Kneeling During National Anthem [ChatGPT-provided topic!]

In today’s episode, we decided to pull an episode out of a hat… An AI ChatGPT hat. We used ChatGPT to generate some random topics using our previous episode titles as the source/inspiration, then put those topics in a randomizer. The topic for today… “Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the national anthem?”

Proceeding with this topic, we discuss how this is a polarizing issue, with Mark’s first reaction being about “freedom” while Justin’s is about “racism.” We unpack the complexities around concepts like patriotism, the right to protest, the meaning of team unity, and more. We touch on how people tend to want simple “heroes” and when those public figures use their platform to be more complex, it can create dissonance. Finally, we find common ground in agreeing athletes should have the right, while still encouraging thoughtful motivations.

We hope you enjoy this episode, and stay tuned for future AI-generated episode topics!


So are we making a choice that we have to go with this topic?

Yes, just because it was generated.

That’s right.

Oh wow What if I know nothing about this topic then you’re gonna carry it since it’s your idea You want to tell them what we’re gonna do Sure, so here’s the deal we have In this chat ATP world Justin has found a AI opportunity to be able to randomly choose topics.

And so he is busily clicking away, trying to get it to work.

And whatever the topic is, that’s what we’re going to go with.

But he’s just like a gopher.

He’s just got his eyes right there and he is focused.

~There we go.


Now he’s back.

~So the intensity has gone out of his vision.

~You didn’t tell him I was sitting here programming.

~Well, I didn’t know that’s what you got.

That’s the clicking part.

I said you were busily clicking away.

So I can’t even see the font on your screen.

I’m going to be honest.

~Well, we can zoom in here.

~No, no, it’s all good.

I, yeah.

~Can you read that?

~I can.

Get a topic.

~ Excomation point.

~ Excomation point.

~ All right, so this to clarify is a P.



(laughs) – I took all of our episode titles that we’ve done so far.

~ Okay.

~ And I put them in chat, GPT, and I said, generate more topics for a podcast episode that has episodes titled, and then I put a list of all of our titles.

~ Okay.

~ And then it generated– – Did you put anything in there about polarizing?

~ I might have, I can’t remember the exact prompt, But the key part for me was that I gave it all the episode titles we’ve done so far.


And so then it spit out some topics.

I bet.


Welcome to how I see it with me, Mark Pratt

and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations


And there were some repeats I removed, like ones we’ve already done or repeats of itself.

So I removed them.

Why would it give us ones that are repeated?

It’s not that random.

It’s not actually intelligence.

a natural language model that creates predicted text based on what you provide.

That’s what people, that’s a chat GPT.

It’s not like this sentient being.

It’s basically generating text that looks like text that would be a response to what you ask.


Does that make sense?


Which is a form of intelligence.

Yeah, exactly, but like it doesn’t always know that text that generated isn’t correct or did you really answer your question?

It’s just generating text that feels like, you know, like which matches answers, you know what I mean?

It’s like, it’s interesting.

It’s not as smart as you’d think, but it’s smarter than it’s very smart.

I never thought it was as smart, I’ll be honest with you.

Well, how often have you used chat TPT?

I haven’t done that.

But I figure if it’s just all the information that’s out there and it’s just putting it together in such a way that says, okay, yeah, this connects with what I was given.

And it does it real fast.

I can’t respect the speed.

Yes, does it real fast?

And it can provide, here’s the thing, it can provide a wrong answer, but it can also provide a better answer, right?

So like– A way that we didn’t think about it before.

Right, right.


more like a response that’s generated from inputs that are more accurate than, like one of the examples is you can, like people have done this and kind of shown an example of like asking it counselor type question, psychiatrist type questions, like what do you do and you want to hurt yourself for example.

And like the answer returns is really good.

And actually almost has a kindness to it.

~ Oh wow.

It’s because it’s generated from all the answers to that across the internet.


I don’t know.

It’s just kind of interesting.

I think you would find it interesting if you used it.

I probably would.

What you just shared with me was interesting.

So yeah.

So here’s what we’re going to do.

That being said though, I still, you know, you, so what it’s taken from is all across, because I know we’ve talked about, you know, technology before and everybody has their silo.

So it goes outside of my silo for that information in many cases.

So that would be, I could see that being a good thing.

~ Yeah, absolutely.

~ Because it gets other input, other thoughts that I might not necessarily have in my own individual social media silo type thing where I’m only getting certain input.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah, I could see that being a positive thing.

~ Yep.

And yeah, absolutely.

And resources that maybe you’ve never had, right?

So it’s like– Sure.

