Mark:

Morning, Justin.

Justin:

Good morning, Mr. Mark.

Mark:

All right. How are you?

Justin:

I like that softball on a on a T. I’m dandy, Mark. I am dandy.

Mark:

I’m glad to hear it, Justin. It’s good to see you. You’re looking dandy this morning.

Justin:

Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I feel dandy, so

Mark:

Good.

Justin:

It’s a good dandy morning.

Mark:

Yes it is.

Justin:

A little crispy too.

Mark:

It is. Not as crispy as yesterday morning, but yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

The sun’s coming up. Yeah, it’s g it’s it’s uh it’s tough getting the evenings are nice, but it’s it’s fun getting used to those longer days.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Wait, the evenings are nice because you have more sun, you mean?

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. The days are getting longer and you notice it well time change of course occurred.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But yeah, at this time of day it’s not like I necessarily need a lot of light and yet you can see the sun starting to come up. And so at the end of the day you get a lot more light. It’s kinda kinda neat.

Justin:

Yep. It’s uh yeah, I very much favor having more sun in in the evening.

Mark:

I bet you do.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. So I’m

Justin:

are we in daily daylight savings time now? Age old question.

Mark:

I think so.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

See, that’s weird to me because I would think the winter you would want to save daylight. Hmm.

Mark:

No, you just want to hibernate in wintertime.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and

Justin:

Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations. All right. Take a sip of my coffee. Sorry about that. No concerns. So today’s topic. Very polarizing. Polarizing

Mark:

by.

Justin:

Brought to you by what what is it brought to you by?

Mark:

How I see it

Justin:

Brought to you by how I see it. Sponsored by our

Mark:

sponsor.

Justin:

I like it. If you want to send us money, uh We may or may not mention your name.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

So, you know.

Mark:

Well, if you’re a big enough business the where you desire, yeah, we could we could offer endorsements.

Justin:

Oh.

Mark:

Yeah We

Justin:

we need to go back to that episode where we talked about this.

Mark:

Would that be a change on my part?

Justin:

It might be, I can’t recall.

Mark:

Yeah. Uh

Justin:

was that I think that was A little more be all right.

Mark:

That’s right. That was

Justin:

the episode.

Mark:

Yeah. Agreed.

Justin:

I’m proud that I can remember. That’s pretty good. Hang on.

Mark:

Just days are getting longer. Justin just swallowed a bug. No.

Justin:

I don’t know what that was.

Mark:

I think it was his uh breakfast snack.

Justin:

Yeah, I think so. I’m back.

Mark:

It’s okay. He’s good. He’s not turning blue.

Justin:

That’s right. He can breathe.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Um yeah, so today, um, I don’t know, uh you know, may some people may consider this a polarizing topic, some may not. But this idea of marriage counseling. And I’d like it to be kind of a little bit dual purpose in the sense of um Talking about marriage counseling, but also understand a little bit more about Mark and your background and how you got into counseling. And I know you you’re not sp specifically marriage counseling and I know you do I mean your I think tagline would be marriage and family counseling. Is that

Mark:

marriage and family therapist? Yes. I’m licensed marriage and family therapist. Thank you.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s no problem. Yeah. I do like that word therapist because it makes you sound very legit, which if you’ve been listening, you know he’s very legit.

Mark:

I was just I was I was just thinking you were looking for marriage advice uh this morning and we could do that off but now I’m understanding a little more. Yeah topic uh

Justin:

I I’m gonna try and mine some of that during the during so Do you know your uh license number?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Off hand? Ooh, let’s have it. Or is that

Mark:

sixteen ninety one.

Justin:

Sixteen ninety one.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

That’s like close to when Columbus sailed the ocean blue. No, that was 1492. Not close.

Mark:

Yeah. You’re you’re right on it there. You’re right on it there.

Justin:

Right on All right. So let’s get into it.

Mark:

Yeah. Um do you have some questions?

Justin:

I do.

Mark:

Oh wow.

Justin:

Yeah. Um

Mark:

you really have thought about this as a topic.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go for it. I’m good. My first question would be what sh caused you to shift your career because you were, you know, primarily construction, right? Yeah. I think a general contractor, is that correct?

Mark:

That’s correct.

Justin:

Um, which I’m sure kept you very busy. It wasn’t you weren’t in need or want of work. No, correct. Okay. Um so yeah, what caused you to make that shift?

Mark:

That’s a good that’s uh like say a God story in itself to a degree, but um I’ll give you the reader’s digest version. Um

Justin:

the how I see it version.

Mark:

Yeah, that’s true. Um Chris and I, of course, uh we we were working with couples through our church. Just kinda, you know, we we had what I would call a passion.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we ended up going to a summit conference um through our church. Our s the the our church sponsored it. We actually went to, you know, we were in upstate New York and went to a satellite location for what built it used to be Bill well Bill Hybels was was the uh was the leader of that summit

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

And there was a moment when he basically said, okay, you know, what is your holy discontent?

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And, you know, it was you know, he identified Moses. His anger came from the way, you know, the Hebrew children were being treated in Egypt. And, you know, that brought him to anger and he just asked us to reflect on that. And, you know, Chris and I both just kind of looked at each other and we said, you know, status status of marriage and therefore family in the United States was our was our was our topic. And, you know, it wasn’t that we had thought about it ahead of time, but it was just something we recognized. You know, life cycle stages, that kind of thing, you know, with John and Lizzie and just, you know, friends and their friends and you know and an um close a close friend actually yeah well it was someone that was on our podcast but um a close friend of Chris’s was you know going through a separation that kind of thing. And it just really kinda tore up our our thoughts a little bit. And so yeah, that’s that’s where that came from. And then that became the journey. And we, you know We talked about uh, you know, going into uh a pastoral role and so forth, but uh even other pastors had advised us, you know, it’s like, okay, now if you’re if you want to do this. you know, go the therapy route, go the counseling route, you know, really do the hard work and, you know, wrestle with your own stuff. And then, you know, you’re a little more better a little more equipped to help other people. So yeah, that’s that’s the that’s the short version. That’s it and it and it became, you know, education and working through that and changing jobs and part of moving and yeah, so it’s it’s been a it’s been a good journey. You you never it’s it’s funny, uh Chris and I you know It was it was uh it was difficult because you don’t realize how many hoops are involved in a process sometimes, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You realize, you know, it’s like, oh yeah, we can do that. And then it’s like, well, we gotta do that and we gotta do that and we gotta and it and then there’s oh, and then you gotta do this, you know. And so yeah, it was it was a it was a it was a good journey though Hmm.

