0:05
morning Justin good morning Mark how are you I'm well yeah I'm glad to hear that

0:12
I'm glad to hear that how are you I am also well thank you yes

0:19
indeed so you got a surprise topic for us n it's not really a surprise I don't

0:24
think it's a surprise well it might be for you cuz if you don't know might be but I

0:30
I if you didn't know it genuinely be a surprise that's correct we should do that sometime we we just put them in a

0:37
hat just put some topics in a hat and just pull out or get maybe we get some listener submitted topics oh yeah to

0:44
like yeah somewhere and then we pull that out of a hat that would be fun that

0:49
would be a surprise that would be a surprise that would be a genuine surprise yeah I would enjoy that yes it would and it's funny when I talk with

0:56
people I get I get lots of lots of yeah topics suggestions yeah I do and I was

1:02
but as I was saying we need a suggestion box oh you know get it on that yeah

1:10
yeah but it's interesting as I was thinking about topics it's like uh there's a there's a part of me

1:17
well I have a a feeling okay and it's even a thought that in some

1:25
ways I'm thinking we may be abdicating some of our respons

1:31
abilities lately we've kind of been doing a little soft serve if you will

1:36
you follow me and I was curious what your take would be on politics in

1:44
[Music] general welcome to how I see it with me

1:53
Mark pra and Justin Sternberg this is a podcast that works to countercultural

2:00
polarization through thoughtful [Music]

2:07
conversations because I think a lot has happened since we've started the podcast

2:14
on a on a political scene that we haven't necessarily discussed and I

2:19
think for me personally I've uh I've sensed that you know maybe that if we're

2:26
if we're want to be modeling the ability to talk about

2:32
polarizing topics that has to be one yeah and that that was just a sense that

2:38
I brought this morning and you know through the evening as I've been thinking about this it's like okay we've

2:44
got you know January 6 committee we've got roie Wade you know we've got you

2:51
know variant and all those things that have kind of happened since we've

2:58
started the podcast and I think you know I'm not saying

3:03
politics drives all those things and I think we need to be able to separate the difference between you know government

3:10
politics but I think they're also connected so I'm curious I'm curious what your take is

3:19
you okay what your take is on politics in

3:24
general and then I'm okay to go to some of the more specific Dynamics of you

3:31
know things that have transpired since on a political realm and I'm just curious what your political

3:38
views would be if you had to describe them well that I'm glad you bring this

3:43
up just cuz yeah I think for me a big Genesis for this podcast for me was

3:51
politics agreed you know what was the whole uh president Trump you know race

3:58
and kind of the polariz ing are you a trumpy

4:05
right no I just wanted to make America great again wait wait is that the bad

4:11
thing to say I don't know yeah yeah yeah it was cuz you can say a name I'm don't

4:19
mean to interrupt but in our in our culture right now you can say a name you

4:25
can say Trump you can say Biden and suddenly there's a defensiveness at times you can feel in a situation yeah

4:33
and I think depending on how you say that name whether you use like an angry tone or a critical tone or a positive

4:41
tone like it's just that can send you in a polarized pocket you know based on

4:46
who's listening to you yes and it's like you're never getting out of that jail of you support that person or you don't and

4:53
yes yeah it's wow yeah um I'll I'll say this to be 100 % honest and truthful

5:01
about the topic mhm I don't pay attention to politics much anymore okay in that a large that was largely due to

5:09
that that last those last couple races where I just I ran out of energy for it

5:15
for for hearing it all for trying to figure out who's the villain and who's the hero you know and it didn't

5:24
seem possible to me to find let me put it this way it didn't

5:31
seem that there was a source of truth that could be

5:36
trusted a credible Source because right because they each source

5:43
that I know of okay from how I see it yeah yeah is you know fundamentally

5:50
geared to push or support One Direction or another yeah based on funding based

5:56
on whatever fundamental beliefs uh because we we are so polarized as people we naturally gravitate towards

6:02
institutions that support you know the the side that we support etc etc you

6:08
know and so if if you're if you grow up in you know let's say the Northeast and

6:14
I whatever a liberal type family and you know you you want to go to educ get some

6:20
education you're going to head towards an Ivy League school you're going to head towards certain ones like uh I want

6:26
to say Berkeley I want to say whatever right different ones that that um are very specifically liberal because they

6:32
are the right people right they have the right ideas and then once you get out of that you're going to go work for a publication right that's on that that

6:40
side of things and that's we just have such a perfectly geared system in America to to just find

6:49
your you know either your left or your right side and stay in that track the rest of your life so it's a continuation

6:55
of the polarizing perspective that we're that that that that gen that you referred to mhm and it doesn't seem to

7:04
necessarily get better right with time right and I I grew up Republican um that

7:11
was my family that was kind of like that's you know and there's so many

7:17
values and ideals on the Republican sign that I agree with and um conservativism

7:23
is a big example but even that you know has a very um polarizing you know every

7:30
term that's been used to describe as a good thing on one side the other side is

7:35
try to rub it in the mud at one we another so like conservativism represents bigotry represents whatever

7:42
hating gay people right like if I agree with the principle of conservativism

7:47
then I must hate gay people and you're some kind of phobe yeah yep phobe yeah

7:53
exactly um but then what I found as I've gotten older and as I've UND stood and

8:00
heard more of the other side that there's some stuff on that side I agree with too but I'm not allowed to right

8:07
it's like you got to stick to your lane you know I don't know and it just became

8:12
more and more confusing to me that not confusing disheartening that

8:20
there isn't a way to vote

8:27
like basically you're told if you vote what you believe in it doesn't matter

8:32
because it you know like if you vote independent for instance okay it doesn't matter because you're just throwing your

