life has changed he's he's living clean and sober he's holding the

18:42
job for the first time in a long time MH he's able to pay rent now the children

18:47
that he hasn't seen in a while they're kind of coming back around and now Mom

18:53
and Dad are kind of coming back around not as parents that are paying for his bills but having a

19:00
regular parent child relationship and now all those friends that he used to have he's got a

19:07
new set of friends right now he's involved in church now he's involved in Celebrate Recovery now he's involved in AA and now he's pouring back into the

19:15
community because yeah he's got the tools and he sees that you know what I've done this yeah and now I want

19:22
to help this young kid I've got something to share there is and that's what happens that's what we see with

19:28
these treatment courts where these people pour back in and I know Justin you you probably and you guys are both

19:34
involved in Celebrate Recovery you guys I'm sure see these same Stories being told and I try to tell the gradu my best

19:41
friends right now are that guy you just said yeah and they did the whole story

19:47
you just described it I mean in fact exactly one of them has been in prison he's been you know he's been through all

19:54
of the junk and he's now at a point where he's changed and like you said all

20:00
of the fam trickling in they're keep bringing them to celebrate recovery for the first time last Friday two of them

20:08
let a thing that's awesome and it was just mindblowing Y and it's exactly this

20:15
that means what you're describing and and it's easy it's so easy to see in

20:20
those individuals when that change occurs cuz there is that if you will even that

20:26
self-confidence and CR would be a god confidence right that it's like being able to say okay this is what God has

20:33
done for me and that's where I used to be but here's where I am and now I'm willing to share right now I have

20:40
something to give where it seemed as if I was just an empty hole that needed to be filled now I'm I'm a source

20:46
absolutely yeah and I just that transformation that yeah that's neat stuff and I and to me those are the most

20:55
powerful powerful stories is when you've got somebody who's been suffering an addiction for decades and they can stand

21:03
up in a room and talk to people half their age or more and say I've been where you are

21:12
heck I've been worse because that's what really helps those folks who I I think anyway who

21:19
were stuck in that addiction that's what gives them hope to know that if that guy can do

21:25
it my gosh I can do it too and if a guy like you tells them hey you're heading towards this don't do that they go yeah

21:32
whatever White Collar you had it all handed to you you don't know what it's like a guy like them has been in that

21:39
right is saying no really 100% don't do it that's exactly how I feel about it I

21:45
I haven't been where they are you know by by the grace of God I haven't uh so that's why I talk to these

21:52
folks who are graduates and you know sometimes I I'll I'll pull them aside I'll I write little notes to each of

21:57
them after they graduate and for the ones who I think are are are strong public speakers I urge them you you need

22:04
to tell your story you need to share this you you are a resource for younger

22:09
people and you know that's a gift yeah it's hard to believe that that's a gift that 20 years of addiction is a GI but

22:16
it's a gift now you got to give it back yeah absolutely it's interesting

22:22
because uh one of our questions was you know uh or I thought of was um what

22:27
makes your what one aspect of your job makes your job the best job in the world

22:33
oh wow I don't know if there's one aspect I do have the best job in the world let me let me start with that um

22:39
you know people thank me all the time thanks for what you do and I say look it I'm honored to do this job I would

22:46
almost do it for free but I have to take care of my family sure um every day is

22:52
different yeah in in my role it's it's very challenging you have some challenging legal issues that that

22:58
really make you think uh that that make you dive uh deeper into case law and and

23:05
and really you know read that Constitution and

23:10
uh but the best part of my job is is helping people kind of along

23:18
those lines of the of the treatment courts and it's not always in treatment court but that's that's where I see it

23:24
the most because I meet with those folks twice a month and I see them at their

23:29
worst and then I get to see them at their at their best and seeing that transformation knowing that you've

23:36
played a very small role and it trust me when I tell you it's not me trying to be humble it's I have a

23:43
very small role in that in that cor well it's interesting because your role it

23:49
represents a single statement so it's small in scope but

23:54
it's not small like often you're the gatekeeper

24:00
to that change correct so I appreciate what you're saying because there's a lot of people in you know treatment handling

24:07
that person working they're doing the work work absolutely but I also think it's important not to downplay what your