Justin:

So it was a little bit of a blind step in faith and then realizing the

Mark:

Yeah, it was like, yeah, this is what we’re gonna do, but we didn’t realize what we were committing to at that point. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin:

Which do you think was good?

Mark:

I think so. But I think it I think it um it definitely kind of I I would I would dare say, you know, I was com Chris and I were both committed, but My lack of awareness definitely impacted, you know, Chris’s sense of security in that process of, you know, are you kidding me? There there’s something else.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

It’s like, yeah, there’s something else that you know, so it was, you know, it was another surprise.

Justin:

He needed some marriage counseling. Before you compete it.

Mark:

It was kind of hoop after hoop there for a long time. Yeah.

Justin:

Dang.

Mark:

Yeah, but it’s

Justin:

number.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah. Well congratulations to both of you.

Mark:

Thank you. Yeah, it was a it was a team effort, no doubt about it.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s awesome. So it’s so m the hope.

Mark:

has a better I think she just does it naturally. She has the questions. She tends to think in questions.

Justin:

Yeah, she’s a good questioner.

Mark:

She is.

Justin:

For sure.

Mark:

And I think, you know, even in even in counseling, that’s, you know, what do questions mean to us I think sometimes, you know, it’s like if somebody’s asking me questions, my I tend to get a little more anxious because I’m I’m thinking I messed up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, whereas other people see questions as, oh my goodness, you you just want to get to know me better. So I mean there’s there’s a little there’s there’s a little freebie for you, you know. It’s like, okay, what what do questions mean to me? So if somebody starts asking me questions, do I start feeling a insecurity or do I start feeling a closeness and I and I lean in or do I resist? So yeah. But yeah, Chris has always been great at asking the questions.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s awesome.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Sorry it

Mark:

means they’re off your trail.

Justin:

But it yeah, that’s cool. Yeah So write that one down, folks. Um yeah, no, it’s cool to understand a little bit of the background and and know that, you know focus on the marriage was kind of a key part of that and the family kind of a uh came as a result of that, right? Like the family focus. Um

Mark:

yeah, because I I for me personally, I think I mean marriage, healthy marriage is the foundation to civilization as far as I’m concerned.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s just

Mark:

it’s just that’s how I see it. Yeah. That it’s, you know, it’s not something because out of healthy marriages come healthy families. And, you know, as as if out of that polarization, you know. I’m not saying, you know, we don’t need community, but at the same time, it’s not about, you know, the government ha can raise my children. as effectively as as parents can. And I and I believe that’s a God given opportunity, role, responsibility, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That each of our children is unique to be able to be raised by us. And I’m not you know, and that’s nothing against childcare or anything like that, but you know, recognizing that as a parent I have a God given role and you know and I’m I’m just all about helping people Do that role, fulfill that role to the best of their abilities.

Justin:

Which starts with the relationship between the the parents. That’s kind of what you’re saying. Um yeah, that’s that’s that’s good. Um and then, you know, you’re you still do some construction and stuff, so uh as we’ve described I don’t know if we mentioned this term before on this podcast, but it’s a term you use often is the wrestling.

Mark:

Oh yeah.

Justin:

Right? It sounds like that started early and it’s continued until today of like that balance and you know of just wrestling with how much time to give right. Yeah. Can you speak a little to that?

Mark:

Sure. Um I haven’t done it well lately. I mean, like you say, there is a there is a um there is a tremendous need, you know, to um for for therapy.

Justin:

For remodels, yes.

Mark:

Well both. That’s that’s my issue. Yeah. And I and I’ll I’ll say, you know, my priority is the therapy. Mm-hmm. You know, and it used it used to be I I felt it was it was far more balanced but now I’m just finding that I don’t have as much time for the construction as I’d like and I I think it’s a little It’s different for me just because that was a little more of my therapy. You know, I have different things that I do for my own self-help help, you know, and and the construction part of that was that ability to use my hands and just my body. You know, exercising my mind and my body is kind of how I see it, you know, from that aspect of, you know, the therapy is a mental thing. But I enjoyed the the physical labor, always have enjoyed the physical labor. Um it’s probably what hasn’t made me a very um successful business person. But I just enjoy the hands-on part of it, you know.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If I yeah. But yeah, I can speak to that. It’s just it’s just uh the the need continues to grow and I and I respect the fact that um sometimes in my in who I am, it’s hard for me to say no. So you know, two two strong needs doesn’t make for a uh Really at times it just I have to I have to recognize I have to say no.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I’m not always good at that. Yeah. But yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and it it uh in your position and it’s similar because my my wife Megan she does she’s a hairstylist but it’s like once you say yes to someone it’s not a one time yes, right? It’s a perpetual yes and you know what I mean and so it’s a it’s a

Mark:

Yeah. It’s some people and uh I this is funny ’cause I was I was thinking about it yesterday, you know, I got a call from a a random person, you know. And they basically said, Hey, can you swing by and, you know, fix some shingles on my roof in Oak Island? And it’s like, uh, no. I was I was I was practicing and it was like You mean you don’t have ten minutes just to stop by and put a game you had to riot. Yeah, it was funny cause because it it was like once that person went there, it’s like it was so much easier to say no.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah. Matter of fact, I sure do not have 10 minutes to come up.