8:38
vot vote away and everyone that's like for instance on the side whatever

8:43
they're like you're throwing your vote away you need to vote on our side so that we don't lose really matters yeah

8:49
because somebody's going to win and somebody's going to lose Y and it's not going to be your guy yeah you so that's

8:56
kind I mean that's a quick overview of just some of my disenfranchisement with politics in

9:02
general uh but specific topics I'm happy to talk

9:08
about well um and I'm and I guess that's a part of it you know when I think about

9:14
it if you're willing to admit and and I'm and I'm willing to admit that same

9:21
thing regarding a disenfranchisement MH

9:27
with politics and I think you know there is this this distancing if you

9:34
will and and and I think that's sad in my perspective that you know it's

9:41
and I and I as I was kind of tending to think about it a little bit it's almost

9:47
like um I see it in some ways like people who I I would say it's a older

9:54
version of how people used to view pastors or the church it's like we hire

10:00
this individual to be the pastor and you know

10:06
and lead the church and then but that person's just kind of over there and

10:12
they're not necessarily A Part I'm not saying that's accurate I'm not saying that's the way it should be but I think

10:18
that's how I tend to view politics in other words we elect these politicians they go to Washington or and I'm not

10:25
saying there isn't important and I I think it's the the neat part for me is I'm more connected to local politics to

10:32
a certain degree but when it gets to a you know a national level it's like DC

10:39
that kind of thing and it's and I can understand maybe some of the

10:45
frustrations because it does seem as if government or politics are removed from

10:52
the average individual as I see myself you follow me and and and I think that's

10:57
a sad thing I don't think that's any I don't think that's the way our forefathers intended it to be right you

11:03
know that they're and and granted here again we can bring that a church model to it you know it's almost like a mega

11:10
church type dynamic as a as a you know we can look back and say yeah the forefathers intended it to be this way

11:17
and yet the United States is so much bigger now and government is so much bigger

11:24
than I think our forefathers intended it to be and I think in some ways that leads to that disconnect that we

11:32
describe and especially when it gets more and more polarizing and I and I think that's where I was coming back to

11:39
I'm not sure that I I'm going to speak for myself

11:45
should be distancing myself from it from politics in some

11:52
ways even though that's my sense MH you follow me from a from a character

11:58
standpoint point because I'm I'm in I'm recognizing that that's a part of my

12:03
tendency as well is to say okay it really doesn't matter but I think it

12:10
does matter so how do I actually engage the

12:16
process in a way that seems to matter yeah you follow me in

12:22
that yeah so the idea is that you're maybe

12:28
not quite comfortable with the position that you've yeah been Fading Into of like kind of um abdicating

12:36
responsibility from my perspective yeah that's a strong how I see it right there

12:41
it is abate yeah um yeah no I get that I

12:47
think yeah I have lots of thoughts about that I I think for me personally I've

12:52
started to understand my responsibility to be um

13:00
yeah again how I see it my perspective has been all of the thing the energy and

13:06
time I spent in politics was wasted for me because the points I was trying to

13:13
make or the you know the the the agendas I was trying to drive were met with derision or whatever because the people

13:20
who are on my side they didn't need to hear that and they weren't you know going to jump on whatever and the people who you know I thought needed to hear it

13:28
would simply met it with like oh my goodness let me share how wrong you are you know and it was like wait what am I

13:34
doing here like what am I trying to prove what am I trying to push for and for what like that we're simply I'm

13:42
simply getting into a place where I'm creating arguments and that's yeah

13:47
that's not something I'm interested in and this is this is has to do with my way of doing what I was doing I'm not

13:53
saying what I was doing is right you know social media all that stuff right okay I hear you now I understand where

13:58
you're coming from and I recognize like you know what my responsibility is to my family to the people I lead here and

14:07
what I can do is train up my children way they should go so when they get old they don't depart from it and the people

14:13
that I meet with on a regular basis in terms of accountability or sponsorship those kinds I can work with them in

14:20
their families and their you know in the I can work in the micro sure and trust

14:25
that they this will bleed out into the macro like I he TR you know basically trust God to use whatever I'm doing here

14:32
to mean something Beyond right here MH does that make sense it does and and I and I think about it and as as you were

14:41
sharing I think for a long time well probably more more till recently I think

14:49
my view of government if you will politics that kind of thing was that it

14:55
is this dinosaur mhm of sorts that basically every four years there's

15:02
a you know an election and by the time that that four years possibly eight

15:10
years is up there really this dinosaur hasn't necessarily been able to move

15:17
that far that quickly in that four or eight years you follow me to where it's

15:24
still kind of heading in the same general direction maybe a little shift this way but ultimately that will shift

15:31
back you know or shift to a certain degree and I think you know more so

15:38
recently you know I've seen you know and I'll I'll just say you know with the you

15:43
know executive privilege you know and decisions being made you know at a

15:49
certain level as I see it I think my concern that the dinosaur is turning

15:57
quicker because it's not necessarily as governmentally driven you follow me from

16:04
a from a from a political sides perspective a

16:10
balancing and a check and balance yeah I see that process as

16:15
being short circuited to a certain degree and that concerns me and then I think about it from that aspect of okay

16:22
how does today or what do are the decisions what decisions of today are

16:30
going to have a greater impact on my children and my children's children to

16:35
that degree and I think that's a little more of where my personal you know

16:43
desire to be a little more involved to be a little more aware is coming from

16:50
because I think there is this kicking the can type mentality that gets to a point

16:55
where it just it just rests on my grand children's shoulders and I feel a sense

17:04
ofh it's not obligation but a sense of Duty maybe to be doing things that I can

17:13
today to avoid just kicking the can to my grandchildren tomorrow and them

17:19
saying you know someday this conversation in my mind well what did you do yeah about that yeah you follow

