0:05
morning Justin good morning Mr Mark all right how are you I like that softball

0:13
on a on a tea I'm Dandy Mark I'm Dandy I'm glad to

0:19
hear it Justin it's good to see you you're looking Dandy this morning thank you thank you I feel Dandy so good it's

0:26
a good Dandy morning yes it is a little crispy too it is not as crispy as yesterday morning but yeah yeah yeah

0:34
sun's coming up yeah it's get it's it's uh it's tough getting the evenings are

0:39
nice but it's it's fun getting used to those longer days yeah yeah wait the

0:45
evenings are nice because you have more sun you mean yeah yeah the days are getting longer and you notice it well

0:51
time change of course occurred but yeah at this time of day it's not like I

0:56
necessarily need a lot of light and yet you can see the sun starting to come up M and so at the end of the day you get a

1:03
lot more light it's kind of kind of neat yep it's uh yeah I very much favor

1:09
having more sun in the evening I bet you do yes yeah yeah y as the days

1:15
get is are we in Daily daylight savings time now a old question I think so like yeah

1:23
yeah you see that's weird to me because I would think the winter you would want to save daylight h

1:30
no you just want to hibernate in winter time [Music]

1:40
yeah welcome to how I see it with me Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is

1:47
a podcast that works to countercultural polarization through

1:52
thoughtful [Music]

1:58
conversations all right of my Cofe sorry about that conern so today's topic very

2:06
polarizing to you by what what is it brought to you by how I see it brought to you by how I see it yes the

2:16
sponsor I like it I mean if you want to send us money uh we may or may not

2:22
mention your name oh so you know well if you're a big enough business to where

2:27
you desire yeah we could we could offer endorsements oh yeah wa we need to go

2:34
back to that episode where we talked about this would that be a change on my part it might be I can't recall yeah uh

2:41
was that I think that was a little more be all right that's right episode yeah

2:47
agreed I'm proud that I that's pretty good hang on just days are getting longer Justin

2:54
just swallowed a bug no I don't know what that was I think it was his uh breakfast snack yeah I think so I'm back

3:00
it's okay he's good he's not turning blue that's right he can breathe yep um

3:05
yeah so today um I don't know you know some people may consider this a

3:11
polarizing topic some may not but this idea of marriage counseling oh and I'd

3:17
like it to be kind of a little bit dual purpose in the sense of um talking about

3:23
marriage counseling but also understanding a little bit more about Mark and your background and how you got

3:28
into counseling and I know you're not specifically marriage counseling and I

3:33
know you do I mean your I think tagline would be marriage and family counseling is that marriage and family therapist

3:39
yes I'm liced marriage and family therapist yes no problem yeah I do like that word therapist because it makes you

3:45
sound very legit which if you've been listening you know he's very legit so I

3:52
just I I was just thinking you were looking for marriage advice this morning we could do that off but now I'm

3:59
understanding a little more yeah topic I'm I'm going to try and mine some of that during the during so yeah yeah um

4:07
do you know your uh license number yeah off hand oh let's have it or is that 1691 1691 yeah that's like close to when

4:16
Columbus sailed the ocean blue no that was 1492 not

4:23
close yeah you're you're right on it there you're right on it there right on all right so let's get into it yeah do

4:30
you have some questions I do oh wow yeah um you really have thought about this as

4:35
a topic Yeah well yeah yeah my first question would be what

4:43
caused you to shift your career because you were you know primarily construction right and I think a general contractor

4:50
is that correct that's correct um which I'm sure kept you very busy it wasn't you weren't in need or want of work

4:57
correct okay um so yeah what caused you to make that shift that's a that's a

5:02
like say a god story in itself to a degree but um I'll give you the reader digest version all right um the how I

5:09
see it version the yeah yeah that's true um Chris and I of course uh we we were

5:16
working with couples through our church just kind of you know we we had what I

5:22
would call a passion yeah and we ended up going to a summit conference um

5:29
through our church our the the our church sponsored it we actually went to you know we were in Upstate New York and

5:35
went to a satellite location for what bill it used to be Bill well bill hibl

5:41
was was the uh was the leader of that Summit okay and there was a moment when

5:48
he basically said okay you know what is your holy discontent yeah and you know it was you

5:56
know he identified Moses his anger came from the way you know the Hebrew

6:01
children were being treated in Egypt and you know that brought him to anger and he just asked us to reflect on that and

6:09
you know Chris and I both just kind of looked at each other and we said you know status status of marriage and

6:15
therefore family in the United States was our was our was our topic and you

6:20
know it wasn't that we had thought about ahead of time it was just something we recognized you know life cycle stages

6:27
that kind of thing you know with John and Lizzy and just you know friends and their friends and you know and and um

6:35
close a close friend actually yeah well it was someone that was on our podcast but um a close friend of Chris's was you

6:42
know going through a separation that kind of thing and it just really kind of tore up our our thoughts a little bit

6:50
and so yeah that's that's where that came from and then that became the journey and we you know we talked about

6:56
uh you know going into a a pastoral role and so forth but uh even other pastors

7:02
had advised us you know it's like okay now if you if you want to do this you know go the therapy route go the

7:09
counseling route you know really do the hard work and you know rustle with your own stuff and then you know you're a

7:16
little more better a little more equipped to help other people so yeah that's that's the that's the short

7:22
version and and it became you know education and working through that and changing jobs and part of moving and

7:30
yeah so it's it's been a it's been a good journey you never it's it's funny uh Chris and I you know it was it was a