Mark:

I do not, you know, because it’s like that was all it would take in that person’s mindset. So it was just kind of funny, you know. It’s just yeah, yeah Sometimes it’s easier to say no to certain people who are actually saying, Hey, you know, can you do this? I really need some help and you know and this person ‘s down and out on their luck, you know, and they’ve hit this you know, that becomes tougher. But when a person’s, you know, kind of coming from that uh entitlement perspective that you know

Justin:

Yeah so if you w if you need work Mark to work on your shingles you gotta play the I really need help card, the desperate card.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And he will he will rescue you.

Mark:

But then I’ll tell you that it’s gonna take more than ten minutes. So you know, don’t go there ’cause that’ll yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s a very Yes. That happens in the software world as well. Oh I bet. Like, oh that should be simple. Oh no, you said it.

Mark:

This won’t take long. This shouldn’t be this should be easy for somebody like you. Exactly. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

How many times have I said that? I apologize if I have.

Justin:

You may have. I don’t know. Yeah. I may have done that with you with the construction system.

Mark:

It’s all good.

Justin:

All right, back to the the questions, Mark. Um so if you could summarize the best your favorite thing about that specific role of marriage and family counseling. It’s okay if it’s not the marriage aspect, but if it is then it really ties nicely into the the subject. But um yeah what would you say is the best part

Mark:

The best part for me is initially is that aspect of getting to know people. You know, because I believe once you know someone to the you know, and yeah. It’s it’s interesting because there’s a difference between knowing an individual personally, like how long you talk with an individual. And in my line of work, there’s also these patterns. You know, so I don’t necessarily have to always talk with you and get every detail from you. But one t starting to talk with you, I have the ability to kinda say, Okay, this fits into a pattern You follow me, this is this is a pattern and we start identifying and those patterns aren’t always extremely unique. Mm-hmm. You follow me? So once we get into that that role and that dynamic helping people recognize that there’s nothing wrong with them, that what they’re doing makes perfect sense based on what they’ve experienced and where they’ve come from. Then there’s a then then there’s a a heightened sense of freedom and a loss of shame. Shame is diminished when it’s like there’s I’m able to recognize There’s nothing well, I’m human.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And therefore what I’m doing makes perfect sense. They’re real and because our tendency is to say what’s wrong with me.

Justin:

Yes. Right. I’m broken.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Versus, yeah, this is the way it’s almost physics, right? For every action there’s an opposite and equal reaction and sometimes we lose sight of that and we think our reaction is uh outsized when you when you I think sounds like you’re saying you’re i able to identify those patterns and say, see that action was pretty significant, which is what why it makes sense that the reaction is

Mark:

exactly Yeah. That’s I think that’s the, you know, the one phrase, you know, when I’m when I’m able to talk with people, you know, okay, you know there’s really nothing wrong with you. You know, that’s just where over time I’ve been able to see that freedom. It’s like, are you serious? Because then once people recognize there’s Nothing wrong with them, you know. Yeah. That that

Justin:

so cool

Mark:

the ability to be vulnerable really increases. Mm-hmm. Because it’s like oh

Justin:

you’re not in shame cover mode.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Because you don’t need to be because there’s no shame necessary.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

This is what hurt people who in these situations do.

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Let’s talk about it.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Wow.

Mark:

Yeah. So that’s that’s probably my favorite part.

Justin:

It doesn’t bode well for saying no to new clients if that’s your favorite part. It’s getting the known.

Mark:

That’s true. But yes. Yes. I can’t it doesn’t mean that I’ll uh be new people I’ll be able to see you this week, you know. It’s like we uh make that transition, but

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, that’s probably my favorite part is just getting to know people. I it there’s always these different theories, you know, as far as, you know, and through the training, you know, in the box, outside the box, you know, and professionalism and And I just that’s just not I’m I’m definitely an in the box type person. Not that your problems are my problems.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But it’s like I don’t sit above. and look at you down in the box and I stay removed from the box. Yeah.

Justin:

With the glasses down on the edge of your nose and writing on the clipboard.

Mark:

Sometimes I do put my glasses on the edge of my nose. I have those glasses. But uh yeah And I do have a clipboard.

Justin:

Metaphorically. Metaphorically, I mean. He may still have a clipboard and glasses on the internet.

Mark:

Yes. But it’s only because that helps me, you know, get to remember that person. Yeah. as I write it down.

Justin:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Mark:

And yeah, it helps me connect.

Justin:

Yeah, I would say in my experience with you, not that I’ve experienced you as a you know actual in the counselor perspective, but definitely in the counselor perspective. You’ve counseled me many times but is that you do have a unique ability to get down in the box with us but not take on the the s the the struggle, the drama or The saga.

Mark:

The saga, yes.

Justin:

We’ll get to that in a minute. Um yeah. Yeah, you have a pretty distinct and unique ability to do that. Where I don’t know that I know anyone. else I’ve ever met that can do it that like that. And I think that’s pretty cool. Okay. Pretty cool. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um Well

Mark:

and I’ll leave I’ll even what I know, I’m just adding this part, what I know about therapy is is a is a addition. You like that fun. Uh, it’s an addition to what I did as a contractor. Because so often that’s that was the role I had even as a contractor, because I’d come in to this couple situation. They’re saying, you know, we have these resources and we want to do this. Can you help us? You know, because they didn’t have all that they needed to get to where they wanted and they had certain resources and it was my job to be able to talk with both of them in such a way that kind of excavated what they both wanted from that space with those resources, you know. And it just it just gave me an opportunity to get to know people and to start working in that context of Oh, I see your vision and I see your vision and how are we gonna combine these two in such a way that kind of gets you both what you want? And in a way that makes you uh you know a happy customer. And granted, sometimes as the therapist, I’m not so concerned about the happy customer because the relationship is my client when I’m working in marriage and family therapy. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Nice.