17:27
and and I think that's where the whole thing is coming from for me because I see and it seems as if the Viewpoint of

17:37
the dinosaur I had seems to be changing I it's it's see things seem to be moving

17:45
quicker than what I remember them being and and maybe that's just a process of Aging for me you follow me in that in

17:52
that sense and so yeah and maybe even just that um that sense of Duty you know

17:58
know I think about it more from a generational standpoint than I probably ever did before mhm but I think you know

18:06
as you mentioned you know the impact I have I don't want to necessarily be

18:13
abdicating my responsibility on a larger level if I have yeah and I and I think

18:20
you know we can we can get to that point where we look at government as being so

18:25
big that you know we don't have responsib you know not not

18:31
responsibility we have responsibility but we don't

18:37
have and control isn't the right word I'm just looking yeah that's how I feel

18:42
yeah I feel like I think and that's and in in some cases I think that's how many

18:48
people feel I don't think we're you know you and I are alone in that MH I think

18:54
there is that sense of well I would do something but I don't think it would make a

19:01
difference yeah I I would love to know from you as you know as you feel like

19:08
you want to take back this responsibility versus abdicating what are some of the things that you think

19:14
you can and should do to help with that and and I'll just clarify my earlier statements I I certainly don't think my

19:20
position I don't want I hope not everyone in the world you know takes that position or we won't have any yeah

19:26
you know yeah I think think there are people who are meant to be in the space they meant to be doing it and I just

19:33
felt like you know what I don't think I'm one of those people and that's okay yeah um but that being said I love the

19:41
idea of someone like a mark being in that space I'm serious like in in uh I

19:47
think of some of our local politicians we had J Jason disbro on and just hearing his heart I'm like yes I'm glad

19:53
this guy's around doing what he does and I'm glad he's not like me and I'm glad

19:59
he he got into it he he got passionate he got involved and he has the ability

20:04
he has some power to make some changes that is just I'm so so thankful that

20:10
there are many many people like that in the world um because there also is to

20:16
balance that there is a contingency of people who are in it for the ambitious

20:22
side and you know no I don't know any of them personally so obviously I'm it's

20:27
easy to kind of Sling that say I think this is what it is and just dirty politicians everywhere but right um at

20:34
the same time you know that there is a certainly a portion of politicians right and left who are in it for the wrong

20:41
reasons or or maybe like any yeah any occupation yes yes so I guess my point

20:47
is I want there to be a balance to that with people who have that Integrity

20:52
people who may don't have share all my same viewpoints but as a whole I think

20:58
I'm glad this person's doing what they're doing you know yeah I agree wred

21:03
way well no I think I appreciate that because I never want it to come across

21:09
that I don't want it to come across that I'm scared that I'm fearful I mean yes

21:15
I'll have I have concerns you know that our tendency as humans is to say okay we

21:23
we don't need God and we want to

21:29
eradicate you know him from everything government even though our our you know

21:35
mots are in God we trust type thing so I just want to recognize I'm not necessar I'm not fearful this is a personal thing

21:43
for me that I think I'm I'm wrestling with how do I you know assert yeah if

21:51
you will I don't have to become aggressive but I probably I'm recognizing that I shouldn't just be

21:57
passive either so again what are some of those ways and is this podcast one of those ways that

22:03
this podcast is definitely one of those ways for me and I think you know I am I

22:08
and I understand where you're coming from um on the sources how do we find

22:16
credible sources you know to understand what is true what is and I also agree that there

22:23
there are people who are passionate about politics and they are you know

22:31
representing you know me you all of us well you know in that in that sense they

22:39
are doing a great job at you know being congressman and representatives and that

22:45
kind of thing and I I and I would dare say even people

22:51
who may have differing views than I do are still doing a great job at what they

22:58
were elected to do yeah and I think that's that's the beauty of America from

23:04
my perspective yeah is it's not perfect but it certainly is the the first runner

23:11
what I yeah I mean I I love the I think it was Benjamin Franklin's quote is

23:16
which is you know democracy is the worst government in all the world except for all the other ones exactly right yeah

23:23
it's proven to be you know in our experience as Americans to be absolutely true it is the worst one except for all

23:30
the others and we benefited from it being the best of the worst yeah but also we we there's we see the cracks we

23:37
see the you know dinosaur footprints we see you know the guy at the head of the dinosaur yanking it left and right we

23:43
see all these things right U but at the same time that'd be good one of those good little edit editorial carto New

23:50
Yorker cartoon I don't know New Yorker yeah different people on the head of the

23:56
dinosaur kind of pulling out the ears weighing weighing it off yeah yeah yeah that'd be a good little uh yeah sorry I

24:03
didn't mean to digress but I did I like to see you draw that cartoon yeah well I I'm not the person it'll be in the show

24:09
that's exactly that's not my uh my ability not how you're going to start working on

24:15
this that's right and I app but I appreciate that what you shared to the

24:20
fact that you know we have our areas you're great Justin you know

24:28
you're not you're not Mark and I'm I'm a good Mark but I'm not Justin so I think

24:35
we there is something to be said for okay what do what what am I personally

24:41
responsible for and if and if that is for you if

24:46
that is you know to enter into politics you know then then you got my support

24:53
but at the same time I am wrestling with you know short of my

24:59
Duty I I there again um to vote I think you know that voting does matter there's

25:05
no doubt about it and we can you know and I think there are you know yeah we can hear the Matas

25:13
that say well your vote doesn't count that kind of thing and I think that's a defeatist way I'm about to sneeze Justin

25:20
do it we are not going to edit that out

25:26
okay that's okay there might be a couple more that follow but I think I'm good I think I'm good now you know politics do

