0:06
yeah never do that well that brings up a good point though oh really what point is that Mark I was thinking about it

0:14
where were you on 911 911 I was well the which year true

0:24
true was I born that's funny cuz there's a lot of people mhm yeah I mean that's

0:32
that's a weird thought there's a lot of people who aren't born yeah at that at that time but my

0:39
[Music] children welcome to how I see it with me

0:47
Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to

0:53
countercultural polarization through thoughtful conversations

1:01
yes yeah how are you I am well it is good to be here you seem more awake than

1:07
me which is good well you know we should we should have at least one of us awake during this recording of episodes

1:15
exactly yeah it's ideal if we were both really awake but yeah we'll get there in

1:20
past episodes it was the birds true now we

1:25
have crickets yes indeed so it's getting to that time of year where it's a little darker outside when we start little

1:32
harder to get up in the morning cuz the sun isn't up that's true yeah and the Crickets man they are yep just loving

1:38
that I'm assuming you can hear it but yeah I can hear it yeah you can hear it whether our audience can yeah I don't

1:45
think there's a cricket filter probably not probably

1:51
not and would you and would you actually use it even if there was you'd want the Crickets in there you know

1:58
Birds I appreciate a little more because their Cadence is kind of varied right

2:04
like it's it's a little bit randomized no I got you crickets they get to me

2:09
after a while now now our people are listening at that all they're going to hear is the Crickets they're going to be

2:14
so irritated because I'm bringing this up but you know how that goes when you bring up a flaw to someone yeah and then

2:21
they can't forgive it ah right all they can think about is that flaw over and

2:27
over you should never do that don't that bring up a good point though oh really what point is that Mark I was thinking

2:34
about it where were you on

2:39
911 911 I was well the were you born which year true true was I born that's

2:48
funny cuz there's a lot of people MH yeah I mean that's that's a weird

2:54
thought there's a lot of people who weren't born yeah at that at that time but um my children yeah yeah like say I

3:01
mean um I was in school high school M

3:06
and we were just in class I don't remember which class

3:11
but actually no we were in some sort of uh

3:18
choir or something like that and so we left that room and went to a classroom where they had one of those big old CRT

3:25
TVs you know that they was use for Learning and stuff and they had the news play and we all gathered in one big

3:32
classroom like I went to a very small high school so it was pretty much the whole High School gathered classroom

3:38
sure all 20 30 of us all 20 kids were in one room the whole high school was there I got you I mean that's that's that's

3:45
reality that's what it was yeah okay and um yeah we just sat there watching it

3:51
was very surreal it felt I mean surreal is a good word felt fake right it felt

3:57
yeah uh beyond belief unreal yep yeah this is this is a hoax almost some

4:04
somebody's somebody's pulled a practical joke somebody's videoed something and it's really going to be found out to be

4:10
untrue here in just a bit right and even in my high school brain that was the

4:15
first gut feeling and then the second was how yes how would they orchestrate

4:21
this level and then I'm like well then how would they orchestrate you know the like once two hit you knew there was

4:29
orchestration right like one was a fluke two was like what's going on three you

4:36
know you know there was two in the two in New York right yeah two in the Trade Centers one at the Pentagon and then

4:43
there was one that didn't quite make it right right cuz someone hijacked it and exactly went down to Pennsylvania yes

4:50
yeah not hijacked they hijacked it and someone hijacked the hijack exactly it

4:55
was rehack they caused it to go down prematurely right yeah yep so yeah once some of that stuff the

5:02
news started trickling I was like it's just unbelievable to me and

5:07
then at that point you didn't know what was many airplanes was it was it a bug

5:13
was it y 2K come late you know what I mean like oh because it wasn't that far

5:19
from y 2K no I hear you right 2001 yeah

5:24
it's just one year Offset you know yeah well year in n but right anyway that's

5:32
my answer no and that's why I mean and and in clarification yes my kids were born but you know I mean they were very

5:39
young at that point and I just remember you know being a father that kind of thing for me I can remember I was uh

5:47
doing a construction job I was you know putting an addition on a house and I

5:52
just remember how you know for my terminology it was just a bluebird day

5:58
you know just the sky was clear and you know to where even to this day there are

6:05
times when I look up and there if there's not a cloud in the sky I am still reminded of that day wow just

6:13
because of how clear the sky was and then I remember of course you know I forget whether it was the next two weeks

6:19
but you know I mean there was no traff there was no air traffic you know for a long time after that to where you know

6:26
there were no you know Chemtrails whatever you want to call you know there were you didn't see

6:33
any airplanes flying overhead for a long time after that and it just seemed to be

6:40
you know a reminder because it was just it just stayed clear and that's and that's I don't know about Michigan but

6:47
in New York having a clear yeah excuse me Minnesota I did I you know having a

6:53
clear blue sky for an extended period of time in New York is is a foreign thing

7:00
sometimes you follow me so and I so to this day even and so that that was just kind of a

