Justin:

Never do that.

Mark:

Well that brings up a good point though.

Justin:

Oh really? What point is that Mark?

Mark:

I was thinking about it. Where were you On 9-11.

Justin:

9-11. I was. Well, the which year?

Mark:

True. True.

Justin:

Was I born That’s funny. Because there’s a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s a weird thought. There’s a lot of people who aren’t born.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

At that at that time. But uh

Mark:

my children. Welcome to How I See It with me, Mark Pratt and Justin Sternberg. This is a podcast that works to counter cultural polarization through thoughtful conversations.

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah. Yes. How are you?

Mark:

I am well. It is good to be here.

Justin:

You seem more awake than me, which is good.

Mark:

Well, you know

Justin:

We sh we should have at least one of us awake during this recording of episodes.

Mark:

Exactly. Yeah, it’s ideal if we’re both really awake, but yeah, we’ll get there.

Justin:

In past episodes, it was the birds

Mark:

True.

Justin:

Now we have crickets.

Mark:

Yes indeed.

Justin:

So it’s getting to that time of year where it’s a little darker outside when we start.

Mark:

A little harder to get up in the morning.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Because the sun isn’t up. That’s true. Yeah.

Justin:

And the crickets, man, they are

Mark:

Yep, just loving it.

Justin:

I’m assuming you can hear it, but

Mark:

I can hear it.

Justin:

Yeah, you can hear it.

Mark:

Whether our audience can. Yeah.

Justin:

I don’t think there’s a cricket filter.

Mark:

Probably not. Probably not. So and would you and would you actually use it even if there was? You’d want the crickets in there.

Justin:

You know, birds. I appreciate a little more because their cadence is kind of varied, right? Like it’s it’s a little bit randomized No crickets they get to me after a while. Now our people who are listening at that all they’re gonna hear is the crickets the rest they’re gonna be so irritated because I’m bringing this up. You know how that goes When you bring up a flaw to someone and then they can’t forgive it.

Mark:

Right?

Justin:

All they can think about is that flaw over and over

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You should never do that.

Mark:

Well, that brings up a good point though.

Justin:

Oh really? What point is that, Mark?

Mark:

I was thinking about it. Where were you on 9-11?

Justin:

9-11. I was well the preborn which year?

Mark:

True. True

Justin:

was a born. That’s funny. ‘Cause there’s a lot of people.

Mark:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s a weird thought. There’s a lot of people who weren’t born.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

At that at that time. But uh

Mark:

my children, yeah. I say for instance. I mean

Justin:

Um, I was in school, high school, and we were just in class. I don’t remember which class, but Actually, no, we were in some sort of uh choir or something like that. And so we left that room and went to a classroom where they had one of those big old C R T TVs, you know, that they was used for learning and stuff. And they had the news playing and we all gathered in one big classroom. Like I went to a very small high school so it was Pretty much the whole high school classroom. All twenty, thirty of us.

Mark:

All twenty kids were in one room. Yeah. The whole high school was there. I gotcha.

Justin:

I mean that’s that’s that’s reality. That’s what it was. Yeah.

Mark:

Okay.

Justin:

And um Yeah, we just sat there watching and it was very surreal. It felt I mean surreal is a good word. Felt fake, right? It felt

Mark:

yeah uh beyond belief. Unreal.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

Yeah This is this is a hoax almost. Somebody’s pulled a practical joke, somebody’s videoed something, and it’s really going to be found out to be untrue here in just a bit

Justin:

Right. And even in my high school brain that was the first gut feeling and then the second one was how?

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

How would they orchestrate this level? And then I’m like, well then how would they orchestrate you know, the like once two hit, you knew there was orchestration, right? Like one was a fluke. Two was like what’s going on? Three, you know you know, there’s two in the Two trade centers, right? Yeah. Two trade centers. One at the Pentagon. And then there was one that didn’t quite make it.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right? Because someone hijacked it and

Mark:

Exactly.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Went down to Pennsylvania, yes.

Justin:

Yeah. Not hijacked. They hijacked it and someone hijacked the hijacked.

Mark:

It was re-hijacked.

Justin:

They caused it to go down prematurely, right?

Mark:

Yes. Yep.

Justin:

So yeah, once some of that stuff the news started trickling, I was like it’s just unbelievable to me. And then at that point You didn’t know. What was n how many airplanes? Was it was there a bug? Was it Y2K? Come late? You know what I mean? Like, oh ‘Cause it wasn’t that far from Y2K.

Mark:

Now I hear ya.

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Oh.

Justin:

Two thousand and one?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

It’s just one year offset, you know? Yeah. Well, year and nine months, but

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Anyway, that’s my answer.

Mark:

No, and that’s why I mean and and in clarification, yes, my kids were born, but you know, I mean they were very young at that point and I just remember, you know, being a father, that kind of thing. For me I can remember I was uh doing a construction job. I was, you know, uh putting an addition on a house. And I just remember how, you know, for my terminology, it was just a bluebirdie day You know, just the sky was clear and, you know, to where even to this day there are times when I look up and there if there’s not a cloud in the sky I am still reminded of that day.

Justin:

Wow.