7:37
it was difficult because you don't realize how many Hoops are involved in a

7:44
process sometimes you know yeah you realize you know it's like oh yeah we can do that and then it's like well we

7:50
got to do that and we got to do that and we got to and and then there's oh and then you got to do this you know and so

7:55
yeah it was it was it was it was a good journey though so blind step in faith and then realizing

8:03
the yeah it was like yeah this is what we're going to do but we didn't realize what we were committed to at that point

8:10
yeah yeah which do you think was good in yeah I think so but I think it I think

8:16
it um it definitely kind of I I would I would dare say you know I was com Chris

8:22
and I were both committed but my lack of

8:27
awareness definitely impacted you know Chris's sense of security in that

8:33
process of you know are you kidding me there there's something else yeah it's

8:38
like yeah there's something else that you know so it was you know yeah it was another surprise she needed some

8:44
marriage counseling before you could beat it it was kind of hoop after hoop there for a

8:49
long time yeah dang yeah but you did it 1691 yeah L's number yep yeah well

8:58
congratulations to both you thank you yeah it was a it was a team effort no doubt about it yeah it's awesome so it's

9:04
so I'd be I'd actually be the first to say uh Chris

9:09
actually has a better I think she just does it naturally she has the questions

9:14
she tends to think in questions yeah she's a good questioner she is for sure and I think you know even in even in

9:20
counseling that's you know what do questions mean to us I think sometimes you know it's like if somebody's asking

9:26
me questions my I tend to get a little more anxious because I'm I'm thinking I messed up

9:32
yeah you know whereas other people see questions as oh my goodness you you just want to get to know me better so I mean

9:40
there's there's a little there there's a little freebie for you you know it's like okay what what do questions mean to

9:46
me so if somebody starts asking me questions do I start feeling an insecurity or do I start feeling a

9:52
closeness and and I lean in or do I resist so yeah but yeah Chris has always

9:58
been great at asking the questions yeah that's awesome yeah yeah sorry I didn't

10:03
mean to throw off your no it's a good little Rabbit Trail that I'm going to try and avoid but yeah that's cool yeah

10:09
so write that one down folks um yeah know it's cool to

10:16
understand a little bit of the background and and know that you know focus on the marriage was kind of a key

10:23
part of that and the family kind of uh came as a result of that right like the

10:28
family Focus um yeah because I I for me

10:34
personally I think I mean marriage healthy marriage is the foundation to

10:39
civilization as far as I'm concerned yeah that's just it's just that's how I

10:44
see it that it's you know it's not something because out of healthy marriages come healthy families and you

10:51
know as out of that polarization you know I'm not saying you know we don't

10:57
need Community but at the same time it's not about you know the government H can

11:03
raise my children as effectively as as parents can and I and I believe that's a

11:09
god-given opportunity role responsibility you know yeah that each of our children is unique

11:16
to be able to be raised by us and I'm not you know and that's nothing against child care or anything

11:22
like that but you know recognizing that as a parent I have a god-given role M

11:28
and you know and I'm I'm just all about helping people do that role fulfill that role to

11:36
the best of their abilities which starts with the relationship between the the parents is kind of what you're saying

11:42
yeah um yeah that's that's that's good um and then you know you're you still do

11:49
some construction and stuff so as we've described I don't know if we mentioned this term before on this podcast but

11:55
it's a term you use often is the wrestling oh yeah right right and it sounds like that started early and it's

12:02
continued until today of like that balance and you know just wrestling with

12:07
how much time to give right yeah you speak a little to that sure um I haven't

12:12
done it well lately I mean like you say there is a there is a um there is a

12:18
tremendous need you know to um for for therapy remodels yes well both that's

12:25
that's my issue and I and I'll I'll say you know my priority is the therapy MH you know

12:33
and it used it used to be I I felt it was it was far more balanced but now I'm

12:39
just finding that I don't have as much time for the construction as I'd like and I think it's a little it's different

12:45
for me just because that was a little more of my therapy you know I have

12:51
different things that I do for my own self-help help you know and and the construction part of that was that

12:58
ability to use my hands and just my body you know exercising my mind and my body

13:03
is kind of how I see it you know from that aspect of you know the therapy is a mental thing but I enjoyed the the

13:10
physical labor always have enjoyed the physical labor um it's probably what hasn't made me a very um successful

13:18
business person but I just enjoy the Hands-On part of it you know yeah if I

13:24
yeah but yeah I can speak to that it's just it's just uh the the need

13:30
continues to grow and I and I respect the fact that um sometimes in my in who

13:35
I am it's hard for me to say no so you know to two strong needs doesn't make

13:41
for a uh really at times it just I have to I have to recognize I have to say no

13:48
yeah and I'm not always good at that but yeah yeah it's it in your position and

13:55
it's similar because my my wife Megan she does she's a hair stylist but it's like once you say yes to someone it's

14:00
not a one time yes right it's a Perpetual yes and you know what I mean it's it's a yeah it's some people and

14:08
this funny because I was I was thinking about it yesterday you know I got a call from a a random person you know and they

14:15
basically said hey can you swing by and you know fix some shingles on my roof in Oak Island and it's like uh no I was I

14:23
was I was practicing and it was like you mean you don't have 10 minutes just to stop by and put a

14:30
you had the ride yeah it was funny because it was like once that person went there it's like it was so much

14:36
easier to say no yeah matter matter of fact I sure do not

14:43
have 10 minutes to come out I do not you know cuz it's like that was all it would take in that person's mindset so it was

14:49
just kind of funny you know it's just yeah yeah sometimes it's easier to say no to certain people who are actually