7:07
a of a neat thing and I was and I one other thought that I'm going to throw at you see if we can get you real do you

7:14
remember the slogan that came out of 911

7:20
remember well you're pretty close never forget that never forget and it was

7:27
interesting how dare me ex L but I was it was interesting we uh we did a uh the

7:34
F3 group did a a 9911 run you good there yeah cool

7:41
cool so we did a 9911 run this morning or this this past weekend on Sunday and

7:48
it was to that point of as we ran you know that was that was

7:56
what our desire was is to honor that 9/11 that thought of not forgetting you

8:02
know and I personally started to wrestle with that because I was interest I was

8:09
intrigued number one as we ran it was like people would say hey what are you

8:14
doing and we'd say well this is a 911 run you know and we're just and it's like oh yeah that's

8:21
today you know and yet there were also people who were you know kind of out

8:27
just observing the it was you know early morning they were out drinking their morning coffee and there were some that

8:32
you know actually kind of clapped and and whistled a little bit you know just kind of saying okay yeah nice job you

8:39
know encouragement if you will affirmation and it was just like onlookers you're talking about yeah in

8:45
other words they they didn't know we were coming but they understood they they were able to draw that connection

8:52
that this these guys are out here probably in honor of 911 cuz they were able to draw the connection on that

8:59
Sunday morning between oh yeah today is 911 and that's what these guys are doing

9:04
other people on the other side were it's like what are these guys doing and you

9:10
know when we drew the connection for them you follow me and I and I it so it was interesting for me being a part of

9:17
that in that process of people who had forgotten people who

9:23
hadn't forgotten and I just really started wrestling with this aspect of

9:31
never forget balanced with forgiveness or holding a grudge you

9:38
follow me it's like I was I was wrestling with it just personally of

9:45
okay it's when things happen okay there's definitely a a part

9:52
of us that remembers you follow me and the more I'm affected by

9:57
something like you know the fact that this could happen again this could be

10:03
you know with 911 specifically I'm I'm that was with the the connection for me

10:08
with this process of you know never forget I I I started wrestling with that

10:15
balance of forgiveness and forgetting and that's where I was just

10:20
curious where your thoughts were as far as how you know when things happen to us

10:28
when you know even even and I recognize our audience is is Broad and I don't

10:36
want to you know be crass you know I I I

10:41
really want to respect you know some people have been abused some people have

10:47
been neglected that kind of thing they've been hurt in ways that I can't imagine so I'm not just saying yeah you

10:55
need you need to forget I'm because we can't but yeah how do we wrestle with

11:01
that ability to forgive in such a way that doesn't necessarily hold a

11:07
grudge while we're still able to recognize okay I'm not I'm going to tend

11:14
to be a little more Vigilant I'm going to watch over that thing or I'm going to be a little bit

11:20
I'm different now because I've been through that experience

11:26
MH thoughts yeah I mean depending on what you went

11:33
through it becomes transformative to the point where forgetting is not an option because it literally made you a

11:40
different person right yeah um and I don't know that I this kind of

11:46
gets to a bigger question is there a difference between a personal Grudge and a national Grudge no and that and then

11:54
cuz my wheels were turning as you were talking right I'm thinking like it's kind of this idea of a National Grudge

12:00
like we're all in this together to hold this Grudge kind of thing and obviously it's not just about The Grudge the call

12:06
to never forget it's also about remembering the courage of the firefighters and the and the the First

12:12
Responders and you know the the kind of a memorial for those that lost their

12:18
life you know it's like so is that a grudge though at that point even or is it just is it just about the other not

12:25
just but is it a memoral you know and my hunch would be to say most people would

12:33
say that was probably the intent I certainly

12:38
think probably a majority of us took on a dual meaning with that right no yeah

12:43
and that's and I think that's where I was wrestling personally and and I think

12:50
majority of us like it's very much like my brain really started to worry come

12:56
like we cheer for our favorite team and we Boo the other team right there's a big part of that that's

13:03
very team oriented but it's not like the other team just scored on you and you're booing no the other team just literally

13:11
killed hundreds of people yeah I mean that's a yeah so if there's something worth

13:17
having a grudge offer nationally that would be it all that being

13:24
said grudges never really helped a situation right right they they are well

13:32
known to be Catalyst for making situations worse right yeah wor

13:39
worsening situations um and so in that case if we were to have continue to hold our

13:45
national Grudge and whatever I think there's very high well I I don't even

13:52
get into that but as far as kind of our Global presence I think there's something to be said for whether that

13:58
Grudge should be held or not right based on um diplomacy with those various

14:03
countries sure that may or may not I mean I don't think Afghanistan likes that that whole thing as part of their

14:10
history right that Obama was Bin Laden is from Afghanistan right right or had

14:15
ties that kind of thing I think so yeah I don't know if he's from there or not but they don't want that Association

14:21
right sure I I'm most I would say right um in in that moment it definitely put a