Mark:

But it did di it was I I used to have the tagline that go that said I was uh people would say, well that’s a big difference, you know, and I just I just say I just went from building uh yeah, building houses to building home.

Justin:

Oh, nice. That sounds like a mark tag

Mark:

blank. And it really, you know, it that home dynamic is where families and you know marriages thrive when that sense of home is, you know.

Justin:

So you’re building homes one way or another.

Mark:

Wow.

Justin:

Well done. You’re a home builder.

Mark:

That’s what you can tell people.

Justin:

What what do you do? Well, I’m a home builder.

Mark:

There you go. I do it through

Justin:

counseling, therapy, and Construction.

Mark:

Wellspring Life Services. That’s right.

Justin:

Life service. Yeah. That’s the name of Mark’s company.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Wellspring Life Services. Yep. Um, cool. All right. So moving on

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

If you’re good with that. I’m good. What is well let’s let’s put it this way. When or why should a couple seek counseling when they’re I’m gonna tee this up for you.

Mark:

Yeah, yeah, you can put it right on the tee for me.

Justin:

When their drama is at the height.

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Or I’ll let you out.

Mark:

I I um I tend to think that we wait far too long. to get the help we need so often. And I think, you know, I it’s I’m certainly willing to help people whenever But so often what I hear is, well, I’ll hear it after, you know, a positive session. It’s like, we should have done this years ago. You know, that’s that’s what our routine we’ve been married twenty-five years, we’ve been married fifteen years, we and and you know what? We should have done this years ago. We should have done this we should have done this in hindsight. when we had kids, when we moved, you know, because it was at that point that, you know, this creeping separation, this pattern, if you will, was developed And we’ve been operating in this, you know, I’ll call it a, you know, this core pattern or some some might call it a negative cycle, you know, for years. And it’s like There was we didn’t necessarily it wa and that’s the tough part, because you don’t know what you don’t know at that point. But yet I think quite often there is this uh dynamic that says, okay, we probably should talk with someone about this or, you know, w we can do something different, but we just kind of ignore. I think part of it is that shame dynamic. But then it just Once those negative cycles are in place, it’s tough at times to root those out, you know, because you know, each time a person, each time one of the couple um desires to become vulnerable even if they’re able to or you know, expressing a need and therefore they are vulnerable you know, the other person just cuts their knees right off from that negative cycle and it’s counter to that r vulnerability again.

Justin:

Yeah, because it starts to become a little bit more about you know when we kind of separate it. We start building our cases, right? And start almost keeping score and you know when s the other side is vulnerable there’s a chance there to g gain ground so to speak is what is perceived. When you know the reality’s the opposite, right? When someone’s vulnerable well now there is a chance to gain ground through love and respect and sure all those good things. But yeah, I think when when you’re in those negative patterns, it’s it’s about scorekeeping and Yeah, I think almost trying to l reduce my shame, you know, sure in in in the marriage and be like, see, it’s not my fault, it’s your fault. when there’s someone’s vulnerable be like, Ha, I knew it was you, you know, kind of thing. Yeah.

Mark:

And those things as a you know, those things are all counter to a relationship.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Anytime yes. Anytime you’re keeping score in a relationship and I It doesn’t matter what the relationship it can be, you know. I I remember uh for when we first got married, um, we would go to some friend’s house. And um before we were getting married, we we used to spend a lot of time at our friends of ours and they were pretty well off. We we would go there, we didn’t want for anything, you know, we didn’t sure have to ask if we should bring something. It wasn’t, you know, and this is before we were married, we would just go hang out there and Yeah. And then even when we we got married, we would continue to hang out with this this family, right? Sure. Uh well, not every di uh household is that way.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

And we kinda learn that the hard way by kind of assuming on other relationships. Like when we go to your house we can I it just didn’t even occur to me that you should bring stuff. It didn’t occur to me that you shouldn’t eat whatever you want and do whate you know, it’s like

Mark:

you can help yourself to the refrigerator.

Justin:

Yeah, exactly. I mean I don’t know that I quite went that far, but like if there was something put out, I didn’t feel any Whatever. Um, but yeah, so but long story short, ended up realizing that there was a little bit of like frustration on the other side of like these people kind of just You know, almost like scorekeeping, right? This is like so I’m like, okay. You know, uh next time I gotta top my that score and like bring something and not you know, not eat as much or whatever and it star that sorta that dynamic and I started realizing you know, like that’s a reality too for again th this other couple was f freshly married too, so it was like they their resources are limited and of course that didn’t occur to me, you know But um back to the whole point of like score keeping in a relationship, what whatever that relationship is causes uh separation.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Versus bringing together. Sure. That can happen with your contractor, right? Like you know, that can happen with your to t students, you know, your kids uh teacher, excuse me, they can happen with you know

Mark:

each time there’s an offense, yeah, perceived or otherwise, you know, it’s It’s a real thing and you know, to be able to recognize that and address it. Mm-hmm. You know.

Justin:

Yeah. And in some relationships that are real casual, I mean it’s just a matter of adjusting my saying go, all right, I gotta stop score and just be benevolent or whatever, but in r like real relationships, it’s work, right? So this is where, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t know. Um Yeah, I tried to tee you up, but you you missed it.

Mark:

Did did I miss it as far as drama and saga?

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Earlier you had this tremendous quote about drama versus a s your saga. And I want I want you to tie that into to marriage if you can.