The cool thing– and there’s one called Google Bard, which is like– Boyard or CBT, but it’s Google’s.


No lawyers.

Yeah, the Bard exam.

Oh, Bard?


Now Bard as in– B-A-R-D.

Smart guy, I think.

Oh, see.

Bard is like a wise person.

Yeah, I give you that.

find Bard.

Oh, a professional poet and singer.

Oh, yeah, as among the ancient Celts whose occupation was to co dot dot dot.

Oh, my job.


So Bard is a wise singer.

Yeah, typically writes or writes music artistic person, I guess more.

I thought it was more of a wise, but yeah, I was wrong.

It’s like a performer type thing.

So yeah, it’s a Google Bard, Google Bard has nothing to do with law.

That’s right.


Well, maybe it does, but you know, it will typically spit out some resource links to resources where it generated content from.

So that’s one of the benefits of Google Barred over something like chat GPT.

It’s like chat GPT will give you an answer.

You have no idea if it’s right and you don’t know what sources are, where Google Barred will often include some sources that kind of were referenced it.

So you can at least check if it’s right based on that source.

if it’s applicable.

~ Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that’s kind of cool.

~ Just like we had a misunderstanding about bard.

~ That’s right.

~ It depends on your definition.

~ That’s right, it does.

(laughs) The definition of something can change everything.

~ The spelling probably makes a big difference there.

But either way.

~ So the idea is that we are going to pick a random topic.

We don’t know what it is.

It’s chat GPT generated.

So we’ve already read and seen the list.

~Sitting up in my chair.

~I think Mark forgot that.

But we have reviewed all of these topics at one point.

~We have?


~Even the one we’re going to get right now?


I showed you the list of all the ones that generated.

~Oh, was that what we saw earlier?

I thought you were just– -Today, no.

It was a different day.

~Oh, well, then, see, I’m not responsible for anything that happened today.

It’s a different day.

~Anyway, the point is they’re pre-reviewed topics.

I don’t know that we were necessarily excited about Oh, do we need a drum roll for this morning?

Yeah, do I have a drum?

I think you do have a drum roll, but we don’t need one.

So I remember what button it is.

It’s all we know what happens when I push wrong.

But so that being said, do you have a topic ready at this moment?

I have to click get a topic.

Oh, so that’s all you have to do.

So I have to do.

You’re going to click that and click the magic button.

And so here’s a drum roll.


Oh, he had to click twice.

Nothing has happened so far.

So yes, this is what happens in real time podcasting.

This is what happens in real time programming.

Oh, programming.


Let’s try this again.

Okay, so I need another – Okay, well he went back to another page, did another click, and now he’s back to get a topic.

(imitates ) – All right.

~ Nice.

~ Ooh, and the screen reads.

~ Ooh, sure.

~ I think you’re gonna like this one more.

~ Well, this is better than I thought it would be.

~ Sure.

~ Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the national anthem?

So, that’s so– – So, indeed.

what I read that, what word came to your mind?

Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the actual– – As in yes or no?

~ No, it came to your mind.

~ Oh, racism.

~ Really?

~ Yeah.

~ Okay, ’cause freedom came to my mind.

~ Okay.

~ Ha!

~ So there is your two polarizing concepts, right?

~ Ooh.

~ The I would argue.

~ Oh, Justin’s already starting to argue, I like it.

~ No, I’m saying, I think that’s what makes it polarizing.

those two words, we just managed to magically pull them out of my soap.

What do you think?

Because we haven’t done.



Freedom was one of.



Now that you mentioned it, freedom was on our list of topics.

And so, yeah, that was racism.


But we chose not to do that one until we can have a voice, you know, kind of like.



To stick to it.



Which I’m excited about doing that at some point.

two white dudes, you know, there’s only one race represented here, so.

~ Yep.

~ But interestingly enough, yeah, I’d say this topic ties into both of those things.

~ Sure.

~ And I would say is kind of the polarizing war cry, maybe both sides.

~ Sure.

~ Right?

What do you think?

~ Yeah, I agree with you.

So in that question, should, would you have a yes or no answer?

~ Should athletes be allowed to kneel during the national anthem?

I believe they should be allowed.

~ I hear you.

~ Yeah.

~ Whether I agree that they should do it, like it’s a good thing or not or whatever.

~ Whether you agree with it or not.

~ Whether I agree with it or not, yes.

~ Sure.

~ Because of freedom.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ And I’m with you there.

It’s not something that I’m gonna condone or I’m gonna necessarily end.

~ Let’s get real serious with it.

~ Okay.

~ And I’m not real serious.