14:30
Target on that people group if you will yeah and I and I think you

14:37
know back to that that Grudge healthy

14:42
memorialization Grudge you know that kind of thing I think there was at that

14:48
time I can still remember you know a beneficial unification if you will that we you know

14:56
currently don't have which I also think was part of the never forget sure and

15:02
concept I think it was wrapped up all of that kind of yeah and that's where I'm saying the memorializing of yes this

15:09
could happen someplace else we lost you know American

15:14
citizens it was a unifying MH you know I don't I really

15:20
don't think you know in the whole planning of it you know from a if I may

15:25
speak from a from a terrorist perspective you know I can't but you know I really don't think I don't think

15:33
that in that moment had anybody thought that they would recognize the kind of unification that came out of this you

15:40
know and there was this unilateral support that basically you know began

15:45
this war on terror to a certain degree you know and I and I think that was a if

15:51
you will that was kind of a backlash yeah of of result and I you know yeah my

15:57
guess would would be that they were hoping for division sure right right

16:03
fear if I were a terrorist yeah I would I would prefer that over unification yes

16:10
yes yeah that's interesting and so that's that that's kind of where I was this weekend is just processing these

16:18
different aspects of you know never forgetting is it and and granted I agree

16:25
with you that when something hurts us and we are

16:31
changed it is I would say impossible but if I maybe I should say very difficult

16:39
to forget and yet even in the process of daily

16:47
life sometimes we do forget it's the it's the it's the other things that come

16:53
it's you know not necessarily the triggers but it's the other connections

16:58
that remind us of those moments at times it's not that 9911 is continually in my

17:06
brain or I'm you know in my memory and I'm thinking about it and in that process of never forgetting because

17:13
sometimes I can forget yeah but it's not a matter

17:18
of losing that thought alog together because when this time of year comes or

17:23
when I see a clear day you know I'm reminded of that yeah

17:29
and that's something that was nationally crazy impactful right sure oh

17:37
yeah personally for me my life changed very little other than the exposure of

17:43
what was going on like just hearing about it over nonstop yeah and I'm not

17:48
complaining I'm saying that that was my new outlook for a month two month three months whatever it was it's just this

17:55
story unfolding right sure but it's as far as my personal life goes like I

18:00
wasn't getting on a plane anytime soon anyway you know and uh it was very

18:06
minimally impactful to me personally and so forgetting is not difficult right

18:13
like just but I think you know if we're comparing this to personal trauma or whatever that's where things drastically

18:20
change right because I mean you were saying things will bring it up right triggers essentially sure well the

18:26
triggers are going to be a lot more um plentiful and impactful Y with a

18:32
personal trauma situation and and I think go ahead you you I'm sure have

18:38
more thoughts on this in terms of counseling and what the the education you've receed but like forgetting seems

18:43
like um uh a kind of a silly goal when rather the goal should be more about

18:49
learning to deal with the memories and learning how to process them in a proper

18:55
way so that it actually makes you better stronger whatever when you're triggered sure how you do

19:02
that I mean that's your domain or whatever but like that would be my cuz like telling someone just you have to

19:07
forget it we're going to work to forget it seems that's like saying don't think of an elephant sure right sure of course

19:15
that's all you you know what I mean yeah like every time we we meet you know in a counseling session like all right did

19:20
you forget it yet yeah right like it doesn't yeah oh so what are your thoughts no and that's and I think for

19:27
me you were saying it had had um little impact based on your life cycle stage um

19:35
I can remember just it varied from person to person how

19:43
9911 impacted them yeah you follow me because I I can remember that day I re I

19:51
received a delivery you know on the job site and and my it was like the delivery

19:58
person was very was was truly fearful you know it was almost like you

20:05
know what's going to happen next what what what's coming what's you know this

20:10
this aspect of for booting that was there it was almost as if he just couldn't wait to get his deliveries made

20:18
for that day and he was looking to go home and I think you know that was a part of it you know it's like you had

20:23
that tendency to say okay we need to we need to Rally our family together and

20:29
and you know go bunker up yeah because you know we have been attacked yeah and

20:36
and and I I can remember that I think you know but and yet on the other end of that there were people who were

20:44
basically saying okay we need to do something about this what are we going to do armor up yeah bunker up or armor

20:51
up you know and there were probably those in the middle that were saying okay both you know that kind of thing

20:57
but I I remember you know as an adult that being the experience and it was

21:04
definitely a a topic of conversation and you I can go ahead to be clear I definitely was not saying it wasn't

21:11
personally traumatic to lots of people I say I was really trying to say about how

21:18
I saw it sure I I just heard a story this week of someone who talked about who worked in New York uhh who had to

21:26
try and work the rest of the day and just that idea of doing that was

21:31
traumatic to them and then they carried a gas mask in their purse for I don't know how long a year whatever sure you

21:37
know what I mean yeah so sorry to mean in but I wanted to clarify I'm not saying it wasn't personally traumatic