24:13
part in it represents it represents the opportunity right gate you're you're

24:20
absolutely correct you know I'm the person that if if they're not doing what they're

24:25
supposed to do they potentially go to prison so I I understand that

24:32
um maybe they're scared at times when they walk into that courtroom uh but

24:37
when I say you know my my it's a small I play a small role there's so many people

24:43
involved in the treatment courts our our substance abuse counselors play a huge role my my

24:49
treatment coordinators that that work at the courthouse play an enormous role in

24:54
constant contact with these folks um you other other providers who were involved

25:01
our probation officers play an enormous role our uh surveillance officer uh Sam

25:09
Brit with the Sheriff's Office plays a huge role constant contact with our

25:14
participants and then at the end of the day the participant is the most important player

25:22
in in the court because they have to they have to do the work do the work you

25:28
know they have to fight through that addiction they have to fight through the slips that invariably occur with some of

25:34
them and and I think you and I would both agree from both of our perspectives well we're talking about that work is

25:40
some of the most sign significant difficult work that any person can do from any Walk of Life like it is not

25:48
just you know it's not just a saying doing the work corre it is

25:54
transformational work difficult often often they're told you got to

26:01
change the people place and things now that might be easy for the three of

26:08
us right might be easy for for Justin say honey we got to move we got to get away from this crowd that we're living

26:13
on on this street yeah it's not easy for most people they don't have the money to do that so you can't change your

26:20
place it's hard to change your friends because you grew up with these people for the last 10 15 20 years maybe you

26:26
grew up here and this this is just your friend group and now this this judge and

26:31
my treatment counselors and everybody that I'm around is saying I I have to get new

26:37
friends it's tough right don't yeah and then you got to change the things that

26:43
that led you here the habits that led you here those are really tough things

26:48
for any of us to do um letting alone want to do them sure in the same

26:54
environment correct that I've grown up in it's correct yeah and those people

26:59
places and things represent a lot they represent safety

27:05
they represent trust represent family identity right so I

27:11
ask very often I ask participants to choose sobriety or their family yeah exactly

27:20
yeah yeah because remember yeah I'm a I'm a huge believer and this is in most

27:27
of of where we are in life I'm a huge believer you're a product of your environment most of us are Christians

27:33
because we grew up in Christian homes most Muslims are Muslim because I grew up in Muslim homes I mean you just use religion as an example I don't think

27:40
many people would argue that concept right that's just that's what I was right yeah

27:46
um a lot of drug addicts grew up in homes with drug addicts a lot of

27:52
Alcoholics grew up in homes with alcoholics sure so if you're going to get out of that

28:00
cycle mhm a lot of times it requires that boundary y

28:06
of mom you're not allowed to my house anymore you're not allowed to come over

28:12
anymore because I'm in a court that I can't be around you because I know

28:17
what's going to happen if I'm around you I can't imagine right what that would be like but that unfortunately is what a

28:23
lot of times it takes sure cuz I think you know when we think about addiction we'd all recognize there's a root that's

28:31
underneath that sure and so often that's handed that root is part of our family

28:37
tree yeah that's given to us by not blaming our parents but recognizing how

28:42
that influence is a part of my legacy if you will right I put that in air quotes

28:48
because it's not necessarily A positive Legacy but it is part of that Legacy it is and to be able to recognize that yeah

28:56
I got a I got yeah I got to plant some new seeds here to create some of my own Roots because

29:03
this this tree isn't getting me where I want to be and it's just yeah I I think

29:10
too presiding over these courts you gain so much perspective as

29:17
to how somebody could get to this spot you know I'll I'll be the first to admit I used to be that guy who says just put

29:25
it down yeah just stop what's the problem stop E look either stop drinking cuz you know

29:30
I've had periods of time I just stopped drinking in my life you felt like I was drinking too much and said you know I'm not going to drink anymore okay I can do

29:36
it why can't you do it right and that's arrogance and ignorance is what it is ignorance yeah so so you know you gained

29:45
this perspective particularly with our female participants like how how did we get

29:51
here so I started asking questions sometimes they're through the

29:57
coordinators cuz they're very private questions that you know probably don't want to share with the public but some