Mark:

Just because of how clear the sky was. And then I remember, of course, you know, I forget whether it was the next two weeks, but you know, I mean there was no traff there was no air traffic. you know, for a long time after that to where, you know, there were no, you know, chemtrails, whatever you want to call it, you know, there were you didn’t see any airplanes flying overhead for a long time after that. And it just seemed to be, you know, a reminder because it was just it just stayed clear. And that’s and that’s I I don’t know about Michigan. But in New York, having a clear, yeah, excuse me, Minnesota. I did I didn’t, you know, having a clear blue sky for an extended period of time in New York is is a foreign thing sometimes. You follow me? So a and I so to this day even. And so that was just kind of a uh of a neat thing. And I was and I one other thought that I’m gonna throw at you, see if we can get you really. Do you remember the slogan that came out of 9-11?

Justin:

Remember?

Mark:

Well you’re pretty close. Never forget.

Justin:

Never forget.

Mark:

Never forget. And it was interesting. Exactly. But I was uh it was interesting. We uh we did a uh the the F3 group did a a 9-11 run. You good there? Yeah, cool cool. So we did a 9-11 run this morning, or this this past weekend on Sunday, and it was to that point of As we ran, you know , that was that was what our desire was, is to honor that 9-11, that thought of not forgetting. You know, and I personally started to wrestle with that because I was interested, I was intrigued. Number one, as we ran, it was like people would say, hey, what are you doing? And we’d say, well, this is a 9-11 run, you know, and we’re just, and it’s like, oh yeah, that’s today, you know And yet there were also people who were, you know, kinda out just observing the it was, you know, early morning. They were out drinking their morning coffee. And there were some that, you know, ac actually kind of clapped and and whistled a little bit, you know, just kind of saying, okay, yeah, nice job, you know, encouragement, if you will, affirmation. And it was just

Justin:

onlookers you’re talking about.

Mark:

Yeah. In other words, they they didn’t know we were coming. but they understood. They were able to draw that connection that this these guys are out here probably in honor of 9-11 because they were able to draw the connection on that Sunday morning between, oh yeah, today is 9-11, and that’s what these guys are doing. Other people on the other side were it’s like, what are these guys doing? And, you know, when we drew the connection for them. You follow me? And I and I it was so it was interesting for me being a part of that in that process of f people who had forgotten, people who hadn’t forgotten. And I just really started wrestling with this aspect of never forget Balanced with forgiveness or holding a grudge. You follow me? It’s like I was I was wrestling with it just personally of okay It’s okay when things happen. Okay, there’s definitely a a part of us that remembers. You follow me? And the more I’m affected by something Like, you know, the fact that this could happen again, this could be, you know, with 9-11 specifically. I’m I’m that was with the the connection for me with this process of, you know, never forget I I I started wrestling with that balance of forgiveness and forgetting. And that’s where I was just curious where your thoughts were as far as how You know, when things happen to us, when, you know, even even and uh I recognize our audience is is broad. And I don’t want to, you know, be crass. You know, I I really want to respect, you know, some people have been abused. Some people have been neglected, that kind of thing. They’ve been hurt in ways that I can’t imagine. So I’m not just saying, yeah, you need you need to forget. I’m because we can’t. But yet how do we wrestle with that ability to forgive in such a way that doesn’t necessarily hold a grudge? while we’re still able to recognize, okay, I’m not, I’m gonna tend to be a little more vigilant I’m gonna watch over that thing or I’m gonna be a little bit I’m different now because I’ve been through that experience.

Justin:

Mm-hmm.

Mark:

Thoughts.

Justin:

Yeah. I mean depending on what you went through, it becomes transformative to the point where forgetting is not an option because it literally made you a different person, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um And I don’t know, th I I this kind of gets to a bigger question, is there a difference between a personal grudge and a national grudge?

Mark:

No, and that ‘s

Justin:

then I because my wheels were turning as you were talking, right? I’m thinking like It’s kind of this idea of a national grudge, like we’re all in this together to hold this grudge kind of thing. And obviously it’s not just about the grudge, the call to never forget. It’s also about remembering the courage of the firefighters and the and the the the first responders and you know the the the kind of a memorial for those that lost their lives. You know, it’s like it’s

Mark:

So is that a grudge though at that point even Or is it just

Justin:

about the other not

Mark:

just. But is it a memorable, you know?

Justin:

My my hunch would be to say most people would say That was probably the intent.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I certainly think probably a majority of us took on a dual meaning with that, right?

Mark:

No, yeah. And that’s and I think that’s where I was wrestling personally.

Justin:

And and I think m majority of us like it’s very much like my brain really started to worry how much like we cheer for our favorite team and we boo the other team, right? Mm-hmm. There’s a big part of that that’s very team oriented. But it’s not like the other team just scored on you and you’re booing. No, the other team just literally killed hundreds of people.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

I mean that’s a Yeah, so if there’s something worth having a grudge offer nationally, that would be it. All that being said Grudges never really helped a situation, right? They they are well known to be catalysts for making situations worse, right?

Mark:

Yeah. Worse

Justin:

worsening situations. Um and so in that case, if we were to have continued to hold our national grudge and whatever, I think there’s Very high le well I d I don’t even get into that. But as far as kind of our global presence, I think there’s something to be said for whether that grudge should be held or not, right?