21:44
for a huge chunk ofans because of the way it touched so many aspects but right

21:50
from your perspective you saw yeah and and it was interesting the another component that I actually had to meet

21:57
another fellow and he actually was from you know or grew up outside the city you

22:02
know and he was in New York Upstate with us and and it was and I can remember he

22:08
didn't know it had happened at all and I was the first person to tell him and it

22:13
was like no don't don't lie to me Mark come on that's not funny that's not that's not a you know cuz we were good

22:20
friends and you know we joke along but he says no that's not funny I says I'm not joking you know and it really took

22:26
some convincing almost on my part cuz he just like like you were were saying you know it's like that can't be

22:33
mhm man just makes me think about how Invincible we think and what

22:41
thought we we are you know and I mean it was crazy crazy awesome as

22:50
a believer that at that time we kind of all rallied around the in God we trust

22:57
you know became like everyone's praying everyone's looking for a church to go to

23:02
you know it was it was crazy that way yeah and I think it was such a stark

23:10
reminder an in yourface reminder how of how you're not in control sure you know

23:17
and in instant like snap your finger remember America you're not in control

23:23
yeah and and I don't mean uh you know Osama bin Lan was in control just that could happen on on on our watch you know

23:31
it instantly made us go well who's in control you know let's let's find him and and talk to him you yeah um and I

23:38
think that was really cool I don't feel like that was the same when it came to the um pandemic which is a similar sure

23:46
control type you don't have it you know yeah and I I think I think the as you

23:52
described it you know the team team a and Team B there was a less finded

24:00
opponent you know I mean unifying against who the pandemic you know but

24:06
yet I agree with you in that context of I can't remember a time when you know

24:15
we were so unified as a nation and to the point of kind of the in God we trust

24:21
and that would be a and and I think it's a in some ways it is a aspect of how

24:27
soon we can forget it's not about never forget it's like how soon we do

24:33
forget and we say okay yep so many years

24:38
we got this under control again we're we're back in we got it God yeah you know and I'm not saying that's the case

24:45
but I I think for me personally that's not my desire I should say but I think

24:50
you know it's a Dem it's demonstrated when if you probably walked up to

24:56
someone and on Sunday and said you know hey what's today you know uh I'm not

25:03
sure you know I'm not saying that's everyone yeah but that would have been undeniable right you know 10 even 10

25:11
years ago 10 years ago probably yeah but I just it just it just in combination

25:18
with the slogan and our human uh experience and our ability to forgive or

25:25
forget you know the lack of our ability to forget and yet we still have this

25:32
ability to forgive yeah and it's just it's just that was uh that was a part of

25:38
the wrestling and I figured uh it was just a what was your thoughts though on uh what I was saying about forgetting

25:45
like in terms of is that is that was was my theory correct in terms of

25:50
like yeah trying to help people for forget right that whole concept and I

25:56
forgive me curious what your thoughts yeah I mean let's I'll bring it back to trauma like

26:01
you like you shared um the reality of

26:07
trauma is everybody you know if if your your case in point as you described

26:14
going to school and what happened that day and bringing everybody together is a

26:19
part of your personal timeline you follow me you go to kindergarten going

26:26
to you know grow growing up you know that whole process everybody has a

26:31
timeline and and to a certain degree everybody has not everybody has had what

26:38
I call Big capital T trauma like PTSD near-death experience type stuff but I

26:45
think that's that's what many in you know the twin towers and in the Pentagon

26:51
and in Pennsylvania you know yeah that for them that was big capital T trauma

26:59
near-death experience I could die and I definitely saw others who did you follow

27:05
me that's that's that's what I call you know Big T Capital trauma M but yet

27:11
there are other near death isn't the only thing you would Define that way though right also abuse or different

27:16
things like that right yeah yeah but still even that abuse I can even be concerned for my life yeah you know

27:23
physical abuse that kind of thing but yeah so how I clarify trauma is is

27:28
there's the big capital T near-death experience and then you have smaller Capital T's down to you know lowercase

27:36
te's and they just you know so there is a a spectrum going to say use our word

27:43
Mark is that word Continuum spectum Spectrum either way of of of this trauma

27:50
experience yeah okay so it's not that and on the on that lower end would be

27:57
you know hurt if you will versus trauma there I think there can be a you know a defining

28:03
that's different there yeah but the reality of trauma is that in that moment we have been

28:12
affected and our primary function takes over and flight or fight mechanisms go

28:19
into play you follow me all of our senses are sensing that you know there

28:24
is some danger we're seeing these images we're you know hearing this fear you

28:30
know so in that moment okay trauma doesn't sit on that timeline you can

28:38
tell me about the day unless it's a traumatic day you can tell me about the first your memory from the first day of

28:44
school you know first day of kindergarten it could have been a traumatic experience changing but yet

28:50
typically you'd say and I met my friend and I did this and you know that timeline would roll but if you're