14:55
saying hey you know can you do this I really need some help and you know and this person's down and out on their luck

15:02
you know and they've hit this you know that becomes tougher but when a person's you know kind of coming from that uh

15:07
entitlement perspective that you know yeah so if you if you need work Mark to work on your shingles you got to play

15:13
the I really need help card the desperate card yes and he will he will

15:18
rescue you but then I'll tell you that it's going to take more than 10 minutes so you know don't go there cuz that'll

15:25
yeah yeah that's very yes that happens in the software world as well oh I bet like oh that should be simple oh no you

15:32
said it this won't take long this shouldn't

15:37
it should be easy for somebody like you exactly yeah yeah how many times have I

15:43
said that I apologize if I have uh you may have I don't know yeah I may have

15:48
done that with you with the construction it's all good all right back to the the questions mark um

15:55
so if you could summarize ooh the best your favorite thing about that specific

16:03
role of marriage and family counseling it's okay if it's not the marriage aspect but sure if it is then it really

16:08
ties nicely into the the subject but um yeah what would you say is the best

16:14
part the best part for me is initially is that aspect of getting

16:21
to know people you know because I believe once you know someone to the you

16:29
know and yeah it's it's interesting because there's a difference between

16:35
knowing an individual personally like how long you talk with an individual and

16:40
in my line of work there's also these patterns you know so I don't necessarily

16:46
have to always talk with you and get every detail from you but one starting

16:53
to talk with you I have the ability to kind of say okay this fits into a pattern

16:59
you follow me this is this is a pattern and we start identifying and those patterns aren't always extremely unique

17:07
MH you follow me so once we get into that that role and that

17:13
Dynamic helping people recognize that there's nothing wrong with them that

17:19
what they're doing makes perfect sense based on what they've experienced and where they've come from then there's a

17:25
then there's a a heightened sense of freedom and a loss of Shame mhm shame is

17:31
diminished when it's like there's I'm able to recognize there's nothing well

17:37
I'm human yeah and therefore what I'm doing makes perfect sense they're really

17:42
and because our tendency is to say what's wrong with me yes right I'm broken yes versus yeah this is the way

17:50
it's almost physics right for every action there's an opposite equal reaction and sometimes we lose sight of

17:56
that and we think our reaction is uh outsized yes when you when you I

18:02
think sounds like you're saying you're able to identify those patterns and say see that action was pretty significant

18:08
which is what why it makes sense that the reaction is exactly yeah so cool

18:14
that's I think that's the you know the one phrase you know when I'm when I'm able to talk with people you know okay

18:20
there's really nothing wrong with you you know that's just where over time I've been able to see that freedom it's

18:26
like are you serious because then once people recognize there's nothing wrong

18:31
with them you know that that the ability to be vulnerable really increases mhm

18:39
because it's like oh you're not in shame cover mode yes because you don't need to be because there's no shame necessary

18:46
yes this is what hurt people in these situations do exactly let's talk about

18:51
it yeah wow yeah so that's that's probably my favorite par mhm and you know doesn't bode well for saying no to

18:58
new clients if that's your favorite part is getting to known that's true but yes yes very I

19:07
can't it doesn't mean that I'll be new people I'll be able to see you this week you know it's like we uh make that

19:13
transition but so yeah that's probably my favorite part is just getting to know people I there's always these different

19:19
theories you know as far as you know through the training you know in the box outside the box you know and

19:25
professionalism and and I just that's just not I'm I'm definitely an in thebox

19:31
type person not that your problems are my problems but it's like I don't sit above and look at you down in the box

19:39
and I stay removed from the box you know with your glasses down on the edge of your nose and writing on a clipboard

19:46
sometimes I do put my glasses on the edge of my nose I have those glasses but uh yeah and I do have a clipboard

19:52
metally metaphorically I mean he may still have a clipboard and glasses on inter yes but it's only because that

19:59
helps me you know get to remember that person yeah as I write it down yeah that makes sense and yeah helps me connect

20:06
yeah I would say in my experience with you not that I've experienced you as you know actual in the counselor perspective

20:13
but definitely in the counselor you've counseled me many times but is that you do have a unique ability to get down in

20:19
the box with us but not take on the the the the struggle the drama or The Saga

20:27
The Saga yes we'll get to that in a minute U yeah yeah you have a pretty distinct and unique ability to do that

20:34
where I don't know that I know anyone else I've ever met that can do that like

20:41
that and I think that's pretty cool pretty cool yeah yeah um well and I'll

20:46
even I'll even what I know I'm just adding this part what I know about

20:51
therapy is is a is a addition you like that fun uh it's an addition to what I

20:59
did as a contractor because so often that's that

21:04
was the role I had even as a contractor because I'd come in to this couple

21:10
situation they're saying you know we have these resources and we want to do

21:16
this can you help us you know because they didn't have all that they needed to

21:21
get to where they wanted and they had certain resources and it was my job to be able to talk with both of them in

21:28
such a way that kind of excavated what they both wanted from that space with

21:34
those resources you know and it just it just gave me an opportunity to get to

21:39
know people and to start working in that context of oh I see your vision and I

21:45
see your vision and how are we going to combine these two in such a way that kind of get you both what you want and

21:52
in a way that makes you a you know a happy customer mhm and granted sometimes

21:58
as the therapist I'm not so concerned about the happy Customer because the relationship is my client when I'm

22:05
working in marriage and family therapy so yeah yeah nice but it did did it was

22:12
I I used to have a tagline that go that said I was uh people would say well that's a big difference you know and I

22:18
just I just say I just went from building uh yeah building houses to Building Homes oh nice you that sounds