Mark:

Sure. I do and I think, you know, for me there’s a difference. you know, when I think of drama, I think of, you know, tremendous highs, tremendous lows, you know, and and and that’s not to say that marriage isn’t doesn’t have those. But I think, you know, when we can recognize that marriage Marriage Done Well is more like a saga, it’s a continuing story. It’s a it’s a journey. And those highs and lows are part of it, but yet I can still see that there’s a lot of good between the highs and the lows that are just it’s okay. You know, it’s okay for us to be okay. You know, there it doesn’t have to be, you know, um romantic and exciting all the time. There’s something to be said for the ability to say, I w I’m I’m good to hold your hand and we’re in this for the long haul. Even if we’re disagreeing Even if we can’t see eye to eye right now, I’m still gonna reach out, not you personally, but I’m gonna reach out and, you know, hold your hand in such a way that says I’m still physically here.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I think that becomes that that’s part of the saga that continues that when we when we’re able to recognize this is part of a journey. And you know, and there’s gonna be these life cycle stages and you know, and I don’t think, you know, and I can say that in two words And yet I recognize, you know, having kids and raising kids and, you know, early, you know, toddlers and, you know, and adolescence and empty nest and, you know, losing parents, you know, that’s That’s all part of life cycles. It happens to everyone. And there’s gonna be a lot of, you know, identity change that goes along with that. There’s gonna be aspects of what my purpose is you know, where my security comes from, my ability to you know, are a couple’s ability to accept one another, you know, recognizing, you know, God is from my perspective, you know, God is that source. you know, for all of those things, but in the midst of change, so often I look to my spouse to define some of those things. And, you know, especially, you know, acceptance and, you know, that kind of thing or security, you know, is gonna be it’s gonna be, you know, big for, you know, majority of females, that kind of thing. So yeah, that’s uh That’s just a part of it. I just I just really see things from that that journey perspective.

Justin:

And I think th I love it. when going through the drama to understand that this is not the whole thing. This is a saga. This is a part of the saga. An end to a chapter or, you know, like Sure. You know, uh if you think about a long book, right? Yeah. The saga and there might be dramatic moments, but there’s setups for like the end or of a chapter to start a new chapter or whatever. And I think that’s a healthy way to think about it is this drama is not the end. You know, this drama doesn’t represent all of our marriage and and all that it’s, you know, meant to be and you know what I mean? It’s it’s uh it’s a moment in time And it’s part of a longer journey and yeah, I just really like how you put it.

Mark:

And I think I think the thing I like about, you know, when I think of life cycles and, you know, and you think of you think of good stories you know, there is there are there is this cycle of learning. You know, I learn, you know, I don’t whatever the story is, you know, I learn as a as a I’m gonna write the story here, but you know, I I’m thinking of something like um Even like Yellowstone.

Justin:

Okay.

Mark:

You know, you you they they reflect back. It’s a TV. You know, but you know, it’s this process of reflecting back and how I’ve learned things, you know, from my family system. you know, that affected me when I was a child and those are the you know, as I became an adolescent, you know, I had certain struggles. You know, the bullies got bigger, but you know, I had learned how to kind of deal with that. as a child, you know, and and or not, you know, to the degree that I deal with it, either in healthy ways, you know, in relational ways or non-relational ways. you know, that learning in it and it just gets and then I become the, you know, the hierarchy, you know, the the the leader of the family. And those things, those cycles that I’ve learned from are the what I teach to those that come behind me. Right.

Justin:

Or perpetuate.

Mark:

Yeah, it’s a legacy type dynamic and I see those continued cycles. And I think the The thing that I like most about the psycho perspective is to be able to recognize it’s a part of a life. And even though it’s uh it’s very personal when I’m in it If I can step out of it, I can recognize, okay, this is what’s happening. When I do this, you do that. So if I want to minimize what you doing that, I need to recognize what I do to contribute. And so like you say, that’s that’s part of that learning from my perspective. And and I believe learning is something that’s a ongoing thing, hopefully.

Justin:

Yeah, makes sense.

Mark:

It’s a it’s a healthy thing.

Justin:

Um so another question for you.

Mark:

Sure, fire away.

Justin:

Bring back kind of one of our core um buzzwords, polarization.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

What would be some of the polarizing aspects to marriage co counseling? I think just in it it itself can be polarizing in the sense that I I believe most couples won’t enter marriage counseling until they truly believe they need it. And I think um the polarizing idea would be that I think most couples could use marriage counseling and who who doesn’t need a l Who doesn’t need a little help once in a while with relational struggles, you know, or something like that?

Mark:

No, and I th and I think I think at times we make it a big thing to talk with someone, to go somewhere, to you know, sit down in someone’s office. and and make time.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think I think in our culture, um, what used to happen I’d say more um naturally. I was trying to more organically, that’s the word I was looking for. More organically was um our family systems were more connected. So, you know, if I didn’t if I couldn’t necessarily, you know If I was a young married and I couldn’t necessarily talk with my s my parents, I probably had a grandparent that I could go to, you know, that it’s kind of been observing things all along, maybe never really said anything, but yet when I got to the point of saying, Hey, my wife’s crazy, you know I had that other older adult who could probably say, uh, maybe it’s not your wife.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

What do you what what help me understand where you where you’re going, what you’re doing, you know, those kind of things. that basically was able to kind of speak into me in a way that no one else could.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I think, you know, not that I think as we have become more mobile, you know, that that um nuclear family system has has been separated and I have less influence. You know, I have less ability to be influenced by those former generations that I’m able to listen to to speak. that you know that I have that can speak into who I am. And I think that’s where relationship is so important. And I think, you know to have someone that I can go to that is impartial and you know can kind of speak to what’s going on. I think is very beneficial and I think, you know, that stigma, um, that you know, well, you know, only people who really have issues need a marriage, you know, need to go for the therapy. You know, there is something well We don’t want to admit something’s wrong with us.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, that kind of thing. So we no, we don’t need to well, in the same time It’s not that we need therapy. We just need a little help.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And so therefore, sometimes when we need a little help, that’s a good time to talk with someone who happen who might happen to be a therapist. versus just ignoring it or trying to brush it under the rug, that kind of thing. Yeah, I

Justin:

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I imagine your job would be much easier if people would come when they need a little help. Yeah. You know?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

But you’re you’re having to take ’em when they’re at their do something marker else. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. That’s that’s very true. You know, ’cause we’re at this po typically People are at the point of okay, we’re we’re separating. This is this is kind of our last hor last shot at this. Otherwise, yeah, we’re calling it good.