28:57
experience ing something in a in the lines of trauma whenever your primary

29:03
function kicks into play with one of those factors it's going to be like

29:09
yesterday you're right there that's how trauma differs so when I hear that tone

29:15
when I smell that smell when I you know see that look it's like boom I'm right

29:23
back there and it doesn't matter and I and I would dare say you know I actually

29:30
come to think of it I do uh through F3 there's a there's a fellow that I know

29:35
who was at the you know the twin towers and he was part of that he's actually been reimbursed I I was glad to hear it

29:43
he's actually been reimbursed by the 9911 fund for organs that he lost I yeah

29:50
it's un unreal I'm I'm thankful for it but yeah yeah he says you know I due to

29:57
you you know the um carcinogens and so forth I forget I I want to say it was liver function you know he lost a part

30:04
of his liver and that kind of thing and you know and just you know lungs there you know to where you know I'm I'm

30:11
thankful that they are being reimbursed you know and and yet I I I feel for them

30:18
in that process of you can't replace it you know money doesn't replace an organ

30:24
but yet at the same time we're recognizing that these people sacrificed

30:29
on behalf of many you know so and the sacrifice alone that they did is can be

30:35
another story but you know I'm I'm reminded of that and um because he we

30:42
talked about you know whether he was going to go back for the 20th you know as far as

30:50
just he wasn't sure he wanted all those memories you know to come back and

30:57
because he could you know tell you exactly he could tell you where that timeline was and yet he could tell you

31:03
of the trauma as well and I that's I think that's the part the closer we are

31:09
to a a hurt or something that I think it does make it more difficult to forget

31:15
yeah I mean it's yeah the closer we are the more difficult it is to forget I want to make sure I got that in the

31:21
right order yeah yeah I get it so yeah it's just uh it was just uh so when you

31:27
work with someone who's dealt with drama whether it's you know life drama whatever it is again I guess my question

31:34
is how do you coach them assuming you don't say just work on forgetting it right right I guess and I

31:43
I think there's two there's two factors in some ways well there's more than two factors but I and here again I believe

31:50
it's an important part even where 911 is concerned that the freedom that I can

31:55
find in forgiving m and forgiving others recognizing that um even even those who

32:04
you know perpetrated if you will against us on 9/11 you know there was

32:11
a a purpose in it for them that we might not necessarily completely understand

32:17
you know there's just you know from a from a terrorist perspective and I'm not a I'm not a you know a specialist in

32:25
Terrorist thought pattern what's funny is we put terrorists in the special category like it's you

32:33
me the citizen of France citizen of a Afghanistan us normal people and then

32:40
there are terrorists right and um I don't know think I take issue with the

32:46
concept that they are a cut different right hear um I'm sure you know right

32:52
Osama Bin Laden absolutely was a cut different in his ability to Mastermind

32:57
something like that and to be motivated to do it um however

33:04
uhuh yet we can understand he has a purpose though yeah and and I think

33:10
that's that's the part when we recognize okay yes there are fundamental

33:16
differences between us as individuals to where yes if I had from my perspective

33:24
if I had grown up in the same way that Osama Bin Laden did I would be making

33:31
many of the same choices based on my ideology if you

33:36
will you follow me and I and I think that's the part that when we can

33:42
recognize that you know we understand that human Dynamic that kind of combines

33:49
us all yeah I'm not making this you know Universalist Unitarian type slogan you

33:56
know that we're all but being able to recognize that yes the impacts we have

34:02
growing up make a difference in who we become and I think at that

34:09
point yes the way I grew up will tend to affect how I hurt

34:16
people because I'm recognizing that I'm in in my perspective I'm recognizing

34:23
that I am flawed and there are others who are flaw flawed as well and in our

34:30
flaws we desire to hurt people now you and I may hurt

34:36
people on a more localized familiar lever level you know but if we

34:43
were not I shouldn't say you know if I'm just G to go with me not include you we

34:50
were terrorist no I'm saying if I had a greater

34:55
influence to influ inuence a larger amount of people as Osama did you know

35:03
then I could mobilize people in a greater way to also hurt people MH along

35:11
with the I'll call it an agenda that I might have a bent if you will that I

35:17
have to hurt people who I see as hurting

35:23
me or that I am intolerant of yeah and I think that becomes from me for me the

35:30
difference Us and Them is an ideology yeah does that make sense yep

35:38
and so so therefore I think it does create that um team a team B Team B Team

35:45
a so therefore people of a different ideology tend to be the other team

35:53
mhm and and so I think you know that ability to recog recognize that for me

36:01
as as even as a therapist that process of recognizing okay I can understand how

36:07
they saw it so differently and I can recognize that there is this desire to hurt people from

36:16
that level on that level you follow me and and and that's

36:22
not to say that in some ways the the whole aspect of terrorism as a whole

36:29
hasn't happened for has hasn't gone on for years and years I you know my um my niece her

36:36
husband you know was in a you know terrorist attack more localized like a bombing you know at a cafe you know we