22:25
like a mark tagline great and it really you know that home Dynamic is where families and

22:32
you know marriages Thrive when that sense of home is you know so you're Building Homes one way or

22:39
another well well done you're a home builder that's what you can tell people what do you do well I'm a home builder

22:46
there you go I do it through counseling therapy and construction Well Spring

22:52
Life Services that's right that's that's it you know life service yeah that's the

22:58
name of my company yeah well spring Life Services yep um cool all right so moving

23:03
on if you're good with that I'm good I'm good what is well let's let's put it

23:10
this way when or why should a couple seek counseling when

23:16
they I'm going to tee this up for yeah yeah you can put it right on that for me when their drama is at the height oh or

23:26
[Laughter] I'll let you out I I um I tend to think

23:34
that we wait far too long to get the help we need so often and I think you

23:42
know I it's I'm certainly willing to help people whenever but so often what I

23:49
hear is well I'll hear it after you know a positive session it's like we should

23:56
have done this years ago you know yeah that's that's what our routine we've been married 25 years we've been married

24:02
15 years and and you know what we should have done this years ago we should have done this we should have done this in

24:09
hindsight when we had kids when we moved

24:14
mhm you know because it was at that point that you know this creeping

24:20
separation this pattern if you will was developed and we've been operating in

24:26
this you know I'll call it a you know this core pattern or some some might call it a negative cycle you know for

24:33
years mhm and it's like there was we didn't necessarily it what and that's

24:40
the tough part because you don't know what you don't know at that point but yet I think quite often there is this uh

24:49
Dynamic that says okay we probably should talk with someone about this or you know we can do something different

24:56
but we just kind of ignore I think part of it is that shame Dynamic but then it

25:01
just once those negative Cycles are in place it's tough at times to root those

25:07
out you know because you know each time a person each time one of the couple um

25:15
desires to become vulnerable even if they're able to or you know expressing a

25:21
need and therefore they are vulnerable you know the other person just cuts their knees right off from that NE cycle

25:29
and it's counter to that vulnerability again yeah because it starts to become a

25:34
little bit more about you know when we kind of separate it we start building our cases right and start almost keeping

25:43
score and you know when the other side vulnerable there's a chance there to

25:48
gain ground so to speak is what is perceived when you know the reality is the opposite right when someone's

25:53
vulnerable well now there is a chance to gain ground through love and respect all those good things but yeah I think

26:00
when when you're in those negative patterns it's it's about scorekeeping and yeah I think almost trying

26:08
to reduce my shame you know sure in in in the marriage and be like see it's not

26:14
my fault it's your fault or like when there someone's vulnerable be like ha I knew it was you you know kind of thing

26:20
yeah and those things as you know those things are all counter to relationship yeah yeah exactly any yes anytime you're

26:28
keeping score in a relationship and I it doesn't matter what the relationship it

26:34
can be you know I remember uh when we first got married um we would go to some

26:40
friends's house and um before we were getting married we we used to spend a

26:47
lot of time at our friends of ours and they were pretty well off and when we would go there we didn't want for

26:52
anything you know we didn't have to ask if we should bring something it wasn't you know and this is before we married

26:58
we would just go hang out there and then even when we we got married we would continue to hang out with this this family right sure uh well not every uh

27:07
household is that way sure and we kind of learned that the hard way by kind of assuming on other relationships like

27:14
yeah when we go to your house we can it just didn't even occur to me that you should bring stuff it didn't occur to me

27:20
that you shouldn't eat whatever you want you do what you know it's like you couldn't help yourself to the refrigerator yeah exactly I mean I don't

27:26
know that I quite went that far but like if there was something put out I didn't feel any whatever uh but yeah so but

27:34
long story short ended up realizing that there was a little bit of like frustration on the other side of like these people kind of just you know

27:42
almost like scorekeeping right this is like so I'm like okay you know next time I got to top my that score and like

27:49
bring something and not you know not eat as much or whatever and it start started that Dynamic and I started realizing you

27:56
know like that's a reality too for again this other couple was freshly married too so was like they their resources are

28:03
limited and of course that didn't occur to me you know but um back to the whole

28:09
point of like scorekeeping in a relationship what whatever that relationship is causes uh separation

28:16
sure versus bringing together sure that can happen with your contractor right

28:21
like yeah um you know that can happen with your students you know your kids uh

28:28
teacher excuse me they can happen with you know each time there's an offense yeah perceived or otherwise you know

28:35
it's it's a real thing and you know to be able to recognize that and address

28:41
it you know yeah and in some relationships that are real casual I mean it's just a matter of adjusting my

28:47
go all right I got stop sure SC and just be benevolent or whatever but in like

28:53
real relationships it's work right so this is where you yeah I don't know

28:59
um yeah I tried to tee you up but you you missed it did I miss it as far as

29:04
drama and Saga yes yeah earlier you had this tremendous

29:09
quote about drama versus your Saga and I I want I want you to tie that into to

29:16
marriage if you can sure I and and I think you know for me there's a

29:21
difference you know when I think of drama I think of you know tremendous

29:27
highs tremendous lows you know and and and that's not to say that marriage isn't doesn't have those MH but I think

29:35
you know when we can recognize that marriage marriage done well is more like

29:41
a saga it's a Continuing Story it's a it's a journey and those highs and lows

29:47
are part of it but yet I can still see that there's a lot of

29:54
good between the highs and the lows that are just it's okay you know it's okay

30:01
for us to be okay you know there it doesn't have to be you know um romantic