Mark:

Uh huh.

Justin:

Based on um diplomacy with those various countries.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

That may or may not I mean I don’t think Afghanistan likes that that whole thing as part of their history, right? That Sherman was f B bin Laden is from Afghanistan, right?

Mark:

Right, or had ties, that kind of stuff. I think some guys

Justin:

all yeah, I don’t know if he’s from there or not, but it I they don’t want that association, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I w I’m uh most, I would say.

Mark:

Right In that moment, it definitely put a target on that people group, if you will. And I and I think, you know, back to that that grudge healthy memorialization grudge, you know, that kind of thing. I think there was at that time, I can still remember, you know, a beneficial unification, if you will, that we, you know, currently don’t have.

Justin:

Which I also think was part of the never forget

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I think it was wrapped up all of that kind of thing.

Mark:

Yeah. And that’s where I’m saying the memorializing of yes, this could happen someplace else. We lost, you know, American citizens It was a unifying. You know, I don’t I really don’t think, you know in the whole planning of it, you know, from a if I may speak from a from a terrorist perspective, you know, I can’t. But you know, I really don’t think I don’t think that in that moment had anybody thought that they would recognize the kind of unification that came out of this. You know, and there was this unilateral support that basically you know, began this war on terror to a certain degree, you know? And I and I think that was uh if you will, that was kind of a backlash of of result. And I, you know

Justin:

Yeah, my guess would would be that they were hoping for division.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

If I were a terrorist, yeah. I would I would prefer that over unification. Yes.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

Yeah, that’s interesting.

Mark:

And so that’s that that’s kind of where I was this weekend is just processing these different aspects of, you know, never forgetting Is it and granted, I agree with you that when something hurts us and we are changed, It is v I would say impossible, but if I’ll maybe I should say very difficult to forget. And yet even in the process of daily life, sometimes we do forget. It’s the it’s the it’s the other things that come. It’s you know, not necessarily the triggers, but it’s the other connections that remind us of those moments at times. It’s not that 9-11 is continually in my brain or I’m you know in my memory and I’m thinking about it and in that process of never forgetting. Because sometimes I can forget.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But it’s not a matter of Losing that thought altogether because when this time of year comes or when I see a clear day, you know, I’m reminded of that.

Justin:

Yeah. And that’s something that was nationally crazy impactful, right?

Mark:

Sure. Oh yeah.

Justin:

Personally for me, my life changed very little other than the exposure of what was going on. Like just hearing about it over nonstop.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I’m not complaining. I’m saying that that was my new outlook for a month, two months, three months, whatever it was. It’s just this story unfolding, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

But as far as my personal life goes, like I wasn’t getting on in a plane anytime soon anyway. Right.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And uh it it was very minimally impactful to me personally and so f forgetting is not difficult, right? Like it’s just a But I think, you know, if if we’re comparing this to personal trauma or whatever, that’s where things drastically change, right? Because I mean, you were saying things will bring it up, right? Triggers essentially.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Well the triggers are gonna be a lot more um Plentiful and impactful w with a personal trauma situation. And I and I think

Mark:

Go ahead.

Justin:

You You I’m sure have more thoughts on this in terms of counseling and what the the education you’ve received, but like forgetting seems like um uh a kind of a silly goal when rather the goal should be more about learning to deal with the memories and learning how to process them. in a proper way so that it actually makes you better, stronger, whatever when you’re triggered.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

How you do that I mean that’s your domain or whatever, but like that would be my get ’cause like Telling someone just you have to forget it, we’re gonna work to forget it. Seems that’s like saying, don’t think of an elephant.

Mark:

Sure

Justin:

Right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Of course, that’s all you you know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Like every time we we we meet, you know, in a counseling session, we’re like, all right, did you forget it yet? Yeah. Is that right? Like it doesn’t

Mark:

Yeah. Oh

Justin:

so what are your thoughts? No, and that’s

Mark:

and uh I think for me, uh you were saying it had um little impact based on your life cycle stage. Um I can remember just it it varied from person to person how 9-11 impacted them.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You follow me? Because I I can remember that day

Justin:

I rece

Mark:

I received a delivery, you know, on the job site and and my It was like the delivery person was very was was truly fearful You know, it was almost like, you know, what’s gonna happen next? What what what’s coming? What’s, you know, this this aspect of foreboding that was there. It was almost as if he just couldn’t wait to get uh deliveries made for that day and he was looking to go home. And I think, you know, that was a part of it. You know, it’s like you had that tendency to say, okay, we need to we need to rally our family together. And and you know, go bunker up.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Because, you know, we have been attacked.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And and and I I can remember that, I think, you know, but and yet on the other end of that There were people who were basically saying, okay, well do we need to do something about this. What are we gonna do?