36:44
look at 911 as this you know the twin towers and and granted at that point

36:50
there had never been anything like that but yet you know in our history you know

36:56
even um in our human history terrorism has been going on for a long time yeah

37:03
absolutely you know and even that bomber school shootings or whatever like you

37:08
said if they somehow had had access the people who perpetrated these things had access to a following sure you know

37:17
there's there's certainly a chance they could have could have mobilized that

37:22
following yeah you right sure um yeah at I think it's I think a couple things the

37:30
importance of um empathizing not sympathizing empath

37:37
being able to understand how someone can get there um is kind of what you're

37:43
talking about but also very important distinction that um empathy is not

37:49
acceptance or you know forgiveness is not acceptance like I accept sure what they did no it's not about acceptance

37:56
It's about understanding right right yeah is that correct no and I and I think that's that's that's a part of

38:01
that as I learn and I and that's where as you ask me the question that's it's

38:07
relearning you know for me what that is what that looks like to where even even

38:13
though that primary function every part of me is basically saying there's a threat here there's a threat here I just

38:19
heard something there's a threat here there is that process of being able to say no you know that's not artillery

38:28
fire that's fireworks this is the fourth of July you know that relearning that basically is able to

38:35
keep executive function online being able and and just to make that long

38:41
story short executive function is where we you know make our decisions like an

38:46
executive our planning our you know those kind of things primary function is where flight or fight mechanisms come

38:51
into play yes if you will but all of our therefore you know all of our senses are

38:58
connected to our primary function so in a traumatic experience our primary

39:05
functions take over is what you said yes and the goal is as you learn to work

39:11
through trauma is to keep your executive function online in other words not let the primary function take over again and

39:18
again and again because yes it's useful though right like in moments of trauma you need right that's what it's for it's

39:25
not designed to deal with your interaction with your mother-in-law exactly yeah and yet there are aspects

39:33
you know where I love my mother-in-law just just want to we all do Justin well

39:41
your mother-in-law you know I can honestly say I know your mother-in-law so yes I love your mother-in-law but I love my mother-in-law too so yes I know

39:47
your mother-in-law as well there you go so but in that process and is this is the this is the deal okay primary

39:55
function is designed by God to Keep Us Alive therefore it's very strong but not

40:01
smart yeah okay executive function is not as strong but it's very smart so if

40:09
I can keep the executive function online by recognizing okay what is really

40:15
happening versus what I'm perceiving you know is this accurate then I

40:21
am better equipped to keep executive function online versus allow

40:28
primary function to shut that down CU that's what that's what primary function has the ability to do you shut up I'm

40:35
taking the driver that's exactly it that's exactly it the communication shuts down and it's all about self-

40:42
protection at that point so I take driving analogy and say if you're able

40:49
to keep through work through work through the work that you do to to to

40:54
process and and to learn how to keep the executive function online mhm it's still

41:00
your primary function is still trying to kick you out of the driver's seat so it's like you're driving with one hand on the wheel and you know the the monkey

41:08
in the back's trying to knock you out of the seat and you so you're not only are you having to do the executive part well

41:14
drive you know do whatever but you're also beating off a monkey uhhuh sure right and that's

41:20
why right that's why things like medication exists or whatever you know like there are pres prescriptions

41:27
in C certain cases to deal with uh with with that right to be able to allow you

41:32
to fight that off a little easier I don't know I'm just there's medications there's medications for many

41:38
things and I would in your analogy say that's always necessary I'm just saying

41:43
like maybe not even the monkey but yet there's this hyper vigilance that I'm looking in my

41:49
rearview mirror while I'm trying to go down the road I'm I'm torn I'm I'm I'm thinking

41:57
somebody's coming and they're going to come from the power behind or you think the monkey's there and it's not fair

42:04
enough or you're like keep checking the back seat or you're ducking because you think he's swinging at you but he's he's

42:09
not there yes that's yeah I that's that's fair enough I we can I know you

42:15
do I can I can tell I can tell you want to stay with the monkey and that's okay too who

42:22
doesn't but that becomes that becomes the trauma and that's the the part where

42:27
I'm you know personally as I've been reflecting on this never forget yeah you know it is I think there is an aspect

42:35
that basically says oh yeah it's it's okay to be vigilant because there are

42:42
people who may desire to hurt me because I have been hurt before you follow me and yet at that

42:50
same time if I'm the one you know who's

42:56
trying who it I find myself driving my car trying to dodge the imaginary monkey you know

43:04
that's that's impacting me yeah and my ability to have freedom and I think you know that's

43:11
where the work of being able to recognize what happened the relearning

43:18
if you will that basically says okay and it's even beneficial for me to connect

43:24
forgiveness with that because I can recognize when I'm able to do that on a

43:30
larger scale I'm able to do that on a more individualized scale as well to

43:36
where I'm going to be able to recognize that sometimes the people that love me