30:09
and exciting all the time there's something to be said for the ability to

30:15
say I I'm I'm good to hold your hand and we're in this for the Long Haul even if we're disagreeing even if we can't see

30:23
eye to eye right now I'm still going to reach out not you personally but I'm

30:28
going to reach out and you know hold your hand in such a way that says I'm still physically here yeah you know and

30:35
I think that becomes that that's part of the Saga that continues that when we

30:41
when we're able to recognize this is part of a journey and you know and there's going to be these life cycle

30:46
stages and you know and I don't think you know and I can say that in two words

30:52
and yet I recognize you know having kids and raising kids and you know early you

30:57
know Toddlers and you know an adolescence and empty nest and you know

31:03
losing parents you know that's that's all part of life cycles it happens to everyone and there's going to be a lot

31:11
of you know identity change that goes along with that there's going to be aspects of what my purpose is you know

31:18
where my security comes from my ability to you know a couple's ability to accept

31:24
one another you know recognizing you know God is from my perspective you know God is that Source you know for all of

31:32
those things but in the midst of change so often I look to my spouse to Define

31:39
some of those things and you know especially you know acceptance and you know that kind of thing or security you

31:45
know it's going to be it's going to be you know big for you know majority of females that kind of thing so yeah

31:51
that's uh that's just a part of it I just I just really see things from that

31:58
that Journey perspective yeah and I think I love it right I think that's the healthy perspective and is about you

32:05
know when when going through the drama to understand that this is not the whole

32:10
thing this is a saga this is a part of the Saga an end to a chapter or you know

32:16
like sure you know if you think about a long book right The Saga and there might

32:21
be dramatic moments but they're setups for like the end or of a chapter to start a new chapter or whatever and I

32:28
think that's a healthy way to think about it is this drama is not the end you know this drama doesn't represent

32:34
all of our marriage and and all that it's you know meant to be and you know what I mean it's it's it's a moment in

32:40
time and it's part of a longer journey and yeah I just really like how you put and I think I think the thing I like

32:46
about you know when I think of life cycles and you know and you think of you think of good stories you know there is

32:53
there there is this cycle of learning you know I learn you know I don't whatever the story is you know I learn

32:59
as a as a I'm going to write the story here but you know I I'm thinking of something like um even like

33:06
Yellowstone okay you know you you they they reflect back I'm not familiar with that story so you're going to have to

33:12
draw picture it's a TV it's a TV you know but you know it's this process of

33:17
reflecting back and how I've learned things you know from my family system

33:23
you know that affected me when I was a child and those are the you know as I became an adolescent you know I had

33:29
certain struggles you know the bullies got bigger but you know I had learned how to kind of deal with that as a child

33:35
you know and and or not you know to the degree that I deal with it either in healthy ways you know in relational ways

33:42
or non-relational ways you know that learning and it and it just gets and then I become the you know the hierarchy

33:50
you know the the the leader of the family and those things those cycles that I've learned from are the what I

33:56
teach to those that come behind me right or perpetuate yeah it's a legacy type Dynamic and I see those continued cycles

34:04
and I think the the thing that I like most about the cycle perspective is to

34:10
be able to recognize it's a part of life and even though it's a it's very

34:17
personal when I'm in it if I can step out of it I can recognize okay this is

34:24
what's happening when I do this you do that so if I want to minimize what you doing

34:31
that I need to recognize what I do to contribute and so like you say that's

34:37
that's part of that learning from my perspective and and I believe learning is something that's a ongoing thing

34:43
hopefully yeah makes sense it's a it's a healthy thing um so another question for

34:49
you sure fire away bring back kind of one of our core um buzzwords

34:54
polarization yes what would be some of the polarizing aspects to marriage

35:00
counseling I think just in it itself can be polarizing in the sense that I I

35:06
believe most couples won't enter marriage counseling until they truly believe they need it and I think sure uh

35:14
the polarizing idea would be that I think most couples could use marriage counseling and who doesn't need a who

35:21
doesn't need a little help once in a while with relational struggles you know or something no and I and I think I

35:27
think at times we make it a big thing to talk with someone to go somewhere to you

35:36
know sit down in someone's office and and make time yeah and I

35:43
think I think in our culture um what used to

35:50
happen I'd say more um naturally I was

35:56
trying to more organically that's the word I was looking for more organically was um our family systems were more

36:04
connected so you know if I didn't if I couldn't necessarily you know if I was a

36:10
young married and I couldn't necessarily talk with my my parents I probably had a

36:16
grandparent that I could go to you know that it's kind of been observing things all along maybe never really said

36:24
anything but yet when I got to the point of saying hey my wife's crazy you know I

36:30
had that other older adult who could probably say ah maybe it's not your wife

36:36
yeah what do you what what helped me understand where you where you're going what you're doing you know those kind of

36:42
things that basically was able to kind of speak into me in a way that no one

36:49
else could yeah and I think you know not that I think as we have become more

36:56
mobile you know that that um nuclear family

37:01
system has has been separated and I have less influence you know I have less

37:06
ability to be influenced by those former Generations that I'm able to listen to to that you know that I have that can

37:13
speak into who I am and I think that's where relationship is so important and I

37:19
think you know to have someone that I can go to

37:24
that is impartial and you know can kind of speak to what's going on I think is very

37:31
beneficial and I think you know that stigma um that you know well you know

37:37
only people who really have issues need a marriage you know need to go for the therapy you know there is something well

37:45
we don't want to admit something's wrong with us you know that kind of thing so no we don't need to well in the same

37:52
time it's not that we need therapy we just need a little help yeah and so

37:57
therefore sometimes when we need a little help that's a good time to talk with someone who who might happen to be