Justin:

Armor up.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah, bunker up or armor up, you know? And there were probably those in the middle that were saying, okay, both, you know, that kind of thing. But I I remember, you know, as an adult. that being the experience and it was definitely a a topic of conversation and you I can go ahead

Justin:

to be clear I definitely was not saying it wasn’t personally traumatic

Mark:

to

Justin:

lots of people. I would say I was really trying to say about how I saw it.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

I I just heard a story this week of someone who talked about who who worked in New York.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

Who had to try and work the rest of the day and just that idea of doing that was traumatic to them. And then they carried a gas mask in their purse for I don’t know how long, year or whatever.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know what I mean?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

So sorry to mean interrupt, but I wanted to clarify. I’m not saying it wasn’t personally traumatic

Mark:

For

Justin:

a huge chunk of Americans because of the way it touched so many aspects.

Mark:

Right. From your perspective, you saw, yeah, and And it was interesting the another component that I actually had to meet another fellow, and he actually was from, you know, or grew up outside the city. you know, and he was in New York upstate with us and and it was and I can remember he didn’t know it had happened at all And I was the first person to tell him. And it was like, no, don’t don’t lie to me, Mark. Come on, that’s not funny. That’s not that’s not a, you know, because we were good friends and you know, we’d joke along, but he says, no, that’s not funny I says, I’m not joking, you know, and it really took some convincing almost on my part ’cause he just like like you were saying, you know, it’s like that can’t be.

Justin:

Man, it just makes me think about How invincible we think and what thought we we are, you know.

Mark:

Hmm.

Justin:

And I mean it was crazy crazy awesome as a believer that at that time we kind of all rallied around the in God we trust Yeah, it became like everyone’s praying. Everyone’s looking for a church to go to. You know, it it was it was crazy that way.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I think it was such a stark reminder, an in your face reminder

Mark:

of

Justin:

of how you’re not in control.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know? And in the instant like snap your finger. Remember , y America, you’re not in control.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And and I don’t mean uh, you know, Osama bin Laden was in control, just that this could happen on on on our watch, you know. It instantly made us go, well, who’s in control? You know, let’s let’s find him and and talk to him.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um I think that was really cool. I I don’t feel like that was the same when it came to the um pandemic, which is a similar

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Control type. You don’t have it, you know.

Mark:

Yeah, and I th I think I think the l as you described it, you know, the team team A and team B, there was a less defined opponent. You know, I mean unifying against who? The pandemic, you know, but yet I agree with you in that context of I can’t remember a time when, you know , we were so unified as a nation and to the point of kind of the in God we trust. And that would be a and I think it’s a in some ways it is a aspect of how soon we can forget. It’s not about never forget. It’s like how soon we do forget. And we say, okay, yep. So many years we got this under control again. We’re we’re back in it. We got it, God.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, and I’m not saying that’s the case, but I I think For me personally, that’s not my desire, I should say. But I think, you know, it’s a demon it’s demonstrated when if you probably walked up to someone And on Sunday and Sunday, you know, hey, what’s today? You know, uh I’m not sure, you know. I’m not saying that’s everyone, but That would have been undeniable.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

You know. T

Justin:

even ten years ago, m about ten

Mark:

years ago, probably. Yeah But I just it just it just in combination with the slogan and our human uh experience and our ability to forgive or forget you know, the lack of our ability to forget, and yet we still have this ability to forgive.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

And it’s just it’s just that was uh that was a part of the wrestling and I figured uh it was just a

Justin:

what was your thoughts though on uh what I was saying about forgetting like in terms of is that is that was was my theory correct in terms of like

Mark:

yeah

Justin:

trying to help people for forget right that whole concept

Mark:

And it I uh forgive me. Yeah, I mean let’s I’ll bring it back to trauma like you like like you shared. Um the reality of trauma is everybody, you know, if if your your case in point as you described going to school and what happened that day. and bringing everybody together is a part of your personal timeline. You follow me? You go into kindergarten, go into you know growing growing up, you know, that whole process. Everybody has a timeline. And to a certain degree, everybody has, not everybody has had what I call big capital T trauma, like PTSD, near death experience type stuff But I think that’s that’s what many in, you know, the Twin Towers and in the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania, you know, yeah, that for them. That was big capital T trauma, near death experience. I could die and I definitely saw others who did. You follow me? That’s that’s that’s what I call, you know, big T capital trauma. But yet there are other

Justin:

death isn’t the only thing you would define that way though, right? Also abuse or different things like that,

Mark:

right? Yeah, yeah. But still even that abuse, I can even be concerned for my life.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, physical abuse, that kind of thing. But yeah, so how I clarify trauma is there’s the big capital T, near death experience And then you have smaller capital T’s down to, you know, lowercase T’s, and they just, you know, s so there is a A spectrum.

Justin:

I was gonna say, use our word, Mark. Use our word.

Mark:

Continuum?

Justin:

Spectrum.

Mark:

Spectrum.

Justin:

Continuum.