30:04
are willing to share some of the females are willing to share you know when did you start doing drugs I was 12 years old

30:10
is there anything that triggered that I was sexually assaulted by my stepfather

30:16
I was sexually assaulted by so and so I mean so many of our female

30:23
participants it's from trauma and in your ask him

30:29
to right to pass through that trauma without any without any help correct

30:35
whatsoever and don't forget we're dealing with you know a lot of times low socioeconomic M

30:41
um not the greatest level of education and we've been snowballing for

30:49
years you know some of our women 30 40 years old 50 years old they've never

30:54
they've never gotten counseling for being sexually assaulted m you they've been married several times

31:02
none of these things are shocking once you start to peel the onion back a little bit and

31:08
it and I guess that's where I get defensive when I I hear folks in the community all these people you should

31:14
just put them in jail really ignorance what I want them to do is come sit in

31:19
that courtroom I mean don't make you cry I'm almost tearing up thinking about it because you want me to throw her in jail

31:28
because she was raped at 10 years old because that's what you're asking me to do because she was raped at 10 years old because that's really how we got here

31:34
now I'm not saying she shouldn't be punished and right A lot of times she is she's

31:40
been punishing herself for 25 years I'm trying to give her a chance but also

31:47
punishment in correctly done is meant to help correct and so when you punish that

31:54
girl it's because you're saying you will never get what you need to get this way

31:59
the way you're going ever right there's only one way that you even have a chance

32:05
and that's through punishment that's through a correction of behavior right and that's true of like my kids that's

32:11
true of any of us like when we get stuck in our junk like punishment is not meant

32:17
to just be a a placeholder right a place to shove someone to say this is where

32:22
you are now punishment is meant to get us to the other side right does that it

32:28
it is absolutely it done correctly done correctly yes it is that's and you know

32:33
I think people lose sight to I'm not talk about the murderers and the rapist those people need to be punished they

32:40
need to be that's what our prisons are for are people who are dangerous to our community and it's not that people

32:46
committing lower level crimes aren't dangerous to our community but those people we can we can we can fix that we

32:53
can help modify their behavior just by giving them some tools if we just take

32:58
the time and use some resources to help them along the way and at the end of the

33:04
day how much money that saves for people anyway how you can actually transform

33:10
their lives and help transform our community and create a better

33:15
Workforce just by doing the the things that really we should have been doing for the past 25 years I mean we've kind

33:21
of contribute not kind of we've contributed to this problem right by putting Pharmaceuticals out there for

33:28
people to use knowing for years that they were addictive anyway and now we want to look

33:34
at them and say we just quit doing it right why you know qu quit breaking into people's houses quit breaking into

33:40
people's cars and quit doing drugs by gosh and if not we're going to send you to prison and oh by the way the longest I can send you to prison is 10

33:47
months so yeah I've made my community safer for 10 months whoopy Doo yeah I

33:53
haven't done anything to help that individual become better member of

33:59
society yeah promote change right and what's interesting is most of these

34:04
folks want help they want help when they come into that Court they know that this is a gift that their other option is

34:10
prison and they are willing to put in the work doesn't mean they succeed because for a lot of people seeing you

34:17
represents rock bottom and there that's the beautiful thing about that

34:22
opportunity that you have in that room is to see someone

34:28
at rock bottom and no one really knows when Rock Bottom is until you start going up right but so it might be in

34:35
that courtroom where they're seeing you they see what my choices brought me here and depending on what this guy thinks

34:42
could represent a whole different life I never had planned you know sitting in a Cell somewhere whatever or he's saying I

34:50
have an opportunity to make this right yeah right yeah and that Rock Bottom

34:56
position says I'll do whatever it takes to go back up you know and I think that's an

35:02
incredible an incredible opportunity to be in front of that and we you know I see that at Celebrate Recovery

35:08
occasionally usually I'm not the one in front of them that's saying hey here's your choices or whatever but we get to

35:15
see right after that often you know yeah and it's uh seeing someone at at rock

35:21
bottom looking up is the best well I think I think it equates to that shame