38:03
a therapist versus just ignoring it or trying to brush it under the rug that

38:09
kind of thing yeah does that make sense yeah it does I imagine your job would be much easier if people would come when

38:15
they need a little help yeah you know yeah but you're you're having to take them when they're at there do something

38:21
Mark or else yeah that's that's very true you know cuz we're at this

38:26
typically people are at the point of okay we're we're separating this is this is kind of our last last shot at this

38:36
otherwise yeah we're calling it good so I would say you know the polarizing

38:43
statement would be you need marriage counseling if you have a marriage you

38:48
could you you could use some marriage counseling so and I and I think when I

38:53
think that becomes a polarizing topic within couples yeah because when a

38:59
spouse comes to one's spouse and says hey we need to talk with someone it's

39:04
like what am I doing wrong yeah how am I doing it wrong if you just if you just cut this out we wouldn't have

39:11
to yeah because of the defensiveness yeah yeah yeah if you just stop this

39:19
yeah you know we'd be good there's no need you just need to stop yeah well

39:26
okay I'll stop but you have to stop this first yeah yeah well I'm not going to stop that till you stop you stop first

39:33
you stop first you know that's yeah that's where that defensiveness is is deeply ingrained at that point yeah yeah

39:40
yeah and I think those Cycles can start so early but we're very gracious and

39:45
benevolent in the beginning right yeah sure I like well that's just how he is you know yeah you know she whatever you

39:53
know and and even to I think your scorekeeping plays into that because you

39:58
know there was a time when we were friends and we just accepted each other

40:03
like my other friend like my friend Justin you met my friend Justin now some

40:10
people who know Justin might say well he's a little crazy you know but I'm gonna say now you know that's just

40:17
Justin he's my friend I want I'm not going to get caught up in the name calling or you

40:24
know that defining you by your behavior because you're my friend mhm I'm there's

40:29
going to be an acceptance there mhm and what happens in marriage is we get to this transition and we we move from

40:37
being friends to being married yeah and we start looking at we start looking at

40:44
flaws and we we take on the desire to fix that you just and and now we start

40:51
identifying each other by our flaws mhm and we lose that friendship yeah it's

40:57
good and we you know and it comes back to being able at times to be able to say okay um I I just ex I'm I'm recognizing

41:06
that's who you are and realistically you know that's who I married yeah yeah and

41:13
you know and and I'm not saying you know we accept unhealthy Behavior don't get me wrong there but yet there's a point

41:19
where part of that is is what we were attracted to at the very beginning and

41:26
now some of those characteristics have become unattractive now I want to change

41:31
yeah it's kind of like the stick we talked about right sure yeah very much so yeah um yeah and I think I think one

41:38
of the most common time times in your marriage where

41:44
you could really benefit from marriage counseling is the first couple years when those patterns are starting to

41:50
become ingrained or like set in where that transition starts to occur from friend to foe sure or whatever you know

41:59
kind and you know we talking about polarizing opposites I mean you know in marriage we're almost culturally

42:04
incouraged to become Polar Opposites like well a woman's always needs this a

42:10
man always needs that when there's you know it's there's a lot of tropes right about what marriage looks like sure um

42:16
when the reality is we need those things to break down and for that friendship to be maintained throughout the course of a

42:22
marriage and for a lot of those stereotypical Notions

42:28
to be minimized sure both in our actions so that we don't fall into those traps

42:34
but also in our reactions to our spouse to recognize that just because they do this thing that many wives do doesn't

42:40
make them this villain that is portrayed everywhere when wives do this thing sure

42:46
right like there's a method to the madness or whatever I hear you you know what I'm saying yeah I do and I I think

42:52
the the first part where you were saying you know early on so often I think you know as we do you know as I'll do like

42:59
even premar you know I think um my my

43:04
goal is to be able to catch up with that couple like a year from now after they get married my goal would be to C

43:10
because it is at that point where you're starting to it's like there's a lot of reality yes no offense that sets in you

43:18
know none taken yeah before before we're getting married until and then a year

43:23
after we're married there's a lot of reality that sets in yes and it's like okay now I'm seeing you in a little

43:31
harsher light you know where there was this soft you know glow yes yes now

43:38
there's a spotlight glaring on some you know issues so yeah yeah and and there's a

43:45
perception before you're married when you're standing at the altar that there's going to be that magical glow

43:51
that covers even the flaws and and and will continue and um M that magic glow

43:58
that's natural and free flowing prior to marriage takes work sure right and you

44:04
know I don't even know if that's the right term for what a good marriage looks like afterwards I mean a good

44:10
marriage afterwards looks like work it looks like you know putting in the time the effort the the the intentionality

44:17
sure right yeah yeah it's good um yeah so if you're just married go get some

44:24
marriage counseling yeah no seriously I me just to be able to talk with someone

44:29
y you know and I'm I'm I'm a big fan of marriage mentoring you know finding people you know who you know have been

44:37
just married longer than you have and who you look up to who you know who are in the process of you know raising kids

44:45
and you know you their kids seem to be you know fairly well behave they're

44:51
still kids of course and you know they're not robots but yet at the same time you know they tend to listen or you

44:58
know that kind of thing find somebody like that Y and be able to you know say hey can we can we get together even if

45:06
we invite them to our house and we Supply them with the the meal you know it's like this is an opportunity where

45:12
we can say okay you know what did you do here how did you handle this you know

45:17
what are your thoughts on this we have we have this reoccurring thing you know and I think so often what that does is

45:24
it normalizes you know the is isues that we have cuz so often our tendency is to