Mark:

Either way, of this trauma experience.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. So it’s not that w and on the on that lower end would be, you know, hurts, if you will, versus trauma. There I think there can be a you know, a defining that’s different there.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

But the reality of trauma is that in that moment we have been affected. and our primary function takes over and flight or fight mechanisms go into play. You follow me? All of our senses are sensing that, you know, there is some danger. We’re seeing these images. We’re, you know, hearing this fear, you know. So in that moment, okay, trauma doesn’t sit on that timeline. You can tell me about the day unless it’s a traumatic day. You can tell me about the first that your memory from the first day of school you know, first day of kindergarten, it could have been a traumatic experience changing, but yet typically you’d say, and I met my friend and I did this, and you know, that timeline would roll. But if you’re experiencing something in a in the lines of trauma, whenever your primary function kicks into play with one of those factors, it’s gonna be like yesterday, you’re right there. That’s how trauma differs. So when I hear that tone, when I smell that smell, when I, you know, see that look, it’s like boom, I’m right back there, and it doesn’t matter. And I and I would dare say, you know, I actually come to think of it, I do uh through F3, there’s a there’s a fellow that I know who was at the you know, the Twin Towers and he was part of that. He’s actually been reimbursed. I I was glad to hear it. He’s actually been reimbursed by the 9-11 fund for organs that he lost. I yeah, it’s un unreal. I’m the I’m thankful for it. But yet yeah, he says, you know, I due to, you know, the um carcinogens and so forth I forget, I I want to say it was liver function. You know, he lost a part of his liver and that kind of thing and you know and just, you know, lungs. There’s, you know, to where You know, I’m I’m thankful that they are being reimbursed, you know, and and yet I I I feel for them in that process of You can’t replace it. You know, money doesn’t replace an organ, but yet at the same time, we’re recognizing that these people sacrificed on behalf of many. You know, so and the sacrifice alone that they did is can be another story. But, you know, I’m I’m reminded of that. And um Because he we we talked about, you know, whether he was gonna go back for the 20th. You know, as far as just he wasn’t sure he wanted all those memories, you know, to come back. And because he could, you know, tell you exactly he could tell you where that timeline was. And yet he could tell you of the trauma as well. And I that’s I think that’s the part, the closer we are to a a hurt or something, that I think it does make it more difficult to forget. Yeah. I mean it’s yeah, the closer we are, the more difficult it is to forget. I wanted to make sure I got that in the right order.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah.

Mark:

So yeah, it’s just uh it was just uh

Justin:

So when you work with someone who’s dealt with trauma, whether it’s, you know, life trauma, whatever it is, again I guess my question is how do you coach them? So assuming you don’t say just work on forgetting it, right?

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

I guess.

Mark:

And I I think there’s two there’s two factors in some ways. Well there’s more than two factors. But I and here again I believe it’s an important part even where 9-11 is concerned that the freedom that I can find in forgiving, in forgiving others, recognizing that um even even those who, you know, perpetrated, if you will, against us on 9-11, you know, there was a a purpose in it for them that we might not necessarily completely understand. You know, there’s just, you know, from a from a terrorist perspective, and I’m not a I’m not a uh, you know a specialist and terrorist thought patterns.

Justin:

Well what’s funny is we put terrorists in this special category.

Mark:

Mm.

Justin:

Like it’s you, me the the citizen of France, citizen of Afghan Afghanistan, us normal people. And then there are terrorists.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

And um I don’t know, I think I take issue with the concept that they are a cut different, right?

Mark:

No, I hear you.

Justin:

Um I’m sure, you know

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Osama bin Laden absolutely was a cut different in his ability to mastermind something like that and to be motivated to do it. However,

Mark:

yet we can understand he has a purpose though.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And it and I think that’s that’s the part when we recognize, okay, yes, there are fundamental differences. between us as individuals to where yes, if I had from my perspective, if I had grown up in the same way that Osama bin Laden did, I would be making many of the same choices based on my ideology, if you will. You follow me? And I and I think that’s the part that when we can recognize that, you know, we understand that human dynamic that kind of combines us all.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

I’m not making this, you know, universalist Unitarian type slogan, you know, that we’re all but being able to recognize that yes, the impacts we have growing up Make a difference in who we become. And I think at that point, yes , the way I grew up will tend to affect how I hurt people Because I’m recognizing that I’m in in my perspective, I’m recognizing that I am flawed And there are others who are flawed as well. And in our flaws, we desire to hurt people. Now, you and I may hurt people. on a more localized familiar lever level. You know, but if we were not no I shouldn’t say that, you know, if I’m just gonna go with me, not include you.

Justin:

We were terrorists.

Mark:

No, I’m saying if I had a greater influence to influence a larger amount of people, as Osama did, you know, then I could mobilize people in a greater way to also hurt people. Along with the, I’ll call it an agenda that I might have, a bent, if you will, that I have to hurt people. who I see as hurting me or that I am intolerant of. And I think that becomes uh from me, for me the difference be us and them is an ideology.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Does that make sense?

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And so so therefore, I think it does create that um team A, team B, team B, team A. So therefore, people of a different ideology tend to be the other team. And so I think, you know, that ability to recognize that For me, as as even as a therapist, that process of recognizing, okay, I can understand how they saw it so differently. And I can recognize that there is this desire to hurt people from that level, on that level You follow me? And that’s not to say that in some ways the the whole aspect of terrorism as a whole hasn’t happened for hasn’t hasn’t gone on for years and years. I you know, my um my niece, her husband, you know, was in a you know terrorist attack more localized, like a bombing, you know, at a cafe. You know, we look at 9-11 as this, you know, the Twin Towers, and and granted. At that point, there had never been anything like that. But yet, you know, in our history, you know, even um in our human history, terrorism has been uh going on for a long time.