Justin:

So I would say You know, the polarizing statement would be you need marriage counseling. If you have a marriage, you could you you could use some marriage counseling. So

Mark:

and I and I think when I think that becomes a polarizing topic within couples.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because when a spouse comes to one spouse and says, Hey, we need to talk with someone, it’s like

Justin:

What am I doing wrong?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

How am I doing it wrong?

Mark:

If you just if you just cut this out, we wouldn’t have to.

Justin:

Yeah. Because of the defensiveness. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

If you just stop this.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, we’d be good. There’s no need. You just need to stop.

Justin:

Yeah. Well, okay, I’ll stop, but you have to stop this first.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Well I’m not gonna stop that till you stop. You stop first, you stop first, you know. That’s yeah, that’s where that defensiveness is is deeply ingrained at that point.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, and I think those cycles can start so early, but were very gracious and benevolent in the beginning. Right.

Mark:

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Justin:

Whatever, you know. And

Mark:

even to I think your scorekeeping plays into that because, you know, there was a time when we were friends.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

And we just accepted each other like my other friend J like my friend Justin. You you met my friend Justin? Now some people who know Justin might say, well, he’s a little crazy. You know, but I’m gonna say, no, you know, that’s just Justin. He’s my friend. I want I’m not gonna get caught up in the name calling or you know that defining you by your behavior because you’re my friend. Um there’s gonna be an acceptance there. And what happens in marriage is we get to this transition and we we move from being friends to being married

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And we start looking at we start looking at flaws and we we take on the desire to fix that. You just and it and now we start identifying each other by our flaws and we lose that friendship.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s good.

Mark:

And we, you know, and it comes back to being able at times to be able to say, okay, um I I just ex I’m I’m recognizing that’s who you are and realistically, you know, that’s who I married.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And you know, and I’m not saying, you know, we accept unhealthy behavior. Don’t get me wrong there. But yet there’s a point where Part of that is is what we were attracted to at the very beginning. And now some of those characteristics have become unattractive. Now I want to change.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s kinda like the stick we talked about.

Mark:

Sure. Yeah, very much so.

Justin:

Yeah. Um yeah, and I think yeah, I think one of the most common a time times in your marriage where you could really benefit from marriage counseling is the first couple of years when those patterns are starting to become ingrained or like set in where that transition starts to occur from friend to foe.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Or whatever. You know, the kind of and you know, we’re talking about polarizing opposites. I mean you know, in marriage we’re almost culturally encouraged to become polar opposites. Like, well, a woman’s always needs this, a man always needs that, when there’s you know, it’s a there’s a lot of tropes, right, about what marriage looks like.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Um when the reality is we need those things to break down and for that friendship to be maintained throughout the course of a marriage and for s a a lot of those stereotypical notions to be minimized.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Both in our actions so that we don’t fall into those traps, but also in our reactions to our spouse to recognize that just because they do this thing that many wives do doesn’t make them this villain that is portrayed everywhere when wives do this thing. Sure. Right? Like there’s a method to the madness or whatever. No, I hear you. You know what I’m saying?

Mark:

Yeah, I do. And I I think the the first part where you were saying, you know, early on, that’s so often I think, you know, as we do, you know, as I’ll do like even premarried. You know, yeah. I think um my my goal is to be able to catch up with that couple like a year from now after they get married. My goal would be to catch because it is at that point. Where you’re starting to it’s like there’s a lot of reality.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

No offense. That sets in, you know.

Justin:

Nun none taken.

Mark:

Yeah, before uh before we’re getting married until and then a year after we’re married. There’s a lot of reality that sets in.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And it’s like, okay, now I’m seeing you in a little harsher light, you know, where there was this soft Yeah, you know, glow.

Justin:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Mark:

Now there’s a spotlight glaring on some, you know, issues. So yeah.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah, and and there’s a perception before you’re married when you’re standing at the altar that there’s gonna be that magical glow that covers even the flaws and and and and it will continue and Um, mat that magical glow that’s natural and free flowing prior to marriage pr takes work.

Mark:

Sure. Right.

Justin:

And You know, I I don’t even know if that’s the right term for what a good marriage looks like afterwards. I mean, a good marriage afterwards looks like work. It looks like you know, putting in the time, the effort, the the The intentionality.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s good. Um, yeah, so if you’re just married, go get some marriage counseling.

Mark:

Yeah. No, seriously. I mean just to be able to talk with someone.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

You know, and I’m a I’m a big I’m a big fan of marriage mentoring. Yeah, I was gonna say finding people, you know, who you know have been just married longer than you have And who you look up to, who, you know, who are in the process of, you know, raising kids and, you know, y their kids seem to be, you know, f fairly well behaved. They’re still kids, of course, and, you know, they’re not robots, but yet at the same time you know, they tend to listen or, you know, that kind of thing. Find somebody like that.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And be able to, you know, say, Hey, can we can we get together? Even if we invite them to our house and we supply them with the of the meal, you know, it’s like This is an opportunity where we can say, okay, you know, what did you do here? How did you handle this? You know, what are your thoughts on this? We have we have this reoccurring thing, you know? And I think so often what that does is it normalizes you know the issues that we have. Because so often our tendency is to think, oh my goodness, we’re messed up. This We’re the only other we’re the only couple that ever has had to deal with this. You know, and when we’re able to recognize, oh, okay, no, that’s that’s a part of where we’re at.