45:29
think oh my goodness we're messed up this we're the only other we're the only couple that ever has had to deal with

45:35
this you know and when we're able to recognize oh okay no that's that's a

45:41
part of where we're at what I really like about this concept is it's essentially preventative maintenance

45:48
right like you don't necessarily have to get to the point where you're in desperate need of a marriage therapist

45:54
and you know you're on the road you can do some preventative maintenance in the terms of just finding a mentoring couple

46:02
to get together with and start to identify some of those patterns early and like you said normalize some of

46:07
those things lose some of the shame yeah like that can happen early and you don't have to call it marriage counseling if

46:13
if that's a polarizing terminology for you like sure you know what I mean I think that's cool that's very cool the

46:19
idea of finding finding a mentoring couple and I think in all honesty that's what Drew us initially to becoming you

46:26
know is just you know that opportunity yeah it was how how often you know we were looking at you know people in our

46:33
own home you know that would just kind of want to talk and you know and we'd be doing that you know and I and I

46:39
think I I should probably change that just a little bit probably my favorite part is actually doing this with Chris

46:47
you know when we're able to you know sit down with a couple you know that's that that is one you know one of my favorites

46:54
you know granted hearing that part where people accept that that you know ability to recognize there's nothing wrong with

46:59
them but yeah I do and like you say when we do the classes and so forth yeah that's my favorite part yeah yeah cuz

47:07
you and Chris regularly lead uh marriage on the Rock class and how we love

47:12
classes at our church which is cool or you get to do that together yep yeah it's awesome uh any other aspects to

47:20
marriage counseling that you would consider [Music] polarizing huh I

47:28
is uh it's funny because I was just thinking about you know being male and

47:33
female tends to be polarizing as it is as literal as possible and then as our

47:39
culture has uh adopted um the title marriage for same-sex couples you know

47:47
that's that's another polarizing aspect of you know of marriage counseling as

47:52
what you know what was once you know primarily what well you know defined as

47:59
a male and female I think that has become you know more po more polarizing as you know government has you know

48:07
adopted the the title of marriage you know even for same-sex couples that kind of thing and that's not to say that you

48:13
know some of what I do isn't effective for same-sex couples as well and yet

48:20
there is also um there is also that difference um between you know

48:26
heterosexual couples and same-sex couples when it comes to you know talking with them in relationship that

48:32
kind of thing so yeah that can be that's just another polarizing one that comes from you know I think you know we're

48:39
designed so differently between male and female you know that that that's part of

48:44
that polarizing thing and just just the way to kind of stay with that just the way that you know women tend to view

48:53
life and men tend to view life is just so it's it's polarizing from that dynamic

49:01
in and of itself yeah it's interesting we we recently had in fact we just uh switched

49:08
to a new one but we had a you know marriage um series at church and you

49:14
know one of the last ones we talked about some of the needs of women needs of men and I recognize as we kind of

49:20
went through the points for what women need and what men need how even those things can become polarized

49:27
to the degree where there's going to be certain women who say you're saying I need security um no you know and

49:34
understanding that I I do think I mean you you would know better than I do having been around

49:40
more couples and stuff I do think there are some pretty significant patterns between men's needs and women's needs

49:46
and there you know there's tons and tons of curriculum based around his needs and her needs and kind of how to balance

49:54
them um but and yet yet and yet I think that may be a polarizing as becoming

50:01
more and more of a polarizing aspect as culturally we try to shift from the

50:07
significance of of of uh genders right sure to the degree where we say well

50:13
women can do you know whatever a man can do and and men can do whatever a women can do and they when you say caregiver

50:19
shouldn't be assumed it's the mother can be the father and of course I agree with that um even to the degree where you

50:25
can't say women or men either because it could be transgender and you know like kind of um so like it's homogenized yes

50:32
thank you thank you right word for that so I think even to say well it's a woman

50:39
thing is it can be very polarizing right to be able to say well women typically

50:44
need security can again for some women especially depending on how how they

50:50
grew up potentially they learned how to fight for themselves and they don't need a man and that that can be polarizing

50:56
right how how do you speak to that well I think there's a reason why there's so

51:01
many books you know and topics on you know uh you know uh I'm thinking of Ed's

51:09
stuff um love and respect you know he wrote the book you know women you know

51:14
um women desire love you know men desire respect and I think I think when we look

51:20
from my perspective from a Biblical basis you know there's just a different

51:27
I I go I go clear back to Adam and Eve there is just a difference

51:33
between the way Adam was created you know the to the to the point that um Eve

51:40
was created in the garden okay Adam was created outside the

51:46
garden in the the Wilderness the Wilderness if you will in the dust yeah and Out of the Dust and Out of the Dust

51:52
you know that kind of thing and it you know from from that perspective there's just a difference

52:00
you know and that's that's not to say women have to be in the home all the time it's not to say that men can't care

52:06
for kids and you know and I but yeah even even for the most part you know

52:13
women are just going to look you know you look at kids the majority of women

52:18
are just going to look at kids from a more nurturing standpoint yeah you know

52:24
I mean that's just the way it is that's not to say that men can't be good

52:29
nurturers and it's not to say that you know some certain women

52:34
might say that's not who I am that's not who I want to be you know I would rather do this but you know as a whole you know

52:43
when you just talk with people in general you know they're going to recognize okay yeah and yet that doesn't

52:50
mean that the the male Dynamic um is wrong

52:57
mhm you know and that that there is a there is an aspect of okay you're fine get up you know that kind of thing I'm