Justin:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mark:

You know?

Justin:

And even that bomber or school shootings or whatever, like you said, if they ha somehow had a had access the people who perpetrated these things had access to a following.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

You know, there’s th there’s certainly an a chance they could have could have mobilized that following.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

You know, right? Sure. Um, yeah. I th I think it’s I think a couple of things. The the importance of um Empathizing and not sympathizing, empathetic, being able to understand how someone can get there. Um it’s is uh kind of what you’re talking about. But also very important distinction that um empathy is not acceptance or you know forgiveness is not acceptance. Like I accept

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

What they did. No, it’s not about acceptance, it’s about understanding, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Is that correct?

Mark:

No, and I and I think that’s that’s that’s a part of that. As I learn, and I th and that’s where as you ask me the question, that’s it’s relearning, you know, for me what that is what that looks like to where even Even though that primary function, every part of me is basically saying there’s a threat here, there’s a threat here, I just heard something, there’s a threat here. There is that process of being able to say, no, you know, that’s not artillery fire, that’s fireworks. This is the 4th of July. You know, that that relearning that basically is able to keep executive function online

Justin:

,

Mark:

being able and and just to make that l long story short. Executive function is where we, you know, make our decisions like an executive, our planning, our, you know, those kinds of things. Primary function is where flight or fight mechanisms come into play. Yes, yeah. Yes, if you will, but all of our therefore, you know, all of our senses are connected to our primary function.

Justin:

So in the traumatic experience, our primary functions take over is what you said.

Mark:

Yes.

Justin:

And the goal is as you learn to work through trauma is to keep your executive function online. In other words, not let the primary function take over again and again and again because It’s useful though, right? Like in moments of trauma, you need right. That’s what it’s for. It’s not designed to deal with your interaction with your mother-in-law. Exactly. Yeah.

Mark:

And yet There are aspects, you know, where

Justin:

I love my mother-in-law. Just just wanna

Mark:

We all do, Justin.

Justin:

Well, your

Mark:

mother-in-law, yeah, I can honestly say I know your mother-in-law. So yes, I love your mother-in-law, but I love my mother-in-law too. So yes.

Justin:

I know your mother-in-law as well.

Mark:

There you go. So but in that process, and is this is the this is the deal, okay Primary function is designed by God to keep us alive. Therefore, it’s very strong, but not smart.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Okay. Executive function is not as strong, but it’s very smart. So if I can keep the executive function online by recognizing, okay, what is really happening versus what I’m perceiving, you know, is this accurate? then I am better equipped to keep executive function online versus allowing Primary function to shut that down because that’s what that’s what primary function has the ability to do.

Justin:

That’s exactly it

Mark:

That’s exactly it. The communication shuts down and it’s all about self-protection at that point.

Justin:

So take the driving analogy and say if you’re able to keep uh through work

Mark:

Through work.

Justin:

Through the work that you do to process and and learn how to keep the executive function online. It’s still your primary function is still trying to kick you out of the driver’s seat. So it’s like you’re driving with one hand on the wheel and uh you know the the monkey in the back’s trying to knock you out of the seat and you s so you’re s Not only are you having to do the executive part well, drive, you know, do whatever, but you’re also beating off a monkey.

Mark:

Uh-huh.

Justin:

Right? And that’s why Right, that’s why things like medication exists or whatever. You know, like there are pres prescriptions in certain certain cases to deal with Uh with with that, right? To be able to allow you to fight that off a little easier. I don’t know. I’m just

Mark:

medications through it. There’s medications for many things. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would

Mark:

i in your analogy

Justin:

necessary. I’m just saying like

Mark:

Maybe not even the monkey, but yet there’s this hyper-vigilance that I’m looking in my rearview mirror while I’m trying to go down the road. I’m I’m torn. I’m I’m I’m thinking somebody’s coming and they’re gonna come from the power behind the

Justin:

or you think the monkey’s there and it’s not.

Mark:

Right?

Justin:

Or you’re like keep tracking the backseat or you’re ducking because you think he’s swinging at you but he’s not

Mark:

there. Yes. That’s yeah, I give that’s that’s fair enough. I’ll I we can see I know you do. I can I can tell. I can tell you want to stay with the monkey and that’s okay too.

Justin:

Who doesn’t?

Mark:

But that becomes that becomes the trauma. And that’s the the part where I’m, you know, personally as I’ve been reflecting on this, never forget.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, it is, I think there is an aspect that basically says, oh yeah. It’s okay to be vigilant because there are people who may desire to hurt me because I have been hurt before. You follow me? And yet at that same time, if I’m the one, you know, who’s try who i I find myself driving my car trying to dodge the imaginary monkey, you know, that’s that’s impacting me.