Justin:

What I really like about this concept is it’s essentially preventative maintenance, right? Like sure. You don’t necessarily have to get to the point where you’re in desperate need of a marriage therapist and you know you’re on the ropes, you can do some preventative maintenance in terms of just finding a mentoring couple to get together with and start to identify some of those patterns early and like you said, normalize some of those things, lose some of the shame.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like that can happen early and you don’t have to call it marriage counseling if if that’s a polarizing terminology for you. Like sure. You know what I mean? I think that’s cool. That’s very cool, the idea of finding finding a mentoring couple

Mark:

And I think in all honesty, that’s what drew us initially to becoming you know, is just, you know

Justin:

that opportunity.

Mark:

Yeah, it was how how often, you know, we were looking at, you know, people in our own home, you know, that would just kind of want to talk and, you know, and we’d be doing that, you know, and I and I think th m I sh I should probably change that just a little bit. And probably my favorite part is actually doing this with Chris. You know, when we’re able to, you know, sit down with a couple, you know, that’s that it that is one you know one of my favorites, you know, granted, hearing that part where people accept that you know, ability to recognize there’s nothing wrong with them. But yeah, I do and like you say when we do the classes and so forth, yeah, that’s my favorite part. Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, ’cause you and Chris regularly lead uh Marriage on the Rock class in How We Love classes at our church, which is cool, or you get to do that together.

Mark:

Yep.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s Austin. Uh, any other aspects to marriage counseling that you would consider polarizing?

Mark:

Hmm. Huh. I was is uh it’s funny ’cause I was just thinking about, you know, being male and female Tends to be polarizing as it is.

Justin:

As literal as possible.

Mark:

And then as our culture has uh adopted um the title marriage for same-sex couples. You know, that’s done uh that’s another polarizing aspect of, you know, of marriage counseling is what, you know, what was once, you know primarily, well, you know, defined as a male and female, I think that has become, you know, more po more polarizing as, you know, government has, you know, adopted the the title of marriage, you know, even for same-sex couples, that kind of thing. And that’s not to say that, you know, some of what I do isn’t effective for same sex couples as well and yet there is also um there is also that difference um between, you know, heterosexual couples and same-sex couples when it comes to, you know, talking with them in relationship, that kind of thing. So yeah, that can be a that’s just another polarizing one that comes from, you know I think, you know, we’re we’re designed so differently between male and female, you know, that that that’s part of that polarizing thing. And just just the way to kind of stay with that just the way that you know women tend to l view life and men tend to view life is just so different. It’s it’s it’s polarizing from that dynamic in and of itself.

Justin:

Yeah, it’s interesting. We we recently had a impact we just d uh uh switched to a new one, but we had a you know marriage um series at church and you know one of the last ones we talked about some of the needs of women and needs of men and I recognize as we kind of went through the points for what women need and what men need, how even those things can become polarizing to the degree where there’s gonna be certain women who say, You’re saying I need security. Um no. And understanding that I I do think I mean you you would know better than I do, you haven’t been around more couples and stuff. I do think there are some pretty significant patterns between men’s needs and women’s needs. Tons and tons of curriculum based around his needs and her needs and kind of how to w w balance them. Um But and yet and yet I think that may be a polarizing as it becoming more and more of a polarizing aspect as culturally we try to shift from the significance of of of uh genders, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

In to the degree where we say Well, women can do, you know, whatever a man can do and and men can do whatever a woman can do. And they when you say caregiver shouldn’t be assumed it’s the mother, it can be the father, and of course I agree with that. Um, even to the degree where you can’t say women or men either because it could be transgender and you know, like kinda um so like it’s homogenized. Yes, thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Right word for that. So I think even to say, well, it’s a woman thing is it can be very polarizing, right? Sure. To be able to say, well, women typically need security. can again for some women, especially depending on how how they grew up, potentially they learned how to fight for themselves and they don’t need a man and that that can be polarizing, right? How how d how do you speak to that

Mark:

Well, I think there’s a reason why there’s so many books, you know, and topics on, you know, uh, you know, uh I’m thinking of Egrich ‘s stuff, um, love and respect. You know, he wrote the book, you know, women, you know, um women desire love, you know, men desire respect. And I think I think when we look from my perspective, from a biblical basis You know, there’s just a difference. I go I clear clear back to Adam and Eve. There is just a difference between the way Adam was created, you know, the to the to the point that um Eve was created in the garden Okay. Adam was created outside the garden.

Justin:

In the m

Mark:

the wilderness. The wilderness, if you will.

Justin:

In the dust.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And out of the dust.

Mark:

And out of the dust. You know, that kind of thing. And it you know, from from that perspective There’s just a difference. You know, and that’s that’s not to say women have to be in the home all the time. It’s not to say that men can’t care for kids and you know, and I but yeah, even even for the most part. You know, women are just gonna look, you know, you look at kids, the majority of women are just gonna look at kids from a more nurturing standpoint.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, I mean that’s just the way it is. Yeah. I’m that’s not to say that men can’t be good nurturers and it’s not to say that w you know, wim some certain women might Say that’s not who I am, that’s not who I want to be, you know, I would rather do this. But you know, as a whole, you know, when you just talk with people in general. You know, they’re gonna recognize, okay, yeah. And yet that doesn’t mean that the the male dynamic um is wrong. You know, in that that there is a there is an aspect of, okay, you’re fine, get up, you know, that kind of thing. I’m not saying that in a general sense, but as in as a polarized dynamic of the nurturer.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know? And it’s and it’s like I th I think that’s beneficial. And so often I think our tendency is to homogenize it in such a way This says I can do what you can do just as well as you can. And therefore, I uh from my perspective, we both lose a sense of purpose.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

When we’re when we’re looking to do it that way.