Real practical.

You coach the local team, soccer, for instance, I think you just coach John a little bit.

High school team, whatever.

Would you allow that for your athletes?

I think for me, I would have to allow that in that sense and here again.

Because we can say one thing, but if you put it, sorry, if you put it in a real world situation.

Yeah, and I like the real world situation and I think it, man, I think a conversation has to occur and in that analogy you gave my history, I’m thinking of a young teen.

And I think there’s an aspect where that young teen still needs to be able to have that right and there would definitely be a discussion that went along with it because I think there is the dynamic of team and being a unified.

Is that something that we understand and it adds to our ability to accept one another and still work together as a team?

Or is it something that tends to just create isolation and not that everybody always has to go along with whatever the team or the coach decides.

I’m not going there.

But yet, I think in some cases, it has led to divisiveness that isn’t beneficial to the entire team.

And here again, that’s just my perspective on it because, yeah, and granted, I’m kind of thinking of that era, you know, where it started and, you know, the NFL did it start with was it.

Yeah, Colin Kaepernick, right?



And so like you say, you know, and here again was, you know, based on who he was, his, you know, inputs, that kind of thing, it’s just okay.

And I would recognize that from an athletic standpoint, other athletes would have more credibility for me personally than Colin Kaepernick, even though nothing against his ability or, well, but yeah, just thinking about that as far as I think there’s something to be said for, I’m doing this for a reason or I’m doing this for publicity.

And I think that can play into it, but I’m not trying to detail the topic either.

For you.

~ Well, it’s not derailing the topic that’s very much, you know, very much on topic, the topic that was randomly generated for it.

~ Sure.

~ I do think that’s interesting with Kaepernick, ’cause I do think people will, I don’t know if this is necessarily what you’re saying or I guess I would have to ask you what your implications are but a lot of accusation that it was done for publicity.

But if you look at the actual output of it, I would say he’s not playing, he didn’t play.

Like it was a negative impact to his career.

Pretty significantly, right?

And so, you know, I take a little bit issue when people say, “Oh, he only did for publicity.

” It could be true.

I’m not gonna say the initial effort wasn’t, but I also think we’re humans and we’re multifaceted.

I would imagine that even if that was part of it, part of his motive in the beginning was thinking, and I’ll get publicized or whatever, I’ll be whatever that his motives were genuine in the sense of I want to draw attention to these matters, of Black Lives Matter, that kind of thing.

So I think, but as far as outcome of that, he did gain publicity.

~ No doubt.

~ He certainly didn’t, I don’t know that he’s making more money than he would have had he not done that.

~ Sure.

~ You know what I mean?

~ No, I hear you there.

~ What do you think?

~ Well, and I think, you know, influence is a, is a currency.

Yeah, is a currency and you know, and I guess I’m just thinking about it in that context of, you know, people that I, you know, I’m not a big fan of Jubries, I’m not Jubries, I’m who’s the guy that just retired, huh?

Play for me.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Brady, Brady, Tom Brady, you know.

Manning was coming to my mouth and I was like, I know that’s not what you mean.

~ But no, that’s, you know, to where, you know, that person, you know, Tom Brady has a different level of respect from my perspective to where I, and here again, now that I’m saying that, I have to look at it.

Okay, is that, is that a black white thing?

Because I can’t argue, you know, the fact that, you know, Tom Brady’s a white guy.

do I respect him more?

But I think about what I initially came to mind is someone who I respect from a level of athleticism and what he has accomplished and performance.

And it’s like, okay, so if, and I would have to admit that if someone like him, okay, or to Neil, I would tend to say, okay, that’s somebody that feels very strongly about what they’re doing and I can respect that more so than if it’s somebody that I see, you know, has a, is typically on the edge of that publicity, athleticism type dynamic.

He, even Cam Newton, you know, is seemed almost like you could predict his demise to a certain degree ’cause, and I’m not saying he didn’t, might have had some mental health issues going on.

But it almost seemed like you could see who he was changing, you know, just on who he was and the stances he took.

And it’s like, it seemed as if his athletic career kind of went downhill from there.

~ Yeah.

So– – I guess the question is chicken or egg, right?

Like, did the athletic career dip because of the focus shift or did the focus shift because the athletic career was dipping in it was a way to become relevant.

~ Or would have– – Or would have– – My athletic career give me more influence.

And then that influence tended to create, shift my views and I might have went too far down that rabbit trail.

And go ahead.

~ Yeah, or yeah, any other variations, ’cause I think there’s, yeah.