25:33
you do what you got I'm allergic I'm allergic I hear that but it's it's not

25:40
something I hear you I I heard that I heard that so yes that being said that's how I

25:48
see it and I want us to be able to have conversations yes that are able to

25:54
recognize okay yeah how do we deal with certain topics and I and I think some of

26:01
it I I like the point you bring up in that in that context

26:08
of feeling defensive you know when certain names

26:14
when certain topics are brought up and I and I do think from my perspective you

26:21
know that's the part that I want to start working on for me personally is

26:26
when I'm facing with that M when that comes up I'll typically say help me

26:33
understand that yeah what what is it if I understand you correctly you have a

26:38
desire to work on the impulse of feeling defensive with certain topics or names

26:44
or what do you is that what you're saying yeah and it was interesting and I um I might have even said this you know

26:51
ear because it it was um I have a i I would say it's a gift

27:00
okay I have a gift to remember things for a long time okay sometimes maybe too

27:07
long but I I I definitely try to keep short accounts in that in that sense of

27:14
forgiveness and that kind of thing but um I do have the ability to remember

27:21
conversations for a long time and I I did happen to have a I remember a lady

27:28
that I was talking with in her home you know she was talking about voting straight party ticket okay and it

27:35
happened to be at the time that you know uh Jason disbro was running for his

27:42
office and um I can remember being in their home and she said you know um yeah

27:50
I just voted straight party ticket because I couldn't vote under the the Trump Administration

27:57
I'm just putting that out there under the Trump Administration she could not bring herself to vote for a republican

28:04
yeah okay and I'm not saying I agree with that perspective but I recognize

28:10
that's how that's where she was that's how she saw it yeah exactly she her in

28:16
half the country yeah 30% let's do a poll exactly but at the

28:22
same time I can remember that conversation you know yeah and it it

28:27
happened happened to come up that you know we were talking about that we were doing a podcast and all of a sudden in

28:35
the back of my mind I'm reminded of her voting and I said um if you don't mind I

28:44
said I just I can remember a time when we talked about politics and I I I have built a relationship with this

28:50
individual you know to the point of being able to say I can uh remember a

28:55
time when you did not Vote or you voted straight ticket you know be and be you

29:02
you said you didn't know the individual so you just stayed with the party line

29:08
which I understood if we don't know someone right why why would so but it

29:13
just so happened that I can remember we had Jason on and at that point that

29:19
podcast had released and it was an interesting thing for me because having

29:24
had that conversation I was able to say yeah and so here's this individual I'm

29:29
not saying you have to listen to our podcast but if there's a desire for you

29:36
to get to know him yeah and hear his heart so you do know him here's an

29:42
opportunity to do so yeah and for me that was a that was an opportunity that

29:47
I felt led to right because i' had and and I think that's the thing I want to be starting

29:54
to engage this polarization wherever I see it and I think that's that's what

30:01
even brings up the topic because I I don't I think in some ways you know we

30:06
have to you and I have to be able to talk about politics yes may we still have some alignment well likely so but

30:13
at the same time I think we have to be aware that when other

30:18
people and I'm not saying that in a judgmental sense but when we we recognize a polarity we have to be able

30:25
to kind of walk into that yeah and even even to a certain degree check who I

30:33
am because I don't I don't think it's always about win and lose and I think some of it is about the

30:41
ability to have the conversation in a way that creates understanding because I

30:46
think in some cases we are at a point where everybody has a talking point and

30:53
those talking points tend to be polarizing you know and I think it's a

30:58
it's a matter of understanding and getting to know and and granted are we going to change people no because I

31:05
don't think that should be our intent I think our our intent should be

31:10
to know and try to understand and I think that's I think there like you were

31:16
saying about the influence we have on our children I think that is a powerful

31:21
thing as well when we desire to know someone and they understand that that is

31:28
our that is our intent is to know versus to try and change I think that's that's

31:35
a that's an important difference yeah that's good yeah I

31:41
man it's just so many thoughts you know well go with it that the last one that

31:47
came into my mind uh is just thinking about Jesus and

31:52
his ministry his three years here he didn't have time for politics he had time for he he was very f right for

31:59
obvious reasons and um he didn't have time for

32:05
politics okay that's that's my how I see it I see I see I'd love to hear your perspective on that but for me he was

32:12
about his kingdom he was about building his kingdom not about and so when they would come to him with questions about

32:19
politics he would answer them in such a way that they quote unquote marveled at

32:25
his uh I forget what the word was teaching basically teach he taught wow I

32:30
can't answer I can't respond back to that so good and they they're like what do you do about taxes we're in an

32:36
occupied country you know and and we're we're occupied people and we're you know in some ways violently occupied and what

32:43
are we supposed to do about that and he said well bring me a coin you see that picture this this it's got a picture of

32:49
Caesar say so so give to Caesar what Caesars and give you know God what God or whatever and it was just to

32:59
me that's essentially how I that version of Jesus the how I see it of Jesus is

33:05
how I want to be personally it doesn't mean that's how I want my kids to be although I also recognize how that works

33:11
right that what you model and all that but there there's there are answers for

33:17
politics that are about his kingdom sure and and so those are the answers that I

33:22
want to be about and it's much easier for me to hold to that part line right

33:29
the kingdom yeah uh it's much easier for me to put the perspective of United

33:36
States politics put that into perspective when I'm thinking about a kingdom that supersedes that does that

33:42
make sense and so then the parties don't matter because what matters is truth and

33:47
you know righteousness and in some cases you know uh this part is going to do

33:53
what I think is right in some cases this party is right and

33:58
yeah and so that being said I still I would still wrestle yeah with that whole

34:05
Kingdom Dynamic you know and and you're fully aware you know when we think of the