Justin:

Yeah, and I f I find too, like even in our marriage, when I when I feel bad, right, about the work that Megan’s doing in the areas that she’s doing it and I’m like, man, I gotta step up my game and I try and be better at nurturing, for instance. It just Not natural and I you know, I not I’m not saying I shouldn’t nurture him. Again, this is I don’t think either of us are saying one has to do the uh the thing and the other shouldn’t. That’s not the point. But the point is it comes naturally for her. It just flows out of her. And for me it requires work, work, work. You know, like come on, be nurturing, come on. Yeah. Be kind about their their owie, you know, like it’s it’s okay, you know. Like Um and so whenever I start to feel kind of bad about what she does naturally and trying to fulfill that role, I tend to really struggle. Whereas when we’re able to both identify what it is we’re are we we’re good at, we’re naturally it’s become natural for us. Yeah and when we I when we operate in those natural um places we do so well. Especially when we’re in communication about that. We’re you know, we kind of in agreement about, yeah, you you take care of that part, I’m gonna take care of this part. Yeah. We do really well. It’s when we feel like we have to stretch over to the other side and and do the other thing. is when we start struggling and even to the point, back to your point about even the purpose starts to feel a little bit lost, like what was my purpose here, you know? And like when I try like for just using the nurturing thing in it and I fail at it again and again and again, you know, uh at being as good at it as she is and going, Man, I didn’t I think the kids could have used more a better nurturing

Mark:

sure

Justin:

response and I kind of failed at that, right? Like as as I continue to fail in those ways, it’s like, man. This this stuff’s hard, you know, and you start to yeah, kind of lose sense of that purpose where yeah. So I definitely yeah.

Mark:

And I think it’s uh as you were sharing, it’s like um I can remember early on when we first had kids. Um Chris actually did creative memories, you know, the the scrapbooking type stuff. And that was a tremendous turning point in our relationship. Um That was a tremendous turning point in our relationship just because Um she learned to depend on me to take care of the kids. Because for so long she had been in the home and and granted she was a fabulous, fabulous mother. you know, structures, routines, things, you know, meals at the same time, you know, that kind of thing. You know, there was a lot of security for our kids because, you know, they knew exactly what was gonna happen. Yeah. You know. And I was I was outside the home, you know, doing our thing and it worked great. And then she just, you know, had this desire to have this purpose. And it’s like, okay. And so I can come home at a certain time, be home, and but yet the way I parent our kids, you know, mealtime you know, what we did for activities, it was completely different.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And, you know, I mean I can remember our kids, well kids will uh uh tell the story or laugh about it, you know I’m mu for me a booster seat was a cordless drill box, you know, in the back of the truck. I could sit ’em on that booster seat, you know, I’d s I’d s you know, stack up a cordless drill box, you know, and it’s like it boosted ’em up and then I’d put the seat belt around ’em you know, and it And we were good to go. And I don’t say that, you know, in a in a light sense, but it was just the way that we did it back then and You know, it was different, but it wasn’t wrong.

Justin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

And so often I think that’s the that’s the issue. You know, you’re different is wrong.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because and it it was definitely a growing part of our relationship when Chris was able to say, okay Just because he does it completely different doesn’t make it wrong. Right. And when I come home, you know, ultimately the kids are fed, you know, changed. They’re in their beds sleeping. And It’s a good day.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it may not look the yeah, it got done. Yeah. And everybody’s safe.

Justin:

Yep. Yep.

Mark:

And I think, you know, so often we get too critical about it.

Justin:

Yes.

Mark:

And so yeah, that was just what was coming to mind.

Justin:

And it goes both ways too. Um just thinking of ways in which I I see Megan doing things, go that’s not how I would do it. You know, it really it goes both ways. And but really I mean that’s that’s exactly what this podcast is about is about talking about those two ends and saying which one’s wrong? Well wait a minute Maybe neither one, maybe there’s a m there’s a middle ground and it’s worth discussing. Like again how Mark would, you know, run the household when when Chris is at work versus Chris running the household when Mark is at work. Yeah. They may be polarly opposite the way it’s handled.

Mark:

They’re gonna look different.

Justin:

And yet, like you said, the health of the kids at the end of the day is what matters in our you know Yeah, and and learning like, oh, on that side isn’t necessarily all bad and on this side isn’t necessarily all good is really what were Trying to accomplish here is like let let go a little bit of your preconceived notions of how great your side is.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

A little bit, you know. Yep. And uh embrace potentially some opportunities and and benefits of the other side of the the spectrum that maybe you’re missing because you’re so polarized on this side, you know?

Mark:

No, I agree. And I think part of it is, you know uh I appreciated about Chris. Chris understood our kids got a completely different experience.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it’s like, yeah, the the there might have been a little more mess on the floor, there might have been a few more clothes on the floor. There might have been more dishes in the sink. But yet, you know, the kids would talk about, you know, being able to go outside and see deer and see it, you know, and I just gave them a completely different experience.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And, you know, I think they benefited from that, you know that dynamic and that was when Chris was able to say, okay, yeah, this is this is this is still good. This is okay. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

That’s good.

Mark:

But yeah.

Justin:

That was good. Thank you for sharing a little bit about your journey, Mark, and a little bit about marriage counseling. Well

Mark:

happy to do it.

Justin:

Yeah, hopefully we dispelled some of the polarization.

Mark:

Hey, there you go. That’s what we do. That’s what we desire to do. Attempt to do. Attempt to do. Very much. How this is how I see it

Justin:

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