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

and my ability to have freedom. And I think, you know, that’s where the work of being able to recognize what happened, the relearning, if you will, That basically says, okay, and it’s even beneficial for me to connect forgiveness with that because I can recognize when I’m able to do that. on a larger scale, I’m able to do that on a more individualized scale as well, to where I’m going to be able to recognize that sometimes The people that love me the most can also hurt me the most. And therefore, you know, and I can I recognize that I can do the same thing. I s I and who I am tend to hurt my wife on occasion. You know, is it intentional? Not necessarily, but no more mine would be no more intentional than her desire to hurt me at times, unknowingly. And then we can extend that. Where empathy comes into play is the ability to say, okay, I can understand that. And therefore I can forgive. And I don’t necessarily have to continue to hold that against you or continue to remember that in a sense that is grudge making and yet I can still remember it in a way that says, oh yeah, I did that too. And I and I think, you know, that’s that’s been where my wrestling has been in some ways of creating how how how those How that can be so complex.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Depending on a personal experience, where I am, who’s hurt me, how they hurt me. that kind of thing. And I and I guess that’s that’s the uh the beauty of forgiveness as I’ve been walking through that is yeah we can still pray for people who are completely different than us. in such a way that says, okay, help me or help them. Change me, change them. And help me to see the difference.

Justin:

Yeah. That’s good.

Mark:

Your thoughts?

Justin:

Hmm. I had like a bunch of them. Sorry, sorry.

Mark:

Sorry I talked so long, you lost your thought.

Justin:

considered interrupting as as we do, as I do. And I was like, no, I I need to hear the rest. So uh thank you for that. Um Okay, a couple things I was thinking of. That hurt people hurt people, right? So if you got a monkey in your backseat and you’re trying to dodge it. you know, it swings or keep ’em from taking over the driver’s seat. You’re likely hurting other people in the process, but you’re too concerned with that monkey to e notice or care.

Mark:

I hear you.

Justin:

Right? And um so I think v you know, kinda your point it’s The goal would be to reduce that stuff for your own sake ’cause it it’s hurting you. It’s but it’s also hurting those around you. Um and then also it then the monkey analogy In this idea that I think part of what you’re saying par part of what I was saying is like there is a monkey sometimes where it’s close enough to the event or the trigger is strong enough to where That primary function really is trying to take over and you have to actively remember no this isn’t this, this isn’t this, and you’re on top of it You can’t stop thinking you can’t stop for a second or your executive function goes away and primary takes over, fight or flight, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

So you have to stay on top of it. It’s that monkey literally trying to knock you out of your seat. I think the work that you do through therapy and counseling is to get enough distance and enough um I guess learning and and and investigation the thing to recognize, okay, when is it happening? When isn’t it? So that when it feels like it’s happening my executive function can go yes, no, no, okay, you shut up. And then it the fight becomes ideally as you grow, as you do therapy, as you work through it, the b fight becomes less Difficult. Sure. Fight.

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Not ever say I’m not saying it ever goes away or it’s whatever. You might be a some someone who all whenever you walk into a store, you have to fight the fight. You know what I mean? And it’s Some days it’s a it’s a you know, you get bruises and some days it’s just you hush and you you know you go on, right?

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um But I think that’s the work of working through trauma and forgiveness and all that, right? Is a little bit of being able to recognize, no, this isn’t that, therefore I don’t have to do what was done then.

Mark:

Right.

Justin:

Right? I can do what I would normally do here.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

And I don’t know. I just

Mark:

no, and I appreciate you bringing up the aspect of time. being beneficial in our ability to overcome behaviors. You follow me? To where it is a responsive type thing to where, yeah. you know, a week after a you know nine eleven or after a traumatic experience is is far different than twenty years.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And even in some cases, you know, it’s I think even if we’re looking at it from a memorialized standpoint or a vigilant standpoint, never forget can be applicable. You follow me? Because I can become complacent, if you will. And I forget the things that I once did that were beneficial.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

The unification of our nation. You know, we we can forget that. And maybe we shouldn’t. You know, forget that but in, you know, personal trauma dynamic, the further I get from that As I learn to recognize the triggers and I learn to recognize it’s not the same. You know, my primary function may want to say, this is exactly the same. You’re about to die. You follow me, but I’m I also able to recognize no this hasn’t happened again in however long. And each time I get a little further down away from that reactivity you know, then I’m able to say, yeah, see, we’re okay. We’re okay. You know, and and that that is very much a process of time and gaining insight and relearning what In that moment, and I think and I think I think the relearning is important for all of us in the midst of hurt, because in that moment we can automatically say, you’re the enemy. Boom. All in, all done.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Target target set. You know, push the button.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. I’m not, you know, I don’t mean to be crude, but I mean, you know, w it it can be that way. Yeah. when in reality that person doesn’t necessarily have to be an enemy in the process of hurting me

Justin:

Yeah, that’s the whole polarized thing that we talk about all the time, right? And I mean I even think about you going back to the comparison with uh nine eleven versus the pandemic and how quickly s we kind of shifted to our sides, you know? Mask or not a mask. Vaccine, not a vaccine. This thing’s real, this thing’s not real.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

Um it’s nothing but the flu or it’s killing our grandmothers Just we so quickly. And what I was what was so interesting, it was the opposite of 9-11, and that was there was no unification. It was like

Mark:

Half

Justin:

my friends went one direction, half went the other direction. So I’m like, wait, which which side do I follow? Because I like both of these people.