I also think, as I said, humans are multifaceted, but we like our heroes to be one facet that we can understand and wrap ourselves around, or if they’re gonna be multifaceted at least, make sure all the other facets align with the things I care about.

You know what I mean?

It’s like, I think it’s– – You like our heroes.

~ Yeah, we like superheroes, right?

Like Superman, he’s who he is, and Flash runs fast, and you know, but like, we don’t wanna know about their political opinions or whatever, it’s like, you know what I’m saying?

We like to know them for the one thing we know them for.

And I think when it becomes, when there’s– – They don’t want to know their political opinions or you want their political opinions to align with yours.

~ I think either one, right.

I guess that’s kind of my point.

It’s like, let the main thing be the main thing because that’s what I care about with you, right?

~ Sure.

~ I’m not saying this is good, but I just feel like that’s kind of a tendency for humanity is like, I want my heroes to be simple.

~ Yeah.

~ Does that make sense?

~ Yeah.

The one thing I know them for is that that’s what they’re about and that’s what I can get behind or not get behind If you hate Tom Brady or you like him, it’s like well, he’s someone who wins no matter what, right?

So that’s his thing we all know.

Yeah, it’s either he’s a villain to you or he’s a hero But either way, it’s like that’s the thing.

That’s what we get out of Tom I don’t there’s nothing more.

Yeah, you know And and I feel like we tend to want to do that with all of our heroes in it Most of our heroes make it easy because that’s where the money is right is capitalizing on the thing sure That’s the money maker right yeah, whatever that thing is and don’t distract from that because it will distract from You know the outcome the income I should say the money right so I don’t know I and maybe that’s a simplistic idea, but I do feel like I do feel like that’s Seems to be true where we like our heroes to be simple and no I hear where you’re coming from that And so when they shift from that it gets confusing for when they become complex.

Yeah, it’s like well do I want to be my hero It’s still my hero.

Yeah, sure.

It’s like Well now I have to villainize him because he has an opinion I don’t like even though I loved his this thing.

I loved about him.

Yeah, why can’t love that either?

You know and I feel like I’ve seen I said, you know, I’ve seen that through this conversation where it’s like Well, even that wasn’t that great.

You know, it was like You know people used to be fans that you know they now can Villainize him, you know and it’s like no he was good at some things You know it’s far sports go obviously he had some strengths and some weaknesses He wasn’t the best athlete in the world and I think that’s what we’re kind of talking about so it kind of makes it harder to Respect him sadly Because that’s not all he is It’s his ability to be an athlete in his performance.

To kind of to your point, your tendency would be to respect a Tom Brady level of effort for them to switch into this political stance.

You’d hear it a little bit better.

And it makes perfect sense why that’s true.

You’re basically capitalizing on the social capital you’ve built up.

Like you’re catching in on that.

And we’re saying you’re borrowing too much.

for a lot of people for calling cappering.

It’s like you’re borrowing against credit you don’t have.

~ Yeah.

~ Does that make sense?

~ Yeah.

~ It does.

~ That’s a lot of stuff.

~ And I still wanna come back to when I think about it in that context of kneeling for the national anthem.

Okay, our tendency or the team dynamic if you would be to tend to stand for the national anthem.

when you think about standing kneeling, but when you think about the national anthem, what is that to you?

~ Well, that’s a good question, and really it comes to the heart of the matter, but yeah, for me, it’s a very patriotic and appreciative vibe for me, and kind of pride, you know, go back to our conversation about pride, national pride and, yeah.

I would even say to a certain degree, an indoctrinated affection and respect.

~ Oh.

~ Does that make sense?

~ Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, I was processing indoctrinated, yeah.

~ Like from the time you were young, – Yeah, this is what you did.

~ Yeah, exactly.

~ Yeah.

~ And you’re not saying indoctrination’s necessarily a bad thing at that point because you’re taught a level of patriotism if you would.

~ Correct.

~ And that doesn’t have to be, that’s not necessarily a bad thing even though in our culture at times that aspect or patriotism may not necessarily be valued because it has a tendency to take indoctrination from a negative standpoint.

~ The level of patriotism.

can be problematic.

Like the degree to which you are patriotic can become problematic, but also one would argue that this is based on the word patriot, which is based on the idea of the original patriots who went to the nth degree to make this country happen, right?

So it’s like the level of their patriotism was death, right?

Like we’ll do, you know?

~ Sure, yeah.

~ So it’s like, it’s a hard, it can be a hard thing kind of wrestle with in my brain of like how much patriotism is too much in the sense of sure, you know, alienating others or, you know, us versus them kind of idea or the ability to fight for an idea that matters to the degree that I’d be willing to die.