35:28
that holds us at times where we are you follow me and as you describe your

35:34
ability to hear people's stories it's actually offering them freedom to a

35:39
certain extent from that shame right because I know you know even it's the

35:45
the I think the most helpful thing I can do sometimes in people's change is being

35:50
able to recognize that there's nothing wrong with you yeah I would be where

35:57
you're had I grown up with the same experience same circumstances and you're operating

36:04
perfectly based on that there's nothing wrong with you you know from a human standpoint

36:09
it's that's a great perspective Mar I I agree but I think that's the freedom I

36:16
the law Freedom you know truth Mercy Grace y i yeah I can't uh yeah you can't

36:25
unconnect them you know and I think there's there's purpose in that so like

36:31
say um that being said Jason I just want to thank you for your time oh thanks for

36:36
having me on on behalf of how we see it how I see it yeah thanks for sharing how you see it I was glad to do it any other

36:44
closing thoughts that You' might like to uh just put out there as I give you just

36:49
a moment to collect I think

36:54
um you know I'm in a I'm in a unique position obviously there's only one Superior Court judge in our County

37:03
and that's that's not lost on

37:10
me I would just say that it's I think it's you show your

37:17
strength by having grace and mercy more than you show your strength of of

37:23
beating a gavel um uh with a mean look on your face you

37:30
know I um I try to make

37:36
sure that everybody that comes into that courtroom I don't make them more anxious than they already are I can do my

37:48
job no matter what it is that I'm doing whether I'm sending somebody to prison for life which I've

37:54
done or whether I'm uh sending somebody out the door telling them to pay the

38:01
court cost and fine and don't do this again I can do it with kindness in my

38:07
heart and I think that's something that we often times lose sight of for all of us sure

38:16
that you know I love that little quote in in a world where you can be anything you know be kind mhm

38:23
um I I think we we just need to extend kindness I have I haven't always done that in my life it's I I remind myself

38:30
of that on a daily basis to to be kind

38:38
and I think it's important I just I think it's an important thing I think it's important in my role as a judge and

38:44
I know that sounds you going back to the TV stuff you know you see the the mean judge and uh you know the the hanging

38:51
judge yeah I don't have any desire to to be known as as a mean judge I want to be

38:57
known as somebody who was fair and just uh and and and merciful uh and somebody

39:04
who who tried to do the right thing and that's that's what I that's what I strive to do and I'm going to follow the

39:10
law doing it yeah so that's how you see it that's how

39:16
I see it yeah anything Justin I I know that kindness was uh was was stirring

39:22
some stuff in you there I could see it h man you're just you're fishing it out [Laughter]

39:28
no I was just going to say I feel you you said you weren't always like that and if you hear enough of those stories

39:35
of the 10-year-old girl you will transform you will and I

39:40
can speak I can say that it's true for both Mark and I in being involved in celebrate covery and hearing those

39:47
stories and I would encourage those who say just throw them in jail please go on

39:52
YouTube Google Celebrate Recovery testimony and just start watching something just start exposing yourself to these

40:01
stories and because we we need that kindness we need that tenderness that

40:06
Mercy that Grace and you will never get that sitting on your high horse you have

40:12
to be able to get off of it go alongside these people hear their stories go to a

40:17
local Celebrate Recovery hear those testimonies that happen every other Friday night

40:22
like because we're not going to help them by criticizing right and by not

40:28
helping them we're not helping our community we're not improving things we're yeah so you don't fix Decades of

40:36
of trauma m in two days right yeah or 10 months in jail yeah just you just don't

40:42
fix it you have to help these you have to give them tools uh to to help these folks so so the next two decades can be

40:49
a hell of a lot better than the previous two yeah yeah no doubt I appreciate yall

40:54
having me yeah we didn't even we didn't even get the topy uh get to that topic of truth but know that I got your uh

41:00
your uh your comment there that you want us to deal with that we're scared of it we're not scared of it because we can

41:06
share how we see it yeah absolutely maybe that's that's for another time it is for another time but but thank you

41:11
and that's how we see [Music]

41:17
it hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

41:24
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh and

41:32
or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out the email is us

41:39
how I see it.click yep I said doclick as in c c k please

41:48
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

41:54
[Music]