43:42
the most can also hurt me the most and therefore you know and I can I recognize

43:48
that I can do the same thing I I and who I am tend to hurt my wife on occasion

43:56
you know is it intentional not necessarily but no more mine would be no

44:01
more intentional than her desire to hurt me at times unknowingly well and then we can extend

44:08
that that's that's in my aspect where empathy comes into play is the ability

44:14
to say okay I can understand that and therefore I can forgive and I don't

44:20
necessarily have to continue to hold that against you or continue to remember

44:26
that in a sense that is Grudge making mhm and yet I can still remember it in a

44:35
way that says oh yeah I did that too and I and I think you know that's

44:41
that's been where my wrestling has been in some ways of creating how how how

44:47
those how that can be so complex yeah depending on a personal experience where

44:53
I am who's hurt me how they hurt me that kind of thing and I and I guess that's

44:59
that's the uh the beauty of forgiveness as I've been walking through that is

45:05
yeah we can still pray for people who are completely different than us in such

45:11
a way that says okay help me or help them MH change me change

45:18
them and help me to see the difference yeah it's good your

45:24
thoughts I had like bunch of them came sorry I talked so long you lost your

45:30
thought I I considered

45:36
interrupting as as we do as I do and I was like no I need to hear the rest so

45:42
thank you for that um okay a couple things I was thinking

45:47
of that that hurt people hurt people right so if you got a monkey in your back seat you're trying to dodge it you

45:52
know it swings or keep him from taking over the driver's seat you're likely hurting other people in the process but

45:58
you're too concerned with that monkey to notice or care I hear you right M and um

46:03
so I think you kind of your point it's the goal would be to reduce that

46:10
stuff for your own sake cuz it's hurting you but it's also hurting those around

46:15
you um and then also then the monkey analogy this idea that I think part of

46:22
what you're saying part part of what I was saying is like there is a monkey sometimes where it's close enough to the

46:27
event or the trigger is strong enough to where that primary function really is trying to take over and you have to

46:34
actively remember no this isn't this this isn't this and you're on top of it m you can't stop thinking you can't stop

46:42
for a second or your executive function goes away and primary takes over fight or flight right sure so you have to stay

46:47
on top of it it's that monkey literally trying to knock you out of your seat I think the work that you do through

46:53
therapy and counseling is to get enough and enough um I guess learning and and

47:02
and investigation the thing to recognize okay when is it happening when isn't it

47:07
so that when it feels like it's happening my executive function can go

47:12
yes no no okay you shut up and then it the fight becomes ideally as you grow as

47:19
you do therapy as you work through it the fight becomes less difficult each fight sure not ever

47:27
say I'm not saying it ever goes away or whatever you might be someone who whenever you walk into the store you

47:32
have to fight the fight M you know what I mean and hear some days it's a it's a you know you get bruises and some days

47:38
it's just you hush and you you know you go on right yeah um but I think that's

47:44
the work of working through trauma and forgiveness and all that right is a little bit of being able to recognize no

47:49
this isn't that therefore I don't have to do what was done then right right I

47:55
can do what I would normally do here yeah and I don't know no and I appreciate you bringing up

48:03
the aspect of time being beneficial in our ability to overcome behaviors you

48:10
follow me to where it is a responsive type thing to where yeah you know a week

48:18
after you know 911 or after a traumatic experience is is far different than 20

48:24
years yeah and even in some cases you know it's I think even if we're looking

48:30
at it from a memorialized standpoint or a Vigilant standpoint never forget can

48:35
be applicable yeah you follow me because I can become complacent if you will and

48:42
I forget the things that I once did that were beneficial yeah the unification of

48:48
our nation you know we we can forget that and maybe we shouldn't mhm you know

48:53
forget that but in you know personal trauma Dynamic the further I get from

48:59
that as I learn to recognize the triggers and I learn to recognize it's

49:05
not the same you know my primary function may want to say this is exactly

49:10
the same you're about to die you follow me but I'm I also able to recognize no

49:17
this hasn't happened again in however long and each time I get a little

49:22
further down away from that reactivity you know then I'm able to say

49:28
yeah see we're okay we're okay you know and and that that is very much a process

49:35
of time and gaining insight and relearning

49:41
what in that moment and I think and I I think the relearning is important for all of us in the midst of

49:48
hurt because in that moment we can automatically say you're the enemy boom

49:56
MH all in all done yeah Target Target set you know push the button yeah you

50:04
know I'm not you know I don't mean to be crude but I mean you know it it can be that way yeah when in reality that

50:11
person doesn't necessarily have to be an enemy MH in the process of hurting me

50:18
yeah that's the whole polarized thing that we talk about all the time right and I mean I even think about you going

50:24
back to the comparison with uh 911 versus the pandemic and

50:30
how quickly we kind of shifted to our sides

50:36
you know mask or not a mask vaccine not a vaccine uh this thing's real this