You know, it’s like, I respect the fact that our forefathers, the original Patriots did that.

Yeah, I would take that away from them.

But at the same time, if someone was that extreme today, would I appreciate that?

I don’t know.


I feel like that would be very uncomfortable for me.

A patriot today would be unsavory to a certain degree.


Although if we are being oppressed, I think that’s part of it, right?

The environment that they were in was very clear oppression to a degree, right?

and there was a very clear evil that to point to to say we have to find that evil.

And I think if that’s the case today still, it would be much easier.

I don’t know, Mark.

I don’t know.

I feel like it’s complicated.

Yeah, it is complicated.

And I give that, you know, and yeah, I mean, yeah, Because we can have all of our conspiracy theory type ends out there that, you know, rail against, you know, big brother and other things like that.

And yet there is a part of me that would say, would we, I mean, I think about it even at times, granted, we’re paying our own government taxes, but you know, we, I routinely hear, you know, the Patriots, you know, or the of our forefathers would be rolling over their inner graves based on the amount of tax that we pay.

And granted, we’re not paying it to a foreign dictator.

And so that becomes a difference.

~ Yeah, their rallying cry was taxation without representation.

~ Exactly.

~ So that’s what’s– – One could certainly argue that that’s similar to what we’re– – Are we represented, I don’t know.

~ Yeah.

~ And yeah, I’m still, I appreciate that insight or that perspective, and I’m still bringing it back to that, ’cause I think it is for me what those two, the athlete part matters very little to me in this part, because of that, yes, athletes may have unnecessary amount of publicity, or not unnecessary, but you understand where I’m coming from.

And I think, you know, I would dare say, you know, athletes, actors, you know, they’re kind of both in that.

What did I say?

~ Yeah.

~ It was the other day I was, I was watching something or seeing something.

Oh, I went to the movies, that’s what it was.

And, you know, there’s a person that’s, you know, I like how we’ve adopted this influencer title.

~ Yeah.

~ For somebody’s job name, you know, it’s like actor/influencer.

~ That’s right.

~ It’s like, huh.

That’s my job.

You know, that’s what I do.

It’s like well isn’t everybody an influencer to a certain degree?

Can I can I explain the concept of an influencer?

Of course, but then we’re gonna come back to this.

All right quick aside So influencers usually comes from the social media side sure the whole point is People will pay me to communicate their message because I can influence sure right so if you have a YouTube Right or gone you can whatever it’s like if I show your product and you know promote it I am an influencer and therefore you should pay me lots of money So that there literally is like they’ve turned it into a career my number of Instagram followers Makes me an influencer which means you should pay me to show your product sure you know what I mean So that’s kind of the genesis combination of a marketing Yeah, type perspective.


Yeah, yeah, but it is it is very funny and I know I think that’s it’s like huh I’m an actor slash influence.

I’m a podcaster slash influencer.

I Like it I like it put that after your your names.

You’re just gonna have to print business Podcast or slash influence.


I like it a lot.

Yeah, but I’m coming back to that We have to start calling ourselves that so that we’ll start getting paid to do this thing.


But so we can put should influencers, should actors, be allowed to kneel, for me that does come back to freedom.

And I’ll be honest, it’s been made, I think it’s been may become more relevant.

I think for me, since John has gone in the military.

And this is a conversation in some ways that we’ve had because he’s basically said to me, “No, I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I believe that everybody should have the freedom to be able to do so.

And then it’s like, at that point, it didn’t matter so much what my personal perspectives were.

I mean, granted, but at that point, it’s like, yeah, it is about the freedom to be able to choose.

And I think it is about the ability to, as you kind of alluded to, cash my influence in in such a way that says, okay, are you going to join me in this?

And I’m going to allow you’re You’re going to allow yourself to be influenced by me to see that there a problem exists based on how I see it, how that individual, whether it’s an athlete.

And I think part of where you were coming from and prior to that is I think individuals can be so out of touch that at the same time they don’t have the credibility that they We think when we think of that terminology influencer you and I almost tend to laugh just a little bit granted.

It’s a title It’s a real thing But it doesn’t necessarily mean that oh, I’m gonna go do Exactly what that person is telling me to do because of their influence in my life Yeah, and I think that’s where this kneeling for the national anthem comes into play.

It’s like okay It’s gonna it’s gonna bring some attention.

I won’t use the word publicity but it’s gonna bring some attention and is it going to Create what I desire to create or is it not and I think individuals You know need to have that Freedom to be able to kneel because I think it is a it is a an opportunity to kind of like to oppress.