34:11
Lord's Prayer your kingdom come yeah and I would see that in those three parts

34:17
his kingdom in my life he gets to rule and operate in my personal life and

34:24
therefore I do what he asked me to do on a daily basis whether that is politics

34:31
whether that's being involved in politics whether that's not being involved in politics you know that's for

34:36
me personally and and you know part of his kingdom is his ability to reign in my life and yet I also see that from the

34:44
you know the Evangelistic side that we can bring Kingdom to Earth you know we

34:51
are to you know as we live out you know his kingdom we bring his kingdom here

34:57
and yet he also has the Eternal Kingdom Heaven that he rules over where you know

35:04
everybody is saying holy holy holy so I I guess I see that and I'm recognizing

35:09
that more so that governmental part is the second part where I'm still a part

35:18
of sharing truth sharing having relationship and I guess that's where I

35:24
when you said uh Jesus wasn't involved in politics I think he was but it wasn't

35:30
it didn't consume him and I I think we're probably still saying the same thing he was very

35:36
much yes um not engross but uh you know

35:41
embedded embedded in a political Dynamic you follow me and I think I think that's

35:47
the the beauty of history when we look back to be able to recognize the politics of the time that influenced the

35:55
circumstance and I think that's where I'm coming from is I want to be about the things that God is personally

36:02
calling me to on a national you know personal local level

36:11
and and granted yes as it gets bigger I probably have less power but at at the

36:17
same time I don't want to be abdicating that responsibility I want to be engaging it in a way that I feel is God

36:26
L yeah I to go back to the practicals of you

36:31
know how that's going to play out yeah I personally like the idea you know of this podcast being a part of that and I

36:38
think for me that is a way to uh well two things number one help

36:43
you honor your responsibility even if you don't carry even if you don't have that same

36:49
responsibility that's okay yes I'm not saying I don't but I am but but that but also that it is an opportunity for me

36:57
you know for my perspective in that conversation and I think that balances

37:02
hopefully why people listen here right is hopefully beyond my ability to

37:08
understand yeah um because it's not I am not about avoiding the conversations or

37:14
avoiding the topics it's just that for me yeah yeah I certainly don't it feels

37:23
embarrassing to say I'm trying to be like Jesus and not you know like that's why I'm avoiding politics that's

37:29
not what I mean I just feel like for me the way I see Jesus and the way the

37:35
version of his his ministry here and what he was about I can get behind it's

37:42
much easier for me to to embrace that sure what's really difficult for me is

37:47
when I have a conversation with a good friend and they say have you heard about and it's a you know political topic and

37:54
I'm like no tell me about it well this is Happ and then this happened and then

37:59
this and it's like I instantly go

38:04
I I don't believe them why because they're they're they're quoting a source

38:10
that I don't know and I don't believe because I don't there's there's just that whole world is so

38:17
muddy and finding truth in that world is so impossible to me sure how I see it and

38:24
it's like you know I don't we can have conversation at the same time I'm not

38:31
necessarily going to believe everything you're saying not because I don't believe you but but I don't know that I believe your sources or their sources or

38:38
their sources yeah and they're going to be like no you don't understand it's written right here

38:44
you can see proof here's some pictures I'm like okay that's happened so many times in my life in this world of

38:51
politics to where then the other side shows me the same pictures the same

38:56
whatever but it's proving the other side and I go oh crap yeah oh crap we're in

39:02
trouble you know like and that's where people disengage yeah is that not where

39:07
you tend to disengage the process absolutely because it's how how am I to know and yeah oh it's so frustrating

39:16
yeah so frustrating what if I may if I may not to digress but to continue the

39:22
conversation what would be one of those topics that tends to

39:27
well one example is the the border and the the the families detained at the

39:33
border oh sure I mean those things I don't know what's truth in all

39:39
of that but what I know is I hate the idea of us taking families and tearing

39:45
them apart and holding some parts of the family and ridiculously stupid holding

39:51
areas MH no matter what that looks like to me that's wrong and

39:58
I've heard so many versions of well you know they're villains here's why like this is a child I don't think so like

40:05
come on what do you have to do to get to the point where you're this you have to

40:10
villainize children in order to agree with what's happening does that make sense at the same time I know that there

40:18
there was some illegal AC I know they're trying to cross I'm like well you know

40:23
if if I was in their shoes that'd probably be me iar you I'm probably trying to cross you would grab a child

40:30
no no no no sorry oh I'm I'm not that's a good good thing you're clarifying here cu no I'm saying i' grab a child and

40:38
born in Mexico okay and my hope is gone for my country and I see this land of

40:45
opportunity and I see a chance just a glimmer of a chance that my kids can grow up in that opportunity and maybe I

40:53
maybe maybe time's running out for me and maybe I'll just be a Construction in construction and that's

40:59
fine I can do that but just the idea that my kids maybe can have some of that hope some of that get some of that

41:06
goodness you know mhm well maybe I'm going to try and cross the border illegally and you're going to villainize

41:11
me and it's okay because it's worth it for what the opportunities that maybe my kids can have right or maybe and I'm I'm

41:19
not saying this is right but maybe I bring some you know drug whatever uh payload with me because

41:27
that's my way that's that's that's what the cartel said I had to do to get across and I said I might go to hell for

41:33
this but my kids the opportunity for my kids again I'm not saying uh hopefully I wouldn't do that folks I just want you

41:40
to know there's a lot of passion in Justin's eyes when he as he saying this you can definitely just say we so

41:45
quickly turn our brains off to that perspective the complexity yeah the

41:52
complexity and just say these are bad people trying to get into our you know

41:58
perfectly manicured garden and when they come over here they mess it up and I'm like yeah but maybe maybe there's truth

42:04
to that and I'm not saying there's not and I'm I've heard all growing up how