50:42
thing's not real yeah um it's nothing but the flu or it's killing our

50:48
grandmothers just we so quickly and what I was what was so interesting it was the

50:54
opposite of 9911 and that was there was no unification it like half my friends went One Direction half went the other

51:00
direction so I'm like wait which which side do I follow cuz I like both of these people yeah and and I think part

51:06
of that yeah makes perfect sense because in from my perspective and it's kind of neat to you bring up the point I think

51:13
that's what makes it so difficult is it's hard to understand or Define what the truth is right so and and therefore

51:21
I have my version of it you have your version of it whereas 911 yeah I mean

51:27
every news Outlet was telling you you're really on that Fringe you know Edge if

51:33
you're saying no that was still all a hoax yeah you know or you know it it's

51:39
yeah it's something other than it was you know it's like you're really out there yeah where it was it's not like

51:47
that pmic yes it's like every person's locked in their house but this isn't

51:53
real it's like well yeah real or not it's pretty real and there again some of that would some

52:00
of even the you know the aspects of the pandemic you know or it it came down to

52:08
who was affected how close was the person that di that died you know with

52:13
covid how close how many how close of proximity were those people to meh you

52:19
know cuz granted the the news would put the big names out there but at the same

52:25
time you know there the people that had close friends who you know were on

52:31
ventilators and and were gone shortly thereafter it's like yeah this is a real deal others who said who might have

52:39
experienced nah nothing I don't know anybody all my familyes okay yeah that's a tremendous difference and I think that

52:45
is a part of it it's like when the truth is hard to determine I think there is

52:53
more tendency towards the polarization yep yep and I think it you know kind of

52:58
back to our mission to a certain degree it's those it's the facets of okay where

53:05
did you get vaxed did you not get vaxed it's that facet that tends to lead to

53:10
the polarization oh well you know you got VX you're you you don't care about are

53:17
exactly and you're not VX well you're going to you're going to kill you're going to be the one that's responsible for my grandmother's death because I'm

53:24
interacting with you and you know that's where that polarizing you know thoughts come from and it's just a yeah when

53:32
there is that inability to discern the easily discern the truth thing is it's

53:37
not I think you know the news is a big part of that right sure now we have yeah

53:44
so I don't think the ideal is to go back to the news all shaking hands and say

53:49
yeah this is what we're going to say and so we're all like on this one agenda I don't think that's better I think what's

53:56
better is to do what we're trying to do here which is move through this stage

54:01
where now this says Oh you mean there's 18,000 viewpoints well how are we supposed to deal well we're supposed to

54:07
be kind supposed to listen we're supposed to empathize we're supposed to think I wonder if there's some way in my

54:14
mind I can Envision going to the level that Osama Bin Laden did like you were

54:20
just describing what would it take and thinking through that and going versus going no I would never do that cuz I'm

54:27
an American Patriot it's like no even that ideology there's something to that

54:33
that's you know I don't know you get what I'm saying um but the work that it takes to kind of walk to the other side

54:39
and then walk back if you want to but at least take a look around you know and uh recognizing oh the people over there are

54:47
kind of like me mhm and the things they care about is kind of like the things I care about they're just pointing a

54:52
different direction right and I and I think as you were sharing even that you know it does bring up the point that yes

55:00
even in the midst of having the conversation or the discourse to a

55:05
certain degree I can still be hurt I don't have control over that you know

55:12
I'm not saying you know we should we should not have the conversations but just having a conversation doesn't make

55:18
the the difference necessarily go away but as I get to know someone at a

55:25
different level there is still a greater opportunity to accept that individual you know for for who they are

55:33
and what they see and and yet that person can still choose to hurt me yeah

55:41
and I you know and and I so I think you know yes I I think it it kind of comes

55:46
back to that even you know that governmental Dynamic of you know well we

55:52
need to have more negotiation you know negotiation isn't necessarily going to solve everything

55:58
that's that's my take I mean even in the process of the passion I have for this

56:03
eventually we have to make a decision okay how am I going to move forward and are we going to be able to

56:11
say okay yes we're going to choose to dis agree to disagree on this even though I know where you stand and I

56:17
respect who you are I'm going to choose not to be vaccinated or I'm going to choose to wear the mask or I'm going to

56:24
choose to move forward and that's not the same as the you know the 911 scale

56:31
but I think you know it recognizes that I can't always be in control which I

56:38
think is a healthy thing for me to to recognize as

56:43
well so yeah I appreciate your uh your willingness to enter into the discussion

56:49
on uh never forget right never forget yeah so hopefully you know we've been

56:55
able to share some truth that will never be forgotten but even if it is that's okay too all right someone smarter will

57:02
say I'm better yeah in the Future No Doubt no doubt if not tomorrow that's

57:07
okay that's how we see it that's how we see [Music]

57:14
it hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

57:21
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh and or talk nicely

57:30
about us on social media if you want to reach out the email is us how I see

57:37
it.click yep I said doclick as in c c k please

57:45
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

57:51
[Music]