53:03
not saying that in a general sense but as in as a polarized Dynamic of the

53:09
nurturer right you know and it's and it's like I I think that's

53:14
beneficial and so often I think our tendency is to homogenize it in such a

53:19
way this says I can do what you can do just as well as you can and

53:25
therefore I from my perspective we both lose a sense of purpose yes when we're

53:31
when we're looking to do it that way yeah and I I find too like even in our marriage when

53:38
I when I feel bad right about the work that Megan's doing in the areas that

53:44
she's doing it and I'm like man I got to step up my game and I try and be better at nurturing for instance it's just not

53:53
natural and I you know not I'm not saying I should nurture again this is I

53:59
don't think either of us are saying one has to do the the thing and the other shouldn't that's not the point but the

54:04
point is it comes naturally for her it just flows out of her and for me it requires work work work you know like

54:10
come on be nurturing come on yeah be kind about their their OE you know like

54:16
it's it's okay you know like um and so whenever I start to feel kind of bad

54:22
about what she does naturally and trying to fulfill that role I tend to really

54:28
struggle whereas when we're able to both identify what it is we're are we we're

54:34
good at we're naturally sure it's become natural for us and when we when we

54:39
operate in those natural places we do so well especially when we're in

54:44
communication about that you know we kind of in agreement about yeah you take care of that part I'm going to take care of this part yeah we do really well it's

54:52
when we feel like we have to stretch over to the other side and do the other thing is when we start struggling and even to

54:59
the point back to your point about even the purpose starts to feel a little bit

55:04
lost like what's my purpose here you know and like when I try like just using

55:10
the nurturing thing and I and I fail at it again and again again you know being as good at it as she is and going man I

55:17
didn't I think the kids could have used more a better nurturing Sure Response

55:23
and I kind of failed at that right like as as I continue to fail in those ways it's like man this this stuff's hard you

55:31
know and you start to yeah kind of lose sense of that purpose where yeah so I

55:36
definitely and I think it's as you were sharing it's like um I can remember

55:42
early on when we first had kids um Chris

55:48
actually did Creative Memories you know the the scrapbooking type stuff and that

55:53
was a tremendous turning point in our relation ship

56:00
um that was a tremendous turning point in our relationship just because um she learned to depend on me

56:09
to take care of the kids cuz for so long she had been in the home and and granted

56:14
she was a fabulous fabulous mother you know structures routines things you know

56:21
meals at the same time you know that kind of thing you know there was a lot of security for our kids cuz you know

56:28
they knew exactly what was going to happen you know and I was I was outside the home

56:34
you know doing our thing and it worked great and and she just you know had this desire to have this purpose and it's

56:42
like okay and so I can come home at you a certain time be home and but yet the

56:49
way I parent our kids you know meal time

56:54
you know what we did for activ it was completely different and you know

57:00
I mean I can remember our kids well our kids tell the story or laugh about it you know for me a booster seat was a

57:08
cordless drill box you know in the back of the truck I could sit them on that booster seat you know i' I'd you know

57:14
stack up a cordless drill box you know and it's like it boosted them up and I'd put the seat belt around them you know

57:19
and and we were good to go and I don't say that you know in a in a light sense

57:24
but it was just the way that we did it back then and you know it was different

57:29
but it wasn't wrong yeah and so often I think that's the that's the issue you

57:34
know you're different is wrong yeah because and it it was definitely a

57:40
growing part of our relationship when Chris was able to say okay just because

57:46
he does it completely different doesn't make it wrong right and when I come home you know ultimately the kids are fed you

57:53
know changed they're in their bed sleep and it's a good day yeah you know it may

58:00
not look yeah it got done and everybody's safe yep yep and I think you

58:05
know so often we get too critical about it yes and so yeah that was just what

58:12
was coming to mind and it goes both ways to um just thinking of ways in which I I

58:19
see Megan doing things go that's not how I would do it you know really it goes both ways and but really I mean that's

58:25
that's exactly what this podcast is about is about talking about those two ends and

58:30
saying which one's wrong well wait a minute maybe neither one maybe there's a there's a middle ground and it's worth

58:36
discussing like sure again how Mark would you know run the household when when Chris is at work versus Chris

58:42
running the household and Marcus at work they may be polarly opposite the way it's handled they're going to look

58:47
different and yet like you said the health of the kids at the end of the day is what matters and you know sure yeah

58:54
and and learning like oh on that side isn't necessarily all bad and on this side isn't necessarily all good is

59:00
really what we're trying to accomplish here is like sure let let go a little bit of your preconceived notions of how

59:07
great your side is yeah a little bit you know and embrace potentially some

59:12
opportunities and and benefits of the other side of the the spectrum that maybe you're missing because you're so

59:19
polarized on the side you know no I agree and I think part of it is you know

59:24
I appreciate about Chris Chris understood our kids got a completely different experience yeah you

59:31
know it's like yeah the there there might have been a little more mess on the floor there might have been a few more clothes on the floor there might

59:36
have been more dishes in the sink but yet you know the kids would talk about you know being able to go outside and

59:42
see and deer and see it you know and I just gave them a completely different experience and you know I think they

59:49
benefited from that you know that Dynamic and that was when Chris was able

59:54
to say okay yeah this is this is this is still good this is okay still good yeah

1:00:00
y yeah that's good but yeah that was good thank you for sharing

1:00:05
a little bit about your journey Mark and a little bit about marriage counseling well happy to do it yeah hopefully we

1:00:11
dispelled some of the polarization hey there you go that's what we do that's what we desire to do to do attempt to do

1:00:18
very much how this is how I see it [Music]

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