42:10
you know the people coming across the border basically taking jobs from Farm

42:15
you know Farmers or whatever they they low they cut they low ball the the the

42:21
the workers right so they come in they get all the construction jobs the painting jobs whatever because they're willing to work at a rate that were not

42:27
mhm and I've been hearing that since I as early as I can remember right and I

42:33
see it I see that they're they are taking those jobs they have those jobs um but I've been alive for almost 40

42:40
years and it it seems like we're doing okay despite that seems like we just figure it out we adjust and of course

42:47
there's maybe someone listening goes no my I lost my job because of that it definitely impacted me and I'm angry

42:54
about it and I go yeah that sucks you like 's a story there too and I'm not saying that but we so quickly just want

43:00
to say it's either that story or it's this story they can't both be true you know yeah I hear you and I'm not saying

43:08
that because I don't agree I'm saying that in the sense of there is a complexity yeah and to say it's as

43:16
simple as a wall wall may be beneficial but at the same time I think I think a wall can be

43:24
beneficial in the sense of the people in that geographic location

43:33
are definitely being impacted MH you follow me when when you're when you're

43:38
in the states to be clear I'm not even necessarily talking about the wall as much as

43:44
immigration I don't know what I'm talking about let's yeah I mean it started with the

43:51
actual that conversation several years ago where they were putting kids you know separating kids holding them and

43:57
that that that's what really just got to me yeah and and I think at that time but

44:03
I'm not opposed to a wall and I'm not opposed to like that's that's an interesting topic of conversation but

44:10
it's like well in order to support the wall I have to villainize these children yeah I'm here I'm like come on do we

44:16
have to do that yeah can we not agree that this is terrible and we also need it w no I'm I'm hearing where you're

44:24
coming from and I think that's the part that gives me your your passion actually

44:33
helps motivate my passion in that sense of yes it's more complex than we want to

44:41
admit so how do we you know get real

44:46
solutions in place not Antiquated talking points yeah that basically you

44:52
know Guantanamo Bay and all that stuff you know that because in some cases yes

44:58
those things have been around a long time so if we're talking about an Antiquated system then we need to

45:06
recognize yes we need to do something different and I think sometimes our

45:12
tendency is to well it was good enough for then what makes it different than it

45:18
needs to be now and I and I think you know there's a lot of complexities to that it's like does a wall answer it no

45:25
but I also recogniz like I was saying you know if I'm living in the United States and I'm fearful for my family you

45:34
know based on that villainization right you know I'm understanding that

45:40
perspective cuz if I'm if I'm living in North Carolina New York State Michigan

45:47
whatever what's the big deal MH you follow me what's the big deal you know

45:54
so a few people are coming across well coming across in my yard yeah so that

45:59
that of course makes a difference yep and so I'm willing to hear that and I and I think that becomes part of the

46:06
process is to be able to say okay and and to to kind of walk through

46:12
that where you know to say villains and grabbing kids okay on the other side of

46:17
that is the the equation of okay is there a process and is the process working and is it expedient does it have

46:24
to be expedient right you follow is is it effective and I think you know those

46:30
become the difficult Dynamics is there a process versus this you know hole in

46:36
thewall type perspective that we just turn a eye away and you know what

46:43
happens happens and I and I and here again we're talking about a complex

46:49
Dynamic and I appreciate the ability to do so and what happens for

46:55
meh when you diving into the complexity of Any Given topic this is just one very

47:02
zoomed in topic on one t that we could address right and there's so many branches to that

47:09
conversation sure that my brain starts to Short Circuit it starts cuz it's like okay we're we're

47:17
digging and it's just getting more and more complex in this one thing and now we got to have all these other

47:22
conversations and fight the tide there MH of polarization and I just start a

47:28
short circuit I'm like I don't have time for this this is stressful this is

47:33
brings me anxiety it's like there's there's no way we can solve all these problems yeah you know and and I see

47:40
that's that that is a difference that is a difference between us I feel myself getting more passionate and excited and

47:48
I am and I I'll admit there's a naivity in that but yet there's also a passion in

47:54
that that says okay we got to be talk having these conversations in such a way that says

48:01
okay if this isn't working what what do we need to do and just because somebody

48:08
has an IDE a new idea or a different idea doesn't make it well that's dumb

48:15
right and I think that can be our tendency where change is concerned makes me think of our chesterton's fence

48:21
episode where sure the fence may need to move yes right and it's worth

48:27
considering but it and but we have to know why it's there right yes or why there's a purpose in

48:35
constructing a fence yep if we're going to right and what do we desire to

48:42
accomplish and and how do we create a process that recognizes people will be

48:51
impacted Yeah by this fence yeah and and

48:56
and that you know from an immigration standpoint there's a lot of quite a parallel there but at the

49:04
same time wow at at the same time we said at the same time we did

49:11
U I said Duty wants to but that's all right too okay uh our duty yeah yeah go

49:18
ahead that's an inside joke in our family maybe yeah not so much in ours yeah I'm going to pretend you didn't

49:24
just make a poop joke politics Bo rep hey if the shoe fits you

49:33
I'm not I'm not trying to digress but I'm just thinking about the fence thing and like and politics in general and

49:39
kind of the the lowest common denominator thing

49:45
that can kind of happen sometimes where well this side wants a fence this side doesn't this side wants a tall fence

49:51
this side wants a short fence so we we end up with a fence that has some tall Parts some short parts missing parts and

49:57
we go there we did it and it's completely ineffective and it took so many resources right and it took so much

50:05
time and it took so many people's Focus away from important things to arrive at

50:11
something that's useless right or maybe this this this twot span yeah rabbit's not going to get