You know, we need to be able to say that this person is doing that and not fear that there will be some rebuttal, some retaliation against us just because we’re bringing this to the light.

~ Yeah.

~ And I think that’s what’s at the basis of this question.

~ Yeah.

~ From that fundamental right to be able to have the freedom to do something different than what I have been respectfully and indoctrinated into from a patriotic standpoint.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah, and like it or not, like Kaepernick or not, believe he deserved, you know, he had the social capital or not, it started an intense national conversation that’s lasted till, I mean, today we’re at chat GPTs, giving it as a topic, right?

like I would argue that he probably did what he set out to do.

In a sense, although, you know, I have spoken to him and I can’t remember even hearing him talk about it.

So I can’t say that, but I guess that’s just an assumption I’m making that it created the conversation that he was trying to create.

~ Sure.

~ And you know, again, we’re multifaceted, so.

I’m sure to some degree he wants the credit for that conversation, but I also think to some degree He probably is happy that it’s gone on past him.

Does that make sense?

Sure If it’s huh if he was doing it for the reasons that he was saying he was doing it Then I think he would be happy to say it It started with me, but it didn’t end with me and it went grew past me and that’s great Because that was not the purpose was it for it to be about me sure, you know I would hope I would think that’s kind of his stance on him.

But again, we have to get him in here and ask him.


You have his contact.

I think you’re the influencer in the room.

I got his Instagram.

I’m sure I could look up his Instagram profile and slide him a DM.



That’s how you got Duma.

That’s right.


That’s right.

Elias Duma.

But yeah, I think– It was Dumber though.


It was Dumber.

But– You’ve always got– That’s a sound right.

But anyway.

I just remember that’s how we were saying that.

We were saying– We didn’t like ending.

Like, is it Dumer?

No, it’s definitely Dumber.

It’s just the way it is, just like it sounds.

Yeah, I definitely think they should be allowed.

I mean, I think– back to the rubber hits meets the road question about if it was my team.

I think there are some days in this conversation where I would have been like, if you’re on my team, you’ll stand.

Because that’s the respect you have for me as your coach who says this.

The respect you should have for a general reverence, I guess would be the right thing.

And then there are other days where I would have done the opposite.

Like if you believe this is right, I’m going to respect that with you.

As long as you’re doing, I would encourage them.

I want you to be doing it for the right reasons.

I want you to think about this.

I also want you to recognize that there are consequences to this.

Maybe maybe today, maybe not, but maybe eventually you’re trying to get a job and they see a picture of you kneeling in high school and they think, I don’t want this kind of kid in my, you know, I mean, I think it would be important for them to understand there are consequences.

And if that’s if you’re willing to do it for those with those things in mind, then I can respect that.

I can, you know, and I, I don’t agree.

I don’t think I wouldn’t do that, but I, you know what I mean?

Yeah, so there are days where I would have probably fell on both sides of that.

Yeah, you know, and on middle-aged white dude So of course that would probably shift Depending on my growing up circumstance and the color of my skin and all those things.

Yeah, you know, and I’ve read You know, it’s it was a national conversation for a while so I read a lot about it on both sides and That I think that’s really where my yeah, my mind was changed right to the degree where I could say I Understand it a lot better and I don’t hate it anymore We’re originally it was just a poly You know I mean because of the the lack of reverence and when I started to understand Some of the facets of it.

I gained a respect for it.

Yeah, that makes sense And it’s interesting you’re thinking about the movie Miracle, where the hockey, where we play Kurt Russell.

Kurt Russell.



That famous line, he says, you know, where they’re going back and forth.

The name on the front of your jersey is a whole lot more important than the name on the back.

And I was thinking about that.

I think there is, because I was thinking from what you were saying, you know, I think there is something to be said.

And I think the military is another good example of that.

You know, we don’t always get the choice when we put a uniform on.

Yeah, you follow me.

And I think there can be something to be said for, you know, that even the ability to follow when I disagree, because I am wearing a uniform and and granted, a jersey from my perspective is a part of that.

So I would say a coach has that ability to be able to say, like you were asking me, and yet from my seat, that person has that freedom, but I’m also thinking about it in that context of, sometimes when you put a uniform, when you put a jersey on, you have to set your fundamental rights aside to be able to choose something differently, because I’m going to recognize that I may not have the full picture.

And, you know, hopefully from, you know, military standpoint, those above me do.

And they’re making choices based on the best interest of our country, that kind of thing.

So that was you, you kind of brought that up to where yeah, that is something to be said for the sake of a team and unity and see.