Mark:

Yeah. And I and I think part of that makes perfect sense Because in from my perspective, and it’s kind of neat to you bring up the point, I think that’s what makes it so difficult, is it’s hard to understand or define what the truth is.

Justin:

Right.

Mark:

So and and therefore I have my version of it, you have your version of it. Whereas 9-11

Justin:

Yeah

Mark:

I mean you ‘re

Justin:

Every news outlet was telling me.

Mark:

You’re really on that fringe, you know, edge if you’re saying no, that was still all a hoax.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

You know, or you know It it’s it’s something other than it was. You know, it’s like you’re really out there.

Justin:

Yeah. Where n it was it’s not like that. Yes.

Mark:

Yes

Justin:

It’s like every person’s locked in their house, but this isn’t real. It’s like,

Mark:

yeah.

Justin:

Real or not, it’s pretty real.

Mark:

And there again Some of that would some of even the, you know, the aspects of the pandemic, you know, or it it came down to who was affected? How close was the person that died that died, you know, with COVID? How close how many How close a proximity were those people to me? You know, because granted the the news would put the big names out there, but At the same time, you know, there the people that had close friends who, you know, were on ventilators and and were gone shortly thereafter. It’s like Yeah, this is a real deal. Others who said who might have experienced, nah, nothing. I don’t know anybody. All my family’s okay.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

That’s a tremendous difference. And I think that is a part of it. It’s like when the truth is hard to determine, I think there is more tendency towards the polarization.

Justin:

Yep.

Mark:

And I think it you know kind of back to our mission to a certain degree, it’s those it’s the facets of okay, where did you get vaxxed? Did you not get vaxxed? It’s that facet. that tends to lead to the polarization. Oh well, you know, you got vaxxed. You’re you don’t care about your UR. Yeah. Exactly. And you’re not vexed, well, you’re gonna you’re gonna kill you’re gonna be the one that’s responsible for my grandmother’s death because I’m interacting with you. And you know, and and that’s where that polarizing, you know, thoughts come from. And it’s just uh Yeah, when there is that inability to disc easily discern the truth.

Justin:

The thing is, it’s not I think you know the news is a big part of that, right?

Mark:

Sure.

Justin:

Now we have Yeah F so I don’t think the ideal is to go back to the news all shaking hands and saying, Yeah, this is what we’re gonna say and so we’re all like on this one agenda. I don’t think that’s better. I think what’s better is to do what we’re d trying to do here, which is move through this stage where now that says, Oh, you mean there’s eighteen thousand viewpoints? Well how are we supposed to deal well, we’re supposed to be kind. Supposed to listen. We’re supposed to empathize. We’re supposed to think I wonder if there’s some way in my mind I can envision going to the level that Osama bin Laden did like you were just describing. What would it take in thinking through that? And going other versus going, no, I would never do that because I’m an American patriot. It’s like, no, even that ideology. There’s something to that that’s you know I don’t know you get what I’m saying. Um but the work that it takes to kind of walk to the other side and then walk back if you want to, but at least take a look around, you know And uh recognizing, oh, the people over there are kinda like me. And the things they care about is kinda like the things I care about. They’re just pointing a different direction. Right.

Mark:

And I and I think as you were sharing even that, you know, it does bring up the point that yes, even in the midst of having the conversation or the discourse to a certain degree, I can still be hurt. I don’t have control over that. You know, I’m not saying, you know, we should we should not have the conversations, but just having a conversation doesn’t make the difference necessarily go away. But as I get to know someone at a different level, there is still a greater opportunity to accept that individual. you know, for for who they are and what they see and and yet that person can still choose to hurt me.

Justin:

Yeah.

Mark:

And I, you know, and and I so I think, you know Yes, I I think it it kind of comes back to that even, you know, that governmental dynamic of, you know, well, we need to have more negotiation. You know, negotiation isn’t necessarily gonna solve everything. That’s that’s my take. I mean, even in the process of the passion I have for this, eventually we have to make a decision, okay, how am I gonna move forward? And are we going to be able to say, okay, yes, we’re going to choose to dis agree to disagree on this, even though I know where you stand and I respect who you are. I’m gonna choose not to be vaccinated, or I’m gonna choose to wear the mask, or I’m gonna choose to move forward. And granted, that’s not the same as the, you know, the 9-11 scale, but I think, you know. It recognizes that I can’t always be in control, which I think is a healthy thing for me to recognize as well. So yeah, I appreciate your uh your willingness to enter into the discussion on uh

Justin:

never forget, right?

Mark:

Never forget. Yeah. So hopefully, you know, we’ve been able to share some truths that will never be forgotten, but even if it is, that’s okay too.

Justin:

Someone’s smarter will say I’m veteran.

Mark:

Yeah.

Justin:

In the future.

Mark:

No doubt. No doubt. If not tomorrow.

Justin:

That’s okay. That’s how we see it.

Mark:

That’s how we see it.

Justin:

Hey, thank you for listening to our podcast. If you like how I see it, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. subscribe, rate, review, follow us and or talk nicely about us on social media If you want to reach out, the email is us at howiseeit.click. Yep, I said dot click. As in dot C-L-I-C-K Please tell your friends about this show, and we’ll see you on the next one.