50:18
through there but it just has to walk you know 10 ft that way or whatever you know what I'm saying where it's like we end up with Solutions sometimes that are

50:25
watered down M and don't solve the problem but they allow politics to you

50:31
know politicians to say look I did my job I promised you a fence here's your fence and and they can Now operate in

50:38
that me like I can't help the fact that you know there's parts missing that's because of this bad guy but I did my part see there's there's clearly a board

50:45
here standing and it's a lone board I got you yeah it's like I did my job you

50:51
know um and it's just so easy to I mean

50:57
yeah we've all seen political commercials right they're ridiculous they're

51:02
ridiculous that's a that's a favorite time of year to watch television isn't it no that's my favorite time of year to

51:08
not yeah yeah H yes um you know you're

51:13
so short circuited you're not even catching my sarcasm this morning

51:19
yeah that's okay you're right you're right my brain just starts worring and

51:24
it's like make it stop but I I enjoy these this conversation and will enjoy it it's not about not wanting to have

51:30
the conversation um I think this is probably a good introductory episode to

51:37
the whole concept of kind of where we come from how we see it you know because

51:42
that is a big part that drives me is I don't have the ability to process it all

51:50
the way that I think it should be and and yeah in those conversations my

51:58
desire is to escape them if it looks like we're just going to do talking points because there's just not I don't

52:06
have a desire to ruin our friendship by saying I think you're just quoting a talking point that probably is lacking

52:13
Nuance you know and I guess that's where I come from in this process of and I

52:18
think that's kind of how we started you know it's tell me about how you what your perspective is on politics and I

52:24
think you know yeah yeah it can still become defensive and a heartbeat but yet

52:31
at the same time I think we have to be able to have these conversations and I think yes there will be a certain level

52:38
of futility maybe in some of it some of it but not all of it and the ability to

52:47
have the conversation in the first place is important yeah and I and I guess that

52:53
that's that's where that's that's how I see it mhm in that in that process and I

52:59
and I do think you know um yes what and I'm and I'm just putting

53:04
these ones out there I'm not saying these are topics but you know whether it is you know abortion roie Way Type

53:12
Dynamics whether it is um gun control whether it is taxation you know versus

53:19
you know fair tax that kind of thing you know it's like yeah we need to be able to recognize there's a complexity to

53:26
this mhm and you know and and I think that's our tendency regardless of the topic is

53:34
to go to the polarized Dynamic guns kill people you know that kind of polarized

53:41
thought it's like okay or just do away with how a person sees the Second

53:46
Amendment you know that's those become those becomes the you know what the NRA

53:51
may use you know or you know what the individual who

53:57
it just you know when we don't have a awareness when

54:03
we don't have accurate information I believe our tendency is to go to one

54:08
pole or the other but I think as a person develops an awareness you know

54:14
they're able to find that recognize the complexity okay yeah is abortion is a

54:21
complex Dynamic you know in the sense of yes you know one end abortion in a as a

54:29
definition okay is a child is is is an infant and and people will describe

54:37
Define that life okay differently but yet a life is

54:44
ending that that could have and so that's on one end of a spectrum on the other end is that whole aspect well what

54:51
about the 10-year-old that you know the incest you know those and yes we can

54:56
always talk about that from a sense of um percentages how much you know so what

55:03
is the greater good Dynamic but yet at the same time it's very complex and to be able to have those

55:10
conversations is an important thing and to be and to recognize yes based on my

55:16
circumstance how I grew up what I experienc I'm likely going to align with

55:22
one side or the other so how do we and I think that becomes the more difficult part as

55:29
Government tends to get bigger is it it's it's more difficult to

55:36
recognize the complexity because we just want to have a rule that deals with that

55:43
and I think we've all experienced that process of okay in a in a certain

55:49
business or relationship Dynamic there's typically people that people don't want

55:54
to deal with so the whole group gets addressed so one

56:00
person isn't necessarily singled out or there you know you don't have to deal with that one issue you follow me in

56:08
that and I think that's what complexity is like we still have to be able to address that dynamic in such a way that

56:17
has compassion okay and yet at the same time it's complex and so that that's where that's

56:27
does that does that become an exercise in futility I don't think it always has

56:32
to well I think again that's a big part of this podcast is to say hey there's

56:37
room for conversations let's have them so I'm definitely about it I think I mean man

56:43
you just yeah you hit a several topics that deserve an episode you know yeah

56:49
and um yeah there and we didn't even discuss Trump and Biden yet I mean come

56:56
on now no how did we even talk about politics exactly that yeah yeah

57:04
um uh oh I see the sparks flying again yeah just so many thoughts but again I

57:09
think I think this is a good introductory episode to just talk about talk about talking about it and I I just

57:17
think about certain topics like abortion it's just unbelievable po ble polarized

57:22
to where there's so much anger and vitrio on both sides I feel like there

57:29
are some topics how I see it there are some topics where the right uh what do we

57:36
call it right wing throws more mud than than the left and and they're they're the angrier side and I feel like there

57:43
are some topics where the the right the left throws more mud and is angrier and

57:48
um but abortion I feel like there's anger on both sides and I I happen to

57:54
agree with the rightwing I happen to agree with it's a life I happen to agree with that is a life that we're ending

58:01
and be if if that's how you believe this is the thing that that

58:07
uh frustrates me is that if if you on the other side

58:13
of the fence and you look at me you say if you truly believe that's a life that's ending MH and that you're going

58:20
to be upset about that because it's murder MH right we don't typically just

58:25
have a Blas attitude about murder we typically think it's very wrong just no matter who you are if you look at

58:31
someone said that person killed that person who is innocent and they murdered them we typically are very passionate

58:37
about that's not acceptable mhm and in order to balance that M there's so much