But go ahead.

Excellent point and I agree with that.

And I think that needs to be at the forefront of your decision making.

Do you understand that you are representative of this uniform?


And all the things that that implies, and Are you still willing to do this?

Does that make sense?

Because I think that’s part of the conversation is to say it’s worth it.

I think that as part of the conversation of why it was done is it’s worth it for the benefits that they were trying to achieve each individual.

They probably all have similar or maybe different reasons.

but is it worth that to gain that?

And I think that’s where the discussion lies is like, just because they have the, that’s, it’s so hard, just because they have the uniform doesn’t mean they shouldn’t protest.

~ Sure.

~ And yet that’s kind of what I was saying about it.

If it was my team, I wanted them to understand the value of that uniform.

~ Yeah.

and how what this unity can do for that uniform, you know, what that uniform represents.

I don’t know, it’s like, it’s such a hard thing for me ’cause again, I’ve just moved from the polarized ends of it to where it’s just like, it’s a tough one for me.

~ So I’m gonna bring this back to you personally, of course.

when you’re at that point of almost saying, I’m not sure whether my team, is that more about the fact of you being the coach of that team?

And it seems as if your authority is being called into question as the ability to lead that team in a unified manner?

~ Yes.

~ Okay.

~ That would be a big part of it for sure.

Yeah, I would I wouldn’t be able to remove that from my decision like I would want to I would want to say that but I To be on I’m sure that would be a factor in deciding in a if I if I allowed them to it would be To fight it would be fighting that concept because yeah, you know the approval thing I want everyone to think I’m a good coach who has it under control, okay?

I think I would also go, you know, some people are gonna approve of me more because I allowed this so yeah, you know but I think that would definitely be part of it.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ And I think that’s, it is interesting when we think about it from a personal or personality standpoint, what does it mean to be a team?

~ Yeah.

~ And I think, I don’t necessarily see myself as a good team person.

And I’m not saying I’m anti-team.

I enjoy, you know, I enjoy when we play Frisbee.

I enjoy being part of a team But yet at the same time I’d be the first to it.

Well, well, yeah, there’s there’s times when I’m just I’ll break away Because I may not necessarily, you know be feeling unified in that and it’s like I’m still gonna do my own thing Yeah, so I think you know, that’s a I think that plays into this question.


Yeah, yeah – Yeah, and every person has a different value on the concept of team.

Your value of is less, maybe a little bit less than other teammates, right?

Based on what you’re saying.

Maybe your respect for the concept of team is like, yeah, it matters, but not that.

~ Oh, it definitely matters.

~ Right, like I’m not.

~ It definitely matters, but on a continuum, it’s like maybe you don’t care about the concept as much as some other team members who think You should only care about the team, you know, ’cause that’s certainly been part of this conversation too.

It’s only about the team and you’re letting your team down.

~ Sure.

You just let the whole team down.

~ That’s right, that’s right.

And you know, for some of them, they’d say, if that’s what it takes to get this conversation going, it’s totally worth it.

But for the people who team is of a higher importance, it’s not worth it, right?

So I think that, yeah, people are multifaceted, you know?

~ I appreciate your bringing that into it, ’cause I think that is a part of what made this such a polarizing topic so early on.

And it is interesting to, you know, when we unpack it and it’s different components, you know, of that one sentence, you know, it does make a difference.

And I think about it even, you know, when you think about national anthem, you know, our country song, if you will, country rallying cry.

That’s a, that is a, – Yeah.

And one thing I found out to this conversation is that one of the verses we don’t sing is very racist.

It has a, a, a, a, a part of it that talks about slaves, I think, or something.

~ Gotcha.

~ And so I was like, ooh.

~ That’s kind of gross.

~ What a deal with that.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

~ Like, yeah, and even the constitution was it that had the three fifths.

like a slave was a three-fifths of a person or something.

~ Oh, yeah.

~ It’s like some of those things we hold dear, you know, they were created with slavery as just part of reality.

~ Sure, in a context.

~ In a context of that’s just our reality.

It wasn’t premeditated, like we want this embedded for the rest of time, it’s like, no, this is our reality.

A slave is a three-fifths of a person.

They’re almost a person, but not quite, you know?

is like how we thought of them, which is gross, right?

~ Sure.

~ And then again, the national anthem having, you know, verbiage in it, that is that disrespectful of a whole section of human race, is that makes the whole thing very fuzzy for me, and like, “Oh, gross.

” ‘Cause I love the, I mean, that was your first question, is what is the national anthem make you?

Yeah, it has these beautiful connotations for me, but then when I find out, there’s this hidden third verse is kind of like, not unlike a lot of organizations where it’s like, so much good, but then there’s that closet with the skeletons in it, you know, whether it’s our family or even my own, you know, self, like, there’s certain parts of us we hide, you know, or don’t want people to know about.

~ Yeah.

~ And I think, man, that’s true of our country too, you know, it’s like, it’s so great, but there’s no skeletons and things we don’t want people to know about.

And yet I think just like in my personal life, being able to admit that and bring it out of the closet and work through it and address it.

It’s like, I think part of having a healthy organization or personhood, and I think that’s what this national conversation kind of did is drag that cloth that those skeletons out of the closet.

And some people are like, how dare you show the world our skeletons?

And I think the same thing in a lot of people or families where it’s like, how dare you talk about the fact that our family has alcoholics in it?

Like you had no right.

And you know, it’s like, but for me, you know, but for me personally, like or that person personally, it was very important for them to have a healthy, honest dialogue about that in their recovery.

Does that make sense word?

But there’s always gonna be some people who are offended by those skeletons being shown.

And I understand that too.

And yet is it, I would like to think that healthiness on the other side of bringing those skeletons out and clearing them out really.

No doubt.

And admitting like, yeah, there’s a third verse, we should throw out of that thing and make it officially not a thing or whatever or, you know, official.


And I think, and I hear your point and it’s interesting.

That’s this could be a topic for another time.

You know, even when I hear, you know, that part, we, there’s a third verse that we should to throw out of that thing.

I’m willing to recognize, you know, yeah, there’s a third verse that doesn’t, you know, I may not necessarily align with, but, and I think this is where we comes into the, from my perspective, might become more of the woke dynamic.

Is, you know, it’s like, we want to change things just because, and granted, I’m not saying it’s agreement, but I’m saying we want to change things and just ignore that part of history.

But I think there is something to be said for understanding that that makes sense based on that context.

And I don’t necessarily have to agree with it today, but I don’t have to rewrite that song or rewrite history based on the fact that that time existed.

And I think there is a value in that ability to say, “Huh, I didn’t know that.

” and I don’t necessarily agree with that.

~ Right.

~ And yet we’re, you know, and I go ahead.

~ Well, we’re just, again, such a polarizing humanity.

It’s just, we desire those polar opposites.

So we wanna say, well, if you sing the national anthem, you do agree with that third verse.

~ No, I hear you.

~ You can’t help but condone it if you sing it.

And it’s like, well, that’s not true at all because– – Exactly.

those first two verses, I really agree with them.

~ The first 20 years of your life, you had no idea they even existed.

~ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it’s, but we, you know, there’s that tendency too to kind of make that a polarizing thing.

Yeah, I like what you’re saying about the woke thing and kind of revising history or, you know, erasing, you know, bad parts of history.

I think that’s unwise.

I definitely don’t think we should learn from.

Yeah, and I think– Not in a rationalizing, justifying standpoint, but in the ability to say yes.

If you erase it from history, you don’t get to learn from it.

And I think if anything, we should bring it to the surface in a way to learn from it.

You know what I mean?

I do.

So– Yeah.

And I think– let’s just use in this example.

I can’t remember actually ever hearing that that should be removed from the song.

I’m just, I made that.

~ No, I understand that.

~ I could see value in that thing as a country, we decided that this song is, we’re gonna remove that from the official version that we call our national anthem.

And here’s the reasons why.

~ Sure.

~ We don’t believe in three-fifths of a person anymore.

That’s bunk, like we remove that.

So we’re also removing this concept.

And that song still exists in its previous form.

And that’s an understanding of like, that’s the history we come from or working to move away from that.

It also kind of ties into the statues being knocked down, confederate soldiers and stuff.

Yeah, that’s probably a side, different conversation.

~ Yeah, but I agree.

~ But it’s very interesting.

~ Yeah, no doubt.

Well, Justin, I appreciate the topic this morning.

~ That was a good one.

Good job, chat, GPT.

~ There you go.

~ Yeah.

~ Yeah.

Good job, Justin.

We might have to start a series called the chat GPT series.

~ Ooh, that’d be a separate.

~ I kinda like the random, ’cause we’ve done that before, where we brought a topic the other one didn’t know about.

~ Yeah, the surprise aspect is kind of fun.

~ And this has some surprise to it.

~ That’s right, yeah.

And I appreciate the, and here again, I’m working on my levity, I’m working on just having to be The ability to have some fun.

Yeah, pull it out there.



Thank you, Justin.

This is how we see it.


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