58:45
anger on the it's my body you know and like my rights and all that stuff and it's like there's only one way you can

58:52
balance the that that righteous IND ation is try to come up with some other

58:59
righteous indignation about it's my body it's my rights whatever and don't get me wrong I know

59:05
there are people that I love and respect on that perspective and I want to have

59:11
that conversation with u both both sides of that gotcha um I'm just saying it's

59:17
it we' so quickly vilified the other side and

59:22
often there is some deeply held truths that are at challenge here and so if you

59:29
say you need to stop believing that way and believe my way it's it's like saying for me again how I see it my perspective

59:35
is like saying you need to stop believing murder is wrong and come over to my side and and see that my the

59:43
things that my rights as a person matter yes I agree up until it means murdering

59:50
somebody else right and that's that's a talking point and it gets people so

59:55
fired up when they hear that well you don't you're you're whatever there's talking points on both sides and

1:00:02
exactly uh and again and it's interesting even even just observing you and what and you know and in that

1:00:09
process I'm I'm recognizing you know even a difference

1:00:14
maybe of view where anger's concerned because I don't necessarily

1:00:19
see anger as its own entity I see it as passion mhm you follow me

1:00:26
that there there's a passion behind that and there's a reason why that person feels that way so strongly and they're

1:00:33
willing to speak up about that over most any other thing MH you follow meh and I

1:00:41
think when we're willing to recognize not that we're going to change that person but I think there is something to

1:00:47
be said for recognizing oh wow I see that passion tell me where that passion comes from help me understand that

1:00:55
because I realize we're we're we're probably on different views but I want to understand that passion and granted

1:01:00
there may be a talking point that comes you follow me in that sense of okay yeah

1:01:07
my body 10-year-old child we're going to make them have a baby just because you

1:01:13
follow me and you know so yes that becomes a talking point but it's it's

1:01:19
likely more than that because it might be a personal experience for that person

1:01:24
and I think you know there needs to be a way to address that in such a way that

1:01:30
at least that person by us in that moment is feeling understood MH because

1:01:37
I think when we can do that when we can have that conversation then suddenly

1:01:42
it's not about that one facet that labels you you know

1:01:48
right-wing homophobe H or me you know liberal you

1:01:54
know from the Northeast whatever you know that kind of thing to where there's a point where we're able to say okay and

1:02:00
granted is that is that naive on my part

1:02:05
poana whatever you want to call it yeah maybe to a certain degree but I think we have to be able to have these mature

1:02:13
conversations in such a way that says okay yeah I can see where you're coming from and I understand where your passion

1:02:20
comes from yeah and valid point I think there

1:02:26
yeah I I'm all about all that I think again that's why I enjoy the

1:02:33
conversations with you specifically because I think you can have them in a calm way that says that where I you know

1:02:41
I might you know yeah I might get fired up whatever um I think there are some

1:02:46
topics that will be difficult for us to do justice to because we're just very I

1:02:53
mean abortion is one of those where I think we both feel very strong ly about it being wrong you know

1:02:58
for for reasons and so it's going to be hard to have that conversation in a way that is able to

1:03:05
adequately um describe the polarized viewpoints because from our how we see

1:03:12
it um some of those viewpoints are hard to even swallow it's like I don't you

1:03:17
know what I mean but I do think there are some topics now I'm not even saying that's off the table um although it's a

1:03:25
tough one um but I think there are some topics where we could definitely do you know do it justice

1:03:33
well you know in terms of perspectives and talking about guns I think is one of those because I know like I know you I

1:03:41
know that you and John like shooting the story about the the groundhogs I mean I love that part of

1:03:49
your family at the same time I don't own a gun I've never had a gun I've never gone shooting it's not part of my

1:03:54
culture we're still and we're still can you believe that and

1:03:59
uh I look at things like school shootings and mhm it's just painful that that's

1:04:08
just a normal thing in our country and again this these quotes that

1:04:16
I've heard about like it's worse here than any other place in terms of school shootings I think that's true I believe

1:04:23
that's true maybe it's not you know who knows depending on what sources and all

1:04:28
that again I think that's a topic that we could H totally have a good

1:04:33
conversation about and we still might yeah and I guess I guess my thing

1:04:39
is I don't want us you and I choosing to sidestep those topics yes in such a way

1:04:46
because I because I do believe in my from my perspective that becomes irresponsible to a certain degree and I

1:04:52
and I'm recognizing yes we may have the same point but I think from my perspective it

1:04:58
becomes about modeling how we have difficult conversations and even if that means you and I looking for topics like

1:05:06
gun control where we might be on separate sides of an equation you follow me in that in that sense and and granted

1:05:12
I don't want to blame anyone I want to be able to say okay yeah I understand

1:05:18
where you're coming from and so what do we do and is you know yeah I think

1:05:23
that's a that's a great idea so yes thank you for sharing your political

1:05:29
viewpoints with me this morning Justin it's been a pleasure I got to rewire my

1:05:35
brain now to get back to sanity but you're welcome you are welcome now it's

1:05:40
no thank you for bringing this up and surprise topic yeah well I and I think

1:05:46
that's from my perspective that's how I see it but yeah I also recognize that if

1:05:52
you and I can do it I think you know we're able to recognize okay okay yeah sometimes there's going to be some

1:05:57
surprise topics that come into our Liv and I I I think it was a fun time so know that I appreciate you sharing

1:06:04
that's how I see [Music]

1:06:09
it hey thank you for listening to our podcast if you like how I see it please

1:06:16
do all the things that podcasts tell you to do subscribe rate review follow us uh

1:06:23
and or talk nicely about us on social media if you want to reach out the email

1:06:29
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1:06:40
tell your friends about this show and we'll see you on the next one

1:06:46
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